You’re like the only person I’ve seen address this honestly. People talk about how the game now has more individual playmaking but nothing is killable with no concept of choice or error on either side
Thank you for taking notice. I got kind of tired of people not asking the right questions so i decided to address them myself. glad to see it's resonating with some people such as yourself!
I agree. I don't know what they were thinking with kiriko or lifeweaver. I love playing ashe because she has so many options. Coach gun can boop people off the map, boop me back to safety, up to high ground, do damage for finishing a kill, or set the enemy up for a scoped shot. That one ability has more options than kiriko or lifeweaver's entire kit lol. Sometimes it's hard to believe the same people make these characters, some are so amazing and some are so awful.
11:16 I love jq and anytime I have ult and they have a kiri I think about this, I literally can't ult until they suzu cause if I don't wait I go in and die cause she cleanses all my bleeds not to mention she cleansed all my antiheal so my team cant even follow up
I think immortality should only block a certain amount of damage. Like say it blocks up 100/150 damage per shot, so if you’re getting hit by most primary fires and abilities, you won’t take damage. But if you get hit by major damage, say Dva Bomb,, you’ll take that damage minus the 100 or whatever from immortality. So most players will still die when their opponent uses their biggest damage resources,, but it still has use from saying teammates from minor damage. idk.
you know i never thought about it in that way. a percentage damage reduction is the first thing that comes to mind but i'd be really curious if it was possible to test and see how it feels if it negated just a small set of damage. that would provide a much smaller window of escape and feel less overpowered than just resetting lets say a tanks low health to full in a second. this is a really interesting and good idea.
I was a Winston main for a very long time in OW2. I've recently gone over to maining support to fill a role in my scrim team because I just couldn't hack tanking anymore. Every time I think of playing Winston I'm sad about his state. I love him, still my favorite hero, but he just suffers so badly in the current patch. I can say that Winston, one of the purportedly "fun", "honest", "fair, or "healthy" heroes, suffers greatly from 1-dimensional counters to him. However, the majority of the 1-dimensional heroes he suffers from are NOT supports. He mainly suffers from Hog, Mauga, Bastion, and Torb. I generally don't count Reaper or Queen because they have enough limitations to exploit as a Winston. But what are the 1-dimensionalities being suffered from? very tanky (practically unkillable with supports pocketing them) and abilities that really only have a use to react to a proactive tank. Mauga and Bastion just sit there and wait for you to go in and try to do something, then they both hit their abilities and blow you away with DPS you can never hope to match or stand in for even a second. Essentially, as a Winston, when they hit their buttons, I can't play the game for 6 whole seconds, or just die. How can Mauga and Bastion be seen to be anything other than 1-dimensional? Now you may argue that Bastion doesn't do all that well and his WR is low. I might come back and say its because he is 1-dimensional, and that as soon as he's up against a tank that doesn't have to be proactive, he suffers greatly. In other words, I swap from Winston to Orisa, Mauga, Ram or Sig and I've countered the Bastion. But really, should it be that severe that either Bastion or Winston have to suffer in matchups like that? Supports are not the only role with 1-dimensional kit designs.
There are 1 dimensional other heroes too and I've made other videos talking about them but supports and immortalies are what I focus on because they're the biggest offenders. Especially in those instances with mauga and bastion because if you did manage to get them low as Winston and they are saved by Suzu there's legit nothing you can do but switch. Mauga and bastion might need addressing but things like Suzu make counter picking even more prevalent because it turns difficult tasks into impossible ones.
Yeah I agree. There are plenty of other heroes that aren't supports that suffer from being extremely dull and 1-dimensional. The only reason supports get the spotlight is because their cooldowns have the most value in comparison to how easy they are to do.
idk why someone people think ana is easier than kiri all that ana can do better in a 1v1 is stun her self heals are worse she can't escape anything and can't 2 tap a ton of heroes in the game super quickly
I don't get it either. Ana has strong abilities but she's non mobile and has to have perfect positioning. she also uses those abilities a lot making her vulnerable. kiri has damage, high mobility, range, better duel potential, immortality she gets to hold, and one of the best ults in the game. she actually has no weaknesses. even taking a duel with her is stupid because she just tp's away. i never understood people complaining about ana's nade when it's never even registered to me as an issue in comparison to kiri.
@@arinrobinson3898she doesn’t heal enough, does dual that well unless she’s burning suzu or up against 225 heroes. She doesn’t peel her other support that well either so they have to be very passive or survivable. She isn’t that strong right now. Once again tracer your main is significantly more toxic 😂
@@bennettstokes195 1. win rates are a bad metric in which to critique a characters design in the same way that looking at the scorecard in game to determine who is contributing most. 2. kiri heals more than enough for what her kit allows her to do and her healing isn't the frustrating part of her kit but it is the most boring. suzu which is an incredibly frustrating and easy to use ability can literally turn fights around and she frequently gets two in one fight. 3. i am a tracer main but i have gotten to the same rank on every role using different heroes. my first time ever playing kiriko i got to GM in 3 hours. however, i am also fair in admitting tracer benefitted greatly from season 9 projectile changes as well as the dps passive. both things i am adamantly against. the reason why tracer is such a threat is because other heroes do not have the tools to fight back. which is why in this video i explain how to do that and why it should be done with other heroes. 1 dimensional abilities limit not just the people dealing with them but also how people using them can play. 4. kiri is still one of the best duelists in the game that takes the least amount of risk and if you now how to play the game is super easy. i don't get where you're saying she can't peel unless you miss time suzu or can't hit your shots. her kit is only hard for those who do not understand positioning and or when to use their abilities because it's designed in a way that makes it very easy to do the wrong thing like tp'ing into someone you know is already dead. her win rate, which people such as yourself like to cite, is low because of this fact. 5. her winrate could 40% and suzu would still be unfun and frustrating. as pointed out in the video. i swear kiri mains are so excited to speak in comments while having not paid attention at all or watched any of the many videos I've made explaining it.
@@arinrobinson3898 1. the winrate at all levels including gm is low, for me I usually use just masters and Gm. As long as the character has a decent pick rate, the winrate should be indictive of their meta relevance. for kiri she's often picked, and often loses. 2. Suzu is very powerful, and pretty annoying to play against, but as long as her heals are suffeciently weak it is required to keep her team from dying. this prevents it from being held up for ults constantly. in most fights she will be forced to burn it. 3. Kiri isn't very interactive. her escape ability is very very strong, making her impossible to punish. She herself can be punished but that's usually her making a mistake into someone rather than her not having the tools to escape. The reason I bring up tracer is because the overwatch old heads don't seem to realize tracer isn't interactable. the things that can kill tracer are very similar to the things that can kill kiri, but when they land thats usually because kiri didnt suzu or tp, and the same is true for tracer. yes you can hit the sleep on tracer (usually doesn't kill) but thats because she miss used her blinks. the control is all in the tracer/kiri. I think it's okay to say characters need to be interactable, but be consistant. I also think theres an arguement that they don't, that tracer is fine the way she is, aside from being overtuned, and likewise kiri is fine because she herself is not overtuned right now. 4. she can't peel enough right now. she can't usually be played with zen or juno, and rarely be played with ana, those are the fragile backliners that I was refering to 5. suzu is annoying I agree, but its not that hardto play around in its current state. lamp is far worse as is pull. Suzu can and often is used as a source of healing in a way lamp and pull basically never are.
I got a lot of questions about what people think all around about OW currently mainly cause I want to “Get Gud” again and don’t really understand what the devs were cooking
You hit the nail on this... I literally get a panick attack thinking of OW's problems because it's literally just design flaws that could easily be adressed if it wasn't for blizzards monetization efforts (appeal to lower skill player, they buy skins cus they have a job, game ruined for everyone else). My brain still remembers the pre-brig/bap era and it hurts.
I've watched a few of your videos and you have valid and objective points. My friend and I often have interesting ideas as we play and something we thought could be interesting was if Lifeweaver had his pull work both ways as it does in Devil May Cry. So it could pull teammates towards you but you could also make the decision to pull yourself to your teammates position instead. It's disappointing that your ideas and thoughts are so poorly received but I suppose it's to be expected. This is the internet after all and you're obviously no stranger to it I'm sure. I've appreciated everything you've put out so far and hope you continue to share your thoughts and opinions as they're quite insightful and refreshing. There seem to only be discussions about balance and little about game "feel" as you've put it . I love depth and complexity but there likely is an element of accessibility in how these heroes are designed in order to bring in a larger player base as well so there's that to consider too. Look forward to seeing more of your content in the future!
omg this comment actually makes me so happy! I want all my videos to be related to game feel and design over perfect balance and it makes me happy to see some people are understanding it. players will play an unbalanced game that feels good over a perfectly balanced one that feels bad which is why it's something i'm so passionate about. I could talk about video games and design for hours. also i never thought about that with lifeweaver but that's a really good idea and already offers him more choice than he does now. i imagine it would be as simple as pressing E to select someone and left or right click to pull to you or go to them. i wonder if that would feel like too many consecutive button presses but otherwise it sounds good on paper and i think is worth a try. there is a fine balance of overwatch with it's accessibility and it's one thing i always need to keep in mind better because i am that fast action paced high skill kind of gamer. there's a lot of hate from some people that think i'm just trying to get their favorite supports nerfed even though i'm not but it's ok. in terms of likes on my videos even though it's not many it's still like 85%-90% like ratio so i think that's pretty good for me. I've had a growth of like 240 subs in the last two months so that's really good for me! i'm not trying to do any clickbaity videos or anything. i just love talking game design so hopefully the right people find me and it looks like it's working if you did! i really appreciate your comment and will try to keep coming up with more ideas for videos thank you!
