Dr. Michael Brown and Dr. Don Preston Debate Israel and Eschatology
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Does Romans 11:25-27 state that there will be a national turning of the Jewish people to God? Are there any OT or NT promises made to ethnic Israel that remain to be fulfilled? Watch the debate and leave your comments below. www.askdrbrown.org
Paul made clear that "all Israel" would actually be the faithful remnant:
"Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Romans 9:27 NKJV)
God saved the remnant of Israel prior to destroying the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, in AD 70.
Don k Preston is no joke ... he was more using the scripture to explain scripture. .... and not just pushing everything into the future saying if words have any meaning and kept repeating how this or that didnt happen .where as preston is exegeting using all scripture mr Brown is a brother and i respect him but Preston imo is more consistent and the bible makes much more sense from the preterist perspective
It sure does!
Amen. Ever since God led me to the preterist perspective I feel way more sane and in touch with what Scripture actually says
Dr. Brown, Don K. Preston here. It is clear that our debate has generated a lot of interest and discussion. I would love to have another debate to discuss the issue of the "fullness of the Gentiles" that you raised. I have had tons of private messages about this, hoping to see another debate.
What say ye?
@@mackenzie9783 your screen name is ironic
Skip it ...it's gibberish.....Preston...stop spreading this heresy...there is NO debate...your dredging up the early heresy of the Saducees
Susan - Ye are of your father the devil.
And you're an idiot
@@mackenzie9783 Amen and amen!
Dr. Brown, I see that you have produced a video attempting to refute my views on the resurrection. Please, let's debate that issue! When do you want to do that? Unfortunately, I see that you disabled comments on that video, or I would have posted this there. Come now, and let us reason together! I am ready. We can even do a formal public debate on this if you so desire! I look forward to hearing from you!
??? Which video is that?
This is what I found. Will you consider another debate with me, on the resurrection?
ua-cam.com/video/K27Cj-jPQf8/v-deo.html
Or, as I suggested before, on the issue of a future Jerusalem Temple?
Thanks for responding! I very much look forward to hearing from you!
No clue about that video; it's not mine and I didn't put it out as such, but of course, I strongly reject your position. I'll consider the debate, but I consider your denial of a future resurrection to be heretical, so I'd be approaching it in that spirit -- if we agreed to do it.
I fully understand your position. Nonetheless, I would more than welcome a debate on the subject. Just let me know!
Merry Christmas!
Don is about to drop more truth bombs! Preterism saved my faith in humanity and God. Can’t wait for round 2! Please get a different host. Dr White is way to biased and I did not like his debate protocol.
Coming from a full preterist background i was totally enriched by dons presentation, and i do like the back n forth of both men, it really does bring out the richness of fulfillment and Christ words. Cant wait for the next debate between these two men.
Daniel 12 was the final chapter on my move from Partial to Full Preterism, if you believe the Mosaic Law ended in 70AD then you have to believe the rest of the chapter and that the Resurrection also took place...
Don’t do it! Haha I know it’s 4 years later.. You can hold that fulfilled and be partial preterist. It only says some out of the graves - not all. Could be talking of the first resurrection in John 5, right?
But where do u stand now after all those years of studying?
@@Jus4kiks agreed, i dont see why taking daniel 12 and john 5 and the olivet discourse as fulfilled necessitates full preterism, i dont see the reason why i cant take the return in acts 1 and 1 thess 4 as seperate events. I see multiple kinds of ressurection in the text, a national one like in ezekial, the valley of dry bones, a spiritual one which is being born again, becoming a new creation, and a physical one such as what happened to Christ which will happen to all mankind at his return.
I think this debate was terrific. Both participants were obviously well-prepared, admired the other's ability, and were extremely well-behaved. I'd like to see more debates between these two, both longer and more in depth. Only the truth and those seeking it will profit from such healthy discussion.
If only all debates would be this friendly.
Mr. Preston was / had the most consistent hermanuetic in my opinion.
I thought Dr. Brown had the most consistent, in my opinion.
Can I have an opinion?
@@PeteJab we all do!
Until I had watched the first hour of this debate I never thought my brothers and sisters in Christ could be interpreting scripture so incorrectly as Preston does. I can not understand how a person can be so blinded by the Word of God. This is truly very saddening for me.
@@thomasfholland
I'm concerned also. He overspiritualized almost every topic to draw his conclusions.
Where does that stop?
Dr. Brown's hermeneutics on the fulfillment of prophecy seem to boil down to "The satisfying of my expectations supercedes what Jesus and his Apostles taught."
David Carraway IF u mean in terms of "blind allegiance" to the nation state of Israel, then....perhaps I'm in agreement with u (per case by case or....pt by pt analysis/discussion).
Lol. Exactly
@Geocentric and that's prophecy. Jesus sealed it. They come back during the tribulation as well. That's also prophecy. His 2nd coming is dependant on that. One more reason preterism is false.
You won't understand anything futuristic they taught if you're not grounded in the old testament.
Garland Jones lol
To those who wonder how God could promise that Israel remain a nation forever then judge the "children of the flesh" and bring an end to the Old Covenant age:
Peter, writing to those of the dispersion, the remnant from all twelve tribes, in the last days: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" (I Peter 2:9 NKJV)
God kept His promises to Israel through the remnant in the last days of the harlot, unbelieving Old Covenant Israel. His church is the "holy nation" of God.
The 144,000 firstfruits were his virgin bride. They judged their tribesmen by sharing the QUEEN"s position of authority and reigning with Christ until all was fulfilled. It is finished! what a joy to know the truth! It sets us free! We have been RECONCILED to our father, which was the purpose of Christ's coming . It was through the eternal spirit that we were reconciled to him. Heb 9:14
promisesrkept Yes!
Amen. The promise keeper God. Hallelujah!
@@ThePatriots2012 so what does that mean for Christianity in your opinion?
Israel did receive her salvation through judgment. The remnant was saved during the transition period, AD 30-AD 70, and the harlot was judged for breaking her covenant with God as prophesied.
The first century AD remnant of Israel is the foundation of the body of Christ, the church, true Israel. There is neither Jew or Gentile. The wall has been broken down. There is no other way to the Father but by the Son.
promisesrkept very interesting interpretation(s); are they your own, or product of others "works" (i.e. writings, videos, speeches, etc.,)?? I'm curious to your sources.
+al karg My view is derived from Scripture. I began researching the preterist view about 10-12 years ago. I read three books that opened my eyes and led to much study: The Parousia, The Last Days According to Jesus, and The Apocalypse Code. I began applying the principle of Audience Relevance and I discovered the many Time Statements throughout the New Testament. I found the promises to Old Covenant Israel fulfilled in Jesus and His body, the New Testament church made up of Jew and Gentile.
+promisesrkept I'm always encouraged when I hear of others who through their own personal study came to the conclusion of Fulfilled Promises.
Same story here. At first, I searched to find someone who was seeing the same things I saw. Thank God for the internet. I was a FP before I even knew it was called that.
Now, I can't help but warn those who were brought up, and are still blinded, in the Futurist Fantasy. Right Understanding means Real Life for those of us on planet earth!
al karg that’s all in the Bible
Preston was actually very consistent with Scripture. Confusion comes when one decides to follow tradition. Old Covenant Israel is gone forever. The firstfruits remnant which included the apostles and the first century Christians are the foundation of the eternal, New Covenant body of Christ. Those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise.
well said :)
God is not done with the Nation of Israel. Those who think so - are misguided. Eg Amos 9:13-15.
Joel 3:1-3 & many other scriptures.
There are physical descendants of Abraham ( like the sands on the🌅 seashore) aka Jews & there are spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua/Jesus ( like the stars 🌟🌟in the skies) aka Christians.
God desires the physical descendants to obtain salvation & righteousness through repentance to Jesus in faith & by grace, and not through the law. He still has a remnant within Israel & the Church certainly does not replace the promises God made to physical Israel.
John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for ➡salvation is of the Jews.
Paul speaking to "Gentiles" here in Romans 11:19-21 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they ( the Jews) were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
Romans 11:23 And they ( ➡The Jewish ppl) also, if they ➡abide not still in unbelief, ➡shall be grafted in: for ((( God is able ))) ➡to graft them in 🌟again🌟.
What part of "👀again" do Preterists not understand ???
Tsunshine gal try romans chapter 9.6 but it is not though the WORD OF GOD has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descend from Israel. Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendents. But through Isaac your descendents will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God but the children of the promise are regarded as descendents. ......
Tsunshine gal All nations are blessed in Abraham's SEED and that SEED is Christ Jesus.
