Dr. Brown Debates Dr. Don Preston on Romans 11
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Recorded July 8, 2015, Dr. Michael Brown debated Dr. Don Preston on Romans 11 and the phrase “the fullness of the Gentiles.” Dr. Preston is a full-preterist, who denies a future return of Jesus and a future bodily resurrection for believers. Dr. Brown is a historic (non-dispensational) premillennialist.
Dr. Brown fails to realise that those who believed in Christ in times past was that of Abrahams seed. Those who didnt was not. Today.....those who believe in Christ Jesus is Abrahams seed. He tends not to understand this. We start with clear scripture and work from that.
You forgot to mention Isaiah 41:8 - " וְאַתָּה יִשְׂרָאֵל עַבְדִּי, יַעֲקֹב אֲשֶׁר בְּחַרְתִּיךָ; זֶרַע, אַבְרָהָם אֹהֲבִי" - "But thou, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend;" - Since when are you Jacob?
@@kolyomhashem8711
It appears you’re really not following the debate. Go to the context of Isaiah 41 there. It’s an account, in history, about God delivering ethnic Israel from their adversary. Are you seriously suggesting we’re saying God is going to deliver Gentiles, in the 1st century (or in 2020), from this same adversary?? How silly. This is completely different than Romans 9-11 and it’s context + the promises/prophesies in question for this debate.
@@kolyomhashem8711 the OP comment has merit because it is precisely what Paul says and what’s specifically in question during this debate.
Galatians 3:26-29
For you are all sons of God >through faith< in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, >> *then you are Abraham’s seed* , and heirs according to the promise
Brown just doesn't accept the fulfillment of the spiritual gathering in the first century. Also, he fails to see that the Jews of first century was the target generation upon which the foretold divinely appointed times had come. God's wrath would come upon only THIS particular generation and free all generations of Jews after that. Therefore, there are no land promises for Israel after that.
You too should start with a clear understanding of scripture. You clearly dont.
At 1.25 in his closing statement, Dr. Brown give a jab toward Dr. Preston saying, "It doesn't take 12 hours to explain..." ... which was a reference to Dr. Preston having said, "I wish we had 12 hours to discuss these things ..."
The interesting thing about is, that it was Dr. Brown who brought the "12 hours" comment to bear early on in the discussion, when HE said, "I wish I had 12 hours to lay out my case" (my paraphrase).
Perhaps he forgot that.?
Preterism continually surprises me as it’s answering a lot of questions that I’ve had for 20 years. The whole new testament, I am finding, is giving the speaking the truth that the end or coming of Christ was eminent to them in their time. All of the pieces of the puzzle are coming into place and I’m getting very excited about what I’m learning. Thank you Dr. Preston for such a complete scriptural revelation of the last days or end times!
The clarity is truly a joy!
It seems to me that preterism is simply unbelief masking itself in faith! Seems easier to say yes it's already done and fulfilled spiritually than to actually believe God WILL DO the things he says he will do.
@@Manofwar7 friend, I spent my whole life in unbelief until I was supernaturally saved and born again less than three years ago. Given that everyone assumes future fulfilment, that was also my initial belief.
It was reading the scriptures, with prayer, and great study, that changed my mind. The scriptures indeed show us that Yeshuah did exactly what He said He was going to do! Praise and honour in the highest to the slain Lamb who lives and reigns!
@@andrewmiles2370 Praise God brother. It is odd that myriads of others myself included have spent a vast amount of time in prayer and study and come to a different conclusion. I have listened to Dr Demar quite a bit. Particularly with he and Dr Brown. IMO it just seems like unbelief masked in faith. Just my opinion sir. Blessings to you.
@@andrewmiles2370agreed.
Don's position is showing how old covenant scripture is fulfilled in the new covenant which is the definition of letting scripture interpret scripture while Mr. Brown's argument is ''these thing's haven't happened yet'' which is the typical rebuttal from ALL futurist that debate a preterist without the use of exegeting scripture in it's proper context. Winner: Don Preston.
George? Aren't you forgetting the EXHAUSTING accusations of "antisemite"? I wonder if Paul & Christ are antisemites? 😂😝😝
1948 : You will know by the fruit. Moral decay is all i have seen. Wheres the blessing. There is none.
EXACTLY! Communism & atheism aren't fruits of the saviour I know
Gentiles are blind to Israel as Jews are blind to Jesus. The tragedy centers on the current blindness of the Jews towards Jesus as it's caused by the overt Idolatry of Christianity.
Where's the blessing? Jesus bore your sin and you, as a believer have immortality. I may suggest a far greater thing than 70 or 90 years of bliss in this world.
Very sad to hear Dr. Brown saying Dr Preston use of scripture being abusive. The thing is that he is not being emotional but simply presenting biblical evidence. Dr. Brown does not want to see just like the 1st century jews.
The premillennialist position has too many problems for me to go back to it. I'm glad that I was introduced to the preterist position long ago to be able to study and see how much more sense it makes. Christ is truly sufficient enough that we don't need to look for a time when our flesh and blood bodies are recreated. Our hope is in Christ and not flesh and blood.
Do you believe Satan is bound?
It DOES make sense! I only learned futurism for 47 years! I heard Brian godawa crystallize so many points that I had to keep studying. I never knew life would be this lonely, though
@@Joshcaldwell24 lol.. this is always how I see futurists respond to preterist. They avoid all the core arguments and ask some side question about satan or a physical ressurection (which have nothing to do with the arguments for or against preterism themselves).
Let me ask you, can you tell me who/what is satan? The greek (transliteration of Hebrew) is a word (not a name) that means opposer/accuser/adversary. So I’m asking who is/was this adversary and asking for the scripture that explicitly identify who this accuser/opposer was to the biblical authors.
@@therealjakedean3317 tell me please about the second coming of Jesus when it happened how it happened?
@@ivanhuertas5307 well they told Christs followers it would be soon, within their generation, and it would bring salvation (as well as relief for their persecution) as well as judgement against transgressors under law (as well as retribution against THEIR persecutors). So if you believe what they taught to their followers you can read and do the “who/when/where/what/how/Etc” calculations
Watching brothers in Christ share dialog in attempt to teach the truth is fulfilling regardless of which side you may choose.
Dr. Brown is so smug. "Abuse of scripture" he accuses Dr. Preston with. Very sad
Tell me about it. If I didn’t hear Browns discussion with other positions and only heard his discussions with preterists I would be convinced he’s a rude idiot. He engages with preterism how extreme leftists engage with anyone who oppose their dogma; by resorting to abusive ad hominem among all manner of question begging + non sequiturs.
@@therealjakedean3317 that's right. He uses words like ' heretical ' to describe preterists and partial preterists -- while he conflates the geopolitical Israel with the remnant of Israel -- to say nothing of his presupposition that Israel today is the Israel of 2000 years ago.
@@timothykring4772 tell me about it man. I clearly perceive his methodology is based on speaking to the choir to scare them away from ever considering preterism as something serious to be contended with but rather to be afraid of it! Way to teach his audience how to think critically 🤦♂️.. I’m so glad to be freed from this system of designed enigmas to control people with fear!
Can somebody please show me in the New Testament where it says that God is still dealing with 2 different covenants .. It seems like nobody teaches this ( other than the debated Romans 9-11) . So if Don Preston is so wrong that there is one New Covenant made up of Jew and Gentiles "one new man" , where is he wrong ?
Adrian Posteuca : Praise The Lord Sister. God Bless you!!!
EXACTLY, ADRIAN! God also wouldn't break his own law.
Brown is wrong. In his closing argument he said "there is a New Covenant, not a new people"....... that statement is clearly false. Christ said those who reject Him, reject the Father and in another place He says they're not of God.
Predestination is simple: God elected a people, he would scatter his people (with the norther kingdom scattered thoroughly among the nations) and He would (through the death of Christ, nailing the laws and penalty dealing with adultery to the cross then) regather the lost sheep from the house of Israel. Bringing the north and the south into one new man through Christ. After that, The good news goes out to them with this great news.
One has always been saved by grace THROUGH faith. Though God has a remnant... He loves the world... and ALL can chose to place their trust in Him or keep it misplaced. Remember, God is faithful to all his promises. Some are unconditional regardless of faithlessness one behalf of people and some are conditional, all pointing to Christ. The book of Romans is written to the root of Roman Catholicism’s birth of what we call Replacement Theology. The law, as Paul said, would never and could never undermine the promise to Abraham. The law (that is the law God gave to Moses) was never put in place as a way of earning your salvation (though that’s what some of Pharisaical leaders made it into with Halacha aka: Works of the Law).
