I tried to fix Red Dead 2 by roleplaying
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Red Dead Redemption 2 is a meticulously crafted, beautiful, detailed game. It's also got too much stuff in it. Polygon's Patrick Gill talks about where Rockstar went wrong with their western magnum opus and why Red Dead 2 could stand to be a little bit dumber in its design. Jump into the world of Arthur Morgan as Pat attempts to roleplay his way into truly being the cowboy.
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Maybe the reason I've been having trouble motivating myself to vacuum my house is because of lack of noticeable consequences as well... Am I not immersed in, uh, real life?
this seems true
The consequences are a messy house, youre just lazy
@@sam-gp3ov a messy house is just a red hunger meter of "annoying visually" if you don't ever have people over to give you social consequences and aren't allergic to dust like me.
You need a single-action vacuum cleaner.
Nah that’s valid; it’s a beautiful and rewarding game but the tutorial is _brutal_ and takes fucking forever
I roleplayed as aGerman Immigrant (like you meet in the Game) in RDR2 online once, whenever i said a thing in German i was immeidately killed.
Then i switched to English, but since i'm Southern Bavarian i sound exactly like Werner Herzog when he speaks english (movie buffs will know exactly how that sounds) which then lead to a 50/50 chance of either being responded with laughing or again being shot.
I did enjoy this realistic Experience of a Bavarian in American Frontier Times 10/10
Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps
Interesting, I'm bavarian too, I should try that. Helps if you own a gold mine and can just give away gold bars, like the Germans in the story, I guess.
I used to go to holiday in Berchtesgaden with my dad when I was young, and I envy you for living in such a _beautiful_ place!
“Hallo. Haben sie Bratwürste?”
*gets shot*
Fun fact is there was actually a German colony in Texas around the time period which evolved to have their own dialect of Texas German. I used to live in the area but sadly the Texas German dialect has pretty much died out. Now it’s only around in town names like Pfleugerville and New Braunfels.
Point is that if you showed up speaking Bayerisch to them they’d probably have the same 50/50 laugh or shoot reaction (iirc Texas German was much closer to Plattdeutsch)
I’ve seen pictures of Berchtesgarden and it looks incredibly beautiful. Your a lucky man for being able to see the alps and green valley’s outside your door like that
the entire section about the gun and how it represents a design philosophy that makes you notice complexity but doesn't allow you to engage with it is a great point really well presented
This is my problem with a lot of Rockstar's stuff (I'd say from LA Noire onwards). They wave all these really impressive complex systems in your face, but then they don't let you engage with any of it.
The sheer number of times ive (unsuccessfully) tried to go full roleplay in open world games is immense. Its so hard to not take shortcuts or not to get lazy enough to start treating it like a game again.
I tried riding a horse everywhere I went in Zelda BOTW. I stopped quickly since it's easier to go around mountains and landmarks without it, especially in TOTK.
The secret is to accept that you won't be roleplaying all of the time, and that's okay. Just don't fret about it and have some fun
I tried full survival mode in Skyrim. No fast travel, gotta sleep at night and eat food every day, can't be out in the cold for too long. I managed the annoyance of almost freezing to death while the Winterhold mages went on long rants outside, but what broke me is Dawnguard. The Dawnguard base and the vampire castle are on opposite sides of the map, and the questline requires you to trek back and forth across the entire country of Skyrim for each mission. It was just too boring for the 5 lines of dialogue waiting at each end.
I would say though, that some games which are too shallow can be extremely fun if you commit to roleplay, such as Skyrim
Yeah i agree but i think Red Dead is one of the easist games to do that, There's very little stuff that'll take you out of the game (Mostly glicthes or random mistakes you commit accidentally)
gotta be something in the water because I also started a new playthrough recently, trying to do something similar, what broke me is when Bill came looking for me because id been away hunting for too long and had me come back to camp with him. But, when I got back and helped out for about a minute, Dutch came to yell at me for hanging around camp for too long, I hadnt even had a chance to sleep or eat yet!
The fact that you could raise and put in the camp box an incredible amount of money and the story still progressed as if the gang was broke
Im in the same boat, currently on my second playthrough on PC wheras my first was on PS4. It feels like a completely different game to me now and im loving it twice as much as I did on PS4.
I was confused about the critique at the start cause I liked those parts of the game. I noticed that's because I already played it in this roleplay way haha. That just gives me joy in kind of tedious game mechanics. Playing Assassins Creed Valhalla right now and boy do I just go by horse or boat everywhere I already unlocked fast travel points to. It just makes the game more chill and fun instead of always thinking about the most 'efficient' way. (of course in an excellent game you wouldn't have to try and bring your own fun like that)
My favourite gaming moment ever was actually in RDR2. I loved the hunting mechanic and found a swamp with beavers to get some high grade pelts. I was spending so much time there standing hip deep in swamp water desperately trying to find some three star beavers to kill. Mentally completely taken over by furious commitment to farming all the crafting materials I needed. When suddenly Bill came walking out of the woodwork like 'Arthur you haven't been at camp for days wth is going on are you okay?'. It felt so funny and rewarding to be caught red handed in my weird not quest relevant hunting mania :D like 'uhm bill listen i need this beaver hat you don't understand. this is very normal behaviour..'
