The term "1858 Remington" was something Navy Arms created when selling the reproduction in the 1960s. There is no historicity for it. The only reason it was given that title was due to a patent date, which had nothing to do with the years of production of the pistol itself. The pistol is actually called the "Remington New Model Army", not the 1858. Additionally, while the cylinders are easier to remove and replace in the field, if you have spare loaded cylinders that are timed to that gun, the reality of this being viable under duress is highly questionable. There are no historical records of anyone actually successfully doing this, and there are a few apocryphal references to a person here or there carrying a spare cylinder, although most of it appears to be mythos. Considering the endless voluminous comments about this particular "well understood common knowledge" of changing the cylinders under stress for a speed reload, I'll absolutely be addressing this in a future episode. I assume that we have Hollywood and old gun print media to thank for this misunderstanding.
Where did the name “New Model Army” come from? Was it literally the new model of the army gun? The only time I’ve heard that phrase before is in the context of the English Civil War and just wondered if there was any connection.
Your comments on cap and ball being used into the 1920s and '30s makes me think of how many people today still use 1911s, revolvers, small 25's and 32's, etc. Just because it isn't cutting edge doesn't mean it's not useful.
For that matter, the Hudson Bay Company would sell you a flintlock trade gun (a smoothbore, non-rifled, long gun) into the 1920s, at least in the northernmost territories. You can load them with shot, or with a round ball, depending on your game of the day to harvest.
As a Kid(14) I went into a local gun shop and bought a kar98k Mauser. The owner said, "Kid why are you buy that? Why not a AR15 or a M1A ?" I said, "If I shot you with this, Are you going jump up and say I could not, because it is old ? I think not." As a MARINE combat veteran, No I would not want to go into modern combat with a kar98k. But could I defend my home ? HELL YES, and if I am shooting at ya. Make damn sure you got lots between you and me.
Well .......... 1920 & 30's is probably a little bit of poetic license . At that point C&B shooters more likely to be either gun enthusiasts looking for something different , or as a deliberate affection . However , a half step removed from that , the ctgs for the conversion guns were standard production until WWII .
@@filianablanxart8305 Maybe they lived in a remote-ish area. Like how there was no electricity in my area until the late '40s to early '50s. It took even longer for everyone to have it.
Revolvers were expensive back in the days of the the Western frontier...a month's pay for the the average worker. Also, society did not switch over into 'disposable' mode until the mid 20th century. Things were used until they were worn out...clothes, furniture...or firearms. Oh, working cowboys usually did not own a revolver. Revolves were, in addition to being expensive, of limited use to a working cowboy. Most working cowboys owned a cheap side-by-side shotgun. Most of those shotguns were imported from Europe, Belgium being one of the biggest suppliers.
You are correct however there were a few working cowboys that did buy revolvers usually the lead man they made a little bit more money or the boss Most of the others would just have a shotgun like you said or a rifle of some kind.
I feel the revolver was more of a clout piece. You bought it to show off. A month's wage? I remember hearing a weeks wage for a base line SAA. Edit:I just checked and it is a month. A full setup (leather, cleaning kit, gun) was able to be gotten for one, $20 gold piece or about 2/3rds a month's wages for a cowboy of honorable standing. Its also the root of the saying "a good handgun is worth an ounce of gold" as seeing a $20 gold piece is like .97 ounces of pure gold. It still holds true for the colt saa today, as a new colt saa costs $1799 on colt's website and an ounce of gold is $1813. As a side note that is still about 2/3rds of the average working class persons monthly income... Weird considering the gun is "obsolete"
John W The cap& ball UA-cam channel followed by some duelist1954 a sprinkling of MannCA, and Hickok45 topped off with some eras gone bullet molds and guns of the old west. Enjoy
@@tiedyedkarma Don't forget our Hungarian friend Cap&Ball! He's tried many bullets, cardtriges, loads and weapons! And go check out britishmuzzleloaders. Throughly informative videos!
I think that the stress factor is pretty underrrated issue, watch Karl finghting with that reload and take in mind how much he is expirienced with this type of firearms and yet the time pressure got to him. Awesome video, again learned something new, thanks for that.
Indeed, it had never occurred to me the percussion loading version had the benefit of a safety position for a 6th shot and the realities of use. The history is fascinating.
I would say one point you've missed that goes in favour of the paper cartridge gun is availability and quality. Look at any old brass cartridge, there are really good images from the Zulu war for the Martini Henry British Cartridges. They are rolled bass, really loose tolerances and look worst than something someone has cobbled together in the shed. And that was a cartridge for a rifle in service of the world's largest and most industrial Empire. Even cartriges that look like modern ones had many issues now not really seen unless there is a faulty gun. Case head sepetation, ruptured cases, dud primers (really common) and many other issues plagued cartridges until just before ww2. All of that was without the unique issues with black powder. A black powder charge is really sensitive to the environment and time. It will degrade and the powder become solid if left to sit. In a precussion gun, its fine, you can remill the powder and remake the cartrige. Not so easy for brass. That brings me to my second point, availability. It was a common feature of any general store that they would make up paper cartridges. Not so of brass. They have to be ordered in. No longer can one set of supplies make charge and ball for any rifle or pistol. It's now down to whether they have been ordered and in stock. Which may not be the case unless there were a number of users with the same gun. Not likely in poor towns and newly established communities.
On point about the brass. A lot of people don't know how many random calibers there were in the 1800s. Impossible to stock them all in a regular store. If there was any it would definitely be from a big brand, like .45 Colt or .44 Winchester.
@@zacharyrollick6169 that's why you see just a handful of those cartridges surviveing to the modern day. 45 colt and 44-40 as an example. Idk for sure but it seems 44-40 was probably the king of metallic cartridges at the time. 1 set of supplies could be used for a rifle or a pistol.
Of course this is youtube. Such a insightful, well written comment would get only 13 likes. You should have used nonsensical profanities and exclamation, you would have received millions of likes.
You are dead on with most everything except for one thing. A blackpowder revolver with properly sized tight percussion caps and gas seal from oversized roundballs can make the load just as reliable as modern day cartridges. Which means you should expect that storing a loaded cap and ball revolver in and ideal location, as you would with normal ammunition to last indefinetly
This is fascinating. I’ve never seen somebody try to reload a Single Action gateloader under time and wow that reload is glacial. I can see now why the Abadie system later on would seem like such a good idea.
