Dr. Brown Debates Dr. Gary DeMar on Israel and the Church
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2015
- Dr. Brown debates Dr. Gary DeMar on replacement theology, the nation of Israel as fulfillment of prophecy, and God’s future plans for the Jewish people (audio only).
Both men make great points. regardless one fact stands forever and that is God married israel. His promise is forever.
Here's the problem with what you just said about God marrying Israel. Yes, God did marry Israel, who rejected him and committed adultery against him. Scripture is clear on this. God did not dishonor the marriage; God was not unfaithful: the Jews were. Jesus came first to the Jews to reconcile the elect unto him. The rest rejected and killed him, just like they killed the prophets God had sent before (Matthew 21:37).
In Matthew 21, Jesus cursed the fig tree (symbolic of Israel), saying it will NEVER again bear fruit.
Matthew 21:19-21 (KJV) And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
The "mountain" (symbolic of the old Jewish/Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system, which was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrifice) was "moved into the sea" (a reference to the diaspora), which occurred in AD70 with the destruction of Jerusalem.
GOD DIVORCED PHYSICAL ISRAEL, REMARRIED SPIRITUAL ISRAEL
That marriage to the first woman, those who were genetically Jews ended in divorce. The woman was put away at the fulfillment of the old covenant, beginning with Jesus' ministry and ending with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in AD70, which was when the Christians who had remained faithful and remembered Jesus' warnings, did not come down from the housetops, but immediately and with haste, fled to the hills and escaped, while the unbelieving Jews were killed or taken and sold into slavery. This is all historically recorded for those who are willing to study history.
The new covenant is also a marriage, and it is a spiritual marriage, just like the first. God cannot be married to two women at once, for that is against His law. Unless you are willing to say that the new covenant is already in place, then frankly, you are not saved and do not even understand what Jesus' words, "You must be born again," mean. New Jerusalem is the spiritual city, the Holy city come down from heaven. Those who have been born again, have received the first part of the kingdom, the spiritual kingdom, and are already reigning with Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
If you doubt or do not understand that Jesus is sitting now on the Throne at the right hand of the Father as the Scriptures inform us, you will not see this: There is no such thing as a king without a kingdom. Jesus, as King of Kings, is not a king without a kingdom. He does have a kingdom, and it is called the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, or the New Jerusalem, or the Holy city, at it exists at present. This is the spiritual reality of the gospel, first understood by Abraham, unto whom this understanding was first granted, and his faith was accounted to him as righteousness, accepting the promise to live forever in the kingdom, by God's grace. Today, Abraham is physically dead, but spiritually alive in the kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem, as are all born again believers, currently living in the first portion of their eternity with Christ.
I did not always understand this. I was originally a pre-trib rapture pre-millennialist because, unfortunately, I was taking the word of preachers without doing as the Bereans were commended for doing, proving all things by searching the Scriptures to see if these things were true. I was mostly just reading, but not studying, as the apostle Paul advised Timothy to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." This issue warrants study, because it affects one's world view and understanding of what is really going on, including a whole lot of deception by the enemy. Pray and ask for understanding and for the revelation ("apocalypse") of Jesus Christ about the spiritual kingdom of God, of which Jesus said,
Matthew 13:9-17 (KJV) Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) "...The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
When is the kingdom of God within you? When you become saved -- born again -- and it is an eternal kingdom. This is why Jesus said to "preach the gospel to EVERY creature," including the Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists. Jesus made it clear that there is only one way unto salvation, which is through Him. John 14:6. There is not another way for someone just because they live in a physical land called Israel, a land created, by the way, by God-hating Zionists, the spiritual descendants of those Jesus addressed in John 8:44, Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.
John 8:42-47 (KJV) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
LXX Researcher why not go on further in Jeremiah to the 12th verse?
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion" also read Hosea the Lord never leaves his people. if he did, then we are lost too.
LXX Researcher I don't think you're right. as much as you seem to have studied this, it doesn't add up. are you suggesting that the people in Israel now are not a fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy? I don't know if I'm understanding you right.
LXX Researcher so if Ezekiel's prophecies does not go beyond the first century and are only parables. so why is the prophecies of Jeremiah different? I agree that these prophecies must be looked at from the perspective in that time in Israel but some of it goes beyond their day. you can not pick and choose verses from the bible and link it to what your beliefs are.. you must read the whole chapter or the whole book to understand. Berean? is that SDA? .
I will read your last response more closely soon. but I can tell you have an kingdom now prophetic approach to scripture.
By just treating the word "eklesia" in a proper manner, Gary won this debate, hands down.
Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
In my opinion, Gary DeMar's argument makes much more sense and logic.
Michael Brown did what he normally does. He rapid fired a mountain of verses and just assumed his position was consistent with them. Demar actually made an argument.
Yes Michael Brown makes an idol of Jewish blood. The only Jewish blood (or any other blood) we should be concerned with is Jesus blood!
Andrew Clover it was funny when dr brown, in his opening, kept saying “very simply syllogism” and then proceeded to give no syllogism whatsoever LOL
I really don’t know how after knowing and learning so much of the Bible and hearing people like Gary DeMars argument and not be convinced of postmill and prederist position. He is amazing
Confusing temple 3 with temple 2.No temple 3 New covenant simple
I love Dr. Brown, but Dr. Dmar did a fantastic job exegeting the Scriptures. I believe it is are you is far stronger, every answer, statement or rebuttal came from the Scriptures. Well done
I kissed dispensationalism goodbye. It is nothing more than fear based charismatic mayhem. Jesus is redeeming his people and culture by faith in his son.
Wang Jotson Amen!
Dispensationalism is not "Charismatic". Not sure where you got that idea from?
I think the charismatic Assembly Of God ascribes to dispensationalism as well as most southern Baptist
My point is that Dispensationalism did not arrive out of the Charismatic movement, nor is Dispensationalism some kind of litmus test to determine whether a community is "Charismatic". But, you are correct that there Charismatic communities which hold to Dispensationalism. But that doesn't make Dispensationalism a "Charismatic" theology. I believe that the Dallas Theological Seminary is a strong-hold of Dispensationalism (hardly a Charismatic group) However, I have done some more reading and it appears that you correct on this point, the Pentecostals and many branch off Charismatic denominations are Dispensationalist. But, [from Wikipedia] "Dispensationalism developed as a system from the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800-82) who strongly influenced the Plymouth Brethren of the 1830s in Ireland and England" John Nelson Darby was not a Charismatic. Thanks and be blessed.
I’m over here in Tyler, TX and everyone I come in contact with is going to be a die hard, hard headed, my pastor says so kind of dispensationalist and being that this topic ties directly into our involvement with Israel and all the war they want to keep dragging us into this topic is going to come up so I’m trying to learn as much about both views as possible, it’s looking like to me the covenant school of of thought is the most probable but if that’s the case there are literally millions of people in my state alone who are for lack of a better word “Wrong”
Galatians 3:28 (AKJV) 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
There are still men and women. Jews and Gentiles. All are alike under the power of sin and all need a savior.
@@christinetranchell4224 these men are not debating if there is a different way of salvation for Jews or Gentiles. They both agree that anyone that has salvation only have salvation through Jesus Christ. What they are debating is whether or not God in addition to the spiritual salvation of anyone in Christ still has a Covenant with the ethnic Jews as far as possessing the land that was physically promised to Abraham. They both agree that there is a higher spiritual interpretation that children of Abraham are Heirs of the promises in Christ but Gary as a preterist believes the spiritual fulfillment in Christ Alone is the promise but Doctor Mike believes in addition to that that there must still be a physical possession of the land by ethnic Israelites. Or is it both. The Bible already proves that all the physical promises to Abraham were fulfilled during the reign of Solomon oh, the doctor Mike believes that it should be a Perpetual promise and that they will always and forever possess the land. Gary believes that the higher fulfillment will be in the heaven and the new Earth.
Define jew.
Define gentile.
The main point of this verse (28) is Galatians 3:29. Paul is saying that Abraham's promise is available to all who are "in Christ."
@@christinetranchell4224 In context, Galatians 3:28 makes perfect sense, but when it is quoted in isolation, the word "neither" can have any sense one desires it to have. Only "one" sense of the word is implied in Galatians, though.
The only regret I have after these 25 years of being saved is that I would’ve known what Dr. Demar was saying. Especially the part about the church began with Israel and the mystery was revealed that the Gentiles would be one with them. There was is NO replacement theology.
And when you see it, you cannot unsee it. It's there laid out as plain as day.