I think Lifeweaver's core identity is that of a strategist who helps plans things out for their team and sets them up while he assists in the background. I think of Pull as an ability you use to help your dps escape to a different angle/flank and that's why it didn't have heal on it initially, but I think the way they went about doing changes and buffs to him post release were largely in the wrong direction until a couple seasons ago like the automatic charge heal that has been suggested since a week into his launch. I call it tankweaver because they just tried to make him viable by giga buffing his healing, when in reality the only weakness he ever had was that they tried to make him like mercy but his projectile speed was too slow. 40 clip with like 80~ projectile speed is likely the kind of weapon they should have went for, a strong burst of damage at close to mid or mid-long range but takes too long for him to actively DPS like a bap or illari might. So, I think they should've buffed his projectile speed on thorn volley and buffed his dash, either reducing it's cooldown or giving it more range primarily, but some of the other buffs they gave him were good too I think. I think any idea that removes petal or pull entirely is the wrong direction for his potential. Lifeweaver is an inherently creative character focused on creativity held back by now being properly enabled to do creative things with his tools all that often. He's designed to be an off-healer, but tankweaver tried making him a main-healer, but that's the worst direction to go. Lifeweaver being a giga healbot is the least fun version of his character.
Sombra was my DPS main for quite a while and a huge complaint from people was that she can completely cancel an ult with just a normal ability. My counterargument to that was that it was a risk and could also be easily interrupted. It did take some skill to predict an ult, be in range, be in a safe spot, and have hack off cooldown. Still, I understand how it was (well, is) frustrating to people. But now you have Kiriko who can essentially cancel the effects of virtually ALL ults with zero risk. There's virtually no way to interrupt it like there is with Sombra and her positioning is practically irrelevant. Why do we not have the same (it really should be greater, imo) outrage?
i can admit sombra had some cheesy parts of her kit but yeah, in comparison to the support roster i had no issue with that. even if sombra was perma invis in the back she was very useless most of the time. even if she did pop up and you just immediately turn on her she would die. she still also had to hit her virus to secure kills anyway. meanwhile i had a game where my zarya landed a 5 man grav that i pulsed and one suzu stopped all of it and since it was high elo she wasn't going to waste the suzu early so i had to pulse to force it so hopefully my team could follow up. we couldn't and lost the fight. there was no skill with that suzu and it countered 2 ults no problem. there was so much healing and mitigation that we couldn't do anything despite pumping as much damage as we could into it. the only solution was get all 5 people to focus as much as possible and that's not good game play. for some reason the support role is babied and never receives the same kinds of reworks or nerfs. kiri gets nerfed for maybe two weeks before they buff her again every time. every single game i play in i see a kiri without fail. people talk about her winrate but if her winrate is so bad and she's so weak and hard to play then why is she in 90% of my games?
@@arinrobinson3898 Yes! Completely agree with all of this. In fact, here's my take on healing in general, maybe a hot take: pocketing should be "impossible." Basically, imo healing should only serve to get you back to health when you're positioned properly or MAYBE give you a few extra moments in an aggressive yet still smart position. If you're out of position, no amount of healing except for maybe a support ult should be able to save you. Imo, supports should have to struggle to keep anyone alive so that their role is centered on having to wisely choose who to let die and who to help live. They should have to triage like real medics lol. The whole reason for the increased hitboxes was because Blizzard recognized that hitting stuff is fun...but I would argue that KILLING stuff is the actual fun. Hitting stuff that never dies is NOT fun. Especially when you had to take risks to do it and then the tables are turned on you. I'm not saying it needs to be like Valorant, but securing kills should be priortized over long team fights. You mentioned seeing pull or suzu twice in one fight. At my elo (plat/diamond) the fights are often long enough that you see those abilities even more often. And it's hecka frustrating. And, ngl, I too have been on the other end where I'm asking myself, "Why the heck am I not dead yet??" as I'm getting avalanched with damage.
@@danielmccloe2237 I'm so happy to see someone finally understanding what I've been getting at. you're right, hitting stuff isn't fun, killing things is fun and season 9 was not the helpful change people think it was. it was just a change that lost novelty rather quick. long team fights aren't great if it's frustrating. i would like to see the game go back to being about securing kills rather than taking 6000 damage for 4 kills. the healing is just too high, the ways to deny are too high, the easy 1 dimensional abilities are too many. it's not to say overwatch doesn't have great points about it, it does, it's just that these other things are taking away from the fun so much so it pushes players like tanks away.
i get sick of needing ana and kiriko to play the game. every game has an ana, so you HAVE to kiri. i think anti should be changed to function differently. make it so anti can be healed off, but applies no healing to the anti'd hero until it is fully healed away. this would mean it would be ineffective to passive heal it off with mercy beam or lucio passive heal, but instead would require a cooldown to be spent to remove the effect. lucio amp, or moira orb, combo of illari beam and turret. each character would have a different level of effectivness in cleansing, but at least they can do it.
It would be interesting if it was changed from no healing to reduced healing. I do also wonder with how out of control healing has been how that makes anti nade so much more valuable and if we ton the healing down how much it wouldn't seem like a must have.
@@arinrobinson3898 i think they would have to try it, but i think reduced healing takes away too much from anti. anti best use is when an enemy is low a well timed well aimed cooldown ability allows that enemy to be taken out of the fight.
Ow peaked at 3 dps winston lucio zen meta and its been downhill since then. What happened to supports not making things invincible? What happened to getting punished for mistakes or getting rewarded for good plays? Tank isnt fun when you lose in 5v5. Mauga/orisa/hog widow/sombra kiri/bap/lw overwatch would be so better without these characters. Doom/mei/venture/brig also quite problematic but idk
Kiriko isn’t god. If she’s played with another flex support, the support duo is much, much easier to kill when (if) you get on them(no boops, no speeds, heals can be blocked by shields) If she’s played with a main support (read: pretty much only lucio), her team has better angle control (hence why we see tracer players mald when their 1v1s get made into 2v1s) but that also means their tank actually can die much more easily. There’s a reason why she’s not picked in pro play and Juno+Brig is dominant, she just isn’t that good, she just feels like shit to play against when you’re playing a flanker. When she’s putting her attention on ruining your day, someone else on your team is winning because they don’t have to deal with her util, but no one actually cares about the team’s success, because everyone wants to see the little red skull on their screen and the ticky white crosses (understandable, that shit is satisfying asf)
bringing up juno+brig as an argument to say kiriko isn't strong when she's been constantly picked before that isn't the argument you think it is. juno is incredibly over tuned at the moment which is why teams are built around her in mind. this is like saying Ram was weak in season 8 cause mauga was released. it's not even a fair comparison when your baseline is the new broken hero. it doesn't matter how weak or strong kiriko is she will always be unfun to play against and create a 1 dimensional gameplay problem hence the video. the game shouldn't revolve around getting suzu out first before players get choices on how to play. people keep ignoring the whole point i'm getting at. also it's not just as a flanker, i hate seeing her as tank or any other role. i hate her, i hate lifeweaver, i hate bap, and it doesn't matter what role or hero i'm playing these heroes are frustrating to play against and that is a problem. the same arguments people make to defend kiri could have been used to defend sombra but she got destroyed into the ground. she wasn't dominating games but she was frustrating to play against. so if we can change sombra because she wasn't healthy for the game then we can change kiri too.
@ Okay, but how is forcing suzu unfun? I usually take my fights pretty carefully, lowkey lickin my lips like daring the Kiriko to show up. Like, sometimes it ruins a play, but like, it’s unfun for one person- and like, your team still benefits. Finding creative ways to force out suzu without blowing big cooldowns is interesting and pretty engaging- and there always is room for error- like, if I were to take a winning duel with the expectation that a Kiriko is going to swoop in, and she doesn’t? Free kill, thanks. While the objective is to force suzu, it’s far from one dimensional- you’ve got options to pressure frontline, flank and find backline, or get on her yourself. Unless you’re playing against a really good Kiriko, eventually they’re going to mess up juggling who and who not to suzu, and that’s when you eat the cdless kiri (or her team) alive. It forces you to actually think and layer your gameplan, which, at least to me, is pretty damn fun. Additionally, her lack of a boop really frees up dive tanks to actually jump in without getting smacked away, if she’s paired with a support without boops, not sure if I said that but if I didn’t, that gives you yet another avenue to either force suzu or get a kill
@ I guess to sum up your frustration is valid, but it also comes from where you draw your ‘fun’ from the game from. If, hitting that crazy stick, winning the duel, is fun, Kiriko would definitely be irritating at least. I get my fun from like, winning the game, or planning around that, so the suzu is just simply another obstacle (a huge one, granted) to the solution of having enemies between my team and the objective
@@loxo_8 watch from timestamp 7:28. kiriko and her suzu dictate what happens in the game. her, bap, and lifeweaver have abilities that dictate what you're allowed to do in the game and they get to hold those abilities before anyone is allowed to try anything because they are 1 dimensional. they also get to play from the safest positions at the back so it's often hard to force suzu and the higher up you climb the more of a pain these abilities become. kiriko also has some of the best survivability in the game. games are about choice and the only player that has choice when kiriko is played is the kiriko. choice only opens up when she makes the mistake first and that isn't fun for everyone else. also even when you are able to force suzu that doesn't mean you have the health, positioning, or ability to make a play in the next 14 seconds. making the game around the idea that suzu must be forced before other players can play is just bad design. it's a hero based shooter designed around outplaying your opponent through the use of your abilities so denying people from using their abilities by simply existing is too much power. i understand if it's fun for kiriko but it's not fun for anyone else. removing the ability to play is a big reason sombra has been changed but why is it sombra who has the lower pick/win rate is changed but not the supports? this is effect is doubled when you have something like two support heroes with immortalities. now you're experiencing 2 suzu's and one lamp in a single fight all of which can deny kills and ultimates. 3 ways to deny the enemy team by pressing E at the ground and in each one of those denials someone had to take a big risk to make a play happen and the supports took no risk at all. kiriko, lifeweaver, and bap all have frustrating parts of their kits that ruin the game for everyone else. i'm not saying they shouldn't have strong abilities i'm saying they shouldn't have the strongest and easiest abilities that negate someone else's fun at the touch of a button especially when they are designed that way intentionally. part of good game design is making sure players blame themselves for their losses and not the game. players want to feel like the matchup is fair. immortalities are bad design because players blame the game and their team and not themselves and they aren't wrong.
