Confederate Morse Carbine: Centerfire Cartridges Ahead of Their Time
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- Опубліковано 11 чер 2024
- George Morse of Baton Rouge patented a design for a remarkably modern centerfire cartridge and breechloading rifle action in 1856 and 1858, using a standard percussion cap as a primer. This was coupled with a gutta percha washer for sealing and a rolled brass cartridge body that was strong and robust - easily reloaded, if somewhat complex to manufacture.
After positive trials by the Army and Navy, Morse received a contract to make first complete guns and then a royalty contract for the conversion of existing muskets to his system. Work began at the Harper’s Ferry Arsenal, but money ran out with only 60 conversion completed. When the Civil War broke out, Morse chose to side with the Confederacy, and the tooling for his conversions was taken from the captured Armory to be put to use. He initially set up in Nashville, but the city fell to the Union in 1862, and he was forced to relocate to Atlanta and the Greenville South Carolina. It was in Greenville that Morse was finally able to manufacture guns in quantity, and he built approximately a thousand brass-framed single shot cartridge carbines for the South Carolina state militia.
Unfortunately for the Confederacy, the infrastructure to supply a modern type of cartridge ammunition really did not exist in the South, and this crippled any chance of Morse’s carbines becoming a significant factor in the war. The best technology in the world is still of no use if ammunition cannot be provided!
This Morse carbine is of the third type, using a sliding latch on the breechblock to hold the action closed when firing. Two previous versions used different and less secure systems, but this third type was introduced around serial number 350 and would comprise the remaining 2/3rds of the production run.
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Is anyone else amazed that Ian is so learned that he can produce a new video almost daily about a different gun?
@@justforever96 reading books is part of being learned. writing scripts is part of being learned. even with those tools, the high speed and quality of works is impressive. One still needs to gather the conversion numbers, serial numbers, and details, which requires a knowledge of what books contain said knowledge. If only owning a bunch of books made people as skilled as Ian in creating and presenting a large pool of knowledge that continuously becomes rarer and more obscure due to the nature of the well known information being talked about first.
also not sure why you are replying to a 4 year old comment.
He makes all the video at once. He schedules a release
What is even stranger than this innovation fading into obscurity is that Morse did not take it to Europe and tried to have it made there after the war. This rifle is far ahead of any rifles the Europeans had at the time.
This just straight up beats both the Chassepot and Dreyse, doesn't it?
I wouldnt say it was far ahead of rifles like the Chassepot and Snider Enfield, they were both introduced into service in 1866 and used the most modern technology. The fact the Chassepots needle fire paper cartridge was a technical dead end doesnt detract from the fact it was a very advanced weapon.
@@fastmongrel This rifle was originally developed 10 years before those rifles so
@@zacht9447 except Chasseport was developed in 1856 and this gun in the video in 1857, but okay, whatever you say:D
Vetterli entered service barely 4 years "after the war". Far ahead, you say?:D
I own a Martini Henry manufactured in England in 1876! My favorite rifle. This one is even more ahead of its time. I'm truly amazed.
i love how crude and simple it looks. would love to own one
Brother, so would I ! But at $12,000 -plus, I never will ~ unless I win the lotto !
Crude and simple? It looks like a single-shot version of a Winchester
@@brucemorrison2132 always possible, just gotta play to win is my main problem.
Basic and uncomplicated. Pros in my book.
As some have already pointed out, this rifle was designed by George Washington Morse not Samuel Morse. It's an understandable slip and you got it correct in your comments. Morse's real innovation was his centerfire cartridge design that incorporated the anvil for igniting the priming compound that can be found in nearly all boxer primed ammunition today. In fact, the anvil did not come into widespread use until a couple of decades after the US civil war and then a British army officer with the last name Boxer was credited with inventing it and now his name is on Morse's cartridge ignition system.
Cool shit bro
That is a remarkably advanced carbine for 1860. Shame the story ended the way it did.
You would think that design could have been scaled up slightly and used for a .58 cal rifle. Maybe replace the brass with steel.
This would probably have been a better conversion than the later trapdoors.
It's a shame (from an innovative standpoint) he was never able to produce these or the cartridges in large numbers.
Maybe a shame for gun kind but since he sided with the Confederacy it's better that he didn't finish it.
Chris Elyea that’s very subjective, let’s not forget that the Union was one of the most cruel overlords and most sadistic victors of all time.
Eh, racist or less I bet that, even if the Confederacy, enough contact with people of African descent would've still drove the population to give them rights, people aren't monsters, not even the ones siding with the Confederacy.
