Belgian GP Talking Points - PU Penalties and Massive Speed
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- Опубліковано 30 сер 2022
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Verstappen dominated, everyone in the world took engine penalties, Mercedes faultered and Lewis boffed a Spaniard.
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Ferrari at the 1st half of the season: Horrible strategy, great car…
Ferrari at the 2nd half: Ummm…
Ferrari at this point is just Williams with delusions of grandeur. The only thing they gave going for them is their history, and there isn't a Historian's Championship.
@@tjenadonn6158 I feel like it is a trend, Ferrari winning championships. Remember when Ferrari fans waited an eternity from 1983 to 1999 for Ferrari to win any championship, I think we’re at the stage of 1991, good car, horrible everything else…
@@tjenadonn6158
At this rate, their F1-75 will be in the 2023 Monaco Historique LOL
@@bukharijabarazman2700 I've been saying that for ages.
Question?
"Ferrari attempted to play silly buggers" could just be your season review.
Brilliant 👏
I mean they kinda did the opposite when you look at the season as a whole. Build a really fast car and then drive it with no strategy at all.
Edit: What I mean is it's the opposite of being too clever and cheeky. Just incredibly stupid and unimaginative.
They didn't just attempt to play silly buggers. They were silly buggers.
I expect that Hamilton would have been penalised if he were still in the race, but they just didn't deem it severe enough to give a grid penalty
He deserved some penalty points imo. No other penalties needed as he retired anyway and Alonso continued, but it should have been stated clearly who was at fault here.
@@AndreSomers I agree with this. You shouldn't get away without licence points you would otherwise just because you retired or something bad happened to you, but there's precedence for it sadly
i think so aswell, and the first lap excuse was just a curated reason for them to handle it this way. I do think retirement (and possibly having to replace PU components due to the smash and take penalties at zandvoort) is enough of a punishment
I dunno, we've had some pretty questionable moves go unquestioned this season almost just because there wasn't any contact. Had both cars carried on happily I think they would have still called it as a racing incident.
@@jcskyknight2222 good point, perez at silverstone and again belgium forced people off a lot of times
8:52
No need to imagine it. Checo was quite disheartened at the result (you could see it and hear it during the interview afterwards) and I can't really blame him. Poor guy, but P2 is an amazing result despite having no significant actions on track except during the start. He was cruising on his own himself, though not as chill as Max.
His strategy was rather ruined by Red Bull stopping him early to hold up Leclerc (and how endearing it is that they thought the Ferraris posed any threat), but the team won't really care. They got a dominant one-two, and unfortunately Checo will just have to deal with that. It does hurt as a Checo fan, but then again, if it wasn't for Red Bull he wouldn't have a seat in F1 at all anymore, so I can put up with it.
@@rjfaber1991 Same bruh. I'm still thankful of RB for giving him a long chance but it doesn't diminish the sting in the heart that he is not of high priority. Though, they are very fortunate that he is such an amazing team player.
@@rjfaber1991 Okay, but he also couldn't do anything about Sainz, who was admittedly struggling on his tyres. Red Bull gets a lot of shit for giving Max the preferential treatment, but what team wouldn't? He gets the job done, and he got the job done here as well.
Checo has been competitive with Max on some circuits this year, that's about the best he can hope for. Similar to Bottas' old position at Merc but at least there's no pressure to beat Max.
@@rjfaber1991 his pace was shit at the first stint lol, he was suffering with deg
Technically, if Max, who has proven that he can win from lowly grid positions, then Red Bull can, in theory, have Max take a new PU component at EVERY race (or multiple) and still win both Championships…
At this point RB could have Max race on a fucking unicycle and still win both championships.
@@tjenadonn6158 Pain, that is, pain…
Well well well, then I guess it's not about the car when red bull's "golden boy" wins, that only applies to Lewis isn't it?
@@t.k3579 if we see 8 more years of red bull dominance like belgium and ppl are still say “its the driver” yea i think ppl will criticize
@@endreszentgyorgyi5270 That just tells you all about the double standard and hipocrisy of this sport's fanbase 😂
5:04 I don’t think that this is exactly the case, because the reason why Bottas started ahead of everyone with BOTG penalties was due to the PU and Gearbox penalties being seperate I think
I believe the "Back of the grid" designation is only for PU elements? That would explain why Bottas had a 20 place grid penalty instead of BOTG (+15 for PU, +5 for gearbox).
