Mormon Temple Ordinances in 1889
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- Newspaper: uncorrelatedmormonism.com/wp-...
Account: uncorrelatedmormonism.com/tem...
In 1889 a newspaper of the time, the Elmira Telegram, received information about the ceremonies currently being performed in the LDS Endowment House. Interestingly, shortly before this account went to print the LDS Endowment House itself was ordered to be destroyed by President Woodruff. The newspaper itself though is admittedly not pro-Mormon, however the contemporary nature of this account makes it a very fascinating study. The following account is taken from the newspaper.
I never made it this far before leaving. Things just didn't seem right but it did feel like a cult. Its full of loving wonderful people, it's a shame
It is a bit of a shame. Many people feel like they are doing God's will however a lot are worshipping God with their mouths only.
I took out my endowment August 1989 only 4 months before the penalties were removed. I credit that day with my finding my way out of the cult. I was shocked to stand in front of my smiling parents as I performed the rituals of slicing my throat and my disembowelment. I had NO idea that would happen that day. I felt betrayed, scared, shocked, and now grateful I had that experience that began the long process if opening my eyes. It took until 1994 to officially leave but man I'm glad I did!!!
The endowment is already so different from every other church environment that I can't imagine going through before 1990. I understand the penalties are linked to the OT, but really it is very strange with no preparation.
The LDS church says it is 'sacred' not 'secret' however in reality it is just secret. I don't understand why the entire thing can't just be informed consent. Why does any of it need to be sprung on anyone?
They didn't remove the penalties they just hid them. Think about your hands at one part of the session and you can see through it.
@@lillianleigh7316 That is an interesting thing to consider.
I experienced these abominations in the lds temple in 1988 and was severely shocked too. We had so much of our whole lives revovled around this culture that leaving wasnt an option until 2020 I was able to be freed due to covid rules when churches closed
@@carmengale3311 Covid was a blessing in several ways.
Very fascinating video, thank you for sharing this.
The Church could not possibly refute any of these steamy allegations, without coming clean, and revealing what has been kept secret for so many years. I have never seen the Church apologize for anything; if that’s what being hoped for, best wishes.
Oaks came right out and said "We don't apologize".
I knew that Brigham had adopted Cochranism, but I didn't know it was this bad. This whole dang thing reinforces the fact that the endowment is 50% Cochranism, 50% Freemasonry, and 0% anything to do with Joseph Smith.
I would ask if you were willing to do a video on Freemasonry and specifically its influence on Nauvoo and Utah, but I'm afraid you might be ticking off the wrong people if you do.
Thanks again. Very enlightening.
I do have a video on Freemasonry in Nauvoo planned and have done a ton of research into it. It is pretty interesting.
There are so many interesting things in the early church. Without a doubt the church today is fundamentally different from the 1835 or 1844 church.
Where can I learn about something similar to the endowment within Cochranism? AI was no help, it seemed to think such thing didn't exist.
@@DanaPrice-os9hh The group Hemlock Knots has a youtube channel and website where they break down all the ugly Church history problems and when Cochranism became introduced among the early Apostles while they were on missions. It would appear that many of these early Apostles were adulterers and Cochranism gave them exactly the reason they needed to satiate their evil desires. Rob Fotheringham also has videos that discuss the early days of polygamy and that JSJr had nothing to do with it. None of these resources talks about the rites within Cochranism, though, so I'm not sure where you'll get that info from. The part about plurality of wives is the Cochranism part but I'm not sure what else is.
Contracts and Temple Covenants:
In our law which is just, self-ownership (personal sovereignty ) must exist if one is to be free, hence subject to judgement under the law. Contracts, similar to Covenants, are nullified in law when the person entering the contract is: 1.) Uninformed. 2.) Pressured. 3.) Deceived. Temple Covenants are invalidated for any one or all of those same reasons:
1.) When Secret because the new candidate on entering into the Temple “Covenants” is uninformed. In other words, one must fully understand what are the Temple Covenants that one will make before deciding to go on a Church mission or deciding to be Temple married for which the Church requires the “Covenants” be taken. They cannot be secret.
2.) When Pressure of any kind exist, then the Covenants are invalid. The Church has an incentive to use pressure because it is a beneficiary of each new Covenant faithfully lived. It gains for itself the promise that one’s time, labor, and life choices shall satisfy whatever it may require of the inductee.