It's funny how many people will interpret "You probably don't need..." to mean "You should not be able to have..." Great video! InRangeTV is one of my favorite channels to watch! :)
I love how you slide between AK tactical guy and historic cowboy guns, etc. I can't wait to get my first black powder gun and shoot it with my son. Great vids man thanks
Its been one year Andrew Young, have you picked up one yet and if so, what did you chose to share with your son. I have my boys on rifles, my oldest is 16 and beginning to want to use my pistols, but I too want to experience the black powder world. . .
I've learned so much about our "old west" history from these videos and the vignettes, thank you Karl. Keep up the good work, I get very excited whenever a new one is produced. Some of the best content on YT!
Depends on state law for carrying and use. Generally considered a dangerous weapon same as other handguns. It's an antique/muzzle loading firearm federally and unless state or local law doesn't prohibit it, you can have it delivered to your door.
In Europe, anything even shaped like a firearm is illegal. Some countries even make old or even museum firearms nonoperative because of law. But I think that enormous Colt Navy is still big deterrent. You point it on someone and his first thought wouldn't be: "Nah, this is just museum piece, I am good."
As a resident of one NY, not the city, I just looked this up a few weeks ago. And we can own the gun, as soon as we acquire ammunition for it the gun needs to be on our pistol permits.
I love everything about this video, especially the demonstrations of reloading the Richard-Mason at speed. Despite your fantastic handling, the shot timer doesn't lie - it's just not feasible to reload one of these in a gunfight unless you have hard cover and friends to pick up the slack.
I love percussion revolvers. My first revolver was a 1858 New Model Army. I was too young to own a smokeless handgun at the time. Run what you brung! I became proficient with mine and trusted it as my go to until I was old enough to own a smokeless handgun. It, and the later acquired 1860 Colt I had (both Uberti repros), were very dependable. I once left my pistols capped and loaded for 2 years and 7 months. They fired all 12 rounds without hesitation. If I lived in NM in the old days I wouldn't have felt a need to convert to cartridge pistols unless I was buying a new one. Love the content. Thanks for sharing the truth. I primarily use my cap and ball revolvers for gun breaking my horses these days. I can say nothing feels better on the belt then a proven 19th century revolver.
Great info Karl. I really appreciate and enjoy your work. Especially, videos like this that show us the differences between how things were done vs. how we think or perceive them to have been done!
i imagine he was drilling himself to always follow the same reloading steps, when you're on the clock is the worst time to try to change things up, it messes with your muscle memory.
@@misterthegeoff9767 I don't disagree, but it took me no time to figure out that was a better plan. So if he had practiced it before hand, he may have shaved a second or 2 off. I fire single actions enough to know ejecting a case can be a real pain in the ass. More crap to fumble around with.
@Zippydsm Lee I specifically called out his single round reload to avoid confusing the issue with his multi-round reload. It is a simple question. I was wondering if HE had an answer for.
probably faster to just eject the empty casing. The empty chamber would have been aligned with the action, which is 1-2 cycles from the loading port. Also, i do not know if there is a safety feature that prevents the cylinder from cycling "backwards". Good question though,
Now that was an amazing video! Thank you! I love the history and practical scientific approach you took to these weapons. Few channels actually back their “statements of fact” like this. Thank you so much. All the best to you. Thank you 🙏
i recall reading it wasnt uncommon for Bushwhackers during the civil war to carry 2 pistols (one on each hip) and 4 pistols on the horse plus maybe a rifle or carbine
Tommy Breitwieser would love to see where you read that (primary source or something else) Handguns were always in short supply for the confederacy, one person having 6 revolvers would have been uniquely uncommon
Great video, I love my 1851 and 1860. Fun fact: when Sam Colt presented his first belt gun, the 1851 Navy, to the world they fired 1500 rounds with it that day with no cleaning and no malfunctions. They are fantastic firearms.
Really interesting comparison, historical context and comprehensible technical detail for someone like me that has never seen one of these handguns outside of a museum. Your looks into the cowboy era are fascinating.
Ammo availability was probably also a consideration back then. Caps, powder, and lead as base components were likely more readily available than unique cartridges.
Excellent video! I’ve been shooting percussion revolvers for many years now and you’ve echoed many of my thoughts on the matter. Glad to see I’m not the only one who has made these observations and come to the same conclusions.
Elmer Keith in "Hell, I was there" writes about shooting cap and ball revolvers when he was a boy. He was born in 1899 so this would have been maybe 1910 or so. Also, that is a good book if you can find a copy.
Fantastic video. I learned a great deal from this video. I didn't know a few things and was under the impression that there was only one way to load it, but you dispelled quite a few fears of owning and caring for it. The paper cartridges were a Godsend. I recently became an 1860 pietta (replica) for the first time in my life and was discouraged with a few things, but I'm alright now. I'm still not certain about one or two things, even with the manual, but I'll keep searching for self-help videos, if they even exist.
Hell on Wheels had an interesting take on the problems reloading a percussion revolver. Even with a spare cylinder fully loaded, and capped, you still had this tense moment of who would be reloaded first.
Excellent video! I love practical considerations of how these guns were actually used. At 11:50 you mentioned 700fps. I chronographed my Uberti 1860, and with 25 grains of Swiss FFFg black powder and a Johnston & Dow 226gr pure lead conical bullet, it yielded an average velocity of 895 feet per second. Swiss, which uses alder buckthorn charcoal as British military powder did, is probably the closest in power to 19th century black powders. In my tests in that gun, it yields 13% better velocities than Goex, and 30% better velocities than Schuetzen. (Yes, 30%! And all were FFFg.) Also, the Uberti required zero modification to use paper cartridges with that bullet. I did replace the nipples/cones with Slixxshots and use a heavier mainspring, and with RWS 1075 caps it’s 100% reliable until about 70 rounds have been fired, when fouling becomes an issue.
I always get told that the load five is a John Wayne Hollywood myth and "NO ONE ever loaded just 5". I remember reading that someone had actually seen an old colt manual that suggested loading only 5 instead of 6, with a brass cartridge revolver. Do you have any reference sources to back up the load 5?