@@Tsunshinegal All the old prophesies were for the nation of Israel in covenant. They didn't keep it, and since they sat in the position of QUEEN (at the right hand of power, interceding between god and mankind) God divorced her. Hebrew assigns gender to all persons, places and things. The law forbid a man remarrying his divorced wife but he could marry a virgin from his own people. This wedding motif is about god being reconciled to mankind again, as was Adam in the beginning. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's presence (he had been communing 'face to face' with him.) Since we know that no man has ever seen god, this hebrew expression means 'without a 3rd party mediator.' Adam communed directly with his father. He became a prodigal son and god used 3rd party mediators/intecessors until the time of reconciliation. Paul taught reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:20-24. Only a few were allowed to speak 'face to face' with God until all the 3rd party mediators (who sat in the position as a Queen, at the right hand of power to her King) were destroyed forever. Anyone, anytime, anywhere can commune 'face to face' with their father now. No 3rd party mediators will ever be needed again after Jesus and his BRIDE (144,000 firstfruits) finished their mediation in the first century. Either Jesus fulfilled all he said he would or he was a false prophet. The 'last hour' that John said was upon them cannot be 2000 years later. The KJV rendered words according to established doctrines in the 16th century. The 'end' is the greek word 'telos.' It means 'goal/fulfillment.' The GOAL of all the previous ages was NEAR to them. 1 Pet 4:7. The old things were 'passing away.' Heb 8:13.
God does not show partiality. All Noah's sons had the same parents and ancestry. Jacob and Esau had the same parents and ancestry. One was not a 'Jew' and the other a 'gentile.' They were both 'gentiles.' Which means 'nations.' The Hebrew word 'goyim' should never have been rendered 'gentiles.' Jesus and 11 of his disciples were 'Galileean gentiles' according to the KJV. 'Galilee of the Gentiles.' It should be 'Galilee of the Nations.'
There was never any ethnic "Jew." One became a Jew by circumcision and observing the laws of Moses. The nation of Israel were a mixed multitude when they came out of Egypt. Anyone could attach themselves to a tribe and be part of Israel. The covenant with the nation of Israel ended 70 AD. They sat in positions as mediators inteceding for mankind (QUEEN at the right hand of her King). No need for mediators ever again.
The people calling themselves 'Jews' today are not a race of people. That term refers to a religious affiliation.
Esau's descendants became 'Jews' by conversion during the Hasmoneon Dynasty. King of Arabia, Izates, became a Jew as did many other people of another nationality, some to gain permission to marry a women they had fallen in love with.....
'Their is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus. One family with equal access to the father. It is finished! To say otherwise makes Jesus a liar and a false prophet. Religion has lied to us. Prove all things.
You guys handled the discussion very Godly. Great respect.
Matthew 5:17-18 and Don won this debate, hands down.
Lol
Great job Don. Using sound biblical support for his argument. The first answer to the "all Isreal" question was great. As a Former pre millennial dispensationalist here, Brethren hear Mr. Preston out and examine it all in the light of scripture before you put up a wall because of your traditions. No offense but now hearing Mr. Brown defend what I used to believe makes me wonder how I never saw the beauty, simplicity, and harmony of the scriptures. Brethren understand the significance of the destruction of the temple! Stop reading the scriptures in light of OUR day and start understanding what it meant to the 1st century audience! It's all in the text! Start at Matthew 16:28. I pray that we would have eyes to see that Jesus was coming in the generation of His apostles! We can't stretch the text to meet our theology. We must question our theology instead. Listen to some of Don's videos on his channel for careful study of this reality and be blessed! We have come to Mount Zion saints! God's kingdom is within us here on earth as it is in heaven, the NEW Jerusalem! Stop looking around and looking to national Isreal. Go out and preach Christ crucified. The time has come to worship Him in spirit and in truth! Enjoy your inheritance in Christ saints. God bless you in your studies!
Adam Zara There are hundreds of great theologians of the reformed faith that wrote about and believed in the future conversion of the jews as a nation and were not premillennial or dispensational. It is a fallacy that the two go together.Read Hal lindsey the restoration of the jews intro by Steve Schlissel to a book written by David Brown DD in 1870. David brown catalogues all the previous reformed theologians pastors etc from the days of the puritans and what they said on this subject! A truly enlightening book but written in a very intellectual form...a challenge to read but very rewarding. Fo a simple more contempary analysis of the same work read Ian murray the puritan hope Banner of truth trust publishing!
John Unsworth Try reading Gal 3 &4. It explains who the bondwoman was (Hagar) and that she was 'cast out.'
His work was completed in the first century and the whore was burnt in the fire. He is now married to his virgin bride and is NEVER going back to the old whore/harlot.
@3There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.@3And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
@@ThePatriots2012 his work wasn't completed in the first coming that I can assure you. Key here to this is understanding who the two witnesses are, Malachi 3 and 4, and what happened between John the Baptist and Jesus and then the disciples. Also you have the song of Moses and Isaiah chapter 1. If you've understood the church and Israel to be separate and then went back on it you're now in error. Extreme.
@@garlandjones7709 The church and Israel are one in the same. The church in Hebrew and Greek within the old and new testaments is directly translated to "congregation" or "assembly". Paul and John makes mention of a "new Israel" and "new Jerusalem" in their letters. They are referring to the true Israel, those of faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Not all of Jacob's descendants are part of the true Israel because they rejected Jesus as the Messiah. The church is the new Jerusalem. Scripture must always be interpreted using scripture. God bless.
@@Ajsirb24 Youre absolutely correct that scripture must be interpreted using scripture. Youre absolutely incorrect in your conclusion.
The most obvious ways to view this, letting scripture interpret itsself is via the entire book of Revelation, Matthew 23 and 24 and select passages of old testament prophets. Isaiah is a very solid one.
The issue in distinction can be settled in what the PURPOSE is of the tribulation. The reason we have a tribulation at all is because of the rejection of the messiah that you mentioned. It is also centered around Israel, not the church. Clear from the new testament. What is accomplishes is restoring them back. Also seen all throughout the old testament AND new.
If Israel and the church ARE one and the same, that is only complete when the millennial reign is established post trib.
There is no symbolic, allegoral replacement. You can source Romans for this among many other new testament places. The church is Jewish. Gentiles are grafted in, but messianic rejection does not make Israel, NOT Israel any longer, nor does it eliminate or replace promises. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11.
I believe Mr. Preston presented his view with more examples and facts.
he talked twice as fast
Be a berean. It's not hard at ALL to annhialate this whole theology. I wrote 8 entire pages on this in an hour on Friday and it's most likely going to be 20 by tomorrow. The largest, easiest rebuke I've come across. Jehovas witnesses are harder to tackle than this. I highly encourage reading ALL of scripture and not just gospels and Paul's epistles.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
@@garlandjones7709 link?
@@DJ5780 brother that was literal. It was on paper. Not typed or saved or published as an article. I can however discuss it If you'd like.
All those prophecies were fulfilled in Christ
Caesar Arevalo...no they haven't, Brown is spot on, Preston is pushing cultish doctrine( Im saying this based on other teachings Ive heard) using lots of verses like word salad to try and back himself.
It just takes careful listening to spot his errors which lead to a false gospel and twisted theology that somehow Daniels prophecy in chapter 7:13 describes the ascension of Christ for example.
Preston delusion has Jesus already returned! beware Satans lies, wrapped in bible verses.
@@MRFITTA Do not make ignorant assumptions of what you know little about.
@@Ajsirb24...like I said, Preston's delusion has Christ already returned, and everything else in my comment.
If you dont recognise cultish teaching then you best sit yourself down and keep quiet.
@@MRFITTA Read the verse in context and interpret scripture using scripture.
As the visions during the night continued, I saw coming with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man. When he reached the Ancient of Days and was presented before him, He received dominion, splendor, and kingship; all nations, peoples and tongues will serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed.
- Daniel 7:13-14
There is no other biblical way to interpret this then to say that Christ ascended into heaven to "receive all authority", sitting on a "throne at God's right hand." Careful exegesis proves this clearly. Yet, you provide no evidence to disprove any of Preston's arguments. I implore you to be wiser and more thoughtful.
@@Ajsirb24 Daniel's vision is the return of the Son of Man, he ascended and will return to fulfill Daniel's prophecy.
Preston is saying the complete opposite...and if you are in agreement with him, we have a big problem.
Cults and false teachers are multiplying in these last days; it's our job as diligent followers of Christ to expose them and warn others.
That was great! Both men are scholars and gentlemen. I will listen four more times to understand where Dr. Preston is coming from, as I believe and have been taught like Dr. Brown.
Alex Stewart Yes, all the early church missed that the resurrection and the Second Coming already happened. The earliest of creeds are fundamentally flawed. But luckily, we now have people who know how to allegorize verses into submission.
@@matthewervin976
That is a great methodology/rebuttal if you’re a Catholic. However, that methodology doesn’t suit so well for those of us who believe the Bible alone is God breathed/infallible and that the words of man = fallible.
@@therealjakedean3317 Amen to that
Matthew Ervin wrote, "Yes, all the early church missed that the resurrection and the Second Coming already happened."
Apparently so. Perhaps that is why they resorted to rewriting time statements, for example, "this generation" was reinterpreted to "that generation"; "last days" to "thousands of years"; "about to happen" to "when it happens it will be about to happen"; and other such silliness. Perhaps that is also why so many Christians have been duped into believing the doctrine of the 1st-century scribes and Pharisees of a future physical, earthly kingdom.
Matthew Ervin wrote, "The earliest of creeds are fundamentally flawed. But luckily, we now have people who know how to allegorize verses into submission."
