Trent Horn DEIFIES Virgin Mary while Defending Catholicism
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- While being interviewed by @RuslanKD , @TheCounselofTrent unknowingly and ironically deified the Virgin Mary while trying to prove that the Catholic church does not deify Mary.
You can watch the original clip here -
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As Trent pointed out, in revelation it shows that God receives the prayers of the saints. So it doesn’t matter how he gets them, what matters is that he does get them.
I think you misunderstand what Trent is saying. Intercession of the Saints in this sense is that they are in heaven and more alive in heaven and their requests which is what a prayer is can have more effect if what we request or ask in prayer is compatible with God's will...the highest and Queen of all the Saints in heaven is Mary...she is a creature like you and I but she was the pure vessel that in her womb for 9 months held our Lord and God Jesus Christ...Jesus is God ...he is the most Holy on High and Mary was chosen unblemished to bear the Son of God...this is why the Orthodox call her Theotokis the God Bearer...she is not God but she is pure and Holy she said yes to God's will. Worship is given to God alone in Catholicism....honor is given to Mary not worship....just as we are suppose to honor our earthly Fathers and Mothers....we too are to Honor the Mother of our Lord.
You avoided my point about omnipresence. I didn’t misunderstand.
A very common tactic of RC apologists that I have dealt with for 10 years. They rarely address your actual point and will jump to a change of subject or what seems to often be essentially preprogrammed talking points as a response.
@@Bibledingers This question has been answered many times brother. But it’s very possible you may not have come across it so allow me to answer. No, the intercession of the saints does not imply that those in heaven have omniscience. However, if you understand heaven as the beatific vision in which we stare into the essence of God it is perfectly reasonable to believe God could and even WOULD have reason to share the prayers of believers on earth to the saints in heaven who then pray alongside us. Naturally this would lead you to the question “why would God reveal our prayers to the saints just for them to then pray to God instead of answering our prayers without their intercession. The answer to that is that the Bible reveals the power and importance of prayer in numbers as well as the prayers of the righteous. God doesn’t have to do this but chooses to because it brings about a greater good; the good of unity and cooperation in the body of Christ. Also, someone could just as easily ask “why pray at all if God knows what you need or are going to pray for before you ask” and I’m sure you’d chime in and explain that our prayers are not changing God’s mind in any way as if He lacked knowledge of what we wanted and then gained it after we prayed. There’s power in prayer because it displays the good of humility on our part and paternity on God’s. Looking forward to your response. God bless!
Bibledingers Only God is omnipresent. Mother Mary, the Saints or the Angels are not omnipresent. But, they can and do listen to any prayers addressed to them from anywhere in any language. This is not because they are capable all by themselves, but rather God makes them “accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine” (Ephesians 3:20). It is God who empowers them.
Bible says when we are in Christ, we are one body with Him (Romans 12:5), and we are branches of the one true vine (John 15:5) and not even death can separate us from Christ (Romans 8:38). The body of Christ, the Church, is made up of both the living (those on Earth) and the dead (those in Purgatory and Heaven), together forming a spiritual solidarity called the communion of saints. And since those in heaven are in perfect communion with God, they also have communion with us through God. Also those in heaven are not restricted by space and time like us on earth.
Now that we have established that the whole Church is in the mystical body of Christ, let’s look into how the human body functions. Suppose there is a wound in one part of the body the whole body becomes aware of it and prepares to help in the healing process. For example platelets adhere to tissues around a wound, forming a blood clot, sealing damaged blood vessels and the bone marrow starts producing more white blood cells to combat possible infection of the wound. All of this happens because every single organ in the body is joined to the head and receives the required information from it. Similarly, those in heaven, who are in perfect union with God, can hear the prayers of the faithful through Jesus Christ, the head of the body (Colossians 1:18), and obtain for us what is needed as per God’s will.
We do have Scriptural evidence to back up our claims. One such evidence would be Revelations 5:8 where we find the elders in heaven holding “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”. If they are indeed offering up our prayers, they also must be aware of them.
As I conclude this answer I would like to remind all readers that whatever the saints and angels obtain for us, they obtain them from God as the scripture says “every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (James 1:17).