One covenant made with Isreal (the northern tribes who would be scattered among the gentiles) and Judah (in the south). All else would be grafted in, just as one was always able to be grafted in, yet with the full revelation of scripture.
Moreover, even in Jewish Orthodox today when someone says that someone “fulfilled the law” they don’t mean abolished. What they mean is that you have rendered scripture (it’s interpretation) correctly both in word and in deed. Giving it the full meaning both in spirit and application.
Mr Brown sounds exactly like a dispensationalist even though he denies it.
Dr Preston is a true scholar, a real bible teacher with a perfect understanding of fulfilled eschatology.
Yeah, be careful throwing the "perfect" title around. He may be wrong and Dr Brown may be wrong. There's only one who was/is perfect.
I hear you brother, Dr Preston is right and he has a complete understanding of fulfilled eschatology. Perfect = complete = full; understanding. You're right, only Yeshua was perfect as a man. Don has a perfect understanding of fulfilled eschatology. The end of the old covenant.
Not 100% in agreement with dr preston but lean more toward his interpretation than dr browns. This was a great few hours spent listening and learning. Thankyou and blessings
If Dr. Preston is correct, the New Covenant did not go into effect when Christ died on the Cross and the temple veil was ripped in half by God. Why then do we see the New Covenant "now" in effect in Hebrews 8:6? If Dr. Preston is correct and we are now in the forever New Heavens and New Earth, we need to get an astronomer to explain to him what happens when the sun begins to run out of Hydrogen fuel and the sun becomes a red giant. So much for a present eternal state...
If you keep reading Heb 8:13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
The cross had already happened but it says the OC will soon disappear. 70AD
Read what the OT says about heaven and earth, it is a jewish idiom about the temple, not a physical heaven and earth.
@SpotterVideo I agree with you. The New Covenant went into full effect at the cross, and I also believe it started to break through at the beginning of Christ's ministry "The time is coming, and NOW IS" "The law and prophets were until John, from THAT TIME the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached" "repent the Kingdom of God is AT HAND" (not 40yrs later).
One must remember that there is an overlap of Christ's ministry from Old Covenant to New.
@@loobell3236Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Hebrews 8:16
In that He says, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
("In that He says", and then he quotes from Jeremiah. Quotation of Scripture, then explanation of its fulfillment. This quotation is brought up again in chapter 10, I'll cite that as well for clarity.)
Hebrews 9:16-28
16For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” 21Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another- 26He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 10:8-16
8Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
Transition@@timothykring4772
Thank you Dr. Brown for your clear teaching of the word of God.
I agree. I have no clue what Dr Preston's point were so confusing
miguel rivera I once held the theological position for over 40 years that Dr. Brown holds but I no longer do. I have a BA degree in theology and can read and understand Biblical Hebrew and know some Greek. I have read the entire Bible through cover to cover for over 50 times. I still continue this blessed practice. I say all this to give perspective in saying this: No one should ever claim they are mature enough to NOT be misled. Until one has refused to be dictated by the "voices" of denomination, creed, and even church leaders and does one's own careful research on alternative views which are also theologically sound, then you can come to your own educated decision. I would add that I do not fully agree with Dr. Preston on some points and I do not totally disagree with Dr. Brown. Very enjoyable debate. Respectfully, In His service.
David thank you for your perspective. Ive come to the point in my life that you cant put your faith in not one man or denomination. All are in error in one point or an another. I've learned truth in my own research that has seperated me from my own denomination up bringing but still struggle with some issues. I believe we are living in times were deceit is rampant. Deceit is not something that happens in a short period of time but instead, something that takes generations to accomplish. Ask your self how can the very elect be deceived knowing the truth? It can't happen in my opinion. The people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Thats what i believe the times were in. They hate the truth. Why? Because its not whats been taught to them. Whats your thought?
miguel rivera Yes, I believe we are evidently living in times of deceit, however, the times started since the Garden of Eden. There will always be deceit and deceivers, but there is always the Truth, there is general truth (2+2=4) and there is Biblical Truth. One is misguided from Biblical truth primarily as a result of a failure to apply sound Biblical Hermeneutics. (I recommend an old Hermeneutics book from 1885 entitled: Biblical Hermeneutics by Milton S. Terry.) As to the "elect" being deceived -- the first principal before us is what is the definition of "the elect?" Once defined, one must stick to the terms defined. Are believers chosen unconditionally or are there contingencies placed on the chosen (e.g. "If you continue," Col. 1:21-23)? Since believers experience the blessings of Divine grace upon the heart, it does not annihilate sinful tendencies. We are to resist the solicitations to evil of all sorts, including deceit, and continue to yield our lives to His way of righteousness because, again, the sinful nature in man is not wholly destroyed, but must be always held in check and habitual restraint (Gal. 5:17). Being slothful and careless in our pursuit of knowing the truth is a sinful tendency of the flesh. I agree that "people are destroyed from lack of knowledge," but it is only "because you have REJECTED knowledge..." (as the verse continues in Hos. 4:6). Hosea is referencing the priests at that time who were responsible for teaching the Torah. Respectfully, David
David if i may ask your opinion on an eternal hell fire. Do you believe there is such a punishment of an eternal life in hell if not repented, or rather an eternal death destroyed by hell fire and deleted from existence? If i may share my thoughts on the subject I've come to realize that most people that attend church and say they are Christians only follow Christ because of fear of hell rather then Love for Christ. Not believing in an eternal hell makes me less doubt my self and why i follow Christ. Your thoughts please.
Great job Dr Preston
DR BROWN ALL I CAN SAY IS ~"BEAUTIFUL..VERY BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS"..SO ALL WE NEED TO DO IS SEE WHICH ONE NEWS IS MORE BEAUTIFUL AND DR BROWNS HAS THE BEAUTY OF MERCY GODS LONGSUFFERING MERCY THAT OUTWEIGHTS DONS BY TONS AND TONS OF LOVE ...U WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT AND DONS HAS FRUIT BUT NO WHERE NEAR DR BROWNS...BR ELIJAH..LET BROTHERLY LOVE CONTINUE
The Bible clearly teaches that true Israel are those that accept the Lord Jesus Christ. To make an argument for the physical Israel or the Israel of the flesh goes against this truth in my opinion.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Galations 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
That being said, I think and hope that there will be a revival of Jews turning to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in these last days. Furthermore, I am not a full-preterist and think to be one is a false position. It is clear as Dr. Brown stated that there are many things yet to occur in the Bible. Also the arguing about the Greek is pointless, just stick with the King James Bible and argue from the English within context.
Remember.
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
What do you do with Ezekiel 36 and 37
@@weiyishen Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
@@weiyishen The people were brought back into the land after the Babylonian Captivity. Jesus is the KING mentioned, he brought in peace everlasting and established his covenant and the temple which is now the body of believers who are sanctuaries that God dwells in.
@@klohitman the House of Israel did not go to Babylon, but to Assyria. When was the House of Israel brought back, and reunited with the House of Judah, so that they are one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel?
When did God sprinkle water upon them and make them clean, and give them a new heart and a new spirit, so that they would walk in God's statutes and judgments, and keep and do them (Eze 36:25-27)?
@@weiyishen The prophecy in Ezekiel 37:22-28, which speaks of the reunification of Israel, the reign of "David" as king, and the establishment of an everlasting covenant, is understood in the New Testament to be fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Here’s how these elements are fulfilled:
One Nation, One King (Ezekiel 37:22-24):
Fulfillment: This prophecy is seen as being fulfilled in Jesus Christ, who is referred to as the "Son of David" and the King of Kings, bringing unity to both Jews and Gentiles under His rule.
New Testament Reference:
John 10:16 (KJV): "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
Cleansing and Salvation (Ezekiel 37:23):
Fulfillment: Jesus is seen as the one who cleanses His people from sin and idolatry, making them holy and acceptable before God.
New Testament Reference:
Titus 2:14 (KJV): "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
Hebrews 9:14 (KJV): "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
David My Servant Shall Be King (Ezekiel 37:24-25):
Fulfillment: This is often seen as a messianic prophecy fulfilled in Jesus, the descendant of David, who reigns eternally.
New Testament Reference:
Matthew 1:1 (KJV): "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."
Revelation 22:16 (KJV): "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
Everlasting Covenant of Peace (Ezekiel 37:26):
Fulfillment: The New Testament presents Jesus as the mediator of a new and everlasting covenant, bringing peace between God and humanity.