While creating and administering the Covenants to new missionaries and to new couples married in the Temple, the Church is creating pressure by claiming that it is the only right and true Church, and that its Temple Covenants must be entered into if one is to gain exaltation in the next life.
3.) When the Church Misrepresents itself to the Temple candidate, the Covenants are invalidated. The Church is a party to the Covenants, it benefits from them, it creates and administers them. It therefore has an obligation to the other party, the Temple candidate, who is trusting the Church’s representation to be honest. Unfortunately, the Church is manipulating the Candidate, hiding information about itself, giving false and deceptive and misleading and incomplete information, thereby invalidating the Covenants because consent is uninformed.
www.fnhenderson.us/TempleTemptations.pdf
Very good analysis. Makes perfect sense when you look at things that way.
Excellent points
I think we should be asking if God authorized the endowment described in this video! All I could think was, “This sounds like a cult, this sounds like a cult.” Maybe subsequent church leaders realized how unpalatable it was and over the years have slowly made it more palatable.
This account may be sensationalized to a degree. However the softening of the endowment overall is exactly what we have seen over time. The penalties are removed after the 1987 survey. The oaths of vengeance are removed. The false preachers section is removed. Satan's part is greatly diminished. Women no longer covenant to obey husbands.
Basically every aspect that people generally disliked is removed. Some I certainly understand however what does this softening over time mean for us as a church?
@@uncorrelatedmormonismIt means we're ripe for destruction. Plain and Simple. Fair Mormon's response to this is beyond horrifying. They didn't deny any of it. This is like, satanic PR. Throwing Joseph Smith under the bus over and over.
Thanks to your video, I now have a new theory on Adam God from BY.
The article said Brigham liked to play Elohim, you know, to be the most powerful, watch everyone naked in front of him and watch Adam and Eve have sex.
What's better than that?
Being BOTH Elohim AND Adam so you are the most powerful and you have sex with Eve, live, in front of a bunch of naked people.
Is this real guys? Is this really happening?!
This was so excellent! I am studying chronologically, so I was waiting to watch this for that reason. It was painful to listen to, I think I took 5 breaks and long walks to clear my head before continuing. Hats off to you for your excellent delivery, that could not have been easy to read in a serious tone. I always appreciate your balanced approach and delivery, makes it easier to process hard truths. It’s not like I haven’t seen this coming for 20 years, but still more comes out. I have family more deeply entrenched, and your videos are easier to share with them. Thank you for what you do; it is making more of an impact than you know.🙏❤️🇺🇸
Thanks. I am glad I can help.
Thanks for this video and keep ‘em coming.
they didn't just endorsed polygamy, they forced it through fear.
Truly weird to see my parents and in-laws waiting for me in the celestial room. Saw my soon to be hubby waiting and was happy to be getting married soon. 45 years later, we are out, decided that we will follow each other to hell if we have to!
The endowment has been so simplified that I am sure many now don't really know what the issue is. They assume it always was the way it currently is.
I like how it was still called "the Mormon church". So obviously, Nelson is creating a new, a different church.
In many ways this is a different church.
Like Brigham did
The name was changed after someone in the accounting department turned the church in to IRS for a hidden account worth 50 Billion. Article appears in the Financial Times.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism Different from the one Joseph established.
Nelson told us to eat our vitamins and get plenty of rest because he’s going to fully restore the restored church. I have no idea what that means except to keep parishioners hanging on expecting some type of miraculous event or revelation they might miss. Lol.
How about, Did God authorize the endowment at all? If so, where is the original transcript/revelation?
Also, this "endowment" seems very protestant. I think it is interesting that God, Jehovah, Christ, and Satan are all individual people within it... specifically Christ and Jehovah. For me, I believe them to be the same person.
Thank you for making this video. It's very fascinating to me the appalling things that went on. This reminds me of the Netflix sensation Keep Sweet, Pray, Obey, that is about the fundamental LDS. They also believe the men need at least two wives to get into heaven according to that 4 part series.
Men pervert religion, in the name of God, and then think that is perfectly normal.
I’m very curious, is there any way to know what the “foul and disgusting“ things that were actually said? I’m just wondering what it could have been. I’m pretty shocked by this information.
