What if the Indo-European Invasions Never Happened?
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- Опубліковано 4 чер 2024
- / historysinfluence
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#alternatehistory #history #europe #yamnaya #indoeuropean
An alternate history scenario asking what would happen if the Proto Indo-European migrations/invasions never happened, thereby preventing the languages, cultures and civilizations which decended from them to exist. This would impact the root Yamnaya culture, Corded Ware culture, Bronze Age World, Indian history, Early European Farmers and Wester Hunter Gatheres, alongside linguistic groups such as the Celts, Slavs, Greeks, Indo-Aryans, Iranians, and many more.
Videos mentioned:
• Finding the Pre Proto ...
• What if Carthage won t...
Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
1:28 - Horses and Wheels
4:40 - An Unrecognisable Europe
10:30 - An Unbalanced Middle East
13:34 - The Tiger and the Dragon
Music Credits:
"The Pyre" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
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Direct Link:
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Dama-May - Primal Drive by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
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Artist: incompetech.com/
Expeditionary by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
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Artist: incompetech.com/
Ibn Al-Noor by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Source: incompetech.com/music/royalty-...
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Desert City by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
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If the Indo-Europeans had never spread as they did, there is a very strong chance that there would have been greater genetic diversity among males, as several studies have shown a genetic bottleneck between 5000 and 7000 years ago, or 3000 BC to 5000 BC, which is most strong in Europe, and west and south Asia, and much less so in east and southeast Asia. In other words, areas where the Indo-Europeans spread appear to have lost most of their breeding males, and had very few male ancestors during that time period, creating a genetic bottle neck, and which is very different from earlier populations. The span back to 7000 years ago likely represents earlier males within the Caucasian Hunter Gatherers, or early Yamnaya male founders. It is worth nothing that ethnic Han Chinese were also spreading around east and southeast Asia colonizing new farming areas around that time. In African, the Bantu expansion occurred, but I think that was much later, around 2000 to 3000 years ago. If you search for, "Something Weird Happened to Men 7,000 Years Ago, And We Finally Know Why", you can get a popular science article on this, and, "Cultural hitchhiking and competition between patrilineal kin groups explain the post-Neolithic Y-chromosome bottleneck" gives you a study paper.
Interesting to hear, I’d like to give that paper a read. More vaguely I remember hearing early agriculture also acted as a genetic bottleneck for men (like in the Fertile Crescent).
@@HistorysInfluence please make a video on what if Australia was a lush and Green continent? What If the Late Bronze Age Collapse never happened at all?
@@HistorysInfluence I think in this timeline an EEF (early European farmer) Kingdom of Newgrange Builders like Ancient Egypt would have formed en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange with an inbred elite-dominated social structure that could be patrilineal.
@@HistorysInfluence My estimate is that a roman empire would take place faster, but with less influence on mainlands, the centers would be sicyly or crete or cyprus or sardinia or british island, the great powers would be on islands in this scenario and slowly adopt the horse tactics
@@HistorysInfluence without indoeuropeans u will have more naval approaches, the big powers that followed in classic age were a mix of naval power and land power, people dont change much, if they dont have resources they wage war, doesnt matter if u have a matriarchy or patriarchy
What if Russia was never conquered by the Mongols?
Some say russai would be now wealthier and more open
No Mongols will be next
*_H Y P E R B O R E A_*
@@HistorysInfluence I would really like to see how an Independent Yue* civilization looks like in South China tbh
The traditional clothes of the Russians are of Mongolian origin.
Good to see an upload from you.
What a shame this video uses the imperial standard rather than metric.
95% of the world's population find it hard to conceptualize inches, feet, miles and stones.
Lol. In Australia we use the imperial for height in an informal sense, but are metric heavy for everything else. It’s a good point I didn’t consider.
Underrated channel❤
I think this would have interesting effects on the Family Structures (or family systems) of the Indian Sub-Continent, Iranian Plateau and Europe
Cool video 😎
Love your work. Probably may favorite what if channel
Thanks man
I’m glad to see that you’re uploading more consistently. I’ve been a viewer for a while now, but when you were gone, I was like “damn, another good channel that’s dead.” I liked the effort, thought, and care that goes into making these videos. Your scenarios are very unique as well, as most people would have used WWII or WWI or a lot of Roman Empire stuff etc.(not that theres anything inherently wrong with that, just that its been used for a long time) as they get more views, but you clearly care more about what you create rather then what makes more money. And that’s rare to find and pretty admirable.