The confederacy was wrong in their beliefs yes but that doesn't make them monsters. From their point of the the north was infringing their rights to slavery and when someone tries to take an Americans right away they're gonna fight back. Not monsters just misguided people
@Angel of Mercy. Let's just accept the fact that no matter who would have won the Civil War slavery would have ended sooner or later anyway at least in civilized societee even though it is still going on in Africa specifically in Muslim controlled countries.
Only 1860’s Kids Will Remember Shooting These
I have been to the place where the factory was in South Carolina. There is nothing left but a plaque now. They do have one at the Greenville civil war museum which is pretty cool to see in person.
The question is, "Is there any cheapish modern brass that can be converted to fit?"
NOPE
You could do a chamber cast and measure that
Depends on your machining skills
Find a damn good machine shop, and hope they have the same enthusiasm as you. Otherwise, you better have deep pockets.
Perhaps there is a standard size of thin-walled brass tube (like model makers use) which matches the original case?
Let's face it, you're going to be basically starting from scratch and so soldering caseheads onto tubes isn't perhaps the worst way to go.
Unless you're extremely lucky and find a "close enough" modern case.
From what I'm reading elsewhere this was actually developed by George Morse, Samuel Morse's nephew
Sorry, I mixed up the first name. It was George who invented the gun; no relation to the Morse code guy, Samuel.
HAHA, I had to do a double-take myself, I was scouring Samuel Morse's wiki page wondering why no one had mentioned his weapon patents.
I was thinking the same thing. Just researched it. Yes they were related. Small world.
@@ForgottenWeapons oh! I was about to say!
Fascinating Ian! I wondered how potent an early cartridge like that would be: turns out it was pretty good!
Love to see A Uberti or Pieta reproduce some of these in a modern available centerfire cartridge.... Maybe 45 LC or .44-40. Nice gun for folks who like historical shooting (NS-SA) or reenactment... And would likely be handy as a farm or ranch gun.
Agreed! Although they’d be very pricey, not just for historical factor, but also because they’d have to use steel receivers instead of brass since they’d use smokeless powder.
@@RichardJohnson1969 "they’d have to use steel receivers"
I'm not actually certain that they would... Just changing the breach block from cast iron to steel and the "locking block" from cast brass to phosphor bronze or steel might be robust enough for standard pressure .45 LC. or 44-40 rounds. I don't see that the brass frame is really taking that great a loading anywhere other than at the point the barrel attaches, which might need to be beefed up a bit.
What a slick little carbine, certainly ahead of it's time. As Ian has mentioned before, so many times the success or failure of a gun design has nothing to do with the merits of the design but with timing and circumstance of it's introduction and the business acumen of the designer. With that said, turn that finger rest into a functioning lever to work the action and cock the hammer, add a tubular magazine....oh yeah..the Henry.
I have to wonder if the thin stock was due to preference, or a material expedient. It occurs to me that you may be able to get that stock out of a regular flooring plank (not that Tennessee has a shortage of trees, but one would much rather use seasoned wood).
Gun Sense (drmaudio) the entire gun seems very narrow but material saving is a good shout
It might just be aesthetics? It's very pretty and a nice size, from all angles.
Or maybe its just a weight thing - carbines tend to be aimed at saving in weight so useful for arty/medical/support/etc units and for cavalry use.
Its a beautiful little lass......
Gun Sense (drmaudio) you could make any kind of a stock out of a floor board if you wanted...it's just builders preferences
Actually it isn't too surprising. Many rifles of that era in the southern states wer made with very narrow stock.
That rifle is way ahead of it’s time! Pretty cool.
Cheese grits, smoked sausage, eggs , hot strong coffee and history lesson from Ian. Gonna be a good day in Lexington SC. Ya'll have a good one too. Shout out to all the vets out there. Thank you very much.
Every morning starts with a cup of coffee and the latest video from Forgotten Weapons. Excellent, as always!
Matt Morrisson lucky! Ian uploads a couple hours too late for me, so I have to catch them after I get home from work.
Nothing like coming home from a stressful day at university, fetch some food and watch forgotten weapons.
Thanks man!
Exactly the same here.
'Stressful day at university' - lol! Man, what I wouldn't give for my 'stressful' university days...
Same here in the uk stay safe
This would be a neat gun to be made as a reproduction in a caliber like .45 Schofield or .45 Colt
Or a trimmed (shortened) and swaged
.50-70 cartridge which might be pretty close.
@@aeredhaelredfalen6194 Yeah, maybe something like the 56/50 Spencer centerfire round for reproduction Spencers might work but .45 Schofield or Colt or even .44 Russian would be a whole lot easier and cheaper to find. Any of the calibers could be easily reloaded once you have a stash of components.