Yes, too bad some of the influential, uninspired, early Christians resorted to their vivid imaginations to interpret scripture, rather than rely on the plain words of the Lord Jesus and his inspired Apostles. Remember, Jesus warned:
_"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." -- John 13:20 KJV_
Those who reject the words of Jesus and his Apostles also reject the Father.
Dan
Don't bother with Preston. There's nothing Preston accepts from God at face value. Paul is in no wise speaking to the judgement of Israel but to the unsure salvation of those taking an arrogant view to them-"Remember the root supports you, you do not support the root," and God is ready to graft the 'broken' branches back in, because He is well able. Fear, says Paul, to those, just like the pain of Preston, wise in their own conceits.
Great debate. Both held their positions well, both had great arguments, questions, and answers.
Dr Brown holds a Ph.D in Near Eastern Languages and Literature and yet he doesn’t understand the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles and Paul.
Don won. I respect both men, however Don's arguments are the most sound.
Preterism seems more consistent
I agree It seems pretty easy and linear in the sense of an spiritual fullfilment. The problem that I have with this full preterism (and I have no problem with partial pret) is that it exhausts the prophecy in some sort of metaphorical reality as if God didn't leave any promise embeded in the new covenant for the future regarding to the physical world which has been impacted by sin from its beginning. And that raises many questions about the fact that if God vindicates his Name in the New Covenant as Ezekiel says then we have to understand that His name is imprinted in his creation as well. Then we need to think: why is this creation to stay corrupt forever as if corruption were everlasting as God? Isn't creation called good in the beginning? Why not to manifest the New Covenant for what was given to the man as well since it was for his good that was created? Is this position denying the goodness of matter? Is it implying that spirit is good and flesh is bad therefore not to be transform to its original state? If so, that pretty much sounds like gnosticism. I am very concerned about this because it feels like the resurrection is something in the mind or some kind of mental state based on the gospel and God is giving his creation to the fallen state system for a neverending test on christians who live and die to turn into spirits. Sounds not so good. When is the victory over death manifested for the vindication of truth. Just wondering, you know.
Romans 12:2
If it was so, there would be no COVID
Agree. Mr. Brown helped me a great deal but Mr. Don Preston furnished everything for me.
@Joseph Goudreau seems that way, because IT IS! 😉
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13)
When the Jewish revolt began, Nero was in Greece building a canal. Concerning the construction of this waterway, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.”[2] In recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground the sound of a trumpet was heard.[3] The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised clearly fulfills
1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable . . .
Bingo!!! 😊
Nero was definitely not 666.
I used to believe as Dr Brown. I have now changed with careful study of the Word of God. Dr Preston did an excellent job on this video.
Remember, on the day after His triumphant entry into Jerusalem, many of the citizens of Jerusalem heralded Him, saying, “Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest” (Mark 11:9-11).
But the text continues in Mark 11:13-14, “seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.”
Did Christ curse this fig tree simply to prove His deity? Did He do it for no obvious reason? Or was He impressing some great spiritual truth upon His disciples in regard to natural Israel?
This was not some pointless irrelevant act to prove Christ’s deity or omnipotence; it was an object lesson in regard to Israel. The fig tree symbolically represents the physical nation of Israel whereas the olive tree represents the spiritual people of Israel. When Christ cursed the fig tree He was demonstrating the removing of the exclusive theocratic favor of God from the physical nation of Israel, whereas, the olive tree will exist forever. Years of abusing God’s favor, years of successive misrule among the national judges and kings, and the spiritual leaders, especially among the priests, and ongoing idolatry and stubborn rebellion among the people, finally brought the theocratic reign to an end. Never again will God’s favor be restricted to a physical temporal earthly nation, but rather to a spiritual eternal heavenly nation.
The believing Gentiles have been integrated into the remnant camp of Israel under the new covenant. They are the promised “children of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7). They have been grafted into the “good olive tree” (Romans 11:17-24). They are “fellowcitizens” with the Old Testament saints of the “citizenship of Israel” (Ephesians 2:10-19). They are “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:15-16). They are “the circumcision” today (Philippians 3:3, and Colossians 2:11-14). The Gentiles who have come to faith in Christ over this past 2000 years do not form a new people of God. They become part of the one already existing people of God.
Seems Jeremiah 31 blows your dogmatic crap to smithereens and all that's left are tatters fluttering in tendrils of smoke and wind.
Jeremiah 31:37 NIV - This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD.
22 How long will you wander, unfaithful Daughter Israel? The LORD will create a new thing on earth- **the woman will return tofn the man**.”
10“Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
11For the LORD will deliver Jacob and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
18“I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God.
20Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him,”
declares the LORD.
28Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the LORD.
...
Seems you've forgotten the heart of the LORD is Mercy. That my Father is full of grace and mercy. That we pray His will, here, on earth, as it is in heaven... That if you count Israel an outcast, that is what you've become.
He knows the 'Jews' who say they are Jews and are not. But People strain at a gnat to swallow a camel, don't they. Don't you.
@@sexyeur The video was a debate which included that passage to prove each other’s points. I hope you got to watch the entirety.
@@Jus4kiks how do you dismiss Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable? Paul is taking to you.
@@sexyeur All Israel was or will be saved, obviously not every single person. For the elect, those called by God it is irrevocable.
Did you see both people use Jeremiah 31, I hope you caught it. That is why I messaged you, it seemed you had missed it.
You would have thought that the prophesied and miraculous rebirth of Israel as a state in 1948 would have instantly shut the mouths of all this replacement theology heresy. At any rate, we all see the world inevitably going to its one world government plans with the one electronic digital currency following soon. You're going to find out the hard way.
@1:23:42 Dr. Brown says, "we have been in the lasts DAYS for the last 2000 yrs. Does anyone recognize out there, that this is the "time" basis for the doctrine of futurism. That when God says the last hour, or the last days, or the "time is at hand" it can never mean what it says, it means something completely different. And the Dr. Brown says over and over "if words have any meaning" well what does the term "last days" mean in plain english if words mean what they say?
This is a great discussion! I'd just like to add my (BIG) two-cents: "I am the way,the truth, and the life...no one comes to the Father but by me".Simple really.
+mikesglider - God bless you. I just want to add that Muslim Dr Nair is falsely teaching that it is true Jesus said that and he is right is right in saying that but it is NOT unique because all the other prophets in their time including his prophet Muhammad was (was because he is dead but Jesus is forever alive) the way, the truth and the life blah, blah. It is blasphemous and coming from the mouth of the Devil.
Jaw drop moment for me at 1:15:20 as he begins to answer the question about the fulfillment of they shall beat their swords into plowshares.
Jesus prophesied the time of the end of the age would be within the disciple's generation (Mt. 24:3, 34). The writer of Hebrews indicated end the Old Covenant was imminent (Heb. 8:13). Hebrews was written well after AD34, therefore the end did not come then. The Mosaic age ended when God came in judgment of the harlot in AD70.
Ecclesiastes 1:4, “One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the EARTH ABIDES FOREVER.
The Hebrew actually means “long duration”, not “forever” as the English translations have it.
I thought I would've clearly fallen on one side of the debate but now I've a lot of thinking and studying to do! Very well thought out debate and respectful tone throughout the entire time. James did a great job moderating. Both men spoke with knowledge and conviction and have raised some points that I'll have to study on.
Enjoyed it very much! Thanks guys!
Sheila C please write me at tanyuelvisshey@gmail.com for more clarification on Mr. Preston's position.
@@tanyuelvis Matthew 24 of which this argument is based off that preterist thinks supports them is the very same chapter that destroys it in three different places
@@garlandjones7709 can you mention the 3 different places?
@@tanyuelvis verses 32 and 33. The fig tree. First off that tree represents the knowledge of israel in relation to the messiah. He just cursed that three in Matthew 19 or 21... That tree isn't becoming tender until our current time. Most notably since the 1990s.
2nd, the KEY WORD SUMMER.... is related to the 7 feasts. Jesus fulfilled the first three, the 4th is halfway fullfilled. That's Pentecost, the wheat harvest. This is still going on now and is the gap between the 69th and 70th week. It's when the church began and also signifies it's end aka the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. This is wheat and tare parable. Jesus fulfilled all 4 of those ON their dates. That's established pattern. Then Pentecost fulfills w the rapture and then the 3 others will fulfill ON THEIR DATES. there's 10 days between all 3 of them, that's it. That's where the suddenness comes in.
Also, Titus temple destruction didn't destroy it all. His left the western wall that's still prayed at today, yesterday and will be tomorrow. 70ad account is luke 21 not Matthew 24. One wars of things b4, on3 of things after.
Also, preterism defends the coming of Jesus in the clouds in 66ad and temple destroyed in 70 for their 3 and a half years. PRoblem. Jesus says coming in the clouds happens AFTTER the tribulation of jews is over. Fyi, Matthew 24 and coming in clouds is not the rapture. This is him coming to split the mount of olives for armageddon.
Lastly, as for THIS GENERATION inverse 35 IS NOT TO THOSE LISTENING. Proof? Preterist saythis is proof he was talking about ad70 or he was a liar.