Same here. I wish I had studied post mil 25 years ago. There’s so many scriptures that I’ve been missing simply because I dismissed them to some ethereal future state.
The old Covenant was replaced by
Jesus Christ
The New Covenant ✝️
@@P.H.888 The Old Covenant was Fulfilled by
Jesus Christ
The New Covenant 😊
The Church is not the REPLACEMENT for Israel. The Church is the FULFILLMENT of Israel.
The church was in the wilderness long before it was at Jerusalem!
Acts 7:37-38 KJV
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. [38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
After the two opening statements, I'm with Dr. DeMar
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
I find Brown is just floundering here. DeMar is very strong and sticks hard to Scripture.
SpotterVideo could you perhaps point me in the direction of some material that would clarify and explain your position? Something simple and concise
Why? Dr. DeMar is a so-called Reconstructionist/Dominionist. Reconstructionists support the full Christian takeover of the world through stealth and deceit. Ultimately, Dominionists ARE anti-semites, with all of Dr. DeMar's pretensions to the contrary.
@@richardlee2120 what nonsense to suggest anything DeMar believes to be antisemitic. A bold statement without an ounce of backing.
It proves that a real understanding of scripture is crucial in standing against false doctrine. People can find it easy to follow lies when they haven’t studied scripture. Gary de Mar gives a very clear exposition of Gods Word. He explains that the prophecies that the dispensationalists say are yet to be fulfilled, have already been fulfilled!
Awesome Gary DeMar....accomplished scholar.
He’s an accomplished spokesperson for Satan.
the regathering is in Christ
exactly. are we not the body of Christ? is it not the Spirit of God who works through us? by this principle are we not able to bind and loose what is in heaven on earth?
@@kreendurron we are, but the unregenerate are not. a lost Jew is in Adam
In Christ, indeed. But Jews have to be restored to their messiah, something that still hasn't happened. Nonetheless, this WILL happen just before the ressurection. And with the ressurection (ezekiel 37, rev 20, thessalonians) the physical regathering in the land.
@@vitorherold the invitation has been open since Christ ascended
Love Uncle Gary. During the pandemic, he convinced me of partial preterism. If Jesus tells the Sanhedrin that they'll see the Son of Man coming on the clouds and Revelation says that was happening soon and "soon" was relative to Jesus' day, I (a Christian of almost 20 years) had to ask "What else was Jesus right about?"
I heard him on the bible answer mans podcast out of luck...and started researching this stuff....and have came to the conclusion you have...the one that got me was God told daniel to seal up the books...but told john not to seal up revelation because it must soon come to pass....that and his breakdown of Matt Chapter 24...
As a recovering dispensationalist, the problem I see in Dr Brown's argument, like many dispensationalists is that they set up a strawman of the opposing view and then dismantle that. I'm not sure if 'replacement theology' is a term used by prponants. Perhaps it has been but it's not Dr DeMar's vew because it's not the view or terminology of the bible. Strawmen arguments are good for those who want to win debates but not for those who are seeking truth. I suspect that is why some comments say that they ignored each others strong points. What I found is that Reconstructionists such as DeMar understand dispensationalism very well but disp's do not understand other points of view, certainly not that of the preterists.
+Nathan Ellery Disp needs comfirmation of it's view about the physical land promise in the NT and it's completely absent. When Paul refers to God's promise to Abraham he says he didn't receive it but he looked to a spiritual city. Hebrews, the letter to Jews never supports a literal return to the land.
Instead the NT authors speak of 'the mystery' that the prophets couldn't see. No the mystery is not the church separate from Israel. Never mentioned! Don't make things up. The mystery is specifically stated that believing gentiles are to be grafted into Israel and become inheritors of the promise. Disp's and their focus on Israel is all OT (note how often they quote from it and how little from the NT). It ignores God's latest revelation in the NT.
+Nathan Ellery As someone who was once a deacon in a Dispensational church, I would like to thank you for having the courage to throw off John Nelson Darby's doctrine, that has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in America. When you have some time, watch the UA-cam video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" to see the origin of the doctrine. Also, take a look at the links at the top of that page. You may want to spend some time taking a look at "New Covenant Theology" which was taught by the Apostle Paul. Both Reformed Covenant Theology and Dispensational Theology have problems at Galatians chapter 3. The Law was added 430 years "after" the Promise to Abraham and that Promise was made to only Christ.
This is so true. Ive seen many debates and have been part of many myself with them, and have yet to hear a dispensationalist properly summarize the amill/ post mill or historic premill view. Total ignorance of church history and total unwillingness to investigate positions outside their own. Maybe _that_ is an over-generalization but again, this has been my experience.
Most frustrating is the false dilemma advanced by these folks, namely, that the only eschatological scheme that accounts for God’s promises to ethnic Israel is dispensationalism. That is just PATENTLY FALSE. But through these “fair speeches they deceive the hearts of the simple.”
Btw, I don’t think it’s a salvation issue but I do think that views on eschatology can so greatly either hinder or help one’s soteriology that errant eschatology _can_ truly damage some person’s faith, to the point of unbelief. I’ve witnessed it.
Nathan, I've only listened to a half an hour of this so far, but I caught this. Also, I think Michael is the most objective and knowledgeable teacher I listen to, but he seems to have the same problem with this issue that every Messianic believer I've come across has.
Michael Cobb
God has not broken His promises to the Jewish people. He promised to bring them back to their land and being faithful, He has done that. He promised them a Messiah, and after hardening their hearts, He has promised to take off their blinders to behold Jesus as their Messiah. God’s promises in the Old Testament were mostly unconditional. If God broke His promises to the Jewish people, how could you trust Him to keep His promises to you?
I once held to Dr. Brown's position. But I now find it biblically untenable.
God's covenant with Abraham is to his seed (singular) not to his seeds (plural). And the singular seed of Abraham to whom the promises to Abraham pertain is Christ. The spiritual seed of Abraham is found solely today within the Church of Jesus Christ. This is all that matters, as racial birth or appearance carry no favour with God. It is they alone that are “blessed” and are now part of the eternal “promises made.”
We have moved from the natural to the spiritual with Christ and the new covenant. God's people are no longer restricted to a natural nation, but rather a spiritual nation. The old covenant has been superseded by a better covenant, an eternal one. Under the new covenant, there is only one seed today that matters - the seed of faith. The rest belong to their father the devil. Galatians 3:12-14, 16 proves that there is on one seed: “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith ... Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds (plural), as of many; but as of one (single), and to thy seed, which is Christ.”
Paul. Malcomson Amen !
Paul Malcomson: You are correct, but only HALF correct. The promise has two parts, and Gal 3 demonstrates that the Gospel (seed singular) is "In your seed (singular) shall all nations be blessed." BUT the previous section of the promise includes, the land, kings, kingdoms, nations, company of nations, they will possess the gates of their enemies, etc. So BOTH sections, the promise to the Nation (plural seed) and the promise of Christ the singular seed.
Paul. Malcomson
Romans 11 tells of God’s heart for unbelieving Israel.
It was a good debate. I have much respect Michael, but I do believe that Gary's position is much stronger.
DR Brown, it is eisegesis to read the OT w/o hearing what the NT says. The promise was to abraham and his Seed (Christ). all in Christ are heirs to the promise to abraham. land? Rom 4:13 says the promise was the whole world. types and shadows are gone
Shalom Aleichem bruce mercer Blameless & Shameless,
nor does it help anyone to read the B`rit Mila with a "greek mind". I do not assume sir, you do, please bear with me.
For example, so many confusion comes from the fact that most of my brothers and sisters in Yeshua ha Mashiach think that a new day starts at midnight and forget that Scripture is written with the understanding that a new day starts at dawn. You cannot just change that.
In acts 20:7-16 Paul traveled on yom rishon (sunday) not on yom sheni (monday).
Acts 20:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Read this carefully and know a new day starts at sundown. Paul traveled on a sunday. No rest on a sunday for him.
I have more examples of "the greek mind" being not the way to read Holy Scripture.
(Excuse my poor English, i am Dutch)
@@patrickvangelder1784 as u know the NT is written in koine but the mindset is hebrew not greek
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Shalom, the writings are in a Hebrew mindset, yes, but the minds reading those words often not. That is what i was trying to point out with my example.
Do you, sir read the Bible in the understanding that a new day starts at midnight?
Because if you do your exegesis of certain texts is going to be faulty.
@@patrickvangelder1784 6pm usually
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Around and about, haha...