I am not sure. I would imagine the dialog pertained to marriage or the union of Adam and Eve because that was the context.
The record itself did say the marriages were consummated in heaven. Today we ascribe a specific meaning to that word however previously that word was more similar to 'complete'.
I don't recall the specifics however I did find another newspaper account which all the same general points.
I don’t think I want to know the disgusting stuff! This was enough, thank you very much!
Ok I’m curious- I want to know
I thought the whole process was weird when I went through in the late 2000's but this is absolutely wild. Our ancestors sat around naked and watched a live action porno, and then laid on a table with a knife to their throat threatening them not to tell anyone about it?
It has certainly changed a lot over the years.
I remember your video on this topic last year and have recommended it many times . Blew my mind and I’ve been devout for 64 years! Wow! 😮
I think it is very interesting to see how things have changed and how they have stayed the same.
I really like your videos and I appreciate the link you provided for the newspaper article. And looking at the PDF file or the article that you link the page is missing a section of it it's covered in black on the left-hand side is there anyway to see that whole page without that missing part?
I have not found a better copy. I suppose I would have to go to the original microfiche and see what it looks like.
Thank you for this video! Very insightful.
This is disgusting but it doesn't surprise me. Brigham really screwed things up after Joseph was murdered.
Thanks for your good work.
I think we will be shocked when we eventually understand what is from God and what was created by man.
Hindsight is 20/20 and everyone loves to be a Monday morning QB.
Be that as it may, whilst I'm still trying to understand all I can about the faith, from all different angles, I will say from my experience, the LDS is leagues better than the fka rLDS (now the Community of Christ). So whilst brother Brigham was certainly not on brother Joseph's level, the current outcome of his leadership is better than his counterparts.
@@Saint_nobody I understand what you mean however we have honestly thrown out almost all the doctrines the Brigham introduced.
However we still have the leadership structure that he left.
I would say though that judging the continuation of an organization as to its validity is a strange argument to make.
Christ's "church" withered almost immediately.
God's original "church" was so corrupt he literally killed everyone except 8 people.
The millennial "church" will enjoy 1000 years a peace and then abandon God again.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism "I myself am, strange and unusual" and my ongoing experiences with, for lack of a better word, Theosis (a term respectfully borrowed from the orthodoxy), no less proves such merit. Therewith, yeah, the strength of the organization of the LDS church is certainly the most appealing aspect for me, though ultimately I would resign to believing what the Alpha & Omega told the young Joseph, that no church is true.
@@Saint_nobody it doesn't matter because both are cults.
Fascinating...
"Ask and you shall receive..."
I proclaim my faith in uncommon circles, especially hereabouts UA-cam. Of course, detractors come out of the midst to try abs shake me off such foundation. As they challenge my beliefs, I challenge their knowledge. Somewhere in between, be the cold unfeeling feeling algorithms or someone tempered behind another screen behind the scenes, puts this video in my feed. I listen with a discerning ear and go forth ponder what I did hear... looking forward to conference this weekend to further my wisdom and understanding with this bit of detail as well on me mind pressing.
Sincerely, the worst Mormon. 😉
We can certainly find truth in many places.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism "the truth is out there". Lucky for me, I'm an Outsider (Cue Green Day's cover of a Ramones classic).
@@uncorrelatedmormonism yes, we have learnt from the prophet how to flatten plastic bottles. I assume this will be added to the next temple ceremony update.
LOL @@charlesmendeley9823
is that account saying that there was real or simulated sex as part of the temple ceremony?
are we sure this article is legit and not fabricated later?
I am really not sure to be honest. The record was clear that occasionally everyone would be naked.
The record itself says it was "too disgusting for print" which could mean a lot of things.
I honestly could go both ways on this however if I had to choose one it would be "real" or at least very close to real.
That is a good question. I have no indication that it is fabricated. The library of congress says that this newspaper is on microfilm in an Elmira, NY library. I am not out east unfortunately.
Since it has been put forth that sime of the polygamist groups claim to honor the original teachings and some of what took place and objects identified in one particular groups "temple"..leaves many to believe that if not always at least on certain occurances this depiction is likely accurate...
Coming from a newspaper makes this story very suspect but I would sure like to know how things were done in earlier ceremonies.
