Our Mathematical Universe: Brian Greene & Max Tegmark
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- Опубліковано 25 кві 2024
- #BrianGreene #MaxTegmark
Join us for a spirited conversation between Brian Greene and Max Tegmark exploring the controversial possibility that mathematics and reality are one and the same.
This program is part of the Big Ideas series, supported by the John Templeton Foundation.
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The nice thing about any conversation with Max is … he can’t go long without a smile.
I just came down to comment on Max's smile, and here is the top comment. Group hug 🤗
I’z having a moody night, was channel surfing, saw this program, was meh (quite familiar with this topic), saw your comment & thought: “Yeah, I need a smile”…
.. throughly enjoyed the program & Max (with whom I concur concerning this question), smile in tow, played a significant part.. thx J A. 💙
Group Hug 🤗
He’s great 😁
like dupers delight.
His voice is so cute
Imagine being at a dinner party with these guys. I could have these discussions for hours.
Thank you for sharing with the world
✌️😎🇦🇺
Brian... your humility and grace here truly warms my heart... you are certainly and awesome human being... I have bought your books and enjoyed them immensely, may the universe smile on you!
100% true
Yeah I really have to agree with you 100%
Agreed
He looks worried - this scares me.
I cant be the only one who falls asleep wakes up and something like this is playing....
I go to sleep to them...love this stuff even though I don't understand any of it. There is so much insipid stupidity in today's world, and all this anti science stuff trumpers are pushing, that I just like to hear INTELLIGENT people talking.
Me too
Me tooo ooooh ohh oh oh
yeppers, that would be I, somehow I like to think I'm getting subconsciously smarter but probably 'nahhhh'. ✨️
🙋🏾♂️
I'm so grateful that you offer these discussions to the world 💙 it's so interesting and thought provoking, thank you so much!
Why you are thankfull to this people sons of Cain ? They are destroying humans and all creations . With there crispr tech is dangerous to humans and everything that live on this planet .
Yes, we are so fortunate to live in a time when we can sit next to the great thinkers of our time and hear their thoughts.
Stop divided
I loved the show two weeks ago, and I was thrilled to see Max and you, Brian, in an hour-long conversation about math and reality. Thank you very much!
Excellent and an interview and discussion I've been waiting for. What jumped out at me especially was the repeated talk about humility. That word kept popping up. I think that in our negative culture, it is not PC to be non-humble. There are people who should rightly be humble: they are not exceptional or outstanding in anything. Then there are those who are not just good but great, at what they do or invent. I find it dishonest for such people to be so humble. In other words, humility is often overrated as always applicable to everyone. It's about the same as people who do something outstanding, and when complimented say "Oh, that's just a little thing" or similar. They feel they have to downplay what is a genuine accomplishment and worthy of being especially good or unique. It's dishonest to not admit it when something is such, and instead say "Thank you for the compliment." Those of us old enough to remember Mohamed Ali, the boxer, remember him saying after winning "I am the greatest!" And he was. An honest fact. As Dizzy Dean said, "If you've really done it, it's not bragging." Well, for myself, I like people who brag; I find it honest, as long as they aren't your typical blowhard talking fantasy, but based in fact.
I think neither of them is referring to the humility (or the hubris) of an individual, but rather the humility (or the hubris) of the entire human species ... and of science, etc. ... and even the humility (or the hubris) of a viewpoint.
I have such gratitude that these discussions are made available to us. Thank you for your considerable efforts.
You two are great! Watching those wheels chug and churn is (awesome). Brian, you are amazingly objective. You seem to have this ability to resist comfortable ownership of an idea, at least to a point that your willingness to ask questions and continue learning is obvious.
Max, you are great too, from a layman, your love of difficult questions definitely has not gone away. You smile with absolute excitement when you hear ideas. What a blessing you are for us. Both you and Brian, I want to make so clear, are appreciated so much for your abilities to Utilize Math to Discover, at the same time bring it down to Earth for us to enjoy.
Thank you Brian and Max for a wonderful conversation and letting us ride along! Love all that you do and share.
My title suggestion for next show: “Language - evolutions expression of thought”
Professor Greene is a world treasure. I hope he comes up with the theory of everything, and wins a Nobel prize.
That would be awesome.
