Paul made clear that "all Israel" would actually be the faithful remnant: "Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Romans 9:27 NKJV) God saved the remnant of Israel prior to destroying the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, in AD 70.
@ The twelve tribes were being regathered during the terminal generation. James wrote to all twelve tribes of the dispersion and referred to them as firstfruits. They were being gathered to Messiah. He was the one to whom the promised land pointed. In Him all was fulfilled.
@ Jesus is the promised king and high priest in a spiritual kingdom. He is also the chief cornerstone of a living temple in which He would dwell with His people. It shouldn’t be ignored that the land in which these spiritual realities exist is also fulfilled in the person of Christ. Eschatology was about the end of the Mosaic age and the full arrival of the Messianic. That imminent event foretold by each inspired apostle was fulfilled in their generation in AD 70.
Dr. Brown, Don K. Preston here. It is clear that our debate has generated a lot of interest and discussion. I would love to have another debate to discuss the issue of the "fullness of the Gentiles" that you raised. I have had tons of private messages about this, hoping to see another debate. What say ye?
Don k Preston is no joke ... he was more using the scripture to explain scripture. .... and not just pushing everything into the future saying if words have any meaning and kept repeating how this or that didnt happen .where as preston is exegeting using all scripture mr Brown is a brother and i respect him but Preston imo is more consistent and the bible makes much more sense from the preterist perspective
Dr. Brown, I see that you have produced a video attempting to refute my views on the resurrection. Please, let's debate that issue! When do you want to do that? Unfortunately, I see that you disabled comments on that video, or I would have posted this there. Come now, and let us reason together! I am ready. We can even do a formal public debate on this if you so desire! I look forward to hearing from you!
This is what I found. Will you consider another debate with me, on the resurrection? ua-cam.com/video/K27Cj-jPQf8/v-deo.html Or, as I suggested before, on the issue of a future Jerusalem Temple? Thanks for responding! I very much look forward to hearing from you!
No clue about that video; it's not mine and I didn't put it out as such, but of course, I strongly reject your position. I'll consider the debate, but I consider your denial of a future resurrection to be heretical, so I'd be approaching it in that spirit -- if we agreed to do it.
Don is about to drop more truth bombs! Preterism saved my faith in humanity and God. Can’t wait for round 2! Please get a different host. Dr White is way to biased and I did not like his debate protocol.
Coming from a full preterist background i was totally enriched by dons presentation, and i do like the back n forth of both men, it really does bring out the richness of fulfillment and Christ words. Cant wait for the next debate between these two men.
I think this debate was terrific. Both participants were obviously well-prepared, admired the other's ability, and were extremely well-behaved. I'd like to see more debates between these two, both longer and more in depth. Only the truth and those seeking it will profit from such healthy discussion.
Dr. Brown's hermeneutics on the fulfillment of prophecy seem to boil down to "The satisfying of my expectations supercedes what Jesus and his Apostles taught."
David Carraway IF u mean in terms of "blind allegiance" to the nation state of Israel, then....perhaps I'm in agreement with u (per case by case or....pt by pt analysis/discussion).
@Geocentric and that's prophecy. Jesus sealed it. They come back during the tribulation as well. That's also prophecy. His 2nd coming is dependant on that. One more reason preterism is false.
Great job Don. Using sound biblical support for his argument. The first answer to the "all Isreal" question was great. As a Former pre millennial dispensationalist here, Brethren hear Mr. Preston out and examine it all in the light of scripture before you put up a wall because of your traditions. No offense but now hearing Mr. Brown defend what I used to believe makes me wonder how I never saw the beauty, simplicity, and harmony of the scriptures. Brethren understand the significance of the destruction of the temple! Stop reading the scriptures in light of OUR day and start understanding what it meant to the 1st century audience! It's all in the text! Start at Matthew 16:28. I pray that we would have eyes to see that Jesus was coming in the generation of His apostles! We can't stretch the text to meet our theology. We must question our theology instead. Listen to some of Don's videos on his channel for careful study of this reality and be blessed! We have come to Mount Zion saints! God's kingdom is within us here on earth as it is in heaven, the NEW Jerusalem! Stop looking around and looking to national Isreal. Go out and preach Christ crucified. The time has come to worship Him in spirit and in truth! Enjoy your inheritance in Christ saints. God bless you in your studies!
Adam Zara There are hundreds of great theologians of the reformed faith that wrote about and believed in the future conversion of the jews as a nation and were not premillennial or dispensational. It is a fallacy that the two go together.Read Hal lindsey the restoration of the jews intro by Steve Schlissel to a book written by David Brown DD in 1870. David brown catalogues all the previous reformed theologians pastors etc from the days of the puritans and what they said on this subject! A truly enlightening book but written in a very intellectual form...a challenge to read but very rewarding. Fo a simple more contempary analysis of the same work read Ian murray the puritan hope Banner of truth trust publishing!
John Unsworth Try reading Gal 3 &4. It explains who the bondwoman was (Hagar) and that she was 'cast out.' His work was completed in the first century and the whore was burnt in the fire. He is now married to his virgin bride and is NEVER going back to the old whore/harlot. @3There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.@3And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
@@ThePatriots2012 his work wasn't completed in the first coming that I can assure you. Key here to this is understanding who the two witnesses are, Malachi 3 and 4, and what happened between John the Baptist and Jesus and then the disciples. Also you have the song of Moses and Isaiah chapter 1. If you've understood the church and Israel to be separate and then went back on it you're now in error. Extreme.
@@garlandjones7709 The church and Israel are one in the same. The church in Hebrew and Greek within the old and new testaments is directly translated to "congregation" or "assembly". Paul and John makes mention of a "new Israel" and "new Jerusalem" in their letters. They are referring to the true Israel, those of faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Not all of Jacob's descendants are part of the true Israel because they rejected Jesus as the Messiah. The church is the new Jerusalem. Scripture must always be interpreted using scripture. God bless.
@@Ajsirb24 Youre absolutely correct that scripture must be interpreted using scripture. Youre absolutely incorrect in your conclusion. The most obvious ways to view this, letting scripture interpret itsself is via the entire book of Revelation, Matthew 23 and 24 and select passages of old testament prophets. Isaiah is a very solid one. The issue in distinction can be settled in what the PURPOSE is of the tribulation. The reason we have a tribulation at all is because of the rejection of the messiah that you mentioned. It is also centered around Israel, not the church. Clear from the new testament. What is accomplishes is restoring them back. Also seen all throughout the old testament AND new. If Israel and the church ARE one and the same, that is only complete when the millennial reign is established post trib. There is no symbolic, allegoral replacement. You can source Romans for this among many other new testament places. The church is Jewish. Gentiles are grafted in, but messianic rejection does not make Israel, NOT Israel any longer, nor does it eliminate or replace promises. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11.
To those who wonder how God could promise that Israel remain a nation forever then judge the "children of the flesh" and bring an end to the Old Covenant age: Peter, writing to those of the dispersion, the remnant from all twelve tribes, in the last days: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" (I Peter 2:9 NKJV) God kept His promises to Israel through the remnant in the last days of the harlot, unbelieving Old Covenant Israel. His church is the "holy nation" of God.
The 144,000 firstfruits were his virgin bride. They judged their tribesmen by sharing the QUEEN"s position of authority and reigning with Christ until all was fulfilled. It is finished! what a joy to know the truth! It sets us free! We have been RECONCILED to our father, which was the purpose of Christ's coming . It was through the eternal spirit that we were reconciled to him. Heb 9:14
I used to believe as Dr Brown. I have now changed with careful study of the Word of God. Dr Preston did an excellent job on this video. Remember, on the day after His triumphant entry into Jerusalem, many of the citizens of Jerusalem heralded Him, saying, “Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest” (Mark 11:9-11). But the text continues in Mark 11:13-14, “seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.” Did Christ curse this fig tree simply to prove His deity? Did He do it for no obvious reason? Or was He impressing some great spiritual truth upon His disciples in regard to natural Israel? This was not some pointless irrelevant act to prove Christ’s deity or omnipotence; it was an object lesson in regard to Israel. The fig tree symbolically represents the physical nation of Israel whereas the olive tree represents the spiritual people of Israel. When Christ cursed the fig tree He was demonstrating the removing of the exclusive theocratic favor of God from the physical nation of Israel, whereas, the olive tree will exist forever. Years of abusing God’s favor, years of successive misrule among the national judges and kings, and the spiritual leaders, especially among the priests, and ongoing idolatry and stubborn rebellion among the people, finally brought the theocratic reign to an end. Never again will God’s favor be restricted to a physical temporal earthly nation, but rather to a spiritual eternal heavenly nation. The believing Gentiles have been integrated into the remnant camp of Israel under the new covenant. They are the promised “children of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7). They have been grafted into the “good olive tree” (Romans 11:17-24). They are “fellowcitizens” with the Old Testament saints of the “citizenship of Israel” (Ephesians 2:10-19). They are “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:15-16). They are “the circumcision” today (Philippians 3:3, and Colossians 2:11-14). The Gentiles who have come to faith in Christ over this past 2000 years do not form a new people of God. They become part of the one already existing people of God.
Seems Jeremiah 31 blows your dogmatic crap to smithereens and all that's left are tatters fluttering in tendrils of smoke and wind. Jeremiah 31:37 NIV - This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD. 22 How long will you wander, unfaithful Daughter Israel? The LORD will create a new thing on earth- **the woman will return tofn the man**.” 10“Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ 11For the LORD will deliver Jacob and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they. 18“I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God. 20Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him,” declares the LORD. 28Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the LORD. ... Seems you've forgotten the heart of the LORD is Mercy. That my Father is full of grace and mercy. That we pray His will, here, on earth, as it is in heaven... That if you count Israel an outcast, that is what you've become. He knows the 'Jews' who say they are Jews and are not. But People strain at a gnat to swallow a camel, don't they. Don't you.
@@sexyeur All Israel was or will be saved, obviously not every single person. For the elect, those called by God it is irrevocable. Did you see both people use Jeremiah 31, I hope you caught it. That is why I messaged you, it seemed you had missed it.
You would have thought that the prophesied and miraculous rebirth of Israel as a state in 1948 would have instantly shut the mouths of all this replacement theology heresy. At any rate, we all see the world inevitably going to its one world government plans with the one electronic digital currency following soon. You're going to find out the hard way.
Daniel 12 was the final chapter on my move from Partial to Full Preterism, if you believe the Mosaic Law ended in 70AD then you have to believe the rest of the chapter and that the Resurrection also took place...
Don’t do it! Haha I know it’s 4 years later.. You can hold that fulfilled and be partial preterist. It only says some out of the graves - not all. Could be talking of the first resurrection in John 5, right? But where do u stand now after all those years of studying?
@@Jus4kiks agreed, i dont see why taking daniel 12 and john 5 and the olivet discourse as fulfilled necessitates full preterism, i dont see the reason why i cant take the return in acts 1 and 1 thess 4 as seperate events. I see multiple kinds of ressurection in the text, a national one like in ezekial, the valley of dry bones, a spiritual one which is being born again, becoming a new creation, and a physical one such as what happened to Christ which will happen to all mankind at his return.
That was great! Both men are scholars and gentlemen. I will listen four more times to understand where Dr. Preston is coming from, as I believe and have been taught like Dr. Brown.
Alex Stewart Yes, all the early church missed that the resurrection and the Second Coming already happened. The earliest of creeds are fundamentally flawed. But luckily, we now have people who know how to allegorize verses into submission.
@@matthewervin976 That is a great methodology/rebuttal if you’re a Catholic. However, that methodology doesn’t suit so well for those of us who believe the Bible alone is God breathed/infallible and that the words of man = fallible.
Matthew Ervin wrote, "Yes, all the early church missed that the resurrection and the Second Coming already happened." Apparently so. Perhaps that is why they resorted to rewriting time statements, for example, "this generation" was reinterpreted to "that generation"; "last days" to "thousands of years"; "about to happen" to "when it happens it will be about to happen"; and other such silliness. Perhaps that is also why so many Christians have been duped into believing the doctrine of the 1st-century scribes and Pharisees of a future physical, earthly kingdom. Matthew Ervin wrote, "The earliest of creeds are fundamentally flawed. But luckily, we now have people who know how to allegorize verses into submission." Yes, too bad some of the influential, uninspired, early Christians resorted to their vivid imaginations to interpret scripture, rather than rely on the plain words of the Lord Jesus and his inspired Apostles. Remember, Jesus warned: _"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." -- John 13:20 KJV_ Those who reject the words of Jesus and his Apostles also reject the Father. Dan
Don't bother with Preston. There's nothing Preston accepts from God at face value. Paul is in no wise speaking to the judgement of Israel but to the unsure salvation of those taking an arrogant view to them-"Remember the root supports you, you do not support the root," and God is ready to graft the 'broken' branches back in, because He is well able. Fear, says Paul, to those, just like the pain of Preston, wise in their own conceits.
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3). Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian "13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13) When the Jewish revolt began, Nero was in Greece building a canal. Concerning the construction of this waterway, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.”[2] In recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground the sound of a trumpet was heard.[3] The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised clearly fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable . . .
@1:23:42 Dr. Brown says, "we have been in the lasts DAYS for the last 2000 yrs. Does anyone recognize out there, that this is the "time" basis for the doctrine of futurism. That when God says the last hour, or the last days, or the "time is at hand" it can never mean what it says, it means something completely different. And the Dr. Brown says over and over "if words have any meaning" well what does the term "last days" mean in plain english if words mean what they say?
The New Testament written in the first century predicts a coming time "Wherein Righteousness Reigns, and where there will be NO more crying, NO more sorrow, NO more pain, and NO MORE DEATH." We absolutely have not seen a time with no more crying, sorrow, pain or death This absolutely MUST be future from us So no Preterist, ALL prophecy has NOT yet been fulfilled.
Preston was actually very consistent with Scripture. Confusion comes when one decides to follow tradition. Old Covenant Israel is gone forever. The firstfruits remnant which included the apostles and the first century Christians are the foundation of the eternal, New Covenant body of Christ. Those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise.
God is not done with the Nation of Israel. Those who think so - are misguided. Eg Amos 9:13-15. Joel 3:1-3 & many other scriptures. There are physical descendants of Abraham ( like the sands on the🌅 seashore) aka Jews & there are spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua/Jesus ( like the stars 🌟🌟in the skies) aka Christians. God desires the physical descendants to obtain salvation & righteousness through repentance to Jesus in faith & by grace, and not through the law. He still has a remnant within Israel & the Church certainly does not replace the promises God made to physical Israel. John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for ➡salvation is of the Jews. Paul speaking to "Gentiles" here in Romans 11:19-21 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they ( the Jews) were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee. Romans 11:23 And they ( ➡The Jewish ppl) also, if they ➡abide not still in unbelief, ➡shall be grafted in: for ((( God is able ))) ➡to graft them in 🌟again🌟. What part of "👀again" do Preterists not understand ???
Tsunshine gal try romans chapter 9.6 but it is not though the WORD OF GOD has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descend from Israel. Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendents. But through Isaac your descendents will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God but the children of the promise are regarded as descendents. ......
