Left Arm Bend In The Golf Swing: Pros vs Ams
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2024
- We get questions about the left arm (or right arm for you lefties) during the swing... should it stay straight or should it bend? Many times our amateur clients have been told they "collapse" at the top, so they try the opposite of collapsing which is keeping that left arm ram-rod straight. Well... neither is going to help your swing. Let's take a look at how the pros move do it.
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A few years back I was at the local driving range and there was a fellow on the next tee that had a swing right out of the picture book. I struck up a conversation with him and he told me that he had played top flight college golf. With that great swing I was surprised he wasn't on the Tour. Anyway, after we hit a few, he suggested I try to keep my left arm straight, comfortably straight, not rigid. I tried it and immediately saw results. I mean right from the first swing. It was, far and away, the best tip I ever got.
Thank you for sharing. Definitely something I need to take to heart and practice more on doing.
Again a very interesting video! Thanks for the knowledge sharing!
Great video - i had no idea, really educational - many thanks for this.
Really really interesting video. Very well produced. Loving this info
Thanks buddy!
Thank you for superb teaching. And for making it so easy to learn and understand.
Thank you for watching!
hi love this video, could you explain the cause of why pros have bend lead arm at impact, thanks in advance :)
Great information
A very nice clear video with simple and straightforward illustration of what is happening in both examples. The bottom line I suppose is that the pro enables a little more load in the down-swing. Of course, both look like they have 'fairly straight' left arms through the golf swing, and the amateur is also a pretty good amateur!
Thanks, Michael and great point.
I noticed the greats have their lead elbow to target at impact in every google image I can find. Tried this today at range. Worked like a charm. Compelled a much wider, rounder downswing, then the "horizontal tug" Moe Norman notes in one of his videos. Can't find a video for this impact position on UA-cam. I suppose this is an obvious position with better players, like the 2-handicapper, but most greenhorns, like me, collapse their front elbow towards their body inside at impact, with catastrophic results. Making contact before losing the front elbow to the inside seems the correct position. Your feedback would be most welcome.
I would love to know what I’m doing wrong because I have so much pain in my lead arm from trying to keep it straight and at full extension that pressure is all on the inside right of my elbow. I’m trying to find whatever information I can to fix this because it really stinks
Interesting stuff boys
Another fantastic video that gives so much insight, particularly at address where you show the pro has his left arm hyper-extended and the opposite (slightly flexed) at the point of impact. Having also watched your excellent video on the anti slice grip it made me wonder what is the correct way to get into the pro left arm position at address. Should I just drop the club down form the waist level position that you show in the video and expect the left arm to move into a hyper extend position courtesy of your helpful grip model. Or should I deliberately hyper-extend the left elbow after the club head is grounded behind the ball? Thanks again for the excellent commentary of this fantastic new technology.
Hyper isn't necessary and many great players don't hyperextend. The overriding point here is that we shouldn't be trying to straighten it on the downswing either.
I guess we want that left arm relaxed in the downswing. For me, I think in the attempt to make sure I keep width in the downswing I immediately jam that left arm straight in transition. I have started to do the drills on your flight fix program. 👍 is it safe to say “keep your left arm straight” is one of those pieces of advice that are just plain wrong and have been real detrimental to amateurs improving their swings?
I would say at the top of my backswing, my left arm is probably something extreme like 60-70 degrees, but I've never had a problem with hitting the ball straight. I can't even force my body to try to keep my left arm straight. Some people just aren't as flexible.
Where does the left elbow point at setup? I've seen/read that it should point toward the left hip, but I'm wondering if that's correct or something that you two see in pros?
Mike, really interesting! Do you think the hyper-extension at address for the pro promotes a stretch-shorten cycle which then promotes a later elbow bend? Do you recommend hyper-extension at address?
This was just one of two of the pros we've measured that start with it extended, but they have the flex coming into impact... so I don't think that could be the trigger.
Excellent video, thank you. I am thinking this very much ties in with an impact where the arms are extended *after* impact (in particular the right arm will be still bent at impact) which produces a crisp blow, with wrists extending at impact (as the pros do and we ams don't) that powerfully compresses the ball. I think this is evidenced at the half-way down position - see 2'51" - where the pro has dropped his right shoulder, allowing him to come into the ball with a powerful right-arm-bent position. The am's shoulders are tilting the other way. Would be very interested to get your view on this?