New Testament Reference:
Hebrews 13:20-21 (KJV): "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
Ephesians 2:14 (KJV): "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"
God’s Sanctuary Among Them Forever (Ezekiel 37:27-28):
Fulfillment: In the New Testament, this is understood to be fulfilled in Jesus, who is the true temple, and in the indwelling presence of God through the Holy Spirit among believers.
New Testament Reference:
John 1:14 (KJV): "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Revelation 21:3 (KJV): "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."
These passages show how Ezekiel’s prophecy is seen as being fulfilled in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and in the establishment of His eternal kingdom.
Dr. Brown, I see that you have produced a video attempting to refute my views on the resurrection. Please, let's debate that issue! When do you want to do that? Unfortunately, I see that you disabled comments on that video, or I would have posted this there.
Come now, and let us reason together! I am ready. We can even do a formal public debate on this if you so desire! I look forward to hearing from you!
Mr Preston, @ about 22 minutes in, Mr. Brown asks if it's happened throughout church history, that the church has made Israel jealous. He should be ashamed of his skewed reading of scripture due to his Jewish bias.
This is actually what the parable series in Luke 15 is all about. Let me explain. The lost coin and lost sheep are really about the rejoicing that was supposed to take place when they were found. The prodigal son continues the theme. The older brother refuses to rejoice when his younger brother is "found". But who do the older and younger brothers represent in the parable? Of course the older brother is God's firstborn, Israel and the younger, Gentiles.
Because Moses had prophesied that Israel, in her last days, would be made angry and jealous by a foolish nation, Jesus was reiterating the prophecy that was about to take place. The next two parables of the steward and Lazarus and the rich man continue the prophetic story but that's too long for this post.
Why does Paul quote the song of Moses in Romans 10? Because that's exactly what happened in acts 13! As the Gentiles came the second Sabbath to hear Paul preach, many Gentiles were saved but the Jews who refused to believe became, wait for it.....angry and jealous.
Hi brother Preston! Truth will always have it's lovers seeking it out. Much like scaled eyes & hearts, we can't force it. It's a lifetime of futurism to overcome in many cases. Blessings!
@@Ben-qb4lj PART 2
***First, examining the word Appearance, and Revelation of Christ coming. There are specific context that these words enlighten in a certain direction which we will examine: the 2nd Advent of Christ, and or his physical appearance. However, there are other meaning that revealing or revelation and or appearance would not mean Christ physical return.
The word epiphaneia Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine: appearance, Definition: appearance, Usage: appearing, manifestation, glorious display. Accordingly, 2015 /epipháneia ("conspicuous appearing") emphasizes the fitting impact Christ's visible appearance will have on the entire world - i.e. all who see it (saved and unsaved). In the NT, 2015 (epipháneia) occurs six times - always used of Christ's coming (once of His first coming, 2 Tim 1:10).
We will look at the word EPIPHANEIA / EPHIPHANEIAN, CHRIST 1ST ADVENT OR COMING:
2 Timothy 2:10 and now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel, 11to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. Paul, in the book of Titus 2:11 stated: the grace of God has appeared, in context verse 12; introduces, Christ who came. Then in verse 13 Paul states: ChRIst SECOND ADVENT OR COMING.
CHRIST 2ND ADVENT OR COMING:
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival. (Very interesting to take note of, 2 Thessalonians 2:8 has a double force of Christ PHYSICAL RETURN: his epiphaneia (majesty) and parousia (arrival) which we will look up later.
Titus 2:12,13,14: v13 as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance(epiphaneia) of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 6:14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance(epiphaneia) of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing(epiphaneian) and His kingdom:
2 Timothy 4:8 From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day-and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing.(epiphaneian)
Examining the word PAROUSIA: CHRIST ADVENT OR 2ND COMING
3952. παρουσία (parousia):Strong's Greek: 3952. παρουσία (parousia) parousia: Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ. a presence, a coming - Occurrences ALL OCCURRENCES RELATE TO CHRIST PHYSICAL COMING, EIGHTEEN(18):
Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7,8; 2 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 3:4,12;
***1 John **2:28** interesting note to make, phaneroo and PAROUSIA***
Parousia meant these individuals were physically coming NOT spiritually or allegorically, HERE ARE THESE SIX(6):
1 Corinthians 16:17 over the coming(parousia) of Stephanas; 2 Corinthians 7:6,7 comforted us by the coming of Titus; 2 Corinthians 10:10 but his personal presence is unimpressive referring to PAUL; Philippians 1:26 by my coming to you,PAUL; Philippians 2:12 in my presence only, but;
(12)OCCURRENCES -JESUS CHRIST’S ADVENT OR COMING:
PHANEROO: TO MAKE VISIBLE, MAKE CLEAR Strong's Greek: 5319. φανερόω phaneroó: to make visible, make clear Part of Speech: Verb Definition: to make visible, make clear
Usage: I make clear (visible, manifest), make known.
6 OCCURRENCES OF CHRIST COMING ARE THE FIRST AND 2 OF HIS SECOND COMING
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ
Mark 16:14 Later as they were eating, Jesus appeared to the eleven
Mark 16:12 After this, Jesus appeared in a different form to two
Hebrews 9:26 But now He has appeared once (CHRIST First COMING)
John 21:12 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to the disciples
1 John 3:5 But you know that Christ appeared verse 8 This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. (Jesus Christ, the Lord’s First Coming)
1 Timothy 3:16 He appeared in the flesh (His First Coming)
1 John 1:2 And this is the life that was revealed; (First Coming)
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears,(phanerothe) then you also will appear with Him in glory. ( Christ’s SECOND COMING)
1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, (Christ second coming)
***1 John **2:28** remain in Him, so that when He appears, interesting note to make, phaneroo and PAROUSIA are made as A STRONG INDICATION OF CHRIST COMING (second coming of Christ)***
1 Peter 1:20 but was revealed in the last times for your sake. (Christ first coming)
THIS HAS TO PERTAIN TO JOHN THE BAPTIZE: JOHN 1:31 He might be revealed to Israel.”The word is phaneroó: to make visible, THE POINT IS STILL VALID JOHNS appearance to Israel, PHYSICALLY.
Other WORDS which INDICATE CHRIST PHYSICAL APPEARANCE:
CHRIST FIRST COMING:
Hebrews 9:28 and He will appear (Horao)a second time, not to bear sin, APPEAR horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
@@Ben-qb4lj PART 1
Full-Preterist are HERETICS. Apostle Paul already dealt with this ERROR in his time. My first question is do you full-preterists believe the resurrection of the saints happened already and Christ second advent came and went? If yes, then 2 Timothy @,18 applies to YOU.
2 Timothy @ And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort. 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
Hymenaeus and PHiletus were the Preterits of Old. Now these preterits reemerges such as: Don Preston, Mr. Sullivan, Mr William Bell and others promulgate that the RESURRECTION HAS PAST ALREADY with their selected text phrases: as soon, at hand, shortly, quickly, little while, will not tarry, at the door etc.
Paul instructing Timothy that their messages/teaching are LIKE A GANGRENE. These false teachers, the Preterits, attach a spiritual meaning, metaphors and allegorizing the doctrine of the resurrection of the body, instead of a literal meaning.
Regarding Matthew @, Luke @-22, James 5:7-9, 1 Peter 4:7 and 1 John @, if these passages came to pass, according to preterits, Where is the Savior, Jesus Christ?These texts are cherry picked out of their context and the overall context of the N.T. If the book of revelation was fulfilled, Jesus Christ killed the BEAST/antichrist and his Kingdom shall be on earth.
Lets look at Matthew 24, if "this generation" does mean the apostles then look at verses 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So after the tribulation, Christ second advent has come: sends his angels to gather his elect to be with the Lord (Matthew @-41*;1 Thessalonians @-17), resurrect our dead bodies ( Philippians @-12*,20, 21*; 2 Timothy 4:8; Revelation20:5; 1 Corinthians @,20,23, ***42,43,44, 51-53***56,57), marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9), the BEAST kills the two witnesses Their dead bodies lie in the street (Revelation 11:3,*8-10*), Christ DESTROYS the BEAST/WICKED ONE and or Antichrist with those who know NOT GOD and OBEY NOT the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:*7,8,9,10*;2 Thessalonians 2:4-*8 ;Revelation @-*20,21*), 2 Peter 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat HAS NOT CAME TO PASS YET. THAT'S CLEAR and the Scriptures are EXPLICIT.
Yes, things were fulfilled as to God's vengeance of his people, however, QUOTE ALL OF Luke @ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
As stated above, in Christ coming these events shall take place, Jesus Christ did NOT come for his promise lift up your heads; for your redemption drawers nigh. Where is my Redemption, if Christ came already?