@@Tsunshinegal All the old prophesies were for the nation of Israel in covenant. They didn't keep it, and since they sat in the position of QUEEN (at the right hand of power, interceding between god and mankind) God divorced her. Hebrew assigns gender to all persons, places and things. The law forbid a man remarrying his divorced wife but he could marry a virgin from his own people. This wedding motif is about god being reconciled to mankind again, as was Adam in the beginning. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's presence (he had been communing 'face to face' with him.) Since we know that no man has ever seen god, this hebrew expression means 'without a 3rd party mediator.' Adam communed directly with his father. He became a prodigal son and god used 3rd party mediators/intecessors until the time of reconciliation. Paul taught reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:20-24. Only a few were allowed to speak 'face to face' with God until all the 3rd party mediators (who sat in the position as a Queen, at the right hand of power to her King) were destroyed forever. Anyone, anytime, anywhere can commune 'face to face' with their father now. No 3rd party mediators will ever be needed again after Jesus and his BRIDE (144,000 firstfruits) finished their mediation in the first century. Either Jesus fulfilled all he said he would or he was a false prophet. The 'last hour' that John said was upon them cannot be 2000 years later. The KJV rendered words according to established doctrines in the 16th century. The 'end' is the greek word 'telos.' It means 'goal/fulfillment.' The GOAL of all the previous ages was NEAR to them. 1 Pet 4:7. The old things were 'passing away.' Heb 8:13. God does not show partiality. All Noah's sons had the same parents and ancestry. Jacob and Esau had the same parents and ancestry. One was not a 'Jew' and the other a 'gentile.' They were both 'gentiles.' Which means 'nations.' The Hebrew word 'goyim' should never have been rendered 'gentiles.' Jesus and 11 of his disciples were 'Galileean gentiles' according to the KJV. 'Galilee of the Gentiles.' It should be 'Galilee of the Nations.' There was never any ethnic "Jew." One became a Jew by circumcision and observing the laws of Moses. The nation of Israel were a mixed multitude when they came out of Egypt. Anyone could attach themselves to a tribe and be part of Israel. The covenant with the nation of Israel ended 70 AD. They sat in positions as mediators inteceding for mankind (QUEEN at the right hand of her King). No need for mediators ever again. The people calling themselves 'Jews' today are not a race of people. That term refers to a religious affiliation. Esau's descendants became 'Jews' by conversion during the Hasmoneon Dynasty. King of Arabia, Izates, became a Jew as did many other people of another nationality, some to gain permission to marry a women they had fallen in love with..... 'Their is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus. One family with equal access to the father. It is finished! To say otherwise makes Jesus a liar and a false prophet. Religion has lied to us. Prove all things.
Just because we in this generation have not seen things written in the Bible with our naked eye, doesn't mean "That has not yet happened." Lets be faithful and interpret scripture with scripture and not just throw out random theories in the air. This is important to us as believers of Christ. We've been vague for too too long and Preterism states accuracy more that any view. Thank you Don for being so precise. Good debate
Dr. Brown brought this verse up several times: For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Romans 11:25 NASB Speaking of Paul's statement "that a partial hardening has happened to Israel" isn't it true that "partial" here is adverbial and modifies "has happened," and not "hardening?" If this is true, shouldn't it read something like, "A hardening has happened in part to Israel." Which is to say, the hardening isn't partial, rather, the hardening only happened to part of Israel. Which we know to be true seeing that the remnant, which included Peter, James, John, Matthew, Paul and every other Jewish convert in the 1st century, was not hardened.
I thought I would've clearly fallen on one side of the debate but now I've a lot of thinking and studying to do! Very well thought out debate and respectful tone throughout the entire time. James did a great job moderating. Both men spoke with knowledge and conviction and have raised some points that I'll have to study on. Enjoyed it very much! Thanks guys!
@@tanyuelvis Matthew 24 of which this argument is based off that preterist thinks supports them is the very same chapter that destroys it in three different places
@@tanyuelvis verses 32 and 33. The fig tree. First off that tree represents the knowledge of israel in relation to the messiah. He just cursed that three in Matthew 19 or 21... That tree isn't becoming tender until our current time. Most notably since the 1990s. 2nd, the KEY WORD SUMMER.... is related to the 7 feasts. Jesus fulfilled the first three, the 4th is halfway fullfilled. That's Pentecost, the wheat harvest. This is still going on now and is the gap between the 69th and 70th week. It's when the church began and also signifies it's end aka the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. This is wheat and tare parable. Jesus fulfilled all 4 of those ON their dates. That's established pattern. Then Pentecost fulfills w the rapture and then the 3 others will fulfill ON THEIR DATES. there's 10 days between all 3 of them, that's it. That's where the suddenness comes in. Also, Titus temple destruction didn't destroy it all. His left the western wall that's still prayed at today, yesterday and will be tomorrow. 70ad account is luke 21 not Matthew 24. One wars of things b4, on3 of things after. Also, preterism defends the coming of Jesus in the clouds in 66ad and temple destroyed in 70 for their 3 and a half years. PRoblem. Jesus says coming in the clouds happens AFTTER the tribulation of jews is over. Fyi, Matthew 24 and coming in clouds is not the rapture. This is him coming to split the mount of olives for armageddon. Lastly, as for THIS GENERATION inverse 35 IS NOT TO THOSE LISTENING. Proof? Preterist saythis is proof he was talking about ad70 or he was a liar. Matthew 12:39 and Matthew 15:4 is quite clear that the only sign THAT generation wad getting in Jerusalem was his crucifiction and resurrection. Matthew knew this too penning this gospel. So obviously he had to be speaking of a future. Not to mention that's pulled out of context of a parable of which there's. Clear separation from his prior dialogue. The list on this is endless.... I can lay out 2nd coming proofs for HOURS. DANIEL 9:26 forward makes it clear there is a THIRD temple. The antichrist marks an end to sacrifice AFTER the 2nd temple is destroyed and it's in plain english. So Daniel 9 alone provides proof of a third
@@tanyuelvis I understand where preterist come from. I also understand how they make everything spiritual and that's great . Scripture is made that way. It has literal meaning, and allegorical but it always has physical fulfillment. It has allegorical or spiritual application in day to day life, all of it. And all scripture also points to something related to the messiah through pattern. All of it. But there is unwritten (kind of) law that the physical and spiritual realm parallel. They are inseparably linked and this goes all the way back to Genesis 1:1. This is preterist teachings or rather interpretating/hermeneutical flaw. Props to them for not taking everything literal and only literal, but you can't discard the literal either. Even when referring to figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, analogies, etc... you still have physical fulfilment and it's always precise, especially numbers. There are no ballparks, they're dead accurate. Outside of this as I pointed out earlier, their entire argument for WHY tgeybhold this view is null and void, debunked garbage. And that's exactly what it is is false trash. It's a major deceptions and holding that view whether you're ignorant of its implications or not, is probably salvation dependant for a handful of reasons. Are you familiar with 2 Peter 3:5-9?
@10:18 to Dr Brown. At not time has Paul ever called or referred to the saints of the church as a "Gentile Church:. This si the error of Dr Brown to assume that there is such as thing as a gentile church
Michael Brown argues that Israel has not yet heard "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" [Matt 23:39,] a statement Jesus quoted from Psalm 118:26. However, this author iimplies that it was common practice for local Jews to use those exact words to greet Jews from other nations to the Passover celebration. According to her, the last time the Jews made that statement was near the end of the Jewish-Roman War of 66-70 A.D.: _"[T]he Jews considered this skirmish [with the Romans] a great triumph. Caesar as they called the son of Vespasian had been forced to fly! It was, in their eyes, the pledge and promise of their ultimate victory. Titus had not escaped unharmed; he was severely wounded."_
_"From the Far East, from Antioch and Egypt, Asia Minor and Cyprus, thousands of Jews, confiding in the inaction of Vespasian, had flocked to Jerusalem to celebrate this the last Passover. _*_For the last time worshippers approached the Temple gates singing the usual Psalms of Degrees; for the last time they were welcomed by the greeting, "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord!"_*_ and answered the priests' welcome with the words, "We have wished you good luck ye who are of the House of the Lord!" [Elizabeth Wormeley Latimer, "Judea from Cyrus to Titus 537 BC-70 AD." A. C. McClurg & Co., 1899, p.345]_ Dan
1:16 Don knocks it out the part. Yeshua says there is no Kingom that we will take up the sword. When the Kingdom comes, it wont be won by legions... you wont go out and say ahhhhhh it's over here... because the kingom is in you. Its soooooo profound in its description.
Until I had watched the first hour of this debate I never thought my brothers and sisters in Christ could be interpreting scripture so incorrectly as Preston does. I can not understand how a person can be so blinded by the Word of God. This is truly very saddening for me.
Israel did receive her salvation through judgment. The remnant was saved during the transition period, AD 30-AD 70, and the harlot was judged for breaking her covenant with God as prophesied. The first century AD remnant of Israel is the foundation of the body of Christ, the church, true Israel. There is neither Jew or Gentile. The wall has been broken down. There is no other way to the Father but by the Son.
promisesrkept very interesting interpretation(s); are they your own, or product of others "works" (i.e. writings, videos, speeches, etc.,)?? I'm curious to your sources.
+al karg My view is derived from Scripture. I began researching the preterist view about 10-12 years ago. I read three books that opened my eyes and led to much study: The Parousia, The Last Days According to Jesus, and The Apocalypse Code. I began applying the principle of Audience Relevance and I discovered the many Time Statements throughout the New Testament. I found the promises to Old Covenant Israel fulfilled in Jesus and His body, the New Testament church made up of Jew and Gentile.
+promisesrkept I'm always encouraged when I hear of others who through their own personal study came to the conclusion of Fulfilled Promises. Same story here. At first, I searched to find someone who was seeing the same things I saw. Thank God for the internet. I was a FP before I even knew it was called that. Now, I can't help but warn those who were brought up, and are still blinded, in the Futurist Fantasy. Right Understanding means Real Life for those of us on planet earth!
Bravo! I really enjoyed this exchange. I've watched it twice now. The most important idea that came forward - THE PIVOTAL POINT - is Dr Preston's question regarding hermeneutics: By what authority do we ignore Jesus' and the inspired NT writer's interpretation of OT prophecy? This question is a huge key to our understanding. ( You can hear this question starting at 1:19:58, and a fuller discussion at 51:51) Sadly, Dr Brown's responses to this question are disappointing and not Scripturally grounded. In agreement with Dr Preston's question, I would emphasize Paul's revelation of The Mystery of God. Paul clearly and repeatedly makes the point that God's Eternal Plan was purposely hidden - obscured - in the OT. Paul describes that God cloaked His Plan in a Mystery in order to hide it from the rulers of that age, "... for had the powers of this age known this, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory." 1Corinthians 2:5-10. Paul stunningly says if we do not understand this (previously hidden) Wisdom of God's Eternal Plan, then WE DON'T HAVE THE WHOLE MESSAGE!! (Colossians 1:25) According to Paul, if we are ignorant or in denial of "this Mystery which has been hidden from ages and generations", then WE ARE NOT MATURE, and WE ARE NOT ESTABLISHED! (Colossians 1:28, Romans 16:25) This is exciting stuff! Paul alerts us to the fact that God had hidden "the fullness of His Word", so we should be looking for this. The NT writers show us WHERE this information had been hidden. Through their Holy Spirit inspired interpretation and applications, the NT writers show us WHERE IN THE OT PROPHECIES GOD HAD HIDDEN THIS WISDOM. So the question stands: By what authority do we ignore the NT writer's interpretations? I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this. This is a question all of us must wrestle with.
+Sonrise Highway Thank you! Christian zionists will do anything to avoid Peter's directive that the *New Testament is the Inspired, Authoritative, Interpretation of the prophets!* 1Peter 1:10-12
Bibles weren't printed for the public until the 16th century after the invention of the printing press. It took at least a year to hand copy one and religious authorities had control of it. Paul warned about the truth being corrupted before his martyrdom by those who wanted to maintain their authority over people. The gospel is about reconciliation. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's presence. Jesus came to restore what Adam lost and gifted mankind with. All 3rd party mediators were destroyed with the temple cultus, 70 AD. They sat as a QUEEN at the right hand of power as mediators between the two alienated parties. It is finished! be reconicled to your father! 2 Cor 5:20-24. Those who have been reconciled to their father have him to be their TEACHER> Matt 23:8-10.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
Dr Brown also assumes that when Paul speak of the gentiles, he is referring to the saved gentile christians, However, the term gentile refers to the unsaved gentiles that has not yet turned to Christ. Once a gentile turns to Christ and is saved, he is no longer referred as a gentile but a saint, a child of G-d. a people or person now included as a national ethnic Israel as indicated in exodus and Leviticus. In exodus and leviticus, it clearly stated that any gentile once becoming a Jew is no longer regarded as a gentile but included among the jews as a naturally born Jew. This is to say, for Paul to refer to the saved Christians as gentiles would be contrary to scripture. How is it that Dr Brown would not understand that? @9:21
Jesus prophesied the time of the end of the age would be within the disciple's generation (Mt. 24:3, 34). The writer of Hebrews indicated end the Old Covenant was imminent (Heb. 8:13). Hebrews was written well after AD34, therefore the end did not come then. The Mosaic age ended when God came in judgment of the harlot in AD70.
The preterist view totally changes how you read the bible. That is why a lot of people can't understand Hebrews, Thessalonians etc. They start to make sense.
@@joyfulpreterist7532 amen. It’s the key that unlocks the understanding of how all scripture connects together. Every other system engages in coming up with different theories to try and connect scripture together which rises questions that require more theories to answer the questions. But with preterism everything can be explained from scripture without all different theories read INTO scripture. If Occam’s razor applied to hermeneutics preterism wins by a long shot.
@@therealjakedean3317 Look up "Eschatology by Samuel Lee" over on Bit *censored* Chute - can't put those words together or youtube will censor it... it's an amazing book from the 1800's by one of the most prestigious scholars of language and a great mind of Biblical prophesy.
@@JohnDoe-le8fy whoever owns the UA-cam account @Johnny Doe I have no interest in communicating with them provided the complete inability to engage in cordial discussion or abide by basic rules of communication (propositional logic)
Caesar Arevalo...no they haven't, Brown is spot on, Preston is pushing cultish doctrine( Im saying this based on other teachings Ive heard) using lots of verses like word salad to try and back himself. It just takes careful listening to spot his errors which lead to a false gospel and twisted theology that somehow Daniels prophecy in chapter 7:13 describes the ascension of Christ for example. Preston delusion has Jesus already returned! beware Satans lies, wrapped in bible verses.
@@Ajsirb24...like I said, Preston's delusion has Christ already returned, and everything else in my comment. If you dont recognise cultish teaching then you best sit yourself down and keep quiet.
@@MRFITTA Read the verse in context and interpret scripture using scripture. As the visions during the night continued, I saw coming with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man. When he reached the Ancient of Days and was presented before him, He received dominion, splendor, and kingship; all nations, peoples and tongues will serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed. - Daniel 7:13-14 There is no other biblical way to interpret this then to say that Christ ascended into heaven to "receive all authority", sitting on a "throne at God's right hand." Careful exegesis proves this clearly. Yet, you provide no evidence to disprove any of Preston's arguments. I implore you to be wiser and more thoughtful.