We're gonna show you today :) The right arm video in this series is going to be posted this afternoon.
There are a lot of players on tour now with a bent left arm at the top of the backswing, brooks, spieth, Bubba, Xander, Collin and more. Would love to see a video on how much left arm flex they average at the top.
On a previous instructional comparison I noticed a backward tilt in your Pro’s neck and head silhouette as compared to the amateur’s. The tilt occurs on the Pro’s initial rotation to the right side. But not on you amateur’s silhouette. It appears that the pro used the backward tilt of the neck and head area to allow the left shoulder more room to rotate back and upward. Can you do a comparison between pro’s and amateur’s head and neck area.
Can you explain more about how the arms work in the follow through? How does that really good AM get rid of that left arm chicken wing and high hands early in follow through?
My left arm is more like a Viktor Hovland. At impact I have a 30 degree bend. No amount of rotation changes it. It's something subconscious and very hard to change. But wondering if it's something I need to grind out or not given that Viktor is doing something similar.
I used to swing like the amateur when I started playing golf as a teen, but got fed up with it and now have a more relaxed swing... I don't tense at impact and try to whip the ball through with the right hand also...instead of only the left.. however I found that I have been having an overactive hip, so now I'm working on getting the club in prime position on the down swing by shifting weight, getting into the slot for hitting... Next my goal is to hit down consistently on iron shots with a relaxed swing, should be interesting
Question: At 2.18 in the video we see the Pro avatar is taller than the Amateur. The amateur avatar also seems to be “hunched” over the ball throughout the swing sequence. Is the height of the two avatars anatomically accurate or is it that the Pro is actually standing taller over the ball and maintaining that “tallness” throughout the swing? If so, I am inclined to think that this tall, more upright stance and swing posture allows more space throughout the swing which enables the Pro player to apply a more relaxed “straightness” to that left arm - hence the slight bend in the left arm approaching and at impact? Is my impression correct?
I would move the ball out away from his feet. It seems he may be having to come back in steep. Moving the ball out could fix this?
Where do you get your pro swing data, mate?
This was very interesting. Going to watch more of your vids now!
Thanks, Nathan! Let us know if there is something you'd like to see a video on.
Our pro data comes from the players we work with on the PGA Tour. We are fortunate to have a pretty large database that continues to grow.
You know I got more bend as I got older but I don't think I would try to force it straight. Still hitting fine just lost a bit of distance over time. On video I have more bend at the top but I don't force it straight because it is not comfortable. Great information.
Exactly how to view it, Kevin👍
Hi! Does lead arm is around left hand side of upper body (chest) at impact or the lead arm is above left nipple at impact, ideally?
On the side👍
Great insight
Thanks for watching, Moon!
Hyper extended at address for the tour winner? Doesn't that sorta destroy the "nice relaxed" set up idea?
Great video!
I wish I can see the rotation of the left arm.
To make the club face square at impact, we need to rotate club counterclockwise.
I really want to see when the rotation starts and also which parts of left arm rotate.
I assume just after transition upper arm starts to rotate counterclockwise while forearm rotates
clockwise to make the shaft to be shallow.
Anyway you are making great inspiring videos, I wish you to continue!
Thank you.
Naoya S.
Thanks, Naoya! And yes, it starts to rotate just after the transition. Also check out the grip video ua-cam.com/video/YUECGDHAt7U/v-deo.html if the grip and club face arn't matching up well it makes that part of the swing that much more difficult.
thanks ♥️
Interesting. What technology do you use for that? I would like to see my own data. Thanks
We use the GEARS 3D motion capture system. Where are you located?
I am in gainesville fl. Do you do any analysis by video?
We do. If you're interested drop us an email at support@athleticmotiongolf.com
Kilim, Martin is a good guy and fine instructor but we don't allow linking to other instructor channels for a couple of reasons.
I sent an email on 12/30 at 905 am but did not get a response. I just resent it.
someone knew the title of the music at 20s ?
Great tips?
A huge piece of the puzzle for improving my swing was forgetting about what my left elbow does. I let it rest in what feels like a natural and athletic position and I just go through my other swing thoughts, which are essentially about nothing more than getting the club back and through on the correct plane for whatever shot shape I'm going for. Focusing on how straight my left arm is does not help with that at all and is just baggage, in my opinion. The top players in the world are almost certainly not considering it, either. They simply have flexibility and athleticism that allows them to passively keep the arm straight. Don't chase that.