It's mentioned (I believe several times) in Triggernometry by Eugene Cunningham. Anecdotally, don't forget Billy the Kid's slaying of Joe Grant in Fort Sumner where he rotated the cylinder of Grant's revolver while "admiring it" so the hammer would fall on an empty chamber.
@@TheGM-20XX yes but Im looking for actual historical documentation on this practice. Like my original comment stated, many state that this is only a John Wayne Hollywood myth and it was not actually thought of or practiced in the old west.
I love the remington new army conversion by Uberti. Looks amazing, feels solid, shoots 6 shots 45 colt like a SAA, but it's 10 times sexier in my opinion. If only the ejector was spring loaded!! Am i the only guy who doesn't really like the colt peace maker look?
Makes perfect sense-- I imagine that if I thought I would get into an actual combat/multiple person dispute situation, I'd DEFINITELY just get a decent lever gun. On the off chance I decided that I needed more capacity on my person at all times, I would probably talk some idiot into buying a newfangled high tech cartridge gun and buy their old percussion gun as a "favor" and just carry two.
@@zacharyrollick6169 They weren't, they could chain fire if you weren't careful, but that's not really the main reason they weren't popular. A lot of it was you weren't really gaining much by having that versus a lever gun which for the job of a pistol caliber rifle a lever gun was much better at than an elongated revolver
Disclaimer, I have no experience with percussion pistols. I have been told by others who do that there were problems with caps falling out or jamming the cylinder. Not necessarily in the relatively short span of time of a competition but over a period of time carrying the pistol while doing every day activities. Any thoughts on that?
9:33 It’s soooo satisfying hearing those revolver clicks and seeing it smoothly executed. That one-round reload seems slow but I’m sure it was done quickly by loading gate standards.
Colts would be tough for that. It would probably be quicker to reload with paper cartridges, plus you don't have to worry about losing or dropping important parts like the barrel.
Really doubt that unless it was a cartridge conversion for the remington. Like how Howell old west has their two piece cylinders. Those were based off original conversion cylinders
Some people still hunt with percussion muzzleloaders. Technological transition is often sharp but reality is almost always a completely different thing. It's really impressive to think how long some changes take place.
Kevin Costner's Open Range impressed me with the fact that Kostner had more than one SAA which he used when he wanted to increase his volume of fire. I was even more impressed at how many rounds he was able to get out of each of the SAAs - I wouldn't have thought they'd hold upwards of 10 rounds each. He stopped to reload both when he was able to do so, but I thought having two made more sense than being able to reload in a flash - and of course most audiences wouldn't try to count rounds from two revolvers. Anyway, your comments about reloading makes a lot of sense, and I haven't thought about Open Range in a good while.
It's funny this popped up, I was just readjusting the sights of my Father's 1860 Army because we just started using the Johnston and Dow mold for it and wow if it didn't make a difference in the recoil. I shoot it back to back between round ball and the conical and it really makes a difference.
My friend likes the Remington 1858 over the Colt 1851 Navy. He did have to replace the hammer spring on the Colt in order to get it to function reliably whereas the Remington functioned just fine out of the box.
Love this stuff. Karl, hopefully you'll answer this. A couple of years ago, I had the chance to buy a Beretta Laramie. Guy offered it to me for $650. How much of an idiot was I for not taking him up on it?
One could say that the survival of the reliable cap & ball gun into the cartridge age is quite akin to the survival of the reliable revolver into the automatic age. Both older technologies, when maintained and used by people who know what they're doing, are still quite reliable for their purposes
Bolt action rifles too. The Mosin Nagant has been in continuous military service in since 1891, is reasonably common on middle eastern battlefields (likely due to ammo availability), and remains well liked as a hunting/survival rifle.
heh, Ironic that we started with "caseless" firearms, and the military is tinkering with going BACK to "caseless" again [I say again because they tinkered with it with the Steyr ACR and G11]
Not so much as caseless but having a combustible case. As I understand it, the main gun of an Abrams tank uses a semi-combustible aluminum case. You run the round into the gun, send it on its way, and the breech spits out the head cap-- the rest of the cartridge is floating downrange as toxic smoke (hence the need for a bore extractor/fume evacuator).
If the people carrying a 1911 are carrying their grandpappy's 1911 or are old enough to remember a time when there was a king on the British throne, sure.
I've seen a few original groupings with percussion revolvers and Mexican loop holsters on smooth belts. Its kinda cool to see that guys were getting the newer styles of holsters with the older guns.
Thank you for a review which relates the truth concerning nineteenth century revolvers. Few people unless that are reenactors or history buffs understand how percussion revolvers were the mainstay weapon of the "old west." They are highly reliable and powerful for self-defense. Another advantage which made the percussion revolvers had over cartridge guns was the cost of ammunition. Paper cartridges were less expensive than their metal counterparts. Again, I thank you for your review, good shooting!
Very nice presentation. My first pistol was a replica .31 caliber the I loaded with 00 buck balls. My last CNB revolver was a Ruger that I loaded with cut down maxi-balls.
Another factor was that, out on the frontier, a small out-of-the-way trading post probably wouldn't stock a lot of different calibers or new fangled metallic cartridges but loose powder, caps, common caliber bullets and lead for your mold was usually available.
Love these old civil war and frontier guns. Your "what if lever guns" as well as hickok45's channel are what inspired me to get a Winchester 66 and a Remington new model army.
Excellent video. One thing though, "conversions" is kind of misnomer. Colt "converted" old stock to use cartridges, starting with the Richard type I, and then the Richard-Masons type II. No one actually sent their firearms to Colt and have it "converted".
A cavalry trooper during the civil war wrote that if you shot someone with a conical it would just pass right through..he stated if you hit them with a round ball it would knock them right off their horse..I have an old 1860 army sold under the replica arms name.all the tolerances fit like a bank vault and haven't loosened..it actually is a uberti. I work in scrap yards in east Detroit I've carried his weapon for 7 years everyone thinks I'm nuts but i can easily out shoot any of them it doesn't matter if you have a 5,000 round magazine if you can't make the first round count
Thanks Karl for a great video and especially for your comment about the reality of carrying spare cylinders. It seems that any one that ever watched "Pale Rider" thinks all c&b gun owners had a belt of pouches filled with them. The only semi historical reference I have ever seen was in a childs book about the Pony express which stated that their riders were initially issued with 2 Colts revolvers and a Colts revolving rifle but later that was changed to only one revolver with a spare loaded cylinder to save wieght. Sorry no references, it was a long time ago and I was quite young but I did understand what was meant. Thanks
i don't love old west stuff but I do love history and Karl helps provide a lot of context for things I normally read as "I shot my gun" thank you for all your hard work and passion
The Colts will generally run longer than other muzzleloading revolvers mainly because of the large diameter arbor, vs. small diameter cylinder pins in other manufacturers. You can change different length barrels quickly too.