@@TheAmbition23 yea that’s my thinking but the example given was 15 places for PU and 3 places for blocking or causing a collision ect. , so that’s why I mentioned it
The spanish narration team said that the back of the grid penalization refers only to power unit penalizations, not other types of penalizations. So if you change your gearbox 4 times and get penalized 20 positions you won't be sent to the BotG. They said it was a formal error while writing the rules (it was in the PU part written) but it goes against the spirit of the rule, so very probably they will change for next year, if not for the netherlands
If we base our championship prediction on the average points per race scored so far by each driver, Max should win the title in Japan (so in 4 races with another 4 races to go).
To be more specific, out of the current 6 drivers other than Max who can still be champion:
- Leclerc and Perez would be the last ones out of the contention after Japan (so in 4 races)
- Carlos, George and Lewis would be out after Singapour (so in 3 races)
- Lando would be out after Zandvoort (so in 1 race)
The moment I heard crofty struggling with explaining penalties, I knew this needs a Chain Bear video.
Crofty struggles at explaining anything that does not involve British drivers.
6:16 this might be the most incomprehensible graph I have ever come across
Should see some of chain bear's thought experiments
pretty straightforward I thought, laptimes over lap count, colour coded lines denoting specific drivers, a gap during pitstops.
If a given drivers line is lower on any given lap he's going quicker, each gap shows each stint very separately and shows the drivers average laptimes relative to another very clearly and also makes the laptime decrease as fuel burns off very apparent.
He's usually pretty clear, but this one was really way off
I'm always impressed by your recreation of events given not being allowed to show footage! The top-down of HAM-ALO is top notch! The GOAT F1 UA-camr, ladies and gentlemen!
Penalties used to be far sillier, remember Jenson Button at Belgium in fact being sent to the back of the grid THEN needing to immediately take a drive through to make up for the grid penalties he couldn’t take!
Or scenes of the race starting and cars sitting stationary on the grid for timed penalties because they had more penalties than grid slots available. Not sure which "Genius" at the FIA thought that was a good idea.
I don't understand why it is quite easy at Spa and they say that it's difficult at Monza.
I mean Monza also is easier to overtake
Power track right.
So why does he say Q. hard for Monza
Always love watching your videos after a grand prix weekend keep up the good work
Hey Chain Bear, just wanted to say thanks for consistently creating thoughtful, informative, and well-presented F1 videos!
Ferrari when double stack to secure an easy 1-2 finish: stay out!
Ferrari when pit for the fastest lap with high risk low reward: box box!
10:35 That chart is quite revealing, shows just how important downforce through the 2nd sector given that Albon was quite a way behind Sainz in qualifying, and even further behind Verstappen and Lecerlc.
But more significantly look at the gap from Albon to Latifi - Williams definitely need to find someone new for that second seat.
I was chatting with friends as we watched the race and we didn't know this: What action may the team's mechanics take on the ICE between races WITHOUT incurring a penalty? Rings? Bearings? Disassemble, inspect, & reassemble? Change fluids? Clean lubricant & coolant pathways?
I suspect complete disasemblies, as measuring wear and tear directly is probably very valuabld
I believe they can't do anything to the engines, short of changing fluids, once in use. I recall reading that the engines are effectively sealed and can't be opened up.
@@Hoffmann604 so the limited power unit thing has nothing to do with bringing costs down then or its just incompetent rules
@@kingofgar101 well, using 4-5 pu in a season is still cheaper than using 10+ ...
It's a Ship of Theseus problem. How many and what parts do you allow them to change out before it's a new engine. NO ONE wants to deal with regulations around that, not FIA figuring out what's okay and what's not, and not teams who will have to do what racing teams do and look for loopholes to use "1" engine all year
Since there is a grid penalty for replacing PU components, is there also one for other components...for example all of the Ferrari strategists?
I really liked this video. Nice, clear explanations!