Love that self-awareness, Eric. More players would be better served to adopt what you just described. Thing is, the pros don't keep their left arms straight either.
Keeping my lead arm straight helps me to maintain my angle of attack and pure the ball. So should I not do it?
If you are puring the ball and happy with your shots... don't change a thing😉
Is this not because of the Right elbow ? Pro looks to be tucking R elbow in towards R hip in downswing whilst Am is bowing R elbow out. Down the line view would this be similar to a “ flying” R elbow in backswing?
There is a pulling phase with left arm at start of downswing. It's a much weaker position to pull from if you're trying to straighten the left arm as you pull causing the need to "recruit" more right arm.
Yes....every single great golfer makes that move in the downswing....It's been referred to as the "Magic Move" by Harvey Penick, and the "Atomic Elbow" by Ben Hogan.....Either description is the true secret to solid, consistent ball striking.
People think it’s the right arm. Most instructional books say it’s all in the right arm tucking in through the downswing, but it’s really the left arm extending after impact while the right stays quiet and in close. The left arm extension and the left side extension causes a soft trailing right arm. The right arm does nothing dynamic or structurally important in the throughswing. Just the hand.
Where the left elbow points at address is critical and often not discussed. Most pros (looks like the pro used here may be Mcilroy) have the tip facing generally in the target direction. If pre set to some unnatural position prior, then all kinds of problems. You only skip a rock with a natural start.
you've obviously never seen some of my friends trying to skip a rock 😂. Great comments
I can't keep my left arm straight. My pectoral muscle and bicep won't allow it. Too many hours in the gym as a younger man. Is there anything you can suggest?
brucenoneyabusness straight left arm is NOT necessary. No one really does it BTW. As long as your right arm is working well and not over bending, your left won’t be an issue
@@AthleticMotionGolf thanks!
What other sport is the arm held straight, baseball doesn't, tennis doesn't, hockey also. If you are using the wrist as a lever, why not the elbow and get more speed when extending in the hitting area?
Can't think of any other sports either.
The lesson here is obvious. The 2 marker has finished at impact and chicken winged as he is hitting AT the ball, then slowing down, whereas the pro is actually extending his left arm AFTER impact, from a soft downswing, and straightening it only then. After impact. I’m off 2. Just hit a hundred 6 irons with this swing thought of extension after impact and wow, 20 degrees is a lot and my biggest fault is the chicken wing on long irons. This video is great.
That's awesome💪 Ron thank you for sharing!
In this video the left and right arm bend are different from the video that explain the right arm bend In the video, both professionals... which one should we follo?
It would be intressting to see how the right arm work now that we know the left is bent @ impact.
Robert Nordgren Good Idea! Thanks for the comment! We’ll put it on the shot list.
That is one of our next two Pros vs Ams video :)
Athletic Motion Golf sweet!
It would be very helpful to see a similar Pro vs Am analysis of lead arm rotation for both the forearm and the upper arm. Some say to keep the lead elbow down to maintain radius and avoid fanning the clubface open while and others say to rotate the upper arm open to maintain inclination while getting the club on plane at the top of the swing. Also, how does any independent rotation of the forearm on the Backswing contribute to getting the club stuck on the downswing. Lots of meat here!
How is that possible, before impact 6 degree bend, impact 8 degree bend?
The arm is bending not straightening.
@@AthleticMotionGolf Yes that's the crazy thing, most would think it would be straightening at impact, just like against physics
Because of impact of the club on ground?
Good video - would be better if you would add in drill to fix the issue at hand
Peter, we've been hard at work creating hundreds of drills for issues like this. If you're interested check it out www.athleticmotiongolf.com
I can see a big swing killer with the amateur on his backswing. The amateur has poor extension. It’s almost like he is lifting the club to avoid hitting a wall. The pro model has good extension on the backswing.
out of 100+ multiple tour winners and major winners, average average left arm bend top of the swing is over 20 degrees. Some long drive guys do it intentionally as it can be made into another lever..
A 2 handicap with that right elbow at the top ? The chicken wing finish shoulder shrug at impact suggest this was an over the top strike that didn’t have good results.