Matthew 12:39 and Matthew 15:4 is quite clear that the only sign THAT generation wad getting in Jerusalem was his crucifiction and resurrection. Matthew knew this too penning this gospel. So obviously he had to be speaking of a future. Not to mention that's pulled out of context of a parable of which there's. Clear separation from his prior dialogue.
The list on this is endless.... I can lay out 2nd coming proofs for HOURS. DANIEL 9:26 forward makes it clear there is a THIRD temple. The antichrist marks an end to sacrifice AFTER the 2nd temple is destroyed and it's in plain english. So Daniel 9 alone provides proof of a third
@@tanyuelvis I understand where preterist come from. I also understand how they make everything spiritual and that's great . Scripture is made that way. It has literal meaning, and allegorical but it always has physical fulfillment. It has allegorical or spiritual application in day to day life, all of it. And all scripture also points to something related to the messiah through pattern. All of it. But there is unwritten (kind of) law that the physical and spiritual realm parallel. They are inseparably linked and this goes all the way back to Genesis 1:1. This is preterist teachings or rather interpretating/hermeneutical flaw. Props to them for not taking everything literal and only literal, but you can't discard the literal either. Even when referring to figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, analogies, etc... you still have physical fulfilment and it's always precise, especially numbers. There are no ballparks, they're dead accurate.
Outside of this as I pointed out earlier, their entire argument for WHY tgeybhold this view is null and void, debunked garbage. And that's exactly what it is is false trash. It's a major deceptions and holding that view whether you're ignorant of its implications or not, is probably salvation dependant for a handful of reasons.
Are you familiar with 2 Peter 3:5-9?
Dr. Brown brought this verse up several times:
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Romans 11:25 NASB
Speaking of Paul's statement "that a partial hardening has happened to Israel" isn't it true that "partial" here is adverbial and modifies "has happened," and not "hardening?"
If this is true, shouldn't it read something like, "A hardening has happened in part to Israel." Which is to say, the hardening isn't partial, rather, the hardening only happened to part of Israel. Which we know to be true seeing that the remnant, which included Peter, James, John, Matthew, Paul and every other Jewish convert in the 1st century, was not hardened.
OH! and by the by the bye. Ive heard Don debating for 20 years , He is the master debator.
+Brent Fleming
He is a living example of the results of disobedient believers, NOT admonishing him twice and then, fully, completely cutting him off and declaring him outside the body of Christ.
Unfortunately, for people that don't yet understand the Biblical teaching of Covenant Eschatology, which is the angle Don Preston is coming from, and might I add, is the correct hermeneutic, a debate like this that is only supposed to focus on one topic is not sufficient to change the mind of a futurist. To fully grasp Preston's argument requires a fundamental shift in hermeneutics because Covenant eschatology affects our belief about much more than how we view modern Israel.
I was a staunch futurist, and very knowledgeable of current and traditional views about the second coming until I came across Preston and others that teach Covenant eschatology and I just could not hold on to a belief that was soundly refuted by an explanation of the true meaning of end times texts. I can't tell you how much more scripture became clear. To my brothers and sisters in Christ that support Dr. Brown, I encourage you to do some deep study of the Bible and read Preston's work before you go on defending error.
Also, to anyone bold enough to accuse Preston of teaching heresy, I would be very careful with your words because God will hold you accountable. What I find interesting is that instead of us being close to the end of the world, I think we're at the beginning of another reformation. And, in the same way the Catholic hierarchy resisted Luther, so too will Covenant Eschatology meet with great resistance by the hierarchy of today.
There is no way you are going to convince me that God is done with the Nation of Israel.
Perhaps you ought to study the history of the Wars that Israel had to fight in order to survive.
➡1948: War of Independence. So many Muslims fought ( 6-7 Countries) against the Jews, yet no where in War History has the tables be turned around.. ( except the 300 men with Gideon) lol
➡1956 : Sinai Campaign
➡ 1967 : 6 day War
➡ 1973 : Yom Kippur War
➡ 1982 : Lebanese Invasion
➡ 1991 : Gulf War
➡ 2000 onwards : Suicide bombers
➡ 2006 : Operation Cast Lead with Hizbollah
➡ 2012 : Operation Pillar of Defense
➡ 2014 : Operation Protective Edge
God stands with the Nation of Israel. He fights for their survival & birth into the world. A Nation birthed in a day - who has ever heard ??
He who scatters Israel will gather the children of Israel back to the land of their forefathers. NEVER to be plucked out again !
I love Don's ability to explain the Preterist viewpoint. Especially Becouse I've come to believe it is the correct viewpoint even after being taught my whole life the premillenial futurest viewpoint. I believe this information is a gamechanger in terms of Kingdom understanding and living!!!!!!
"Been there, done that!"-Jesus
Thank you Don Preston. Pray that the Holy Spirit opens Dr. Brown's mind up to the Truth and moves away from Zionism which is so detrimental to world peace.
CINCO1005 '"For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says ADONAI: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their G-d, and they will be my people. No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know ADNOAI'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; becuase I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more." This is what ADONAI says, who gives the sun as light for the day , who ordained the laws for the moon and stars to provide light for the night, who stirs up the sea until its waves roar - ADONAI TZVA'OT is his name: "IF these laws leave my presence," says ADONAI, "then the offspring of Isra'el will stop being a nation in my presence forever." This is what ADONAI says: "If the sky above can be measured and the foundations of the earth be fathomed, then I will reject all the offspring of Isra'el for all that they have done," says ADONAI.' - Jeremiah 31:32-36; "ADONAI-TZVA'OT says, 'In the future, peoples and inhabitants of many cities will come; the inhabitants of one city will travel to another and say, "We must go to ask ADONAI's favor and consult ADONAI-TZVA'OT. I'll go too. Yes, many peoples and powerful nations will come to consult ADONAI-TAVA'OT in Yerushalayim and to ask ADONAI's favor. ADONAI-TZVA'OT says, 'When the time comes, ten men will take hold - speaking all the languages of the nations - will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, "We want to go with you, because we have heard that G-d is with you."'' - Zechariah 8:20-23; “When that day comes, I will raise up
the fallen sukkah of David.
I will close up its gaps, raise up its ruins
and rebuild it as it used to be,
12 so that Isra’el can possess
what is left of Edom
and of all the nations bearing my name,”
says Adonai, who is doing this.
13 “The days will come,” says Adonai,
“when the plowman will overtake the reaper
and the one treading grapes the one sowing seed.
Sweet wine will drip down the mountains,
and all the hills will flow with it.
14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Isra’el;
they will rebuild and inhabit the ruined cities;
they will plant vineyards and drink their wine,
cultivate gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant them on their own soil,
no more to be uprooted
from their land, which I gave them,”
says Adonai your G-d." - Amos 9:11-15. "The remnant of Isra’el will not do wrong,nor will they speak lies,
nor will there be found in their mouths
a tongue given over to deceit;
for they will be able to graze and lie down,
with no one to disturb them.Sing, daughter of Tziyon!
Shout, Isra’el!
Be glad and rejoice with all your heart,
daughter of Yerushalayim! Adonai has removed the judgments against you,
he has expelled your enemy;
the king of Isra’el, Adonai,
is right there with you.
You no longer need to fear
that anything bad will happen. On that day, it will be said
to Yerushalayim,
“Do not fear, Tziyon!
don’t let your hands droop down. Adonai your G-d is right there with you,
as a mighty savior.
He will rejoice over you and be glad,
he will be silent in his love,
he will shout over you with joy. “I will gather those of your who grieve over the appointed feasts
and bear the burden of reproach
[because they cannot keep them].When that time comes, I will deal
with all those who oppress you.
I will save her who is lame,
gather her who was driven away,
and make them whose shame spread over the earth
the object of praise and renown.When that time comes, I will bring you in;
when that time comes, I will gather you
and make you the object of fame and praise
among all the peoples of the earth -
when I restore your fortunes
before your very eyes,” says Adonai." - Zephaniah 3:13-20
'Adonai Elohim answers:
“I am beckoning to the nations,
raising my banner for the peoples.
They will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their shoulders.Kings will be your foster-fathers,
their princesses your nurses.
They will bow to you, face toward the earth,
and lick the dust on your feet.
Then you will know that I am Adonai -
those who wait for me will not be sorry." But can booty be wrested from a warrior? Can a victor’s captives be freed?Here is Adonai’s answer:
“Even a warrior’s captives will be snatched away,
and the booty of the fearful will be freed.
I will fight those who fight you,
and I will save your children. I will feed those oppressing you with their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood as with wine.
Then everyone will know that I, Adonai, am your Savior
and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Ya‘akov.” - Isaiah 49:22-26. Basically, here are scriptures referenced above: Jeremiah 31:32-36; Zechariah 8:20-23; Amos 9:11-15 (Ethnic Jews coming back to the land and remaining); Zephaniah 3:13-20; Isaiah 49:22-26 (The role for the Jewish people and there numerous passages). Please also see Joel 3:16-21; Matthew 15:22-28; Romans 11:29.
Khoury John
We are that house. Not the physical descendants of Jacob but those of like faith of Abraham. Gal 3:17.