I would like you guys to consider talking about the G forces readings during a crash. Mercedes is talking about 45G for Hamilton in Spa 2022, but it looks too little of an accident when compared to the 50G crash Vertappen underwent in Silverstone 2021.
Keep the hard work! 💪
I'm not even a huge fan and I just don't see how Max isn't the next Michael Schumacher. His pace was just unreal. He makes no mistakes. His quali is always immaculate. He's like a terminator.
10:23 That's Raidillon actually.
I like your videos because when you talk words come out.
Still want to see you do a bit on why Albon did a race early in the season on just one set of tires (effectively) only stoping for the mandatory change on the very last lap.
Youre genious man!
Given that we now have a cost cap, is there much remaining need to keep these grid penalties for engine components? The logic in introducing maximum numbers of components and therefore penalties for taking extras was to reduce costs... but now we have a cost cap, so surely teams can now effectively be "trusted" to balance the cost of engine components with everything else to stay under the cost cap? ie. a team could decide to spend a bit extra on additional engine components at the expense of other areas. Thoughts?
This is an interesting point. But, I think audibility of introducing new engine components is far easier than tracking expenditures, even for the most trustworthy teams. It would seem to me that there's a lot more opportunity to game the cost cap system.
But without grid penalty for exceeding PU units, you can imagine that, say Ferrari 2.0, putting all resources into improving the pace rather than reliability. The tactic is so successful, that in 2023 they have an extremely fast package but only the PU is trash. They wouldn't need to bring any aero or suspension update, but they burn a PU every 5 race. This would be an issue for the whole grid, and other teams may follow suit. It would be bad for the environment and for real racing.
Also, teams must have been thinking about how to circumvent the budget cap or whatever. The grid penalty is so much easier to implement than the budget cap.
Also I’m pretty sure certain engine parts are excluded from the cost cap so things would have to be revised
These penalties give us mixed grids with drivers out of their place, wich leads to more interesting racing. I would remove them.
Also, 5 engines that last 1 race might be cheaper to develop and produce than an engine that last 5 races, so teams can't be trusted to not use expendable engines
Engines are not part of the cost cap. I don't know why it was decided this way, but that's why teams, like Mercedes last year, aren't afraid to buy 11 engines across the season.
4:58 That is not correct. The stewards explicitly clarified (in that same decision) that back of the grid penalties are excusively for power unit infractions
Well, to be honest, Max didn't need to take a new PU, they still have a pool of PUs, but decided to add a 4th to the mix to make sure they had enough to make it to the end of the season without another penalty, while also limiting their points loss of a grid drop at the best track to recover from. I think they nailed it. Charles is likely going to need another PU before the end of the season just to keep racing.
@5:11, they said specifically it only applies to PU penalties. Hence why Bottas did not go back of grid, even with 30 place Grid Penalty.
R.e. Alonso and Hamilton...
"Where's Hamilton?"
"He's out of the race."
*"Karma."*
great video as usual and love the animations and insight, only request is for a dark mode on the background ;)
It was interesting to hear Ferrari essentially doing their strategy clearly over the radio, and even asking Leclerc’s opinion on options, just sounded like a big change in approach after recent weeks but basically stops them from being able to surprise anyone
Came for the PU penalty explained stayed for the race debrief
"at the top of Eau Rouge"
That's Raidillon, actually.
Ferarri putting more time and effort into engine part strategy rather than race strategy.
I think with the Ham/Alo incident there is a precedent for a 5s time penalty in the current race, maybe a license point, rarely a grid drop for the following race as that happens more when the driving was blatantly dangerous and/or took out the other driver.
Given Hamilton retired, there was no way to apply a time penalty, and doing anything harsher would be unusually tough when Alonso still finished in the top 5 which is really as high as he would expect to get in a regular race.
Last year Bottas got a grid penalty after causing a crash in Hungary. Didn't take out verstappen but ruined his race
Very interesting video!!
But I'm curious, where are you getting all this data? If you could share that information, I would appreciate that :)
These graphics are so interesting
About the comment on 7:30, Ferrari's radio actually said that they thought he would come out in front of Alonso
He did..