He is a fantastic presenter of science. That is his niche. I don't think he does that much research anymore because he is like a mini celebrity in physics. He is one of the best known names, but they don't hand out Nobel prizes for noteriety. What he does, bringing theoretical physics to the masses, is an extremely important endeavor however
@@rugbyelite1361 just look at him .... liar
I think he deserves a Nobel prize in litterature : it is a real incredible litterary accomplishment to do what he does : offer the possibility to understand very complicated physics with words. Very few scientists could do this (Gamov, Abbott, …) and this deserves recognition !
I came up with it already but I want to give him a chance. 🤣😉
Two brilliant people, such a pleasure to listen in on a great conversation.
Extremely interesting! Many thanks.
We as human beings, but also complex animals, have to integrate thousands of signals (besides basic stimuli like vision, sound, smell ....) permanently almost instantaneously and our brain HAS to make a kind of summary with a specific outcome of all of that information in order to allow a being to position itselfs in this new context. Of coarse we have to perceive this integrated message otherwise it all would make no sense and we would simply not be aware that we "are". To be conscious is thus, according to me, an absolute must to be able to survive and it becomes gradually more complex when you clime up in the tree of animal hierarchie. Intelligence is something completely different. Often one says that being extremely logic is a kind of measure for intelligence; but there are other forms of intelligence in which for example making a useful connection between very distant topics helps to quickly solve a problem. Solving the mystery of consciousness is of great importance, but intelligence is so relative since soooo may intelligent people are stupid.
Why would that integration that you speak of require self-awareness? You say "absolute must" when I see no necessity at all.
Thank you Brian and Max for sharing your thoughts on this topic. Looking forward for your next topic "Language painting thoughts"
Years ago I saw a documentary that explored this very question, asking; did we discover maths or did we invent it. I think we discovered it. Maths is an inherent fact of reality and we simply adapted it to our natural way of understanding and communication. Taking the most basic example of maths; regardless of whether there's one of something or five, it doesn't matter whether anyone is around to describe this, its simply a fact that there are five, for example. If one disappears, moves away, there are now four.
What I've often wondered is how far can maths go in describing reality. Maths is essentially easy and natural as evident from there being extremely clever people, albeit few and far between compared to the general population, but its well within the capability of the human brain. I wonder how large a percentage of understanding reality this can take us. My favourite analogy is that we're like an insect on a seat of a airplane. We've done wonders in understand our immediate environment, but we haven't seen the cockpit, and the notion of actually flying the aircraft is way beyond our capability. As for understanding the mechanics of the engine... no chance!
this dialogue had more tension and suspense than the new Top Gun film. That being said, Dr Green's perspective on the existence of something made more sense to me. A thing exists if it has a physical feature that allows you to experiment it, or would allow you to experiment it if you could somehow bent space and time or travel through dimensions. I feel Max is referring to ideas being real, or "in existence", but ideas themselves are a description of what ultimately we call reality
I loved the talk a whole lot! Very thought-provoking. You both have brilliant minds, thank you 🙂 🌼
-Numerical linguistics
-Speaking in digits
-math and language, one and the same
-the united universe (or world) of mathematics
-understanding universality of the nature of mathematics
-math and the human experience (or condition)
-math in all and everything
-math and beyond our dimension
-everything as math
-The language of our mathematical universe
By: German Escalante
I can never get tired of watching these discussions and documentaries about the nature of reality, universe etc. To be honest I have a bit of envy for people who are the greatest minds of our time with such intelligence allowing them to be the pioneers of contemporary science. Greene and Tedmark are for sure two of these people. Thanks for this wonderful talk. As for the title of the next topic (language) I would suggest "The thought that gave us language".
You are being unfair to yourself! Reading you shows that you are very intelligent. These dudes are highly educated and focused. I like them too but I sincerely do not find them more intelligent than you, others reading this and me. Humbleness can be unscientific. Arrogance is never acceptable.
2 of my favorite people to listen to, and when put together... such a lovely conversation
Two people fundamentally disagreeing on their viewpoint but still coming together to understand the other point of view, and at times admire the insight the other side offers. This is what the world needs more of! One of the best discussions I've seen lately!
Additionally, I've always considered mathematics as a language, very special and distinct from other languages in that it can and does completely quantify things. As a formal logic, we see that mathematics is as real as logic itself.
This is the most exciting conversation I've watched for years..I love you guys & have followed you both for ages now . Great stuff 👏👍👌🙌😀
I'm in love with the Science Festival because it exposes the magic of science. It exposes the garden where the incubation of theory takes shape. A passerby would call the roots of all of these conversations boil down
philosophy but, it is a laboratory of the the mind that relentlessly pushes the confines of the human condition in the pursuit of persective. It is a beautiful contorsion for the purpose of a establishing a measurable quantity. To me it is what defines science itself and I am grateful for having my eyes opened and stretched beyond my passing by.