"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you - a wild olive - were grafted in among them and have become equal shares in the rich root of the olive tree, then don't boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you. So you will say, "Branches were broken off because of their lack of trust . However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don't be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified! For if G-d did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won't spare you! So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you - provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in. For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!" - Romans 11:17-24. True G-d Fearing Gentiles are indeed the wild olive branch and thank ABBA that get equal share of spiritual blessing and the Ruach Ha-Kodesh (Holy Spirit). Please be careful not to boast. Be blessed.
@@khouryjohn7923 fulfilled in the first century. The 144,000 Firstfruits of the fall harvest from the tribes of Israel were judged worthy to sit with Jesus in the position as QUEEN, 3rd party mediators/intecessors, judging their fellow tribesmen. Why? Because they were virgins. By law a man could not remarry his divorced wife but he could marry a virgin from his own people. The 'Bride' of Christ were those who shed their blood as proof of their virginity/faithfulness . The wedding motif is about god and mankind being reconciled. When Adam sinned he was 'cast out' of god's PRESENCE. Jesus came to restore mankind's Position with their father by reconciling via the spirit. It was through the eternal spirit that we were reconciled. The 144,000 firstfruits were fulfilling the Law of Firstfruits: 'If the first pinch of dough offered to the Lord is declared HOLY then the whole lump of dough is Holy to the Lord.'
It's impossible for any prophesy to remain unfulfilled as that would make Jesus a false prophet by the very definition of one. Prophets were sent only to the nation of Israel in the old covenant while god and mankind were still unreconciled and god did not commune 'face to face' with mankind. Anyone, anytime, anywhere now can enter his Presence and commune without 3rd party mediators/intecessors. It is Finished! PTL!
Excellent presentation Don Preston, you won this debate.
He did not
@@artemusbowdler7508 yes he did
@@AlpacaLipps No, he did not.
Scripture. Israel had become spiritually Sodom & Egypt. She was also the harlot facing imminent judgment in Revelation. John called her mystery Babylon. The 144,000 were firstfruits which could only have existed in the first century AD. Paul & James referred to themselves and their contemporaries as firstfruits (Rom. 8:23; James 1:18)
Preterism and historicism are a lot more consistent than futurism.
Bravo! I really enjoyed this exchange. I've watched it twice now.
The most important idea that came forward - THE PIVOTAL POINT - is Dr Preston's question regarding hermeneutics: By what authority do we ignore Jesus' and the inspired NT writer's interpretation of OT prophecy?
This question is a huge key to our understanding. ( You can hear this question starting at 1:19:58, and a fuller discussion at 51:51)
Sadly, Dr Brown's responses to this question are disappointing and not Scripturally grounded.
In agreement with Dr Preston's question, I would emphasize Paul's revelation of The Mystery of God. Paul clearly and repeatedly makes the point that God's Eternal Plan was purposely hidden - obscured - in the OT. Paul describes that God cloaked His Plan in a Mystery in order to hide it from the rulers of that age, "... for had the powers of this age known this, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory." 1Corinthians 2:5-10.
Paul stunningly says if we do not understand this (previously hidden) Wisdom of God's Eternal Plan, then WE DON'T HAVE THE WHOLE MESSAGE!! (Colossians 1:25)
According to Paul, if we are ignorant or in denial of "this Mystery which has been hidden from ages and generations", then WE ARE NOT MATURE, and WE ARE NOT ESTABLISHED! (Colossians 1:28, Romans 16:25)
This is exciting stuff! Paul alerts us to the fact that God had hidden "the fullness of His Word", so we should be looking for this. The NT writers show us WHERE this information had been hidden. Through their Holy Spirit inspired interpretation and applications, the NT writers show us WHERE IN THE OT PROPHECIES GOD HAD HIDDEN THIS WISDOM.
So the question stands: By what authority do we ignore the NT writer's interpretations?
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this. This is a question all of us must wrestle with.
+Sonrise Highway
Thank you! Christian zionists will do anything to avoid Peter's directive that the *New Testament is the Inspired, Authoritative, Interpretation of the prophets!* 1Peter 1:10-12
Bibles weren't printed for the public until the 16th century after the invention of the printing press. It took at least a year to hand copy one and religious authorities had control of it. Paul warned about the truth being corrupted before his martyrdom by those who wanted to maintain their authority over people. The gospel is about reconciliation. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's presence. Jesus came to restore what Adam lost and gifted mankind with. All 3rd party mediators were destroyed with the temple cultus, 70 AD. They sat as a QUEEN at the right hand of power as mediators between the two alienated parties. It is finished! be reconicled to your father! 2 Cor 5:20-24. Those who have been reconciled to their father have him to be their TEACHER> Matt 23:8-10.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
@Daniel Deng And what changed in YOUR life in 70AD?
The already-not-yet only lasted 40 years in the first century.
Amazing debate, brothers, use of technology. Thank u so much
Don , OH baby !! He just gets it. Thank you!!
First thing I noticed with Dr Brown is his notion that ALL kindred, tongue and nations have not heard the gospel preached. Did ALL the people living 200 yrs ago hear the word of God preached? I don't think so, so it goes against what the scripture was saying. Yes, in that time as Paul proclaimed that the Gospel of Jesus was preached to everyone. Amen.....
People would have to be reincarnated if they missed out on hearing the Gospel being preached and we know that's not biblical.
Also, in Rev 18 (i believe) when it's talking about Babylon who is Jerusalem (the place where Jesus was crucified) scripture says that the light of the candle will shine in you no more, nor will they hear the voice of the bridegroom and the bride in you. So please tell me how does current Jerusalem expect that Jesus will come back to physical Jerusalem when scripture says it will NEVER happen?
Christ's enemies were destroyed in the first century. Is 66:6. They resided in POSITIONS of power in the temple cultus. The QUEEN was divorced, stripped of her royal robes and authority and burnt in the fire (70 AD) as required by law for a harlot. The nation of Israel were to be priests and be second in command, mediating between two alienated parties. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's PRESENCE. Jesus came to restore what was lost and the old mediators and temple cultus had to go. The wedding motif is about god being reconciled to mankind again. The BRIDE, his new QUEEN, was the 144,000 firstfruits of the fall harvest. We have been reconciled to our father, therefore, no 3rd party mediators will ever be needed again. It is finished!
Romans 10:16-18 Colossians 1:23 the Gospel was preached to all ❤️💯
I think I have to watch this debate again, maybe two more times.
Great job Don
The fair question to Dr Brown is: What was the eschatological significance of 70AD?
The preterist view totally changes how you read the bible. That is why a lot of people can't understand Hebrews, Thessalonians etc. They start to make sense.
@@joyfulpreterist7532 amen. It’s the key that unlocks the understanding of how all scripture connects together. Every other system engages in coming up with different theories to try and connect scripture together which rises questions that require more theories to answer the questions. But with preterism everything can be explained from scripture without all different theories read INTO scripture. If Occam’s razor applied to hermeneutics preterism wins by a long shot.
@@therealjakedean3317 Look up "Eschatology by Samuel Lee" over on Bit *censored* Chute - can't put those words together or youtube will censor it... it's an amazing book from the 1800's by one of the most prestigious scholars of language and a great mind of Biblical prophesy.
@@JohnDoe-le8fy
I may have a pdf of that book in my archives. Are you the same person who has the UA-cam account @Johnny Doe?
@@JohnDoe-le8fy whoever owns the UA-cam account @Johnny Doe I have no interest in communicating with them provided the complete inability to engage in cordial discussion or abide by basic rules of communication (propositional logic)
1:16 Don knocks it out the part. Yeshua says there is no Kingom that we will take up the sword. When the Kingdom comes, it wont be won by legions... you wont go out and say ahhhhhh it's over here... because the kingom is in you. Its soooooo profound in its description.
Michael brown seems to think that babies will be born and den with cobras, that lions wont care that lambs are meat and wont try to eat them. Until then he thinks that Yeshua hasn't come.
Don K Preston is awesome!! Every time I listen to him, I draw closer to God
Jesus said...“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. Matthew 21 The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers
33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will [a]render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they [b]perceived that He was speaking of them.
Great job Brown! As always... a class act.
Well done gentlemen!
yes, I thought they had a very good and godly debate.. true gentlemen
Just because we in this generation have not seen things written in the Bible with our naked eye, doesn't mean "That has not yet happened." Lets be faithful and interpret scripture with scripture and not just throw out random theories in the air. This is important to us as believers of Christ. We've been vague for too too long and Preterism states accuracy more that any view. Thank you Don for being so precise. Good debate
Thank you Dr. Preston for clarifying Dr. Brown's error in stating "If words have any meaning..." Yes, words do have meaning, but we have to properly discern exactly what is being communicated BY the words! Paul and Jesus do exactly what Dispensationalists say we shouldn't do, they "reinterpret" (Allegedly) the O.T. meanings by "Spiritualizing" the text! What they are actuallaly doing is clarifying what God himself intended to communicate, which is the TRUE, ultimate, Heavenly fulfillment of Prophecy as opposed to the proximate, earthly fulfillment, BOTH Literal! Read the principal set forth by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we [fn] bear the image of the heavenly man.
No the spiritual came first....better start in Genesis...brother this is heresy.