I feel like max will be crowned champion in suzuka
I always find the excuse “he was in my blind spot” a bit lame. Putting a sonic sensor on the is cheap. Yes the light will come on when you hug the walls, but that should take about one weekend to get used to.
Honestly the FIA should be looking into this tech given that visibility is so shit on these cars now.
It's not perfect, but the mirrors certainly aren't either!
And then we could stop pretending the mirrors work for anything other than smoke or fire
Max Verstappen uses his "carving through the field" skill during the Renault days to the fullest extent here
That 2018 race at COTA was his best result from the back end of the grid up until this race. He nearly won from 16th or something like that without any safety cars or weird strategy calls by others. Just pure pace.
so if you re getting sent at the back of the grid anyway why not change everything on the car where you would get a penalty normally?
also, when exactly needs a car to start from the pitlane?
I still cannot BELIEVE they didn't close the loophole that you get punished less the more components you take. Merc showed the flaw in the rules perfectly last year and they still did nothing.
nice vid
Damn, if the fouth place finisher is that slow, the last five must be standing still :o
Came here to do some Tristan-from-Step-Back-History spotting. :)
The 5:00 bit is wrong, the >15 = back of the grid applies to PU and ONLY PU penalties, all other penalties are normal ones, no matter how many there end up being. As long as the PU penalties don't go over 15, it's not a back of the grid start no matter what.
5:15 I don't think that's accurate; Bottas had 15+5 grid penalties but they didn't add up to a back of the grid penalty because they were breaches of seperate rules iirc
9:57 that's raidillon actually
I just feel bad for the Ferrari mechanics who will have had to rebuild that PU 3 times, and then still get sent to the back
Brilliant video, is your favourite number still 38?
Where are the Ferrari debriefs those were so good
did chain bear just call raidillon, eau rouge?
Max needs 96 points from 7 races to wrap it up.
And he can technically win it in Italy given Perez and Leclerc retire and Max wins + FL
2:05
"...70 place grid penalties, which was very silly."
Not sure if this is sarcasm? In your 2018 video, it sounded like you prefered the old 2014-7 system...
Have you changed your mind, ChainBear?
Well the consensus was that it was very silly. I think both have their sillinesses but that's a natural outcome of penalities that add up beyond what's possible
Why can’t each penalty for a single part is the same not 10 or 5, and the driver with the most grid drops goes to the back, and if there is a tie on penalties, then fastest in quali gets to be in front?
To simply this , why not after a 20 place grid penalty u just start from the pit lane
I mean, you would still need to order the cars in the pit lane somehow, rather than standard pit lane start procedures, but it can work
Ferrari got to watch your videos, I'm sure they'll learn
Zho is my favourite driver
0:38 There no driver called "Zho", but there is a Chinese driver called "Zhou"
I'm curious if max can get to 14 wins. Its entirely possible with the form that RB and him have right now.
5:10 The more than 15 places counts only PU penalty so Gearbox and Driving penalties (what you used) would not count
I think they should increase the allowances of pu parts to 5. Then make the penalties more extreme eg: if you replace 1 part over your limit, you start from the pit lane. And make it so that you can’t take more than 1 part over your limit at once. If you replace 2 at once, you start from the pit lane in this and the following race. That will really incentivize teams to actually look after their parts but will also ensure it is possible. Now I feel teams just accept penalties are ‘part of the game’. It also prevents teams from replaying every single component at the same time because it currently has no additional penalty on them.
leclerc made a dumb mistake, he shouldve let alonso come out ahead out of the pits exit and overtake on the straight, but he came out in front so alonso had the overtake opportunity forcing leclerc to wait to the next lap
How do you explain Bottas's penalty then?
No video on new engine regulations?
Good morning!
I don't understand why merc didn't put Russell on the softs for the last stint. Max made that strategy work (starting on the soft instead of finishing). It was also the strategy that perelli recommended as the fastest strategy. It appeared they were quicker than ferrari. I believe that, if Hamilton hadn't have had a brain fart and smashed into alonso, he would have finished on the podium ahead of the ferraris
Monza hard to overtake?