@ here’s the thing though- call it powercreep or just players getting better, but other ‘fairer’ characters have abilities or kits there are comparable in power to each of these supports. Brig can pack a dps across the map, whipshot a diving tank away, and block key cds like Ana nade, at the same time, pretty much- with less cooldowns on each ability. And to answer your question about the nerfs, it’s because most support players are whiny, boosted players for the most part, and I’m saying this as a support main myself. However, sombra pre-rework was disgusting in ways only s1 Kiriko was. At least at where I played at, Sombra hack made it so that every dive on backline was guaranteed, as she was always played with my region’s most popular tank, monkey. As a brig player, the choice was to either turn and block her hack(infinite invis made it so she could always stage behind you) or get hacked but whip the winston. THAT’s busted value, because it cost the sombra nothing, and if she messed up it was alright for her team. What I’m saying is, using suzu well takes skill (knowing how and when you should, along with the minor skillshot of hitting it on target and on time) along with costing her (she’s personally more vulnerable without the ability to suzu herself), while missing it or wasting it on her personal flank would be detrimental to the team- I guess the TLDR is, I’m saying the ABILITY isn’t busted, but whether it’s fun to play against varies from player to player, region to region. There’s counterplay to each character. I’d say bap’s probably the worst offender, actually, because he can survive individual, 1v1 fights quite well, so the solution usually revolves around your team taking more flanks than he’s able to support, which sometimes doesn’t happen if say, you queue into two hard hitscan players- but even then he’s just a lucky/skillful headshot away from dying
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If you think mechanical skill should be the #1 factor in who wins, there's plenty of games out there for you. Almost every shooter is that way. Overwatch is special because positioning, resource management, etc. play so big of a role
Kiri is in a good state right now, she has a lot of options but none are strong enough to win games. Her healing isn’t high enough to hold suzu, he duals aren’t good enough either, damage weaving is strong but also not enough to compete. Instead you need a combination of the most optimal tools for each situation which is hard.
Love the video feel like we have very similar views on the game ive thought of some solutions for somethings Kiri - Suzu - no longer has immo and now is a cleanse and provides attack speed buff for allies similarly to the ult but maybe not as high Tp - no longer requires allies to tp now it is more a kin to a dash/blink that can go through walls shorten the range from 35 m to 10 - 15 m Papers - I feel like the auto aim heals gotta go and make it a projectile that feels functionally similar to moria heal spray when up close but it being a projectile it would have range but it would still be a skill to use at range. It could even be a little forgiving with some kind of aoe detection radius something pretty small but enough to not feel like its too hard land all five papers at range LW - Life grip - now no longer provides immo for the entire pull just a very brief immo so that the ability can begin maybe 0.5 sec, but is now much faster it would be closer to a genji dash in terms of speed and grants an auto dash in whatever direction the pulled target is looking in after being pulled to LW. I would also nerf the range he can pull allies from to 25 m from 35 m and the autodash after the pull would be 10 m I would also let Life grip to refund his dash that heals him Secondary fire - I would revert it back to it being a sperate gun and give him a new ability. On cast he would throw some kind of seed that grounds enemies and roots them in place for 2 seconds it should feel similar to anas sleep but give the projectile drop so its more tricky to hit at range. (But for real how is the positional base hero thats all about trees and seeds and plants not root people) Baptiste - Lamp - now is a single target immo it would work by throwing it and the ally with the lowest percentage of overall health (mostly gonna be tank) the drone would then float on top and slightly behind of that players head, kinda just a straight up nerf but its so far flawed of an ability this is all i could salvage the amount of health they have at the lowest could probably be higher as well To compensate I would buff his passive crouch jump to where he also moves at walking speed while crouched I would also revert the s9 projectile changes as well
I like where your head is at. I might do things a bit differently but otherwise I think you're ball park much closer to what would be healthier for the game than what the devs currently have. the bap lamp one is interesting and gives me ideas. also i would revert season 9 projectile change too. i think that overall made the game worse in so many unintended ways.
The ironic thing about this video is that it talks about kiri cucking dps players but praises ana as if ana hasn't been cucking tanks just as hard since the start of 5v5. Ana has made a large contribution to how miserable tank is in 5v5 and it's likely suzu might have been put it in the game because the devs knew ana would make too many tank matchups unplayble. Also, many of the siutations where kiri is able to hold on to suzu until the exact right moment are the same ones where ana is able to hold sleep and/or anti until the exact right moment. They just typically fuck over different things. Remember how ana sleep used to negate almost the entire value of bob and even the new 3s duration is enough for everyone to avoid an ult that has one of the longest charge times in the game? The ironic thing about my comment however, is that I love playing kiri but still mostly agree with you. Anyone who has played heroes like tracer JQ or illari are familiar with being unable to ult until suzu is out and all they can do is pray that the fight isn't already lost by the time it's used. It's incredibly lame. But play something like ashe and you'll eventually feel the same way about ana sleep. I still do agree that the devs should at least consider changes to lamp, suzu and life grip though. Maybe grip shouldn't make people untargetable, suzu shouldn't cleanse effects, and lamp shouldn't last as long as a whole zarya grav, at least precise timing and target selection would matter more then. But I don't like all this being framed in the context that ana is design perfection.
I've made videos talking about Ana's Nade against tanks like roadhog and their kits not being provided with ways to outplay the Nade to make it feel rewarding as well you just didn't watch them. the problem with Ana's Nade isn't just that it's powerful but certain tanks have no way to outplay it. rein can predict and block it and so can winston, orisa, zarya, etc... the problem isn't the Nade it's giving players the feeling that they could have outplayed their situation. i focus on suzu because suzu affects everyone and not like Nade which is a hard counter for some but a mild nuisance for others. EDIT: forgot to add Ana using Nade leaves her incredibly vulnerable to a dive or attack. Kiriko using suzu can still TP 30m through walls to an ally every 7 seconds and is one of the best duelists in the game leading to a lot more frustration around her.
My issue with these "supports are too strong" is youd cry and moan if your supports were dead every fight. The better i get and climb at this game the more i understand why brig was as busted as she came out. Majority of the supports cant defend themselves against dive and then get verbally abused for dying. Maybe yall didnt play during early OW but 5 dps and 1 support was common in ranked cause SUPPORTS COULDNT CARRY. And since they brought in role queue supports had to have the capability of fighting back. Dive at its strongest had lucio zen as the supports because everyone else was useless and zen was just to discord an enemy and then die when he got dove. Great experience for supports indeed. Support finally gets some teeth to bite back and now all the tracers and genjis are crying that they cant bully supports for free anymore.
I've been playing since friends and family beta of Overwatch in 2016 so i definitely know it's history. Benefit to being a game dev in SoCal. It seems like people don't watch the entire video or somehow misunderstand still. i have said repeatedly that i want strong supports not frustrating ones. ones with kits that are more than 1 dimensional. Ana is the strongest among all the supports and I've never criticized her kit. She can duel, she can make plays, she can defend, she has a powerful ult that can be countered and she has inherent weaknesses. To say that i'd be crying and moaning is building up some sort of straw man argument to feel better about your own opinion or perhaps being a support main i don't know. I am asking to rework certain supports to give them more choice and agency by expanding what they can do so it's not limited to just denying kills for free. to have those same abilities somehow be changed so they could either be a proactive or predictive ability as well as reactive. giving supports more choice makes them stronger but when supports have more choice it means tanks and dps do as well. if you can watch this entire video and miss what i'm saying then maybe this won't matter but if you didn't watch the whole thing i talk about this exact issue at the 25 minute mark with lifeweaver and expanding his kit to give him an ability that works in ways to help his team but also defend himself. i highly encourage you to watch that part and see how i am trying to advocate for stronger support heroes with better kits because you couldn't be more wrong with what you said.
I've been playing since 2016 and never seen high elo players complain about zarya bubbles. shields yeah but that was a balance issue. people should make videos and content critiquing live service games. after all it's an iterative product and there are always things that can be improved upon and making content helps devs figure out what to focus on. as with all iterative products the goal isn't perfection but positive progress. game devs are not people who went to get a masters degree in game design. they're regular people and regular gamers. they are bound to make mistakes and great ideas can come from anyone and they watch content and share it around the office like everyone else. i say all this because comments like this come off as "people just like to complain" which comes off as dismissive. when that is ignoring a lot of the progress that was made in the game came from people being vocal. people shouldn't stop complaining about things that make the game less fun. it's how we improve the game.
goats, double shield were always an issue of suppports being too strong, stacking aoe healing, invulnerability cooldowns, its what dumbs down the gameplay loop and makes it less fun
support playes have to keep track of every dps cooldown, so why are dps players bothered by keeping track of just 2? for suzu. its not even a one tap ability, the timing is disgusting, twice the delay as ana granade. dps characters are way more onedimentional, reason why i dont play them: tracer: hold the off angle till something is low reaper: tp into the backline, separate or kill the support, fade out widow: click heads hanzo: hold a mid range off angle and aim the only character that are as complex and can be contested with skill are current mei, echo and genji dps whine and bitch because they are used to supports being target practice in this game, reason why it was an awfull role to play and didnt have a playerbase till ow 2
@@arinrobinson3898 it had the shortest queue in all overwatch one, i played since atackers where decided by ¨the coin¨ even now its easier to climb on support due to the lack of players present, there is simply way less people to fill the ladder than dps, even now
@@KCrucis Tank had the shortest queue time and there's stats from overwatch in their 6v6 blog to back that up. my support queue time is also the longest of them all. if you've been playing that long i would hope you had a better understanding of the game but you grossly oversimplify the choices you have as a dps while making suzu out to be some difficult ability. you literally press E at the ground when someone gets low or an ult is used. it's not that deep. DPS heroes all have to take risks and off angles. which angles they take and who they target. after that how they use their abilities matters. do they go for more reliable targets and damage or do they take a risk going for someone high value? do they use their defensive ability to get out or to try and win the duel with someone? this is player choice and it's a good thing. risk vs reward. support heroes with immortalities sit at the back healing and doing damage from behind their tank and dps and if anyone gets low press E. they are in the safest position from the start. there is no risk, it's easy to do, and most of their ults guarantee value and can't be countered. most other heroes have an interesting dynamic of how they use their skills. cassidy has his flash and he has choice, flash tracer before recall or after? bait a few blinks and then throw it or try to catch her early? tracer you try to dodge and predict the flash with blinks or recall. there's a lot of choice back and forth between the two that allow for both players to feel like they outplayed the other. a duel with kiriko is try to dodge her kunai which can two tap you, shoot her enough to where she suzu's, she tp's away. it's a no risk lose lose situation for tracer. top it off the person dueling the support is probably taking a huge risk as kiriko most likely wont' be on the front lines. that's the gameplay loop with kiriko. she has to be really bad and extremely mess up to die and this is what immortalities do to the game. you're not trying to outplay your opponent you're just trying to do so much damage that they use their abilities so you can then use yours. hence the 1 dimensional problem. it's an extremely forgiving role. i don't think you understand dps or tank role enough to not understand the frustration these abilities bring. you say dps whine and bitch but i feel like i was very fair in my criticism and even offered ideas on how to make supports stronger but also feel more fair and instead of responding with any valid counter points in an objective way you ran fast to the comments to complain about dps players. this a major pot calling the kettle black kind of moment.