@@Ajsirb24 Daniel's vision is the return of the Son of Man, he ascended and will return to fulfill Daniel's prophecy. Preston is saying the complete opposite...and if you are in agreement with him, we have a big problem. Cults and false teachers are multiplying in these last days; it's our job as diligent followers of Christ to expose them and warn others.
This is a great discussion! I'd just like to add my (BIG) two-cents: "I am the way,the truth, and the life...no one comes to the Father but by me".Simple really.
+mikesglider - God bless you. I just want to add that Muslim Dr Nair is falsely teaching that it is true Jesus said that and he is right is right in saying that but it is NOT unique because all the other prophets in their time including his prophet Muhammad was (was because he is dead but Jesus is forever alive) the way, the truth and the life blah, blah. It is blasphemous and coming from the mouth of the Devil.
I agree It seems pretty easy and linear in the sense of an spiritual fullfilment. The problem that I have with this full preterism (and I have no problem with partial pret) is that it exhausts the prophecy in some sort of metaphorical reality as if God didn't leave any promise embeded in the new covenant for the future regarding to the physical world which has been impacted by sin from its beginning. And that raises many questions about the fact that if God vindicates his Name in the New Covenant as Ezekiel says then we have to understand that His name is imprinted in his creation as well. Then we need to think: why is this creation to stay corrupt forever as if corruption were everlasting as God? Isn't creation called good in the beginning? Why not to manifest the New Covenant for what was given to the man as well since it was for his good that was created? Is this position denying the goodness of matter? Is it implying that spirit is good and flesh is bad therefore not to be transform to its original state? If so, that pretty much sounds like gnosticism. I am very concerned about this because it feels like the resurrection is something in the mind or some kind of mental state based on the gospel and God is giving his creation to the fallen state system for a neverending test on christians who live and die to turn into spirits. Sounds not so good. When is the victory over death manifested for the vindication of truth. Just wondering, you know.
First thing I noticed with Dr Brown is his notion that ALL kindred, tongue and nations have not heard the gospel preached. Did ALL the people living 200 yrs ago hear the word of God preached? I don't think so, so it goes against what the scripture was saying. Yes, in that time as Paul proclaimed that the Gospel of Jesus was preached to everyone. Amen..... People would have to be reincarnated if they missed out on hearing the Gospel being preached and we know that's not biblical. Also, in Rev 18 (i believe) when it's talking about Babylon who is Jerusalem (the place where Jesus was crucified) scripture says that the light of the candle will shine in you no more, nor will they hear the voice of the bridegroom and the bride in you. So please tell me how does current Jerusalem expect that Jesus will come back to physical Jerusalem when scripture says it will NEVER happen?
Christ's enemies were destroyed in the first century. Is 66:6. They resided in POSITIONS of power in the temple cultus. The QUEEN was divorced, stripped of her royal robes and authority and burnt in the fire (70 AD) as required by law for a harlot. The nation of Israel were to be priests and be second in command, mediating between two alienated parties. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's PRESENCE. Jesus came to restore what was lost and the old mediators and temple cultus had to go. The wedding motif is about god being reconciled to mankind again. The BRIDE, his new QUEEN, was the 144,000 firstfruits of the fall harvest. We have been reconciled to our father, therefore, no 3rd party mediators will ever be needed again. It is finished!
1:43:03 Dr Preston says '70 weeks were determined to put away sin...Daniel clearly shows Christ was to be cut off in the middle of that 70th week, that puts his death in April 25, AD31. And the "end" of the "week" was in autumn AD34. NOT AD 70 as Dr Preston says 1:43:46-1:43:55. It is this clumsy nailing down of the "end" that many of us, including myself, get confused with when not careful. Just a tidbit of info for every one to consider in their studies.
+Brent Fleming He is a living example of the results of disobedient believers, NOT admonishing him twice and then, fully, completely cutting him off and declaring him outside the body of Christ.
Be a berean. It's not hard at ALL to annhialate this whole theology. I wrote 8 entire pages on this in an hour on Friday and it's most likely going to be 20 by tomorrow. The largest, easiest rebuke I've come across. Jehovas witnesses are harder to tackle than this. I highly encourage reading ALL of scripture and not just gospels and Paul's epistles.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
dear dr brown, am i understanding correctly when you say that the church/ gentile church is not the "spiritual israel" to where no distinction was made as to whether one was circumcised (jew) or uncircumcised (gentile) and between the physical nation of israel, through which the Seed of promise was to come through abraham (gal 3:15- 18)? to my understanding of the scriptures, the distinction (between physical israel, jews only and spiritual israel, made up of both jews and gentiles baptised in Christ forming the body of the church) is that the law was given to physical israel (deut 5: 1- 4) alone, and it was that which separated jew from gentile (eph 2: 14- 16, gal 3: 26- 29), the middle wall of separation (the law) which is broken down in the body [church] (eph 5: 23) of Christ making one new man from the two, making peace. your comments would be sincerely appreciated. take care and God bless.
Brown errs in his assumption that “the times of the gentiles” is referring to gentiles being saved. But “the times of the gentiles” is referring to the tribulation, which took place from A.D. 66 - A.D. 70. It was a 3 1/2 year period (aka 1290 days) where the Romans began to overtake Jerusalem, leading up to the destruction of the temple. “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Luke 21:24
Most helpful and enjoyable debate. This is a rare exception when I'm not in complete agreement with D.M.B. Cannot agree with Dr. Preston's full preterist position but completely agree with him as far as the question of the debate is concerned. Loved his points on the Apostles giving divine interpretation of Old Testament prophets of which not even the prophets themselves knew the "time" or the "manner" of the fulfillments, also the divorce and remarriage of Judah and Israel are rarely discussed and Dr Preston did a great job bringing it out in the debate. Could never figure out where Dr Brown was on the Kingdom being present today and Jesus reigning over it from the throne of David at the fathers right hand. Seemed to take a mixed position saying it had kicked in but not to fruition or something of that nature. Was suprised to hear him acknowledge the 70 weeks of Daniel run consecutively, he's the first premil. I've ever heard say it. Thanks Dr Brown for putting on and posting the debate it will prompt me to search the word deeper . Love all you do and it's an encouragement to many.
Dr. Michael you are absolutely right concerning the Church not ‘replacing Israel’. Having said that I’m not sure concerning your teaching as to the fullness of the Gentiles has comes in. Within the context Gentiles are Christians as contrasted with Jews.’ However, Christians are, in fact, people, from all nations, who have been ‘born-again’, Tit 3:5 [original], “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he delivered us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of a Spirit Holy:” 1Pe 1:23, “Born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible.” Because of Adam’s eating of the forbidden fruit our spirits have become ‘contaminated’. At rebirth one is ‘regenerated’, born again, and one’s spirit is ‘renewed’ the receiving of the Spirit of Christ being a member of his body, 1Co 12:12-, “For just as the body is one and has many parts, but all the parts of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and we were all given to drink into one Spirit.” There are therefore three groups: Jews, Christians and Gentiles. Christians are ‘raptured’ after the great tribulation and the preaching of the Good News to all nations. The Jews who have read and understood, Mat 24:15-, “Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee upon the mountains,” would be kept safe during the time of the great tribulation. Those who did not flee will therefore together with the Gentiles be subjected to the wrath of the God that follows the rapture, Rev 15 and 16. Those who have ‘fled’ can start counting, Dan 12:11-, “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the desolating abomination set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days shall occur. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.” As for Dr. Don he errs in that he does not distinguish between the kingdom of the God and the kingdom of Jesus, Both God the Father and Jesus are Jehovahs. A Jehovah is ‘self-existing’ and a giver of life, 1Co 15:-28-, “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that the God may be all in all… :45, And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.” Jesus’ mission was to preach the kingdom of the God, not his own kingdom, Mar 1:14-, “And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of the God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of the God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.’” The question begging an answer who are ‘them’ , ‘us’ and the gospel Peter was preaching 1Pe 1:12-, “To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you by a holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.” Dr. Don should have considered reading from verse 1 and kept to the Greek text because translators, at times, omit the definite article, guarding the ‘Trinity’ dogma. As for 1Pet 2:9-, “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into the marvellous light of Him; who formerly were not a people but now are the people of a God, who had not received mercy, but now have received mercy.” If words have meaning who is Peter addressing? Do note Acts 2:16 Peter did not say, “This is the fulfilment which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” He said, “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” The 120 upon whom the Holy Spirit came were born-again; their sins were forgiven. Joel was referring to the time when the Jewish nation’s sins will be forgiven when the Feast of Atonement is fulfilled after the time of the Gentiles has come in. As for Mat 23:39, “For I say to you, ‘You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord,"’” was fulfilled, Joh 12:12 On the next day, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, a great crowd who had come to the Feast took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him. And they cried, Hosanna! "Blessed is the King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord!" Concerning Daniel 9, I believe both Dr. Don and Dr. Michael have it wrong. Do read my understanding on my blog @ www.myhand.co.za/2011/12/06/daniel-dan-9-24-seventy-sevens-are-appointed/. Concerning who Jesus is, also read the article 'Was Jesus a Jew at birth? who fathered Jesus?' @ www.myhand.co.za/2015/12/02/was-jesus-a-jew-at-birth-who-fathered-jesus/
I am curious what Dr Brown would say about Paul stating that there is no more Jew or gentile but we are all one in Christ therefore affirming the consummation of all things. Fulfilled fulfilled fulfilled thank you for the great debate. Much to think about from both sides.
Scripture. Israel had become spiritually Sodom & Egypt. She was also the harlot facing imminent judgment in Revelation. John called her mystery Babylon. The 144,000 were firstfruits which could only have existed in the first century AD. Paul & James referred to themselves and their contemporaries as firstfruits (Rom. 8:23; James 1:18)
too much focus on ethnic Israel. Spiritual Israel is the key, just as folks shouldn't fall for the emphasis/focus on ethnic/natural/physical/worldly Jerusalem, but cast their attentions on Yeshua and the HEAVENLY Jerusalem that John speaks of in his gospels (esp Revelation). Can the two (natural & physical) become one? Of course....but that is a God thing, not a man thing, to become a reality. H>S> needs to reveal this to all of us in all its splendor.
Dr. Brown's analogy "Only God can scatter, only God can gather....How is Israel Gathered..how did it happen? Was it just statehood, Political craftsmanship?" Answer: Yes! While God is sovereign over all things, not all things are a "fulfillment of God's promises!" God promised Sarah she would have a baby even though she was past child bearing age (Gen 18:10), God is sovereign, even over a woman's womb (1 Sam 1:5), yet, in her impatience with God fulfilling his promise, Sarah had Abraham go into Hegar the maidservant and Hegar had a child (Ishmael). So, if Dr. Brown were there when Ishamel were born, would he say "Oh look, God made a promise that Sarah and Abraham would have a baby, we know that only God can bring about a child, therefore, this must be the child of promise!" We know hat Ishmael was NOT the child of promise and I hope Dr. Brown would agree! God said to Abraham, "Take Isaac your ONLY son....." In the same way, While the current "Nation of Israel" was inline with God's sovereignty, it is still an "Earthly" Israel and NOT the Israel of promise! The ONLY people that God himself considers "True Israel" are those who are of the FAITH of Abraham (Jew AND Gentile) and NOT of the "Flesh" of Abraham! Paul makes this point extremely clear and uses this exact same analogy in Romans 9 (also see Galatians 3 (and other scriptures). And how does one become "True Israel?" By believing the GOSPEL!!!! "The Jerusalem below is in BONDAGE, but the Jerusalem above (Mount Zion/Hebrews 12) is FREE and SHE is the mother of US ALL!" This does not negate the fact that there may still be a "remnant" of Earthly Israel that will come into the faith, BUT they will be grafted BACK into the "Israel Tree" whose foundation is the Apostles/Prophets (Jews) and in who Gentiles have been grafted into for the last 2000 years! There is only ONE Israel tree! No the church has not "replaced" Israel, the Church was grafted INTO Israel and therefore IS Israel! True, Believing Israel who are of the faith of their father Abraham (Jew AND Gentile!).
All the confusion here could be eliminated if they just understand that ashkenazi jews aren't the jews of the scripture. Those people as a nation are long gone.
When they tell me Jesus can’t be my savior This is my favorite part right here 😇 It is due to God one stop sinning not because of one self. Job 33:22-29. They draw near to the pit, and their life to the messengers of death. 23 Yet if there is an angel at their side, a messenger, one out of a thousand, sent to tell them how to be upright, 24 and he is gracious to that person and says to God, ‘Spare them from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom for them- 25 let their flesh be renewed like a child’s; let them be restored as in the days of their youth’- 26 then that person can pray to God and find favor with him, they will see God’s face and shout for joy; he will restore them to full well-being. 27 And they will go to others and say, ‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right, but I did not get what I deserved. 28 God has delivered me from going down to the pit, and I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’ 29 “God does all these things to a person- twice, even three times- 30 to turn them back from the pit, that the light of life may shine on them. Jesus ends sin by setting an example to live by if we take on the character of Christ sin dies that’s why through each individual is this accomplished, sin is swallowed up death is no more. 1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; In old Jewish tradition that’s how they saved people by setting an example to live by, but we know Jesus was chosen and predestined to do more then set an example for us to live by. But the ultimate goal was to create a new creation out of us. The message is clear if God sends somebody to teach you how to be upright and stop sinning it’s because of him, if he sends you visions and dreams and you turn away from sin, it is because of him.
Michael brown seems to think that babies will be born and den with cobras, that lions wont care that lambs are meat and wont try to eat them. Until then he thinks that Yeshua hasn't come.
***** Yeah I totally agree, I was actually laughing about the slip of the tongue Michael Brown made near the end of his first rebuttal where he accidentally said in the new millennium that the lion will eat the ox like the straw, instead of the lion will eat straw like the ox. I thought it was just humorous thats all. I actually believe whole heartily Michael Browns view on the millennium and thought he did a really good job and enjoyed the debate over all. Both presenters obviously thought long and hard about their positions and James White did a good job moderating the debate. Personally I look forward to more debates from these guys. I especially enjoyed Michael Browns debates with James white on calvinism and arminianism and found them also to be quite educational as well.
Fascinating stuff. Dr. Preston has some persuasive arguments but because he knows his own stuff so well he speaks too fast and goes off on too many tangents for the neutral listener to coherently process his arguments adequately. Also because his whole view of covenant eschatology is so far removed from what most people know and have believed all their lives it makes it incredibly difficult to get a grasp on his hermeneutical viewpoint which then, in the end, renders his arguments just too obscure for the layman.
I don't consider myself to be a stupid person, and my own thinking appears to line up more with Dr. Preston. But my eyes glazed over listening to him. You're right; he speaks very fast and jumps from reference to reference and topic to topic so quickly and continuously that I just find myself all worn out. Better for me to read a book, I think.
That's because most people do not study the bible but accept whatever they are taught by those they trust. They do not search the scriptures to see if those things they are taught are so. Acts 17:11.
@@dionsanchez4478 I have tried. Many times. I've tried reading a few of his books too. Just way too convoluted and messy. All over the place. He needs a good editor.