Yes, the hard thing though is the church itself would never release any information directly which I don't understand.
Nothing in the temple is anything that can't be out in the open.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism That is so true.
@@uncorrelatedmormonismI disagree. It’s a literal gift from god according to LDS adherents and the word “endowment” denotes that. Spoiling that gift in a non-spiritual setting is not ideal, hence its sacredness. You don’t have to agree, I’m just explaining it. In 2023 eyes, where nothing spiritual is holy anymore and this type of meditation or ceremony is considered sexual (of course, what isn’t considered sexual or weird if it has religious significance in 2023?) nothing makes sense to many people. I never felt violated in any form of the endowment or the “washings” or the anointings. Orthodox Christians did several versions of the endowment under different names from what I understand. I wish people would just let us worship in our own manner, without mocking it. Disaffected members have the right to scoff, so do outsiders and they will. I wish we could all just be kinder. Proselyting is not unkind, inviting others to partake is not unkind, participation in sacred rituals that aren’t always understood is not weird, just misunderstood.
@@dcarts5616 What I find strange is that mainstream mormons segregate everyone into 2 camps. You are either a full believing member or an anti-mormon.
I may not reach the same conclusions as others however what I share on this channel is 100% verifiable facts. Most claim that is anti-mormon because they don't know what truth actually is.
I honestly don't care what people believe or worship if it is a sincere belief. However pointing out facts concerning the belief should never be viewed as a negative thing. The Pharisees developed a stranglehold over the people because few were willing to point out the incorrectness of their positions.
@@dcarts5616 What do you think about the Masons and their endowment ceremonies that pre-dated the LDS temple endowment? There are very interesting videos and discussions on this on UA-cam. I'm also curious when you went thru for the first time. I went thru in the early 80's and I had to slit my throat etc, had to make covenants to my husband who covenanted to God, had to cover my face, had to be naked while oil touched on parts of my body etc. These are all not in the ceremony today so what does that say for what I did? What do you think about after the church fell into financial distress that temple rites were tied to paying money? The church now has so much money that in 1997 they had to start Ensign Peak Advisors and an account to place the money in.
How do you interpret Moses on mt Sanai. Many interprets god telling them to change and put on clean clothes as endowment and the cloud being the veil.
That is a valid question. I think though that we can interpret anything to mean anything.
For instance, we are all unclean so we should worship naked.
Verbal prayers are beneath God so we should pray mathematically.
God's creations are better than man's so we should worship in the trees.
God used the rainbow as a sign of a covenant so we should have everything rainbow colored.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism valid point. I got in a fight with a friend today when I asked about how unsure I was of the endowment being necessary when those covenants are already things I would do within my baptismal covenant. He got upset and told me the endowment is all over the scriptures and pointed to that example.
@@skwirl828 I see. I wasn't trying to be snarky just making a point that people can see what they want to see.
Members have interpreted the "mysteries of God" as being the LDS endowment or Nephi going to a mountain as the endowment since he was told unspeakable things.
Of course, both could be true however how is the endowment a mystery or even unspeakable?
The LDS endowment today is rather basic, not a mystery, fully contained within the baptismal covenant, and certainly speakable.
I do agree that the second you mention things against any temple ordinance then it is like you just crossed a line with members and you are now poison.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism oh I didn’t take your comment as snark at all. No worries there. He tried telling me that I was unworthily partaking of the sacrament because of my view.
@@skwirl828 "Worthy" before God is such a strange concept.
Share with him the parable of the Pharisee and the publican from Luke 18.
People in the church are largely delusional about God and spirituality, yet they are very happy in their delusion.
When they realize the truth then at first they can be very angry and sad. Members look at this and then say, see those feelings are "bad" and so they are not of God.
However, they fail to realize that almost all our interactions with God are "bad" until we accept his will and follow it. Correcting a bent tree is "bad" until it is strong and straight.
In the church I was on spiritual autopilot because that is what I was taught. Now I am a master of my spirituality and I have never been closer to God.
OMGosh!!! Is this for real? I just read the newspaper article. I hope there are corroborating sources.
Some of it may be sensational. However everything it mentions is generally backed by proven records.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism what proven records? I'm having a hard time accepting that it actually happened this way (though I wouldn't be TOO surprised if it did). How can we know this wasn't embellished for the newspaper to look extra bad for the church, and that these things actually happened?