1 John 2;18 "it is the last time" I agree it is the last time. Does this "it is the last time" mean that Christ 2nd return came already? No. Look at what the same author says 1 John 2: 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Notice, John said "When he SHALL APPEAR" Christ did not appear at that moment, most importantly, if Jesus came around 70 ad or 90 ad, John the Apostle REFUTES this in 1 John 3:Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
Apostle said "We know that WHEN Christ appears, WE WILL BE LIKE HIM" How was Christ after his resurrection. He had a spiritual body(1 corinthians15): walking thru doors while being shut (john20; Luke 24), and able to eat with this body (Luke 24:*40-43*). Do we living today have this spiritual body?
@@thetachmoniteb825 do you realize the heresy you mention is about 2 that said Jesus already came back? Yet, they seemingly didn't expect the world to melt or actual heavenly bodies to hit us. Interesting? Oh. By the way, scripture believers have always been called names. Much worse than yours. Preterists simply believe what Jesus said. Look past the vacuous defenses. Look at what actually happened in the first century. You aren't supposed to know, but learning is easy these days. 5 historians wrote about it & didn't even have a new testament. Once I learned that Luke 21 happened (exactly as Jesus said of course), I began letting scripture explain scripture.
The New Jerusalem already came down to earth. It is spiritual, not a physical kingdom.
"Do you not know that ye are the temple of the Holy Spirit?"
"The kingdom of God cometh without observation" because it is spiritual, not physical.
Amen!
PART 1
Full-Preterist are HERETICS. Apostle Paul already dealt with this ERROR in his time. My first question is do you full-preterists believe the resurrection of the saints happened already and Christ second advent came and went? If yes, then 2 Timothy 2:17,18 applies to YOU.
2 Timothy 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort. 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
Hymenaeus and PHiletus were the Preterits of Old. Now these preterits reemerges such as: Don Preston, Mr. Sullivan, Mr William Bell and others promulgate that the RESURRECTION HAS PAST ALREADY with their selected text phrases: as soon, at hand, shortly, quickly, little while, will not tarry, at the door etc.
Paul instructing Timothy that their messages/teaching are LIKE A GANGRENE. These false teachers, the Preterits, attach a spiritual meaning, metaphors and allegorizing the doctrine of the resurrection of the body, instead of a literal meaning.
Regarding Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:20-22, James 5:7-9, 1 Peter 4:7 and 1 John 2:18, if these passages came to pass, according to preterits, Where is the Savior, Jesus Christ?These texts are cherry picked out of their context and the overall context of the N.T. If the book of revelation was fulfilled, Jesus Christ killed the BEAST/antichrist and his Kingdom shall be on earth.
Lets look at Matthew 24, if "this generation" does mean the apostles then look at verses 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So after the tribulation, Christ second advent has come: sends his angels to gather his elect to be with the Lord (Matthew 13:38-*41*;1 Thessalonians **4:15**-17), resurrect our dead bodies ( Philippians **3:10**-12*,20, 21*; 2 Timothy 4:8; Revelation20:5; 1 Corinthians **15:19**,20,23, ***42,43,44, 51-53***56,57), marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9), the BEAST kills the two witnesses Their dead bodies lie in the street (Revelation 11:3,*8-10*), Christ DESTROYS the BEAST/WICKED ONE and or Antichrist with those who know NOT GOD and OBEY NOT the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:*7,8,9,10*;2 Thessalonians 2:4-*8* ;Revelation 19:11-*20,21*), 2 Peter 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat HAS NOT CAME TO PASS YET. THAT'S CLEAR and the Scriptures are EXPLICIT.
Yes, things were fulfilled as to God's vengeance of his people, however, QUOTE ALL OF Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
As stated above, in Christ coming these events shall take place, Jesus Christ did NOT come for his promise lift up your heads; for your redemption drawers nigh. Where is my Redemption, if Christ came already?
1 John 2;18 "it is the last time" I agree it is the last time. Does this "it is the last time" mean that Christ 2nd return came already? No. Look at what the same author says 1 John 2: 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Notice, John said "When he SHALL APPEAR" Christ did not appear at that moment, most importantly, if Jesus came around 70 ad or 90 ad, John the Apostle REFUTES this in 1 John 3:Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
Apostle said "We know that WHEN Christ appears, WE WILL BE LIKE HIM" How was Christ after his resurrection. He had a spiritual body(1 corinthians15:46): walking thru doors while being shut (john20:19; Luke 24:36), and able to eat with this body (Luke 24:*40-43*). Do we living today have this spiritual body?
PART 2
***First, examining the word Appearance, and Revelation of Christ coming. There are specific context that these words enlighten in a certain direction which we will examine: the 2nd Advent of Christ, and or his physical appearance. However, there are other meaning that revealing or revelation and or appearance would not mean Christ physical return. Permitting that Scripture will dictate the context and meaning of the aforementioned words.
The word epiphaneia Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine: appearance, Definition: appearance, Usage: appearing, manifestation, glorious display. Accordingly, 2015 /epipháneia ("conspicuous appearing") emphasizes the fitting impact Christ's visible appearance will have on the entire world - i.e. all who see it (saved and unsaved). In the NT, 2015 (epipháneia) occurs six times - always used of Christ's coming (once of His first coming, 2 Tim 1:10).
We will look at the word EPIPHANEIA / EPHIPHANEIAN, CHRIST 1ST ADVENT OR COMING:
2 Timothy 2:10 and now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel, 11to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. Paul, in the book of Titus 2:11 stated: the grace of God has appeared, in context verse 12; introduces, Christ who came. Then in verse 13 Paul states: ChRIst SECOND ADVENT OR COMING.
CHRIST 2ND ADVENT OR COMING:
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival. (Very interesting to take note of, 2 Thessalonians 2:8 has a double force of Christ PHYSICAL RETURN: his epiphaneia (majesty) and parousia (arrival) which we will look up later.
Titus 2:12,13,14: v13 as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance(epiphaneia) of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 6:14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance(epiphaneia) of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing(epiphaneian) and His kingdom:
2 Timothy 4:8 From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day-and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing.(epiphaneian)
Examining the word PAROUSIA: CHRIST ADVENT OR 2ND COMING
3952. παρουσία (parousia):Strong's Greek: 3952. παρουσία (parousia) parousia: Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ. a presence, a coming - Occurrences ALL OCCURRENCES RELATE TO CHRIST PHYSICAL COMING, EIGHTEEN(18):
Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7,8; 2 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 3:4,12;
***1 John **2:28** interesting note to make, phaneroo and PAROUSIA***
Parousia meant these individuals were physically coming NOT spiritually or allegorically, HERE ARE THESE SIX(6):
1 Corinthians 16:17 over the coming(parousia) of Stephanas; 2 Corinthians 7:6,7 comforted us by the coming of Titus; 2 Corinthians 10:10 but his personal presence is unimpressive referring to PAUL; Philippians 1:26 by my coming to you,PAUL; Philippians 2:12 in my presence only, but;
(12)OCCURRENCES -JESUS CHRIST’S ADVENT OR COMING:
PHANEROO: TO MAKE VISIBLE, MAKE CLEAR Strong's Greek: 5319. φανερόω phaneroó: to make visible, make clear Part of Speech: Verb Definition: to make visible, make clear
Usage: I make clear (visible, manifest), make known.
6 OCCURRENCES OF CHRIST COMING ARE THE FIRST AND 2 OF HIS SECOND COMING
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ
Mark 16:14 Later as they were eating, Jesus appeared to the eleven
Mark 16:12 After this, Jesus appeared in a different form to two
Hebrews 9:26 But now He has appeared once (CHRIST First COMING)
John 21:12 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to the disciples
1 John 3:5 But you know that Christ appeared verse 8 This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. (Jesus Christ, the Lord’s First Coming)
1 Timothy 3:16 He appeared in the flesh (His First Coming)
1 John 1:2 And this is the life that was revealed; (First Coming)
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears,(phanerothe) then you also will appear with Him in glory. ( Christ’s SECOND COMING)
1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, (Christ second coming)
***1 John **2:28** remain in Him, so that when He appears, interesting note to make, phaneroo and PAROUSIA are made as A STRONG INDICATION OF CHRIST COMING (second coming of Christ)***
1 Peter 1:20 but was revealed in the last times for your sake. (Christ first coming)
THIS HAS TO PERTAIN TO JOHN THE BAPTIZE: JOHN 1:31 He might be revealed to Israel.”The word is phaneroó: to make visible, THE POINT IS STILL VALID JOHNS appearance to Israel, PHYSICALLY.