Dr Brown clearly and rightfully divided the Holy Teachings; whereas, Dr Preston believed he did but did not. I appreciate these debates and both parties for debating, not arguing in a way that pushes people away from the LIGHT, our Yehovah Yeshua. Thank you
+Garegin Asatryan I'm glad you gathered that...while what you said is true :D it would be nice if you commented on something about the truth that he has said.
How can anyone believe this has already occurred?: 1 Corinthians 15:42-55 [42]So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43]It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [45]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47]The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [50]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. [51]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [54]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. [55]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Having read some of the 'heated' comments here I have to say that I wish we Christians were as gracious with each other's opinions as we are with those who do not believe. I think an exercise in good manners would raise the standard here on UA-cam. I always try to disagree in an agreeable way - otherwise there is more heat than light.
Thanks to Don K Preston, I'm a full preterist today. Like e everyone else we were taught a one sided version of the gospels. This whole mix up was further confused with false John Darby theory . Thank you guys for a mature debate. In all Jesus Christ must be lord of our lives.
Brilliant! This was a debate that edified the body of Christ.Two VERY sincere Men who are of the same "spirit" with different views concerning what the "end of the world, the last days, the coming of the LORD, the resurrection of the dead, the kingdom of God,the kingdom of heaven .The BIG issues that have been unclear to many believers for over two thousand years. I am familiar with both sides of this debate.I see the core of this debate to be mans expectations, either of a physical kingdom or a spiritual kingdom.A Physical Resurrection from a dead carnal body to a new eternal carnal body.or being born again by a new spiritual birth from an already (spiritually dead in trespasses and sin carnal body )into a spiritual Body that Paul calls the BODY of CHRIST,ONE spiritual Body of which Christ is the head? Which is it? Dr Brownseems to be concerned with what He sees as an Earthly Nation of Israel Paul says the Body of Christ IS seated in heavenly places. Ephesians chapter 2 :1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 1st Corinthians 15 :44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. LUKE 17 :20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the wordes that I speake vnto you, they are Spirit, and they are life. (old KJV) Now to sum this up, I Just watched two very well educated men wade into very deep water. One saw things in a more "spiritual" way than the other. and I LOVED everything Both said and the way they both "reasoned" At the end this verse came to mind 1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called Notice He didn't say not any, but not many.I just watched two very well University educated Bible teachers.
You will not see me again "UNTIL" you say " Blessed is He who comes in the name of The Lord"... * Jesus Christ * Q: Whom was Jesus Christ saying these words to ? To the Jews or to Gentiles ???
Jesus said...“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. Matthew 21 The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers 33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” 41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will [a]render to him the fruits in their seasons.” 42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” 45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they [b]perceived that He was speaking of them.
Hi, I have known it, but now I feel good about it. Some few Dr's of divininty believe Daniel's 70 weeks was fulfilled or at least terminated no later than year AD70. I realize now, for sure, it ended in year AD34. I just want to share this info with my Christian colleges.
Dr Brown's interpretation of the "full inclusion" means the total number of all Israel. However, the term "full inclusion" means the total salvation of the remnant. the "full" is in reference to the "full salvation" not the "full number of people". @8:49
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
Michael Brown asked on his radio program how one can associate the term "heaven and earth" with God's covenants with Israel. Moses, speaking to Israel: “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. (Deuteronomy 32:1 NKJV) Isaiah, referring to Israel: "But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared- The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ” (Isaiah 51:15, 16 NKJV) John, seeing old Israel pass away and the arrival of the new Israel: "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:1, 2 NKJV)
I really enjoyed this debate. I've seen Don Debate several people over the years and I thought Dr. Brown represented his position as effectively as anyone I've seen debate Don. The challenge that Don has is to illustrate complex biblical literature to the level of the average layman. He's at a disadvantage because Dr. Brown appeals to the "plain" language hermeneutic which is much easier to win debate points on. However as James White pointed out more than once this debate really boiled down to language hermeneutics. Dr. Brown likes to present a literal reading of Isaiah 11 concerning the animals lying down together as a picture of a physical change in dynamics that are prophesied to happen. That makes sense if that "plain" language was the intent of the author. Many a trusted scholar will tell you that is "metaphorical" language denoting at the time of Messiah that the domesticated clean animals representing God's people Israel will come together in piece with Gods unclean wild animals representing Gentiles. That indeed occurred through Christ and thus the prophecy was fulfilled and has been for nearly 2000 years. If one understood this Jewish literature from this perspective then it would be noticed that Dr. Brown's challenge to Don was built upon a false premise which would have taken Don off course if he had attempted to confront every single example that Dr. Brown threw at him. That's why Don had the bigger challenge because you have to teach at the level of your audience and I doubt that most have the literature training in which they could perceive Dr. Browns overly simple challenge to Don. However again I really appreciated the decorum and scholarship that this debate presented.
Norman Voss I believe if Don was H>S> inspired/lead, he could do so, quite easily. Excuses won't fly (long) in the Kingdom. Nothing personal. My 2 cents.
al karg I believe you err here. Jesus had to establish a few facts for his disciples to understand that John the Baptist was Elijah and Jesus said they may have to use their brains as it didn't leap out to them at first.
Tell me about it. It is my contention one is a dispy until they actual begin to think about it rather than regurgitate its rhetoric. It’s funny that Dr. Brown swears he’s not a dispensationalist. The only person he’s fooling is himself 😂
I just don't understand how dr. Brown can't see what down Preston is trying to say here it's so clear and precise and dr. Brown is a smart man so I don't see why he is struggling with this so much
I am disappointed to see how such a well accomplished guy like Mr. Brown ignores the symbology behind the Bible. Hence, caught up like many great leaders on an eschatology that keeps them waiting on literal event that were never intended to be so. PRESTON is a gift to Cristianty and to humanity
@@anthrolinguistica no, he's pushing a cultish worldview, one of those false teachers we're warned about. Prestons word salad can't fool anyone who reads the bible and is Spirit filled
yes I have noticed that, Jesus looked similar to a sephardic or ashkenazi jew... I laugh when people say ashkenazi jews are not indigenous to the holy land (ie. middle east/Israel) lmao
Unfortunately, for people that don't yet understand the Biblical teaching of Covenant Eschatology, which is the angle Don Preston is coming from, and might I add, is the correct hermeneutic, a debate like this that is only supposed to focus on one topic is not sufficient to change the mind of a futurist. To fully grasp Preston's argument requires a fundamental shift in hermeneutics because Covenant eschatology affects our belief about much more than how we view modern Israel. I was a staunch futurist, and very knowledgeable of current and traditional views about the second coming until I came across Preston and others that teach Covenant eschatology and I just could not hold on to a belief that was soundly refuted by an explanation of the true meaning of end times texts. I can't tell you how much more scripture became clear. To my brothers and sisters in Christ that support Dr. Brown, I encourage you to do some deep study of the Bible and read Preston's work before you go on defending error. Also, to anyone bold enough to accuse Preston of teaching heresy, I would be very careful with your words because God will hold you accountable. What I find interesting is that instead of us being close to the end of the world, I think we're at the beginning of another reformation. And, in the same way the Catholic hierarchy resisted Luther, so too will Covenant Eschatology meet with great resistance by the hierarchy of today.
There is no way you are going to convince me that God is done with the Nation of Israel. Perhaps you ought to study the history of the Wars that Israel had to fight in order to survive. ➡1948: War of Independence. So many Muslims fought ( 6-7 Countries) against the Jews, yet no where in War History has the tables be turned around.. ( except the 300 men with Gideon) lol ➡1956 : Sinai Campaign ➡ 1967 : 6 day War ➡ 1973 : Yom Kippur War ➡ 1982 : Lebanese Invasion ➡ 1991 : Gulf War ➡ 2000 onwards : Suicide bombers ➡ 2006 : Operation Cast Lead with Hizbollah ➡ 2012 : Operation Pillar of Defense ➡ 2014 : Operation Protective Edge God stands with the Nation of Israel. He fights for their survival & birth into the world. A Nation birthed in a day - who has ever heard ?? He who scatters Israel will gather the children of Israel back to the land of their forefathers. NEVER to be plucked out again !
Complete presuppositional tripe. The very thing you accuse preterists of is the very thing futurists like Brown do. They must of necessity step outside scriptures to support their view.
BTW answering from a Jewish perspective with a PhD means absolutely nothing. He is a Jew in name only and has no connection whatsoever to the Jews of the first century. Throwing scriptures out without exegesis is without substance.
+Ted Pearce Yet more presuppositional nonsense about Preterists. Good grief man get yourself educated about something before you criticise it or those who follow it. It only makes you look foolish.
one of the most respectful debates I've listened to... It would be interested to see these to debate after Dr. Brown's had some time to read Preston's writings... That being said, does anyone know what Dr. Browns position is? I've heard him say that he's not a dispensationalist, but he does seem to take a fairly "literal" approach to OT prophecy... would he identify with Progressive Dispensationalism? Does he see Christ as seated on David's throne right now?
I love Don's ability to explain the Preterist viewpoint. Especially Becouse I've come to believe it is the correct viewpoint even after being taught my whole life the premillenial futurest viewpoint. I believe this information is a gamechanger in terms of Kingdom understanding and living!!!!!!
God promised to Abraham: 1. Will make him great nation, bless him and make his name great. 2. Will give the promised land (land of Israel) to his seed. 3. In him, alla families of the earth will be blessed. God is faithful. Who are we to say that the promise are no longer valid?
Sindak Situmorang, 1. He did make him a great nation, 2. He did give Israel the promised land under Joshua. 3. Anyone who wants can be blessed in Christ. Nothing is left in terms of promises...
Thank you Dr. Preston for clarifying Dr. Brown's error in stating "If words have any meaning..." Yes, words do have meaning, but we have to properly discern exactly what is being communicated BY the words! Paul and Jesus do exactly what Dispensationalists say we shouldn't do, they "reinterpret" (Allegedly) the O.T. meanings by "Spiritualizing" the text! What they are actuallaly doing is clarifying what God himself intended to communicate, which is the TRUE, ultimate, Heavenly fulfillment of Prophecy as opposed to the proximate, earthly fulfillment, BOTH Literal! Read the principal set forth by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we [fn] bear the image of the heavenly man.
I did enjoy the debate. However, Dr. Don Preston's presentation did not provide the same thorough review of the pertinent chapters leading up to the subject text of Romans 11:25-27. In addition, what he said he "demonstrated" wasn't really true. He claimed that he demonstrated but fell way short. Further, I do believe that the writing of the book of Revelation precedes the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. However, I do not agree with the full preterist view (although some will consider this the only consistent approach). I would like to see Dr. Brown debate someone more balanced in there preteristic perspectives that could carefully exegete the subject text instead of confusing matters with too many short references that cannot be covered in context in such a short debate...Dr. Kenneth Gentry comes to mind for a fantastic brotherly opponent. Also, I greatly appreciate that Dr. Brown acknowledges that not all preterists (partial or otherwise) have an anti-Semitic bend. I have lead many Jews to faith in Yeshua and have a heart to see those descendant by birth from Abraham saved. I felt as if both men handled themselves in a classy way, but Dr. Preston's full preterism is what made me consider that Dr. Brown's positions were stronger.
I have seen many times how children of a deceased family fight over inheritance. Our home is not here. Let us look at Hesus. He is the author and finisher of our life. It does not please us his bride, his brothers and sisters to quarrel over things that are fleeting. Let not the enemy deceive us and being further division among us. Be sober minded, repent and run the race as Paul urges us. We are the light of the world. If we quarrel, it’s we are here, how are we representing Jesus? As a humble follower of Christ, I plead all of us out this difference to the side and focus on the larger, more essential goal. Thank you’
Hint: Everything this fellow says has not happened yet, has actually happened about 2,000 years ago just not in the way he imagines it should. Sadly, he won't be able to see until the death of his natural body when he'll then find himself in another form and see the truth of all this for himself. If he denies it then, that would constitute a sin against the holy spirit of which there is no forgiveness.
Paul made clear that "all Israel" would actually be the faithful remnant:
"Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Romans 9:27 NKJV)
God saved the remnant of Israel prior to destroying the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, in AD 70.
But, they will be from all 12 (13) tribes. Salvation is a work of God, not of man.
And both Houses are brought back to the land.
@ The twelve tribes were being regathered during the terminal generation.
James wrote to all twelve tribes of the dispersion and referred to them as firstfruits.
They were being gathered to Messiah. He was the one to whom the promised land pointed.
In Him all was fulfilled.
@promisesrkept The Prophecy says that they will be regathered to the land.
Christ is much but not a land.
@
Jesus is the promised king and high priest in a spiritual kingdom. He is also the chief cornerstone of a living temple in which He would dwell with His people. It shouldn’t be ignored that the land in which these spiritual realities exist is also fulfilled in the person of Christ.
Eschatology was about the end of the Mosaic age and the full arrival of the Messianic.
That imminent event foretold by each inspired apostle was fulfilled in their generation in AD 70.
Dr. Brown, Don K. Preston here. It is clear that our debate has generated a lot of interest and discussion. I would love to have another debate to discuss the issue of the "fullness of the Gentiles" that you raised. I have had tons of private messages about this, hoping to see another debate.
What say ye?
@@mackenzie9783 your screen name is ironic
Skip it ...it's gibberish.....Preston...stop spreading this heresy...there is NO debate...your dredging up the early heresy of the Saducees
Susan - Ye are of your father the devil.
And you're an idiot
@@mackenzie9783 Amen and amen!
Don k Preston is no joke ... he was more using the scripture to explain scripture. .... and not just pushing everything into the future saying if words have any meaning and kept repeating how this or that didnt happen .where as preston is exegeting using all scripture mr Brown is a brother and i respect him but Preston imo is more consistent and the bible makes much more sense from the preterist perspective
It sure does!
Amen. Ever since God led me to the preterist perspective I feel way more sane and in touch with what Scripture actually says
Dr. Brown, I see that you have produced a video attempting to refute my views on the resurrection. Please, let's debate that issue! When do you want to do that? Unfortunately, I see that you disabled comments on that video, or I would have posted this there. Come now, and let us reason together! I am ready. We can even do a formal public debate on this if you so desire! I look forward to hearing from you!
??? Which video is that?
This is what I found. Will you consider another debate with me, on the resurrection?
ua-cam.com/video/K27Cj-jPQf8/v-deo.html
Or, as I suggested before, on the issue of a future Jerusalem Temple?
Thanks for responding! I very much look forward to hearing from you!
No clue about that video; it's not mine and I didn't put it out as such, but of course, I strongly reject your position. I'll consider the debate, but I consider your denial of a future resurrection to be heretical, so I'd be approaching it in that spirit -- if we agreed to do it.
I fully understand your position. Nonetheless, I would more than welcome a debate on the subject. Just let me know!
Merry Christmas!
Don is about to drop more truth bombs! Preterism saved my faith in humanity and God. Can’t wait for round 2! Please get a different host. Dr White is way to biased and I did not like his debate protocol.
Coming from a full preterist background i was totally enriched by dons presentation, and i do like the back n forth of both men, it really does bring out the richness of fulfillment and Christ words. Cant wait for the next debate between these two men.