@@calineilson4764 Strictly speaking it is impossible to verify it happened exactly as recorded in the article.
However I am meaning the larger points are all proven such as the oaths, penalties, oath of vengeance and such.
The endowment itself has been slowly softened over time.
Brigham Young said, "Every one who had passed through their endowment, in the Temple, were placed under the most sacred obligation to avenge the blood of the Prophet, whenever an opportunity offered, and to teach their children to do the same, thus making the entire Mormon people sworn and avowed enemies of the American nation".
In 1906, John Hawley testified before congress, "I went to Salt Lake City in 1856. They gave the endowments of washing and anointing, and then there was an oath taken in Utah to avenge the blood of the prophet... In taking the endowments at Salt Lake there was the oath required, and the oath that was required was to 'avenge the death or blood of the prophet.' We were made to swear to avenge the death of Joseph Smith the Martyr, together with that of his brother Hyrum, on this American nation, and that we should teach our children and children's children to do so. 'The penalty for this grip and oath was disembowelment,' I would not have discussed the method of these endowments when I was a member of the Utah Church. The penalty for revealing or disclosing these secrets was disembowelment."
@@uncorrelatedmormonism thank you for the response! That is very interesting (those quotes). It's also very interesting the way some things are similar to the endowment even now (at least prior to the most recent update, of which I haven't witnessed yet). It seems that the person or people who gave this newspaper this info knew a lot of details. On the one hand, some details are specific enough that they seem to be accurate when we compare it to the endowment today. On the other hand, I wonder how they could remember so many details from the ceremony, especially verbatim. Even though I have been many times (though not even close to as often as a lot of members), it would be hard for me to disclose the ceremony in such detail. I wonder how often they went through endowments back then (do you know? Was it once or multiple times?)...
If they went multiple times, do you know if an endowment always included the sealings as it's described here? They couldn't just be endowed without the polygamy/sealing portions of it? If not, does that mean they were potentially performing these sealings, ritualistically, multiple times? OR did everyone only go through once?
@@calineilson4764 Starting in 1876 members were allowed to go through the endowment as a proxy. At one time in my life, I went through the endowment weekly and probably could write the ceremony down with a high degree of accuracy immediately after. Due to the nature of this it seems like it may be the entertainment of the day and certainly would be a place to associate with the prominent people of the day.
I am not sure if sealing were always a part of it however it seems logical to conclude they probably were since that was such a major part of it. If you were doing work for someone else then you would likely seal them to someone as a conclusion.
Seems like a faithful account of the actual content, with some crazy salacious $hizz mixed in to sell newspapers. Since I did the washing & anointing prior to 2005 when you no longer had to be naked under a cloth shield for it, I can believe the naked bathing part at the beginning. I would bet that the newspaper story made the nakedness continue for longer than that for effect.
I can see being naked in the garden since it would be "authentic". There is nothing inherently wrong about being naked.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism Of course there's nothing inherently wrong with it. But then being brought at least mostly naked into a room with men and women in mixed company, and a particularly attractive naked lady in front as Eve? C'mon, man.
Chief midegah of the ojibwe nation and the birch bark scrolls. They also have a similar (but better) temple ceremony
The LDS temple ceremony is at best symbolic and at worst, inspired by Satan. I am not sure why you would want to fully embrace that.
Do you honestly think you need to get passwords and special signs in order to give them to angels on your way to God? This makes no sense.
Why cut out the beginning of the article that says Brigham Young made the endowments? Is it bc of your personal beliefs?
That black section on the left? I didn't cut that out. That was already removed from the original I have. Do you have a copy with that section still there?
This video also is making no claims about who created the Endowment as it would be 55 years after the supposed creation at least.
We do not know everything included in "Joseph's endowment", but it did not include oaths of vengeance, which were definitely introduced by Brigham. It is unlikely that Brigham remembered all the parts without introducing errors. Also, much is lifted from the Masons.
The curious thing is that the Book of Mormon includes special warnings to gentiles on these topics: (1) Corrupt leadership who are interested in money and power rather than caring for the poor and those in need. (2) Secret combinations with secret oaths. (3) The "Holy church of God" has been allowed to become corrupt.