dps only have to track 2 abilities? good joke. They have to track two abilities from each support. I promise you a dps player is tracking every cd more than you unless your sitting in the back of the map playing lifeweaver. If a dps makes a single mistake they die. supports have an extra bailout button and overblown kits. Dps track every single ability used so they know when they are allowed to play the game.
Your fundamental argument doesn't make sense to me and that's why we disagree. Baiting out the bubble has existed almost as long as Overwatch has, it's okay that Zarya can stop a D.VA bomb off cooldown but not Kiri? It's not because it's a reactionary ability (which we both agree bubble is) so I don't think that reactionary abilities are fundamentally flawed, I don't think that a reactionary ability makes you have the illusion of choice at all. Every player on a team has a role, and you make a point that, because suzu exists you can't make a play for yourself, and I have to raise the point that you're playing a team game, making an opening for your team is the ENTIRE game. You make openings by pushing, creating space, kiting the enemy out, baiting abilities, baiting ults for ult economy. So your solution of a complete rework IS a solution to your problem, but your problem is really close to being about having to play as a team, and as a result, pushes the game away from that team based push and pull rhythm the game has, so you're pushing for a different type of game that isn't really Overwatch. And I'm not trying to state your argument for you, or what you like and dislike about the game, but I do wonder if what your desired changes to the game support what the game has always been or push it in an entirely different direction.
you're ignoring how bubbles are a resource zarya wants and has to use and is also single target. suzu is reactionary only and she doesn't want to use it proactively or predictively forcing this problem. i'm pushing what is good game design. there are simple game design principles and rules we're taught to use to encourage players to lose and want to queue back up again. immortalities go against those basic principles.
I'm sorry, while i do believe suzu is problematic, its very bloated, moat your points were very selfish. Yes these abilities you've touched on (suzu, lamp, and even grip) are very frustrating at times, to say its makes a 1 dimensional game play loop is wrong to me. There are many characters and cd's that can kill so fast, it does not matter. There are characters that can easily bait these cd's, and punish after. No character, or player, shoud always get reward. This is a team game, where team plays should be the overall reward, players in this community need to understand that. All the options you presented in your example are still valid options. It is unlikely if you 4-5 man ult a team, that suzu saves them all. At most 3, but probably 2, but that opens plays for your team. So many characters have cd's you need to force to engage with them, while they still have options. I think kiri using suzu is more can be more skillful than a genji deflect, CAN BE. This isn't by any means so binary as you paint it. Widow, cass, junk, ashe, and others have such short ttk's just at the dps role. Plus many tanks have insta kills, that these long cd abilities just can't always be reliable. They absolutely take good game knowledge to really take advantage of. Again i will restate they are frustrating. But so is shooting a sheid, or your favorite tracer is insanely frustrating for many characters. As well as recall is absolutely a get out of jail free card at times. I do think suzu needs to lose one of its aspects, either the cleans or the invulnerability, but its not because of one demonsional gameplay. I honestly don't mind lamp, i think it usually doesn't do much, and i certainly have no issues with grasp. I think the idea of "i didn't feel rewarded, because i didn't get the kill, but we won the fight" is certainly a one dimensional way to think. Thats honestly my biggest problem with your video, you've approached it with a selfish and negative mindset. This entire game is about taking and controlling space, its to take away the your opponents options. Thats how any team game works, whoever dictates the fight has the advantage. So if there is a kiri you counter suzu by dictating when she uses it, not letting her choose when. Your fruit will come from your rank, playstyle, meta, hero choice, and many other factors. Characters amd abilities you find frustrating, might not be frustrating to others. Where the majority of the player base suzu isn't frustrating, while sombra was massively frustrating. You made a long video and expressed your thoughts well. But ultimately the points just didn't land. It was so subjective, and full of opinions. Which yes, it's your channel and you have every right to say them. I think you might need to approach this with a less selfish view point. Sorry if the punctuation isn't great, I've always been behind in terms of writing. But i hope its understandable
first point, other heroes aren't about baiting out abilities as they use theirs proactively to try and secure kills leaving them vulnerable where immortalities are reactive ones. there are also other ways to play around them like blocking, dodging, absorbing, reflecting, etc... and it's always been a team game where team play should be rewarded but in terms of game design if you say the only way for a player to win certain situations is to rely on their team you create a toxic environment in which players will naturally blame their teammates instead of themselves for their mistakes and they wouldn't be wrong. overwatch wasn't always this way but it's becoming that way so it's just bad game design. second point, i don't know how to take you seriously that deflect is at all nearly as powerful as suzu... i play in masters and a single suzu combined with healing negated a 5 man grav in one of my games this week against zarya. deflect can't do that and deflect is a predictive ability which is much harder to use with many weaknesses. suzu has no weakness or way to outplay it. the only solution is force her to use it which is bad design. third point on tracer, maybe it's cause i'm a tracer main but i find her incredibly easy to deal with. it takes so many hours to get good with her you rarely find great ones. recall is not a get out of jail free card as it still only puts her back in place 3 seconds ago and that means in that time she has to make a play in a small window many of which don't gain any value. i have an entire montage of pulse bombing tracers in their recall position so calling it a get out of jail free card is kind of funny to me. she's incredibly vulnerable the moment she pops out of recall and most of the time they overstay their time making it an easy kill. forcing her recall makes her incredibly weak and vulnerable. she also is most likely to get one shot. there are many ways to play around a tracer especially in overwatch 2. kiriko does not have the same vulnerabilities as other heroes and she's much easier to play. to be honest i have a hard time taking your criticisms with much seriousness. you seemed to miss a lot of the points i've made in defense of your hero. you didn't make any points that actually address player frustration and many of the frustrations i'm referencing are from players where at high elo suzu is just not fun but denying kills and plays is never fun in an fps. especially when it's so easy to do. it's also what makes tank not fun to play. if you selfishly just want to say you like it just how it is and you don't want it changed sure but if i can admit hog, widow, sombra, mauga, and orisa isn't fun for anyone but the people playing them why is it so hard for kiri players to do the same?
your core argument is really flimsy. I get what you mean that you can use the ult in all kinds of ways to benefit your team but the enemy team having the option to suzu makes your team's tactics one-dimensional. It sounds like it make sense, but one could say that there are many different ways to "bait a suzu", just like there are many ways to use JQ Ult. Using the JQ ult is a lot more fun than baiting out a suzu, so I can understand your frustration leading you to make a 30 minute long video, but you're not getting at the real issues plaguing Overwatch's hero design.
Also you fail to acknowledge a situation where JQ ult is what baits the suzu, then your junkrat kills 3 of them bc there's no suzu and the whole team is looking at you, JQ. Around 15 minutes in I start to feel confused about what your main point is beyond a counterpoint to "bait the suzu". Zarya bubble is an AOE. "It's not fun" is true for you but may be false for others. They aren't ruining the experience for everyone else, just you, it seems to get you very heated so maybe take a break from the games. "you dictate how everyone else takes action" is a very common scenario in overwatch beyond baptiste, kiriko and lifeweaver. I don't play doomfist or ball but I know flashbang and hack completely dismantle their playstyle. Just like the suzu for jq, doomfist needs to play around the hack. In fact, this scenario has been around since before overwatch 2, it's called playing a hero shooter where you have 20+ characters with different abilities with a plethora of in-game effects. seriously think you need to calm down and take down this video cause it's kinda embarrassing.
I've made a bunch of videos also talking about issues with road hog. Not sure why you're telling me to calm down that's just how I sound. The other abilities you mention I also go over why they give players the feeling of fairness because they are proactive abilities they want to use but also are not incredibly strong. I'm beginning to think either you didn't watch it fully or you just didn't want to understand the point.
You’re like the only person I’ve seen address this honestly. People talk about how the game now has more individual playmaking but nothing is killable with no concept of choice or error on either side
Thank you for taking notice. I got kind of tired of people not asking the right questions so i decided to address them myself. glad to see it's resonating with some people such as yourself!
I agree. I don't know what they were thinking with kiriko or lifeweaver. I love playing ashe because she has so many options. Coach gun can boop people off the map, boop me back to safety, up to high ground, do damage for finishing a kill, or set the enemy up for a scoped shot. That one ability has more options than kiriko or lifeweaver's entire kit lol. Sometimes it's hard to believe the same people make these characters, some are so amazing and some are so awful.
11:16 I love jq and anytime I have ult and they have a kiri I think about this, I literally can't ult until they suzu cause if I don't wait I go in and die cause she cleanses all my bleeds not to mention she cleansed all my antiheal so my team cant even follow up
JQ is such a fun hero too and one of the most fun tanks to play and just kiriko's existence alone makes it so you can't play her and it sucks.