I also would like to mention some constructive criticism. The pacing of videos are a bit slow, that’s not really that bad, but its just that in the modern age people like to have information faster or their attention span is shorter. It doesn’t really bother me, but I can see some people saying that it’s boring. Your tone is also a bit unenthusiastic, it can seem somewhat like you’re presenting your school project rather than something you’re passionate about. I’m not saying that you should be like MrBeast, but I’m just saying that it should be more intriguing and really get your audience interested/engaged with the content. I think your maps are great and are interesting to look at, but other than the maps there isn’t much else thats really visually interesting. I’m not saying that you need to have crazy animations or jingle keys in front of my face, but just have something more that we can look at. There is also a lot of alternate history UA-camrs (like Videntis or possible history) that you can draw inspiration from for the visual aspect. I know that it’s not easy to make these changes nor am I asking that you have to, just saying that in my opinion it could possibly make your videos a bit better.
Also if you already don’t have an infinite supply of suggestions from the comments, I think a what if Persia survived or beat the Greek city states or no Alexander, would be pretty interesting. The ancient Greeks are the great grandfathers of western civilization, so it would be interesting if Persia replaced them. For example, maybe instead of the Romans, picking up the Greek pantheon, they take that inspiration from Persia. Which almost kind of happened with Mithraism in the Roman empire. Persia was also a bit ahead of its time, with their banned on slavery, relatively equal treatment of women and men, freedom of religion, their governmental structure etc. (Persia also inspired one of the founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson which had a big impact on America).
Thank you for your time, I hope I didn’t offend. Love your videos, keep up the great work. ❤
Edit: I had to fix the horrible writing errors, my bad.
I didn’t get offended at all, I appreciate the support and the feedback.
I want to balance both interesting subjects and high view count subjects, so it’s good to see you appreciate the more obscure stuff.
I suppose with the pacing I’m conflicted. I naturally talk pretty fast, so I have to temper that (my first video makes it fairly obvious), but like you say people like fast paced content. Something to figure out, or perhaps with enough of the below stuff improved that would work.
I’ve kept an eye on that vocal point. Whilst I believe I’ve improved it I do feel there’s a fair amount of improvement to be done. I’m thinking of treating it like a character to perform as opposed to my true voice, considering I’m pretty monotone in my speech lol.
The visual/editing part you mention I’ve been thinking on. I want to make sure they don’t add too much time on the creation process. But I feel they can make me a channel with the quality of a million sub channel. I have vague ideas but will need to develop them, I like Videntis’s editing on his Rome video but am unsure that type of editing would be sustainable. Could go for a simpler version of it, and in the distant future hire and editor to do it.
A no Alexander timeline has always been an interest of mine and I would like to cover it in the near future. I was vaguely aware of the strengths of the Achaemenids you mentioned but that’s awesome to learn they inspired an American founding father.
Lengthy reply lol but I appreciate the feedback, it’s incredibly helpful.
@@HistorysInfluence
Thank you for replying, I didn’t think at first that you would. I don’t mean to bother, since I’m sure you’ve already got a lot of work for building a channel, and possibly, even a lot of other stuff going on outside of UA-cam. I just appreciate the fact you’re willing to take the time to respond and communicate with your community. That is pretty rare.
To be honest, I think your first video about the fourth crusade felt so much more natural with the pacing. And it didn’t seem to me at least that you talk fast.
About the voice, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it (even if it is a little monotone). I guess what I was really trying to get down to was more about words and how it’s said, rather than how you sound (if that makes sense). For example, Cody from Alternatehistoryhub, I wouldn’t say he has an amazing voice, but he gets the viewer intrigued with what he says. There’s also another channel named Rewriting history, and the person who voices the videos has a Bulgarian accent, which sometimes it’s hard to understand, but he does a decent job of making the videos intriguing with what he says.
for the visuals, right now I think it’s not that bad. For now at least I think it’s better that you put out more content rather than working on something that takes weeks of editing to make. Then as you get bigger, like you said, you can hire people to help with the video making process. To simplify, quantity over quality is better for a smaller channel in my opinion, since it could reach more people and if it flops, then at least you didn’t waste a lot of time on it (to clarify, I don’t mean to suggest that you should put out trash with daily uploads and hope some of it does well). I think what you’re doing right now works perfectly fine for the time being.
Well, I’m glad to know at least that in the future we might get that No Alexander scenario, because it isn’t a topic that I’ve seen covered before, and I have looked (I actually found a conspiracy theory about no Alexander lol). If you’re interested, there are great videos by History with Cy, which he covers ancient history and I think he does a pretty great job of covering the Achaemenids (they are pretty long and thorough. To the best of my knowledge, his works are unbiased, and his sources are verifiable).
And again, thank you for your reply. It was pretty lengthy, but so was mine and the original comment lol. Glad to know I helped in someway. Sorry if I bothered you or taken up your time again.
It would be cool if the Sicani of Sicily survived as a non-indoeuropean ethnic group like say the Basques today....