I have heard many weird things about the temple but I had never heard that the people who played Adam and Eve where actually naked. What are there references for that?
It's hard to know for sure. They were prudish back then, but nakedness is a core part of the Garden.
In the description there are links to the newspaper and the article I wrote about it.
Even if the participants were clothed in the garment, then the garment of the time had a huge open crotch.
This was so interesting, but I had to take some breaks. The lip smacking sound was killing me.
Yes, I am sorry. Things have improved since I first recorded. Building a channel like this is a learning experience for me.
My g-g-g-g-grandfather acted the part of the devil and was so known in SLC when this ritual was performed in the Endowment House there, prior to the temple being built.
I cannot imagine him in a black velvet jumpsuit with skullcap and large flaps for ears.
His name, aside from "the judge", and "the devil" was William Wines Phelps
Thanks for sharing. I find mormon history very interesting. It would be very interesting for a mormon today to go back in time and experience mormonism then and get their thoughts or do the reverse. I don't think the church today or back then would recognize each other.
Brigham Young created this in complete opposition to what Joseph taught.
I personally think Joseph introduced it either as a test for the saints or because his eyes were covered and he started to go his own way.
@Uncorrelated Mormonism the oath of vengeance is a clear indicator that it was created after Joseph.
I think Joseph was referring to a spiritual endowment such as what happened in the Kirtland temple.
I think everything masonic and cochranit-ish came from Brigham and his secret band. Idk 🤷♂️
@@uncorrelatedmormonism it's also interesting or telling to note that we don't know for sure. There is no revelation through Joseph or even any definitive teachings. To me it falls under the questionable category, similar to polygamy. Which I believe is a clear indicator of false accusations and lies.
@@didjosephsmithpracticepolygamy Yes, I can agree to that. The LDS church has based a lot of their doctrine on highly questionable things.
All of this has cult written all over it. I’m speechless ……
I’m confused I can’t make head nor tail out of it all, I remember being told in a dream during a time of inactivity I was quite young at the time the Lord said or maybe it was holy spirt “If you don’t keep ordinances you won’t be numbered among my people” The temple ordinance may not of been quite right at the time maybe that’s why it keeps changing and it will go on changing until it’s perfected. when men are given a bit of power it can go to their heads and they want to leave their own mark on things and do stuff their way, it’s quite possible that all that throat cutting in the temple ordinance was not from God but mans idea that’s why it had to go and prejudice against black peoples was not from God either!
It is confusing. I totally agree.
I think though the idea that, "it is perfect now", is never going to end. If though that it is good now, but was not good previously, then that means all the ordinances will have to be redone. Otherwise, does God honor good intentions? Can you enter God's kingdom without baptism if you really thought you could? Does God honor a sprinkling baptism because you really want him to?
There is a lot of questions and nothing is really clear. However God doesn't change yet I know men change things all the time.
It seems a stretch to believe there was nudity and sex (real or simulated) in the endowment. But then again so does having dozens of wives. These poor people just needed modern idolatry.
It is certainly hard to believe considering our attitudes today. I think polygamy and sex obsession certain go together. Candidates being nude for the bathing I can see them transition nude to the next part. However that could be socially awkward probably.
Up to the fall though it took roughly six hours of time. What did they do during that entire time?
Why have a 9 hour endowment session?
@@uncorrelatedmormonism It’s actually quite comical. Let’s get you all cleaned up for your adult entertainment!
@@houseofwool It's supposed to be a holy sacrament, right? 😃
It reminds me of what the FLDS do in their temple. Or at least what Warrens Jeffs did in it.
@@lisatreelove9278 I just read about that. It is crazy that people would be okay with that.
However, I guess you get to a certain point in a group where it is just easier to go along than leave.
I recommend reading The Mysteries of Godliness by David John Buerger. Also, I recommend viewing the article with as much suspicion as you direct at the Church. Notice which parts the article drops description and leaves the mind of the reader to imagine the worst, such as the things taught by the false preachers. A non-LDS audience will automatically be offended by their preachers being labeled as false, but if they were told something like “teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scripture” that would possibly ring true to many non-LDS and cause them to have a reaction of curiosity instead of revulsion and condemnation. Obviously the article author was striving to create a particular response in the reader as authors do. So he left the words of the false preachers out with only a lurid explanation that the mind of the reader can fill in with everything that they hold sacred being condemned in the LDS Endowment.