I think this debate was terrific. Both participants were obviously well-prepared, admired the other's ability, and were extremely well-behaved. I'd like to see more debates between these two, both longer and more in depth. Only the truth and those seeking it will profit from such healthy discussion.
If only all debates would be this friendly.
Dr. Brown's hermeneutics on the fulfillment of prophecy seem to boil down to "The satisfying of my expectations supercedes what Jesus and his Apostles taught."
David Carraway IF u mean in terms of "blind allegiance" to the nation state of Israel, then....perhaps I'm in agreement with u (per case by case or....pt by pt analysis/discussion).
Lol. Exactly
@Geocentric and that's prophecy. Jesus sealed it. They come back during the tribulation as well. That's also prophecy. His 2nd coming is dependant on that. One more reason preterism is false.
You won't understand anything futuristic they taught if you're not grounded in the old testament.
Garland Jones lol
Great job Don. Using sound biblical support for his argument. The first answer to the "all Isreal" question was great. As a Former pre millennial dispensationalist here, Brethren hear Mr. Preston out and examine it all in the light of scripture before you put up a wall because of your traditions. No offense but now hearing Mr. Brown defend what I used to believe makes me wonder how I never saw the beauty, simplicity, and harmony of the scriptures. Brethren understand the significance of the destruction of the temple! Stop reading the scriptures in light of OUR day and start understanding what it meant to the 1st century audience! It's all in the text! Start at Matthew 16:28. I pray that we would have eyes to see that Jesus was coming in the generation of His apostles! We can't stretch the text to meet our theology. We must question our theology instead. Listen to some of Don's videos on his channel for careful study of this reality and be blessed! We have come to Mount Zion saints! God's kingdom is within us here on earth as it is in heaven, the NEW Jerusalem! Stop looking around and looking to national Isreal. Go out and preach Christ crucified. The time has come to worship Him in spirit and in truth! Enjoy your inheritance in Christ saints. God bless you in your studies!
Adam Zara There are hundreds of great theologians of the reformed faith that wrote about and believed in the future conversion of the jews as a nation and were not premillennial or dispensational. It is a fallacy that the two go together.Read Hal lindsey the restoration of the jews intro by Steve Schlissel to a book written by David Brown DD in 1870. David brown catalogues all the previous reformed theologians pastors etc from the days of the puritans and what they said on this subject! A truly enlightening book but written in a very intellectual form...a challenge to read but very rewarding. Fo a simple more contempary analysis of the same work read Ian murray the puritan hope Banner of truth trust publishing!
John Unsworth Try reading Gal 3 &4. It explains who the bondwoman was (Hagar) and that she was 'cast out.'
His work was completed in the first century and the whore was burnt in the fire. He is now married to his virgin bride and is NEVER going back to the old whore/harlot.
@3There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.@3And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
@@ThePatriots2012 his work wasn't completed in the first coming that I can assure you. Key here to this is understanding who the two witnesses are, Malachi 3 and 4, and what happened between John the Baptist and Jesus and then the disciples. Also you have the song of Moses and Isaiah chapter 1. If you've understood the church and Israel to be separate and then went back on it you're now in error. Extreme.
@@garlandjones7709 The church and Israel are one in the same. The church in Hebrew and Greek within the old and new testaments is directly translated to "congregation" or "assembly". Paul and John makes mention of a "new Israel" and "new Jerusalem" in their letters. They are referring to the true Israel, those of faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Not all of Jacob's descendants are part of the true Israel because they rejected Jesus as the Messiah. The church is the new Jerusalem. Scripture must always be interpreted using scripture. God bless.
@@Ajsirb24 Youre absolutely correct that scripture must be interpreted using scripture. Youre absolutely incorrect in your conclusion.
The most obvious ways to view this, letting scripture interpret itsself is via the entire book of Revelation, Matthew 23 and 24 and select passages of old testament prophets. Isaiah is a very solid one.
The issue in distinction can be settled in what the PURPOSE is of the tribulation. The reason we have a tribulation at all is because of the rejection of the messiah that you mentioned. It is also centered around Israel, not the church. Clear from the new testament. What is accomplishes is restoring them back. Also seen all throughout the old testament AND new.
If Israel and the church ARE one and the same, that is only complete when the millennial reign is established post trib.
There is no symbolic, allegoral replacement. You can source Romans for this among many other new testament places. The church is Jewish. Gentiles are grafted in, but messianic rejection does not make Israel, NOT Israel any longer, nor does it eliminate or replace promises. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11.
To those who wonder how God could promise that Israel remain a nation forever then judge the "children of the flesh" and bring an end to the Old Covenant age:
Peter, writing to those of the dispersion, the remnant from all twelve tribes, in the last days: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" (I Peter 2:9 NKJV)
God kept His promises to Israel through the remnant in the last days of the harlot, unbelieving Old Covenant Israel. His church is the "holy nation" of God.
The 144,000 firstfruits were his virgin bride. They judged their tribesmen by sharing the QUEEN"s position of authority and reigning with Christ until all was fulfilled. It is finished! what a joy to know the truth! It sets us free! We have been RECONCILED to our father, which was the purpose of Christ's coming . It was through the eternal spirit that we were reconciled to him. Heb 9:14
promisesrkept Yes!
Amen. The promise keeper God. Hallelujah!
@@ThePatriots2012 so what does that mean for Christianity in your opinion?
Jaw drop moment for me at 1:15:20 as he begins to answer the question about the fulfillment of they shall beat their swords into plowshares.
You guys handled the discussion very Godly. Great respect.
I used to believe as Dr Brown. I have now changed with careful study of the Word of God. Dr Preston did an excellent job on this video.
Remember, on the day after His triumphant entry into Jerusalem, many of the citizens of Jerusalem heralded Him, saying, “Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest” (Mark 11:9-11).
But the text continues in Mark 11:13-14, “seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.”
Did Christ curse this fig tree simply to prove His deity? Did He do it for no obvious reason? Or was He impressing some great spiritual truth upon His disciples in regard to natural Israel?
This was not some pointless irrelevant act to prove Christ’s deity or omnipotence; it was an object lesson in regard to Israel. The fig tree symbolically represents the physical nation of Israel whereas the olive tree represents the spiritual people of Israel. When Christ cursed the fig tree He was demonstrating the removing of the exclusive theocratic favor of God from the physical nation of Israel, whereas, the olive tree will exist forever. Years of abusing God’s favor, years of successive misrule among the national judges and kings, and the spiritual leaders, especially among the priests, and ongoing idolatry and stubborn rebellion among the people, finally brought the theocratic reign to an end. Never again will God’s favor be restricted to a physical temporal earthly nation, but rather to a spiritual eternal heavenly nation.
The believing Gentiles have been integrated into the remnant camp of Israel under the new covenant. They are the promised “children of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7). They have been grafted into the “good olive tree” (Romans 11:17-24). They are “fellowcitizens” with the Old Testament saints of the “citizenship of Israel” (Ephesians 2:10-19). They are “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:15-16). They are “the circumcision” today (Philippians 3:3, and Colossians 2:11-14). The Gentiles who have come to faith in Christ over this past 2000 years do not form a new people of God. They become part of the one already existing people of God.
Seems Jeremiah 31 blows your dogmatic crap to smithereens and all that's left are tatters fluttering in tendrils of smoke and wind.
Jeremiah 31:37 NIV - This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD.
22 How long will you wander, unfaithful Daughter Israel? The LORD will create a new thing on earth- **the woman will return tofn the man**.”
10“Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
11For the LORD will deliver Jacob and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
18“I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God.
20Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him,”
declares the LORD.
28Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the LORD.
...
Seems you've forgotten the heart of the LORD is Mercy. That my Father is full of grace and mercy. That we pray His will, here, on earth, as it is in heaven... That if you count Israel an outcast, that is what you've become.
He knows the 'Jews' who say they are Jews and are not. But People strain at a gnat to swallow a camel, don't they. Don't you.
@@sexyeur The video was a debate which included that passage to prove each other’s points. I hope you got to watch the entirety.
@@Jus4kiks how do you dismiss Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable? Paul is taking to you.
@@sexyeur All Israel was or will be saved, obviously not every single person. For the elect, those called by God it is irrevocable.
Did you see both people use Jeremiah 31, I hope you caught it. That is why I messaged you, it seemed you had missed it.
You would have thought that the prophesied and miraculous rebirth of Israel as a state in 1948 would have instantly shut the mouths of all this replacement theology heresy. At any rate, we all see the world inevitably going to its one world government plans with the one electronic digital currency following soon. You're going to find out the hard way.
Daniel 12 was the final chapter on my move from Partial to Full Preterism, if you believe the Mosaic Law ended in 70AD then you have to believe the rest of the chapter and that the Resurrection also took place...
Don’t do it! Haha I know it’s 4 years later.. You can hold that fulfilled and be partial preterist. It only says some out of the graves - not all. Could be talking of the first resurrection in John 5, right?
But where do u stand now after all those years of studying?
@@Jus4kiks agreed, i dont see why taking daniel 12 and john 5 and the olivet discourse as fulfilled necessitates full preterism, i dont see the reason why i cant take the return in acts 1 and 1 thess 4 as seperate events. I see multiple kinds of ressurection in the text, a national one like in ezekial, the valley of dry bones, a spiritual one which is being born again, becoming a new creation, and a physical one such as what happened to Christ which will happen to all mankind at his return.
Matthew 5:17-18 and Don won this debate, hands down.
Lol
That was great! Both men are scholars and gentlemen. I will listen four more times to understand where Dr. Preston is coming from, as I believe and have been taught like Dr. Brown.
Alex Stewart Yes, all the early church missed that the resurrection and the Second Coming already happened. The earliest of creeds are fundamentally flawed. But luckily, we now have people who know how to allegorize verses into submission.
@@matthewervin976
That is a great methodology/rebuttal if you’re a Catholic. However, that methodology doesn’t suit so well for those of us who believe the Bible alone is God breathed/infallible and that the words of man = fallible.
@@therealjakedean3317 Amen to that
Matthew Ervin wrote, "Yes, all the early church missed that the resurrection and the Second Coming already happened."
Apparently so. Perhaps that is why they resorted to rewriting time statements, for example, "this generation" was reinterpreted to "that generation"; "last days" to "thousands of years"; "about to happen" to "when it happens it will be about to happen"; and other such silliness. Perhaps that is also why so many Christians have been duped into believing the doctrine of the 1st-century scribes and Pharisees of a future physical, earthly kingdom.
Matthew Ervin wrote, "The earliest of creeds are fundamentally flawed. But luckily, we now have people who know how to allegorize verses into submission."
Yes, too bad some of the influential, uninspired, early Christians resorted to their vivid imaginations to interpret scripture, rather than rely on the plain words of the Lord Jesus and his inspired Apostles. Remember, Jesus warned:
_"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." -- John 13:20 KJV_
Those who reject the words of Jesus and his Apostles also reject the Father.
Dan
Don't bother with Preston. There's nothing Preston accepts from God at face value. Paul is in no wise speaking to the judgement of Israel but to the unsure salvation of those taking an arrogant view to them-"Remember the root supports you, you do not support the root," and God is ready to graft the 'broken' branches back in, because He is well able. Fear, says Paul, to those, just like the pain of Preston, wise in their own conceits.
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13)
When the Jewish revolt began, Nero was in Greece building a canal. Concerning the construction of this waterway, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.”[2] In recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground the sound of a trumpet was heard.[3] The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised clearly fulfills
1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable . . .
Bingo!!! 😊
Nero was definitely not 666.
Great debate. Both held their positions well, both had great arguments, questions, and answers.
@1:23:42 Dr. Brown says, "we have been in the lasts DAYS for the last 2000 yrs. Does anyone recognize out there, that this is the "time" basis for the doctrine of futurism. That when God says the last hour, or the last days, or the "time is at hand" it can never mean what it says, it means something completely different. And the Dr. Brown says over and over "if words have any meaning" well what does the term "last days" mean in plain english if words mean what they say?
The Bible wasn't written in English, so pointing to a modern understanding of "last days", as it pertains to English, it's not a persuasive aspect
The New Testament written in the first century predicts a coming time "Wherein Righteousness Reigns, and where there will be NO more crying, NO more sorrow, NO more pain, and NO MORE DEATH."
We absolutely have not seen a time with no more crying, sorrow, pain or death
This absolutely MUST be future from us
So no Preterist, ALL prophecy has NOT yet been fulfilled.
Preston was actually very consistent with Scripture. Confusion comes when one decides to follow tradition. Old Covenant Israel is gone forever. The firstfruits remnant which included the apostles and the first century Christians are the foundation of the eternal, New Covenant body of Christ. Those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise.
well said :)
God is not done with the Nation of Israel. Those who think so - are misguided. Eg Amos 9:13-15.
Joel 3:1-3 & many other scriptures.
There are physical descendants of Abraham ( like the sands on the🌅 seashore) aka Jews & there are spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua/Jesus ( like the stars 🌟🌟in the skies) aka Christians.
God desires the physical descendants to obtain salvation & righteousness through repentance to Jesus in faith & by grace, and not through the law. He still has a remnant within Israel & the Church certainly does not replace the promises God made to physical Israel.
John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for ➡salvation is of the Jews.
Paul speaking to "Gentiles" here in Romans 11:19-21 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they ( the Jews) were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
Romans 11:23 And they ( ➡The Jewish ppl) also, if they ➡abide not still in unbelief, ➡shall be grafted in: for ((( God is able ))) ➡to graft them in 🌟again🌟.
What part of "👀again" do Preterists not understand ???
Tsunshine gal try romans chapter 9.6 but it is not though the WORD OF GOD has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descend from Israel. Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendents. But through Isaac your descendents will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God but the children of the promise are regarded as descendents. ......
Tsunshine gal All nations are blessed in Abraham's SEED and that SEED is Christ Jesus.
@@Tsunshinegal All the old prophesies were for the nation of Israel in covenant. They didn't keep it, and since they sat in the position of QUEEN (at the right hand of power, interceding between god and mankind) God divorced her. Hebrew assigns gender to all persons, places and things. The law forbid a man remarrying his divorced wife but he could marry a virgin from his own people. This wedding motif is about god being reconciled to mankind again, as was Adam in the beginning. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's presence (he had been communing 'face to face' with him.) Since we know that no man has ever seen god, this hebrew expression means 'without a 3rd party mediator.' Adam communed directly with his father. He became a prodigal son and god used 3rd party mediators/intecessors until the time of reconciliation. Paul taught reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:20-24. Only a few were allowed to speak 'face to face' with God until all the 3rd party mediators (who sat in the position as a Queen, at the right hand of power to her King) were destroyed forever. Anyone, anytime, anywhere can commune 'face to face' with their father now. No 3rd party mediators will ever be needed again after Jesus and his BRIDE (144,000 firstfruits) finished their mediation in the first century. Either Jesus fulfilled all he said he would or he was a false prophet. The 'last hour' that John said was upon them cannot be 2000 years later. The KJV rendered words according to established doctrines in the 16th century. The 'end' is the greek word 'telos.' It means 'goal/fulfillment.' The GOAL of all the previous ages was NEAR to them. 1 Pet 4:7. The old things were 'passing away.' Heb 8:13.