I think immortality should only block a certain amount of damage. Like say it blocks up 100/150 damage per shot, so if you’re getting hit by most primary fires and abilities, you won’t take damage. But if you get hit by major damage, say Dva Bomb,, you’ll take that damage minus the 100 or whatever from immortality. So most players will still die when their opponent uses their biggest damage resources,, but it still has use from saying teammates from minor damage. idk.
you know i never thought about it in that way. a percentage damage reduction is the first thing that comes to mind but i'd be really curious if it was possible to test and see how it feels if it negated just a small set of damage. that would provide a much smaller window of escape and feel less overpowered than just resetting lets say a tanks low health to full in a second. this is a really interesting and good idea.
So it's Zarya's bubble
I was a Winston main for a very long time in OW2. I've recently gone over to maining support to fill a role in my scrim team because I just couldn't hack tanking anymore. Every time I think of playing Winston I'm sad about his state. I love him, still my favorite hero, but he just suffers so badly in the current patch.
I can say that Winston, one of the purportedly "fun", "honest", "fair, or "healthy" heroes, suffers greatly from 1-dimensional counters to him. However, the majority of the 1-dimensional heroes he suffers from are NOT supports. He mainly suffers from Hog, Mauga, Bastion, and Torb. I generally don't count Reaper or Queen because they have enough limitations to exploit as a Winston. But what are the 1-dimensionalities being suffered from? very tanky (practically unkillable with supports pocketing them) and abilities that really only have a use to react to a proactive tank. Mauga and Bastion just sit there and wait for you to go in and try to do something, then they both hit their abilities and blow you away with DPS you can never hope to match or stand in for even a second. Essentially, as a Winston, when they hit their buttons, I can't play the game for 6 whole seconds, or just die. How can Mauga and Bastion be seen to be anything other than 1-dimensional?
Now you may argue that Bastion doesn't do all that well and his WR is low. I might come back and say its because he is 1-dimensional, and that as soon as he's up against a tank that doesn't have to be proactive, he suffers greatly. In other words, I swap from Winston to Orisa, Mauga, Ram or Sig and I've countered the Bastion. But really, should it be that severe that either Bastion or Winston have to suffer in matchups like that?
Supports are not the only role with 1-dimensional kit designs.
There are 1 dimensional other heroes too and I've made other videos talking about them but supports and immortalies are what I focus on because they're the biggest offenders. Especially in those instances with mauga and bastion because if you did manage to get them low as Winston and they are saved by Suzu there's legit nothing you can do but switch. Mauga and bastion might need addressing but things like Suzu make counter picking even more prevalent because it turns difficult tasks into impossible ones.
Yeah I agree. There are plenty of other heroes that aren't supports that suffer from being extremely dull and 1-dimensional. The only reason supports get the spotlight is because their cooldowns have the most value in comparison to how easy they are to do.
idk why someone people think ana is easier than kiri all that ana can do better in a 1v1 is stun her self heals are worse she can't escape anything and can't 2 tap a ton of heroes in the game super quickly
I don't get it either. Ana has strong abilities but she's non mobile and has to have perfect positioning. she also uses those abilities a lot making her vulnerable. kiri has damage, high mobility, range, better duel potential, immortality she gets to hold, and one of the best ults in the game. she actually has no weaknesses. even taking a duel with her is stupid because she just tp's away. i never understood people complaining about ana's nade when it's never even registered to me as an issue in comparison to kiri.
Because they’re right… kiri performs worse than Ana by a decent amount. Kiri has a lot of tools but it’s 100% clear that she’s not easy to use.
@@arinrobinson3898she doesn’t heal enough, does dual that well unless she’s burning suzu or up against 225 heroes. She doesn’t peel her other support that well either so they have to be very passive or survivable. She isn’t that strong right now. Once again tracer your main is significantly more toxic 😂
@@bennettstokes195 1. win rates are a bad metric in which to critique a characters design in the same way that looking at the scorecard in game to determine who is contributing most.
2. kiri heals more than enough for what her kit allows her to do and her healing isn't the frustrating part of her kit but it is the most boring. suzu which is an incredibly frustrating and easy to use ability can literally turn fights around and she frequently gets two in one fight.
3. i am a tracer main but i have gotten to the same rank on every role using different heroes. my first time ever playing kiriko i got to GM in 3 hours. however, i am also fair in admitting tracer benefitted greatly from season 9 projectile changes as well as the dps passive. both things i am adamantly against. the reason why tracer is such a threat is because other heroes do not have the tools to fight back. which is why in this video i explain how to do that and why it should be done with other heroes. 1 dimensional abilities limit not just the people dealing with them but also how people using them can play.
4. kiri is still one of the best duelists in the game that takes the least amount of risk and if you now how to play the game is super easy. i don't get where you're saying she can't peel unless you miss time suzu or can't hit your shots. her kit is only hard for those who do not understand positioning and or when to use their abilities because it's designed in a way that makes it very easy to do the wrong thing like tp'ing into someone you know is already dead. her win rate, which people such as yourself like to cite, is low because of this fact.
5. her winrate could 40% and suzu would still be unfun and frustrating. as pointed out in the video.
i swear kiri mains are so excited to speak in comments while having not paid attention at all or watched any of the many videos I've made explaining it.
@@arinrobinson3898 1. the winrate at all levels including gm is low, for me I usually use just masters and Gm. As long as the character has a decent pick rate, the winrate should be indictive of their meta relevance. for kiri she's often picked, and often loses.
2. Suzu is very powerful, and pretty annoying to play against, but as long as her heals are suffeciently weak it is required to keep her team from dying. this prevents it from being held up for ults constantly. in most fights she will be forced to burn it.
3. Kiri isn't very interactive. her escape ability is very very strong, making her impossible to punish. She herself can be punished but that's usually her making a mistake into someone rather than her not having the tools to escape. The reason I bring up tracer is because the overwatch old heads don't seem to realize tracer isn't interactable. the things that can kill tracer are very similar to the things that can kill kiri, but when they land thats usually because kiri didnt suzu or tp, and the same is true for tracer. yes you can hit the sleep on tracer (usually doesn't kill) but thats because she miss used her blinks. the control is all in the tracer/kiri. I think it's okay to say characters need to be interactable, but be consistant. I also think theres an arguement that they don't, that tracer is fine the way she is, aside from being overtuned, and likewise kiri is fine because she herself is not overtuned right now.
4. she can't peel enough right now. she can't usually be played with zen or juno, and rarely be played with ana, those are the fragile backliners that I was refering to
5. suzu is annoying I agree, but its not that hardto play around in its current state. lamp is far worse as is pull. Suzu can and often is used as a source of healing in a way lamp and pull basically never are.
I got a lot of questions about what people think all around about OW currently mainly cause I want to “Get Gud” again and don’t really understand what the devs were cooking
Excellent take
Thank you!
You hit the nail on this... I literally get a panick attack thinking of OW's problems because it's literally just design flaws that could easily be adressed if it wasn't for blizzards monetization efforts (appeal to lower skill player, they buy skins cus they have a job, game ruined for everyone else).
My brain still remembers the pre-brig/bap era and it hurts.
I've watched a few of your videos and you have valid and objective points. My friend and I often have interesting ideas as we play and something we thought could be interesting was if Lifeweaver had his pull work both ways as it does in Devil May Cry. So it could pull teammates towards you but you could also make the decision to pull yourself to your teammates position instead. It's disappointing that your ideas and thoughts are so poorly received but I suppose it's to be expected. This is the internet after all and you're obviously no stranger to it I'm sure. I've appreciated everything you've put out so far and hope you continue to share your thoughts and opinions as they're quite insightful and refreshing. There seem to only be discussions about balance and little about game "feel" as you've put it . I love depth and complexity but there likely is an element of accessibility in how these heroes are designed in order to bring in a larger player base as well so there's that to consider too. Look forward to seeing more of your content in the future!
omg this comment actually makes me so happy! I want all my videos to be related to game feel and design over perfect balance and it makes me happy to see some people are understanding it. players will play an unbalanced game that feels good over a perfectly balanced one that feels bad which is why it's something i'm so passionate about. I could talk about video games and design for hours.
also i never thought about that with lifeweaver but that's a really good idea and already offers him more choice than he does now. i imagine it would be as simple as pressing E to select someone and left or right click to pull to you or go to them. i wonder if that would feel like too many consecutive button presses but otherwise it sounds good on paper and i think is worth a try. there is a fine balance of overwatch with it's accessibility and it's one thing i always need to keep in mind better because i am that fast action paced high skill kind of gamer.
there's a lot of hate from some people that think i'm just trying to get their favorite supports nerfed even though i'm not but it's ok. in terms of likes on my videos even though it's not many it's still like 85%-90% like ratio so i think that's pretty good for me. I've had a growth of like 240 subs in the last two months so that's really good for me! i'm not trying to do any clickbaity videos or anything. i just love talking game design so hopefully the right people find me and it looks like it's working if you did!
i really appreciate your comment and will try to keep coming up with more ideas for videos thank you!
I like how angry these clips were 0:58
A rage inducing ability every 14 seconds and that's just one immortality.
I think Lifeweaver's core identity is that of a strategist who helps plans things out for their team and sets them up while he assists in the background. I think of Pull as an ability you use to help your dps escape to a different angle/flank and that's why it didn't have heal on it initially, but I think the way they went about doing changes and buffs to him post release were largely in the wrong direction until a couple seasons ago like the automatic charge heal that has been suggested since a week into his launch. I call it tankweaver because they just tried to make him viable by giga buffing his healing, when in reality the only weakness he ever had was that they tried to make him like mercy but his projectile speed was too slow. 40 clip with like 80~ projectile speed is likely the kind of weapon they should have went for, a strong burst of damage at close to mid or mid-long range but takes too long for him to actively DPS like a bap or illari might. So, I think they should've buffed his projectile speed on thorn volley and buffed his dash, either reducing it's cooldown or giving it more range primarily, but some of the other buffs they gave him were good too I think.