I have that book and am planning on reading it. I am currently reading, "This is my Doctrine" by Charles R. Harrell. That book is fascinating and shows how LDS doctrine today has deviated from biblical Christianity and even from early LDS doctrine.
I agree that the newspaper article shouldn't be taken at face value. However every single major point is confirmed through other sources.
I heard hints of some these early temple practices from elderly folks years ago when I worked in the temple. But my gut tells me that some of it is sensationalism from the reporter trying to sell newspapers.
May be true. I think at the root though everything is already proven. For instance, oaths, penalties, the lecture, and false priests section are all already known.
I have doubts about having a naked woman representing Eve. At least I’m confident Joseph would’ve never done that.
@@thedailydump7407 I am not sure either. However, I think after a while in a polygamous society then women are seen as objects.
Brigham essentially referred to women as such on multiple occasions.
@@thedailydump7407 JS had NO part of this abomination of the Lord!!
I think we need original endowment. Pre 1990
We certainly need whatever is true and stick with that.
Michael is the arch angel who is actually Adam. Somehow Brigham decided that Adam was God and yet God told Michael to go and organize the world. Then Adam is the first man on earth. My question is, who is minding the store while Adam/God is here on the earth? This is why I can't and won't accept that God, Christ and the holy ghost are all the same body. God is one individual, Christ is one individual and the Holy Ghost is an individual. Who was minding the store while Christ/God is in Mary's womb and on until Christ dies?
This is absolutely satanic ☠️
so glad I'm out.
What can we do about it? We can bring it back.
This is just one of many spurious and malicious "exposes" of temple ordinances. I graduated from Illinois College, which was a center of anti-Mormonism during the Nauvoo Period. They had wonderful historical material on that period, including detailed accounts of temple ordinances as they were practiced at Nauvoo. The ordinances I received in the Salt Lake Temple in the 1960s had only minor differences. That Nauvoo generation was still living during Endowment House days, and I don't believe that practices there were overtly different from those practiced at Nauvoo. I have seen inspired modifications to temple ordinances during over a half century of participation. I don't see any change in the doctrine since the initial presentations at Nauvoo. I appreciate revealed modifications and recognize that Church membership and the society around us has significantly changed during my lifetime, as has accessibiltiy of these ordinances. In the 1960s, though living in Illinois, I lived within the Salt Lake Temple Distirct, and then Washington DC, then Chicago, then St. Louis, then the current Nauvoo Temple District.
Specifically though, what about this is not correct?
@@uncorrelatedmormonism, it is typical of malicious distortions and drastically different from early accounts of these ordinances. Before receiving my own endowment, I was familiar only with the detailed Nauvoo accounts. The only differences were very minor. In both cases, there is little resemblance to what is presented in this video.
@@hughmcharry5419 Can you actually list anything so we can discuss it?
Your questions don't seem logical. The video is based on a malicious account of practices that have no published and verifiable sources. I don't believe the accounts the video is based on are credible and explained why.
@@hughmcharry5419 You made a logical assertion and I asked for evidence, which you have not provided, then you say I am the illogical one.
As you read my many other comments, you can see that every single thing is backed up by other evidence.
Please pick one thing that you think is incorrect and we can discuss that.
This is all real? Pretty intense… was truly different times and I’m glad the temple ceremonies have changed from this.
I would just say you can know good people by their fruits and I have met many genuinely kind LDS people that go out of their way to help others serving one another. I’ve met some sour ones too of course.
Also thinking about your questions at the end - God authorizes changes through His Prophets. He reveals His will through His prophets. That’s a strong belief in the church and if you actually listen to the 98year old living prophet today or learn about his life you might be impressed. Certainly has had huge influence of peace in the world.
Lots of good people everywhere still if we can each do our part to care for those around us we can create a better world and future.
Lds or not - I don’t want anyone’s throat cut for changing their views. All have a right to think freely. That’s a gift from God.
I agree that God reveals things to true prophets. However today how can we know if the changes are from God or not when the words of God are never directly given to us?