As a former dispensational futurist I find the fact that I once held the views of doctor brown extremely embarrassing
Tell me about it. It is my contention one is a dispy until they actual begin to think about it rather than regurgitate its rhetoric.
It’s funny that Dr. Brown swears he’s not a dispensationalist. The only person he’s fooling is himself 😂
Michael Brown isn't a dispensationalist, though he is a futurist. theofaith.org/2020/01/21/dr-michael-browns-problems-with-dispensationalism/
I just don't understand how dr. Brown can't see what down Preston is trying to say here it's so clear and precise and dr. Brown is a smart man so I don't see why he is struggling with this so much
I am disappointed to see how such a well accomplished guy like Mr. Brown ignores the symbology behind the Bible. Hence, caught up like many great leaders on an eschatology that keeps them waiting on literal event that were never intended to be so. PRESTON is a gift to Cristianty and to humanity
@@anthrolinguistica no, he's pushing a cultish worldview, one of those false teachers we're warned about.
Prestons word salad can't fool anyone who reads the bible and is Spirit filled
a transcript of this debate would be AWESOME
Thanks to Don K Preston, I'm a full preterist today. Like e everyone else we were taught a one sided version of the gospels.
This whole mix up was further confused with false John Darby theory .
Thank you guys for a mature debate. In all Jesus Christ must be lord of our lives.
too much focus on ethnic Israel. Spiritual Israel is the key, just as folks shouldn't fall for the emphasis/focus on ethnic/natural/physical/worldly Jerusalem, but cast their attentions on Yeshua and the HEAVENLY Jerusalem that John speaks of in his gospels (esp Revelation). Can the two (natural & physical) become one? Of course....but that is a God thing, not a man thing, to become a reality. H>S> needs to reveal this to all of us in all its splendor.
Had no idea these 2 debated. 2 of the best most interesting Christian minds
Did I hear that correctly? Did Dr. Brown say Jesus failed His mission?
Time stamp??
I am curious what Dr Brown would say about Paul stating that there is no more Jew or gentile but we are all one in Christ therefore affirming the consummation of all things. Fulfilled fulfilled fulfilled thank you for the great debate. Much to think about from both sides.
Fascinating stuff. Dr. Preston has some persuasive arguments but because he knows his own stuff so well he speaks too fast and goes off on too many tangents for the neutral listener to coherently process his arguments adequately. Also because his whole view of covenant eschatology is so far removed from what most people know and have believed all their lives it makes it incredibly difficult to get a grasp on his hermeneutical viewpoint which then, in the end, renders his arguments just too obscure for the layman.
The Canberean ...I agree...great comment
I don't consider myself to be a stupid person, and my own thinking appears to line up more with Dr. Preston. But my eyes glazed over listening to him. You're right; he speaks very fast and jumps from reference to reference and topic to topic so quickly and continuously that I just find myself all worn out. Better for me to read a book, I think.
That's because most people do not study the bible but accept whatever they are taught by those they trust. They do not search the scriptures to see if those things they are taught are so. Acts 17:11.
Therefore, take notes...listen to his points over and over compare it with scripture he uses and then be honest with yourself.
@@dionsanchez4478 I have tried. Many times. I've tried reading a few of his books too. Just way too convoluted and messy. All over the place. He needs a good editor.
Thank you Dr. Michael Brown for this upload! Having read every word of the Bible at least seventy times, and many vital passages and whole books many more times over, I do _not_ recognize the way in which Dr. Don Preston presents Israel and eschatology. His thinking is out of focus, to say the least. On the other hand, I do recognize your approach to the subject in hand. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with _everything_ you say concerning Israel and eschatology. It was like hearing my own notes being read! :)
good
Last Days Detective The way that Don Preston' presents Israel is through the perverted lens of anti-Semitism and the very arrogance that Paul preached about in Romans 9 through 11. Paul went through great pains to establish the God was faithful, compassionate and mercificul despite Israel's disobedience for the sake of their fathers. Mr. Preston is simply ignoring, misstating, contorting and omitting scripture to prove his anti-Semetic, preterist blasphemy.
Michael Gilroy
Those who elevate one race or nation of people over another are racist and antiChrist. 'There is neither Jew nor Gentile....' to God after the Old Covenant of DEATH was completed in 70 AD. The Mosaic Covenant did not supercede nor annul the previous one God made in the Garden of Eden and ratified with Abraham, which is the SEED, the Eternal Covenant, the Messiah.
***** Yeah I totally agree, I was actually laughing about the slip of the tongue Michael Brown made near the end of his first rebuttal where he accidentally said in the new millennium that the lion will eat the ox like the straw, instead of the lion will eat straw like the ox. I thought it was just humorous thats all. I actually believe whole heartily Michael Browns view on the millennium and thought he did a really good job and enjoyed the debate over all. Both presenters obviously thought long and hard about their positions and James White did a good job moderating the debate. Personally I look forward to more debates from these guys. I especially enjoyed Michael Browns debates with James white on calvinism and arminianism and found them also to be quite educational as well.
Has anyone ever noticed that Dr Brown looks like the face on the Turin Shroud?
yes I have noticed that, Jesus looked similar to a sephardic or ashkenazi jew... I laugh when people say ashkenazi jews are not indigenous to the holy land (ie. middle east/Israel) lmao
Dr. Preston is a great scholar and very eloquent, however, Dr. Brown is much easier to follow and makes more sense. Dr. Brown's words are full of excitement and life and I have to say that I agree with Dr. Brown, no question.
If full preterism is true, its a depressing end to the story.
Why ? having eternal life is depressing to you ?
Dr. Brown's analogy "Only God can scatter, only God can gather....How is Israel Gathered..how did it happen? Was it just statehood, Political craftsmanship?"
Answer: Yes! While God is sovereign over all things, not all things are a "fulfillment of God's promises!" God promised Sarah she would have a baby even though she was past child bearing age (Gen 18:10), God is sovereign, even over a woman's womb (1 Sam 1:5), yet, in her impatience with God fulfilling his promise, Sarah had Abraham go into Hegar the maidservant and Hegar had a child (Ishmael). So, if Dr. Brown were there when Ishamel were born, would he say "Oh look, God made a promise that Sarah and Abraham would have a baby, we know that only God can bring about a child, therefore, this must be the child of promise!" We know hat Ishmael was NOT the child of promise and I hope Dr. Brown would agree! God said to Abraham, "Take Isaac your ONLY son....."
In the same way, While the current "Nation of Israel" was inline with God's sovereignty, it is still an "Earthly" Israel and NOT the Israel of promise! The ONLY people that God himself considers "True Israel" are those who are of the FAITH of Abraham (Jew AND Gentile) and NOT of the "Flesh" of Abraham! Paul makes this point extremely clear and uses this exact same analogy in Romans 9 (also see Galatians 3 (and other scriptures). And how does one become "True Israel?" By believing the GOSPEL!!!! "The Jerusalem below is in BONDAGE, but the Jerusalem above (Mount Zion/Hebrews 12) is FREE and SHE is the mother of US ALL!"
This does not negate the fact that there may still be a "remnant" of Earthly Israel that will come into the faith, BUT they will be grafted BACK into the "Israel Tree" whose foundation is the Apostles/Prophets (Jews) and in who Gentiles have been grafted into for the last 2000 years! There is only ONE Israel tree! No the church has not "replaced" Israel, the Church was grafted INTO Israel and therefore IS Israel! True, Believing Israel who are of the faith of their father Abraham (Jew AND Gentile!).
How about you check out : Operation Ali Baba, Operation Magic Carpet, Operation King Solomon to begin with... 😊
I really enjoyed this debate. I've seen Don Debate several people over the years and I thought Dr. Brown represented his position as effectively as anyone I've seen debate Don. The challenge that Don has is to illustrate complex biblical literature to the level of the average layman. He's at a disadvantage because Dr. Brown appeals to the "plain" language hermeneutic which is much easier to win debate points on. However as James White pointed out more than once this debate really boiled down to language hermeneutics. Dr. Brown likes to present a literal reading of Isaiah 11 concerning the animals lying down together as a picture of a physical change in dynamics that are prophesied to happen. That makes sense if that "plain" language was the intent of the author. Many a trusted scholar will tell you that is "metaphorical" language denoting at the time of Messiah that the domesticated clean animals representing God's people Israel will come together in piece with Gods unclean wild animals representing Gentiles. That indeed occurred through Christ and thus the prophecy was fulfilled and has been for nearly 2000 years. If one understood this Jewish literature from this perspective then it would be noticed that Dr. Brown's challenge to Don was built upon a false premise which would have taken Don off course if he had attempted to confront every single example that Dr. Brown threw at him. That's why Don had the bigger challenge because you have to teach at the level of your audience and I doubt that most have the literature training in which they could perceive Dr. Browns overly simple challenge to Don.
However again I really appreciated the decorum and scholarship that this debate presented.
Norman Voss I believe if Don was H>S> inspired/lead, he could do so, quite easily. Excuses won't fly (long) in the Kingdom. Nothing personal. My 2 cents.
al karg I believe you err here.
Jesus had to establish a few facts for his disciples to understand that John the Baptist was Elijah and Jesus said they may have to use their brains as it didn't leap out to them at first.