What are your thoughts about the fact that Paul and the disciples came together to break bread after sundown
(start of "sunday") he spoke till midnight and traveled on a sunday? No sunday rest for Paul.
Paul and the other disciples were Torah observant jews.
Gary's viewpoint is correct.
I think they both are right. My personal opinion though.
The church is not just a parenthesis in God's plan, it was His plan from the beginning. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, wasn't He? If Israel would not have rejected their Messiah, no one, neither Jew or Gentile, would have been saved! Aren't you glad they rejected Him? Sad day for our Lord, but it was to the benefit of all, Jew and Gentile. There is simply no way the church age was "plan B" in God' mind.
Mike65809 as a dispensational, I affirm this. However, you seem to think this refutes Dr Browns position
Saying thank YAHUAH that Israel rejected YAHUSHA Messiah gave gentiles (other nations) a chance to receive Him is like saying it couldn't have happened if Israel (a nation of disciples) hadn't accepted Messiah and carried truth to the world. Do you see the the contradiction that YAHUAH has to succeed based on history over Scripture.
@@arthurbostic1963 You can be creative but Christ had to die, and not be made King over Israel. He told the Disciples such. History is not over scripture because history is God's plan in action, even from the very beginning and through the fall.
@@joshuakriese4604 I read it that he is affirming DeMar's position. The Plan B idea is essentially Disp. view which is of course not a sound position. Dr Brown may have a more mature, more reasonable understanding and position than most Disp but other Disp have authored the Plan B idea.
Part of the issue is the understanding of 'church' which is not a religious word, but means a gathering of likeminded people, common purpose. It's the same word translated congregation in the OT. Disp have made church have a meaning it doesn't have. God's purpose was not to create something separate, a 2nd bride (woman on the side) but to bring Gentiles into His Church, his people. It's the elephant that Disp miss when they imagine two separate peoples. And it's very clearly laid out.
Eph 2:9-19
(Eph 3:6) This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel , members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.(Rom 9:7) Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. (inc Gentiles!)
(Gal 3:7) Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. (inc Gentiles)
(Gal 3:28,29) There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ
Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.(inc Gentiles)
(John 8:33-47)
(1 Pet 2:9,10) But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (inc Gentiles)
@@NathanEllery I asked if you saw the contradiction that YAHUAH has to succeed based on history over scripture? Evidently you didn't read what I wrote or are so into Catholicism's revisions of scripture it prevents you from understanding we are saying the same thing how be it with different words. I prefer the original over Catholicism's words.
Dr Demar has with great care, dismantled all this Church/Israel nonsense. Well done!
DeMar was not even close.
+Paul Goodman
I'd love for you and me to flesh out our different positions from scripture. Are you willing?
Hey Wally, would love to chat. So I think that the error from believing Israel is through from not properly starting with a solid foundation for the direction of prophetic Scriptures. I wrote an article recently on prophecy in the Pentateuch and that is the foundation for what I think. It is just a blog and I am not fishing for clicks or anything, I get no monetary gain from people reading it. Here it is: endtimes150.com/prophecy-in-the-pentateuch/
The covenant was always with the assembly of the elect (i.e. the "church").
The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, with the exact text from Jeremiah 31 bracketed by two verses making it plain the New Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. We find the Church included in the New Covenant in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and it is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20. On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. In Romans 11 Paul used the Olive tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul said the branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. This is the word "so" of Romans 11:26, which is the manner of their salvation. It is not the timing of their salvation. There is no plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church. All of the Israelites were not "partially" blinded. Some have been blinded and some have not, just as Paul describes the remnant of his time in Romans 11:1-5. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant confirmed in Blood for all races of people at Calvary (Matthew 26:28). If we want modern Jews to be saved we need to share with them "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9, which reveal that the baby born in a manger is the New Covenant Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.
Gary demar the winner..
Solid biblical basis
Gary Demar makes the best case for his point of view. I used to be a dispensaltionist. Thank God he brought me out of that false teaching!
Same for us 20 years ago we learned of Gods Covenant and were freed from Dispensationalist delusions - Praise be to Jesus our King!
@@hellosunshine1090 the Lord has just brought me out of that nonsense too. Praise Jesus!
Kyle C no what really happened to you was you refused to believe the truth so now you have been turned over to a lie.
benny luken what lie specifically?
@@jcismyall It is just like the others with premil/dispensational/ futurist eschatology who upload videos and turn off the comments section. Silence. No answer. Just call you a liar....hit and run..... drive-by poster who will only hear his/her traditional doctrines.
the only replacement theology is dispensationalism
Amen, brother.
@@mahyakc8369 ?????
@@mahyakc8369 u mean new jerusalem? see gal 4:21-31. the old covenant was types in shadows where the new covenant is the true israel.
@@mahyakc8369 all the promises were in Christ
2 Cor 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you [g]by us, even [h]by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not yea and nay, but in him is yea. 20 For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 21 Now he that establisheth us with you [i]in Christ, and anointed us, is God; 22 [j]who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Acts 13:14 But they, passing through from Perga, came to Antioch of Pisidia; and they went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. 16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said,
Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken: 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they sojourned in the land of Egypt, and with a high arm led he them forth out of it. 18 And for about the time of forty years [d]as a nursing-father bare he them in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land for an inheritance, for about four hundred and fifty years: 20 and after these things he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they asked for a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, [e]I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who shall do all my [f]will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to promise brought unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus; 24 when John had first preached [g]before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was fulfilling his course, he said, What suppose ye that I am? I am not he. But behold, there cometh one after me the shoes of whose feet I am not worthy to unloose. 26 Brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and those among you that fear God, to us is the word of this salvation sent forth. 27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, [h]Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, [i]I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David. 35 Because he saith also in another psalm, [j]Thou wilt not give thy Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had [k]in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 but he whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, brethren, that through this man is proclaimed unto you remission of sins: 39 and by him every one that believeth is justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you which is spoken in the prophets:
41 [l]Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and [m]perish;
For I work a work in your days,
A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
@@mahyakc8369 no. it's Christ only. there are 2 groups of people, thise in Adam or those in Christ. no 3rd group called national Israel
Eph 2:11 So then, remember that at one time you were Gentiles in the flesh-called “the uncircumcised” by those called “the circumcised,” which is done in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without the Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you who were far away have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah. 14 For He is our peace, who made both groups one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In His flesh, 15 He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. 16 He did this so that He might reconcile both to God in one body through the cross and put the hostility to death by it.[d] 17 When the Messiah came, He proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints, and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21 The whole building, being put together by Him, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord. 22 You also are being built together for God’s dwelling in the Spirit.
Eph 3:1 For this reason, I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles- 2 you have heard, haven’t you, about the administration of God’s grace that He gave to me for you? 3 The mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have briefly written above. 4 By reading this you are able to understand my insight about the mystery of the Messiah. 5 This was not made known to people[a] in other generations as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit:
ofcourse God is not going to reject all the decendants of Isreal ,they need to come to Christ idividually like everyone
Right
Amen
Good debate. Have to say Gary won this one in my opinion
Not even close... He dominated the debate but cutting off Dr Brown continually... This is what people do who don't know what they are talking about.... This guy was all over the place and has very poor hermanutics.
You sure you listened to the debate?
@@kevinevans8892 yep
@@jeffs3594 I meant ntj4Christ. I agree with you Demar won. I'm also a former Dispey turned partial Preterist
@@kevinevans8892 ME TOO! Gary DeMar is my new favourite teacher. Such depth, and not the fear-fluff Dispensationisim creates.
ALL THE PROMISES OF GOD ARE YES & AMEN ~ IN JESUS CHRIST ‼️
Dr Brown the regathering began through the preaching of the gospel. In Acts 2 you see the gathering of Jews from every nation under heaven.
@Re L Its the regathering of the Elect of God, The True Israel of God.
@@yesnomaybeso5755 that's the point michael brown insists and you don't understand. Jews were scathered, but the elect are gathered? Flawed hermeunetics
@@vitorherold it’s not flawed at all. You don’t seem to understand that God is only going to gather those who produce fruit. All unbelieving Jews that reject the gospel are rejected as well as all unbelieving gentiles. So all gentiles and Jews that believe are gathered into the true Israel of God.
Dr. Brown invokes the true clear interpretation of OT, NT. Great job!
Gary DeMar, you're the man!
I happened to listen to this clip just a couple of days after the time of the blood/moon claims by Hagee.
Dr. Brown = "I'm Jewish! Blah blah emotional hype!"
Dr. DeMar = "Calmly exegeses of the scripture."