Same! Although i will say that a second playthrough did not yield the same (obsessive) enjoyment as my initial experience :/ To me, it just doesnt have that replayability unless you want to experience that specific story again, yk. Considering there are no different or “clever” new ways to try and do missions, it becomes a little stale imo
that's so true actually. makes me think that's the reason I often get so bored when replaying some of my favourite games. it only happens when they are this kind of open world rpg. there is just suddenly so much stuff to get through for the story parts that are actually exciting @@kathylennerds750
That opening shot of hunting while dual wielding pistols definitely seemed like it was originally edited to match 'running in the 90s'. Absolutely love it
lol yeah. put running in the 90's on the editing timeline then got worried about DMCA takedowns and spent 45 minutes scouring our stock music service for a suitable replacement.
Mentioning Nakey Jakey is required for Rockstar commentary
He pointed out the biggest issue with the game when others couldn't put it into words. In my opinion, it's still one of the best games ever made, but jakey's video showed that even it had flaws.
To be fair, there is a gameplay advantage to hunting the "right way", in the context that you can get higher quality pelts by using the correct weapon/ammo type. This in turn gives you more money, or perfect-quality pelts are sometimes required to get cosmetic rewards for Arthur or your horse. Tracking animals is also encouraged, as not all animals will even yield perfect pelts in the first place, so you gotta find and track the ones that will.
It's still way too easy. You can just chase them on horse back and use the dead eye how he did in the video. Just use the right weapon and aim for the head.
It's actually even better to mindlessly chase them with your horse than to slowly tracking them down.
@@DillxCorleone yeah. i usually did the ol deadeye horseback arrow trick and I probably should have put footage of that in there too. but the guns were funnier. - Pat
But money has almost no value in the game anyway, because there's basically nothing of consequence to buy. The guns are almost the same, the clothes have no effect, etc etc etc. It all comes back to the fact the game is too easy and there's no consequence to any of the mechanics
@@matthewtait 10/10 ladies and gentleman
@@matthewtait the clothes are because its fun to play cowboy dress up
In Westerado, you have to press RB to cock your gun, and then RT to fire, which means when you first start playing, you can get overwhelmed and forget to cock the gun in a shootout, but later on you get really good at it and can fire even faster.
God that game was awesome, hard as hell but awesome
you can't get a double action?
@@Jrock420blam I don't think so, but I don't remember super well. You just get a shotgun for short range, and a rifle for long range, but they all have the same firing style.
Pat i think you are right about just about everything in this video but also i am the special kind of deranged for whom the role playing hasnt worn off after 500 hours. i still love the game and it is perfect and i wil not hear otherwise
Came here to say exactly this.
Me too! I have added a few mods to increase immersion recently, but never thought about cocking the pistol. It would be a fun mod to add!
same
It was funny to see him present this way of playing as something novel when it's may default haha but I won't say it wouldn't be nice if the efforts of roleplay weren't actually rewarded in-game
@@shaym.1372 The thing is... I actually felt like it was rewarded, just by the fact that I COULD do all those things (helping with camp chores, skinning animals, eating and drinking, taking baths, etc) when, in most games, I simply can't. The reward IS the absurd amount of detail and the "realism" (compared to similar, more "gamey" games), the NPC behavior / routines, the amazingly written story, etc.
I 100% think Pat is right, and from a purely game design standpoint, Rockstar could've been more innovative. But RDR2 was absolutely PERFECT for me, perfect for how I like to play these kinds of games.
I had a similar experience with Cyberpunk 2077. In the beginning I roleplayed hard. Like putting on pajamas to go to bed kind of shit. And that added so much to the experience for me. But I eventually got bored of putting that level of effort in and my experience and connection to the game was definitely affected. Still had a great time with it either way, but it was definitely a case of getting out what you put in and sooner or later you'll lose the motivation to keep putting in.