3th 😂 3:48
0:38 I thought it's spelt ZHOU ... XD
it was refreshing to here hamilton admit his mistake. this is very rare, probably only leclerc is the only other driver who would do this. and to also shut down reporters trying to stir the drama from alonso pretty immature comment, also very refreshing.
Max will probably win the championship at Suzuka. Nice for Honda I suppose, even though the car doesn't have their badge on it.
Isn't this year Red Bulls engines made by Red Bull Power? Honda has transferred the team, tooling, IP everything to Red Bull. It is Red Bull who makes their own engines now. So there is no Honda name now.
@@catchnkill nope, Honda still supply engines to RB and AT.
@@catchnkill That was the plan, but it was later changed. Honda is still making the engines, but it's an RBPT branded engine. That deal will last until the end of 2025, before the new engine regulations.
@@orangepekoe7096 It is not the original plan I read last year. It should be an arrangement change this year to prepare for Porsche engine supply from 2026 onward. If Red Bull makes their own engine using Honda IP, it will be difficult to prevent Red Bull to leak some Honda engine secret to Porsche. It is better to let Honda to make engines now.
@@catchnkill If you look at the RB18 there's a small HRC Honda Racing logo at the back of the "coke bottle" near the rear exhaust. This is because the PU is still actually 100% Honda, even if the Honda board of directors has decided to keep it low key. 🤷
Is Checo even going to get to be Eddie Irvine?
The recorded Max speeds.........
Not all penalties accumulate - see Bottas' +20...
Italians being Italians - I don't blame them, I'm Greek - instead of doing extra work in the summer break, they went to the sea. When they came back at Spa, their minds were still at the sea, so here we are. They were always like this except the years of "working in fear" of Todt. Also, Elkann's mentality is kinda "corporate", totally in contrast of Old Man's and his heir Luca Di Montezemolo's racing mentality. Maybe I'm wrong but this is the feeling I get for the last 10-12 years of Ferrari racing (and manufacturing).
Then you have Merc busting their asses over the break and having nothing to show for it. At least the Ferrari folks got a real break...
Come on mate, spell Zhou's name right. (Constructive feedback, love your work!)
He doesn’t deserve it.
@@ColtAlabama Why that Clot Abalama?
Yeah, especially since he manages Zhou in F1 Manager 2022!
I don’t get why they didn’t change every component at once for Verstappen. In for a penny
Almost certainly related to cost cap, inventory, development, or all of the above
Do you write your own subtitles?
Are power unit component limits even necessary any more now that there is a cost cap in F1? Why not let the teams make as many as they can afford within the budget - potentially as an alternative to producing upgrades if necessary.
It is clear by now that, even if Ferrari hadn't botched so many strategic moves, or if Leclerc hadn't made the mistakes he made, even then Leclerc would have had no chance against Verstappen this year. It is important to remember that, whenever Leclerc won, Verstappen finished a close second, that is except when the Red Bull broke down early in the season. In the best of circumstances Leclerc wouldn't come close to matching Verstappen as Hamilton did last year. So, is this the beginning of another Red Bull dominance as it happened between 10 and 13? For all of us hoping for level racing and excitement with all the changes in F1, it would be a bummer, especially after so many years of Mercedes dominating. My hope is for Mercedes to come up with a great car next year, so Hamilton and Russell can put up a descent fight, because Ferrari is a hopeless case.
Bahrain? Maybe. In Australia Leclerc absolutely dominated Verstappen (everyone really), and without a DNF for Verstappen and without the safety car, Leclerc was predicted to beat Verstappen by 20 seconds in P2. Perez in P3 was predicted at 50 seconds. In Austria Verstappen had nothing on Leclerc, who overtook him 3 times. The only reason it was close at the end was because the Ferrari was breaking down all on its own.
The Red Bull speed (especially of Verstappen) at Spa was insane. But Spa is a power circuit. Zandvoort is not. If Red Bull dominates at Zandvoort as well, then yeah, there was never a championship fight this year to begin with. But I will wait until the Dutch Grand Prix is over to state whether Ferrari had any real chance this year or not (ignoring the fact they always fuck up regardless how good a car or driver they have, ofc.).