And that arbor has a "thread" running the opposite direction of the cylinder rotation, in order to push fouling forward and out as the cylinder rotates.
Do you know much about the George Hand 1860? The one photo it doesn't appear to be an early fluted cylinder model, and it has 3 screws instead of 4. Maybe a civilian model? I couldn't zoom in close enough to see if it had the etched naval scene, but it looked as though it did.
Great comparison. The only real advantages I can think of a user may have considered in a conversion may have been the elimination of cap jams and the ability to readily unload the cartridge handgun. But in that era economics was a great influence and I agree the majority would have simply kept their Old Faithful cap and ball as it was.
One of the best videos on revolvers and their realistic use can't praise this enough. I defo learnt quite a bit more than I was expecting. And if you carry two guns like on red dead 2 you have more than enough with cap. I personally like Clint Eastwood idea carrying a smaller pocket revolver shoulder holstered (josey wales). He also demonstrates loading the remington in pale rider changing the whole cylinder. But add the shoulder pocket revolver then you have 3 guns 18 rounds.
Thank you for sharing this with us. Always appreciate the scholarly presentation of your videos. Fascinating and entertaining as always. Thank you again
Another reason that folks continued to carry percussion revolvers well into what we think of as the "cartridge era" was that every hardware store or general store in any small settlement on the frontier stocked lead ingots and bulk black powder in both rifle and pistol granulations, as well as various sizes of percussion caps (There were only a few.). Thus you could reasonably expect, having a bullet mold in the appropriate caliber and bullet weight, you would likely NEVER be out of ammunition for your revolver no matter where you were.
The term "1858 Remington" was something Navy Arms created when selling the reproduction in the 1960s. There is no historicity for it. The only reason it was given that title was due to a patent date, which had nothing to do with the years of production of the pistol itself.
The pistol is actually called the "Remington New Model Army", not the 1858.
Additionally, while the cylinders are easier to remove and replace in the field, if you have spare loaded cylinders that are timed to that gun, the reality of this being viable under duress is highly questionable.
There are no historical records of anyone actually successfully doing this, and there are a few apocryphal references to a person here or there carrying a spare cylinder, although most of it appears to be mythos.
Considering the endless voluminous comments about this particular "well understood common knowledge" of changing the cylinders under stress for a speed reload, I'll absolutely be addressing this in a future episode.
I assume that we have Hollywood and old gun print media to thank for this misunderstanding.
Great video. Would love to see you collab with Paul Harrell, I'm betting he'd be great at 2GA matches.
Where did the name “New Model Army” come from? Was it literally the new model of the army gun? The only time I’ve heard that phrase before is in the context of the English Civil War and just wondered if there was any connection.
And yet despite that people were able to reload muzzle loading muskets in battlefield situations.
I blame the movie pale rider! Love that final gunfight
IIRC it was a cartridge conversion on a 58 remington
@@Kharmazov yeah that's because they fired in lines of men under orders... not sure what your point is
Your comments on cap and ball being used into the 1920s and '30s makes me think of how many people today still use 1911s, revolvers, small 25's and 32's, etc. Just because it isn't cutting edge doesn't mean it's not useful.
For that matter, the Hudson Bay Company would sell you a flintlock trade gun (a smoothbore, non-rifled, long gun) into the 1920s, at least in the northernmost territories. You can load them with shot, or with a round ball, depending on your game of the day to harvest.
As a Kid(14) I went into a local gun shop and bought a kar98k Mauser. The owner said, "Kid why are you buy that? Why not a AR15 or a M1A ?"
I said, "If I shot you with this,
Are you going jump up and say I could not, because it is old ? I think not."
As a MARINE combat veteran,
No I would not want to go into modern combat with a kar98k.
But could I defend my home ?
HELL YES,
and if I am shooting at ya. Make damn sure you got lots between you and me.
Good point about just because it isn't cutting edge doesn't mean it is not useful. There seems to a lot of cases of "I have to have the latest toys" .
Well .......... 1920 & 30's is probably a little bit of poetic license . At that point C&B shooters more likely to be either gun enthusiasts looking for something different , or as a deliberate affection .
However , a half step removed from that , the ctgs for the conversion guns were standard production until WWII .
@@filianablanxart8305 Maybe they lived in a remote-ish area. Like how there was no electricity in my area until the late '40s to early '50s. It took even longer for everyone to have it.
"There are two kinds of people in this world my friend, the ones with loaded guns and the ones who dig. You dig."
The good, the bad, and the ugly?
Great movie
See, that's what Bill Carson told me. It's the grave marked "unknown" right next to Arch Stanton.
@@annairinastoll2960 Unnn Unnn IT DOESN'T HAVE A NAME ON IT!!!
Or am I?! *cocks my gun*
10:46 - "The reality is: the quickest reload was another gun."
Finally! The one thing most FPS games got fundamentally right. xD
Switching to you (other) pistol is faster than reloading
One thing django unchained got right.
"colt at this time was in serious financial trouble" is basically a sentence that Ian usually has to say when talking about a colt weapon.
Colt, Remington, Smith and Wesson.
It's more rare they're not in financial trouble TBH
Revolvers were expensive back in the days of the the Western frontier...a month's pay for the the average worker. Also, society did not switch over into 'disposable' mode until the mid 20th century. Things were used until they were worn out...clothes, furniture...or firearms. Oh, working cowboys usually did not own a revolver. Revolves were, in addition to being expensive, of limited use to a working cowboy. Most working cowboys owned a cheap side-by-side shotgun. Most of those shotguns were imported from Europe, Belgium being one of the biggest suppliers.
You are correct however there were a few working cowboys that did buy revolvers usually the lead man they made a little bit more money or the boss Most of the others would just have a shotgun like you said or a rifle of some kind.