Or you know like 30-30, 45-70, or 38-55
@@Theonederboy The Morse action is not and would not be able to handle cartridges in those pressure ranges.
@@onmiloso sticking with revolver rounds
Ian, or anyone who knows, I would like to pick your brain for a minute. Years ago I helped a fellow by cleaning up and sizing the cases of a sliding break action Carbine. I was told it was a German made cavalry Carbine that was sent to and used by the Confederate cavalry. It had brass cases with a small flash hole at the base. The base was rounded with an extraction grove. It was a large caliber and the short 16 inch or so barrel had micro grove type riflings. There were about 14 small lands if memory serves. I loaded it with FF I believe because of the center flash hole in the case head, it could have been FFF. The action used a large musket cap for ignition not a percussion cap. The lever action would push the barrel forward out of the breech and extracted the fired case from the chamber. The barrel would tilt down like a break action for reloading. If anyone knows what this civil war carbine was, I’d like to know because I would like to find one. This was 25 years ago or so and I don’t remember what it was. I thank you much.
Could it possibly be a Gallager Carbine? It is similar in what you describe however it has no relation to Germany. I recommend you look through the Wikipedia page (yah I know not the most accurate but it does have a lot of info) on “Rifles in the American Civil War” it lists the carbine I mentioned under the breach loader section as well as other similar carbines. Hope that helps!
@@jameshuggins4118 There were a lot of designs like that, going all the way back to the 1790's, at least (the design seems to have originated in the Northern Germanic states or up in the Baltic Countries). Gastinne Renette made quite a few guns like that in France. They started out using loose ball+powder, moved to combustible cartridges, then brass/copper cases with separate priming, and finally the self-contained metallic cartridge at the end (I don't know of any needle-fire versions of it). Some just slid the barrel forward, some slid it forward and tilted it to facilitate cartridges. They all have the same basic design: a lever w/ toggle locks the breech and barrel together, moving the lever down and forward unlocks the action and slides the barrel forward to facilitate loading. It's actually a really good design for paper cartridges and loose powder+ball, and is easier to maintain good headspace with metallic cartridges (than a typical break-action).
Mr.Gibbs "invented" the idea in the US in '57 ( + - a yr or two), and Mr. Gallager "improved" the idea in '60.
Amazing Rifle Morse Was a Genius 😎
Imagine how short the war would have been if these were standard on one side?
The loop is for a single point sling. So tactical! Lol
People don't change.
I thought it was a baby pistol grip
@me Me : It was largely about classism, and more particularly was because of the _fallout_ of the differences in classism in the North vs South (the North was more developed for two reasons: firstly the northern states were willing to give out loans to businesses in return for creating local factories & such, which the southern states largely _opposed,_ partially due to the risk that plantation owners might end up bankrolling their current of future competitors, leading to more northern development through greater ability to get funding _for_ development; secondly, immigrants found the southern plantation oligarchs more similar to the european nobles they were trying to get _away from,_ and thus the north had greater access to cheap immigrant labor then the south).
At any rate, while slavery would have started collapsing _again_ (Eli Whitney having interrupted the _previous_ collapse about 4 years after the Revolutionary War with the economic improvement of his cotton gin), the fact is that if the South had won it's independence then it's very likely that the South would _still_ have some form of slavery, as much of the reason for southern racism was more a push for a new aristocratic class, than pure economics.
You guys are funny. The Civil War was like 99.999% because of slavery.
@@neilzientek mk.
Somebody needs to start cranking out cool old style guns like these again, affordably. We have the technology!
This rapid firing carbine might explain what happened when South Carolina Cavalry helped stop a Union Cavalry advance in 1864 in Virginia. I think it was the Battle of Haw's Shop. The South Carolinians hadn't fought much for 3 years in S. Carolina and these troops were sent north to aid Lee's Army as mounted infantry. They were reported as being well supplied and heavily armed with Enfield rifles. In their first action they eagerly engaged the Yankees. And their fire was so heavy that General Sheridan later reported that his men were up against a strong reinforced Brigade. I suspect that many of these men were armed with Morse Carbines. The timing and circumstances fit well.
I had family in that unit at that battle. Wounded, and he survived. There are very clear memoirs - they were armed only with the Enfield short rifle. They were glad to have them. Earlier in the war they were embarrassed by them as they saw themselves as dashing hussars with sword and pistol.