I can show you plus handicaps through hall of famers with swing flaws. Don't make the mistake equating swing looks with scoring ability, especially if you like to gamble a little😉
Athletic Motion Golf fair point lol
I would argue that 8 deg of left arm bend is nothing. (See: Jordan Spieth, for example) I am shocked that ANYONE would be concerned about that. I would be much more concerned about a hyper-extended arm at impact! Sounds like an injury waiting to happen. And after impact? Pffft...
Bottom line is if you're not comfortable with a completely straight arm then dont do it!
We love bottom line thinking, PB 😉
Don't worry about bending your left arm, just watch Jordan Speith.
Every pro we've captured has bend at impact👍
저렇게 되는 원인이 뭐냐면 pro는 straight line 이 impact 지점보다 forward 에 있고 ama 는 straight line 이 impact 지점에 있기때문임. straight line 이 impact 지점보다 60cm 정도 forward 하다고 머리속으로 그려놓고 치는 drill 이 도움이 될 듯
Awesome comparison but I have a couple of issues...
1) why would you compare an amateur that is in the top 1.5 of amateur players out there? Most of them can't achieve the bend that your example am has let alone the pro, and quite honestly, there isn't a huge difference between these example until the am's finish
2) You never answered the questions you said you were going to answer by creating the video! What is right, what is wrong? What is optimal?What are the effects of too much arm bend? Most Am's don't have the example break down in the finish as the example AM has. Most have a break down in the takeaway. Use a "real world" example so people can relate. Most people haven;t even seen a 2 handicap player in real life with their own eyes...
1st of all - THANK YOU for watching!
2nd of all - those are great points that we'll incorporate in future Pros vs Am videos.
The am we chose is representative of a wide range of skill levels (high double digits to low single digits) with respect to what that player was TRYING to do with his left arm. We have numerous plays from across the spectrum who believe keeping the left arm dead straight is a good idea or part of a "proper" swing. This wasn't a comparison of 2 hanicaps vs pros.
You should not be trying to keep it straight. You should let it bend naturally. So many ams do, especially higher handicaps, have a break down in the finish like in the video.
How about erni els.look his left arm when backswing...
Edison T. Correct, that is straight. The video is about the fact that pros have a tendency to bend left arm to impact.
At the top of backswing ... how much bend is allowable . at the pro level ... JB Holmes bends his left arm.....
We have the data for a multiple major champion who has 24 degrees of bend at the top. I think the take home should be not trying to play from straight in the downswing.
thanks for the reply .... the reason its important to me is that if I keep my left arm "overly" straight there is to much tension ... and it leaks to my wrists ... I'd rather keep things "light" ...
You got it... well said!
Athletic Motion Golf Mickelson?
Not PM
Gentlemen, is it safe to say that keep you r left arm ram rod straight is one of the worst pieces of advice ever like keep your head still? I have recently started working on the drills in your flight fix program as well as trying to be more natural with the left arm during the swing. 👍 I have a huge issue of keeping that left arm ram rod straight in the transition in order to try and maintain width in the downswing. Not a good idea obviously. 😮
And a solution is?
For the am in the video it was no more complicated than removing the intent of trying to keep his left arm straight during the swing. It allowed him the "softness" to get the hands a bit more in front of him with a bit more rotation open in the downswing.
Yoga
Athletic Motion Golf Thanks for your prompt response.
Thank you for watching!
No question timing and rhythm are a factor in every swing, but sometimes our intent (to do "right") can have a negative effect on other elements of the motion.
I think the Am needs to concentrate on his right arm bend???
That video is on the way, GPE😉
The thing is some pro’s bend their left arm at top (Ryan Palmer) and some bend left arm at impact (Westwood, and Goosen) so without naming the pro you cannot say all pros do this, basically this info is taking some amateur and some pro and comparing doesn’t mean much to me.
We aren't basing this video on the data of one player. We have yet to see a pro (and we've measure a lot) without a bent lead arm at the top or at impact.
Athletic Motion Golf I would like to see what these different bent figures look like in a real person’s arm. Also is there a reason you don’t name the pro’s.
If spieth and Westwood were in this video they would be considered...amateurs..lol
Spieth and Westwood do exactly what the pro does... they increase their left arm flex coming into impact.
No pros.
the less i think of the left arm, the better i play..lol
Love less thinking when swinging🙂
This is just confusing for the amateur golfer to decipher
Average golfer like you and I? Praat vir jouself bra.
