@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine right?. im not much of a very fancy revolver look type of guy, but if i were to have this type of gun id only have a few grip pairs. like a stained ivory or bone mostly cause id like a rough but fancy look to it.
I wonder if there were some revolvers that were kind of "80% lowers" of their time, so that they are sold with the cylinder not bored through, but you would just go to your local gunsmith and drill the hole rest of the way
I found a single round of ammunition for the Army version in a big box of old cartridges I got at a garage sale. At the time, I didn't know what it was. It looks like a .44 Henry rimfire with only a partial rim.
The strength of that ejector, and the ease with which it was turned into a ramrod, makes me think that they were designing this in anticipation of being required to retrofit it for cap and ball.
Very interesting revolver it's really amazing when you see all the different types of guns built during this era, one of my absolute favorite times of gun history.
Elegant looking and functional, a really swell piece. The ejector rod system is definitely a nice touch... I know a lot of ejector rods are a bit clumsy (at least in comparison to more modern revolvers), but the lever-trigger type design seems like it'd be great for use on the fly.
We've been trying to get Uberti to make a reproduction of a couple of the Merwin and Hulbert revolvers for nearly 20 years now, and that's a cartridge revolver. Don't hold your breath waiting on this thing. I suppose we're lucky that they make all that they do.
Seems like Pietta is the firm who is more willing to go oddball. With the exception of the Colt Walker/Dragoons, Pietta does everything Uberti does and then more: .44 caliber 1851 barrels, CSA brass frames, pepperbox Colt Navys, and the LeMat.
I just wanna say, sometimes I accidentally "dislike" videos without realizing it and I'm sorry about this. I definitely like this video and pretty much all of yours.
It continues to baffle me how they could patent something so simple as uh.. drilling the chamber in the cylinder all the way through. Smith and Wesson must've been greasing up the patent office for something like that to fly.
Nukle0n Early form of patent trolling, in my opinion. Would have LOVED to drop John Browning in a time machine with tooling to turn out 1911s in 1860 - and blown that patent OUT of the water, lol!
+Nukle0n -- The same way a phone company can patent the rectangle with rounded corners. Our patent system is ludicrous, ditto for our copyright system. Something most people don't realize, they forgot to copyright the movie It's A Wonderful Life, it was a flop at the box office. Because it was not copyrighted television stations would play it over and over through Christmas because they could play it for free. If they had filed the copyright you'd probably never have even heard of it, but because they didn't it became a Christmas standard watched and loved by millions.
Goes back a long way. Just before James Watt brought out his steam engine, one of his employees patented the crank connecting the piston to the wheel. So the first steam engines had a sun-and-planet wheel doing that job.
@@binbashbuddy RKO copyrighted It's a Wonderful Life when it was released in 1946. It changed hands a few times over the years and in 1974 the owner at the time National Telefilm Associates (NTA) never filed renewal papers, accidentally allowing the movie to fall into the public domain. Since 1993 current owner Viacom, through its subsidiary Paramount Pictures, has claimed legal precedent from Stewart v. Abend (which involved another Stewart film, Rear Window) to successfully enforce its claim to the copyright.
1:53 I imagine that priming the lipfire could be _easier_ than a rimfire: I know modern .22 LR cases are spun in order to evenly distribute the lead styphnate into the rim. With a lipfire, you just point the lip down and let gravity pull the primer compound (potassium chlorate, I assume) into place
Very cool . Especially the ejector rod,probably one of the more unique ones that I have seen. Would love to see some new pistol and there company design there firearm with those designs
That ejector rod mechanism is great. The percussion guns that were manufactured later just had the ejector-rod-cum-loading-lever resting further away to allow insertion of a ball? Just google image searched it, looks like I was right, but instead of the rod being lined up with the chamber on the side of the cylinder to allow ejection from the side, it was located centrally because nothing needed to be ejected. This might have been even stronger than the ejection system, but then again, it probably had to be to force a ball into a chamber rather than eject a fired case out. And it looks a little lighter and easier to manufacture.