God does not show partiality. All Noah's sons had the same parents and ancestry. Jacob and Esau had the same parents and ancestry. One was not a 'Jew' and the other a 'gentile.' They were both 'gentiles.' Which means 'nations.' The Hebrew word 'goyim' should never have been rendered 'gentiles.' Jesus and 11 of his disciples were 'Galileean gentiles' according to the KJV. 'Galilee of the Gentiles.' It should be 'Galilee of the Nations.'
There was never any ethnic "Jew." One became a Jew by circumcision and observing the laws of Moses. The nation of Israel were a mixed multitude when they came out of Egypt. Anyone could attach themselves to a tribe and be part of Israel. The covenant with the nation of Israel ended 70 AD. They sat in positions as mediators inteceding for mankind (QUEEN at the right hand of her King). No need for mediators ever again.
The people calling themselves 'Jews' today are not a race of people. That term refers to a religious affiliation.
Esau's descendants became 'Jews' by conversion during the Hasmoneon Dynasty. King of Arabia, Izates, became a Jew as did many other people of another nationality, some to gain permission to marry a women they had fallen in love with.....
'Their is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus. One family with equal access to the father. It is finished! To say otherwise makes Jesus a liar and a false prophet. Religion has lied to us. Prove all things.
Just because we in this generation have not seen things written in the Bible with our naked eye, doesn't mean "That has not yet happened." Lets be faithful and interpret scripture with scripture and not just throw out random theories in the air. This is important to us as believers of Christ. We've been vague for too too long and Preterism states accuracy more that any view. Thank you Don for being so precise. Good debate
Dr. Brown brought this verse up several times:
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Romans 11:25 NASB
Speaking of Paul's statement "that a partial hardening has happened to Israel" isn't it true that "partial" here is adverbial and modifies "has happened," and not "hardening?"
If this is true, shouldn't it read something like, "A hardening has happened in part to Israel." Which is to say, the hardening isn't partial, rather, the hardening only happened to part of Israel. Which we know to be true seeing that the remnant, which included Peter, James, John, Matthew, Paul and every other Jewish convert in the 1st century, was not hardened.
I thought I would've clearly fallen on one side of the debate but now I've a lot of thinking and studying to do! Very well thought out debate and respectful tone throughout the entire time. James did a great job moderating. Both men spoke with knowledge and conviction and have raised some points that I'll have to study on.
Enjoyed it very much! Thanks guys!
Sheila C please write me at tanyuelvisshey@gmail.com for more clarification on Mr. Preston's position.
@@tanyuelvis Matthew 24 of which this argument is based off that preterist thinks supports them is the very same chapter that destroys it in three different places
@@garlandjones7709 can you mention the 3 different places?
@@tanyuelvis verses 32 and 33. The fig tree. First off that tree represents the knowledge of israel in relation to the messiah. He just cursed that three in Matthew 19 or 21... That tree isn't becoming tender until our current time. Most notably since the 1990s.
2nd, the KEY WORD SUMMER.... is related to the 7 feasts. Jesus fulfilled the first three, the 4th is halfway fullfilled. That's Pentecost, the wheat harvest. This is still going on now and is the gap between the 69th and 70th week. It's when the church began and also signifies it's end aka the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. This is wheat and tare parable. Jesus fulfilled all 4 of those ON their dates. That's established pattern. Then Pentecost fulfills w the rapture and then the 3 others will fulfill ON THEIR DATES. there's 10 days between all 3 of them, that's it. That's where the suddenness comes in.
Also, Titus temple destruction didn't destroy it all. His left the western wall that's still prayed at today, yesterday and will be tomorrow. 70ad account is luke 21 not Matthew 24. One wars of things b4, on3 of things after.
Also, preterism defends the coming of Jesus in the clouds in 66ad and temple destroyed in 70 for their 3 and a half years. PRoblem. Jesus says coming in the clouds happens AFTTER the tribulation of jews is over. Fyi, Matthew 24 and coming in clouds is not the rapture. This is him coming to split the mount of olives for armageddon.
Lastly, as for THIS GENERATION inverse 35 IS NOT TO THOSE LISTENING. Proof? Preterist saythis is proof he was talking about ad70 or he was a liar.
Matthew 12:39 and Matthew 15:4 is quite clear that the only sign THAT generation wad getting in Jerusalem was his crucifiction and resurrection. Matthew knew this too penning this gospel. So obviously he had to be speaking of a future. Not to mention that's pulled out of context of a parable of which there's. Clear separation from his prior dialogue.
The list on this is endless.... I can lay out 2nd coming proofs for HOURS. DANIEL 9:26 forward makes it clear there is a THIRD temple. The antichrist marks an end to sacrifice AFTER the 2nd temple is destroyed and it's in plain english. So Daniel 9 alone provides proof of a third
@@tanyuelvis I understand where preterist come from. I also understand how they make everything spiritual and that's great . Scripture is made that way. It has literal meaning, and allegorical but it always has physical fulfillment. It has allegorical or spiritual application in day to day life, all of it. And all scripture also points to something related to the messiah through pattern. All of it. But there is unwritten (kind of) law that the physical and spiritual realm parallel. They are inseparably linked and this goes all the way back to Genesis 1:1. This is preterist teachings or rather interpretating/hermeneutical flaw. Props to them for not taking everything literal and only literal, but you can't discard the literal either. Even when referring to figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, analogies, etc... you still have physical fulfilment and it's always precise, especially numbers. There are no ballparks, they're dead accurate.
Outside of this as I pointed out earlier, their entire argument for WHY tgeybhold this view is null and void, debunked garbage. And that's exactly what it is is false trash. It's a major deceptions and holding that view whether you're ignorant of its implications or not, is probably salvation dependant for a handful of reasons.
Are you familiar with 2 Peter 3:5-9?
@10:18 to Dr Brown. At not time has Paul ever called or referred to the saints of the church as a "Gentile Church:. This si the error of Dr Brown to assume that there is such as thing as a gentile church
Michael Brown argues that Israel has not yet heard "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" [Matt 23:39,] a statement Jesus quoted from Psalm 118:26. However, this author iimplies that it was common practice for local Jews to use those exact words to greet Jews from other nations to the Passover celebration. According to her, the last time the Jews made that statement was near the end of the Jewish-Roman War of 66-70 A.D.:
_"[T]he Jews considered this skirmish [with the Romans] a great triumph. Caesar as they called the son of Vespasian had been forced to fly! It was, in their eyes, the pledge and promise of their ultimate victory. Titus had not escaped unharmed; he was severely wounded."_
_"From the Far East, from Antioch and Egypt, Asia Minor and Cyprus, thousands of Jews, confiding in the inaction of Vespasian, had flocked to Jerusalem to celebrate this the last Passover. _*_For the last time worshippers approached the Temple gates singing the usual Psalms of Degrees; for the last time they were welcomed by the greeting, "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord!"_*_ and answered the priests' welcome with the words, "We have wished you good luck ye who are of the House of the Lord!" [Elizabeth Wormeley Latimer, "Judea from Cyrus to Titus 537 BC-70 AD." A. C. McClurg & Co., 1899, p.345]_
Dan
1:16 Don knocks it out the part. Yeshua says there is no Kingom that we will take up the sword. When the Kingdom comes, it wont be won by legions... you wont go out and say ahhhhhh it's over here... because the kingom is in you. Its soooooo profound in its description.
Mr. Preston was / had the most consistent hermanuetic in my opinion.
I thought Dr. Brown had the most consistent, in my opinion.
Can I have an opinion?
@@PeteJab we all do!
Until I had watched the first hour of this debate I never thought my brothers and sisters in Christ could be interpreting scripture so incorrectly as Preston does. I can not understand how a person can be so blinded by the Word of God. This is truly very saddening for me.
@@thomasfholland
I'm concerned also. He overspiritualized almost every topic to draw his conclusions.
Where does that stop?
Israel did receive her salvation through judgment. The remnant was saved during the transition period, AD 30-AD 70, and the harlot was judged for breaking her covenant with God as prophesied.
The first century AD remnant of Israel is the foundation of the body of Christ, the church, true Israel. There is neither Jew or Gentile. The wall has been broken down. There is no other way to the Father but by the Son.
promisesrkept very interesting interpretation(s); are they your own, or product of others "works" (i.e. writings, videos, speeches, etc.,)?? I'm curious to your sources.
+al karg My view is derived from Scripture. I began researching the preterist view about 10-12 years ago. I read three books that opened my eyes and led to much study: The Parousia, The Last Days According to Jesus, and The Apocalypse Code. I began applying the principle of Audience Relevance and I discovered the many Time Statements throughout the New Testament. I found the promises to Old Covenant Israel fulfilled in Jesus and His body, the New Testament church made up of Jew and Gentile.
+promisesrkept I'm always encouraged when I hear of others who through their own personal study came to the conclusion of Fulfilled Promises.
Same story here. At first, I searched to find someone who was seeing the same things I saw. Thank God for the internet. I was a FP before I even knew it was called that.
Now, I can't help but warn those who were brought up, and are still blinded, in the Futurist Fantasy. Right Understanding means Real Life for those of us on planet earth!
al karg that’s all in the Bible
Ecclesiastes 1:4, “One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the EARTH ABIDES FOREVER.
The Hebrew actually means “long duration”, not “forever” as the English translations have it.
Bravo! I really enjoyed this exchange. I've watched it twice now.
The most important idea that came forward - THE PIVOTAL POINT - is Dr Preston's question regarding hermeneutics: By what authority do we ignore Jesus' and the inspired NT writer's interpretation of OT prophecy?
This question is a huge key to our understanding. ( You can hear this question starting at 1:19:58, and a fuller discussion at 51:51)
Sadly, Dr Brown's responses to this question are disappointing and not Scripturally grounded.
In agreement with Dr Preston's question, I would emphasize Paul's revelation of The Mystery of God. Paul clearly and repeatedly makes the point that God's Eternal Plan was purposely hidden - obscured - in the OT. Paul describes that God cloaked His Plan in a Mystery in order to hide it from the rulers of that age, "... for had the powers of this age known this, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory." 1Corinthians 2:5-10.
Paul stunningly says if we do not understand this (previously hidden) Wisdom of God's Eternal Plan, then WE DON'T HAVE THE WHOLE MESSAGE!! (Colossians 1:25)
According to Paul, if we are ignorant or in denial of "this Mystery which has been hidden from ages and generations", then WE ARE NOT MATURE, and WE ARE NOT ESTABLISHED! (Colossians 1:28, Romans 16:25)
This is exciting stuff! Paul alerts us to the fact that God had hidden "the fullness of His Word", so we should be looking for this. The NT writers show us WHERE this information had been hidden. Through their Holy Spirit inspired interpretation and applications, the NT writers show us WHERE IN THE OT PROPHECIES GOD HAD HIDDEN THIS WISDOM.
So the question stands: By what authority do we ignore the NT writer's interpretations?
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this. This is a question all of us must wrestle with.
+Sonrise Highway
Thank you! Christian zionists will do anything to avoid Peter's directive that the *New Testament is the Inspired, Authoritative, Interpretation of the prophets!* 1Peter 1:10-12
Bibles weren't printed for the public until the 16th century after the invention of the printing press. It took at least a year to hand copy one and religious authorities had control of it. Paul warned about the truth being corrupted before his martyrdom by those who wanted to maintain their authority over people. The gospel is about reconciliation. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's presence. Jesus came to restore what Adam lost and gifted mankind with. All 3rd party mediators were destroyed with the temple cultus, 70 AD. They sat as a QUEEN at the right hand of power as mediators between the two alienated parties. It is finished! be reconicled to your father! 2 Cor 5:20-24. Those who have been reconciled to their father have him to be their TEACHER> Matt 23:8-10.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
@Daniel Deng And what changed in YOUR life in 70AD?
Dr Brown also assumes that when Paul speak of the gentiles, he is referring to the saved gentile christians, However, the term gentile refers to the unsaved gentiles that has not yet turned to Christ. Once a gentile turns to Christ and is saved, he is no longer referred as a gentile but a saint, a child of G-d. a people or person now included as a national ethnic Israel as indicated in exodus and Leviticus. In exodus and leviticus, it clearly stated that any gentile once becoming a Jew is no longer regarded as a gentile but included among the jews as a naturally born Jew. This is to say, for Paul to refer to the saved Christians as gentiles would be contrary to scripture. How is it that Dr Brown would not understand that? @9:21
Amazing debate, brothers, use of technology. Thank u so much
Jesus prophesied the time of the end of the age would be within the disciple's generation (Mt. 24:3, 34). The writer of Hebrews indicated end the Old Covenant was imminent (Heb. 8:13). Hebrews was written well after AD34, therefore the end did not come then. The Mosaic age ended when God came in judgment of the harlot in AD70.
The fair question to Dr Brown is: What was the eschatological significance of 70AD?
The preterist view totally changes how you read the bible. That is why a lot of people can't understand Hebrews, Thessalonians etc. They start to make sense.
@@joyfulpreterist7532 amen. It’s the key that unlocks the understanding of how all scripture connects together. Every other system engages in coming up with different theories to try and connect scripture together which rises questions that require more theories to answer the questions. But with preterism everything can be explained from scripture without all different theories read INTO scripture. If Occam’s razor applied to hermeneutics preterism wins by a long shot.
@@therealjakedean3317 Look up "Eschatology by Samuel Lee" over on Bit *censored* Chute - can't put those words together or youtube will censor it... it's an amazing book from the 1800's by one of the most prestigious scholars of language and a great mind of Biblical prophesy.
@@JohnDoe-le8fy
I may have a pdf of that book in my archives. Are you the same person who has the UA-cam account @Johnny Doe?
@@JohnDoe-le8fy whoever owns the UA-cam account @Johnny Doe I have no interest in communicating with them provided the complete inability to engage in cordial discussion or abide by basic rules of communication (propositional logic)
All those prophecies were fulfilled in Christ
Caesar Arevalo...no they haven't, Brown is spot on, Preston is pushing cultish doctrine( Im saying this based on other teachings Ive heard) using lots of verses like word salad to try and back himself.
It just takes careful listening to spot his errors which lead to a false gospel and twisted theology that somehow Daniels prophecy in chapter 7:13 describes the ascension of Christ for example.
Preston delusion has Jesus already returned! beware Satans lies, wrapped in bible verses.
@@MRFITTA Do not make ignorant assumptions of what you know little about.
@@Ajsirb24...like I said, Preston's delusion has Christ already returned, and everything else in my comment.
If you dont recognise cultish teaching then you best sit yourself down and keep quiet.
@@MRFITTA Read the verse in context and interpret scripture using scripture.
As the visions during the night continued, I saw coming with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man. When he reached the Ancient of Days and was presented before him, He received dominion, splendor, and kingship; all nations, peoples and tongues will serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed.
- Daniel 7:13-14
There is no other biblical way to interpret this then to say that Christ ascended into heaven to "receive all authority", sitting on a "throne at God's right hand." Careful exegesis proves this clearly. Yet, you provide no evidence to disprove any of Preston's arguments. I implore you to be wiser and more thoughtful.