By Edin Michael
@@treycastle9119 and I wonder what verse you could use to support this occurrence.
Do the saints in heaven exist in a temporal state or does their experience transcend the three dimensions we are confined to in our sensory experience? There are even stories of people in this life being able to "sense" events happening to loved ones from other countries, which were later shown to be accurate premonitions. So I would question that assumption before jumping to an accusation of deification. Further, Angels have more faculties than men, but that doesn't make them deities. To attribute supernatural abilities to another entity does not elevate them to the position of God. Lastly, prayer is not worship. To pray is to ask. I could pray to you, asking you to pray for me. This is all that is meant when a Catholic "prays" to a Saint or and Angel. It is a request for intercession.
We are never instructed to pray to saints, the Bible declares all believers are saints and that the Holy Spirit intercedes. There's no evidence dead saints pray for us, or even interact with us. The only example is with witchcraft and even then God cursed Saul in the process.
The answer to that objection is in what early Christians belief about the beatific vision and the eternal life.
2 Peter 1:4 gives us a clue
“Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.”
So it is not that Mary and the saints are gods by their own essence, but rather they are partakers of the divine nature and that’s why they can “see” God, know him (John 17:3), and be with him.
That’s how they can listen to our prayers at any time and at the same time.
This reveals a very interesting theology from Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that being deification, aka theosis, wherein “God became man so that man might become God” (CCC 460)
@@killianmiller6107 Exactly, something present in the scripture and on the church fathers but that goes unnoticed very often, which is sad because once you realize it you are amazed of how big and amazing is the gift that God gives us thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus
No scripture says they receive or can listen to our prayers. Furthermore all believers are saints, so being in Christ but dead doesn't give u special powers or change ur relationship with the living. They are still servants just as we are.
They’re more than servants, they’re adopted children of God and friends of Jesus as he says in John 15.
We’re saints because we’re in Christ but most of us are still attached to sin. But they are free from it now and that’s why they’re in the presence of God.
But what I would like to ask you is, what is eternal life? Jesus says, “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
But what is to know God? Can we know God?
@@EdgardoSilva-od3td they call themselves servants and say not to bow to them, yet Catholicism is perfectly fine bowing to statues, that's a red flag buddy. U say we are attached to sin, but the Bible teaches we are dead to it. U are purposefully degrading our relationship with God so u can justify putting the dead on a pedestal. None of that is biblical...
We know God by receiving the Holy Spirit. Did u know that?
Your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premises. It doesn’t require omniscience or omnipresence to hear millions of request because even billions is a limited number, requiring limited power and knowledge, albeit greater knowledge. Trent did not say that Mary has the power to hear those requests on her own! She couldn’t. Anything she is able to do is by God’s grace. God can use YOU to work a miracle without deifying you. Why can’t God work this miracle of hearing many requests in Mary? If you’re not wanting to limit God, it doesn’t have to require deification (in the way you’re using that word) for Mary to hear many requests.
A short video that might be helpful:
ua-cam.com/video/cOSc1FGH4EY/v-deo.html
Im Orthodox, come to the 1 holy orthodox catholic and apostolic Church founded by Christ.
Your mislead the viewer. Mr. Horn (by your own admission) does not deify Mary. You present conjecture to put words in his mouth. Heaven itself is outside of time, so it has no relevance to earth's structured time. The Catholic Church (both East and West) has always honored Mary since ancient times. The Catholic Church (both East & West) forbid worship of any persons outside of the Holy Trinity. The Catholic Church condemns worship of Mary as it is idolatry and contrary to God's commandment.
I did not admit that Mr. Horn does not deify Mary. In fact, this entire video is about how he unknowingly deifies Mary. You don’t even have to watch. That’s what the title is.
@@Bibledingers I stand corrected. You did not claim that Trent Horn does not deify Mary. I watched (and listened) to the video twice now. I guess your main point is insinuating Mary is omnipresent by the faithful that pray for her intercession. You tell me, is Heaven on Eastern Standard Time? Universal Standard Time? Those in the presence of God can not receive His grace, but are bound by earthly limits? God has His limits in this regard? The last point about the Lord's prayer ... it is prayed at every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and I believe at the Divine Liturgy of our Eastern brethren as well. Keep investigating my beloved brother in Christ. Keep asking questions. I will include you in my prayers. Mary is often the major obstacle for believers returning home to the Church founded by Christ.