Other WORDS which INDICATE CHRIST PHYSICAL APPEARANCE:
CHRIST FIRST COMING:
Hebrews 9:28 and He will appear (Horao)a second time, not to bear sin, APPEAR horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
I wish Dr. Brown would be honest enough to admit that there is no way he can have an objective debate about this topic. He is far too invested in the fact that Premillennial dispensationalism greatly benefits the Jewish nation. If the majority of Christians stopped believing in a future distinct destiny for the nation of Israel, they would lose much of the blind support we Christians give it.
Secondly, after watching several debates like this, the argument against Preterism always comes down to the same thing, "since we don't see these things fully fulfilled now, your position is wrong." But Jesus Himself said the Kingdom is like a small seed that grows into the biggest tree or like yeast worked into dough. There is a suggestion of progression through history. The same is true with Psalm 110:1. Just because we don't see the OT prophecies fully fulfilled now does not mean that Jesus' Ascension and the siege of 70 AD were not the sign of their fulfillment. Futurists are really good at leaving out the role the church plays in the establishing of the Kingdom on earth.
Amen! Brown way of thinking is the same as the jews of the times of jesus. If you are a king where is your kingdom the jews asked and Jesus answered, my kingdom is not of this world.
Preston was much clearer and has a much richer understanding of scripture than Brown. Prestons arguments can not be refuted because they are exegetical and true to the original contextual meaning. Thank you Preston for another Preterist win :)
Hayden Blaby I'm not a pretorist but they answer alot of my questions. still studying but don't Preston always seems to win the debates. that said I still study to show myself approved to God. I got a ways to go. lol
Keep up the study brother. I came to the preterist position in 2003 after a life of study, I had to be talked out of what the bible clearly taught, Now it all makes awsome sence.
question for Mr. Preston ....so if you don't think that the their is salvation through faith then what was the purpose of Jesus coming?
Mr. Preston never stated that there is no longer salvation through faith. Have you studied scripture more in depth throughout the past 5 years?
Mr Preston certainly does believe by grace we are saved by faith.
Dr. Brown failed to make the case in my mind.
And, while I do not agree with Dr. Preston's view of the Second Coming, he made the argument he was tasked with making far more convincingly than Michael Brown.
Dr Browns position: the scriptures have not be fulfilled to my expectations, therefore "we haven't seen this"...lol to bad, the 70th week of Daniel was 2000 years ago. Sorry Charlie
Haha IKR! Every argument he has against preterists is summed up as follows;
“P obviously hasn’t happened according to my futurist definitions therefore it’s false” 🤦♂️ one would think Brown understands basic propositional logic and the concept of question begging...but seeing every debate against preterists makes me wonder - with his constant abusive ad hominems, non sequiturs, strawman, etc etc... it’s literally like hearing an extreme social justice warrior “prove/refute” anyone who opposes their position 😂
Dr. Brown's only argument is "this hasn't happened yet", "that hasn't happen yet". He just can't see with a spiritual eye but is looking through a Jewish, materialistic eye as the Jewish leaders in the first century did and as many Christians these days also do. (Luke 17:20)
Haha ikr. His response isn’t even an argument! Lol. It’s literally the same as saying “this hasn’t happened yet.” Except brown honestly thinks saying that is a refutation/rebuttal to preterism. He never even responds to preterism with a rebuttal. Every “argument” is summed up as “this hasn’t happened according to futurism therefore it’s false.” I wonder if Brown ever truly understood the concept of question begging. I honestly wonder about Brown having any degree. It appears he has never even studied basic propositional logic. In another debate (I think with Gary demar) he kept saying “here’s a very simple syllogism” and then he proceeded to give no syllogism at all.
Dr. Brown, I greatly admire your example of extreme graciousness and patience demonstrated in the debates, and especially debates with Dr. Preston. Dr. Preston adds tremendous volume to the Scripture with strings of red herring renderings and private interpretations of Bible verses and passages which he then uses as substantiation as supposed proof for the points he wants to make. Twelve hours would not be enough to reveal all the fallacies and liberties he has taken with the Scripture. How sweet it is when we take the Scripture at face value! The sad part is that the real meaning of what the Lord wants us to know through His word is hidden when passages and verses of the Bible are contorted and perverted to create false narratives or doctrines.
Brown seems to take a position that reminds me of Israel back in the time of Jesus, they totally missed the Spiritual looking for the physical, but can't say I agree with Preston's version of Full Preterism either. Good discussion though.
Same here. Somehow I believe that many promised things happened in 70AD but also that not everything was fulfilled yet and a few things are still ahead. Could you tell us why dont you agree 100% with any of them? I would like to hear your thoughts on end times. Shalom
@@ut-igazsag-elet8832 I agree with Preston more just to be clear. However, Full Preterism still leaves questions and many of them will have to remain a mystery on this side of heaven.
What is clear though, if we follow who, what, when, where, etc...what was about to happen was going to happen in the lifetimes of those living in the 1st Century in that generation just as Jesus said.
Amen, Dr Michael
Have mercy on us Lord Jesus!!! Please help this angry man to open his heart and see the truth!! Help us to walk in Your truth, love and grace!! Maranatha!!!!
if anyone is angry it’s brown. Every debate against a preterist he resorts to these unfounded insults.
Angry man? Dr. Preston is one of the most cordial, polite, saved respectful teachers I have heard.
@@therealjakedean3317agreed.
Debate Don Preston on the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. I heard Dr Michael Brown refuses to accept another debate. If Michael Brown has the truth why is he sooooooo afraid of Don Preston. For the record I'm not a Full Preterist nor a fan of Full Preterism but it seems Michael Brown is afraid of another debate.
The gospel has been preached to every nation. Col 1:23
I have always respected Dr. Brown and listened to many of his debates. It is obvious in most of his debates that he is biased in the positive toward the salvation of Israel as he is a Jew. This absolutely pollutes his eschotolical view of the scriptures. It is blatantly obvious. He even says "we" when he mentions the hardness that has in part come to Israel. This is surprising since he himself, as a Christian, is not under the hardness but rather the saved remnant.
Well, He is a Jew, so he would obviously be looking at the text through the literal lens of Scripture, like we're all supposed to.
Dr Preston is an intelligent scholar. But he exemplifies the charge: “People can make scripture say whatever they want it to say.” As a missionary in Asia I would have to tell locals to buy and translate all 27 of Dr Preston’s books so they don’t mistakenly read/interpret the most straightforward meaning out of numerous passages. Hearing Dr Preston attempt to explain that the resurrection of the dead and the second coming of Christ (as taught by Paul) have ALREADY happened truly exemplifies the danger of importing ones’s closed, confirmation bias onto a text. Dr Brown wins.
Your critique would carry more weight if you could point out where preterists fail. Preston's position is against my 40 years beliefs, but the dude won that debate and frankly, Brown did not point out in any way how the generation standing right in front of Jesus as he spoke, did NOT see Him return in their lifetime. Did Jesus make a mistake or did he come back? Preston won, but at least Brown had a go.
I have no idea what Dr Don is saying its so confusing and if i was even at a mature age as a christian i would still have no idea what he is saying. His replies to Dr Browns questions is not sound and all over the place
Dr brown your baseball game example made so much sense when trying to understand Dr Petersons views. Thank the LORD for you Dr brown your book our hands are stained with blood opened my eyes as a gentile believer i was forever changed. God is good.
Much Aroha all the way from Auckland New Zealand.
Tanya Paoo that's funny I felt just the opposite. no joke
They can both be wrong! God is not the author of confusion!
I'm a Premillennial Preterist, and I was left a little puzzled by some of the responses from both sides after listening to this debate. Apart from a very brief mention by Mr Preston near the end, nothing was said about the New Jerusalem being the primary focus of the NT writers. This 'city' is intimately tied in to the New Creation, with a New Temple, a New Land, a New Covenant, and a new restored people. And this New Jerusalem is a SPIRITUAL, HEAVENLY REALITY, belonging to another dimension of a New Heavens and New Earth (John 4:21-24; Galatians 4:26; Heb. 11:10 & 16; 12:22-24; Rev. 3:11-13; 21:1-5; 22:14). This is the key issue (besides Christ himself, of course), and it's a shame it was overlooked.
Agreed. I felt the same way. That very crucial element was unfortunately and completely missed in this noteworthy debate.
Also, Mr. Brown unfortunately doesn't have the spiritual eyes to see that all of the things that he claims hasn't happened yet were accomplished nearly 2,000 years ago at Christ's second coming.