I feel the revolver was more of a clout piece. You bought it to show off.
A month's wage? I remember hearing a weeks wage for a base line SAA.
Edit:I just checked and it is a month. A full setup (leather, cleaning kit, gun) was able to be gotten for one, $20 gold piece or about 2/3rds a month's wages for a cowboy of honorable standing. Its also the root of the saying "a good handgun is worth an ounce of gold" as seeing a $20 gold piece is like
.97 ounces of pure gold. It still holds true for the colt saa today, as a new colt saa costs $1799 on colt's website and an ounce of gold is $1813. As a side note that is still about 2/3rds of the average working class persons monthly income... Weird considering the gun is "obsolete"
You are truly a man of knowledge MrSloika !
@@Thoroughly_Wet thank you for the research, very interesting.
IMHO You would probably also have to considered that after the civil war there would a significant surplus of used guns in circulation.
i want to hear more about the "alchemy" of black powder revolvers!
Same here! New series?
John W
The cap& ball UA-cam channel followed by some duelist1954 a sprinkling of MannCA, and Hickok45 topped off with some eras gone bullet molds and guns of the old west. Enjoy
@@gotsloco1810 Agreed. I highly recommend duelist1954's channel for all things black powder.
For some reason I have a mental picture of a cowboy wizard 🤣🤣
@@tiedyedkarma Don't forget our Hungarian friend Cap&Ball! He's tried many bullets, cardtriges, loads and weapons!
And go check out britishmuzzleloaders. Throughly informative videos!
I think that the stress factor is pretty underrrated issue, watch Karl finghting with that reload and take in mind how much he is expirienced with this type of firearms and yet the time pressure got to him. Awesome video, again learned something new, thanks for that.
We need more historians who REALLY take history seriously like you do.
I’ll be darned! I have been using percussion revolvers for competition and fun since 1979, and I learned something more today! Thank you Karl!
I love it when you bust out the black powder guns! Your historical content is some of my favorite. Great stuff! I always learn something new. Cheers!
A very interesting, educational look at virtually overlooked or ignored historical reality. Thanks, Karl. Really enjoy these history lessons!
Indeed, it had never occurred to me the percussion loading version had the benefit of a safety position for a 6th shot and the realities of use. The history is fascinating.
Hence why banditos, highwaymen, and al flavor of gunslingers carried multiple guns. Records suggest that Jessie James would carry six revolvers.
Jeez six? That is alot of weight but hey crime sorta payed back then vs now.
@@jacksonthompson7099 They would be mounted on each side of the saddle horn and two belt pistols and two underarm carries.
@@aaronstandingbear i was imagining him with a clunky satchel full of loose revolvers 😂
At different times in his life, im sure.
Well, if Jessie took them from people he had killed they would not be expensive and probably complete with reloads and leather!
I would say one point you've missed that goes in favour of the paper cartridge gun is availability and quality. Look at any old brass cartridge, there are really good images from the Zulu war for the Martini Henry British Cartridges. They are rolled bass, really loose tolerances and look worst than something someone has cobbled together in the shed. And that was a cartridge for a rifle in service of the world's largest and most industrial Empire. Even cartriges that look like modern ones had many issues now not really seen unless there is a faulty gun. Case head sepetation, ruptured cases, dud primers (really common) and many other issues plagued cartridges until just before ww2. All of that was without the unique issues with black powder. A black powder charge is really sensitive to the environment and time. It will degrade and the powder become solid if left to sit. In a precussion gun, its fine, you can remill the powder and remake the cartrige. Not so easy for brass.
That brings me to my second point, availability. It was a common feature of any general store that they would make up paper cartridges. Not so of brass. They have to be ordered in. No longer can one set of supplies make charge and ball for any rifle or pistol. It's now down to whether they have been ordered and in stock. Which may not be the case unless there were a number of users with the same gun. Not likely in poor towns and newly established communities.
On point about the brass. A lot of people don't know how many random calibers there were in the 1800s. Impossible to stock them all in a regular store. If there was any it would definitely be from a big brand, like .45 Colt or .44 Winchester.
@@zacharyrollick6169 that's why you see just a handful of those cartridges surviveing to the modern day. 45 colt and 44-40 as an example. Idk for sure but it seems 44-40 was probably the king of metallic cartridges at the time. 1 set of supplies could be used for a rifle or a pistol.
Of course this is youtube. Such a insightful, well written comment would get only 13 likes. You should have used nonsensical profanities and exclamation, you would have received millions of likes.
You are dead on with most everything except for one thing. A blackpowder revolver with properly sized tight percussion caps and gas seal from oversized roundballs can make the load just as reliable as modern day cartridges. Which means you should expect that storing a loaded cap and ball revolver in and ideal location, as you would with normal ammunition to last indefinetly
@@daviddavis584 Okay grandpa? Swearing doesn't get you any likes. Never seen any comment ever with "millions" of likes.
This is fascinating. I’ve never seen somebody try to reload a Single Action gateloader under time and wow that reload is glacial. I can see now why the Abadie system later on would seem like such a good idea.
or a Schofield
Webley was the best
It's funny how many people will interpret "You probably don't need..." to mean "You should not be able to have..."
Great video! InRangeTV is one of my favorite channels to watch! :)
I love how you slide between AK tactical guy and historic cowboy guns, etc. I can't wait to get my first black powder gun and shoot it with my son. Great vids man thanks
Its been one year Andrew Young, have you picked up one yet and if so, what did you chose to share with your son.
I have my boys on rifles, my oldest is 16 and beginning to want to use my pistols, but I too want to experience the black powder world. . .
I've learned so much about our "old west" history from these videos and the vignettes, thank you Karl. Keep up the good work, I get very excited whenever a new one is produced. Some of the best content on YT!
Hmm, imagine someone defending themselves in CA or NYC with an 1860 in 2020. (Not a regulated firearm).
With the way things are, its bound to happen.
Depends on state law for carrying and use. Generally considered a dangerous weapon same as other handguns.
It's an antique/muzzle loading firearm federally and unless state or local law doesn't prohibit it, you can have it delivered to your door.