+Kevin Alawine - So you didn't listen to the first part when Brown is giving an amazing survey of God's promises of faithfulness to Israel throughout Scripture? Or are you just hearing what you want to hear?
+Joseph Knight Thanks for your kindly worded reply. It just seems that those who think Israel has been replaced by the Church ignore the fact that the OT prophetic Scriptures are speaking specifically to ethnic Israel. For example the Zechariah and Ezekiel passages that talk about Jesus coming and placing His literal foot on the Mt. of Olives and it splitting literally to save Israel from literal military enemies, but then somehow the Israel that is mentioned in that passage is then somehow an allegorical Israel? I see the events of Revelation as the culmination of the age and the end of the story of the family of Israel...
+John O'Donnell In Romans chapter 11 the Apostle Paul makes it clear that there is no such thing as a "Gentile Church". The wild Olive tree branches of the Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelite branches that believed in Christ. The unbelieving Israelite branches were broken off, but can be grafted back in through faith in Christ. There is now no salvation outside of the Church, which is the Olive tree. One of the biggest problems in interpretation occurs in Romans 11:26 when the word "so" (Greek-houto), which is an adverb of manner, is replaced by the word "then", which is an adverb of time. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ which is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6. This covenant is not waiting on a future fulfillment. The Deliverer came out of Zion about 2,000 years ago. Another problem is the idea of Israel's blindness. All of Israel cannot be "partially blinded", because then none of them could see that Jesus was the Messiah. Instead, some of the Israelites were blinded and some of the Israelites were not blinded. Consider supporting Jews for Jesus or Word of Messiah Ministries, who are taking the Gospel to the Jewish people now. We also need to thank the Jewish Christians, like the speaker here, who are spreading the Gospel to the Jewish people. We want to graft the branches broken off, back into the Olive Tree.
+Joseph Knight However, God gave them specific promises about that land and that all Israel would be saved. The big issue here is about whether God keeps His promises. I already know that "well, the New Covenant supercedes and adds to the Old" however, it is GOD who said it. For the sake of Abraham, He DOES care about the children of Israel still. Anything else is replacement theology.
Two class acts in this debate. It’s so refreshing to see two people debate in a Godly manner. I personally don’t see this as a huge issue, but totally understand why each is so passionate about it. God bless both of you as you fulfill God’s will for your life.
I don't debate in a Godly manner. The fact that many so called Christians have no concern for God's chosen ones will be a witness against them some day. People who endorse replacement theology are not Christians they work for someone named Satan and I don't care pius and holy they appear on T.V. To make a claim that God is replacing his chosen ones with the church is zenith of arrogance and hubris. The so called church in America has treasure trove of dirty little secrets. One of those secrets is their hatred of the Jews. We won't touch on all the other ones right now. Our Messiah taught us everything done in secret will shouted from the roof tops. Replacement theology is nothing more than wicked people putting lipstick on a pig then asking you isn't she pretty? What is behind this so called theology is their intense hatred of the Jews. And since they are a bunch of sissy ass little cowards they don't enough testosterone to simply admit that they are indeed simply continuing Martin Luther and Adolph Hitler's hatred of the Jews. Now to sell this vile slop to the Joe's and Jane's sitting in the pews they had come up with a seemingly benign reason for their unrestrained hatred for the Jews. They were not about to go in front of their congregations and say we are hate mongers and the people we hate are the Jews. They will only admit that in private. But remember everything done in secret will be shouted from the roof tops. So they came with the idea of calling this a "theology". This NOT A THEOLOGY THIS IS THEIR COVER UP FOR THEIR HATRED FOR THE JEWS. I know they wear expensive suits and careful to never let their vile little tongues offer hate speech. They even use 5 and 6 syllable words to explain their "theology" All this is ,is putting lipstick on a pig. They use the same filthy tactics Richard Nixon used to cover up Watergate. These people are cowardly and wicked. Their multi syllable words and their secret hatred of the Jews will be witnesses against them when they encounter our Messiah
I think Dr. Brown's point about scattering and regathering is a check mate for the replacement position:
Hear the word of the Lord , O nations, And declare in the coastlands afar off, And say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock."
Jeremiah 31:10
Not really. Define "Israel."
ABSOLUTELY HANDS down the most Christian DISCUSSION I have ever heard..This is NOT a typical debate but a logical...no winner take ALL talk..and no SELF DEFENSIVE insecurities ...which on issues like this...it is VERY important. God does keep His Covenants...We ALL accept THAT !
Now this was a very interesting debate well more like a serious discussion I've heard in awhile and good formatted also, this dose have one to really think about what we hear in main stream Christianity and what to the rite interpretation of the words used, will watch this one again for better understanding myself, thank you Dr Brown and Dr DeMar.
great insights from both guys. So refreshing to hear debaters that are kind and don’t overtalk each other.
I pray that the Lord bless these two wonderful brothers! No matter what position you hold, share the truth that Jesus is Lord with everyone! He is Lord and he is coming again.
I admire the willingness of both to debate. Awesome job, thought provoking, research provoking! Thankyou!
The Jews lost the lineage of the Levites! They cannot do Temple worship anymore. The world is a greater promise than just the land of Israel.
The Levitical priesthood is known and has kept its identity miraculously. It has also been proven scientifically through DNA testing. Some Believe that Y'shua is the Messiah.
@@valerierosproy1255 How much DNA? Do we do NAZI racial tests to verify their genetics? Identity as you put it is subject to a ethnic purity test which is just absurd.
@@gideondavid30 there is a group of levites that are ashkenazi and have kept themselves from mixture. They are already waiting for the rebuilding if the temple .
@@annelid4728 Jews with C,K or L for their last name are the descendants of Aaron. They are Levites. When you say Jews lie a lot what do you mean? Are they more wicked than other people?
The Jews know who are Levites. Maybe you don't, but that's ok.
Only took Gary DeMar less than two minutes to blow dr. Browns argument out of the park. (Flawless Victory)😁
It only took 60 seconds for DeMar to reach for a non-biblical source to prop up his position. That is so Calvinist its disturbingly normal practice. But its from Roman Catholicism and used by Jean Cauvin and the tradition is dutifully carried on by his followers to this very day.
@@baltichammer6162 I’ll take that as an ignorant compliment 😂
@@ReformedGibberish5881 Oh, thou self deluded one! How quick you are to make snap assessments knowing nothing about the background of the poster of the information.
But no shock, its how Jean Cauvin operated in ignorance and extreme narcissism enforced by the sword and torture chamber.
I'm still trying to find the passage where Jesus commanded his followers to have their own personal torturer.
@@baltichammer6162 sorry you feel that way
@@ReformedGibberish5881 Why?? Its not "feelings" that I base anything I post, its all direct experience of years of 1st hand observing Purest Calvinism in action behind the curtain (and masks) AND dogged research digging through piles of lies to find the truth of Jean Cauvin. As Jesus declared...can a rotten tree produce good fruit?
Awesome debate that ended EVEN MORE AWESOMELY!
Gary Demar hands down was the winner 🥇 🙌🏽
No.
@@christianity4245 😂Yes!
100% Not even close.
DeMar is correct. The Church is the Israel of God and Israel is the Church in the wilderness. You can use the terms interchangeably.
@Logos Logistics The Church comprises of saints from every tongue, tribe, people and nation who have put their faith in Christ for salvation.
As long as Dr. Brown sees a dichotomy in the Body of Christ between Jew and Greek he's exalting one over the other which is doing harm to the Body of Christ. Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
"This underscores everything I've said that 'the spiritual promises are spiritually fulfilled and the physical promises must be physically fulfilled'" BUT Jesus HIMSELF rejects this line of flaw reasoning by simply asking: *For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark **8:36* you strain at the gnat ignoring the certain death of choking on the camel!
What gift is a carnal real-estate transaction to those who are perishing?? What favor can God possibly be doing by brokering real-estate for the eternally damned??
inTruthbyGrace so many issues with your comment, you clearly don’t understand Dr browns position
This was an amazing and very informative debate, thank you brothers.
I found Gary had the more reasonable and biblical position.
Orthodox Preterists such as DeMar and Stephen Sizer are very straightforward in their approaches to eschatology. I rarely see a preterist use ad hominem tactics or condescending humor to make their point. They let scripture interpret scripture. Brown condescends and loves his belittling gotcha catch phrases. Many dispensationalists go further with uncalled for attacks against anyone presenting evidence against their position. To an unbiased observer, it appears the dispensationalists feel they need such uncivil tactics to make up for their weak positions. A strong position needs no such things to make their points.