@@georgemontee8738 you’re conflating the time on a clock with the current moment of human history. And you are correct. I do not believe that those in Gods presence are automatically given Gods divine attribute of omnipresence. If you believe that, you’d have to show me scriptural support to convince me.
Great breakdown brother!
Thanks bro!
I always think about James 5 in the light of 2 Corinthians 5:21. We are the righteousness of God because we are in Christ. So when Christians pray then their prayers are heard by God because of Jesus and what He’s done for us. 🙏🏼
By GOD being the key! 🔑
@@Bibledingers absolutely
Mary is the daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Spirit. There can be no one whom God would have a greater relationship with.
Okie dokie
Spouse of the Holy Spirit? How so? Where does that come from?
Mary has been honored as Theotokos since the earliest days of the Church. The Bible as we know it wasn't codified until the early 5th century at the earliest, and that process occurred within the context of Sacred Tradition, i.e., the faithful passing down of the Church's teachings by those whose job that is to do, namely the Apostles sent by Christ, and their successors the bishops.
Your stumbling block is that you have deified the Bible, which is but one part of the Church's Tradition that we have received today. Think about it, how could the Church have functioned for 400 years on a 'is this biblical'? mentality if the Bible wasn't even formalized? It's because of Tradition. The same Tradition that has always maintained that Mary is 'More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim ' and the Theotokos, whose personal holiness makes her perfectly suited to intercede for us and to draw us toward her Son. Praying and worshiping are not the same act, whatever you say. Veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary is one of the oldest Christian Traditions and is not idolatry. Sola scriptura on the other hand is a recent development, only about 500 years old, put forward by men who rejected Tradition in favor of their own personal opinions. Who are you more willing to trust as authoritative?
No Catholic "deifies" Mary. If it did, I wouldn't be Catholic. If you have EVER been to a Catholic Mass, you would know, we ONLY worship God alone. Never a creature. We DO however honor her for saying YES. We DO follow her words "do whatever he tells you." Se points us to follow her Son. Always.
And she’s also omnipresent
@@Bibledingers Questions for you:
1. In the Old Testament, WHO was the Queen of the Davidic Kings (almost always)?
2.. What role did she have on the behalf of the people?
3. How did the King greet her?
4. Where did she sit?
The Old Prefigures a greater fulfillment in the New. Keep in mind, Jesus is the KING OF KINGS!
@@TruthHasSpoken you can dodge the omnipresence thing with red herrings all day
@@Bibledingers Didn't dodge a thing. You didn't ask any question. I however have asked some simple questions of you. How about answering them? You THINK you know scripture. Let's see.
@@TruthHasSpoken you didn’t watch the video
Sad, non-catholics in wat 30-45yrs of earthly life, know more than the 2000yrs Catholic Church. The same Church who already heard and dealt with mostly everything "modern man" has regurgitated throughout the ages.
When we die, do we just stop praying for one another?
I don’t see how Trent Horn is wrong in this video
Angels and Saints are not bound by time like living humans are
Living on earth as the Church Militant
@@danielshea9264 what verse says that?
@@Bibledingers in 2 Peter 3:8 "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." So, those who are in heaven experience time differently from those who are not in heaven. I had written that comment in a small response to you about when you said that for Mary to be able to answer prayers from multiple people at the same time she would have to be omnipresent. I just want to say that I do not think it necessarily means that. What I do think it could mean is that God can give Mary (and the saints and angels) the ability to intercede for multiple people at the same time or act so quickly that it would seem like the same time to us.
@@danielshea9264 “that with THE LORD” not “that with those in heaven”
Don’t switch the words in the text my friend.
@@danielshea9264 also, your answer is conjecture on what you think might be happening. Don’t confuse that with what the scripture teaches.
BIBLEDINGERS,YOU HIT THE NAIL PERFECTLY ON THE HEAD!!
In fact, Jesus refutes that Mary is more blessed than other believers.