@@Ajsirb24 Daniel's vision is the return of the Son of Man, he ascended and will return to fulfill Daniel's prophecy.
Preston is saying the complete opposite...and if you are in agreement with him, we have a big problem.
Cults and false teachers are multiplying in these last days; it's our job as diligent followers of Christ to expose them and warn others.
This is a great discussion! I'd just like to add my (BIG) two-cents: "I am the way,the truth, and the life...no one comes to the Father but by me".Simple really.
+mikesglider - God bless you. I just want to add that Muslim Dr Nair is falsely teaching that it is true Jesus said that and he is right is right in saying that but it is NOT unique because all the other prophets in their time including his prophet Muhammad was (was because he is dead but Jesus is forever alive) the way, the truth and the life blah, blah. It is blasphemous and coming from the mouth of the Devil.
Don won. I respect both men, however Don's arguments are the most sound.
I think I have to watch this debate again, maybe two more times.
Preterism seems more consistent
I agree It seems pretty easy and linear in the sense of an spiritual fullfilment. The problem that I have with this full preterism (and I have no problem with partial pret) is that it exhausts the prophecy in some sort of metaphorical reality as if God didn't leave any promise embeded in the new covenant for the future regarding to the physical world which has been impacted by sin from its beginning. And that raises many questions about the fact that if God vindicates his Name in the New Covenant as Ezekiel says then we have to understand that His name is imprinted in his creation as well. Then we need to think: why is this creation to stay corrupt forever as if corruption were everlasting as God? Isn't creation called good in the beginning? Why not to manifest the New Covenant for what was given to the man as well since it was for his good that was created? Is this position denying the goodness of matter? Is it implying that spirit is good and flesh is bad therefore not to be transform to its original state? If so, that pretty much sounds like gnosticism. I am very concerned about this because it feels like the resurrection is something in the mind or some kind of mental state based on the gospel and God is giving his creation to the fallen state system for a neverending test on christians who live and die to turn into spirits. Sounds not so good. When is the victory over death manifested for the vindication of truth. Just wondering, you know.
Romans 12:2
If it was so, there would be no COVID
Agree. Mr. Brown helped me a great deal but Mr. Don Preston furnished everything for me.
@Joseph Goudreau seems that way, because IT IS! 😉
"Been there, done that!"-Jesus
It makes zero sense for God to claim fullfilling prophesies within 70 weeks and then after the 69th, it gets postponed for 2000 years. GOH.
First thing I noticed with Dr Brown is his notion that ALL kindred, tongue and nations have not heard the gospel preached. Did ALL the people living 200 yrs ago hear the word of God preached? I don't think so, so it goes against what the scripture was saying. Yes, in that time as Paul proclaimed that the Gospel of Jesus was preached to everyone. Amen.....
People would have to be reincarnated if they missed out on hearing the Gospel being preached and we know that's not biblical.
Also, in Rev 18 (i believe) when it's talking about Babylon who is Jerusalem (the place where Jesus was crucified) scripture says that the light of the candle will shine in you no more, nor will they hear the voice of the bridegroom and the bride in you. So please tell me how does current Jerusalem expect that Jesus will come back to physical Jerusalem when scripture says it will NEVER happen?
Christ's enemies were destroyed in the first century. Is 66:6. They resided in POSITIONS of power in the temple cultus. The QUEEN was divorced, stripped of her royal robes and authority and burnt in the fire (70 AD) as required by law for a harlot. The nation of Israel were to be priests and be second in command, mediating between two alienated parties. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's PRESENCE. Jesus came to restore what was lost and the old mediators and temple cultus had to go. The wedding motif is about god being reconciled to mankind again. The BRIDE, his new QUEEN, was the 144,000 firstfruits of the fall harvest. We have been reconciled to our father, therefore, no 3rd party mediators will ever be needed again. It is finished!
1:43:03 Dr Preston says '70 weeks were determined to put away sin...Daniel clearly shows Christ was to be cut off in the middle of that 70th week, that puts his death in April 25, AD31. And the "end" of the "week" was in autumn AD34. NOT AD 70 as Dr Preston says 1:43:46-1:43:55. It is this clumsy nailing down of the "end" that many of us, including myself, get confused with when not careful.
Just a tidbit of info for every one to consider in their studies.
OH! and by the by the bye. Ive heard Don debating for 20 years , He is the master debator.
+Brent Fleming
He is a living example of the results of disobedient believers, NOT admonishing him twice and then, fully, completely cutting him off and declaring him outside the body of Christ.
I believe Mr. Preston presented his view with more examples and facts.
he talked twice as fast
Be a berean. It's not hard at ALL to annhialate this whole theology. I wrote 8 entire pages on this in an hour on Friday and it's most likely going to be 20 by tomorrow. The largest, easiest rebuke I've come across. Jehovas witnesses are harder to tackle than this. I highly encourage reading ALL of scripture and not just gospels and Paul's epistles.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
@@garlandjones7709 link?
@@DJ5780 brother that was literal. It was on paper. Not typed or saved or published as an article. I can however discuss it If you'd like.
dear dr brown, am i understanding correctly when you say that the church/ gentile church is not the "spiritual israel" to where no distinction was made as to whether one was circumcised (jew) or uncircumcised (gentile) and between the physical nation of israel, through which the Seed of promise was to come through abraham (gal 3:15- 18)? to my understanding of the scriptures, the distinction (between physical israel, jews only and spiritual israel, made up of both jews and gentiles baptised in Christ forming the body of the church) is that the law was given to physical israel (deut 5: 1- 4) alone, and it was that which separated jew from gentile (eph 2: 14- 16, gal 3: 26- 29), the middle wall of separation (the law) which is broken down in the body [church] (eph 5: 23) of Christ making one new man from the two, making peace. your comments would be sincerely appreciated. take care and God bless.
Brown errs in his assumption that “the times of the gentiles” is referring to gentiles being saved. But “the times of the gentiles” is referring to the tribulation, which took place from A.D. 66 - A.D. 70. It was a 3 1/2 year period (aka 1290 days) where the Romans began to overtake Jerusalem, leading up to the destruction of the temple.
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
Luke 21:24
The already-not-yet only lasted 40 years in the first century.
Most helpful and enjoyable debate. This is a rare exception when I'm not in complete agreement with D.M.B. Cannot agree with Dr. Preston's full preterist position but completely agree with him as far as the question of the debate is concerned. Loved his points on the Apostles giving divine interpretation of Old Testament prophets of which not even the prophets themselves knew the "time" or the "manner" of the fulfillments, also the divorce and remarriage of Judah and Israel are rarely discussed and Dr Preston did a great job bringing it out in the debate.
Could never figure out where Dr Brown was on the Kingdom being present today and Jesus reigning over it from the throne of David at the fathers right hand. Seemed to take a mixed position saying it had kicked in but not to fruition or something of that nature. Was suprised to hear him acknowledge the 70 weeks of Daniel run consecutively, he's the first premil. I've ever heard say it.
Thanks Dr Brown for putting on and posting the debate it will prompt me to search the word deeper . Love all you do and it's an encouragement to many.
Well done gentlemen!
yes, I thought they had a very good and godly debate.. true gentlemen
Dr. Michael you are absolutely right concerning the Church not ‘replacing Israel’.
Having said that I’m not sure concerning your teaching as to the fullness of the Gentiles has comes in.
Within the context Gentiles are Christians as contrasted with Jews.’
However, Christians are, in fact, people, from all nations, who have been ‘born-again’, Tit 3:5 [original], “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he delivered us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of a Spirit Holy:” 1Pe 1:23, “Born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible.”
Because of Adam’s eating of the forbidden fruit our spirits have become ‘contaminated’. At rebirth one is ‘regenerated’, born again, and one’s spirit is ‘renewed’ the receiving of the Spirit of Christ being a member of his body, 1Co 12:12-, “For just as the body is one and has many parts, but all the parts of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and we were all given to drink into one Spirit.”
There are therefore three groups: Jews, Christians and Gentiles. Christians are ‘raptured’ after the great tribulation and the preaching of the Good News to all nations.
The Jews who have read and understood, Mat 24:15-, “Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee upon the mountains,” would be kept safe during the time of the great tribulation.
Those who did not flee will therefore together with the Gentiles be subjected to the wrath of the God that follows the rapture, Rev 15 and 16.
Those who have ‘fled’ can start counting, Dan 12:11-, “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the desolating abomination set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days shall occur. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.”
As for Dr. Don he errs in that he does not distinguish between the kingdom of the God and the kingdom of Jesus, Both God the Father and Jesus are Jehovahs. A Jehovah is ‘self-existing’ and a giver of life, 1Co 15:-28-, “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that the God may be all in all… :45, And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.”
Jesus’ mission was to preach the kingdom of the God, not his own kingdom, Mar 1:14-, “And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of the God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of the God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.’”
The question begging an answer who are ‘them’ , ‘us’ and the gospel Peter was preaching 1Pe 1:12-, “To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you by a holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”
Dr. Don should have considered reading from verse 1 and kept to the Greek text because translators, at times, omit the definite article, guarding the ‘Trinity’ dogma.
As for 1Pet 2:9-, “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into the marvellous light of Him; who formerly were not a people but now are the people of a God, who had not received mercy, but now have received mercy.” If words have meaning who is Peter addressing?
Do note Acts 2:16 Peter did not say, “This is the fulfilment which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” He said, “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” The 120 upon whom the Holy Spirit came were born-again; their sins were forgiven. Joel was referring to the time when the Jewish nation’s sins will be forgiven when the Feast of Atonement is fulfilled after the time of the Gentiles has come in.
As for Mat 23:39, “For I say to you, ‘You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord,"’” was fulfilled, Joh 12:12 On the next day, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, a great crowd who had come to the Feast took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him. And they cried, Hosanna! "Blessed is the King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord!"
Concerning Daniel 9, I believe both Dr. Don and Dr. Michael have it wrong. Do read my understanding on my blog @ www.myhand.co.za/2011/12/06/daniel-dan-9-24-seventy-sevens-are-appointed/.
Concerning who Jesus is, also read the article 'Was Jesus a Jew at birth? who fathered Jesus?' @ www.myhand.co.za/2015/12/02/was-jesus-a-jew-at-birth-who-fathered-jesus/
Preterism and historicism are a lot more consistent than futurism.
I am curious what Dr Brown would say about Paul stating that there is no more Jew or gentile but we are all one in Christ therefore affirming the consummation of all things. Fulfilled fulfilled fulfilled thank you for the great debate. Much to think about from both sides.
Scripture. Israel had become spiritually Sodom & Egypt. She was also the harlot facing imminent judgment in Revelation. John called her mystery Babylon. The 144,000 were firstfruits which could only have existed in the first century AD. Paul & James referred to themselves and their contemporaries as firstfruits (Rom. 8:23; James 1:18)
too much focus on ethnic Israel. Spiritual Israel is the key, just as folks shouldn't fall for the emphasis/focus on ethnic/natural/physical/worldly Jerusalem, but cast their attentions on Yeshua and the HEAVENLY Jerusalem that John speaks of in his gospels (esp Revelation). Can the two (natural & physical) become one? Of course....but that is a God thing, not a man thing, to become a reality. H>S> needs to reveal this to all of us in all its splendor.
Dr. Brown's analogy "Only God can scatter, only God can gather....How is Israel Gathered..how did it happen? Was it just statehood, Political craftsmanship?"
Answer: Yes! While God is sovereign over all things, not all things are a "fulfillment of God's promises!" God promised Sarah she would have a baby even though she was past child bearing age (Gen 18:10), God is sovereign, even over a woman's womb (1 Sam 1:5), yet, in her impatience with God fulfilling his promise, Sarah had Abraham go into Hegar the maidservant and Hegar had a child (Ishmael). So, if Dr. Brown were there when Ishamel were born, would he say "Oh look, God made a promise that Sarah and Abraham would have a baby, we know that only God can bring about a child, therefore, this must be the child of promise!" We know hat Ishmael was NOT the child of promise and I hope Dr. Brown would agree! God said to Abraham, "Take Isaac your ONLY son....."
In the same way, While the current "Nation of Israel" was inline with God's sovereignty, it is still an "Earthly" Israel and NOT the Israel of promise! The ONLY people that God himself considers "True Israel" are those who are of the FAITH of Abraham (Jew AND Gentile) and NOT of the "Flesh" of Abraham! Paul makes this point extremely clear and uses this exact same analogy in Romans 9 (also see Galatians 3 (and other scriptures). And how does one become "True Israel?" By believing the GOSPEL!!!! "The Jerusalem below is in BONDAGE, but the Jerusalem above (Mount Zion/Hebrews 12) is FREE and SHE is the mother of US ALL!"
This does not negate the fact that there may still be a "remnant" of Earthly Israel that will come into the faith, BUT they will be grafted BACK into the "Israel Tree" whose foundation is the Apostles/Prophets (Jews) and in who Gentiles have been grafted into for the last 2000 years! There is only ONE Israel tree! No the church has not "replaced" Israel, the Church was grafted INTO Israel and therefore IS Israel! True, Believing Israel who are of the faith of their father Abraham (Jew AND Gentile!).
How about you check out : Operation Ali Baba, Operation Magic Carpet, Operation King Solomon to begin with... 😊
Dr Brown holds a Ph.D in Near Eastern Languages and Literature and yet he doesn’t understand the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles and Paul.
All the confusion here could be eliminated if they just understand that ashkenazi jews aren't the jews of the scripture. Those people as a nation are long gone.
YES!!
When they tell me Jesus can’t be my savior
This is my favorite part right here 😇
It is due to God one stop sinning not because of one self.
Job 33:22-29.
They draw near to the pit,
and their life to the messengers of death.
23 Yet if there is an angel at their side,
a messenger, one out of a thousand,
sent to tell them how to be upright,
24 and he is gracious to that person and says to God,
‘Spare them from going down to the pit;
I have found a ransom for them-
25 let their flesh be renewed like a child’s;
let them be restored as in the days of their youth’-
26 then that person can pray to God and find favor with him,
they will see God’s face and shout for joy;
he will restore them to full well-being.
27 And they will go to others and say,
‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right,
but I did not get what I deserved.
28 God has delivered me from going down to the pit,
and I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’
29 “God does all these things to a person-
twice, even three times-
30 to turn them back from the pit,
that the light of life may shine on them.
Jesus ends sin by setting an example to live by if we take on the character of Christ sin dies that’s why through each individual is this accomplished, sin is swallowed up death is no more.
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
In old Jewish tradition that’s how they saved people by setting an example to live by, but we know Jesus was chosen and predestined to do more then set an example for us to live by. But the ultimate goal was to create a new creation out of us.
The message is clear if God sends somebody to teach you how to be upright and stop sinning it’s because of him, if he sends you visions and dreams and you turn away from sin, it is because of him.
Romans 10:16-18 Colossians 1:23 the Gospel was preached to all ❤️💯
Michael brown seems to think that babies will be born and den with cobras, that lions wont care that lambs are meat and wont try to eat them. Until then he thinks that Yeshua hasn't come.