Ortodox Preterists are one of the reason for the blindness of the church, to identify the false "Jehova witnesses " aka watchtower. When Isaiah 43:10 clearly speaks to the people of Israel.
I wonder if Dr Brown sees that the "branches " on the tree are all in common "believers"?
And what life do the branches have without the root? Who is the root, again? All branches are one in Christ, and without Christ, you can have your physical blessings, but they will not outlast the heavenly ones.
God's promise to Abraham is : " I Wiill make you __a nation". (Genesis 12:1-3)
Jesuschrist prophecy is : " I Will build My Church " Matthew (16:18).
The Nation of Israel are called: "Offspring of evildoers , ..a harlot." (Isaiah 1:v4 and v21)
The Church people are called: " The children of God " 1JOHN 3:1
Gary DeMar's position is undeniably biblical. It makes so much better sense as it is grounded in the totality of the Word of God. If the New Testament is allowed to interpret the Old, there is no way, that "Jewish fables" can be entertained.
Great debate of two men I respect and listen to. As a panmilliniest I see they both see the responsibility of the great commission NOW.
is this a debate for or against replacement theology? What are they debating here? demar is clearly not a replacement theologist, he is extremly biblical, clear and reasonable in his understanding and delivery.
No one teaches replacement theology. It's a red herring from the 80s that gets tossed around. Its a failure to understand what non dispensationalist believe. People forget dispensationalism is an entire system.
There seems to be a rejection of what Paul clearly teaches. I see this over and over and over again. And I have to ask, Why?
I wrote a comment above that I believe explains why. Many do not want to accept what God teaches, what Scripture teaches. Forget about the labels.
I feel this entire debate can be answered with one passage. Galatians 3:16, 26-29. This clearly shows who the promises were made to. We can go even further and read Romans 2:25, where Paul says with explicit detail that unless one obeys the law perfectly, he becomes uncircumcised (Gentile.) This all being said, we see the reality is that Jesus is the only true Jew, and the rest of humanity is Gentile, due to our sinfulness. But the hope given in Gal 3:26-29 is clear. If we are found in Christ, we belong to the promises. See, the thing I think they both missed in touching on, is that Christ Jesus is the TRUE Israel, and only those found in HIM, belong to Israel, regardless of ethnic background. All believers are Jews in Christ, and all unbelievers are Gentiles, outside of Christ. It really is that simple. Praise God, that I have been adopted as a son, heir to the promises, along with all my brothers and sisters of ALL ethnic backgrounds. One in Christ Jesus. "Here, we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come." - Hebrews 13:14
Except that this forgets Romans 11:25-27 " For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters,[q] so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number[s] of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
Israel is special to God. They are currently, from Paul's writing through today and into our future, hardened. They are not part of the "full number of the Gentiles" being brought in. They will be saved because of God's covenant. Because of this, we know that Israel is also not the Church. They are already a part of Christ; they do not need to be grafted in. And until the "full number of the Gentiles" have come in, the hardening will not be lifted.
@@Bob-rd3dg False. Paul teaches that the unbelieving Jews were broken off.
“Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear" (Romans 11:19-20).
He also teaches that they can be grafted back into the Olive tree.
"And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree." (Romans 11:23-24).
The problem in your theology, is that you are creating multiple Olive Trees. One that is Israel and one that is the Church. Clearly, as I have shown, Paul has only one Olive Tree, one covenant people, made up of natural (Jewish) and unnatural (Gentile) branches. This is the Christian Church, united together by Christ.
In reference to the passage you shared: yes and amen. Ethnic Israel will be saved, but not by a different means than me and you. They will be saved by faith in Christ, re-grafted into the already existing olive tree-the Christian Church. God's people are not divided as Paul makes clear. All Israel being saved comes solely through faith in Christ, and union to his body.
Hi @@merecatholicity. Thanks for the reply.
First, after reading your post, I have to ask: what IS my theology? You know my entire theology from a couple of paragraphs?
Second, I have one Olive Tree -- which is Christ Jesus. The church is made up of people. It is not an entity in and of itself. The church is made up of believing Gentiles and converted Jews. Unbelieving Jews are branches that will be broken off the tree. Believing church members can be grafted into the tree. This breaking off or grafting in is a symbol of salvation. Branches that don't repent are thrown into the fire. The church can not save you -- only Christ can do that.
Next, the church and Israel are not the same. We have the church since Jesus began building it. Israel existed long before. Today the church is growing, but Israel is hardened. Is part of the church hardened? Scripture does not say this. The church has a path as shown in scripture. Israel will remain hardened until the number of the Gentiles have come in.
This leads into the saving of all Israel. Israel is not the entirety of the Jews. The Jews are the children of Abraham. Israel began with Jacob. Israel has a special promise and a special relationship with God. In the end, all of Israel will be saved. That goes back to Jacob. The majority of these people are dead, never having heard of Christ. Do they get a chance after death, contrary to scripture, prior to Judgement? My bible tells me it is given once for man to die and then the judgement. Not, oh, one chance to accept Christ. Or perhaps you're into the concept of the elect, in which case a hardening of Israel makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Ahh, but Israel shall be saved -- they actually are the elect. Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. The saved Gentile are not the elect -- they must have faith and believe in Christ Jesus to be saved.
Back to your first reply, though, and my initial response to it. Israel and the church are two different entities. Israel is elected by God and will be saved -- not by overt acceptance of Jesus, but because Jesus blood is what will cleanse their sins. As a promise, not a calling. The church is to pull in the number of Gentiles. The church and Israel are different. It takes mental gymnastics (and special definitions of words) to pull them together.
They didn’t hit on it because this statement is false. Unbelievers are not Gentiles and believers are Jews. That isn’t biblical. There are believing Gentiles and Jews and unbelieving Gentiles and Jews.
@@hbkw7020 Read Romans 2.
Wow most respectful and productive debate I’ve ever heard
Men of God both sides have Holy Spirit
I agree with Gary on conclusion/position
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14.
Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (Acts 2:36)
I think this debate can be resolved by examining whether God deal with a whole nation all the time or he deals with the remnants.From the time of the exodus(the generation that murmured did not enter the land) to the grafting in of the gentiles(when those who sat in the seat of Moses to have missed bcos of jealousy)God has shown in the pages that he deals with the remnants.
I'm sorry Dr. Brown but, I totally agree with Gary. Especially after reading the Darby translation which correctly translates Ecclesia (Which is absolutely hilarious because Darby's translation refutes his own Eschatology).
Wasn't Darby one of the big Pre-Tribulation theory gusy?
True Israel was never about Flesh!
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5. Look out for the DOGS, look out for the EVILDOERS, look out for those (OF THE CONCISION) who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) and put no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:2-3. [emphasis added by me] AMEIN!
Scripture identifies who the true Israel is: A promise to Abraham and to his seed, not seeds... Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is that seed. Messiah (the perfect Israel) imputed into us through faith, ''the hope of glory.'' Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Messiah. Galatians 3:16. That is, all of us in Yeshua (Jesus), ''the true Israel.'' Hallelujah! And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, (Yeshua the seed) and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they ARE NOT all Israel, which are of (fleshly/national) Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. that is, they which are the CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, these ARE NOT the children of God: but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE are counted for the seed. Romans 9:6-8. Heb.11:13. For he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But HE IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter (FLESH); whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28-29. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ''Israel of God.'' Galatians 6:16. [emphasis added by me]
Pray for a ''peaceful'' dismantlement of the zionist state that arrogantly refers to itself as Israel. This nationalistic cult does not represent the blessedness of the Jewish people, their culture, their religion, nor their blessed ethnic heritage. Pray for the Jewish people, the Muslim people, and all peoples throughout the world. Also, pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Land, is not what these religious people need. Yeshua (Jesus) is ''Who'' they need! For he (Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, WHOSE BUILDER AND MAKER IS GOD. Hebrews 11:10. The Almighty will build not the Israelis! Our coming Messiah will establish the New Jerusalem as His sanctuary capital exclusively for His Anointed Israel. It is not about a fleshly nationalistic state capital built by the hands of man as is taught by the contemporary premillennial heresy. The city of the New Jerusalem is destined, by the Almighty, to be the eternal capital of the new heavens and earth. And on that day, there will be peace forevermore.
Bo Yeshua Bo... Come Lord Jesus come...
Patrick Williamson
Thank you so much for that, because your words put me in remembrance of what I learned when i was in Hawaii 86-87. But me being a simple minded man Bro. Brown's words kind of take the spiritual reality out of things.