Way ahead of its time indeed. If I did not know about this rifle before now, I would look at this and think, oh, late 1800 carbine. This was about 50 years ahead of its time.
by far one of the most interesting channels on youtube. thank you for sharing so much history.
I learn so much watching this channel. Good info 👍
The tooling for the Harper's ferry rifle was also captured and those were first sent to Richmond Virginia then to Raleigh NC, then towards the end of the war to South Carolina. It's strange that the tooling for the Morse actions went to Nashville
Nashville Plow Works and College Hill Arsenal that cast iron gun tubes..... Also, as today, Nashville is a major transportation hub that was close to iron ore and coal......
Thanks for this video. I didn't know about this gun and arm designer. He was way ahead of his time, and the US government typically didn't get it.
Really good to come back from work and check the new video from Ian. Enjoyable evenings
You should do more Confederate breech loafing civil war carbines like the rising breech carbine and the tarpley carbine :) I love civil war breech loaders and repeaters
Same here brother, I love The Morse, Tarpley, N.T. Read/Keen,Walker & Co. , Rising -breech carbines, as well as the D.C. Hodgkins, J.P. Murray, Cook & Bro., Richmond , Tallassee, Dickson/Nelson & Co., LeMat carbines, and the "Richmond Sharps" carbines !
I agree. There's something that's just so interesting about this period of firearm development.
Is one of these in the Murphy collection in Greensboro?
You updated the story in the newest video a little, that's cool! Also, the pictures of cartridges are always nice to have like here
Fantastic video. Never heard of this one so for me it was truly a forgotten weapon! Thanks for sharing.
Centerfire, pfff. How are you supposed to hit that?
This hype will die in no time.
Another great video . Thank you for your fascinating work.
Ian, we do love you.
Very elegantly simple mechanism to this carbine!
Greenville South Carolina Represent
Your videos are excellent! Keep up the good work! Thanks
The more modern lever-action rifles are essentially an upside-down version of this design, functioning also as a loading lever... I think.
My favorite gun channel and host!
Absolutely fascinating! Thanks Ian!
Can't recall ever hearing of these. Looks like a solid design. The cartridge design is a good one. Using a standard cap was very wise. I wonder if the trapdoor or even the rolling block were influenced by this design at all? I bet that load would get around 1000 fps out of that barrel length. Nothing to scoff at. Almost the ballistics of modern 45 Colt +p. I agree- a modern reproduction using large rifle primers would be a lot of fun. Modern steel would make it easy to use 5744 or a similar smokeless powder. Put on a more normal wider srock, and life is good. Great video as always. Thank you
That's the first time I've heard the word obturation since armourer training. Well done sir.
another great vid man, always a good job brother
Cool gun. I love these transitional designs, so many clever ideas.
That´s one slick gun..
Very interesting. And very informative. Thanks for another great video. Keep them coming.
Man that's awesome, very advanced for the period...keep up the great work man, I love your video's and as I've stated before really think you should have your own tv show as well lol...
Absolutely enjoyed this
If I won the lottery this would be a fantastic project!!! Stainless Steel with a fast twist barrel 'n' brass cases set up for 209 primers and up to 80 grains of black powder substitute!!!
Why not just use real black powder? Same power as a substitute and not as corrosive as pyrodex?
@@kylemichaels3373 Real Black powder is harder to get and more expensive usually.
@@humansvd3269 Is one was to win the lottery I imagine making your own black powder would not be too time consuming and much more rewarding
my copy of a Pennsylvania rifle also has a surprisingly thin stock, I was skeptical but it is shockingly comfortable and makes the gun feel much more light on her feet
Gee, I didn't know Pennsylvania rifles had feet ?
Beautiful ....what an amazing gorgeous gun
Love your channel, ian. Many years ago, my father owned a Steven's falling-block , single shot 38-55 rifle that would put a 12 inch hole through a moose at 500 yards. I would love to see an episode on one if you could find it. Keep on keeping on, brother. God bless.
@@justforever96 maybe they meant a (still exaggerated) extremely large exit wound?
I’d like to disagree with the opening point. The confederacy made huge innovations in weapons. The confederate armory realized in 64 that smaller bullets worked better than the .58 and .68 bullets being used, something the US wouldn’t figure out for a while. Plus the first use of electronic mines, the first land mines and first naval mines.
As always, informative and interesting.
Very cool gun. Thanks for the vid.
The rear stock being thin makes it very comfortable and easy to come up to the ready aim position
I like all the rifles in the background!
Cool old rifle video, too!
It would be really cool if Uberti or Pedersoli made modern cartridge replicas. In say, .45 colt or .44-40. I know they wont. But, it'd be really cool if they did.