I'm 600 hours deep into cyberpunk and this is exactly what's been keeping me coming back. I've kept having a fantastic time roleplaying different types of characters and having completely different experiences. Sometimes I'd just go on walks through Night City, listening to music and weaving around other pedestrians as I observe the city around me. I still haven't played phantom liberty because I eventually got bored of investing myself so fully and I want to wait for it to get its spark again before I give it a shot. I think the best games these days are the ones that cater to both playstyles, where they work as a video game, but if you choose to explore their depth they can provide a deeper experience. I'd also recommend roleplaying games like Tears of the Kingdom and older zelda games, there are fantastic experiences lying just below the surface
I would say though, that some games which are too shallow can be extremely fun if you commit to roleplay, such as Skyrim
@@yungjoemighty879I wish roleplaying games showed the same commitment to roleplaying so I wasn't the only one making the magic happen
“Rockstar is forcing you to acknowledge complexity without experiencing it”
Probably the best articulation of what complicated negative feeling RDR2 gave me
Arthurmorphs is a great title for the thumbnail
New Patrick joint, slay
patrick maximizing his joint, slay
For me, I kept Arthur healthy, horse well groomed/fed, camp well supplied, guns maintained, and prey killed cleanly, because I wanted to do those things.
Just like how I went out of my wat to make sure Arthur was styled well, with a couple variants to fit a mood. I was able to be motivated not because of stat debuffs, but because I wanted to be invested. Some reflection, I think it is kind of like a kid playing house with dolls, something I didn't get to experience much.
And I actually want more games that can typify this sort of thing, because way too many of them either can't have good aesthetics, or are too shallow. And either have too much of a disconnect between player and character, or are only masculine action. Is there like anything you could do the RDR2 experience of role-playing the setting, while being a woman?
Surprisingly, the only game I know of with similar aesthetic choices that still matter is Hogwarts Legacy. That game decouples the item from the item's appearance. It's more than just "take off helmet" or "change color of armor". The game allows you affirmatively choose to make your high-level pointy hat look like a leather flatcap if you choose. But you have to earn those appearances through gameplay or in the environment. I like that mechanic because I don't have to look like a clown to have good stats, but the aesthetic options still feel earned. And every once in a while, you find a new cloak with a unique appearance that you cannot apply to other items, making that piece feel a bit more special. (I understand the mixed feelings for many about Hogwarts stuff now, but the mechanic is great)
@@JCintheBCC yes! that was one of my favorite things about hogwarts legacy. it was the first open world RPG i ever played, and it shocked me to then play others that didn’t have this feature. it’s such a great idea.
Funnily enough, this video finally made me understand why people were frustrated with this game. I always roleplay and had such a wonderful time, I just couldn't understand any of the gripes people had with this game, honestly. I always thought roleplaying was the point of this type of games- the same way you can technically shoot your way through Metal Gear Solid, but by doing so, miss on basically everything the game has to offer. It never occurred to me that people did it differently.
A few things on the single action gun part:
1. You can also cock the gun with the left trigger so your can alternate right trigger/left trigger and it feels much more natural.
2. If you fire a single action without aiming, just pulling right trigger, you can actually fan fire and it feels really cool.
It seems like these might alleviate some of your problems although i do agree that RDR2 isn't perfect and has a lot it could improve upon.
Yeah! I learned left trigger trick while i was writing/recording the footage, and its handy. Didn't get into in the video, but I think the auto-aim system on consoles interacts with the shooting mechanics in a way that means you never really feel tactical pressure to choose between shooting styles. Auto aim is really easy, and I despite a lot of tuning, I never found a free-aim setup that felt good on controller.
I know I say in the video I'd be happy waiting another 5 years to check in again, but I have been eyeing the PC version for the m+kb shooting and survival mods. Maybe we'll see a follow up soon
I did much the same with Skyrim, doing a no looting, craft everyting yourself run. Chopping wood for income, only buying the raw materials to make gear, no magic just cooking game I hunted for healing. Trying to do the task people gave me with that low level gear, and surviving only on quest rewards. It was tricky, fun, and frustrating.
Tried something like that after my knight-errant lawful-good type got hit with Brynjolf's "you didn't earn a coin of it honestly" routine. No looting bodies or most containers, only treasure chests. Lot of splitting wood to pay for rooms at the inn.
I wasn’t aware there was anything to fix about the masterpiece of RDR2. Adding that level of depth to the crafting and survival would make it tedious to an unbelievable degree. It is freaking amazing as is.
I feel something very similar to this. I finished the game once and gave up halfway through the second play through. More than 160h in total. I had to work SO HARD to make the game more enjoyable and deep. I love the story so much, but the game itself left me wanting in every other aspect. I wanted to engage with the world, hunt, have to use my money, get lost, struggle. But it was just so much tedious work to do so. Nothing in the game is meaningful or get you satisfied. It's just a really long, well directed and acted movie. As a game, it fails in so many areas. I really wanted to love this game
when i first played this game, i thought i was going to have a problem with the slow, methodical pace and the tedious tasks and looting. however, as soon as I started the tutorial I was hooked, and I found myself voluntarily doing the optional side tasks and immersing myself in the world. the strength of the characters and the story helped me stay immersed in the story and world, and as a person who usually plays games with a podcast in one ear, this game broke that habit and I played almost entirely without one. i love the game so much I played this 100+ hour game again a couple months later, and took just as long if not longer going through the world and deeply immersing myself. its interesting watching this video as someone who really never had any of these issues in RDR2
i don't think Breath of the Wild has this problem.