As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Luke 11:27-28 ESV
Jesus does not refute His mother in this Sacred Scripture. He explains that not only His mother is blessed, but also anyone who hears the word of God and keeps it. Jesus is inviting us all into the family of God with His statement. Do not forget that the angel Gabriel declared that all would call Mary blessed among women. No one loves Mary more than Jesus and Mary would never allow anyone to admire or love her more than her son. Her last recorded words were "Do as He says".
No the point here is that Mary’s blessedness isn’t because of bloodlines. Rather, it’s because of faith, which is why Elizabeth continued, “Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”
And so Mary has a true maternity-not merely along bloodlines, but even more importantly, in faith.
When you read Matthew 11 and Luke 12 isn’t to knock Mary down a peg. It’s to hammer home that, although Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s promise to the House of David, the kingdom of God isn’t going to go the way that Israel and Judah’s royal house went. Membership in this new dynasty is based not upon blood or marriage, but upon faith, so that “to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God” (John 1:12). That’s the point Jesus is making in Matthew 12: we are all invited into Jesus’ family, through faith. Slowly, Jesus’ followers will realize that this “all” includes even Samaritans and Gentiles, and that this new house “shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples” (Isa. 56:7).
How does that refute anything that Catholics hold pertaining to the blessedness of Mary? Was it not Mary who God chose to carry Jesus, the Word made flesh? Was it not Mary who heard the word of God through Gabriel? Was it not Mary who accepted the physical manifestation of the Word within her womb? It would seem to me that Mary embodies everything that is said in Luke 11:28 ESV. Do not mistake my words for "deifying" Mary, they do not. Was Gabriel mistaken when he said to Mary "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" Luke 1: 28 ESV, some ancient transcripts include: blessed are you among women?
If there is no hierarchy within the saints then why did Christ say this. Mark 10: 35-40 ESV: And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”
Notice what Jesus doesn’t say. He doesn’t say that James and John’s request is absurd because the Kingdom of Heaven doesn’t have any hierarchy. He doesn’t say that nobody is any closer to God than anybody else. He doesn’t say that there is no left and right hand spot. He simply says that those spots have already been set aside, and He’s not telling us for whom. That is, God has an order, but it might be pretty different than the order we’d imagine.
And can there be any doubt, from Scripture itself, that Mary is in a particularly honored position? Elizabeth says to her, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” (Luke 1:42 ESV), and “blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” (v. 45). Mary says of herself that “ For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed” (v. 48b). Indeed, she reminds us that God “he has brought down the mighty from their thrones and exalted those of humble estate” (v. 52), yet again showing that God has an order, just not our order, and she places herself as one of those who has been exalted, “for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.” (v. 48a).
The true Mary we know and love is the mother of Christ and a woman personally chosen by God. In Revelation she is depicted as "the woman clothed in the sun" whom the great red dragon sought to destroy her child. The Mary however that we see often deified and prayed to is actually a derivative of Semiramis and the child is Tammuz/Nimrod. They are NOT the Lord Jesus Christ and Mary the virgin. Both figures were worshiped as goddesses and gods in Babylon, Egypt, and eventually adapted in Greece. There is a lot of Babylonian iconography at the Vatican today. That's probably why the pope wears a Daegon fish hat.
@Bibledingers, the problem is that you are assuming that one's cognitive abilities remain unchanged whenever we are pure spirit or in our resurrected bodies. 2 Peter 1:4 tells us that through Christ we are partakers in the divine nature, and 1 John 3:2 says that when he appears "we shall be like him".
The Catholic belief is that in heaven we shall be like the angels (though not being angels) in much respect, and have our cognitive abilities increases immensely (though not infinitely as God himself). There's nothing in Scripture that contradicts this idea, and having god-like attributes is not the same as being a god.
I am not assuming our cognitive abilities are going to remain unchanged. I do not believe, though, that we will gain God’s ability to be omnipresent. That is an affirmative statement on the behalf of Catholics which has no backing in scripture. That is what I’m challenging.
While your argument may make logical sense to some, it’s lacking the only thing that matters. The Bible.
@@Bibledingers the bible, you mean the 73 book bible that was compiled by St Jerome around 400AD for the Catholic church? Amen.