Buffalo Bill Cody had a Lip Fire Conversion, he used it in his show. A replica builder miss identified this and tougt it was to ck the loads, but it isa leftover u can see today.
I wonder if they didn't design that over engineered and robust ejector as a hedge against the patent challenge, seeing how it easily converted to a loading rod system on the percussion versions.
Iain, did anybody think of putting individual firing pins on the back of the six cylinders in order to get round the patent issue? I'm thinking of the percussion cap holes having pins through them.
An observation I have had after watching a number of your videos on civil war era revolvers is that a number of them have been quite dirty, even filthy. Does it detract from the value to clean one of these old weapons? Does the ancient crud itself add value to the weapon? Just wondering. By the way, the rack and pinion ejector rod is way cool and I can see that it would be even more of an advantage on a percussion revolver's ramrod. Thanks for sharing.
Great video as usual. Quick question, when converted to percussion cap, how did one fit the powder and ball past the very snug ejector/charging rod housing? There doesn't seem to be enough room to load the cylinder anywhere. Perhaps some further redesign was needed?
Its funny with all of the Western Movies you almost always see Colt Army models but in fact S&W break top was just as prolific if not more so with many of the outlaws and famous lawmen carrying them. And it makes sense with the break top providing quicker reloads and ejection, especially while on horse. I just wish Westerns showed this. Was wondering if youve seen Hell on Wheels? Takes place right after the Civil War and the way they operate percussion guns (like replacing the whole cylinder on a Remington to reload quickly I thought was genius and first time Id seen it on TV) and early cartridge guns. I do believe he continues to use a percussion remington but is later converted in the series to firing cartridges.
The ejection system seems a bit over the top and over engineered, but I can see how it would be convenient as a loading lever after the conversion. It appears to be very finely made.
I for one would love to hear the story behind the Smith & Wesson monopoly that drove so many businesses under. Do you have a video explaining that (and what ultimately changed the situation)? And if not, could you please make one?
I suspect that piece was rather expensive to make; lots of little parts needing precise work, in things like the ejector rod mechanism. A firearms manufacturer called "Wheelock" seems like an example of nominative determinism, even in the cartridge era. :-)*
Man that is one damn cool revolver, the designer was a genius too bad Smith screwed his design so badly, I no longer buy Smith and Wesson guns, I used to have a bunch of them but I got rid of them because it seemed like the thing to do at the time. I still have one Taurus .22 revolver that is a direct copy of the Smith 22/31 kit gun which feeds my need for the touch and feel of a good revolver. I used to carry a model 19 as a duty weapon back when I first signed on the PD but changed to a M19111A1 when I had saved up enough coin to afford to buy my own and got into reloading so I could afford to shoot a lot.
Kenny VanCleave Not at RIA. Their company policy is that they don't wear gloves (probably because the risk of slipping and dropping a gun outweighs the benefits). When I wear gloves on camera, it is because I am handling something from a museum or private collection which the owner requests that I use gloves with.
I like to think that RIA (this is just an assumption on my part) understands that if you can't have a tactile experience of the piece, that itself decreases its actual value. Imagine picking up any of your prized objects at home, but always having to put on gloves first-- suddenly something that was once a pleasure becomes a tedious chore.
Lipfire, cupfire, teatfire... there's a joke in there somewhere... But not as big as a gunsmith named Wheellock...lol. Seriously tho, that is a sweet looking gun.
Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like if discoveries were in the common domain and you could only be paid for physical work and not head work. If someone wanted a new invention then they could pay someone to design it, but any current inventions were free game. You would not be able to prevent someone from taking your idea and making a million of them, but they would be legally required to write your name on the product, not their companies name. So you were getting free publicity and they couldn't do anything about it. They made the product so they get the money, but you made the idea so you get the recognition. If it was a huge success then some company might hire you to design them something, pay you, and then they get to put their company logo on the product... next to your name for designing it.