In Europe, anything even shaped like a firearm is illegal. Some countries even make old or even museum firearms nonoperative because of law. But I think that enormous Colt Navy is still big deterrent. You point it on someone and his first thought wouldn't be: "Nah, this is just museum piece, I am good."
As a resident of one NY, not the city, I just looked this up a few weeks ago. And we can own the gun, as soon as we acquire ammunition for it the gun needs to be on our pistol permits.
@@Vitalla7 what constitutes ammunition? The powder, bullet, either or both? I'm in southern CT
I love everything about this video, especially the demonstrations of reloading the Richard-Mason at speed. Despite your fantastic handling, the shot timer doesn't lie - it's just not feasible to reload one of these in a gunfight unless you have hard cover and friends to pick up the slack.
Absolutely riveting content as always
I love percussion revolvers. My first revolver was a 1858 New Model Army. I was too young to own a smokeless handgun at the time. Run what you brung! I became proficient with mine and trusted it as my go to until I was old enough to own a smokeless handgun. It, and the later acquired 1860 Colt I had (both Uberti repros), were very dependable. I once left my pistols capped and loaded for 2 years and 7 months. They fired all 12 rounds without hesitation. If I lived in NM in the old days I wouldn't have felt a need to convert to cartridge pistols unless I was buying a new one. Love the content. Thanks for sharing the truth. I primarily use my cap and ball revolvers for gun breaking my horses these days. I can say nothing feels better on the belt then a proven 19th century revolver.
Great info Karl. I really appreciate and enjoy your work. Especially, videos like this that show us the differences between how things were done vs. how we think or perceive them to have been done!
I purchased an 1851 conversion over a year ago, works flawlessly, looks amazing, I absolutely recommend people buy one.
So why eject a spent casing when you had an empty chamber? On your single round reload.
i imagine he was drilling himself to always follow the same reloading steps, when you're on the clock is the worst time to try to change things up, it messes with your muscle memory.
@@misterthegeoff9767 I don't disagree, but it took me no time to figure out that was a better plan. So if he had practiced it before hand, he may have shaved a second or 2 off. I fire single actions enough to know ejecting a case can be a real pain in the ass. More crap to fumble around with.
@Zippydsm Lee I specifically called out his single round reload to avoid confusing the issue with his multi-round reload. It is a simple question. I was wondering if HE had an answer for.
probably faster to just eject the empty casing. The empty chamber would have been aligned with the action, which is 1-2 cycles from the loading port. Also, i do not know if there is a safety feature that prevents the cylinder from cycling "backwards". Good question though,
Rich Wiki, the driving hand acts as a ratchet stop that prevents you from cycling the cylinder 'backwards'.
Love to see you run a 49 pocket or 63 Remington in the back up gun match
Now that was an amazing video! Thank you! I love the history and practical scientific approach you took to these weapons. Few channels actually back their “statements of fact” like this. Thank you so much. All the best to you. Thank you 🙏
Thus the New York reload, like in the movie, “The Outlaw Josey Wales.”
Puts the idea of people carrying multiple guns in that time into perspective. Dual-wielding was a gimmick, 5-6 more quick shots wasn't
@@hvymtal8566 Also if you had two guns you were labeled as a vegabond/trouble maker.
R3LL1K1 “two-gun man” was an insult
i recall reading it wasnt uncommon for Bushwhackers during the civil war to carry 2 pistols (one on each hip) and 4 pistols on the horse plus maybe a rifle or carbine
Tommy Breitwieser would love to see where you read that (primary source or something else) Handguns were always in short supply for the confederacy, one person having 6 revolvers would have been uniquely uncommon
That is a gorgeous pouch!I would love to have one to keep my Zip22 spare parts.
Shame! Shame! Shame! :P
Great video, I love my 1851 and 1860. Fun fact: when Sam Colt presented his first belt gun, the 1851 Navy, to the world they fired 1500 rounds with it that day with no cleaning and no malfunctions. They are fantastic firearms.
I absolutely love my 1860 repro.! It’s quiet, accurate, and VERY Effective
Really interesting comparison, historical context and comprehensible technical detail for someone like me that has never seen one of these handguns outside of a museum. Your looks into the cowboy era are fascinating.
Ammo availability was probably also a consideration back then. Caps, powder, and lead as base components were likely more readily available than unique cartridges.
The irony is, that is the very same reason to have them today!
@@blueduck9409 Just keep plenty of primers, powder and your brass of choice on hand.
'06 and .303 brass are 2 of the handiest
Excellent video!
I’ve been shooting percussion revolvers
for many years now and you’ve echoed many of my thoughts on the matter.
Glad to see I’m not the only one who has made these observations and come to the same conclusions.
Elmer Keith in "Hell, I was there" writes about shooting cap and ball revolvers when he was a boy. He was born in 1899 so this would have been maybe 1910 or so. Also, that is a good book if you can find a copy.
Fantastic video. I learned a great deal from this video. I didn't know a few things and was under the impression that there was only one way to load it, but you dispelled quite a few fears of owning and caring for it. The paper cartridges were a Godsend. I recently became an 1860 pietta (replica) for the first time in my life and was discouraged with a few things, but I'm alright now. I'm still not certain about one or two things, even with the manual, but I'll keep searching for self-help videos, if they even exist.
Hell on Wheels had an interesting take on the problems reloading a percussion revolver. Even with a spare cylinder fully loaded, and capped, you still had this tense moment of who would be reloaded first.
Excellent comparison! Thanks for the shout out on my bullets!
I sold my percussion revolver a couple years ago and this video made me want to get another one haha!
Excellent video! I love practical considerations of how these guns were actually used.
At 11:50 you mentioned 700fps. I chronographed my Uberti 1860, and with 25 grains of Swiss FFFg black powder and a Johnston & Dow 226gr pure lead conical bullet, it yielded an average velocity of 895 feet per second. Swiss, which uses alder buckthorn charcoal as British military powder did, is probably the closest in power to 19th century black powders. In my tests in that gun, it yields 13% better velocities than Goex, and 30% better velocities than Schuetzen. (Yes, 30%! And all were FFFg.)
Also, the Uberti required zero modification to use paper cartridges with that bullet. I did replace the nipples/cones with Slixxshots and use a heavier mainspring, and with RWS 1075 caps it’s 100% reliable until about 70 rounds have been fired, when fouling becomes an issue.