RIiiight. ;-)
@@kargs5krun LOL. So the Holy Spirit is gonna dumb down his revelation? The wise shall understand having the acceptance like children.
Still following preterism?
Preston's accent is a hilarious. He sounds like a southern preacher from the 1920s.
+Garegin Asatryan
I'm glad you gathered that...while what you said is true :D it would be nice if you commented on something about the truth that he has said.
OK, Dr. Brown won the debate, obviously because he's right.
However, it amazes me how these brilliant men can continue to misinterpret Daniel Chapter 9 regarding the "70 weeks". The 70 weeks represent 70 seven year periods. It began when the order was given to Nehemiah to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 445 B.C. Using the Babylonian calendar of 360 days a year, there were sixty-nine seven year periods from that time (or 483 years) from the time the order was given until the Messiah was cut off (crucified). This leaves one 7 year period remaining. This is the 70th week which is the 7-year Great Tribulation period, yet to occur.
This is a short version explanation. But just read chapter 9 thoroughly with that explanation in mind. That will further eliminate Dr. Preston's arguments in this debate.
This is a joke.
The covenant at Mt Sinai did not annul the previous one ratifiied with Abraham and his seed, one Seed, the Messiah. One seed, the Messiah. One seed, the Messiah. One seed, the Messiah. Did you get that? the eternal covenant is the promised SEED in the Garden of EDEN and ratified with Abraham and his seed. Gal 3:17.
Ask the Father to remove the scales from your eyes of understanding.
Michael Brown must've had Galatians removed from his version of the Bible. Now I wonder who Ishmael was????....and who was Isaac???
Complete presuppositional tripe. The very thing you accuse preterists of is the very thing futurists like Brown do. They must of necessity step outside scriptures to support their view.
BTW answering from a Jewish perspective with a PhD means absolutely nothing. He is a Jew in name only and has no connection whatsoever to the Jews of the first century.
Throwing scriptures out without exegesis is without substance.
+Ted Pearce Yet more presuppositional nonsense about Preterists. Good grief man get yourself educated about something before you criticise it or those who follow it. It only makes you look foolish.
+Ted Pearce
Oh, and arrogant.
+Ted Pearce
Lamentable.
Dr Michael Brown I love your channel thank you for this channel.
You gotta respect these guys. Very nice men of God.
Having read some of the 'heated' comments here I have to say that I wish we Christians were as gracious with each other's opinions as we are with those who do not believe. I think an exercise in good manners would raise the standard here on UA-cam. I always try to disagree in an agreeable way - otherwise there is more heat than light.
1:43:03 Dr Preston says '70 weeks were determined to put away sin...Daniel clearly shows Christ was to be cut off in the middle of that 70th week, that puts his death in April 25, AD31. And the "end" of the "week" was in autumn AD34. NOT AD 70 as Dr Preston says 1:43:46-1:43:55. It is this clumsy nailing down of the "end" that many of us, including myself, get confused with when not careful.
Just a tidbit of info for every one to consider in their studies.
Dr. Brown said we have been in the Last Days for the last 2 thousand years?that his my ear funny-
The Bible says a day to God is a thousand years on earth
@@Bazooka_Sharks that me a new God is not limited to time ..
Great job! Dr.Michael Brown!!
The fullness of the gentiles has come in. It is called the new covenant. You are mistaken and are not understanding Ro. 9:4. This applies not to only a remnant of Juda but to the greater numbers of remnant who are the House of Israel.
The Jews in Israel the land, are the same house of Satan that existed at the time of Christ. They continue to deny Christ wholly. The House of Israel are the Christians who were given the deeds of Ro 9:4. Jesus said in Matt , I have come to the scattered tribes of the house of Israel. Remember Daniel 9 he clearly established that the Jews would be judged and they were
Don Preston clearly used scripture to prove his points. Being a Jew himself Mr Brown used scripture to support his believes that Israel is still the people of God. This is the same reason Jewish leader in the time of Christ were condemned. They refused to except the fact that Israel is now a spiritual nation through Christ.
One thing that was not brought up that should have been, Is the spiritual truth about the promise made to Abraham. It was never a promise limited to Israel as a nation in the flesh. The natural was only a shadow of that to come which is the Spiritual.
For example the name Israel in the natural represent the Children of Abraham in the flesh. Also it represent a physical nation in the world even to this day.
In the spiritual the name Israel means PRINCE. Genesis 32:28. In the natural the name was giving to Jacob Abraham seed according to the flesh. In the Spiritual the seed of promise is not Israel in the flesh but Christ. Christ is the seed of Abraham according to the promise It is Christ who represents the Israel of God. He is ISRAEL the (PRINCE) of God. See Isaiah 9:6, Romans 9:6-8,
Galatians 3:16 is the perfect verse to support the fact that Christ is Israel the promised seed and also Don Preston's view.
Galatians 3:16, 26, 28-29 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to
seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor
free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
In Romans 9:29 It says if God had not brought forth a seed, all of Israel would have ended up being like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Notice one more extremely interesting point. The genealogy of Abraham's seed in Luke chapter 3, end with CHRIST.
There is no more natural seed after Christ in the genealogy of the Children of Abraham. Why is this? Because fulfilled the promised of the seed of Abraham.
When Paul says In Romans 11 all Israel shall be SAVED: He is talking about all Israel in Christ. And there is a remnant of the natural linage who are saved in Christ.
Israel as a nation in the Middle East will not be saved. Don Preston made it clear that Jerusalem is now a Spiritual Jerusalem.
Jeru meaning Rock or foundation and Salem meaning PEACE. Christ is The King over the Spiritual Israel and He is the New Jerusalem.
Christ is the foundation or Rock of our peace. God Bless.
Hint: Everything this fellow says has not happened yet, has actually happened about 2,000 years ago just not in the way he imagines it should.
Sadly, he won't be able to see until the death of his natural body when he'll then find himself in another form and see the truth of all this for himself. If he denies it then, that would constitute a sin against the holy spirit of which there is no forgiveness.
The church didn’t replace the nation Israel, Christ did.
Michael Brown asked on his radio program how one can associate the term "heaven and earth" with God's covenants with Israel.
Moses, speaking to Israel:
“Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. (Deuteronomy 32:1 NKJV)
Isaiah, referring to Israel:
"But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared- The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ” (Isaiah 51:15, 16 NKJV)
John, seeing old Israel pass away and the arrival of the new Israel:
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:1, 2 NKJV)
Dr Brown
The prophets did not expect the kingdom to break in but break down. You violate your own principle by redefining the nature of the kingdom. Daniel say'd the kingdom would put an end to the previous kingdoms and an end to the 77's. You are violating your own hermeneutic.
What about the problem that maybe Just maybe Jesus alone is authentic Israel and all found in Him.
Dr brown if we have been living in the last days for 2000 years as you say the time of prophecy QUESTION where in the bible do you read there is a 2000 year gap where Israel would be removed from their land
Dr. Brown did not know what he signed up for. I doubt he will do this again.
Brown is a desperate bitter angry man of the flesh! I have my doubt if he's even saved
The Mountain of the Lord Isaiah 2 the Kingdom of God Day of Pentecost is a fulfillment of Acts 2 😁✌️
Honestly I have no idea what the full preterist is talking about. He is all over the place
+Dr. David M. Berman - That's because it doesn't make any sense. One has to suspend reality and create an alternate universe where words can mean whatever a preterist wishes they meant. You have to be able to read sentences completely separated from the context and culture they were given. And instead those passages being spoken to Jews, you have to image that the Prophets were speaking to aliens from another planet. Then it will make sense....in a sideways looking backwards sort of way
Berman: "Honestly I have no idea what the full preterist is talking about. He is all over the place"
Pearce: "That's because it doesn't make any sense. One has to suspend reality and create an alternate universe where words can mean whatever a preterist wishes they meant."
LOL You guys took the words right out of my mouth.
But I am glad that I watched this debate because NOW I understand why full preterist's explanations are so convoluted and wrong. They spiritualize everything. This is the return of the Sadducees.
Jesus was asked _multiple_ questions in Matt. 24:
1. When shall these things be (destruction of the Temple)?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming (parousias)?
3. [What shall be the sign] of the end of the Age?
"...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Matt. 24:3
Jesus' answer dealt with the 70 AD _and_ the End Times that we now seem to be barreling towards.
For example, Luke wrote to flee to the hills when you see armies surrounding Jerusalem (which happened during the First Jewish-Roman War.
But Matthew and Mark wrote to flee when you see the abomination of desolation in the Temple (which hasn't happened yet). And they cannot have been referring to the Romans because by the time they reached the Temple, many hundreds of thousands of Jews had already died of war, disease and famine in Jerusalem, and the survivors were about to be executed or sold into slavery.
The fact that the three synoptic gospels give different advice on when to flee (one of which has not been fulfilled) is proof enough that Jesus was talking about two attacks on Jerusalem, one in their day and one possibly in ours.
So, once events were set in motion in their day, _that_ generation didn't die until all was fulfilled. AND once events are set in motion in the very End Times, _that_ generation will also not die until all will be fulfilled.