Wouldn't work around that patent be to drill half the cylinder from each side. How well did the original patent idea work with cap and ball revolvers a bored through cylinder would just let more gas escape at the back and not provide you with a a place to place the cap I would of thought.
MrMonkeybat they drilled cap and ball revolvers all the way through to convert them to fire cartridges. the patent is for a cylinder drilled all the way through, not the method of drilling. keep thinking.
MrMonkeybat quoted directly from the patent "It consists, first, in extending the chambers through the rear of the cylinder for the purpose of loading them at the breech from behind"
I am starting to think patent law and copyright law ought to be abolished. That would destroy holywood of course and put the movie business under which would be a nice outcome.
Hobgoblin1975 They should at least just not let people patent really simple things, and instead only allow patents of actual implementations. It's fucking stupid that Amazon can have an actual court day suing someone over getting suggestions for purchases.
Nukle0n And Apple can patent a rectangle with rounded corners like I haven't seen one of those before. I wonder if you drilled half the cylinder from one side and half from the other it would violate this patent.
Why not just invent centerfire and use a firing pin struck by the hammer? Ejector rod in the back like a cup fire revolver, or just use a swiveling cylinder.
I love the smooth, streamlined, almost polished shape of the frame.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine right?. im not much of a very fancy revolver look type of guy, but if i were to have this type of gun id only have a few grip pairs. like a stained ivory or bone mostly cause id like a rough but fancy look to it.
"Wheelock", damn what a name for a gunsmith
I wonder if there were some revolvers that were kind of "80% lowers" of their time, so that they are sold with the cylinder not bored through, but you would just go to your local gunsmith and drill the hole rest of the way
It's amazing how such ridiculously broad patents sometimes get granted.
Before subscribing to Forgotten Weapons I had no clue as to how many different types of firing mechanisms, very interesting!
I found a single round of ammunition for the Army version in a big box of old cartridges I got at a garage sale. At the time, I didn't know what it was. It looks like a .44 Henry rimfire with only a partial rim.
The strength of that ejector, and the ease with which it was turned into a ramrod, makes me think that they were designing this in anticipation of being required to retrofit it for cap and ball.
Ah the past, I could have licensed the act of fueling a car, every time you go the gas station I get paid....
Very interesting revolver it's really amazing when you see all the different types of guns built during this era, one of my absolute favorite times of gun history.
It’s very interesting to see the ingenious designs that came prior to the Civil War. Truly a beautiful little weapon.
The ejection rod really got me... that's a seriously cool bit of tech there for the time. The whole gun is very steampunk looking.
***** Not nearly as much as the "Handmade Auto Revolver at RIA".
Your channel has opened my eyes to the interest in firearm history, as well as an appreciation for older firearms. Amazing channel sir, amazing!
Top ten best forgotten weapons videos
Elegant looking and functional, a really swell piece. The ejector rod system is definitely a nice touch... I know a lot of ejector rods are a bit clumsy (at least in comparison to more modern revolvers), but the lever-trigger type design seems like it'd be great for use on the fly.
Man, this is neat as hell. Uberti should really think about picking up some of these more oddball designs.
+McBandit Hope Yes! Uberti should be making this in caplock system and perhaps the Kerr and Adams designs also.
We've been trying to get Uberti to make a reproduction of a couple of the Merwin and Hulbert revolvers for nearly 20 years now, and that's a cartridge revolver. Don't hold your breath waiting on this thing. I suppose we're lucky that they make all that they do.
Definitely want an army model in 44 Russian or special
Seems like Pietta is the firm who is more willing to go oddball. With the exception of the Colt Walker/Dragoons, Pietta does everything Uberti does and then more: .44 caliber 1851 barrels, CSA brass frames, pepperbox Colt Navys, and the LeMat.
Love looking at those vintage Weapons I got a lot of character unique you might say can you imagine the work that went in to those guns one at a time
I just wanna say, sometimes I accidentally "dislike" videos without realizing it and I'm sorry about this. I definitely like this video and pretty much all of yours.