Me making link slowly and politely walk through town and talk to every NPC and spend some money to buy a room at the in: fun! Yay! This is wholesome
Me making link bomb blast himelf at 40 mph across the city so he can spend 442 rupees on every arrow the shopkeeper has and then teleport to an unfinished shrine: this is also really fun
First Playthrough: Every blade of grass has a soul, every gust of wind has a story, every step is an adventure.
Second Playthrough: Ganon hides in the castle, because he fears my ability to fly
You said that doing the camp chores "from a gameplay standpoint doesn't do anything"
But it actually improves the deadeye core
well that doesn't disprove the point he is making, even if doing it gives you a small improvement, there are easier or more entertaining ways to get that improvement, and not doing it has no penalty
@@RyderDunei well it does disprove the point, it does do something rather than not doing anything. Now if the point were that it isn't impactful enough that would be a good point.
@@Jrock420blam you are technically correct, i was just stating that if there are better ways to get that reward then it renders it obsolete.
@@RyderDunei agreed, it does do something but you are 100% right that it's not enough to be worth it outside roleplay purposes.
@@RyderDunei Yep! Like simply engaging with the combat and getting headshots etc. Or finding bottles of Ginseng Elixir out in the world and downing em for BIG Dead Eye XP.
Thank you for acknowledging how the slower moments in this game are meant for immersion. I remember feeling SO connected to the game when I tried to be Arthur. It made me not wanna do missions cause… I didn’t wanna lose anyone. They were important to me.
Okay I cackled at “grooming your Arthur”
I think red dead 2 is my favorite game, I love the characters, I love the location, I love the mechanics. It all forces you to slow down and I appreciate that. I understand what you mean though there we’re definitely many moments where I wanted more complexity. But the game to me is a technical monster idk how they made it or pulled it off. All of the conversations and interactions in such a big world is wild to me. I’ll always love it and it’s characters
Everything is so detailed in this game. Thanks for using our clips! We love when people spread our stuff around ❤
I personally enjoy everything you say you have a problem with but to each one's own.
You are disgusting
YOU'RE GONNA CARRY THAT WEIGHT
13:10 - "Acknowledging complexity without the opportunity to experience it". I really like how you explain this. (I'm stealing this phrasing, FWIW.) It reminds me of "hanging a lampshade" on something. Narratively, it can act as a Get Out of Jail Free card if used sparingly or once. Similar to what I call the Lucius Fox explanation from Batman Begins. "Was I supposed to understand any of that?" "No, I just wanted you to know how hard it was." It can convey a complexity behind the curtain... so long as it is only a glimpse behind the curtain. If it is used frequently, while refusing to allow interaction with the world behind the curtain, it merely highlights the limitations of the viewer's world (and game design) and has the opposite effect.
For a fun video game Single Action Revolver experience, check out Receiver 2, it has deep gun simulation and includes the Colt Single Action Army, complete with cowboy loading to not shoot yourself in the leg because of how the hammer rests against the primer.
See, I think there's value in games like this. I love RDR2 specifically because it has complexity, but I don't have to spend a ton of my time on it. I don't want a completely simple game but I don't really have the time to invest in full-on survival games. I think Rockstar accomplished exactly what they intended to with RDR2 and I, among many others, love the game. Having said that, I think the cocking mechanic you mentioned would have been cool and it would've been nice to have guns jam when they get dirty.
I love RDR2. I acknowledge all its flaws, especially how the mechanics don't need to be engaged with to finish most objectives and how playing Arthur as a good guy doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, but I am compelled to do it anyway. There's just something about the game that grips me. I use the right weapon and stalk my prey to get 3 star pelts, I donate to and upgrade the camp, I go out of my way to do mundane tasks for the gang members, I play cards and dominoes, I fish, care for my horse, pick out new clothes every now and then, and I guess I give Arthur the life I want him to experience, and I imagine the one the devs wanted for him too. I've finished the game three times and will likely do a fourth sometime soon. I know it's an extremely flawed game, but I adore it.
Great video. I think this highlights one of the core conundrums of game design: that mechanizing things that you need to feel motivated to do inherently works against motivation - by turning them into mandatory chores - but at the same time, designing a game that is "open" and "flexible" in how it can be played all too often results in a gameplay that not only affords but actively encourages an unmotivated, distanced, "screw it, I can just mess around, none of this matters" attitude. That becomes the most efficient way of playing, an outlet for frustration from whatever mandatory chores are left, and gives back some of the fun of childlike play - but this also just can't last. You can't do that and also expect players to be emotionally present and invested in a grand story.