Numerous scriptural prophets have said God gave them messages directly. Today we just have changes and then vague assumptions that God told them to change things.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism that’s true it does seem more vague now than what we read about.. if the prophet did say something like ‘The Lord commanded me to say/instruct…’ would people listen more careful perhaps? I wonder if it would make a difference.
As I understand, we need to confirm all things through the spirit and through our individual connection with God. I don’t like to say “I know” anything but God could really be trying to communicate through a living prophet who is Russel Nelson in subtle profound ways and it’s up to us to determine if his words are true or if it’s some kind of cult trap.. feels like the only motives in the LDS church is to promote faith in Jesus Christ and to follow His teachings…
If we have a Creator, then we are a piece of His creation, divinity, and we all have the power and freedom to spread good or bad vibes. To help or to hurt people. To lift people up or bring them down.
Listen to “peacemakers needed” ..it’s encouraging.
Why do you assume this is s valid account, vs a wildly false and sensationalized tabloid article by a disaffected Mormon that it reads lkre?
Is there anything specific you are referring to? From historical records we know all the major points is something that were in fact part of the LDS endowment at one point.
For instance, full body washing and anointing, multiple rooms, oaths of vengeance, penalties, false preacher, lecture, and death penalties.
If there is something specific you think is false then we could focus on that.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism I don’t discuss the endowment outside the temple but you’ve made several factual errors among your assertions so far.
@@MBowler Please let me know what is wrong, specifically.
@Uncorrelated Mormonism I'm interested, too. I appreciate your videos, as I'm on a similar search of truth after believing to many lies the church tells. Keep up the good work!
Why do you assume a person who isn’t a member anymore is incapable of telling the truth? Why won’t members acknowledge the former “anti Mormon lies” have been verified in many cases to be true. I grew up in a tune when the seer stones, Joseph’s polygamy and Brighams Adam God theory and blood atonement were all anti Mormon lies.
I don't consider myself a Mormon apologist , however I think my church has definitely fallen away from the truth. But I think this newspaper article is intertwined with truth and lies. For example, If I wanted to learn more about Trump 130 years from now I wouldn't consider the New York Times a reliable source. Still there are truths in here that are difficult to understand.
I think this is sensationalized certainly.
Patrick, from your first video, I understand that you were deeply hurt by your experience with your local church leaders, but I find myself aghast at your digging up of old anti-mormon articles obviously written by enemies of the church with enough truth to snare faithful saints into believing blatant falsehoods designed to produce anger and disgust. This doesn't seem to be the path to reconciliation. Be careful, brother.
Again, thank you. I do appreciate the concern. I honestly am not sure what in here is not true. From what I have read and studied everything in this is 100% true.
There of course are details that may not always be portrayed however the Endowment was constantly changing until the early 1900's.
We know there were penalties before 1990. We know there was a Lecture. We know there was a false preacher. We know Satan had a much larger role previously.
We know that polygamy was a major focus of the Endowment. We know there were oaths of vengence.
From my perspective the most important thing to consider is there is no such thing as "anti-mormon".
There is truth and there are falsehoods.
I looked for the 1877 copy of the Endowment that Brigham wrote down and couldn't find it.
Which were the blatant falsehoods from the article? As someone who has been endowed and attended the temple many times, it seems to have accurately described many of the details from the endowment that are still used today. I have trouble seeing the rest of it to be fabricated because of some nefarious desire to take down the church. It seems to me an article that wants to reveal the truth of a bizarre practice from the church. But I am interested only in truth, and if their are blatant falsehoods in the article I'm curious what they are and if you have a source to lead me to that can correct them.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism If this were 100% true, it would not have been divulged on penalty of death. Consider the source.
@@rogerowenkoehler I am not sure I fully understand what you mean.
Without a doubt a penalty of death was given prior to 1990 to anyone who divulged aspects of the Endowment.
This is not speculation.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism Okay. Let me clarify. Like I said, I'm sure there are many things here that are true, just enough to suggest, as you represent, that it is 100% true. However, if it were 100% true, these details would have to have been divulged by someone who no longer regarded this ceremony as sacred and had motives to reveal them that were very likely to have been antagonistic, in which case, it is very likely that a few juicy details were added to make it more sensational, and as I said, engender feelings of repulsion to fuel the fire of opposition to the church which we know was very prevalent at the time this article was written.