+Larry Sims It amazes me that even though the consistent witness of the NT, taken in context, points to that 1st century generation as being the era when Christ's kingdom would be fully established over the nations of the earth, the majority of the mainstream Church has missed this completely! Baffling! We now appear to be living in the era when the Dragon has been released to bring about a spiritual 'Gog and Magog' battle before a coming Consummation event (cf. Rev. 20:7-10).
Gerry Watts .Purpose of Life I completely agree with you!
Is a premillennial preterist someone who believes that almost all prophecies are fulfilled in the first century, including the second coming of Christ, but who believes that we are now living in the millennium?
What do you mean you are a premill preterist?
It is openly acknowledged that Don K. Preston teaches Covenant Eschatology.
And it is openly acknowledged that:
Covenant Eschatology teaches that all of the events of Rev 20 began and ended within the natural lifetimes of Christ's Apostles, including: the resurrection of the blessed, holy ones (the first resurrection) and that of the rest of the dead, Rev 20:4-10; and the Great White Throne Judgement of Rev 20:11-15; after which some Apostles remained alive in the same flesh and blood bodies they started out with.
Covenant Eschatology teaches that the Apostles that had remained alive until the coming of the Lord, 1Th 4:13-17, were left on earth in their same flesh and blood bodies they started with when the event was completed.
Covenant Eschatology arrives at the above conclusions by defining resurrection G386 into a corporate change of covenant from Old to New rather than the change of an individual's body from a flesh and blood, natural body to a glorious, spiritual body like what Jesus presently enjoys.
The preceding and Covenant Eschatology's definition of resurrection G386, when taken to their logical conclusions, make way for a number of errors that some have arrived at on their way toward overthrowing their faith. As opportunity allows, these can be presented along with links to the testimonies of those who have so suffered.
Greetings beloved,
Great explanation and caution to all....
If I may offer my "developing" thoughts on the subject.
I hold to a partial fulfilment of Rev (chapters 1 to 20:6).....
I hold to this belief in light of and in alignment with Covenant theology, which therefore requires and demands Covenant Eschatology....
I do however also hold to a bodily resurrection as I believe that a glorified body, as and like Christ is what Holy Scripture teaches.
All this to say that I believe you can yield to Covenant Eschatology and not treat 1 Cor 15 as abstract spirituality.....
May the Lord bless you and preserve you by His grace and in His Name....
In Jesus we have our living hope...
🕊🙏❤🫂❤🙏🕊
@@kyritsitonakis5802 God bless! You said that you believe that revelation wasnt fulfilled completely. So what do you think: what is still ahead? Thanks
@@ut-igazsag-elet8832 Greetings brother,
This is a great question....
In my heart I believe it is all done...
In my mind I see deception in the world and so I try and convince myself that we are in a post millenial deception....
Though each day I am more and more at peace with not being certain....
Great Debate Dr. Brown. I have friends of the family who believe this. And I find it hard to believe this is not a slam dunk for us Christians.
I am beginning to think the answer is in front of us and we missed it because of the delicacy of the situation. This blogger dissects it quite well, and I would like to hear what You think. www.omegashock.com/2015/06/12/the-beginning-of-the-end-an-anniversary/
Dr Brown complains that Rabbi Tovia won't debate him yet he runs from more debates with Dr Preston.
Brown lost this debate.
Those who are scattered today are the believers in Jesus not the those who are not believers.
Dr Brown my question to you is ...if Jewish people are turning to Jesus for salvation which Church(congregation) are they turning to?
Who is Hope ? Answer: Jesus . By this .....who is without ? Those who are without that dont believe in Jesus. He is our Hope. You see of if we start our doctrinal fondatiion with The Chief Cornerstone we can then and only then come to know The Truth. The Holy Written. The Light. All im saying my Dear Brothers the enemy is attempting to change times and the seasons. Just remember they are trying to divide. Thats why Jesus refers back to the fundamentals of Scripture......Believe in me and you shall be saved. Praise His Name. I Love all You who Love Him. Hes working on me still how to Love them who doesnt believe in Him. Im starting to know the meaning of love your enemies. By showing them Love we thus , shine Hes Light and Light is what drawls. God Bless !!!
This is no exaggeration I mean it. If the messianic Jews are still waiting for a physical land to be their own, you may as well become a JW and preach on a paradise earth!
I have noticed when other denominations debate pretorist you here them misquoting them and heresey is thrown out there with no exojesus. this is intriguing to me to keep listening to them. it also seems they think they are superior to the pretorist, it seems the pretorist knows scriptures better than most denominations I have to study. thanks
They often resort to the intellectually vapid "antisemite" knee-jerk. Cop out for no debate.
Very true!
Do you know that you can run the video at x2 speed? ... Totally unnecessary in this case. Don brings many Bible verses, so I would have to stop the video to get the context. Brown brings many of his literal interpretations, and I would have to stop to ponder about it.
He's not DR. Preston. He is called that based upon an honorary degree only.
Makes no odds - unless you appeal to authority? That's a common fallacy.
It's still a doctorate. Honorary PhDs use "Dr" and have for decades
I don’t see that in Ezekiel 36 God would regather the people in the land in unbelief.
If it takes 12 hours to explain something from scripture that position is wrong.
You haven't studied revelations
Jesus says do not be amazed at this the day will come when ALL the graves shall be opened.thats at his SECOND coming. I see no rapture based on scripture,many are talking about again second coming in Thessalonians.
Dr. Brown said that he wrote 27 books non of which are about eschatology while Dr. Preston wrote 27 (22) books ALL about eschatology. I suggest that Dr. Brown go back over these debates he's had with Dr. Preston and listen longer with an opened mind, God willing the Scriptures will be clear to him and realize that the fulfillment in Yeshua is spiritual in nature and that we ARE NOW a new creation in the new heaven and earth.
Absolutely foolish point. I suppose it's easier to say "yes this IS it" and pretend to exercise faith than to believe what God says its coming with acrual faith. Preterism is simply unbelief masking itself in faith!
Dr. Brown just denied Jesus. For he is that deliver from Zion😐😓🙄
If words mean anything, this occurred during the generation of the disciples:
_"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. " -- Mat __24:30__-31 KJV_
Dan
Quite clear, really. That generation was waiting for Jesus's return. Church tradition stopped me from seeing this for the last 40 years. I remember thinking the apostles just made a mistake. Which is ridiculous. They got it from Jesus.
Dr. Preston, So right and yet so extremely wrong. Minutes 1-20
Your missing a huge part of the verse "For verily I say unto you, Till. heaven and earth pass, one jot or one. tittle shall in no wise pass from. the law, till all be fulfilled."
Heaven and earth have not passed away.
Position invalid.
Minute 45 hurts my head - just wow, that is out there.
The heaven and earth is a Hebraism , a jewish idiom of the covenant given to Moses. "Hear oh heaven and earth" According to Isiah " I covered you with my hand that I might establish the heavens and plant the earth" That old covenant system was changed when the temple came down in 70 ad. Josephus even explained how each part of the temple represented a different aspect of the heaven and earth. If you had used that term in the fist century, "take me to the heaven and earth" they would have taken you right to the temple. If heaven and earth have not passed, we are under every jot and title of tohra.
That is lunacy and beyond what the scripture states. 1 Corinthians 4:6 "Do not go beyond what is written."
Heavenly and Earth. The systems. Not literally heaven and earth
@@KingdomWithinU if heaven and earth are to pass away (cease to exist) as you seem to define it, then all that is in heaven and earth is going to pass away. This seems quite ridiculous to me and it ought to seem ridiculous to you.
@@timothykring4772 2 Peter 3:1-12
Dr. Brown stopped too soon so he missed the most important part...
If they abide not still in unbelief they will be grafted in.......
DR Brown is correct im my understanding and studying in depth.
9:58 timestamp
Misquotation of Romans 11:12
11:06 timestamp
Misquotation of 2 Timothy 4:16-18
● This one is directly tied to his argument which started at 10:37 timestamp. His argument:
"Now, since Paul said, that it was his personal distinctive stewardship, to fulfill, πλήρωμα, the word of God, the mystery; and Paul in Romans chapter 11 said that the salvation of Israel would come at the time of the fulness of the gentiles; now that means the fulness of the gentiles, and thus the salvation of Israel is tied to the end of Paul's ministry. It's tied to Paul's ministry, temporally! And Paul said, 2 Timothy 4:16-18, when he stood before Nero, that it was at that time that his ministry would be fulfilled, πλήρωμα, and that all the gentiles would hear the word of God."
2 Timothy 4:16-18
16At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them. 17But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that the message might be preached fully through me, and that all the Gentiles might hear. Also I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!