@@michaelcaudron9883 cite a verse from that Bible that teaches Mary’s omnipresence
The Canon can not be determined by the Catholic church or "compiled " as if independent from God. Humans can only affirm what God gives, they can not determine it (leaving the debate about the legitimacy of the Apocrypha aside). In any case, notice you jumped to a different subject as a kind of "gotcha" attempt rather than addressing the actual subject /question.
@@Bibledingers She is in heaven with the saints, the angels and our lord. You keep confusing intercessory prayer (asking the saints to pray for us) with prayers to God. When we pray (intercessory prayer) to Mary, we ask her to ask our lord to hear our prayer. Wedding feast at Canna. She is not a Diety. She is a creature like you and I but she is full of grace - when the angel Gabriel appeared to her at the Annunciation.
And to the disciple, He said, Behold your mother. Sacred Scripture translated from the Greek uses the word "disciple" because Jesus was bestowing a universality of Marian motherhood. As Mr Horn claims, she was the first disciple of Jesus. He loved and honored His mother as He was obedient to the commandments of God. It was not simple housekeeping from the Cross; Jesus instructs His disciple "Behold your mother." (seven minutes, 52 seconds in). Jesus is using some of His last dying breath to utter this instruction. Should believers follow it?
Did He also say, “Behold Mary is omnipresent”?
@@Bibledingers I think you need to open your mind.
And to respond to your conclusion, God can use us to perform his miracles and he can certainly do that with Mary. That’s the easiest way to put it
But if protestants believe and follow what the bible says, and if in revelations says that saints pray for us than why not believe?
The martyrs are praying for their own vengeance in revelation so that verse was misused. Also, the 4th point he needs to justify is that we can communicate with specific dead saints about specific things.
@@Bibledingers why do Catholics blatantly read that verse out of context. Notice what they say isn't even prayer for living saints, they are literally asking God a knowledge question, not a request for blessing or action...
@@arcguardian 🤷♂
Where in the Bible does it say that only God is omnipresent ? Angels are outside of space and time, Mary has a glorified body which is no longer bond by space and time. Angels and saints can see and hear in the light of God
Where in the Bible does it say that angels and Mary are outside of space and time?
@@Bibledingers in my view I don’t believe everything should be explicitly stated in The Bible. This belief is actually self contradicting since the Bible itself doesn’t say that you should find everything explicitly in the Bible. I am asking you where does the Bible say that only God is omnipresent since this is your belief and your argument. Angels are spiritual beings, spiritual beings are not bound by space and time as humans are. In Catholic theology Mary has a glorified body which was assumed to Heaven this glorified body is no longer bond by space and time in the same way Christ’s glorified body is not bond by space and time. So it makes sense in a Catholic perspective to believe that angels and Mary who are in Heaven can see and perceive things differently then humans who are on Earth
When you call your friend on the phone, how do you know he is not on another call already? Are you assuming he is omnipresent and omniscient?
Time on earth has nothing to do with time in heaven.
This is the silliest most naive argument against praying to saints that I’ve ever heard.
Trent’s argument is unassailable.
Btw, Mary is the most holy saint in heaven because she is the queen of heaven (Rev 12) and the new Ark of the Covenant (Luke 1; Rev 11).
Ok so you agree that she can only hear 1 prayer at a time? Because the friend you called doesn’t have an infinite amount of ears and phones to listen to each incoming call at the same time.
@@Bibledingers No, I’m just pointing out how moot your point is.
Even going with your naive interpretation, nothing of what Trent says implies deification (which, according to you, would imply a deification of all saints, not just Mary).
Again, Trent’s argumentation is unassailable and proves to Protestants that the practice of praying to saints is absolutely biblical and reasonable.
You don’t want to follow this practice? Free to do so, but please don’t come lecture Catholics on how idolatrous they are, based on silly objections.
Are there clocks and calendars in heaven? Can God make those in heaven aware of the petitions asked of them?
There will be seasons, if there aren't already. God can't make the petitions known if it displeases Him to do so.
Imagine your wife's ex boyfriend is trying to seduce her to return to him but you intercept the message. Can you forward the ex's wishes? Obviously yes, but do you? Ur asking the wrong question, about God. God is omnipotent and sovereign so asking "can He?", as if that's the key argument against praying to the dead, is illogical.