I'm just saying that you made me smile with those Comforting words.
Jesus is HERE now as He lives inside every believer (John 14:23). He’s omnipresent therefore He is truly Immanuel !
I just found this debate on your channel. It’s very interesting and seems to explain a lot that Dr. Brown takes umbrage at Gentiles having equality with Jews, in Yeshua the Messiah through the crucifixion. It’s a little scary.
So is Dr. Brown saying that Israel trumps Jesus? That once the Jews come back, they will institute temple worship, or they come back and then suddenly believe in Jesus?
To be fair to Dr Brown (and I don't agree with him), he doesn't say that. I think he would would say that the Jews being brought to Israel is part of God's plan for salvation, not to bring back the Temple.
Yes, some dispensationalists actually do, blasphemously, believe that temple sacrifices will be reinstituted and that this will be the work of God. As you pointed out, Dr Brown does not hold to that. But yes, it’s sickening and an offense to Christ’s work on the cross.
they dont even follow their own book , Pagans askanaNAZI jews
@@erc9468 the problem is his whole argument demands it. He goes on and on “there MUST be physical fulfillment otherwise it’s meaningless” therefore his hermeneutic would demand a new temple with animal sacrifices.
Glad to hear what Dr Brown reported about John Hagee
+TheRevering Thanks for your gracious comments. I find that the more I look at Postmillenialism the more it makes sense to me and I do think Chilton's take on Revelation is very biblical and meritorious. I think because our mindsets are so automatically tuned to dispensational premillennialism due to the current culture that it is too much of an ask to see that the majority of Revelation has already been fulfilled.
I believe that all of it has been fulfilled
@@martinhenderson5503 Yes this is a view which I now hold.
@thecanberean a men I'm glad u have found the truth
Never answered the question “How do the Jews overture the judgment of God scattering?” the answer is no one can overturn the judgment of God.
Wow. Both men did awesome! This has been best challenger to usually unbeatable dr. Brown. I will be studying this
The land was promised to the descendant of Abraham. That descendant is found in Matthew 1:1. This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16. The promises made to Abraham were made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds. In Matthew chapter 21 Jesus said that the land belongs to "the son" who is the "heir". He is the descendant of Abraham who holds the title deed to the land. He paid for it with His blood at Calvary. He is Israel.
Here are some questions for Preterists:
1. What day did Jesus say the disciples would not see in Luke 17 that would come with observation? Luke 17 22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
2. Is Luke 21 12 and Matthew 24 9 allegory? Was Luke 21 given at the same time as Matthew 24 by looking at the beginning of sorrows in both passages and then Luke 21 12 and Matthew 24 9?
3. Is Rev 11 2 in the past when the 5th and 6th and 7th trumpet judgment occurred. If so, what happened at the 5th and 6th and 7th trumpet?
4. Did Jesus come in the clouds or is Matthew 24 allegory as well?
5. Did the angels proclaim the gospels to all the nations and all the tribes and all tongues before the 7th trumpet and then the end came?
6. Was the beast and the false prophet cast alive in the lake of fire in the past? Who were they? Who saw this?
7. What happened when the 6th trumpet sounded? Was 1/3 of mankind killed or is that allegory?
8. Is 70 AD the worst tribulation the world will ever see? Matthew 24 21 and Mark 13 19?
9. What is the abomination of desolation that triggered the greatest tribulation the world will ever see in Matthew 24/Mark 13? The phrase is where the Jews get the feast of dedication in the gospel of John. It was a blasphemy in the temple and a man proclaiming he is God?
10. What generation saw the Fig Tree bud in Luke 21 29-36? What Fig Tree bud when the times of the gentiles ended and 2 witnesses appeared and the 6th and 7th trumpet sounded?
11. After the crucifixion in Acts 1 6-7, Jesus was asked if the kingdom was going to be restored to Israel at that time? Why did Jesus say that event was in the Father's authority and they were not to know when that would happen? Why didn't He say it never would be restored to Israel after the city and temple were going to be destroyed like what He had told them when asked in public at the temple?
😂lo
@57andstillkicking The questions were not answered. This is a video that explains why the confusion happened with the early church.
ua-cam.com/video/UxghlSTFp7k/v-deo.html
Both these guys are excellent. Brown has some great points as does DeMar. Very impressive indeed. God bless
TheGeneral that’s my feeling too
There is no doubt that the scriptures teach that the church is the Israel of promise. However the confusion for most people is about the prophecy of the end times. I will have to do more studies on this. But so far from what I can perceive... it’s that in the last days a lot of Jews will turn to Jesus. Not all but a lot. That is to say whoever God preserved till that day.
Great intelligent debate between two guys I like in the apologist arena. Although I agree way more with Gary Demar. Dr White made some good points too thanks guys!
God DID fulfill ALL His promises to Israel - Joshua 21:45 Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass.
Joshua 23:14
"Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.
1 Kings 8:56
"Blessed be the LORD, who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised; not one word has failed of all His good promise, which He promised through Moses His servant.
Hundreds of Jews have already been saved in Israel. God has always called Israel His people because He chose them, not because they chose Him. He is faithful to His promises.
@@57andstillkicking Joshua 23:14 "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.
AT 1:00 mark, Dr. Brown, doesn't answer the question.
A terrific dialogue and debate!
Great debate . Respect to both men .
all the promises were fulfilled when Jesus raised from the dead (acts 13, 2cor1)
Not the ones pertaining to Israel. Only to salvation.
@@christinetranchell4224 read acts 13:13-41, and read what God said. u may also want to read josh 23:14-15, and josh 24:2-13. all the promises are IN Christ. in fact Jesus told the jews that the OT was about HIM not THEM
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 promises to Israel are still going to be fulfilled in Christ. Not yet. The nations will be judged for dividing the land. See Joel 3.
@@christinetranchell4224 joel 3 fulfilled in Christ
1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone-rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God- 5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it is contained in Scripture:
Look! I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and honored[c] cornerstone,[d]
and the one who believes in Him
will never be put to shame![e][f]
7 So honor will come to you who believe, but for the unbelieving,
The stone that the builders rejected-
this One has become the cornerstone,[g]
8 and
A stone to stumble over,[h]
and a rock to trip over.[i][j]
They stumble because they disobey the message; they were destined for this.
9 But you are a chosen race,[k][l] a royal priesthood,[m]
a holy nation,[n] a people for His possession,[o]
so that you may proclaim the praises[p][q]
of the One who called you out of darkness
into His marvelous light.
10 Once you were not a people,
but now you are God’s people;
you had not received mercy,
but now you have received mercy.
Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Gods word Is Not a Jewish fable! When was Joel 3:12 fulfilled?? When did the Lord cleanse and hold innocent the blood of Judah and avenge it? Judah 3:21. In Amos 9 God says I will bring back the exiles of my people Israel,they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them,they shall plant vineyards and drink the wine from them....and I will plant them on their land and they shall no longer be torn from their land which I gave them says the Lord your God. When was that fulfilled?? 1948!
Great job Gary DeMar
Dr. Brown is right.People don't understand the battle between good and evil....The controversy over this is huge and I believe what God says.My faith is only enlarged by believing God will fulfill His word concerning Israel.I wait on the Lord....and reject the summary of mere impatient men.
What a great debate congrats guys
Besides the fact that it's totally speculative, verifiably ahistorical, utterly nonsensical and completely unbiblical, dispensationalism is a really wonderful theory.
"Dispensationalism =
Bible lite Delusional "exempt me from my Christian Duty" escapism, that appears scholarly in its complexity, yet lacking all Foundational or Covenentally coherency.
Perfect for a church steeped in humanism.
I'm told its nearly unknown outside the USA, suggesting it's an 'American aberration' !
We are so Blessed to have escaped this trap - all praise to God !