You cannot speak spiritually with a carnally minded man..pray for "Dr. " Brown to recieve the spirit of truth.Jesus is the resurection..nor the state of israel.
Excellent debate, like John MacArthur says: “if you get Israel wrong you get your escathology wrong” amill and post mill get it wrong, the church is not Israel and hasn’t replaced Israel. It’s interesting to me that MacArthur and Dr. Brown agree on this topic 100% it seems to me. Now preterism is on another level of wrong.
Maybe. Where is it wrong? I honestly thought Preston won this debate, but maybe you know where he is wrong?
Gentile does not mean Non Jew... or Non Israelite.
Both views could be wrong
It is very clear in Scripture that the true Israel of God is the new covenant Israel which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. The promises of God are fulfilled in new covenant Israel. The new covenant was made with Israel - not with Gentiles. However, Gentiles will be grafted (New Covenant language) into this holy nation of God. I am an adopted son of God with all the privileges afforded to believing Jews. Adoption is as legal as natural birth. I am part of the fulfillment of the promise given to Abraham. I am certainly blessed by the coming of the Jewish Messiah.
I THINK IF THEY BOTH SPENT 12 HOURS PRAYING INSTEAD OF ARGUING, GOD MAKE BRING MORE INCITE TO THESE MEN.
full-preterism goes against all historical christian creeds they say resurrection and second advent already happened. its a wicked heresy.
Advent is heretical Jesuit theatre
Creeds are not infallible, just saying.
OK everybody that watch this debate type in Dr brown vs Mr preston.
I don't throw the accusation of "heresy" around at leisure....but Preston's teaching on the resurrection and the second coming makes him a heretic.
Tripe!
+Hazakim Ministries Do you really want to question the sufficiency of Christ? Do you think that those in heaven are saying, "Well Lord, it's nice to be with you, but our true hope and need is to get our flesh and blood bodies back"? This to me is heretical.
+Robert Morrell
Mat 21:42 Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
***** Do you think Jesus is going to hell for say that? Are you really going to make an essential doctrine that requires a person to call those who call themselves Jews, and who hate and blaspheme Christ, and have no covenant with God, God's chosen people? Prove to me that anyone of those who call themselves Jews are descended from Abraham. I'm sure you have all the genealogy records.
This is what John the Baptist said to the Jews: Luk 3:8 "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
God has no interest in bloodlines. His people are according to covenant, not blood. If you want to argue that they are under the Abrahamic covenant, this is what Paul says:
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
According to Paul, the promises were not to Abraham's seeds, but seed only, which is Christ. Only those who are in Christ share in the promises.
In Galatians, Paul made an analogy of the 2 covenants with Sarah and Hagar. Hagar represented the old covenant, and her chidren are those under this covenant. What does Paul say?
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
The Jews under the old covenant are not heirs. I would dispute the idea that those who call themselves Jews have anything to do with Abraham.
According to Paul, this is what he says about being a Jew:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
So Robert, you are relying on a lot of unjustifiable assumptions when you call those who call themselves Jews, God's chosen people. You are distorting scripture to suit your own goal. You are ignoring clear teachings in scripture that contradict your position. So, who's the one who needs to repent?
YHWHisSovereign correct!!!!
Dr. Brown, I am a subscriber of yours and was as with Dr. White especially impressed by your debate with (what's his name??), ahh Anthony Buzzard [is Jesus God]... Well, I am at 54:11 and part way through your second rebuttal, what came to mind is Dr. White, going to debate, Don... Don't you think the supporters of White, deserve this??
For my unlearned understanding in comparison to yours and it's a prayer that we ALL come to the accurate knowledge of truth in His Word, a full preterist is a tough one to get a handle on, I agree and with brotherly love, I discern you haven't. Now, what happens in these debates (all the time), is a straight answer to a straight question rarely materialises... Mark 9v1? What is your understanding - remember this is Jesus word here (not that you need reminding). If you address later on, my sincere apologies.
Ps. Dr White is a great debater - you're in his circle - persuade him to debate Don, please? I've only ever seen Dr. White become unsteady (and had to switch off), when he debated Burt Ehrman - I may return to this debate. For the record, Burt is off of my subscription list!
How do you know this? Do you know his position on it? Rapture is a hideous doctrine. Lots from my understanding has been fulfilled...
Yeah, Burt rattled White. Not that he is right. I think Mr Preston is streets ahead of all of them.
Brown your not making any sense all your doing is just talking.
The gentiles were paganized Israelites. The physical seed of Abraham out among the nations that didn’t observe the law. The wild branches grafted in. We are not gentiles.
@@trumenfreight6055 sounds like he’s an Israel onlyist (IO). Which means any case of “Gentiles/nations” being mentioned in NT (in respect to being able to be in the new covenant) is the diaspora and never 100% gentile (ie must have some Jewish linage). This semantic is used as an axiom and is brought to scripture making discussions with IO very difficult. But ultimately Chad would have to define his own position.
@@trumenfreight6055 I just checked the Romans 11:11-12 and what a great question. How do IO usually respond to that question? I would love to hear how they would interpret those verses using their semantic
@@trumenfreight6055 yeah man. It’s bizarre trying to engage with IO and some of the other errors found in the preterist camp. They follow the inference through regarding basic preterism to then uproot from all other basic Christian doctrines. It really shocked me trying to engage with the community how the greater majority of the camp falls off into fundamental errors on even more basic doctrines than eschatology: ie doctrine of scripture (inerrancy/sola scriptura), doctrine of God, Gods decree, the fall, justification/imputation, law and gospel distinction, etc... I believe this is one of the main reasons committed Christians won’t consider preterism and continue to have creeds/tradition (other fallible men) to inform them of how they are allowed to interpret scripture (eisegesis).
@@trumenfreight6055 I think this is also why the partial preterists are completely overkill responding to a more complete preterism. If you are a preterist and see only 1 second coming that is already past, then you’re immediately labeled a hyper preterist and therefore a heretic and not worth a *scriptural* rebuttal or to be taken seriously. The reformed camp simply can’t discriminate between those who are orthodox in the completed camp (besides using church creeds as their criterion/rebuttal. Which is not in keeping with sola scriptura!!) and all those preterists who have fallen from orthodoxy.
There is nothing antithetical to the gospel message in seeing a spiritual ressurection. The gospel message is how the elect have become the righteousness of God in Christ, recieving eternal life (life that is by definition spiritual). I’ve never heard a teaching on the gospel that included a new physical body as necessary saving knowledge. Every good, reformed, teaching on the gospel I’ve heard includes 1. The role the Trinity plays in redemption, 2. distinguishing between law and gospel, 3. what sin is and how/why it seperates man from God (need for perfect righteousness), 4. Christ’s imputed righteousness, 5. Christ’s propitiatory sacrifice and ressurection (Death/sin had no power over Him), 6. the role faith/belief alone plays in mans redemption (that by belief man is credited with Christ’s righteous, not by works of law).
So sad that so many true Christians who are in agreement with the above facts anathematize eachother over what is, at the end of the day, petty issues (ie not saving knowledge). When we should all be working together refuting the actual heresies such as IO.
Israel has not yet looked upon the son who they pierced. EVERY KNEE has not yet bowedto the LORD and King Jesus Christ. Those things as well as the cloud meeting of the live and sleeping saints is in the future and not passed by 2k years.
REVELATION 1:3
Jeff david : Your correct. Those who Believe in Christ. Those who dont are not Abrahams seed.
ALSO YOU HONOR ME WITH YOUR TOTAL MIS-DIRECTION
Dr. Brown, u look so much lost in weight presently. Take care of your health
Dr. Brown has the gift of gab. He could sell a used ice cream truck to an Eskimo.
To claim a pre-70 A.D. dating for Revelation flies in the face of the general scholarly consensus that it was written after 70 A.D., well into the 80's or 90's A.D. towards the end of John's life. There are so many reasons why it's ludicrous to give the pre-70 A.D. dating for this book.
Preterism in any form also doesn't work if Revelation was written after the fall of Jerusalem. John was exiled to Patmos under Emperor Domitian who reigned from 81 to 96 A.D., and to say John was exiled under the psychotic Emperor Nero is highly improbable because Nero had no interest in exiling Christians and every interest in setting them on fire. The Laodicean church in Revelation 3 was depicted as wealthy in worldly riches, which would have been around the 90's A.D. as most scholars agree upon since a devastating earthquake in Laodicea took place in 60 A.D. and would have left them in abject poverty during that decade instead of decadent wealth.