There is no dogmatic explanations for how the saints hear us if they do. Personally, I take the imagery that candles are prayers as well as from Revelation prayers being incense. The logic goes that for the Saints in Heaven each written prayer is a candle, and each patronage an incense holder in heaven. so we say the hail mary, right? well that candle is lit but as we say the words, our requests fill the incense holder designated for that kind of intention; so as the Saints in Heaven pray to God about these things happening on earth, the incense goes with them to the LORD our GOD
Whatever you say
@@Bibledingers was that meant to sound rude and non ecumenical? that's how it comes off
You should ask Trent Horn to have a dialogue about Marian doctrines.
I’d definitely be open to the conversation, although Catholicism isn’t quite might strongest subject. I can just see when there are logical fallacies being made! :)
@@Bibledingers Of course you wouldn't. He would wipe the floor with your nonsense; although very politely.
@@39knights what did I say that’s nonsensical?
@@Bibledingers For one your false statement that because Mary may have to listen to two prayers at once; that it would make her omniscient as God is!!!! You really didn't think that one through. First in heaven time itself does not exist; at least not as it does here on Earth. The souls there have entered the Eternity of Heaven which is vastly different than the passage of time for us here on Earth.
Secondly there are many instances of great Catholic Saints (most recent being Padre Pio in the 1960's); who were given the ability by God to bilocate here on Earth. The Creator of the Universe could quite easily give to a person of His choosing whatever gift He wants. If this gift includes the ability to hear and answer 5 billion prayers in a single moment; then that is still absolutely nowhere even close to being Omniscient or Omnipresent as God is. It simply means they have a far greater gift than you will ever have. Samson was given the gift of the strength of 10 men; that didn't make him all-powerful like God. Really!!! If this is the best you can do; Trent would definitely chew you up like a marshmallow.
Since Mary was Assumed into heaven (which is the universal belief of the biblical Christian community since the Apostles); she would now be in her resurrected body and none of us here on Earth have any idea what God has in store for us in our resurrected bodies. It took me only seconds to see through your failure in logic and I'm not even a bright or trained apologist like Trent.
All I can say is that if issue the challenge and he accepts; prepare to have your self-imagined self-ordained beliefs obliterated. As the saying goes in my area; I've seen the man jump over much bigger to get at much better. Good luck.
@@Bibledingersif you can see when the fallacies are being made, you could point them out in conversation with him. You don’t have to be well versed in Catholicism. If you were, you’d probably be Catholic ;)
Are you serious???
Jesus absolutely has and maintains the closest relationship with His mother the lady Theotokos.
👌🏻👌🏻
@@Bibledingers sigh does Jesus honour His mother? According to His law?
Thanks for this, so important to call this out
Thanks for watching Jeremy!
He didn't call out anything except Bibledinger revealed his own error in logic. His whole argument rests on thinking that just because a saint in Heaven can hear and answer more than two prayers at once; somehow makes them equal to God or Omniscient/Omnipresent. That is an absolutely ridiculous and childish mode of thinking.
That would be like me saying; science says the Universe is infinite, and religion holds that God is Infinite: thus scientists are wrong for deify-ing the Universe??? see how dumb that is. His argument is no different; or any better.
Did not the Apostles heal the sick, raise the dead, and forgive sins!!! Who can do that but God alone!!! Wouldn't that also be deify-ing the Apostles???? Of course not. Anyone reading the scriptures would easily understand the Apostles could only do these things because God was working through them for this to happen. Likewise Catholics fully understand that Mary and the other Saints in Heaven are only capable of doing what they do because God continues to work through them.
This is the kind of stuff we teach our children. You would thing a grown man would know better.
@@39knights thank you for speaking the truth in love.
What would the significance be of the Isrealites praying to Rachel to intercede on their behalf to God?
Interestingly, you use the word “deify.” Did you know that in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, there is a teaching called deification or theosis wherein a soul is really transformed to attain the likeness to and union with God? The basic idea is that the God became man so that man might become God (CCC 460), sharing in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and living in the Spirit. The saints in heaven, having been sanctified, are made “god-like” compared to us on earth, and it is only proper to honor these victors.