Good video
Great video, I think we would probably see Semi-Militaristic gender-egalitarian societies develop in this (non-indo-european) more* early european farmer Europe, though the Uralic Peoples like proto-sami, proto-finns, proto-estonians, the magyars (later on), etc would likely invade into/or migrate to Europe and maybe interbreed with the Early European Farmer peoples and ''Botai-Europeans'' (i.e. Botai culture people that may go into Europe) settling down to create their own distinct Uralic civilizations and cultures on the Continent like the Indo-Europeans did.
I think in Anatolia, the Minoans might expand into it and develop a rivalry of sorts with the (non-indo-european speaking) Kaskians there which might ironically be the hittites of this alternate timeline....So the Kaskians might have to fight not just the Minoans, but also the Elamites, (pre-Hittite) Hattians and perhaps the Mushki too if they survive an alternate ''late bronze age collapse'' in this timeline. Also since Assyria, Elam and Egypt survive for longer as civilizations, then if Islam still exists it might become culturally Elamized in the east or become more Culturally Mesopotamian in 'character'. Though later on steppe nomads like the Huns and Turkic peoples would likely invade Afghanistan and the Iranian Plateau before integrating into/(at least partially) assimilating into this ''Elamite Islamic culture'' (instead of the Persianate one in our timeline). And we would see a more powerful Georgia too in the Iron Age/this timeline's alternate Classical Antiquity. The Armenian Highlands might be called the ''Arattan Highlands'' in this timeline or perhaps the ''Mushkian Highlands'' without the Armenians there. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aratta
A Yeniseian-speaking people might migrate into the Caucasus say because of pastureland for livestock and the Middle East may be briefly unified by an Elamized Hunnic* Empire with huns and para-mongolic speaker ethnicities in the (iranian) Elamite Plateau (if historical events happen roughly parallel or similar to the ones in our timeline) before being weakened/driven out of Anatolia by resurgent Kaskian/Minoan States in Anatolia. Also the Pannonian Basin and the Danubian River basin/Danube Valley would be inhabited by Early European Farmer (EEF) cultural and ethnic groups which would form their own civilizations like the Minoans and Etruscans with their own languages and architecture. Finally, the Vascons (the Ancestors of the Basques) & PIE (pre-indo-european) Iberians* would likely create their own unique non-indoeuropean Civilization and even influence neighbouring peoples perhaps even as far Britain and Alps influencing the Rhaetians jointly with the Etruscans.
I would really like an alternate history Scenario done on the independent Baiyue civilization 😊.
Also please consider making videoes on what if Cows never existed? What if Camels never existed? What if the Sahara was Green? and what if Horses never existed? (so we lived in a horseless world) 🐎 🐄 🐫
You should do one about the Ainu
Please make a video on What if the Late Bronze Age Collapse never happened?
It would be interesting to see how the Avar Khaganate for example interacts with the (EEF) Early European Farmer "Danubians" and "Pannonians" plus the Etruscans, Kaskians and Minoans. Perhaps they might switch to the Minoan language or Uralic languages without the Slavs or Greeks in this timeline as their language....also earlier in the Bronze Age of this alternate timeline: an Alternate Atlantic Bronze Age cultural complex would be formed and perhaps dominated or semi-dominated by Vascons, Tartessian and PIE (pre-indo-european) Iberian* warrior-traders. In the late bronze age, the urnfield culture equivalent for this alternate Europe might be a mixture of Rhaetians, Pre-Finno-Ugric Substrate* speaking Peoples (which may or may not have descended from Scandinavian hunter-gatherers) and Uralic peoples (who migrated into Europe like our timeline's (OTL) Indo-Europeans). let's say it is called the "Alpine Cultural Complex". Also with Ancient Egypt and perhaps Assyria surving for longer as civilizations their historical impact on later cultures/civilizations would be profound to say the least especially for the religion of Islam and for places like Nubia, modern-day Eritrea & Ethiopia. There would probably be more powerful, more populous and wealthier Dravidian civilizations in South Asia as well.
Speculating about Civilization in Europe, the Carthaginians, a Phoenician derived Semitic people, were colonizing and expanding into Spain and Southern Europe when Rome and Carthage began to war, and the Etruscans, a non-Indo-European people were fairly advanced. It is very hard to say which could have evolved into a spreading Imperial Civilization as both had horses, and there might have been a more powerful EEF civilization that would have risen, but the Carthaginians also had war elephants, and so may have had trade and militaristic dominance over any EEF civilizations they ran into that filled the void created when the Celts or Romans didn't exist. There is every chance that there may not have been the Bronze Age Collapse of eastern Mediterranean civilizations, or it wouldn't have been as severe, and so something like Egypt or another power from that region may have spread westward.
While the Etruscans did speak a pre-Indo-European language, it has recently been genetically proven that Etruscans had just as much Indo-European DNA as the Romans did.