If the Colt Walker had that trigger guard it would've been perfect.
having the last name of wheelock is probably the most badass thing I have heard
very beautyfull revolver!!
thanx for showing it ian!!
It continues to baffle me how they could patent something so simple as uh.. drilling the chamber in the cylinder all the way through. Smith and Wesson must've been greasing up the patent office for something like that to fly.
Nukle0n S&W didn't patent it, they just licensed it
Nukle0n Early form of patent trolling, in my opinion. Would have LOVED to drop John Browning in a time machine with tooling to turn out 1911s in 1860 - and blown that patent OUT of the water, lol!
+Nukle0n -- The same way a phone company can patent the rectangle with rounded corners. Our patent system is ludicrous, ditto for our copyright system.
Something most people don't realize, they forgot to copyright the movie It's A Wonderful Life, it was a flop at the box office. Because it was not copyrighted television stations would play it over and over through Christmas because they could play it for free. If they had filed the copyright you'd probably never have even heard of it, but because they didn't it became a Christmas standard watched and loved by millions.
Goes back a long way. Just before James Watt brought out his steam engine, one of his employees patented the crank connecting the piston to the wheel. So the first steam engines had a sun-and-planet wheel doing that job.
@@binbashbuddy RKO copyrighted It's a Wonderful Life when it was released in 1946. It changed hands a few times over the years and in 1974 the owner at the time National Telefilm Associates (NTA) never filed renewal papers, accidentally allowing the movie to fall into the public domain. Since 1993 current owner Viacom, through its subsidiary Paramount Pictures, has claimed legal precedent from Stewart v. Abend (which involved another Stewart film, Rear Window) to successfully enforce its claim to the copyright.
Interesting video as always. Never skip yours when they come up. Ejector rod seemed to be a very innovative variation for the time.
Wheellock is the best name for a gun designer of all time
1:53 I imagine that priming the lipfire could be _easier_ than a rimfire: I know modern .22 LR cases are spun in order to evenly distribute the lead styphnate into the rim. With a lipfire, you just point the lip down and let gravity pull the primer compound (potassium chlorate, I assume) into place
Very cool . Especially the ejector rod,probably one of the more unique ones that I have seen. Would love to see some new pistol and there company design there firearm with those designs
Now he has me at "lipfire"!
That ejector rod mechanism is great.
The percussion guns that were manufactured later just had the ejector-rod-cum-loading-lever resting further away to allow insertion of a ball?
Just google image searched it, looks like I was right, but instead of the rod being lined up with the chamber on the side of the cylinder to allow ejection from the side, it was located centrally because nothing needed to be ejected. This might have been even stronger than the ejection system, but then again, it probably had to be to force a ball into a chamber rather than eject a fired case out. And it looks a little lighter and easier to manufacture.
what a beautiful gun.
To quote Mr. Spock ... Fascinating! Thanks for the education.
that's a very neat gun!
cool features :-)
Thanks again!
I always thought it was cool that the guy's name was Wheelock. Wonder if his surname came about because he had an ancestor who was also a gunsmith?
Buffalo Bill Cody had a Lip Fire Conversion, he used it in his show. A replica builder miss identified this and tougt it was to ck the loads, but it isa leftover u can see today.
Another informative & interesting film.🇬🇧
I love these oddball designs from the 19th century!
That’s one of the best looking pistols I’ve seen
That is quite a slick looking revolver for the 1850s/1860s.
that is a very pretty handgun !
I wonder if they didn't design that over engineered and robust ejector as a hedge against the patent challenge, seeing how it easily converted to a loading rod system on the percussion versions.
pretty neat looking profile, for sure. Kinda looks like the civil war era forefather of the Blade Runner blaster...
Iain, did anybody think of putting individual firing pins on the back of the six cylinders in order to get round the patent issue? I'm thinking of the percussion cap holes having pins through them.