However, this does not mean they are now gods in the same caliber as God, be very careful to avoid equivocating the two. This is the reason behind having a distinction between _dulia_ (veneration) and _latria_ (adoration). Latria is the root word in idolatry and typically involves some form of sacrifice; if someone gave worth to a saint at the same level as the Trinity, that is idolatry. Just something interesting to consider.
It would seem there’d be a hierarchy of relationships to Jesus in heaven if we consider passages about rewards for righteous deeds done in Christ. Consider 1 Corinthians 3:11-17 where depending on what was built upon the foundation, the person would be rewarded. Mary supposedly having the highest reward can be gleaned from her perfect fiat at the annunciation.
I don’t think Mary receiving multiple prayers (requests to pray for them) at one time necessitates that she’s omnipresent like God is. For one, I think this assumes that time is the same here on earth as it is in heaven. Also, Mary has all of eternity to pray for us, and it’s even reasonable to say that our prayers can “time travel” because God beholds all time in one moment. Secondly, I think you also equivocate on omnipresence. Let’s say Mary needs superpowers to hear and respond to so many prayers at on everything; this doesn’t mean she’s “omnipresent,” more like “superpresent” or something. God can heighten her abilities (to bring home the point about deification) to accomplish her role as an intercessor, but as for giving her God’s own nature to be present everywhere in creation at the same time. It is only by the power of God that a saint is even able to pray for us, the same way it is His power that makes it possible for us on earth to pray for each other; this is the Body of Christ, the Church, of which Christ is the head.
So, what level of awareness do think the saints in heaven have of the prayers of the saints on Earth, as in Revelation 5:8? I am not sure why it follows that in order for Christ to give the saints an awareness of our prayers he has to make them omniscient and omnipresent. Also, from a language precision perspective, deification a.k.a. theosis has a specific meaning in Christian theology which is not the same as being equal to God. So, saying that God deifies the saints should not be problematic. I assume you are not using the word in that sense but mean you think Trent is making Mary equal to God.
So God is constantly and consistently making dead saints aware of our requests for them to pray for us in real time? Or has He granted them omniscience and omnipresence in order to hear all of our prayers?
Who would have the closest relationship with Jesus?!?!? Sheesh
The verse that talks about this is in the book of 2nd Opinions
Ps. Nobody in Pittsburg is praying to Mary
😂😂 this could be either an insult or a compliment.
NO MARY NO CATHOLICISM!
@@lupelo8819 TRUE, NO MARY NO JESUS either
@@essafats5728 Actually it is Know Mary, Know Jesus ----No Mary, No Jesus.
@@39knights 🙏 💓 Peace Be With You
Mary's role in intercession with Jesus
John 2:3-5:When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you.
Jesus did change the water into wine....
Are you attempting to say that this applies to Mary being omnipresent?
@@Bibledingers Mary is not omnipresent on her own but by the grace of God. God has elevated Mary above all not of her own righteousness buts Gods grace.
@@amadorlugo2698 what verse can I find to support that?
@@Bibledingers It’s not an explicit verse it’s implicit. Show me the verse that says all doctrine must come out of the Bible ?
@@amadorlugo2698 and where is her omnipresence implied?
You are arguing as if she is still in the earthly realm
You are arguing as if she is omnipresent
If you consider this deifying Mary, you need to have a higher view of God not a lower view of Mary. Our Lady can do these things not by her own power, but by grace. God grants her the grace to hear the prayers. To say God could not grant her that grace, would be rather odd.
Well God could do a lot of things. That doesn’t mean He does. What’s your basis in scripture?
@@Bibledingers Where is it in scripture that it says Catholics are not deifying Mary? Cuz that's what I'm responding to. Where does it say in the Bible that you aren't a heretic? The question doesn't make sense.
@@CatholicConversations what verses in scripture do you use to support your original comment that God grants grace to Mary to hear prayers?
@@Bibledingers Where does it say in the Bible that God only grants graces that can be found in the Bible?
@@CatholicConversations you’re right. Based on that logic, I decide that according to my church tradition, that God has granted me with the power to fly.