I love it that you, Brian, and Max smile! Math is always a topic to smile about.
Max Tegmark: Can't you see? It's all mathematics, bro!
Brian Greene: When you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. And mathematics is just a really awesome hammer, my dude.
I wonder if we could replace Max's use of the word "Math" with the word "Framework". Everything exists within a framework and that framework is defined with a "Logic".
@@danielm5161 Don't really see how you can get the Standard Model with a framework
@@2CSST2 The parameters of the standard model (weight of electron, spin counts etc.) is what I am calling the framework.
,and a Turbine is nothing more than the Hash for a spatial change.
All is math. A lot of y’all are pushing back because it’s a scary thing to think about.
I was amazed at how math can proof out the way the world works when I took up to two years of chemistry and up to multi variable calculus in college. It work and flowed so well, kinda unreal.
The Spoken Mind. Dear Brian, I've read all your books. The Elegant Universe blew my mind. And the more recent were just wonderful. Thank you.
Kudos to the World Science Festival for another outstanding & thought provoking show. I look forward to the future episodes outlined. Title for the language show "Speaking Your Mind in a Universe of Language". Also it would be great to see Max & David on together again. Thanks for continuing to inform & educate. Stay safe.
Brian and Max, my two favorite physicists. Bright, beautiful, charming and brilliant.......
I'm thankful to have listened to this stream.I'm a huge fan of Brian and Max yet they don't know that I exist so either they don't take my mathematics into equation or I don't exist!
But ... I'm sure that in at least one of the parallel universe of one of the level of multiverse Max mentions in his book you 3 are best friends!!! 🤭😜
The best reply
I've studied the relationship between segments in human languages and their meanings (phonosemantics, or 'sound symbolism' (which is really a form of iconicity) for the past 40+ years. In that time I've discovered that the phonemic systems of human languages underlyingly behave as if they were 'periodic tables' of primitive meanings (varying in the degrees and types of quantization of the acoustic spectrum). Looking primarily at lexical items known variously as ideophones, mimetics, expressives etc., I've found that in general across human languages, in this class of words, normally initial labial stops make reference to loss of confinement/containment (or threat of same), where the internal pressure inside some boundary surface is greater than that outside (as in a balloon or a blister, for example), giving a rounded contour as we see a minimization of surface area to volume. In such languages, in consonant-vowel-consonant roots, final labial stops have a reversal of the temporal developmental implication- so one sees the acquisition of material, energy, etc., or maintenance of same. Initial dental or alveolar stops generally detail blunt impacts potentially or actually causing impact tremors in some target object. And so on through the phonological system. It's basically all mechanical physics at this level, though this can be extended to social physics as well. Part of the motivation comes from mastication/deglutition (chewing and swallowing), where our teeth are differentiated to do different jobs in materials processing, and articulatory positions in the oral cavity connote the functions of these teeth here and the material properties of their target food morsels. Another motivation comes from the way our oral cavities are used to manipulate the airflow over articulators during speech- involving changes of air pressure (which is why labial stops are commonly used to describe, in mimetic words, powered flight in animals- the way that a wing or fin deals with air pressure on its surfaces to give lift or thrust. On and on and on. There are always exceptions to such mappings, but statistically they are in much lower numbers than those that follow the rules. When you put all these mapping together in the root, you get a kind of vector equation that gives the actual meaning of the root. Historical change can obfuscate these motivations in normal word classes in languages like English, or Chinese, but I see this as a kind of encryption meant to stop outsiders from interpreting our communications- a kind of rule-based scrambling (akin to the way you start from a home position with a Rubik's Cube, and then scramble the faces. If you know the procedure, you can get back to the home configuration without too many moves. The type of motivation I outlined above also has been found in remnant form in the genetic code. The forms and functions of the amino acid side chains which are coded by the codon triplets have their own physical and mechanical properties which help to determine how peptides and proteins fold into tertiary configurations. But because of other factors (like refolding by chaperonins) there has to be a secondarily imposed 'aftermarket' code. This would explain why the chaperonins have been so tightly conserved in terms of their own amino acid strings over billions of years, and why there are only a few types in any one cell.