Allan Stott
You would still have to figure out how to insert cartridges into the cylinder and how to fix the headspace issue.
That really is a good looking revolver.
An observation I have had after watching a number of your videos on civil war era revolvers
is that a number of them have been quite dirty, even filthy. Does it detract from the value to clean one of these old weapons? Does the ancient crud itself add value to the weapon? Just wondering. By the way, the rack and pinion ejector rod is way cool and I can see that it would be even more of an advantage on a percussion revolver's ramrod. Thanks for sharing.
That's one of those guns where the aesthetic is really nice. It's proof that firarms can be as much art as they are tools.
This is a cool looking revolver. A very steam punk looking piece of firearms history.
Goddamn, that ejector is cool. I want to see something like that today.
if I had your job you wouldn't be able to get me out of that auction house. holy crap I would be in heaven.
That's a handsome piece
Great video as usual. Quick question, when converted to percussion cap, how did one fit the powder and ball past the very snug ejector/charging rod housing? There doesn't seem to be enough room to load the cylinder anywhere. Perhaps some further redesign was needed?
i would love to have that gun, i just dont have the money, i think it would be cool to bring it back here to maine
The pepper-box of Allen & Thurber was made for the same Mr. Allen of this revolver, was it a former name of that company?
jenomaca1970 Yup, same Allen.
Its funny with all of the Western Movies you almost always see Colt Army models but in fact S&W break top was just as prolific if not more so with many of the outlaws and famous lawmen carrying them. And it makes sense with the break top providing quicker reloads and ejection, especially while on horse. I just wish Westerns showed this.
Was wondering if youve seen Hell on Wheels? Takes place right after the Civil War and the way they operate percussion guns (like replacing the whole cylinder on a Remington to reload quickly I thought was genius and first time Id seen it on TV) and early cartridge guns. I do believe he continues to use a percussion remington but is later converted in the series to firing cartridges.
5:40
Why is it full of fur?
Does anyone know why the navy and army guns were different calibers?
I can't picture the lipfire cartridge clearly. Would it be time consuming seating it in the cylinder accurately ?
Beautiful, elegant gun.
Would using a mold get around the patent, as you're not drilling anything?
A beautiful example
Exeter rod or trigger guard system is very nice sir thanks for your all video ji
The ejection system seems a bit over the top and over engineered, but I can see how it would be convenient as a loading lever after the conversion.
It appears to be very finely made.
With the copper cases they used then, that ejector would have been very convenient.
I for one would love to hear the story behind the Smith & Wesson monopoly that drove so many businesses under. Do you have a video explaining that (and what ultimately changed the situation)? And if not, could you please make one?
MrAlumni72 I think the situation changed when the latent expired.
so many spring-like catchs. interesting.
I like this history-stuff
So its 38spl?
What is the finish on that gun ?
***** I would assume that it is nickel plated.
I do enjoy watching.
Did they make any wheellock guns?
I suspect that piece was rather expensive to make; lots of little parts needing precise work, in things like the ejector rod mechanism.
A firearms manufacturer called "Wheelock" seems like an example of nominative determinism, even in the cartridge era. :-)*
Христос Воскрес!
Дуже подобаються Ваші відео,дякую Вам.
How many of these were produced and when?
Question: Why would army and navy want different caliber pistols?
Talk to each other much decided on what was best individually and it was different.
When I googled lip fire cartridge to see what it looks like I ran across something called teat-fire. I found that funny.
Are you guys based out of Arizona? If you are, I'd love to take a visit!
David Paddison I am in Arizona, but RIA is in Illinois.
Awesome! Where do you guys go to shoot? Ben Avery or just into the desert?
With a name like Wheelock, what else are you gonna do?
I can't quite put my finger on why I like that revolver but i really like it
Wonder how much the name Wheelock hurt sales too.
Very cool revolver. I'm surprised it's not worth more.