If Revelation was written in the 60's A.D., then this was roughly around the same time Paul's letter to the Ephesians was written. If this is the case, then Paul and John contradicted each other regarding the state of the church at Ephesus: "Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers" Ephesians 1:15-16 and " And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience"-- Ephesians 2:1-2
"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place-unless you repent" Revelation 2:4-5. So which was it? Was the early church in Ephesus loving Jesus, or leaving their first love? It could not have been both.
1 John was written in the 90's A.D., which places it at odds with the Revelation pre-70 A.D. alleged timestamp. When he says 'it is the last hour', this could not have been referring to a pre-70 A.D. time frame. And if the end of the age had already taken place then this makes no sense. And there is no evidence for 1, 2, and 3 John being written before the fall of Jerusalem.
There is also no evidence of an established church in Smyrna in the 60's A.D. when preterism says Revelation was written. Polycarp (69 A.D.-155 A.D.) was a major leader in the church at Smyrna, as well as a disciple of John, and in his letter to the Philippians he writes in chapter 11 that while Paul boasted about them in his epistle to them, Smyrna had not yet known Christ. Philippians was written around 62-63 A.D., so this throws a major wrench into a pre-70 A.D. date for the book of Revelation.
The Christian chronicler Hegesippus wrote around 150 A.D. that John was exiled to Patmos under the reign of Domitian (who reigned between 81 and 96 A.D.), and this was common knowledge among the early and later church. Also for this and more see 'A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs' put together by David Bercot, which compiles a collection of ante-Nicene church fathers and what they believed on over 700 topics. Missing from early church history is the belief that Jesus returned in 70 A.D. invisibly or any significance to the pre-70 A.D. dating of Revelation.
Also, a fallacious argument that is often used by the preterist position is that if John wrote Revelation in the mid-90's A.D. then he most certainly would have mentioned the destruction of Jerusalem some two and a half decades prior. But why would he? Revelation is a prophetic book about the future, not a history book. In the very first verse of chapter one it says Revelation is to show God's servants what WILL take place, not what has ALREADY taken place. And the Greek word from which 'shortly' is translated means quickly, speedily. In other words, when it happens it won't take a long time to finish. But how long is long? Are we looking at this from man's perspective or God's? Preterism takes man's perspective, by arguing that the Greek word τάχος, tachos, can only mean a short time after John received the vision on Patmos. But what does Scripture say? A day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. God is not bound by man's expectations. See 2 Peter 3 and Psalm 90. Jesus WILL return again, but unfortunately thanks to preterism there are people in the church (partial-preterists, that is, and not full preterists who serve a completely different Jesus) who will not be looking for Him.
But "a day : thousand years" has absolutely nothing to do with this debate. You are knowledgeable! But you know what I typed is true.
Johnny there are good scholars that have good reason to believe it is pre-70AD. Internal evidence is probably the strongest, that being the judgement written about "The Harlot" "The Great City" "spirit Babylon" being the *city that killed our Lord* hadn't been judged at the time Revelation was written.
@@Ben-qb4lj 1000 years to us is a day to the Lord. God lives outside of our time not in it. I don't understand your point but thats what that means.
"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein" Rev 11:1 That temple was destroyed in 70 ad and the author was telling him to measure it? Revelation had to be written before 70ad.
@@billhesford6098 "That temple was destroyed in 70 ad and the author was telling him to measure it? Revelation had to be written before 70ad."
This is a woefully misinformed view on the temple in Revelation because it fails to take into account the fact that when you look at all of the passages that speak of the temple, there's no possible way this is referring to the 2nd temple.
First off, it lacks sound reasoning because Ezekiel was also shown a temple starting in Ezekiel 40 after the first temple had already been destroyed, and a temple was being measured. It clearly wasn't the first temple since it was already destroyed, but applying the the preterist version of reasoning one would have to say that this vision had to have been received while the first temple still stood. This was shown to Ezekiel 25 years into captivity (ch 40, verse 1). He went into exile around 597 B.C., and the first temple was destroyed in 586 B.C.
Take an honest reading of Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 14:15, 14:17, 15:5, 16:1, 16:17.
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.'- Rev 3:12
Is Jesus saying that those who overcome will literally become pillars in the 2nd temple? Obviously not. What about metaphoric pillars in the 2nd temple? And what about He shall go out no more? New Jerusalem? Clearly this is not set in the earthly Jerusalem.
'“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.' from Rev 7:14-15
Those who went through the Great Tribulation are all here literally serving God round the clock in the 2nd temple in Jerusalem? Even if they were to all fit, which they wouldn't, you need to take into account just where they all come from as it says in verse 9.
'After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands' Rev 7:9
ALL nations, ALL tribes, ALL peoples, ALL languages. This was not in the first century A.D., because the Neronic persecution was centered in Rome. It did not extend even to all parts of the Roman Empire, let alone outside of it.
'And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”' Rev 14:15
Was this angel literally coming out of the 2nd temple? Please look up each reference and study them. How were these definitely not referring to the 2nd temple but in Revelation 11 somehow it was? Have you even read chapter 11 in its entirety?
Rev 11:1 "Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the TEMPLE OF GOD, the altar, and those who worship there." (emphasis added)
and from Rev 11:19 "Then the TEMPLE OF GOD was opened IN HEAVEN, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple." (emphasis added again)
The scene was set in Heaven, not the earthly Jerusalem. The ark of the covenant was lost after the Babylonian destruction of the first temple in 586 A.D., which enough all by itself to poke a giant hole through this preterist interpretation in Revelation! This was in no way, shape, or form referring to the 2nd temple in earthly Jerusalem.
The first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy was written by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter Reformation.Moses Stuart noted that Alcasar's preterist interpretation was of considerable benefit to the Roman Catholic Church during its arguments with Protestants,[3] and preterism has been described in modern eschatological commentary as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy.[4] (copied)
Futurism is a Jesuit invention to hide the common precept that the pope at any time is the antichrist
Preston needs to learn more. The only 1 out of 3 parts of the Law that was abolished was the sacrificial Law. Jesus made the perfect sacrifice. It was prophecied that the temple would be destroyed. Ceremonial law is still to be observed by all Israelites and converts. That's why paul, say if you circumcised you must fulfill ALL the Law. But The moral Law (10 commandments) are FOR EVER!! If the 10 Commandments are abolished, we can sin all we want bc nothing condemns us. 10 Commandments and grace go hand and hand. Dr. Brown doesn't obey Sabbath, hes wrong! He's a Christian not Messianic. In the Millennium everyone will obey 10 commandments and 3 feast that men must come sacrifice to Jesus or they get no rain. GOD doesn't change his mind. Nor his Laws nor decrees. I go to a Penticostal church but since I came to Christ, I still don't work on Shabbat, try not to lie, steal, covet, ect. Why? Bc Jesus (Yeshua) said, if you love me Obey my commandments. And HE placed them in my heart. Not religiously, but bc of love for what he did for me! Peace.
Lol... Preston needs to learn more, huh?
Tell me this, is the law “though shall not steal” a moral law OR a civil law?
Or I could ask it this way - is the law “thou shall not steal” a moral law and therefore NOT civil or ceremonial?
The way you are categorizing/separating things above you must say it’s either one or the other. You’ve only demonstrated your ignorance of this and your ignorance of Prestons position. These are not 3 explicitly seperate categories that scripture defines to seperate the law as being manifold. Scripture is clear THE LAW is one, not manifold. These are simply 3 terms theologians use to understand different uses of different commands within the Law. The command “thou shall not steal” IS BOTH moral and civil having both moral and civil penalties/penalties before God and penalties before fellow man.
The Pharisees thought they were righteous by following the law. Jesus clearly called them out on their hypocrisy. And you think you can do it?
Absolutely blows my mind how people like Mr Preston ignore verses that contradicts what they believe. This video is a prime example of that behavior. All you can do is leave people like this alone, off in their corner and let them entertain themselves.
Maybe. Which verse?
Thank you, Dr. Brown, for sticking up for the truth. Dr. Preston and his followers will find out the truth soon enough! They forget the Peter said
2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. Have not seen that yet! I guess that is spiritual. They like to pick and choose what is spiritual and what is literal.
This may describe them!
2 Peter 2:17-22
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity-for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Ironically, those verses are talking about Israel. The covenant wife God had to finally divorce.
Wow...Dr. Preston, you need to be born of the Spirit of the living God, and then filled with that Holy Spirit, because that is the only way you will ever see Jesus, and apprehend who and what He is; the cross of Christ Jesus is not a concept, it is a place we go, humbled before God, and that is where His grace is poured out. Your intellect is your prison, and one day you could be judged for that....God sees the proud from afar, but draws close to the humble.