Jesus said that when you read of the Prophets, you read of Him. Throughout all the old testament it leads you to a new covenant to Israel. A covenant of grace. But when Israels Messiah appeared to them They rejected Him and accused Him of being of a devil. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I wanted to gather you as a hen her chicks, but you would have it not. Israel was given the honor of and responsibility of taking care of Gods Vineyard, so to speak, because through Abraham's seed, the world would be blessed. That's talking about Jesus. Read Mark 12: 1-12 They blew it and God took it from them and gave it to another. Jesus cursed the fig tree ( representative of Israel ) and said that never again will they bare fruit. All through the Gospels Jesus preached to the Jews. His message to them was believe on the name of Jesus Christ and be saved. The church was born in Christ. It was Jewish , then later Gentiles were grafted in. The new covenant has been declared to all the world, to the Jew first and than the Gentile also. I don't see two covenants at work here at all. One of genealogy and another by Faith. The Jews claimed they were of Abraham and Jesus said you seek to kill me, you are of your father the devil. John 8: 37 - 47 In order for Israel to be Gods people today, according to my understanding of Jesus's words they must believe in Jesus Christ , which means they would than enter the Church. To say that to replace Israel with the church is false, it seems to me you take sides with the Scribe's and Pharisee's. Israel today follows the Tulmud. Do your research. It says that Jesus is burning in hell in his excrement and Mary is a harlot. They are committing war crimes and a host of of ocultic practices through Kabballa. So I ask what fellowship has Light with darkness. If you are in Love with Jesus, lift up His name and share the good news. If the Bible predicts a future repentance for Israel put them in Gods hands by prayer and quit supporting them in their sins because you will be held accountable as they will be. The early church did not split over escatology ( study of last days ) issues. When we stand before God on Judgement day we will be rewarded for what we did with Christ. Not rather that we support Israel in these middle east wars. Without Love we are just noise. It's all about Jesus not land or Genealogy. Jesus last words on the cross " It Is Finished. "
Dennis Barry read Romans 8-11
Read Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Zechariah
DeMar says there was no Church Israel distinction in the NT at 2:04:10 - Paul makes a clear distinction...
1 Corinthians 10:32 KJV - Give none offence, neither to the JEWS, nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD (Ecclessia):
Can someone help me which passage is the one Dr Brown is referring to speaking in scattering and gathering?
Josue Pizarro Brown says it a syllogism. God fulfilled His promises to regather ethnic Israel and there are no other unfulfilled land promises, but I think this is more a political argument than an argument from scripture, thus the syllogism.
Excellent, Dr. DeMar. The strongest presentation to bring correction to Christian Zionism. I've long been concerned that Messianic Judaism is simply theological over for the land mythology. And likewise, Christendom needs more teaching that provided on the core insight - The Ekklesia, or the congregation. Thank you. Now, the sad reality is my Brother in Christ, Dr. Brown, and others who profess a search for truth will ignore your correction teaching and revert back to the softer zionist apologetic.
+kennethdpricedotcom bloggerken I don't care about your religious beliefs, Zionism is a movement to free Jewish people from persecution, probably from people exactly like you. Now, feel free to have your little religious debates, as long as you don't speak against Jewish nationalism. But, if you are an anti-Zionist, then you are pro-Jewish persecution. Don't confuse your own religious problems with Jewish people trying to live in safety.
+Daniel Swindell First of all, Daniel, I don't recall asking for you to care, provide permission, or even respond to my comments. Likewise, I could not care less about some false narrative that now perverts Christianity to persecute Palestinians - including Palestinian Christians. Further, some of what you call persecution is simply judgment from God - and that is Biblical (as in the case of the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions). In addition, as an African American, the Jews might likewise repent for what they did do people of African descent - some thing I'm sure Jews are not taught. And as for persecution, one need not preach that line to blacks who've experiences much worst persecutions (including by Jews), without requiring the world to pay tribute and blood on some boogeyman ideology. DeMar completely deconstructed Mr. Brown's arguments. We need to get off this Zionist foolishness and share Christ with Jews. Your silliness about pro-persecution is also hypocritical as pro-Zionisst are pro-Palestinian persecution. God has one Chosen People - His Congregation (i.e., Ekklesia). Decide if you will accept or continue to reject Christ as all promises are now found in this.
kennethdpricedotcom bloggerken moron.
+Daniel Swindell You don't know how much I enjoy people that respond as you do. Thank you for revealing your depth - or better yet, lack thereof.
+LXX Researcher problem is confusion over definition. A biblical Israelite is someone who is under the covenant. It's not an ethnicity. Modern definition of jew is someone who has had jewish ancestors.
Bernie sanders or marx are just unbelieving gentiles. Their jewish ancestry means bubkas to God.
Since "flesh and blood " cannot inherit the kingdom of God, 1Cor. 15:50 I wonder what is the purpose of a third re-gathering of Israel in the flesh?
Joyce R U Serious where does scripture say a ‘third’ regathering is to happen?
Unless a man be born again... he can not enter the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is here and the kingdom of heaven is where we go where we put off this flesh.
In respect to the kingdom of god... Jesus said in John 14... I my fathers house there are many dwellings... he died to prepare a place.... by his spirit. As he said unless I go.... "he" the spirit can't come. The kingdom is here... the new heaven and new earth was established A.D. 70
@@jcismyall It doesn't
@@mahyakc8369 there is no 3 temples in the Bible. None and no where
@@mahyakc8369 there is no where in scripture that speaks of this
I feel like I need to listen to this twice. It was too dense for grocery shopping at the same time!
Excellent debate.
Brown needs to pick up his face then get back to the text.. great job Gary.
1:04, why didn't they preach about the land being important when speaking about the Messiah.
Acts 2 v 45
Great debate and questions.
The fact that there are no more tribes makes it painfully obvious that old covenant Israel is no longer around
Moreover, since all records of which israelite belonged to such tribe were destroyed in the AD 67-70 Fall of Jerusalem & Destruction of the Temple, there are NO records extant !
Please Brethren, Dr Brown, etc. al, stop trying to put a Comma where the LORD has put a PERIOD.
@Re L Sure he does! They belong to the Tribe of Christ
Why do dispensationalist ignore that God did fulfill His promise to return the Jews to their land when Xerxes permitted them to return and rebuild during the days of Ezra. They skip this return and then accuse God of not fulfilling His promise in the year 2017. I respect Brown, but DeMar has repeatedly explained in a debate about "replacement theology" that in Christ the Gentiles are INCLUDED but Brown, like the Jews in Jesus' day is talking about the land. I didn't realize how damaging dispensationalism was until recently.
never to be uprooted again.......?
The “renewed” covenant was always a land covenant starting with Abraham, renewed with Isaac and renewed with Jacob and renewed again at Mt. Sinai with Israel and the mixed multitude who joined them. Same as pictured in Revelation. Not only has the full land which was promised never yet been fulfilled, the New Jerusalem comes down to earth exactly where the land of Israel sits...there’s no promise of spending eternity out in “space” somewhere. The only promise is for God to dwell on earth with mankind like He did with Adam and Eve on Mt. Zion which is in the Promised Land.
Asherit it’s not a renewed covenant. God was clear that it was a NEW COVENANT. Stop adding to GOD’S WORD.
@@speechgirl36 so God was mistaken when Joshua wrote all the promises were fulfilled? was paul mistaken in rom 4:13?
bruce mercer Blameless & Shameless When did heaven and earth pass away which is when Jesus said that all would be fulfilled. You misunderstand Paul when you take him out of the context of Jesus’ Words.
I like Gary MeMar, and I've heard him do much better in other debates. He never seemed to get his footing in this one.
Dr. Brown is very good at that. Dr Demar has to stop him several times before the focus is shifted away from the present topic. I do enjoy both of them 'sometimes thou i disagree with both at same time in some things
Dr. Dmar is wrong when he says ( 1:13:13)
" I don't see a single passage in the new Testament suggesting the necessity of Israel to return to the land." ( that's a serious presupposition)
If the foundation of the New Testament , is the old Testament ; how can you separate the new from the old?
Nice false equivalency
What is more literal, the physical or the Spiritual?
Are we so dull, so hard of heart that we don't understand?
I'm not even sure what this guy means, that he is a Jew. What does he mean? Can he geneologically go back to Israel? REally? how?????
I got it Mr. Demar. Great job. Wow. Dominion not escape. And I heard you answer the question about the scattering and the gathering. God did bring them together as one new man in Christ. We have come to the heavenly city.
+Helen Williamson
Incorrect. The diaspora happens after 70 a.d
Jesus, testifies that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles "until'
he predicts the great diaspora. That regathering hasn't happened.
Joel 3:2
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.
Now read the a timeline on antisemitism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism
History bears witness and is not lying.
*****
The body of "messiah" includes the chosen people and the congregation as *one*. Its ludicrous to think that God told Abraham all the physical borders of the land if that had no bearing on the future.
*****
Lets start with "there is no female or male"
You admit that there are females and that Paul didn't permit a women to teach?
*****
I am not, "moving away" I want to get to each point in the discussion. As for Paul he states this right after talking about Women not teaching: …"13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."
Do you admit that Paul is stating there is a difference between Men and Women?