Nothing like a completely unrelated review to make you appreciate the sturmgewehr in the background
This is freaking awesome!!!
Pretty cool learning about this being from Harpers Ferry, WV myself.
My favorite genre of video is "man sits and talks calmly about something"
What a brilliant guy with an unfortunate sense of timing. Pretty rifle. Thanks very much for sharing.
That's amazing and way ahead of its time.
That thing is freakin cool as hell
I’d be the guy in the civil war to die in the first volley
Nah, you’d probably be the guy who dies a horrible death due to dysentery before you even get to the first battle.
Hunter Smith probably lmao
Very pretty gun and with that kind of cartridge a nightmare to get hit by.
Beautiful piece of firearms history. I can't wait to be more settled so I can spend more on collector and or fun guns.
1,000 guns made, nearly 3 million fighting, and 750,000 died. I gotta say it, those 1,000 guns had no impact at all on anything other than Morse's fortunes.
I've seen thin stocks like that...actually it's very comfortable against your cheek..and it's a very good idea, also in anyway possible to cut down weight is a plus...soldiers are always wanting two things out of gear 1. Light 2. Dependable
Very clever design of that action, how it locks.
Very nice.
"Well, this project didn't really have a chance to go any further, because..."
(my brain, automatically: "... war were declared.")
"... around this time, the U.S. Civil War breaks out."
Wrong channel, brain, but good effort.
Patreon money well spent indeed!
I believe a modern replica in 50-70 would sell.
very cool rifle
That particular piece was ridden hard and put away wet! Beat to hell.
Owned/used no doubt, by a hard-fighting South Carolina cavalryman. Who were almost as good as cavlarymen of Georgia, who were almost as good as troopers of Texas ! (LOL)
What a cracking gun
I watch ur vids habitually every day, and for the past 2 days I thought it was weird that u hadnt posted. It wasn't the case, cuz im quite sure UA-cam unsubbed me from ur channel cuz i had to re hit the subscribe button and the bell, and ive never unsubscribed from this channel since i first discovered it years ago
I felt certain there would be a crackpot reference to Morse code down here! Great video!
Excellent, one of our Louisiana brothers ahead of the times. At least we got first in something. Just had to bring that up.
Remarkable!
Nice gun
Fine shooting machine
the slot in the grip frame is probably for a lanyard
If you ever come across a Maynard carbine; please do a video on it. It’s an amazing rifle
I almost passed this video up; so glad I didn't. Don't judge a book by it's cover. Morse and Snider both got screwed by different governments.
Nice! i was wondering if anyone had a cartridge idea like that...that would be my choice if I lived back then
I heard that as the confederate army were low on firearms, they bought guns from England.
ie- whitworth, enfield, adams revolvers etc. Armstrong sold artilery.
An saddles were sold in the 1600s to the colonies.
Love these confederate arms video.
Trivia but gutta percha and india rubber are two different (but similar in uses) plant saps. Neither of which grew in the USA so not a mass cartridge material for the CSA. Very advanced concept though in both cartridge and rifle.
The "What If" factor is strong with this one.
Just like the Pauli cartridge double rifle in 1812 that was rejected by Napoleon. (Basically a 12 gauge shotgun with rifled barrels, eighty years early (he also did shotguns)).
Keep it up
Would it be possible to take a modern case, trim and shape it, load it with black powder and a .50 bullet and shoot it. I think that would be pretty neat.
Robert Kelley the striker might not work. its designed for the much more sensative percussion caps and it looks quite broad too. I'd say if you weren't opposed to modifying the striker or replacing it with one it might work, but the extractor might also have a problem too
Thanks for your reply. Just curious.
Theoretically... if you bored out the bottom of that case just enough to accept a percussion cap (thinner brass then a primer, and found a fulminate-based cap if you wanted really reliable ignition), then there's nothing about this that wouldn't work fine. Nothing stopping you from making your own from-scratch ammo for it either (though if your success is anything like mine back when I tried doing that, it'll be mixed).
Well , yes and no. Neat to be able to fire it, but VERY BAD for preserving an important Confederate gun's value and longevity, as so few still exist.
I guess if you used a brass case that was berdan primed it would already have the anvil in it and be close to fitting a cap. Maybe a 7.62x54r case. It'd be fun to try that's for sure.
I found this looking for information on the Navy arms Morse 58 caliber muzzleloader. He was very creative.
The rear framework looks like the 1887 lever action 12 super ahead of it's time
Bannermans had these firearms in their catalogs for $13.0 each or you could buy a case . I saw the catalog after they were out of business