Nigel, I simply pointed out the fact that Jesus wasn’t asked a single question, and his advice about when to flee mentions two completely different scenarios, one of which hasn’t happened yet.
Nigel: “If this is correct then Jesus is telling the Four disciples to flee in 70AD and again 2000 years later…nonsensical advice."
We know that Jesus wasn’t just giving advice to four men because they broadcast it and all believers escaped the destruction of Jerusalem. And since the advice wasn’t just for these four men, there is no necessity to limit it to their lifetimes.
By the way, Jesus said “..This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” in the context of a fig tree parable. That’s interesting because figs have two harvests, the first around Passover and a second around the Feast of Trumpets. The Romans sealed off Jerusalem around the time of the first fig harvest, so believers who saw the Romans advancing towards the city would have also seen the fig trees preparing to sprout, just as Jesus said.
I suspect the second fig harvest, which happens at the boundary between the old and new year (Feast of Trumpets), is connected to the second sign that Jesus advised people to flee Jerusalem from, the abomination of desolation, the man of sin entering the Temple and proclaiming himself God. And that must be in the future because it didn’t happen in 70 AD.
Regarding Daniel’s prophesies, the feet and toes of iron and clay are yet to be revealed, which many people believe to be the fourth Beast (Rome) risen from the dead, just as the Beast in Revelation 13 rises and has the appearance of Daniel’s lion, bear and leopard Beasts merged into one (perhaps an allusion to Daniel’s terrible fourth Beast).
And the Beast of Revelation 17 must refer to events that are still in _our_ future--since it speaks of a (then future) 7th king, and then an 8th king (the Beast), and then 10 more kings yet without thrones who help the Beast king and destroy the harlot false religion that controls the kings of the earth for a time-because _none_ of that has happened.
If you believe that Revelation 17 describes the fall of Jerusalem, I’d like to know how and who those kings were, and who the harlot was, and where Jesus has been since he returned and destroyed them, and where his Everlasting Kingdom on earth is?
Finally, just because the Antichrist will build a temple in Jerusalem, that doesn’t mean that God will receive their sacrifices. I believe they will build it because Paul said Jesus wouldn’t appear until after a great apostasy and the man of sin appears and enters the Temple, proclaiming himself to be God. And _that_ didn’t happen in 70 AD, either. Emperor Vespasian is the only man who could have pulled that off, but he was Rome. Anyway, the mercenary legions destroyed the Temple with haste because they hated the Jews so much.
Nigel: “If your abomination of Desolation is still in the Future then you are visiting on Modern Israel the Curses of the Law a Second Time…”
Not at all. The time of Jacob’s trouble isn’t a second judgement for rejecting Messiah. We’re agreed that judgement happened in the First Roman-Jewish War 66-73 AD. But the Jewish remnant are STILL under that curse because they’re still partly blinded, and the time of the gentiles is still ongoing.
Nigel Lloyd, these are my conclusions. A lot of prophesy was fulfilled in 70 AD, but in types; the final anti-types wouldn't be fulfilled for thousands of years. And many things in Revelation have yet to be fulfilled at all, like the end of Satan's world and setting up of Jesus' kingdom in its fullness, the resurrection and judgement of the dead. Throwing Death, Hades Antichrist, and Satan in the Lake of Fire, etc.
I believe the 7 kings are emperors, but Julius Caesar was a dictator and not emperor. In fact, his life and death left clear omens of 7 kings that would follow. For example, as they dedicated his Temple after his death, a bright comet appeared in the heavens above Rome for 7 days. This is almost unprecedented in scientific terms. They put an ominous star-shaped mark on the forehead of Caesar's image/statue in his temple.
So, the 5 fallen were the Julio-Claudian dynasty from Augustus to Nero. Three pretenders rose up but were killed quickly, so they don't count. So, the one that was in power was Vespasian, and the one to come would be Titus, who reigned just over 2 years. Making the 8th Domitian. This puts the writing in the winter of 69 AD thru the spring of the next year. It was literally months before the destruction of the Temple in August 70 AD. So, when Revelation said events that would soon be, it wasn't kidding.
However, these men were types of the final Neo-Roman Antichrist, the anti-type who would rise up thousands of years later. And I don't see the 10 kings anywhere in the past, which fits in with the saying they had it been given kingdoms yet. They will reign soon though, in my opinion. This explains why world leaders are hard at work destroying borders. They're carving the world up into 10 kingdoms, along the lines of plans detailed in the 1970s by Rome.
The Jewish harlot religion was destroyed back then, but the harlot of Rev 17 is descriptive of the Roman Catholic Church, the 7 mountains of Rome, the vestment colors, the Eucharist chalice, the finery, the blasphemous pagan practiced, persecution of Jesus' saints, the lust to control the kings of the earth, the title "Vicar of Christ," which literally translates to Antichrist. Many, many people have commented on this over the centuries because the parallels are so clear.
Brown errs in his assumption that “the times of the gentiles” is referring to gentiles being saved. But “the times of the gentiles” is referring to the tribulation, which took place from A.D. 66 - A.D. 70. It was a 3 1/2 year period (aka 1290 days) where the Romans began to overtake Jerusalem, leading up to the destruction of the temple.
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
Luke 21:24
Dr. Brown rocks!!
Dr Brown also assumes that when Paul speak of the gentiles, he is referring to the saved gentile christians, However, the term gentile refers to the unsaved gentiles that has not yet turned to Christ. Once a gentile turns to Christ and is saved, he is no longer referred as a gentile but a saint, a child of G-d. a people or person now included as a national ethnic Israel as indicated in exodus and Leviticus. In exodus and leviticus, it clearly stated that any gentile once becoming a Jew is no longer regarded as a gentile but included among the jews as a naturally born Jew. This is to say, for Paul to refer to the saved Christians as gentiles would be contrary to scripture. How is it that Dr Brown would not understand that? @9:21
Where the wolf will eat ox like the straw... Lol really enjoyed the debate well done guys very well done and extremely educational.
That's a Hebrew idiom or metaphor. The wolf (Saul/Paul from the wolf tribe of Benjamin) became a Christian and ate the same food (the living BREAD that came down from heaven) and became like a Lamb, peaceful, no longer killing people because they didn't practice Judaism.
May Father YAHweh bless your understanding.
Good topic, terrible format. No rebuttals of questions is a problem, they were allowed to go way off topic. The moderator interrupted one speaker every few minutes to mention the time and never brought it up on the other guy. No conversation really happened here, one guy spouted his stuff, the other guy spouted his, this was really just two individual lectures here. Don Preston went too deep in my opinion, he could have just spoke with Romans 9 and 11 and done the Job.
+1messiah2comings Why don't you just read your bible and just believe what it says? You need the Holy Spirit for that? Even fisherman understood Jesus words!
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
"you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes"
"this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
"I am coming soon."
"the Lord’s coming is near."
"The end of all things is near."
"Dear children, this is the last hour;"
"the time is near."
"The night is nearly over; the day is almost here."
If you need the "Holy Spirit" to help you undo the plain meaning of the text, your listening to a different spirit.
Good luck, Tom, but I advise you to ignore this immature person. Sunrise isn't interested in a conversation. He only wants to insult and bully anyone who challenges the pathetic logic he calls "theology". He will mischaracterize your words to make you look bad, and then rail against the straw man he creates from it. So, word to the wise....don't engage this dishonest person.
+Tom Mills - See what I mean? Quoting the bible is characterized as "temper tantrums" by this immature and childish person. I think he/she must be about 12 years old?
+Tom Mills - see what I mean, Tom? Sonrise makes no attempt to understand the context of a scripture, can't get his story straight twice, has to constantly mischaracterize what people say to set up the straw man he's beating up on, and then changes the subject by making every remark personal. I honestly don't think he's interested in the truth, but rather in giving the appearance of winning an argument. Sad, actually.
+Ted Pearce yes I also am a full preterist, but it took a while. I personally think in time, everyone will be. I enjoy sharpening my sword with these videos and dialogues, but I don't need to waste time slaying dragons that are dying, 1000 years from now I hope dispensationalism will be a distant memory. I don't need to shape yours or anyone else's theology, that's the holy spirit's job, but if you want to know what i personally think I love to talk about it. I would just encourage anyone to keep studying without the aid of modern commentaries or preachers. These aids can help, but first try to understand the words of the bible in the mindset of those for whom it was intended. Namely how did the disciples understand Matt 24:34 and others, or what did the churches who received the letters of revelation sent by John think he was saying? I wish you both well.
How can anyone believe this has already occurred?:
1 Corinthians 15:42-55
[42]So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43]It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47]The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Good debate i hold more of a preterist view.
Great debate. preterist won!
Majority may not be right.. you know ? How God use & deals with Israel, the Church & the unsaved in the world may not be exactly the same way.
Noah & his family were the minority & majority in his time did not believe his message. Yet Noah was right concerning the coming Flood.
Replacement theology is a doctrine of demons - from the pit of hell.
There I said it.
Everyone is dealt with in the same way and it’s cyrstal clear.
“No Man comes to the Father but by me”
There is no getting around that one, no matter the amount of mental gymnastics you eschew