*****
You brought up this scripture, recall. its important we go through this "step by step" and we can get to all the other issues in "steps". You will admit that there are actually Women and Men. I don't think you will deny this. I want to write in small amounts so as to get the point across. This is relevant, do you have an idea why Paul said the statement about "male and female, slave and free" etc?
Why do you think he said this?
Instead of quoting Spurgeon and Martin Lloyd Jones in his opening, I wish Brown had quoted evidence from the BIBLE.
I think at the end of the day there was more sort of baffled agreement than disagreement on most crucial issues.
Why are the Jews considered Israel when they are only one tribe, or at most 2 if you count Benjamin?
Even in Revelation we see that all 12 tribes are named of Israel. The Jews do not make up all 12 tribes. That being said, ten of the tribes, the northern tribes when being released from captivity in Babylon did not return to land of Israel. In short, I believe the Jews are not Israel and Israel is not the Jews. The promise to Abraham was for 12 tribes of Israel. Knowing this also, there is no salvation apart from Jesus the Messiah.
Therefore, Israel (all twelve tribes) WILL be gathered on Jesus' return to the earth, I believe, because Jesus is coming back to restore all things. The preaching of the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth is necessary to recover all of the full twelve tribes.
In Revelation, Jerusalem will be called Sodom and Egypt. So, I don't see if the Jews are returned to the physical land that they are the blessed and receiving the blessing and at the same time called Sodom and Egypt?!
Re 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
From what I see in the political state of Israel today, I see this title being bestowed upon it in the very near future. Jerusalem boasts gay pride and even Bibi has "blessed" the gay pride events.
I also wanted to say that I appreciate the civility of the debate and that it was easy to discern your brotherly love despite differences in understanding. Thank you for that.
TheTurtlee1 Have you considered INTER-MARRIAGES? What if some of the NORTHERN TRIBES got married to the SOUTHERN TRIBES and vice versa? What's the reason the LORD JESUS CHRIST will SET His FOOT in Mount Olives?
*****
YOU - Your point about the northern tribe just shows ignorance: being Israel is not only about having a jewish ancester, it is about a continuous transmision
Me - Rubbish. You citation is also rubbish to your point. Jesus IS the witness to all Israel and all the world.
How about this to show my point.
Rev 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."
You think all of them came out of the Jews? No, this is ALL of Israel and it even says that in verse 4.
Furthermore, biblical Judaism is derives lineage through the father. We do have the genealogies of the Bible to prove that. The rabbinical Talmud, of which you obviously ascribe, is antichrist and therefore not admissible or valid for doctrine or scripture.
*****
YOU - No, nobody saw this man except for Judah, romans and samaritans and some greeks.
ME - Re 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
YOU - And if Revelation contradicts John and Luke, it is then irelevant. AND But you didn't adress John or Luke.
ME - I have no idea what you're talking about here. What was the question I was to address?
YOU - I did not quote the Talmud, so this is really a strawman and irelevant point.
ME - Really?!!! Um, have you looked at your name? "Talmudpaix" or in English, "Talmud peace". I contend there is no peace to find in Rabbinic Talmud. They deny the very Prince of Peace, the messiah, Yeshua haMashiach. Would you be so bold?
Therefore, not irrelevant nor a strawman.
TheTurtlee1
I Chronicles 5 KJV
1Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the
chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
Judah - a son of Israel would become the father of a tribe which would
become the dominant tribe of the Southern kingdom after the death of
Solomon. A dynasty of kings would come forth from Judah but did NOT
inherit the birthright.
The birthright of which I am speaking are the promises God gave to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. I am speaking of the birthright which Esau sold to Jacob.
Please read I Kings 11:4-13 The accepted date for the rebellion of Jeroboam was in 933 BC. The northern kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BC. The major deportation of Israelites occurred in 724 BC.
There were four invasions of Israel by the Assyrians and the vast majority of the people NEVER returned to the land. Hence, they became known as the Lost Tribes of Israel.
The southern kingdom of Judah became a vassal state of Babylon in 606 -605 BC. Solomon's temple was destroyed in 586 BC.
Please understand, 138 years passed from the deportation of Israelite (the Northern Kingdom) in 722BC till the destruction of the temple in 586BC. Hence, the Israelites of the Northern kingdom had NEVER heard of the term "Jew" The first reference to a people known as Judahites is found in the Kings. The vast number of reference occur AFTER the deportation of the Southern Kingdom to Babylon.
All of the descendants of (Jacob) Israel are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews! The inhabitants of the Northern Kingdom of Israel are Israelites but are NOT Jewish and were NEVER Jews.
this is a global metaphor. Egypt and Sodom is the "world".
Gary DeMar won this debate hands down. Thanks and God bless to whoever posted this video.
Interesting, I thought that Dr. Brown won it hands down with Scripture.
It didn't seem to me that either of them "won" the debate, although I thought (mainly because of Dr. Brown) that some differences were cleared up
Utahstrong
Then God bless Dr. Brown who put this video up.
So Brown seems to make the case that God has two objects of his love, Israel and the Church? which then is somewhat confusing. Didn't Paul say Christ came to break down the wall of partition and make all one in Christ?
The Jews and Gentiles are his family. One in messiah,distinct in callings,same in salvation.
There are those who believe the Old Testament is about the Jews, and those who believe it is about Jesus the Messiah. Just as there are those who believe the New Testament is about the Church and those who believe it is about Jesus the Messiah.
On my second listening.
1). I wish Dr Brown had outlined the differences between his teaching and that of the Dispensationalists. Many times he states, "I am not a Dispensationalist," but does not explain the differences.
2). Does Dr James R White share the views of DeMar? If yes, I believe he would explain his point of view better. I really did not understand DeMar's arguments.
Tangle2Brook No, Dr. James White doesnt have the same view as DeMar. In a lot of interviews at both sides.. dr Brown and dr James White that they give to each other.. they are at the same level.
+Tangle2Brook Dr. White isn't Premill, he's Amill. He's not quite as pessimistic on the end times as the Premill view and certainly not nearly as optimistic as the Post Mill view. He does share the views of DeMar with regard to the fact that we are presently in the "millennial reign" of Christ. The difference between DeMar and White really comes down to the extent of the victory of the Gospel(speaking in terms of the numbers eventually saved). DeMar believes that the gospel will fill the whole earth and that the majority of the world will be saved within a non literal millenium, that through the spread of the gospel, men and women will be changed in such a way, that even once worldly institutions will be claimed by Christ. Laws will be changed, based on the Mosaic civil and moral code(not the sacrificial or ceremonial code, which is a very important distinction).
Christ being the second Adam, living the life Adam couldn't live... restoration of all things. Think back to the Garden of Eden, then think forward to the Garden of Eden. Then Christ returns. I will let someone else handle the differences between historic premill and Dispies, because I don't want to misrepresent them. And it should be noted, Dr. White doesn't really speak on eschatology much, if at all, so much of what I attributed to him is based on the very limited information I have heard from him on the subject.
+RJ D you run into irreconcilable problems with a Calvanistic perspective. That is, how to understand eschatology in light of ALL of the scriptures.
jamie Russell I don't have that issue as a post millennial, partial preteristic theonomist. And I definitely understand eschatology in light of ALL the scriptures. And not just the scriptures themselves, but with a consistent hermeneutic and sound grammatical historical exegesis.
+RJ D Can you please explain to me why Jeff Durbin holds with such fervency to the centrality of a post-Millennial view with regards to how we are to live in the world? Because he so often ties Post-Mill to evangelism and our work in bringing God's Kingdom. Like, in what way would my view of the importance of evangelism and kingdom-work by diminished if I believed Jesus will come before or after the Millennial kingdom? I don't get it. What's the difference?
The name "Israel" is first used in Gen. 32:28.
Jacob ("heel-catcher"; "deceiver") wrestled with God.
God won, but Jacob gained SPIRITUAL victory.
So, God gave Jacob a new, SPIRITUAL name
(just like God had done with Jacob's Grandfather, Abram/Abraham).
The SPIRITUAL name was "Israel" ("he who had wrestled with God and man, and has prevailed").
ISRAEL was a name given to ONE MAN, who gained a SPIRITUAL victory with God and men, and became a NATION.
This should remind us of one very special person in the New Testament; for He is the fulfillment...the antitype...of this Israel.
And all who are a "new creation"...all who are "in Him" are the "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).
Revelation 12 reveals who the REAL Israel is as well.
Another time for that one.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
Is there video of this?