For most of us amateurs it is better to compare the LPGA golfers to us.
Do you believe most ams can duplicate/relate to the flexibility and mobility of the athletes on the LPGA?
I do not think most of us can match the flexibility or mobility of any pro golfer male or female. They are an elite group. But men in general can learn a lot from watching the slower swing speeds of the ladies and duplicate the distances. Thanks for your response.
For a pro swing, just look at sadlowski. 150+mph CHS.
Great timing, Rena 😉 Check out the video we just uploaded to see an analysis of his driver shaft ua-cam.com/video/IIGh2UCOiig/v-deo.html
-3.5 to start??!! So much for a relaxed arm at address!!
What's crazy is that's relaxed for some guys lol. I don't think mine goes to 0 when it's straight and one student of ours gets to -10 lol
Why compare a 2 handicap when most golfers are not even close to that good. Why not compare to someone who lis more like a 15 handicap?
Hi David, thanks for taking the time to watch and comment.
A couple points... we use golfers of all skill level in this series to demonstrate an overall common element that we see for the given topic. Just happened to be a 2 index in this video, but his pattern of movement is something we see across all skill levels relative to what many golfers are trying to do with the left arm. The other point would be that both the pros and ams in all these videos are representations of the topic and are not intended to be a comparison between one specific pro and one specific am. Obviously we've done a poor job a making those points and we'll try to do better about that in future videos in this series.
Thanks again!
Thank you for the response. There is nothing wrong with the video at all. I just thought this would have been more relavent to a higher handicaper who cant straiten the left arm. I am a 12 handicap and I have alwasy struggled with this. I think the only way to do it is to have a bigger shoulder turn to negate tension in the arm. You covered this and thank you.
Ive been trying to feel the difference between 8.7 and 5.5 at the top and I just can't tell the difference. maybe because there isnt any difference. Bad am's bend the elbow alot thats the difference you should be showing. This is a typical TOO MUCH info for the common man vid . You want to make a 25 handicap better, work on their short game .
The real thing isn’t the left arm. Look at the right elbow!! It’s ridiculous
early finish ?...am shown further than pro..... all pros chicken wing ..maybe slightly later than ams....
Not sure what you mean by "early finish," can you explain?
If you can't do it completely relaxed,(because you didn't start golfing in diapers!)than your going to either slap down or become frustrated.
No idea what that means, Joe, but we really appreciate you watching👍
Jordan Speith has significant chick wing, Please search that on youtube. One pro vs one amateur does not mean a whole lot. Could be amateur has slightly better swing in this case, but pro wins on short game.
Spieth is an exact example of what is shown here. He bends his arm in downswing. I think you totally missed the point of this video. But that is ok,
I don't get the excitement. This is one pro compared with one amateur. Doesn't say anything at all.
We used one pro and one am to compare what we see as a trend from each group. All of the pros we've collected data on add flex like the one in the video, and many of the ams we've captured are trying to straighten the left arm at impact. Those are 2 opposites which we think are worth mentioning. It would not be feasible to use every pro and every am from the database, so we use a representation of each relative to the topic.
Appreciate the answer.
I agree you need a true/legit sample size. How about trying just these 4 pro's, Jordan Spieth, Justin Thomas, JB Holmes and John Daly? I'll bet they have some differences versus each other and they are all touring pro's. It's obvious the +6- to +8 golfer (Tour pro) vs. a 2-5 handicap weekend golfer will have differences in these positions all the time. We don't get to just work on our swing, we actually have 40-60 hour a week jobs so we can afford playing golf. Final thought; why not take 20 Tour Pro's all different swing types and 20 ams and do that comparison? And then take 20, 2-5 handicap rec golfers vs. 20, 18-24 handicap golfers and see those numbers.
Great ideas, Timothy. This comparison isn't a physical limitation that the pros can do but the average am can't. It's about the intent of many, and how that can actually do some damage to the quality of shots played with those intentions.
It actually says an awful lot. More than most will ever understand. The secret to consistently strong ball striking is in this video.
This is horse crap at its finest... how do you explain Jordan Spieth's left elbow then??
Not sure what needs to be explained... he and all the other pros we've measured moves the lead arm just like the pro in the video. They are adding flex during the downswing into impact.
What a load of rubbish lol