This is really interesting to hear. Perhaps their culture may not have existed at all then, in contradiction to my video.
No mushrooms, no horses, no cannabis, no good times with ladies outside the wall of the town over.. it would be awful.
It sounds like most of the alternate European languages would be related to basque, with loan words from Minoan, Etruscan, and certain other Middle eastern languages.
Emerging empires may be founded by the Egyptians, Minoans, Carthaginians, and maybe even Dravidians from the East.
In wikipedia R1a haplogroup which is most dominant haplogroup in India and Eastern europe has most diversity in India doesn’t that mean Aryans came from India ? Since rule of genetics is that area which has most genetic genetic diversity is the place of origin hence why Africans have most genetic diversity
Also Saraswati river which was mentioned in Vedas etc Dried up 6-7000 yrs ago which predates and Disproves AIT ?
No, my milk!
What would happen to the Uralic peoples in this timeline??
world could have still developed in similar ways as ours. Technology would probably still emerge, but in other cultures, and spread anyway. Other empires could have emerged. Instead of ancient Greeks that could have been Pelasgians. Instead of Romans - the Etruscans or someone else. Maybe with a smaller Empire or Kingdom. Societies tend to become more patriarchal in bronze age, not just the PIE. The Chinese switched from matrilineal to patrilineal society in the bronze age, later they became one of the most patriarchal societies in history. Some other societies state more egalitarian. Semitic countries like Assyria or Babylonia could have conquered as much land as the Persians.
What if the Bronze Age never collapsed?
I hope you read this
What if Turks never became Muslim rather they were Dharmic Buddhist, Hindu etc just like before arab invasion
What if Massalia survived
what if Crassus and Publius "Parthicus" conquered Persia together
Minor nitpick but the first map is incorrect. Russian is an official language in Kyrgyzstan, but it's marked as not having an Indo-European language as official.
Whoops, got it from a public domain Wikipedia image. Kyrgyzstan was about 25% Russian during the Soviet days interestingly enough
@@HistorysInfluence What appens to the Uralic peoples in this alternate timeline??
Iran would probably be dominated by the Elamites, they were in the best position as they were the largest state there. An alternate invasion from a Mesopotamian power, maybe Assyrians, can force the Elamites to migrate deeper into the plateau.
That would be fascinating
agreed, definitely
Some Para-Mongolic-speaking Peoples, Huns, Ugrians and Turkic Peoples might invade the Iranian plateau [or Elamite Plateau] in this timeline and settle down there, also if Islam exists then it might be more culturally* Babylonian (Mesopotamian) or really more Culturally Elamite* in terms of "eastern" Islamic traditions/architecture/Art/Philosophy/Literature/Science/Medicine,etc..in this alternate Afghanistan, Central Asia and the Indian Subcontinent rather than being culturally persianate. Also the Mannaeans* might survived until today as well as a distinct Ethno-Linguistic group of people.
We would eat Oreos without the milk. Why even live?
I am pretty sure oreos won't exist either
@@darzhanacf8983 💀
I mean im lactose intolerant so it is what it is.
It was a migration in india. There was no invasion. IVC vanished before tha arrival of aryans
What if Carthage industrialized?
What if the Holy Roman Empire never formed?
Can you do "What if the abrahamic religions never happened" ?
What if Trees never existed at all? What if Grass never existed on Earth?
What if the Kalmar Union stayed united?
Historically speaking the Indo-Europeans certainly did spread their form of hierarchal patriarchy over a wide area and often in relatively destructive ways. Nevertheless, even if it weren't for them, some form of hierarchal patriarchy would still have developed and spread across most of Eurasia, albeit at a slower pace. The emergence of class differentiation and improved technologies/techniques for waging warfare made the emergence of hierarchal patriarchy inevitable during that particular historical period. The expansion of the Indo-Europeans on the basis of their wheeled chariots and aggressive warlike culture accelerated this process, but in the long-run the same kind of development would still have occurred.
As a Marxist feminist I am against the patriarchy, but the overthrow of the patriarchy is not a simple return to pre-patriarchal societies, but the re-emergence of gender egalitarianism on a higher level, a spiral upward, like the dialectical logic of thesis --> anti-thesis --> synthesis.
Great comment, not a marxist nor a feminist but your perspective on the matter is very compelling.
The Early European Farmers were heavily patriarchal themselves. It's the default for humans
What if the Cold War never happened?
What if there was no monotheistic religion?
(Including Judaism Islam and Christianity)
It is not a what if, it is an historical fact that the invented theory of Indo-European invasions never existed, because PIE people never existed.
The Semetic world were building great civilisation before India Europeans and without competition from Hitties of India European stock. Semetic world would conquer the world
What if the Wars of the Roses never happened?
0 evidence
What if Islam conquered Europe