Man that is one damn cool revolver, the designer was a genius too bad Smith screwed his design so badly, I no longer buy Smith and Wesson guns, I used to have a bunch of them but I got rid of them because it seemed like the thing to do at the time. I still have one Taurus .22 revolver that is a direct copy of the Smith 22/31 kit gun which feeds my need for the touch and feel of a good revolver. I used to carry a model 19 as a duty weapon back when I first signed on the PD but changed to a M19111A1 when I had saved up enough coin to afford to buy my own and got into reloading so I could afford to shoot a lot.
Have you ever had to wear the white gloves when handling one of their guns?
Kenny VanCleave on some of the VERY old ones he has, including a repeating flintlock, yes, repeating flintlock.
Kenny VanCleave Not at RIA. Their company policy is that they don't wear gloves (probably because the risk of slipping and dropping a gun outweighs the benefits). When I wear gloves on camera, it is because I am handling something from a museum or private collection which the owner requests that I use gloves with.
I like to think that RIA (this is just an assumption on my part) understands that if you can't have a tactile experience of the piece, that itself decreases its actual value.
Imagine picking up any of your prized objects at home, but always having to put on gloves first-- suddenly something that was once a pleasure becomes a tedious chore.
toomanyaccounts
I am well aware if that, but that's not as big an issue with firearms, which can be rather easily cleaned.
There's something special about Civil War era handguns. :)
That’s one sleek revolver
can you send me some empty bullet shells for my collection?
The company name is confusing
So... would you call this a "forward thinking design" or a "forward/reverse thinking design"? ;^)
ooo i'm from Maine right on
you never specify dates
Lipfire, cupfire, teatfire... there's a joke in there somewhere...
But not as big as a gunsmith named Wheellock...lol.
Seriously tho, that is a sweet looking gun.
Goes to show how vauge patents restrict innovation.
really nice pistol
Very cool.
Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like if discoveries were in the common domain and you could only be paid for physical work and not head work. If someone wanted a new invention then they could pay someone to design it, but any current inventions were free game. You would not be able to prevent someone from taking your idea and making a million of them, but they would be legally required to write your name on the product, not their companies name. So you were getting free publicity and they couldn't do anything about it. They made the product so they get the money, but you made the idea so you get the recognition. If it was a huge success then some company might hire you to design them something, pay you, and then they get to put their company logo on the product... next to your name for designing it.
Neato- that was made only 20 minutes from me.
Nothing changes does it? Run until you get caught. Another firearm I knew nothing about.
Neat idea :)
Wouldn't work around that patent be to drill half the cylinder from each side. How well did the original patent idea work with cap and ball revolvers a bored through cylinder would just let more gas escape at the back and not provide you with a a place to place the cap I would of thought.
MrMonkeybat they drilled cap and ball revolvers all the way through to convert them to fire cartridges. the patent is for a cylinder drilled all the way through, not the method of drilling. keep thinking.
j0nthegreat
Watch the beginning of the video again, Roland Whites patent was for industrial efieciency in manufacture not originally for cartridges.
MrMonkeybat first, his name was Rollin White. second, you have no idea what you're talking about. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollin_White
MrMonkeybat quoted directly from the patent "It consists, first, in extending the chambers through the rear of the cylinder for the purpose of loading them at the breech from behind"
Oh honey look it’s his first Merwin and Hulbert wtf moment’s. Baby’s first steps
Such a smooth revolver
I am starting to think patent law and copyright law ought to be abolished. That would destroy holywood of course and put the movie business under which would be a nice outcome.
Hobgoblin1975 They should at least just not let people patent really simple things, and instead only allow patents of actual implementations. It's fucking stupid that Amazon can have an actual court day suing someone over getting suggestions for purchases.
Nukle0n And Apple can patent a rectangle with rounded corners like I haven't seen one of those before. I wonder if you drilled half the cylinder from one side and half from the other it would violate this patent.
Bray
Why not just invent centerfire and use a firing pin struck by the hammer? Ejector rod in the back like a cup fire revolver, or just use a swiveling cylinder.
a guy named wheelock who made guns....lol