I always get told that the load five is a John Wayne Hollywood myth and "NO ONE ever loaded just 5". I remember reading that someone had actually seen an old colt manual that suggested loading only 5 instead of 6, with a brass cartridge revolver. Do you have any reference sources to back up the load 5?
I mean hickok45 did a video about it where he demonstrated a light bump on the hammer making the gun go off
@@jasonhill8696 that's not what Im asking.......I am well aware that will happen.
I've heard walking around you load 5. know you are going into a fight load 6.
It's mentioned (I believe several times) in Triggernometry by Eugene Cunningham. Anecdotally, don't forget Billy the Kid's slaying of Joe Grant in Fort Sumner where he rotated the cylinder of Grant's revolver while "admiring it" so the hammer would fall on an empty chamber.
@@TheGM-20XX yes but Im looking for actual historical documentation on this practice. Like my original comment stated, many state that this is only a John Wayne Hollywood myth and it was not actually thought of or practiced in the old west.
Love it when you bring out the BP. As a fellow BP shooter it's nice to see that type of content.
Love these old west videos you do.
Even the most specific and random InRange video is super interesting, learned a lot!
Remington New Model Army next please? :D Great content as always cheers!
One of the most informative gun videos I've ever watched about 19th-century weaponry.
Great video!
I'd love to see you try this using the Remington New Army for the cylinder swap trick.
I've seen some people do it very fast, with a little practice.
Not necessarily historical, but damn if that wasn't the best scene in Hell on Wheels
So with that comment about not having sponsors, you guys are like the PBS of UA-cam, but with more Freedom and vastly more entertaining.
I love the remington new army conversion by Uberti. Looks amazing, feels solid, shoots 6 shots 45 colt like a SAA, but it's 10 times sexier in my opinion. If only the ejector was spring loaded!! Am i the only guy who doesn't really like the colt peace maker look?
Nope, I prefer the look of the colt open tops over the peace maker
@@HomesteadingPatriot same, Remington revolvers look ugly
I love these videos about black powder and Old West guns. Keep 'em comin'!
Makes perfect sense-- I imagine that if I thought I would get into an actual combat/multiple person dispute situation, I'd DEFINITELY just get a decent lever gun.
On the off chance I decided that I needed more capacity on my person at all times, I would probably talk some idiot into buying a newfangled high tech cartridge gun and buy their old percussion gun as a "favor" and just carry two.
Get a coach gun
@ET Hardcorgamer Colt made them, but I don't believe they were very popular.
@@zacharyrollick6169 They weren't, they could chain fire if you weren't careful, but that's not really the main reason they weren't popular. A lot of it was you weren't really gaining much by having that versus a lever gun which for the job of a pistol caliber rifle a lever gun was much better at than an elongated revolver
Not sure why, but this is my favorite western related content video you've done.
Testing the UA-cam algorithms with words like conversion!
This is a vastly underrated and under liked comment.
Awesome content. Love old/replica guns and realistic comparisons definitely make you think differently about the time period.
Disclaimer, I have no experience with percussion pistols. I have been told by others who do that there were problems with caps falling out or jamming the cylinder. Not necessarily in the relatively short span of time of a competition but over a period of time carrying the pistol while doing every day activities. Any thoughts on that?
9:33 It’s soooo satisfying hearing those revolver clicks and seeing it smoothly executed. That one-round reload seems slow but I’m sure it was done quickly by loading gate standards.
Having a spare cylinder might be an option too, especially for the remington 1858
That’s movie fantasy, mostly.
Really only done by those expecting a fight like the Texas Rangers with their early Colts against the Comanche.
@@InrangeTv would be interesting as a video maybe, a colt 1960 vs a remington 1858. they made cartridge conversions for those too, right?
Colts would be tough for that.
It would probably be quicker to reload with paper cartridges, plus you don't have to worry about losing or dropping important parts like the barrel.
Really doubt that unless it was a cartridge conversion for the remington. Like how Howell old west has their two piece cylinders. Those were based off original conversion cylinders
Some people still hunt with percussion muzzleloaders. Technological transition is often sharp but reality is almost always a completely different thing. It's really impressive to think how long some changes take place.
Hands down my favorite Black powder revolver is the 1851 navy 36 caliber.
Kevin Costner's Open Range impressed me with the fact that Kostner had more than one SAA which he used when he wanted to increase his volume of fire. I was even more impressed at how many rounds he was able to get out of each of the SAAs - I wouldn't have thought they'd hold upwards of 10 rounds each.
He stopped to reload both when he was able to do so, but I thought having two made more sense than being able to reload in a flash - and of course most audiences wouldn't try to count rounds from two revolvers. Anyway, your comments about reloading makes a lot of sense, and I haven't thought about Open Range in a good while.
2:48 Hello Bird!
It's funny this popped up, I was just readjusting the sights of my Father's 1860 Army because we just started using the Johnston and Dow mold for it and wow if it didn't make a difference in the recoil. I shoot it back to back between round ball and the conical and it really makes a difference.
I shoot home-cast round ball for my colt. I just love not having to find ammunition, only caps, powder and lead.
Im sure people felt the same way 150 years ago ....
My friend likes the Remington 1858 over the Colt 1851 Navy. He did have to replace the hammer spring on the Colt in order to get it to function reliably whereas the Remington functioned just fine out of the box.
I don’t like this channel.... i ❤️ it
Cool video. I never realized the transition from black powder to cartridge was a gradual change. It makes complete sense now.
Love this stuff. Karl, hopefully you'll answer this. A couple of years ago, I had the chance to buy a Beretta Laramie. Guy offered it to me for $650. How much of an idiot was I for not taking him up on it?
Sounds like an ok price, but I’m not personally familiar with Beretta’s top breaks so I don’t know if it’s a decent reproduction or not.
@@InrangeTv I'll chalk it up as a wise moment then. Thanks for answering.
One could say that the survival of the reliable cap & ball gun into the cartridge age is quite akin to the survival of the reliable revolver into the automatic age. Both older technologies, when maintained and used by people who know what they're doing, are still quite reliable for their purposes
Bolt action rifles too. The Mosin Nagant has been in continuous military service in since 1891, is reasonably common on middle eastern battlefields (likely due to ammo availability), and remains well liked as a hunting/survival rifle.