Now, I never played RDR2 - in part because I have a severe aversion towards all things Rockstar, cemented by playing GTA 5 and being constantly baffled by other people's love of what I think is, to its core, a mediocre-leaning-towards-bad game. In part I think my experiences with previous Rockstar games just really mix these elements in the wrong way for me. But they are by no means alone - far from it. IMO, this is one of the major failures of the open worldification of games over the past two decades or so: that the ever-growing corporate development giants fail to be able to distinguish between gameplay that affords and encourages emotional presence in the game - whatever form that may take, from joyful messing around that still feels meaningful, to deeply felt stories, to literally anything else that feels meaningful - from "fun" or "realistic" or whatever features that ultimately result in busywork, time wasting, loss of direction, emotional distancing, making the game feel like a chore, and more. Now, I know my anxiety and perfectionism makes me especially prone to these kinds of feelings, but things like the ever-increasing list of collectibles, checkpoints and map icons just feels like this. Games can't seem to get out of their own way and just let us enjoy them - they're always trying to be five, six, seven things at once. "Hey, here's this amazing story, but btw there's also this unexplored thing here that will increase this number for you, and by the way have you collected all the things you need to craft this thing, and here's another skill tree for you, and - oh no, you're being attacked! - and maybe you should do some hunting?, and you need to go here now, but on the way there's fifteen distractions that will probably side-track you, but you can't fast travel until you've already been there, oh you're late in the game? Yeah now you can fast travel everywhere, but every mission is still spread over a huge area so now it just feels like you're constantly looking at loading screens after two conversations and a small encounter.
The end result of this: chaos. But not an interesting chaos. It's the chaos of a pile of laundry that's been on the floor for two weeks, that increasingly has trash, pet hair, dust bunnies and for some reason a book and those headphones you looked for last week in them - it's a boring, annoying and unmotivating chaos. It's not just a chore, but a collection of chores, and while there is something good to be found in there, it's also constantly distracting you from those good things. And that sucks.
Edit: I wrote this before watching the last chapter of the video, and I entirely agree with what was being said. Complexity without consequence feeds into this loop: you _can_ do everything, but none of it matters. You _can_ care, but you don't have to. You _can_ not care, but then why play for more time than it takes you to get bored of romping around the countryside shooting at anything that moves? However, I think there's one extension of the approach the video puts forward that is necessary to avoid the feeling of chores and busywork that a lot of survival games also too often fall into: mechanics can't be too simple, too linear. This is of course in part a failing of what computer programming affords most easily: counting stuff on a linear scale is very easily done on a computer, so it's easy to implement a linear state machine. But that's not how life, or bodies, or guns, or really much of anything works. You don't immediately die if you forget to drink water for a while - that takes literal days. Not maintaining your weapons don't make them just outright break, like in the absolutely infuriating weapons in the latest Zelda titles - they might, or they might just work intermittently, or they'll jsut be worse in various subtle and complicated ways.
And RDR2 seems to kind of embody this. If this video is to be believed, rather than deep, complex, subtly forgiving and flexible but also rewarding and meaningful mechanics, it has a wealth of superficially "realistic" but meaningless, consequence-free, shallow and ultimately annoying mechanics instead. Sadly, it's by no means alone in this. With the corporatization of game development we're seeing an ever-increasing pressure for every game to be everything for everyone - a logical impossibility that ultimately just leads to an ever increasing nubmer of games having a million features that are all equally shiny on the surface, but mostly shallow, meaningless and unengaging. And, to be clear, forcing developers to make every one of these mechanics "deeper" won't solve this either, as that would just make every game into an unmanageable slog. Media needs focus and some degree of simplification. Maps can't be as big as the actual world, because then we'd need to walk for literal decades to traverse it without modern modes of transportation, and I for one don't want to play something that simulates a commute. There needs to be a balance, and that balance needs an artistic vision behind it to work.
Talking about single action and double action pistols teminds me of a game i played a lomg time ago (i think it was GUN all-caps?) Where firing one gun was blazing fast but ran dry just as quick, because the player character would fan-fire, and then you had the option to dual wield, which granted you more shots between reloads, but was equally awkward to cock the hammer with one hand between both pistols after every shot, so it ended up being pretty slow. Thought that was cool, tho i dont remember if you can magically reload one while firing the other.
GUN was a pretty cool game, other than the... obvious issues of a game of its time tackling wild west subject matter.
I haven't played Red Dead myself, but I have watched a first person roleplay of simply trail riding with your horse. With no danger around, it was really relaxing!
Patrick Gill Unravels
I see Pat's new years resolution was to start more fights then.. Godspeed, cowboy! :salute:
Your commentary is so consistently thoughtful, seriously thank you so much for your hard work
Yep, RDR2 is ballcrushing players by making them sit on a fence situated between the extremely curated narratively-driven experience and the open-world immersive survival one, with the game's pressure on the player's shoulder driving that fence ever so deeply with each breath.