***** Yeah I totally agree, I was actually laughing about the slip of the tongue Michael Brown made near the end of his first rebuttal where he accidentally said in the new millennium that the lion will eat the ox like the straw, instead of the lion will eat straw like the ox. I thought it was just humorous thats all. I actually believe whole heartily Michael Browns view on the millennium and thought he did a really good job and enjoyed the debate over all. Both presenters obviously thought long and hard about their positions and James White did a good job moderating the debate. Personally I look forward to more debates from these guys. I especially enjoyed Michael Browns debates with James white on calvinism and arminianism and found them also to be quite educational as well.
Had no idea these 2 debated. 2 of the best most interesting Christian minds
Fascinating stuff. Dr. Preston has some persuasive arguments but because he knows his own stuff so well he speaks too fast and goes off on too many tangents for the neutral listener to coherently process his arguments adequately. Also because his whole view of covenant eschatology is so far removed from what most people know and have believed all their lives it makes it incredibly difficult to get a grasp on his hermeneutical viewpoint which then, in the end, renders his arguments just too obscure for the layman.
The Canberean ...I agree...great comment
I don't consider myself to be a stupid person, and my own thinking appears to line up more with Dr. Preston. But my eyes glazed over listening to him. You're right; he speaks very fast and jumps from reference to reference and topic to topic so quickly and continuously that I just find myself all worn out. Better for me to read a book, I think.
That's because most people do not study the bible but accept whatever they are taught by those they trust. They do not search the scriptures to see if those things they are taught are so. Acts 17:11.
Therefore, take notes...listen to his points over and over compare it with scripture he uses and then be honest with yourself.
@@dionsanchez4478 I have tried. Many times. I've tried reading a few of his books too. Just way too convoluted and messy. All over the place. He needs a good editor.
Dr Brown clearly and rightfully divided the Holy Teachings; whereas, Dr Preston believed he did but did not.
I appreciate these debates and both parties for debating, not arguing in a way that pushes people away from the LIGHT, our Yehovah Yeshua. Thank you
Preston's accent is a hilarious. He sounds like a southern preacher from the 1920s.
+Garegin Asatryan
I'm glad you gathered that...while what you said is true :D it would be nice if you commented on something about the truth that he has said.
Don K Preston is awesome!! Every time I listen to him, I draw closer to God
a transcript of this debate would be AWESOME
How can anyone believe this has already occurred?:
1 Corinthians 15:42-55
[42]So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43]It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47]The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Having read some of the 'heated' comments here I have to say that I wish we Christians were as gracious with each other's opinions as we are with those who do not believe. I think an exercise in good manners would raise the standard here on UA-cam. I always try to disagree in an agreeable way - otherwise there is more heat than light.
Thanks to Don K Preston, I'm a full preterist today. Like e everyone else we were taught a one sided version of the gospels.
This whole mix up was further confused with false John Darby theory .
Thank you guys for a mature debate. In all Jesus Christ must be lord of our lives.
Great job Don
Brilliant! This was a debate that edified the body of Christ.Two VERY sincere Men who are of the same "spirit" with different views concerning what the "end of the world, the last days, the coming of the LORD, the resurrection of the dead, the kingdom of God,the kingdom of heaven .The BIG issues that have been unclear to many believers for over two thousand years. I am familiar with both sides of this debate.I see the core of this debate to be mans expectations, either of a physical kingdom or a spiritual kingdom.A Physical Resurrection from a dead carnal body to a new eternal carnal body.or being born again by a new spiritual birth from an already (spiritually dead in trespasses and sin carnal body )into a spiritual Body that Paul calls the BODY of CHRIST,ONE spiritual Body of which Christ is the head? Which is it? Dr Brownseems to be concerned with what He sees as an Earthly Nation of Israel
Paul says the Body of Christ IS seated in heavenly places. Ephesians chapter 2 :1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 1st Corinthians 15 :44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. LUKE 17 :20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the wordes that I speake vnto you, they are Spirit, and they are life. (old KJV) Now to sum this up,
I Just watched two very well educated men wade into very deep water. One saw things in a more "spiritual" way than the other. and I LOVED everything Both said and the way they both "reasoned" At the end this verse came to mind 1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called Notice He didn't say not any, but not many.I just watched two very well University educated Bible teachers.
You will not see me again "UNTIL" you say " Blessed is He who comes in the name of The Lord"... * Jesus Christ *
Q: Whom was Jesus Christ saying these words to ?
To the Jews or to Gentiles ???
Great job Brown! As always... a class act.
The church didn’t replace the nation Israel, Christ did.
Jesus said...“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. Matthew 21 The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers
33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will [a]render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they [b]perceived that He was speaking of them.
Hi, I have known it, but now I feel good about it. Some few Dr's of divininty believe Daniel's 70 weeks was fulfilled or at least terminated no later than year AD70. I realize now, for sure, it ended in year AD34. I just want to share this info with my Christian colleges.
Excellent presentation Don Preston, you won this debate.
He did not
@@artemusbowdler7508 yes he did
@@AlpacaLipps No, he did not.
Dr Brown's interpretation of the "full inclusion" means the total number of all Israel. However, the term "full inclusion" means the total salvation of the remnant. the "full" is in reference to the "full salvation" not the "full number of people". @8:49
Dr Michael Brown I love your channel thank you for this channel.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
Michael Brown asked on his radio program how one can associate the term "heaven and earth" with God's covenants with Israel.
Moses, speaking to Israel:
“Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. (Deuteronomy 32:1 NKJV)
Isaiah, referring to Israel:
"But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared- The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ” (Isaiah 51:15, 16 NKJV)
John, seeing old Israel pass away and the arrival of the new Israel:
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:1, 2 NKJV)
Love the debate..thanks
I really enjoyed this debate. I've seen Don Debate several people over the years and I thought Dr. Brown represented his position as effectively as anyone I've seen debate Don. The challenge that Don has is to illustrate complex biblical literature to the level of the average layman. He's at a disadvantage because Dr. Brown appeals to the "plain" language hermeneutic which is much easier to win debate points on. However as James White pointed out more than once this debate really boiled down to language hermeneutics. Dr. Brown likes to present a literal reading of Isaiah 11 concerning the animals lying down together as a picture of a physical change in dynamics that are prophesied to happen. That makes sense if that "plain" language was the intent of the author. Many a trusted scholar will tell you that is "metaphorical" language denoting at the time of Messiah that the domesticated clean animals representing God's people Israel will come together in piece with Gods unclean wild animals representing Gentiles. That indeed occurred through Christ and thus the prophecy was fulfilled and has been for nearly 2000 years. If one understood this Jewish literature from this perspective then it would be noticed that Dr. Brown's challenge to Don was built upon a false premise which would have taken Don off course if he had attempted to confront every single example that Dr. Brown threw at him. That's why Don had the bigger challenge because you have to teach at the level of your audience and I doubt that most have the literature training in which they could perceive Dr. Browns overly simple challenge to Don.
However again I really appreciated the decorum and scholarship that this debate presented.
Norman Voss I believe if Don was H>S> inspired/lead, he could do so, quite easily. Excuses won't fly (long) in the Kingdom. Nothing personal. My 2 cents.
al karg I believe you err here.
Jesus had to establish a few facts for his disciples to understand that John the Baptist was Elijah and Jesus said they may have to use their brains as it didn't leap out to them at first.
RIiiight. ;-)
@@kargs5krun LOL. So the Holy Spirit is gonna dumb down his revelation? The wise shall understand having the acceptance like children.
Still following preterism?
As a former dispensational futurist I find the fact that I once held the views of doctor brown extremely embarrassing
Tell me about it. It is my contention one is a dispy until they actual begin to think about it rather than regurgitate its rhetoric.
It’s funny that Dr. Brown swears he’s not a dispensationalist. The only person he’s fooling is himself 😂
Michael Brown isn't a dispensationalist, though he is a futurist. theofaith.org/2020/01/21/dr-michael-browns-problems-with-dispensationalism/
I just don't understand how dr. Brown can't see what down Preston is trying to say here it's so clear and precise and dr. Brown is a smart man so I don't see why he is struggling with this so much
I am disappointed to see how such a well accomplished guy like Mr. Brown ignores the symbology behind the Bible. Hence, caught up like many great leaders on an eschatology that keeps them waiting on literal event that were never intended to be so. PRESTON is a gift to Cristianty and to humanity
@@anthrolinguistica no, he's pushing a cultish worldview, one of those false teachers we're warned about.
Prestons word salad can't fool anyone who reads the bible and is Spirit filled
This was a decisive victory for the Dr Preston! The promises to Old covenant had to be fulfilled to usher in the new covenant!
Has anyone ever noticed that Dr Brown looks like the face on the Turin Shroud?
yes I have noticed that, Jesus looked similar to a sephardic or ashkenazi jew... I laugh when people say ashkenazi jews are not indigenous to the holy land (ie. middle east/Israel) lmao
Unfortunately, for people that don't yet understand the Biblical teaching of Covenant Eschatology, which is the angle Don Preston is coming from, and might I add, is the correct hermeneutic, a debate like this that is only supposed to focus on one topic is not sufficient to change the mind of a futurist. To fully grasp Preston's argument requires a fundamental shift in hermeneutics because Covenant eschatology affects our belief about much more than how we view modern Israel.
I was a staunch futurist, and very knowledgeable of current and traditional views about the second coming until I came across Preston and others that teach Covenant eschatology and I just could not hold on to a belief that was soundly refuted by an explanation of the true meaning of end times texts. I can't tell you how much more scripture became clear. To my brothers and sisters in Christ that support Dr. Brown, I encourage you to do some deep study of the Bible and read Preston's work before you go on defending error.
Also, to anyone bold enough to accuse Preston of teaching heresy, I would be very careful with your words because God will hold you accountable. What I find interesting is that instead of us being close to the end of the world, I think we're at the beginning of another reformation. And, in the same way the Catholic hierarchy resisted Luther, so too will Covenant Eschatology meet with great resistance by the hierarchy of today.
There is no way you are going to convince me that God is done with the Nation of Israel.
Perhaps you ought to study the history of the Wars that Israel had to fight in order to survive.
➡1948: War of Independence. So many Muslims fought ( 6-7 Countries) against the Jews, yet no where in War History has the tables be turned around.. ( except the 300 men with Gideon) lol
➡1956 : Sinai Campaign
➡ 1967 : 6 day War
➡ 1973 : Yom Kippur War
➡ 1982 : Lebanese Invasion
➡ 1991 : Gulf War
➡ 2000 onwards : Suicide bombers
➡ 2006 : Operation Cast Lead with Hizbollah
➡ 2012 : Operation Pillar of Defense
➡ 2014 : Operation Protective Edge
God stands with the Nation of Israel. He fights for their survival & birth into the world. A Nation birthed in a day - who has ever heard ??
He who scatters Israel will gather the children of Israel back to the land of their forefathers. NEVER to be plucked out again !
Michael Brown must've had Galatians removed from his version of the Bible. Now I wonder who Ishmael was????....and who was Isaac???
Complete presuppositional tripe. The very thing you accuse preterists of is the very thing futurists like Brown do. They must of necessity step outside scriptures to support their view.
BTW answering from a Jewish perspective with a PhD means absolutely nothing. He is a Jew in name only and has no connection whatsoever to the Jews of the first century.
Throwing scriptures out without exegesis is without substance.
+Ted Pearce Yet more presuppositional nonsense about Preterists. Good grief man get yourself educated about something before you criticise it or those who follow it. It only makes you look foolish.
+Ted Pearce
Oh, and arrogant.
+Ted Pearce
Lamentable.
one of the most respectful debates I've listened to... It would be interested to see these to debate after Dr. Brown's had some time to read Preston's writings... That being said, does anyone know what Dr. Browns position is? I've heard him say that he's not a dispensationalist, but he does seem to take a fairly "literal" approach to OT prophecy... would he identify with Progressive Dispensationalism? Does he see Christ as seated on David's throne right now?
I love Don's ability to explain the Preterist viewpoint. Especially Becouse I've come to believe it is the correct viewpoint even after being taught my whole life the premillenial futurest viewpoint. I believe this information is a gamechanger in terms of Kingdom understanding and living!!!!!!
God promised to Abraham:
1. Will make him great nation, bless him and make his name great.
2. Will give the promised land (land of Israel) to his seed.
3. In him, alla families of the earth will be blessed.
God is faithful. Who are we to say that the promise are no longer valid?
Sindak Situmorang, 1. He did make him a great nation, 2. He did give Israel the promised land under Joshua. 3. Anyone who wants can be blessed in Christ.
Nothing is left in terms of promises...
Dr. Brown did not know what he signed up for. I doubt he will do this again.
Brown is a desperate bitter angry man of the flesh! I have my doubt if he's even saved
Dr Brown stayed with the text (Romans 11). Dr Preston did not.
Thank you Dr. Preston for clarifying Dr. Brown's error in stating "If words have any meaning..." Yes, words do have meaning, but we have to properly discern exactly what is being communicated BY the words! Paul and Jesus do exactly what Dispensationalists say we shouldn't do, they "reinterpret" (Allegedly) the O.T. meanings by "Spiritualizing" the text! What they are actuallaly doing is clarifying what God himself intended to communicate, which is the TRUE, ultimate, Heavenly fulfillment of Prophecy as opposed to the proximate, earthly fulfillment, BOTH Literal! Read the principal set forth by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we [fn] bear the image of the heavenly man.
No the spiritual came first....better start in Genesis...brother this is heresy.
I did enjoy the debate. However, Dr. Don Preston's presentation did not provide the same thorough review of the pertinent chapters leading up to the subject text of Romans 11:25-27. In addition, what he said he "demonstrated" wasn't really true. He claimed that he demonstrated but fell way short. Further, I do believe that the writing of the book of Revelation precedes the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. However, I do not agree with the full preterist view (although some will consider this the only consistent approach). I would like to see Dr. Brown debate someone more balanced in there preteristic perspectives that could carefully exegete the subject text instead of confusing matters with too many short references that cannot be covered in context in such a short debate...Dr. Kenneth Gentry comes to mind for a fantastic brotherly opponent. Also, I greatly appreciate that Dr. Brown acknowledges that not all preterists (partial or otherwise) have an anti-Semitic bend. I have lead many Jews to faith in Yeshua and have a heart to see those descendant by birth from Abraham saved. I felt as if both men handled themselves in a classy way, but Dr. Preston's full preterism is what made me consider that Dr. Brown's positions were stronger.
Don , OH baby !! He just gets it. Thank you!!
I have seen many times how children of a deceased family fight over inheritance. Our home is not here. Let us look at Hesus. He is the author and finisher of our life. It does not please us his bride, his brothers and sisters to quarrel over things that are fleeting. Let not the enemy deceive us and being further division among us. Be sober minded, repent and run the race as Paul urges us. We are the light of the world. If we quarrel, it’s we are here, how are we representing Jesus? As a humble follower of Christ, I plead all of us out this difference to the side and focus on the larger, more essential goal.
Thank you’
Hint: Everything this fellow says has not happened yet, has actually happened about 2,000 years ago just not in the way he imagines it should.
Sadly, he won't be able to see until the death of his natural body when he'll then find himself in another form and see the truth of all this for himself. If he denies it then, that would constitute a sin against the holy spirit of which there is no forgiveness.