Wrote my undergrad capstone for Philosophy in universal language. I noted more than once that science is the great epitome of human communication. It is more common than any other language. Glad to see Physics and Philosophy being emphasized again. It ebbs and flows throughout history. Love Greene and his books. Really helped me understand more about Physics.
You guys are so brilliant. Much love. Totally on the edge of my seat for both sides of the argument, absolutely subtle and nuanced undertaking of this incredible topic with genuine care taken to understanding eachothers positions. Classy, and intellectually adventurous.
Edit: Also im pretty sure Brian Greene is a closeted Platonist
That was a great conversation. I watched "Does math reveal reality" too. And now I am looking forward to next one. I thought mathematics and beauty, or aesthetics could be a nice topic too. Thank you very much. .
One of the other areas I work with has to do with the mathematical motivations of shell structures in atomic electronic and nuclear systems. Viewed from the perspective of a pure harmonic oscillator and ignoring other complexifying effect, in the spherical atomic nucleus all shell sizes are successive doubled triangular numbers from the Pascal Triangle. No exceptions. So 1s=2, 1p=6, 1d2s=12, 1f2p=20, 1g2d3s=30, 1h2f3p=42, 1i2g3d4s=56, and 1j2h3f4p=72. This is also why their running sums give the 'magic numbers' marking shell completions as doubled tetrahedral numbers from the Pascal Triangle. The numbers are all doubled because we are counting spin-opposed PAIRS of nucleons, because unlike in the electron system, nucleons of the same type (protons and neutrons in their own different shells) pair up immediately when another becomes available. In the electronic system orbital lobes all fill singly BEFORE allowing pairing (which is why we talk about half-filled versus completely filled orbitals). Anyway, there are all sorts of consequences from what I wrote above. For example if one computes the total energies of these spherical quantum harmonic nuclear shells (that is total nucleon occupancy times their energy level), the differences between the energy levels are all 3x square numbers. From no shell to 1s, with 2 nucleons at 1.5 h-bar omega, we have zero energy to 3h-bar omega, which is 3x1, 1 being its own square. Then 1p with 6 nucleons at 2.5 h-bar omega, we get 15 h-bar omega total, and 15-3=12, and 12 is 3x4, where 4 is the square of 2. 1d2s has 12 nucleons at 3.5, giving a total of 42 h-bar omega. 42-15=27, which is 3x9, where 9 is the square of 3. And so on, without exception in this simple model. It also turns out that one can extend this model to include ellipsoidally deformed nuclei, both prolate and oblate. The so-called oscillator number, which in the western world consists of the numerator, detailing the relative extent of the matter wave in the polar direction of the ellipsoid, versus the denominator, detailing the relative extent of the matter wave in the equatorial direction, actually defines the way doubled triangular shell components come together to make new shells for the deformed harmonic oscillator nuclei. The sphere has an oscillator ratio of 1:1 (since the sphere is the same in all directions), so each doubled triangular component is used only ONCE to make a shell (numerator). And there is one magic number for every one new doubled triangular number increment. With a deformed nucleus with an oscillator ratio (OR) of 2:1 (twice as long as wide), each doubled triangular component occurs TWICE in sequence to create a new shell, so 2, 2, 6, 6, 12, 12, 20, 20, 30, 30 etc. And with an oscillator ratio of 3:1 (hyperdeformed), each component occurs TRICE in sequence to generate new shells, so 2, 2, 2, 6, 6, 6, 12, 12, 12, etc. The oblate shells are a bit more complicated. For an oblate shell with an OR of 1:2, there is a doubled triangular number difference between every SECOND shell, and with an OR of 1:3 between every THIRD and so on, EXCEPT at the very start of the shell-filling sequence. Until there are as many magic numbers as the size of the denominator of the oscillator ratio, every shell size is doubled triangular, without exception when the OR is 1/N. With complex OR's, where neither the numerator nor denominator are unity, then ALL THREE of these rules come into play. With this the entire quantum harmonic oscillator system can be worked out with nothing but paper and pen (or pencil), you don't even need a calculator. Interestingly, the Pascal Triangle involvement here is no accident. In fact the quantum harmonic oscillator equation ALWAYS delivers number of stable states (our 'shell sizes') that are terms (here doubled) in Pascal Triangle diagonals. Every new dimension in the oscillator system pushes you one diagonal deeper into the Pascal Triangle. Then with the more realistic models of the nucleus which include corrections for spin-orbit coupling, it turns out that the sizes of the so-called 'intruder levels' that drop down from the next higher into the next lower shell are sized exactly so as to increase the size of the latter to the very next larger doubled triangular number. That is 1g9/2 (10 nucleons) adds to 1f2p (20) to yield 30. 