If one were to be using a Remington New Model Army, you can easily swap out the cylinder in under 10 seconds.
Yeah, carrying two or three loaded cylinders would work....just have to be careful to not hit a cap....
I love the old west content you do. Keep up the good work Karl!
heh, Ironic that we started with "caseless" firearms, and the military is tinkering with going BACK to "caseless" again [I say again because they tinkered with it with the Steyr ACR and G11]
Not so much as caseless but having a combustible case.
As I understand it, the main gun of an Abrams tank uses a semi-combustible aluminum case. You run the round into the gun, send it on its way, and the breech spits out the head cap-- the rest of the cartridge is floating downrange as toxic smoke (hence the need for a bore extractor/fume evacuator).
Thank you all at InRange for doing what y’all do!
So were people who carried black powder revolvers as late as the 1920's and 30's basically the equivalent of someone carrying a 1911 these days?
If the people carrying a 1911 are carrying their grandpappy's 1911 or are old enough to remember a time when there was a king on the British throne, sure.
Wow conical bullets and paper cartridges make so much sense. I've never had that explained before. Really appreciate the video!
Where my Hunt Showdown squad at??
Rise up Deadman.
I ain't paying 275 when the pax is at 100 for basically the same thing.
Old guns are always fascinating! Especially revolvers :))
Good video. Reminded me of my favorite western, Lonesome Dove. Set in the late 1870’s, the two heroes still carry their ‘47 Walkers.
Those things are HEAVY.
I've seen a few original groupings with percussion revolvers and Mexican loop holsters on smooth belts. Its kinda cool to see that guys were getting the newer styles of holsters with the older guns.
Thank you for a review which relates the truth concerning nineteenth century revolvers. Few people unless that are reenactors or history buffs understand how percussion revolvers were the mainstay weapon of the "old west." They are highly reliable and powerful for self-defense. Another advantage which made the percussion revolvers had over cartridge guns was the cost of ammunition. Paper cartridges were less expensive than their metal counterparts. Again, I thank you for your review, good shooting!
Very nice presentation. My first pistol was a replica .31 caliber the I loaded with 00 buck balls. My last CNB revolver was a Ruger that I loaded with cut down maxi-balls.
Another factor was that, out on the frontier, a small out-of-the-way trading post probably wouldn't stock a lot of different calibers or new fangled metallic cartridges but loose powder, caps, common caliber bullets and lead for your mold was usually available.
Love these old civil war and frontier guns. Your "what if lever guns" as well as hickok45's channel are what inspired me to get a Winchester 66 and a Remington new model army.
Excellent video. One thing though, "conversions" is kind of misnomer. Colt "converted" old stock to use cartridges, starting with the Richard type I, and then the Richard-Masons type II. No one actually sent their firearms to Colt and have it "converted".
I love that you don't do ads. I don't do ads either. :)
A cavalry trooper during the civil war wrote that if you shot someone with a conical it would just pass right through..he stated if you hit them with a round ball it would knock them right off their horse..I have an old 1860 army sold under the replica arms name.all the tolerances fit like a bank vault and haven't loosened..it actually is a uberti. I work in scrap yards in east Detroit I've carried his weapon for 7 years everyone thinks I'm nuts but i can easily out shoot any of them it doesn't matter if you have a 5,000 round magazine if you can't make the first round count
Thanks Karl for a great video and especially for your comment about the reality of carrying spare cylinders. It seems that any one that ever watched "Pale Rider" thinks all c&b gun owners had a belt of pouches filled with them. The only semi historical reference I have ever seen was in a childs book about the Pony express which stated that their riders were initially issued with 2 Colts revolvers and a Colts revolving rifle but later that was changed to only one revolver with a spare loaded cylinder to save wieght. Sorry no references, it was a long time ago and I was quite young but I did understand what was meant. Thanks
I love shooting my repro 1860 Colt. I've been working on making paper cartridges that run well for my gun, and it's always a fun time
i don't love old west stuff but I do love history and Karl helps provide a lot of context for things I normally read as "I shot my gun" thank you for all your hard work and passion
Well done presentation, Sir! You are a well- articulated and very natural presenter.
Thank you kindly!
I really do love these videos, I'm glad you are doing more of this content. I just love guns.
Love the video and topic. Thanks for producing great content.
The Colts will generally run longer than other muzzleloading revolvers mainly because of the large diameter arbor, vs. small diameter cylinder pins in other manufacturers. You can change different length barrels quickly too.
And that arbor has a "thread" running the opposite direction of the cylinder rotation, in order to push fouling forward and out as the cylinder rotates.
Do you know much about the George Hand 1860? The one photo it doesn't appear to be an early fluted cylinder model, and it has 3 screws instead of 4. Maybe a civilian model? I couldn't zoom in close enough to see if it had the etched naval scene, but it looked as though it did.
Great comparison. The only real advantages I can think of a user may have considered in a conversion may have been the elimination of cap jams and the ability to readily unload the cartridge handgun. But in that era economics was a great influence and I agree the majority would have simply kept their Old Faithful cap and ball as it was.
Thank you karl. Great video. The kind of video you can only get at inrange .
One of the best videos on revolvers and their realistic use can't praise this enough. I defo learnt quite a bit more than I was expecting. And if you carry two guns like on red dead 2 you have more than enough with cap. I personally like Clint Eastwood idea carrying a smaller pocket revolver shoulder holstered (josey wales). He also demonstrates loading the remington in pale rider changing the whole cylinder.
But add the shoulder pocket revolver then you have 3 guns 18 rounds.
Thank you for sharing this with us. Always appreciate the scholarly presentation of your videos. Fascinating and entertaining as always. Thank you again
These are all very valid points.
However, if I knew I was going to be in a firefight, I would go ahead and load up 6 in the conversion.
Another reason that folks continued to carry percussion revolvers well into what we think of as the "cartridge era" was that every hardware store or general store in any small settlement on the frontier stocked lead ingots and bulk black powder in both rifle and pistol granulations, as well as various sizes of percussion caps (There were only a few.). Thus you could reasonably expect, having a bullet mold in the appropriate caliber and bullet weight, you would likely NEVER be out of ammunition for your revolver no matter where you were.
I really appreciate the historical information and accurate data you convey to us the viewer. Thanks guys keep up the good work