I think any idea that removes petal or pull entirely is the wrong direction for his potential. Lifeweaver is an inherently creative character focused on creativity held back by now being properly enabled to do creative things with his tools all that often. He's designed to be an off-healer, but tankweaver tried making him a main-healer, but that's the worst direction to go. Lifeweaver being a giga healbot is the least fun version of his character.
Sombra was my DPS main for quite a while and a huge complaint from people was that she can completely cancel an ult with just a normal ability. My counterargument to that was that it was a risk and could also be easily interrupted. It did take some skill to predict an ult, be in range, be in a safe spot, and have hack off cooldown. Still, I understand how it was (well, is) frustrating to people.
But now you have Kiriko who can essentially cancel the effects of virtually ALL ults with zero risk. There's virtually no way to interrupt it like there is with Sombra and her positioning is practically irrelevant. Why do we not have the same (it really should be greater, imo) outrage?
i can admit sombra had some cheesy parts of her kit but yeah, in comparison to the support roster i had no issue with that. even if sombra was perma invis in the back she was very useless most of the time. even if she did pop up and you just immediately turn on her she would die. she still also had to hit her virus to secure kills anyway.
meanwhile i had a game where my zarya landed a 5 man grav that i pulsed and one suzu stopped all of it and since it was high elo she wasn't going to waste the suzu early so i had to pulse to force it so hopefully my team could follow up. we couldn't and lost the fight. there was no skill with that suzu and it countered 2 ults no problem. there was so much healing and mitigation that we couldn't do anything despite pumping as much damage as we could into it. the only solution was get all 5 people to focus as much as possible and that's not good game play.
for some reason the support role is babied and never receives the same kinds of reworks or nerfs. kiri gets nerfed for maybe two weeks before they buff her again every time. every single game i play in i see a kiri without fail. people talk about her winrate but if her winrate is so bad and she's so weak and hard to play then why is she in 90% of my games?
@@arinrobinson3898 Yes! Completely agree with all of this. In fact, here's my take on healing in general, maybe a hot take: pocketing should be "impossible." Basically, imo healing should only serve to get you back to health when you're positioned properly or MAYBE give you a few extra moments in an aggressive yet still smart position. If you're out of position, no amount of healing except for maybe a support ult should be able to save you. Imo, supports should have to struggle to keep anyone alive so that their role is centered on having to wisely choose who to let die and who to help live. They should have to triage like real medics lol.
The whole reason for the increased hitboxes was because Blizzard recognized that hitting stuff is fun...but I would argue that KILLING stuff is the actual fun. Hitting stuff that never dies is NOT fun. Especially when you had to take risks to do it and then the tables are turned on you. I'm not saying it needs to be like Valorant, but securing kills should be priortized over long team fights.
You mentioned seeing pull or suzu twice in one fight. At my elo (plat/diamond) the fights are often long enough that you see those abilities even more often. And it's hecka frustrating. And, ngl, I too have been on the other end where I'm asking myself, "Why the heck am I not dead yet??" as I'm getting avalanched with damage.
@@danielmccloe2237 I'm so happy to see someone finally understanding what I've been getting at. you're right, hitting stuff isn't fun, killing things is fun and season 9 was not the helpful change people think it was. it was just a change that lost novelty rather quick. long team fights aren't great if it's frustrating.
i would like to see the game go back to being about securing kills rather than taking 6000 damage for 4 kills. the healing is just too high, the ways to deny are too high, the easy 1 dimensional abilities are too many. it's not to say overwatch doesn't have great points about it, it does, it's just that these other things are taking away from the fun so much so it pushes players like tanks away.
i get sick of needing ana and kiriko to play the game. every game has an ana, so you HAVE to kiri. i think anti should be changed to function differently. make it so anti can be healed off, but applies no healing to the anti'd hero until it is fully healed away. this would mean it would be ineffective to passive heal it off with mercy beam or lucio passive heal, but instead would require a cooldown to be spent to remove the effect. lucio amp, or moira orb, combo of illari beam and turret. each character would have a different level of effectivness in cleansing, but at least they can do it.
It would be interesting if it was changed from no healing to reduced healing. I do also wonder with how out of control healing has been how that makes anti nade so much more valuable and if we ton the healing down how much it wouldn't seem like a must have.
@@arinrobinson3898 i think they would have to try it, but i think reduced healing takes away too much from anti. anti best use is when an enemy is low a well timed well aimed cooldown ability allows that enemy to be taken out of the fight.
This is a weird take because it wasn't an issue for all the years where Kiri wasn't in the game.
People always thought Ana metas were fun.
@@libertyprime9307 did you forget they doubled alot of characters health damn near?
Ow peaked at 3 dps winston lucio zen meta and its been downhill since then. What happened to supports not making things invincible? What happened to getting punished for mistakes or getting rewarded for good plays?
Tank isnt fun when you lose in 5v5.
Mauga/orisa/hog widow/sombra kiri/bap/lw overwatch would be so better without these characters.
Doom/mei/venture/brig also quite problematic but idk
"An Ikea product uj their back pocket" bro 💀
support has always been the problem, from the hero design, to the kits, to the players who play the role.
Kiriko isn’t god. If she’s played with another flex support, the support duo is much, much easier to kill when (if) you get on them(no boops, no speeds, heals can be blocked by shields) If she’s played with a main support (read: pretty much only lucio), her team has better angle control (hence why we see tracer players mald when their 1v1s get made into 2v1s) but that also means their tank actually can die much more easily. There’s a reason why she’s not picked in pro play and Juno+Brig is dominant, she just isn’t that good, she just feels like shit to play against when you’re playing a flanker. When she’s putting her attention on ruining your day, someone else on your team is winning because they don’t have to deal with her util, but no one actually cares about the team’s success, because everyone wants to see the little red skull on their screen and the ticky white crosses (understandable, that shit is satisfying asf)
bringing up juno+brig as an argument to say kiriko isn't strong when she's been constantly picked before that isn't the argument you think it is. juno is incredibly over tuned at the moment which is why teams are built around her in mind. this is like saying Ram was weak in season 8 cause mauga was released. it's not even a fair comparison when your baseline is the new broken hero.
it doesn't matter how weak or strong kiriko is she will always be unfun to play against and create a 1 dimensional gameplay problem hence the video. the game shouldn't revolve around getting suzu out first before players get choices on how to play. people keep ignoring the whole point i'm getting at. also it's not just as a flanker, i hate seeing her as tank or any other role. i hate her, i hate lifeweaver, i hate bap, and it doesn't matter what role or hero i'm playing these heroes are frustrating to play against and that is a problem. the same arguments people make to defend kiri could have been used to defend sombra but she got destroyed into the ground. she wasn't dominating games but she was frustrating to play against. so if we can change sombra because she wasn't healthy for the game then we can change kiri too.
@ Okay, but how is forcing suzu unfun? I usually take my fights pretty carefully, lowkey lickin my lips like daring the Kiriko to show up. Like, sometimes it ruins a play, but like, it’s unfun for one person- and like, your team still benefits. Finding creative ways to force out suzu without blowing big cooldowns is interesting and pretty engaging- and there always is room for error- like, if I were to take a winning duel with the expectation that a Kiriko is going to swoop in, and she doesn’t? Free kill, thanks. While the objective is to force suzu, it’s far from one dimensional- you’ve got options to pressure frontline, flank and find backline, or get on her yourself. Unless you’re playing against a really good Kiriko, eventually they’re going to mess up juggling who and who not to suzu, and that’s when you eat the cdless kiri (or her team) alive. It forces you to actually think and layer your gameplan, which, at least to me, is pretty damn fun. Additionally, her lack of a boop really frees up dive tanks to actually jump in without getting smacked away, if she’s paired with a support without boops, not sure if I said that but if I didn’t, that gives you yet another avenue to either force suzu or get a kill
@ I guess to sum up your frustration is valid, but it also comes from where you draw your ‘fun’ from the game from. If, hitting that crazy stick, winning the duel, is fun, Kiriko would definitely be irritating at least. I get my fun from like, winning the game, or planning around that, so the suzu is just simply another obstacle (a huge one, granted) to the solution of having enemies between my team and the objective
@@loxo_8 watch from timestamp 7:28.
kiriko and her suzu dictate what happens in the game. her, bap, and lifeweaver have abilities that dictate what you're allowed to do in the game and they get to hold those abilities before anyone is allowed to try anything because they are 1 dimensional. they also get to play from the safest positions at the back so it's often hard to force suzu and the higher up you climb the more of a pain these abilities become. kiriko also has some of the best survivability in the game. games are about choice and the only player that has choice when kiriko is played is the kiriko. choice only opens up when she makes the mistake first and that isn't fun for everyone else. also even when you are able to force suzu that doesn't mean you have the health, positioning, or ability to make a play in the next 14 seconds. making the game around the idea that suzu must be forced before other players can play is just bad design. it's a hero based shooter designed around outplaying your opponent through the use of your abilities so denying people from using their abilities by simply existing is too much power. i understand if it's fun for kiriko but it's not fun for anyone else. removing the ability to play is a big reason sombra has been changed but why is it sombra who has the lower pick/win rate is changed but not the supports? this is effect is doubled when you have something like two support heroes with immortalities. now you're experiencing 2 suzu's and one lamp in a single fight all of which can deny kills and ultimates. 3 ways to deny the enemy team by pressing E at the ground and in each one of those denials someone had to take a big risk to make a play happen and the supports took no risk at all.
kiriko, lifeweaver, and bap all have frustrating parts of their kits that ruin the game for everyone else. i'm not saying they shouldn't have strong abilities i'm saying they shouldn't have the strongest and easiest abilities that negate someone else's fun at the touch of a button especially when they are designed that way intentionally. part of good game design is making sure players blame themselves for their losses and not the game. players want to feel like the matchup is fair. immortalities are bad design because players blame the game and their team and not themselves and they aren't wrong.