Isn't it weird that "single action" requires two actions, and "double action" requires only one?
I have to remind myself that the actions being mentioned are the actions being performed by the pistol, not the user.
And specifically, the actions performed by the trigger.@@RosaFriend
Glad you made this video, it blows my mind that folks never played this game this way, I spent around 100 hrs on my first play through engaging w every system as often as possible. This game is a sim and is most satisfying when met on its intended level
i love this analysis, patrick's videos never disappoint!
Love the video and nakey jakey reference, love that guys music and video essays. But really, great analysis and I love the idea of the two different rdr2 the immersive versus action so much! What a wonderful way to voice the pros and cons of the game, thank you Patrick! And everyone who helped on the video
The stars have aligned and this video that encapsulates all my frustrations about the immersive-ish sim features of red dead (to say nothing of its morality system) has dropped in the middle of my 2nd full playthrough
The Nakey Jakey video helped me process RDR2 and put cohesive words to my vague feelings. I feel like this video did that with survival games, one of my favorite genres. What a gift
Your point about the single action opens up so many possible opportunities. The idea of having separate buttons for pulling the hammer back with a face button and pulling the trigger with the trigger is brilliant, and it'd be neat to include a fan the hammer option that you get better with with your hands, like short hops in smash. You flick the hammer button fast enough or light enough, and you can turn your single action into a double action.
You could also hold the trigger button while tapping the face button, which is how fanning the hammer really works
@@zacharyheine4177 That's brilliant!
This is THE way to play Red Dead. It’s what’s kept me coming back all these years.
Before the game came out and it displayed all of these amazingly detailed systems, I knew that the game was going to be different than GTAV because it was clear to me the game encouraged roleplaying. The fact you could only take two weapons was “authentic”, but the fact that your horse’s saddle bags carried all 30 of your guns was not.
I remember spending time playing dominos with Tilley, even though I had no interest in the mini game, I wanted to spend time with the character, and I enjoyed it.
Sure, when I was done with the game I’d take John and eat every dead eye power up I had and just shoot enough cops in Blackwater that the frame rate would chug and the saloon would fill up with dead corpses, amazed for the first time a game DID NOT respawn its ragdolls.
It was an amazing game, even more so when you role played a little.
Currently doing something similar in Tears of The Kingdom
That game has so many huge amazing mechanics that are made nonexistent by things in the game. Campfires make the night enemies pointless, clothing effects make most consumables pointless, fast travel makes exploration less meaningful, and overpowered items makes extra hearts and stamina slowly take the challenge and fun out of the game.
So I made my own rules to put the fun back in. No waiting by campfires, no eating during combat, no fast travel outside of medallions, and you can only change armor once after a blood moon.
The one thing that stops me from coming back to RDR2 is the fact that too much of the game is missable. There are too many encounters you have both in and outside of camp or items to be found that you either only get a chance to see in very specific circumstances, at overly specific times in the game (like only during one missions in act II or whatever), or that are far too rare to ever realistically see. I cannot bring myself to play a game in which I can never do or collect everything. Its too easy to miss that one unique gun that only one minor character during one mission has, or to never receive that one camp request that only occurs in specific circumstances during one small time window. It was never an issue in the original RDR and its one of my all-time favourite games. But RDR2 just does not gel with the way I play games at all. I want to be able to experience all a game has to offer, not to miss some things every playthrough.
okay the choice to include a clip of his video in the "go check this out first" bit was great it actually did get me to pause and go watch the other previously-unknown creator's video first. I usually just handwave that kind of thing!
This is an excellent video!!! The execution and depth is unparalleled. Thank you for sharing. ❤
Really thought this was going to be about joining an RP server! Great points nonetheless.
Reminds me of how I played Starfield at first, being super interesting in scrounging all over for interesting or unique items I could take and display in my home or my ship. The game feels totally designed to let players do that... but bugs kept deleting my interesting / unique stuff. I persisted, reasoning that eventually I would be able to sidestep the bugs I now knew about, and that the biggest terrible one was a one-time event that had now passed. Then I find out that the entire point of the game is to totally wipe out everything you worked so hard to collect and build. That big complex mining operation that never had any real use in the game? Just trash it, the game doesn't want you to ever see it again. Your collection of unique different coffee mugs? Just trash them. Your incredible gigantic ship that you sunk so many hours into getting just the right modules for, arranging them just so, and displaying all kinds of gear right on up to moving pots and pans around your galley? Yeah, just trash it, the game doesn't want you to ever see it again. What a weird damn hollow game.
This is why the difficulty level design philosphy is more important than many people acknowledge, being able to have none of the unnecessary faux-complexity when you want to get through the game for a casual action-story experience, and being able to turn on real mechanics with skill/failure complexity when you have the time to get really immersed. The half-and-half experience serves nobody.