See this people with there sides tlk...can u ever ask him to have a discussion with u
"God became man that man might become God". This quote from St. Athanasius in the 4th century succinctly sums up the purpose of the Gospel: namely, the divinization/deification of mankind. This is a divinization not of the essence of the person, but of the will, such that the finite will of man becomes entirely assumed into the infinite will of the Holy Trinity. The perfection (or divinization) of the will of the Virgin Mary is so great that there can be no distinction made between her will and the will of God, for it is by her will (which always has been and always will be in submission to God's will) that the Son of God became the Son of Mary (Luke 1:38).
Uh oh. Trent horn response video coming in three….. two….. one…..
As the apostle Paul requests that we make intercession for others, that's why we also ask the holy Virgin Mary, mother of God and our own blessed mother to intercede for us. As a matter of fact, we may ask any saint in the light to intercede for us. The bible says that the prayer of a righteous person is very effective and Mary is God's perfect work of redemption. I've watched many of Trent's videos and It's wrong to accuse him of deifying the holy Virgin Mary. He has a solid knowledge and understanding of the holy word of God. The saints in heaven are not in time but in the spirit. Time is measured on earth by the motion of earth around the sun but it might be quite different in heaven. We need to exercise faith and reason.
Is she omnipresent?
@@Bibledingers Go ahead and be sarcastic but you won't learn a thing though.
@@davidfabien7220 I’m not being sarcastic.
Where does the Bible say Mary is God’s perfect work of redemption? Where does the Bible say Mary is our mother?
You have made a category error/leap...Paul requests others pray but they are living people...He doesn't apply that to those that have passed or "fallen asleep".
Good job! As Matt Slick says, Mary would have to be able to hear prayers from everyone all over the world at the same time and in their languages.
We are not to pray TO anyone but God. Why would we anyway? Is God too busy?
As Mike Gendron says, it's like putting a golden calf in place and appealing to it instead of God. And we know how that turned out.
Not well!
If the saints and angels are better at presenting your intentions and prayers to God, why not ask them to help you out? Why ask anybody on earth to pray for you if it does not help? Also, asking for the intercession of the saints does not mean you should stop praying to God.
@@danielshea9264 did you watch the video? Saints are not omnipresent or omniscient. Praying to saints doesn’t do anything, besides potentially breaking OT laws against divination/trying to speak to the dead.
@@Bibledingers just because a saint can intercede for many does not mean they are omnipresent, it just means that God allows them to be able to hear and answer those prayers. Also, Jesus conquered death and those who are in heaven are alive in Christ. Another thing, in the OT trying to talk to the dead was wrong because of how the people would try to talk to the dead. They tried to use earthly mediums and sometimes demonic mediums as a means to contact the dead, which is wrong. Now, God has bridged that gap via His death and resurrection. Just a note, we still should not use earthly mediums to try to contact the dead.
@@danielshea9264 but how exactly are they hearing all these prayers?
Yes Catholics adore and worship Mary than Jesus Christ the King! Roman Catholicism cut a solid material and carved it into an image(a physical likeness or representation of a person,animal,statue or thing) to bow down to it to worship it!Psalms97:7...CONFOUNDED-(BEWILDERED:CONFUSED;PERPLEXED) BE ALL THEY THAT SERVE GRAVEN IMAGES,THAT BOAST THEMSELVES OF IDOLS.2JOHN:5:21...LITTLE CHILDREN,KEEP YOURSELVES FROM "IDOLS".MARY WORSHIP IS BLASPHEMOUS AND IDOLATRY!
If Catholics 'worship' Mary more than God, can you show me where the Catholic Church has authorized the celebration of the Mass as a sacrifice to Mary?
Keep showing the world ur ignorance.
p.s pull up ur pants, it's embarassing
I don’t believe it’s biblical that dead saints are watching us here on earth. Other than that, good video 👍🏻
I don’t necessarily agree with it either. I can just see how someone would be able to use/abuse the Bible to support that position.
I would say the 30,000+ denominations of Protestantism in the world is a good example of Bible use/abuse
@@laurynojeda9223 red herring
@@Bibledingers what do you mean?
the saints aren't dead.