@ here’s the thing though- call it powercreep or just players getting better, but other ‘fairer’ characters have abilities or kits there are comparable in power to each of these supports. Brig can pack a dps across the map, whipshot a diving tank away, and block key cds like Ana nade, at the same time, pretty much- with less cooldowns on each ability. And to answer your question about the nerfs, it’s because most support players are whiny, boosted players for the most part, and I’m saying this as a support main myself. However, sombra pre-rework was disgusting in ways only s1 Kiriko was. At least at where I played at, Sombra hack made it so that every dive on backline was guaranteed, as she was always played with my region’s most popular tank, monkey. As a brig player, the choice was to either turn and block her hack(infinite invis made it so she could always stage behind you) or get hacked but whip the winston. THAT’s busted value, because it cost the sombra nothing, and if she messed up it was alright for her team. What I’m saying is, using suzu well takes skill (knowing how and when you should, along with the minor skillshot of hitting it on target and on time) along with costing her (she’s personally more vulnerable without the ability to suzu herself), while missing it or wasting it on her personal flank would be detrimental to the team- I guess the TLDR is, I’m saying the ABILITY isn’t busted, but whether it’s fun to play against varies from player to player, region to region. There’s counterplay to each character. I’d say bap’s probably the worst offender, actually, because he can survive individual, 1v1 fights quite well, so the solution usually revolves around your team taking more flanks than he’s able to support, which sometimes doesn’t happen if say, you queue into two hard hitscan players- but even then he’s just a lucky/skillful headshot away from dying
Yo what's that shirt? Where'd you get it from?
Oh it's a brand called Neo4ic. The clothes are a bit on the pricier side but they're really high quality and they're long so it's great cause I'm tall and skinny. Highly recommend them. I know it's past but they have good black Friday sales too.
If you think mechanical skill should be the #1 factor in who wins, there's plenty of games out there for you. Almost every shooter is that way. Overwatch is special because positioning, resource management, etc. play so big of a role
when did i argue that mechanical skill should be the number 1 factor?
mechanical skill should matter. More than what hero you play. If you pick hero and win or press button and win a monkey can be trained to do that...
@@hgge-j6d Did you just not read the comment? "Overwatch is special because positioning, resource management, etc. play so big of a role"
Kiri is in a good state right now, she has a lot of options but none are strong enough to win games. Her healing isn’t high enough to hold suzu, he duals aren’t good enough either, damage weaving is strong but also not enough to compete. Instead you need a combination of the most optimal tools for each situation which is hard.
kiri isnt in a good state, we are just in a hard brawl meta defined by juno so theres no room for her shes still complete aids to play against
@@joenuts2911 pre juno was she dominating high ranks? do you even know?
@@bennettstokes195 yes LMAOOOO you ran lucio kiri/bap in brawl
@@joenuts2911 she's sometimes been good, but I remember her being bad in season 11
mightve been good before then though
@@bennettstokes195 season 11 was pharah season i think so that wouldnt surprise me but thats her surroundings again not kiri herself
Love the video feel like we have very similar views on the game ive thought of some solutions for somethings
Kiri - Suzu - no longer has immo and now is a cleanse and provides attack speed buff for allies similarly to the ult but maybe not as high
Tp - no longer requires allies to tp now it is more a kin to a dash/blink that can go through walls shorten the range from 35 m to 10 - 15 m
Papers - I feel like the auto aim heals gotta go and make it a projectile that feels functionally similar to moria heal spray when up close but it being a projectile it would have range but it would still be a skill to use at range. It could even be a little forgiving with some kind of aoe detection radius something pretty small but enough to not feel like its too hard land all five papers at range
LW - Life grip - now no longer provides immo for the entire pull just a very brief immo so that the ability can begin maybe 0.5 sec, but is now much faster it would be closer to a genji dash in terms of speed and grants an auto dash in whatever direction the pulled target is looking in after being pulled to LW. I would also nerf the range he can pull allies from to 25 m from 35 m and the autodash after the pull would be 10 m I would also let Life grip to refund his dash that heals him
Secondary fire - I would revert it back to it being a sperate gun and give him a new ability. On cast he would throw some kind of seed that grounds enemies and roots them in place for 2 seconds it should feel similar to anas sleep but give the projectile drop so its more tricky to hit at range. (But for real how is the positional base hero thats all about trees and seeds and plants not root people)
Baptiste - Lamp - now is a single target immo it would work by throwing it and the ally with the lowest percentage of overall health (mostly gonna be tank) the drone would then float on top and slightly behind of that players head, kinda just a straight up nerf but its so far flawed of an ability this is all i could salvage the amount of health they have at the lowest could probably be higher as well
To compensate I would buff his passive crouch jump to where he also moves at walking speed while crouched
I would also revert the s9 projectile changes as well
I like where your head is at. I might do things a bit differently but otherwise I think you're ball park much closer to what would be healthier for the game than what the devs currently have. the bap lamp one is interesting and gives me ideas.
also i would revert season 9 projectile change too. i think that overall made the game worse in so many unintended ways.
The ironic thing about this video is that it talks about kiri cucking dps players but praises ana as if ana hasn't been cucking tanks just as hard since the start of 5v5. Ana has made a large contribution to how miserable tank is in 5v5 and it's likely suzu might have been put it in the game because the devs knew ana would make too many tank matchups unplayble. Also, many of the siutations where kiri is able to hold on to suzu until the exact right moment are the same ones where ana is able to hold sleep and/or anti until the exact right moment. They just typically fuck over different things. Remember how ana sleep used to negate almost the entire value of bob and even the new 3s duration is enough for everyone to avoid an ult that has one of the longest charge times in the game?
The ironic thing about my comment however, is that I love playing kiri but still mostly agree with you. Anyone who has played heroes like tracer JQ or illari are familiar with being unable to ult until suzu is out and all they can do is pray that the fight isn't already lost by the time it's used. It's incredibly lame. But play something like ashe and you'll eventually feel the same way about ana sleep. I still do agree that the devs should at least consider changes to lamp, suzu and life grip though. Maybe grip shouldn't make people untargetable, suzu shouldn't cleanse effects, and lamp shouldn't last as long as a whole zarya grav, at least precise timing and target selection would matter more then. But I don't like all this being framed in the context that ana is design perfection.
I've made videos talking about Ana's Nade against tanks like roadhog and their kits not being provided with ways to outplay the Nade to make it feel rewarding as well you just didn't watch them. the problem with Ana's Nade isn't just that it's powerful but certain tanks have no way to outplay it. rein can predict and block it and so can winston, orisa, zarya, etc... the problem isn't the Nade it's giving players the feeling that they could have outplayed their situation. i focus on suzu because suzu affects everyone and not like Nade which is a hard counter for some but a mild nuisance for others.
EDIT: forgot to add Ana using Nade leaves her incredibly vulnerable to a dive or attack. Kiriko using suzu can still TP 30m through walls to an ally every 7 seconds and is one of the best duelists in the game leading to a lot more frustration around her.
My issue with these "supports are too strong" is youd cry and moan if your supports were dead every fight. The better i get and climb at this game the more i understand why brig was as busted as she came out. Majority of the supports cant defend themselves against dive and then get verbally abused for dying. Maybe yall didnt play during early OW but 5 dps and 1 support was common in ranked cause SUPPORTS COULDNT CARRY. And since they brought in role queue supports had to have the capability of fighting back. Dive at its strongest had lucio zen as the supports because everyone else was useless and zen was just to discord an enemy and then die when he got dove. Great experience for supports indeed. Support finally gets some teeth to bite back and now all the tracers and genjis are crying that they cant bully supports for free anymore.
I've been playing since friends and family beta of Overwatch in 2016 so i definitely know it's history. Benefit to being a game dev in SoCal.
It seems like people don't watch the entire video or somehow misunderstand still. i have said repeatedly that i want strong supports not frustrating ones. ones with kits that are more than 1 dimensional. Ana is the strongest among all the supports and I've never criticized her kit. She can duel, she can make plays, she can defend, she has a powerful ult that can be countered and she has inherent weaknesses. To say that i'd be crying and moaning is building up some sort of straw man argument to feel better about your own opinion or perhaps being a support main i don't know. I am asking to rework certain supports to give them more choice and agency by expanding what they can do so it's not limited to just denying kills for free. to have those same abilities somehow be changed so they could either be a proactive or predictive ability as well as reactive. giving supports more choice makes them stronger but when supports have more choice it means tanks and dps do as well.
if you can watch this entire video and miss what i'm saying then maybe this won't matter but if you didn't watch the whole thing i talk about this exact issue at the 25 minute mark with lifeweaver and expanding his kit to give him an ability that works in ways to help his team but also defend himself. i highly encourage you to watch that part and see how i am trying to advocate for stronger support heroes with better kits because you couldn't be more wrong with what you said.
In overwatch 1 the opening would be clips of zarya bubble, and the video would be complaining about shields. Glad nothings changed
I've been playing since 2016 and never seen high elo players complain about zarya bubbles. shields yeah but that was a balance issue.
people should make videos and content critiquing live service games. after all it's an iterative product and there are always things that can be improved upon and making content helps devs figure out what to focus on. as with all iterative products the goal isn't perfection but positive progress.
game devs are not people who went to get a masters degree in game design. they're regular people and regular gamers. they are bound to make mistakes and great ideas can come from anyone and they watch content and share it around the office like everyone else.
i say all this because comments like this come off as "people just like to complain" which comes off as dismissive. when that is ignoring a lot of the progress that was made in the game came from people being vocal. people shouldn't stop complaining about things that make the game less fun. it's how we improve the game.
Single target, requires teamwork, has counterplay
goats, double shield were always an issue of suppports being too strong, stacking aoe healing, invulnerability cooldowns, its what dumbs down the gameplay loop and makes it less fun
support playes have to keep track of every dps cooldown, so why are dps players bothered by keeping track of just 2?
for suzu. its not even a one tap ability, the timing is disgusting, twice the delay as ana granade.
dps characters are way more onedimentional, reason why i dont play them:
tracer: hold the off angle till something is low
reaper: tp into the backline, separate or kill the support, fade out
widow: click heads
hanzo: hold a mid range off angle and aim
the only character that are as complex and can be contested with skill are current mei, echo and genji
dps whine and bitch because they are used to supports being target practice in this game, reason why it was an awfull role to play and didnt have a playerbase till ow 2
You ever spend a whole team fight diffing a tank in a dual only to have their health completely reset every 12 seconds?