And, crucially, having the opportunity to turn those things on and off in the middle of a playthrough. Because sometimes you'll want it, and sometimes you won't. Does it reduce the challenge? Sure, but the challenge isn't the point. The connection to the game is.
The thing that killed roleplay in RDR2 for me wasn't a lack of supporting mechanics, it was the game's refusal to acknowledge how I played the character. I was going for a repentant outlaw doing his best to support the only family he knew, killing and intimidating only when there wasn't a better option and exercising a rough kindness to help others when possible. The options were usually there in play. But convos with gang members would continue to paint Arthur as an angry, violent alcoholic or something no matter what. That and the game's habit of auto-failing missions when you didn't do them in the "intended" way just ended up killing the experience for me. I've been enjoying Baldur's Gate 3 in part because it respects and responds to choice and player agency, even if it's buggy sometimes and not nearly as beautiful as RDR2.
Pat's videos are all must watch for me.
New polygon vid just dropped, instant watch
TIL how a single action revolver works. Thank you, Polygon.
into the radius is a great game, y'all should give it a full feature
I'm gonna be honest I love all the over the top details and features. All of it made the world feel more real in a welcomed way I have probably like 2,000hrs in just rdr2 story mode.
Man just when I started playing red dead 2 again it seems like everyone is doing a video on it. Capture my thoughts perfectly. Story and characters are some of my favorite, but the gameplay will likely prevent me from replaying it again anytime soon.
Great video! Immersion is so important when playing a game, and Red Dead 2 feels like it had the intentions to do that but decided to back out last second. I also feel like this when playing Fallout 4
You shouldn’t scrap optional features you won’t even use half of your playthroughs because it doesn’t affect you
This video connected really well to my expectations vs reality experience with playing BG3 shortly after release. I was expecting a game I could get deeply into roleplay with and play it almost like I play DnD. Instead, it really is just a videogame. I came back and appreciated it more once I realized this.
I sure am glad I get to open cabinets and pick up items one at a time. It would be a darn shame if I had to do any rooting tooting cowboy shooting.
This is such an absurdly good video. I'm blown away by the attention to detail and level of analysis throughout. You know, like the video essay version of the game Rockstar was trying to make.
Is there the possibility for mods to at least make hunger a mortal or hunger/stamina reducing threat, and give dirty old guns chances to jam and waste ammunition, or to become extremely inaccurate and slow to fire? All this does is make me want to replay arthur's story with these hooks.
imagine.. being on the road for a day or so, forget to fill your pack and you'll have to go hunt or forage to get through the night! Pull out your trusty revolver for a duel to find your perfect disarm go way wide thanks to all the rust and dirt.. idk. too hopeful.
I first played Red Dead 2 during the start of the pandemic. I fully expected to hate it, but the game won me over and I almost played exactly as you did in the video. I ended up playing it for 120 hours, shed tears for the story, and realized I haven't been outdoor except for grocery for weeks.
As someone who’s just getting into roleplaying in games, this was so interesting! This video has given me helpful ideas for how to improve immersion in my playthroughs. I wonder if there are any mods for Red Dead that elevate the survival mechanics?
Great great great great work! Really enjoyed that.
Yeah having played red dead for probably far longer than anyone should I’ve found the game to be most fun when I intentionally let myself die/get arrested so I have little to no money/weapons because it’s actually challenging. One of my favourite moments in the story is when you get captured by o Driscoll’s and have to fight your way out with no guns and empty health/stamina. My only complaint is that sort of thing didn’t happen often enough and so it starts to become mind numbingly repetitive oh what’s that? There’s five lawmen on their way to arrest me? Just go in deadeye and shoot them all hell even without deadeye it’s still an unfair fight as even if you get hit several times you can just chug a bottle of questionably healthy medicine and miraculously stop haemorrhaging from every hole in your body.
Incredibly well spoken, Pat. I really enjoyed this video.
I see a Polygon video with Patrick, I click
"the mechanical investments yielded emotional dividends" well written video
The index finger/thumb input dance for single action revolvers is actually kind of an inspired idea and I'm angry that Rockstar didn't do that now
how are there zero comments about this goku on pat's shirt, it's incredible and deserves recognition
I think adding an option to have a survival mechanics can help with these. If you can able to it turn on and off can help both the casual and immersive type of players.
Anyone else notice he had an American Standardbred in CH1 when you're only supposed to be able to have the Mahogany Walker?
This is a great analysis, but including footage of Subnautica just caused my mind to wander towards the memories it gave me and how much I wish I could “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind” just to experience it for the first time.