@@danielkristiansen2298 Ferrari and Charles definitely had a chance this year without any DNFs.
Max lost 36 points to Charles in his DNFs. Charles lost 32 (to Max) at Spain, at a minimum 18 at Baku (P2), another 18 at France (P2), 7 points at Imola, 16 points (to Max) at Monaco and another 13 points at Silverstone. That's 104 points lost vs 36 for Max. Charles would, at a minimum be pretty close points wise.
If he won either Baku or France he'd gain another 14 points on Max, and if he won both he'd literally be about equal in points depending on FLs.
How did bottad get away with his grid penalties?
It's explained incorrectly in the video. The back of the grid penalties are for power unit components only. Bottas had 15 places for PU components and 5 for a gearbox change, so a 20 place penalty not a back of the grid penalty.
Charles championship ended in France
if less than 10 laps remaining when safety car is called, then do a red flag and grid start.
I feel like Engine Penalties should mainly be on the constructors , like automatic points deduction for over allowances
What about introducing a system with the new regs, that restricts the budget further for any part replaced more often than allowed?
@@valentinjakob2109 I feel like that would be way to confusing for everybody, a nice simple x number of points would be straightforward that people could understand, they have restrictive budget caps, but I dont think they have line item budget caps, do they?
lol bottom teams are gonna end up with like -20 points then
@@asdjkhasdhjasd that's why I suggested sth slightly different... But I also see that it's of course pretty complex...
I think this would only work if there was a engine manufacture world championship
@@asdjkhasdhjasd right now only the tops teams are getting penalized, and its is basically no penalty to them if they can just move back up the field and win first anyway, if haas got a penalty they would just be in the back where they were anyway
If the point of a penalty is to curb the actions of the teams, it is not working right now. The penalty is so small that it is better to take the penalty than to not
I think Leclerc has got away with multiple errors this year, as Ferrari has got most of the stick. But speeding in the pit lane combines with a crash in France now. He deserves some criticism
He ended up speeding in the pit lane because the tear off from Max that got stuck in his brake duct and caused him to have to pit early ALSO fried a sensor necessary for the pit limiter to work properly. Truly rotten luck (not that he had any chance of winning the race, he just could have had a cleaner race and placed higher). He also didn't want to make that pitstop but Ferrari strategy overruled him.
15 is not more than 15
Ah yes, the floor is made out of floor.
eau rouge is on the bottom not top.
I want to see if max can win from last place
It IS a massive blunder by Ferrari, just like the fresh tyres to tow Sainz. That team is about to implode. And for their own sake, they better implode fast.
Ferrari is a team with so much success over the years that they feel able to give some away this year.
Hear me out about grid penalties because of power unit changes: time penalty.
Give everyone like +20 seconds for a new ICE, MGUs, or Turbo as a cumulative penalty and carry that penalty to the race as well.
DT are you here?
VER pace was so terrifying that made the GP a bit boring. thankfully Ferrari clowns circus saved the day
Still some fun mid field action for Vettel, Albon, and Ocon.
luckily to be unpenalized? ham was clearly in front at the apex.
Correct and he also clearly turned into alonso who had already given him the entire track worth of space he caused the collision and had enough common sense to admit it yet still some of his fans are delusional enough to think he wasn’t in the wrong
Where is my F1 manager ? :))) much need please
Honestly don’t see much need for Hamilton to get a penalty. The point of penalties is to discourage behavior and encourage caution, and considering he’ll most likely need a new PU now, and had to retire, he got plenty of natural consequence. And it’s not like he really hurt Alonso’s race
Ferrari fumbling is not even funny anymore.
It's funny in a sad way, not funny in a funny way. We're at the stage where comedy transitions to dark comedy, before it transitions into just being dark.
Why verstappen got p14? Shouldn't it be p15 coz six had penalties and 5 below him would put him at 15. Why p14?
Tsunoda started from the pit lane
Having Monza as harder than Singapore for overtaking seems wrong to me
Q. Hard I think stands for 'quite hard', so it would be easier to overtake at Monza than at Singapore.
It's not really that much harder. Monza sees 41 overtakes on average since 2010, Marina Bay has around 39.