You actually think there was a lack of support players until overwatch 2?
@@arinrobinson3898 it had the shortest queue in all overwatch one, i played since atackers where decided by ¨the coin¨
even now its easier to climb on support due to the lack of players present, there is simply way less people to fill the ladder than dps, even now
@@KCrucis Tank had the shortest queue time and there's stats from overwatch in their 6v6 blog to back that up. my support queue time is also the longest of them all.
if you've been playing that long i would hope you had a better understanding of the game but you grossly oversimplify the choices you have as a dps while making suzu out to be some difficult ability. you literally press E at the ground when someone gets low or an ult is used. it's not that deep.
DPS heroes all have to take risks and off angles. which angles they take and who they target. after that how they use their abilities matters. do they go for more reliable targets and damage or do they take a risk going for someone high value? do they use their defensive ability to get out or to try and win the duel with someone? this is player choice and it's a good thing. risk vs reward.
support heroes with immortalities sit at the back healing and doing damage from behind their tank and dps and if anyone gets low press E. they are in the safest position from the start. there is no risk, it's easy to do, and most of their ults guarantee value and can't be countered.
most other heroes have an interesting dynamic of how they use their skills. cassidy has his flash and he has choice, flash tracer before recall or after? bait a few blinks and then throw it or try to catch her early? tracer you try to dodge and predict the flash with blinks or recall. there's a lot of choice back and forth between the two that allow for both players to feel like they outplayed the other.
a duel with kiriko is try to dodge her kunai which can two tap you, shoot her enough to where she suzu's, she tp's away. it's a no risk lose lose situation for tracer. top it off the person dueling the support is probably taking a huge risk as kiriko most likely wont' be on the front lines. that's the gameplay loop with kiriko. she has to be really bad and extremely mess up to die and this is what immortalities do to the game. you're not trying to outplay your opponent you're just trying to do so much damage that they use their abilities so you can then use yours. hence the 1 dimensional problem. it's an extremely forgiving role.
i don't think you understand dps or tank role enough to not understand the frustration these abilities bring. you say dps whine and bitch but i feel like i was very fair in my criticism and even offered ideas on how to make supports stronger but also feel more fair and instead of responding with any valid counter points in an objective way you ran fast to the comments to complain about dps players. this a major pot calling the kettle black kind of moment.
dps only have to track 2 abilities? good joke. They have to track two abilities from each support. I promise you a dps player is tracking every cd more than you unless your sitting in the back of the map playing lifeweaver. If a dps makes a single mistake they die. supports have an extra bailout button and overblown kits. Dps track every single ability used so they know when they are allowed to play the game.
Your fundamental argument doesn't make sense to me and that's why we disagree. Baiting out the bubble has existed almost as long as Overwatch has, it's okay that Zarya can stop a D.VA bomb off cooldown but not Kiri? It's not because it's a reactionary ability (which we both agree bubble is) so I don't think that reactionary abilities are fundamentally flawed, I don't think that a reactionary ability makes you have the illusion of choice at all. Every player on a team has a role, and you make a point that, because suzu exists you can't make a play for yourself, and I have to raise the point that you're playing a team game, making an opening for your team is the ENTIRE game. You make openings by pushing, creating space, kiting the enemy out, baiting abilities, baiting ults for ult economy. So your solution of a complete rework IS a solution to your problem, but your problem is really close to being about having to play as a team, and as a result, pushes the game away from that team based push and pull rhythm the game has, so you're pushing for a different type of game that isn't really Overwatch.
And I'm not trying to state your argument for you, or what you like and dislike about the game, but I do wonder if what your desired changes to the game support what the game has always been or push it in an entirely different direction.
you're ignoring how bubbles are a resource zarya wants and has to use and is also single target. suzu is reactionary only and she doesn't want to use it proactively or predictively forcing this problem.
i'm pushing what is good game design. there are simple game design principles and rules we're taught to use to encourage players to lose and want to queue back up again. immortalities go against those basic principles.
I'm sorry, while i do believe suzu is problematic, its very bloated, moat your points were very selfish. Yes these abilities you've touched on (suzu, lamp, and even grip) are very frustrating at times, to say its makes a 1 dimensional game play loop is wrong to me. There are many characters and cd's that can kill so fast, it does not matter. There are characters that can easily bait these cd's, and punish after. No character, or player, shoud always get reward. This is a team game, where team plays should be the overall reward, players in this community need to understand that.
All the options you presented in your example are still valid options. It is unlikely if you 4-5 man ult a team, that suzu saves them all. At most 3, but probably 2, but that opens plays for your team. So many characters have cd's you need to force to engage with them, while they still have options. I think kiri using suzu is more can be more skillful than a genji deflect, CAN BE.
This isn't by any means so binary as you paint it. Widow, cass, junk, ashe, and others have such short ttk's just at the dps role. Plus many tanks have insta kills, that these long cd abilities just can't always be reliable. They absolutely take good game knowledge to really take advantage of.
Again i will restate they are frustrating. But so is shooting a sheid, or your favorite tracer is insanely frustrating for many characters. As well as recall is absolutely a get out of jail free card at times. I do think suzu needs to lose one of its aspects, either the cleans or the invulnerability, but its not because of one demonsional gameplay. I honestly don't mind lamp, i think it usually doesn't do much, and i certainly have no issues with grasp.
I think the idea of "i didn't feel rewarded, because i didn't get the kill, but we won the fight" is certainly a one dimensional way to think. Thats honestly my biggest problem with your video, you've approached it with a selfish and negative mindset. This entire game is about taking and controlling space, its to take away the your opponents options. Thats how any team game works, whoever dictates the fight has the advantage. So if there is a kiri you counter suzu by dictating when she uses it, not letting her choose when.
Your fruit will come from your rank, playstyle, meta, hero choice, and many other factors. Characters amd abilities you find frustrating, might not be frustrating to others. Where the majority of the player base suzu isn't frustrating, while sombra was massively frustrating.
You made a long video and expressed your thoughts well. But ultimately the points just didn't land. It was so subjective, and full of opinions. Which yes, it's your channel and you have every right to say them. I think you might need to approach this with a less selfish view point.
Sorry if the punctuation isn't great, I've always been behind in terms of writing. But i hope its understandable
first point, other heroes aren't about baiting out abilities as they use theirs proactively to try and secure kills leaving them vulnerable where immortalities are reactive ones. there are also other ways to play around them like blocking, dodging, absorbing, reflecting, etc... and it's always been a team game where team play should be rewarded but in terms of game design if you say the only way for a player to win certain situations is to rely on their team you create a toxic environment in which players will naturally blame their teammates instead of themselves for their mistakes and they wouldn't be wrong. overwatch wasn't always this way but it's becoming that way so it's just bad game design.
second point, i don't know how to take you seriously that deflect is at all nearly as powerful as suzu... i play in masters and a single suzu combined with healing negated a 5 man grav in one of my games this week against zarya. deflect can't do that and deflect is a predictive ability which is much harder to use with many weaknesses. suzu has no weakness or way to outplay it. the only solution is force her to use it which is bad design.
third point on tracer, maybe it's cause i'm a tracer main but i find her incredibly easy to deal with. it takes so many hours to get good with her you rarely find great ones. recall is not a get out of jail free card as it still only puts her back in place 3 seconds ago and that means in that time she has to make a play in a small window many of which don't gain any value. i have an entire montage of pulse bombing tracers in their recall position so calling it a get out of jail free card is kind of funny to me. she's incredibly vulnerable the moment she pops out of recall and most of the time they overstay their time making it an easy kill. forcing her recall makes her incredibly weak and vulnerable. she also is most likely to get one shot. there are many ways to play around a tracer especially in overwatch 2. kiriko does not have the same vulnerabilities as other heroes and she's much easier to play.
to be honest i have a hard time taking your criticisms with much seriousness. you seemed to miss a lot of the points i've made in defense of your hero. you didn't make any points that actually address player frustration and many of the frustrations i'm referencing are from players where at high elo suzu is just not fun but denying kills and plays is never fun in an fps. especially when it's so easy to do. it's also what makes tank not fun to play. if you selfishly just want to say you like it just how it is and you don't want it changed sure but if i can admit hog, widow, sombra, mauga, and orisa isn't fun for anyone but the people playing them why is it so hard for kiri players to do the same?
your core argument is really flimsy. I get what you mean that you can use the ult in all kinds of ways to benefit your team but the enemy team having the option to suzu makes your team's tactics one-dimensional. It sounds like it make sense, but one could say that there are many different ways to "bait a suzu", just like there are many ways to use JQ Ult. Using the JQ ult is a lot more fun than baiting out a suzu, so I can understand your frustration leading you to make a 30 minute long video, but you're not getting at the real issues plaguing Overwatch's hero design.
Also you fail to acknowledge a situation where JQ ult is what baits the suzu, then your junkrat kills 3 of them bc there's no suzu and the whole team is looking at you, JQ. Around 15 minutes in I start to feel confused about what your main point is beyond a counterpoint to "bait the suzu". Zarya bubble is an AOE. "It's not fun" is true for you but may be false for others. They aren't ruining the experience for everyone else, just you, it seems to get you very heated so maybe take a break from the games. "you dictate how everyone else takes action" is a very common scenario in overwatch beyond baptiste, kiriko and lifeweaver. I don't play doomfist or ball but I know flashbang and hack completely dismantle their playstyle. Just like the suzu for jq, doomfist needs to play around the hack. In fact, this scenario has been around since before overwatch 2, it's called playing a hero shooter where you have 20+ characters with different abilities with a plethora of in-game effects. seriously think you need to calm down and take down this video cause it's kinda embarrassing.
I've made a bunch of videos also talking about issues with road hog. Not sure why you're telling me to calm down that's just how I sound. The other abilities you mention I also go over why they give players the feeling of fairness because they are proactive abilities they want to use but also are not incredibly strong. I'm beginning to think either you didn't watch it fully or you just didn't want to understand the point.