I only got around to RDR2 last year - I’m poor, leave me alone - and this really encapsulates a lot of what frustrated me about it, but also what I learnt to love. When I started treating it like a modernish AAA ARPG, a Skyrim, rather than the Ubisoft map-marker collectathon it initially presents as, many of my frustrations crystallised into features. I still feel like I’m fighting it rather than playing it a lot of the time, and I still feel like the game I’d adore is juuuuust out of reach
This articulates a frustration I have with soooo many open world games. I want to love them so bad, but eventually the boredom creeps in and the game provides no motivation to engage with it on the level I want to engage with it. I’m almost certain the ADHD makes it even worse, considering ADHD is sometimes called a motivation deficiency.
Really nice take. I enjoyed your perspective a lot. Because the game's hidden potentials are mostly behind bad designed gameplay, I've imagined perhaps there will be an awesome overhaul mod to make it the true western immersive simulator. I suppose too much things are hardcoded in this game. What a shame...
Really hard to roleplay in this game when you have to kill entire armies almost every mission.
WAKE UP, new Patrick video just dropped!!!
I thought this was gonna be a video about joining a RDR2 role playing server? But it was still entertaining, bravo.
This game is a sea-change for me. I couldn't relate less to how you feel about it, but I know it's your genuine experience. Amazing how one game can mean such different things!
for some reason i liked this game way more the second time around.
first play through i just wanted to finish the story and fast travelled as much possible, especially in the second half.
but on the second play through i maybe fast travelled once. I took horse rides everywhere and explored every nook and cranny. got way more into the camping on hunts and fishing trips. the role playing experience just kind of happened naturally since i was returning to the game to be in the world and enjoy it while it lasted
When are we getting the ITR video?
wow the detail of using actual max payne 1 death sounds
the premise certainly intrigues
In Far Cry 2, if you don't take care of your gun or replace it, it will inevitably jam or at worst, explode on your hand. This isn't a simple thing that is as easy to fix as using an item, it is a constant threat and can change how a fight goes. I really wish RDR2 went for something like that.
The complexity without consequence is actually my biggest fear going into GTA VI. My largest issue with V was how cars were OP and all you had to worry about was how much max speed it had. It cheapened all the other stats and made stuff like hunting, biking, and other activities feel boring in comparison, and there was never any reason to use a car best fit for offroading. Rockstar is great at making every part shine but fails to put gameplay elements all together in a cohesive manner.
This is fascinating to me because I didn’t actually play RDR2. I played my dad’s save game but because I didn’t want to advance story without him. I ended up doing all of these tasks without the fire fights or story. So here’s my perspective, the game was basically Animal Crossing, it was a relaxing simulator where you hunted to feed your family and played dress up with your horse.
Wild how playing the game the way it’s supposed to be played makes it more fun
I really hope a lot of the stuff that you had to self impose eventually gets picked up by modders. Stuff like working at the the camp actually having consequences, or the single action revolver system you mentioned, or actual gun condition and hunger meters would all be really cool to mod in
Strikes me that a lot of these problems might be caused by Rockstar trying to build a game to appeal to a wide variety of players. My default style is a more immersive roleplaying style, so I LOVED things like the camp dynamics, the weight mechanic, etc. I came from playing Witcher 3 to playing RDR2, and RDR2 fixed things that irritated me and broke my immersion in Witcher 3, like how it's not possible for Geralt to sleep during free roam, even though he'll sleep during specific quests and cutscenes. I noticed how comparatively restrictive RDR2 was in missions, but it didn't really bother me, as the narrative is the most important thing to me in a game (as an example, whenever I sent Arthur to find a Point of Interest or a cigarette card, I had to come up with a reason why he was veering off the trail). I also noticed the lack of consequences, and while it did feel like a missed opportunity, it didn't impact my enjoyment at all because it didn't change how I was playing the game. I assumed it was actually intentional, so that players who just want to play through missions and/or play Wild West GTA won't be bogged down by the need to eat or sleep or hunt for the camp, while players who want a more immersive story experience can take advantage of those in-game opportunities.
I think maybe a possible solution would have been to build in those consequences but have the option to turn them off. I would have loved to see them, but I also know so many people who would HATE having those 'sticks' because that's not what they want to spend time on - and I imagine those players are a sizeable enough chunk of Rockstar's market that they can't just foist those mechanics on them and say 'deal'. I think that's exasperated by the fact the game took so long and cost so much to make, which increased pressure to make the game as appealing as possible to as many different types of players as they could, in order to make back that investment. (And that points to the other problem, which is - these mechanics would have cost even more time and money to build).
I guess the long and short of it is that I agree the game would have benefitted from more consequences, but I struggle to see how they could have done that without shrinking their market and getting into shareholder trouble. But again, I love the game as it is - and as other comments have said, maybe we'll see some mods some day which fix some of those problems.
Just realized how long it's been since I saw the cover of an Animorphs book.