1h11/2 (12 nucleons) adds to 1g2d3s (30) to give 42. And so on. The only exception happens at the end of the protonic shell sequence, where when one expects a drop of 12 moves into the preceding shell (from 126 to 114), one instead sees a drop of 20 (to 106). 20 is still a doubled triangular number, this 'anticipation' may point to an alternative sequence of insertions we might take advantage of in the future. Also interestingly, in all case but this one exception, the insertions of intruder levels all take place EXACTLY after three orbital partials have been completed in the previous shell. Until there ARE three orbital partials, there aren't any intruders inserted. Plenty more- all math. And the 'best' depiction of the electronic periodic system is a tetrahedron of close-packed spheres, one per element. In the 'left-step' periodic table depiction of the then elderly French polymath Charles Janet from the late 1920's, the s-block elements compose the RIGHT edge of the table, rather than the left as per usual. This depiction follows the physical introduction (ideally) of new orbital types rather than chemical behavior. And every other period in this table ends with an element that has an atomic number that is also a tetrahedral number (4, 20, 56, *120). The intermediate numbers are, following Doebereiner's triads (the atomic number version), are all the arithmetic means of the flanking tetrahedrals. This is because the lengths of all these periods is half/double square (ambivalently) so two dual periods of same length give you a square number of elements, and the running sums of squares give you tetrahedrals. It turns out that although there are numerous ways to arrange the spheres (representing elements) in a tetrahedron, there are a handful that allow you to keep Mendeleev's line intact (that is, no line breaks in the sequence of atomic numbers) that are also geometrically regular, and interestingly here as well, you can draw a straight line from one sphere to another through the tetrahedron that marks the beginnings and ends of new Janet Left-Step periods. Oh, and one more thing- if you take Fibonacci numbers as atomic numbers, then every such pairing up through 89 marks the first member of a half-orbital, without exception, The ODD Fib atomic numbers are in the left half-orbital (where there is only one electron per lobe) and the EVEN Fib atomic numbers are in the right half-orbital (where you start to see paring of spin-opposed electrions). 89 (the last Fib atomic number of a real, known element) is also the last element where this trend works. There is a mirror image trend for related LUCAS atomic numbers- up to 18, all these mark the LAST members of half-orbitals, with the same even/odd mapping to left and right half orbitals. After 18 this gets off-track (though with behavioral 'fixes'). 29 and 47 (coinage metals copper and silver respectively) are in the same column/group, and both have so-called 'anomalous' electronic configurations with full d-orbitals, despite being positionally one move to the left of where the mapping trend should put them. Then osmium, atomic number 76, though a d6 element, behaves in the monatomic gaseous state as if it were a noble gas with a p6 configuration.
I know I already commented but it's my birthday and I was given your book as a gift! I'm super excited to look into your mind a little bit and have already read the first chapter. I can relate so much to this and have even asked myself some of the exact same questions. I cannot wait to read more!
This is a great discussion. My father and I had similar discussions starting with "where's up ?" The question of existence and is math real is the same question one can ask about computers. Does the hardware exist? Of course. Does the software exist ? It is not physical certainly but with the right hardware the existence of software is clear. Mathematics is akin to the software. It is not physical per se but the concepts are physically expressed on paper, in computing machines etc.
Good analogy, I had the same thought. In order for the software to work it needs to run inside the hardware. The reason physics is struggling to push to the next frontier is they're trying to discover the mathematical equations to also describe the hardware i.e. what creates space-time (hardware) what exactly is time and why do feel it going from one moment to moment (hardware and software?) what is consciousness (this is most likely extremely sophisticated software that we haven't been able to grasp yet) very thought provoking and extremely incredible to ponder on
Streamed 2 days ago??? I just saw this live 5 min ago. Did I go back in time to watch this live then jump to now??? I don't know.
It streamed (began) 104 minutes ago, and finished just a few minutes ago.
Well, the assignment at the end of the s to know the math for time travel. Obviously you got it right, and at the end you’ll loop back again. Now you’re stuck forever.
Lol
Thank you for a very interesting discussion. Hope to hear many more to come
Brian your voice is so reassuring to me and I fall asleep feeling like everything is okay❤
I’ve recently heard a theory from my prof. about life being akin to little eddies/whirlpools in the entropic river of time.
Wasn’t sure if this was fringe or something that more well-known physicists subscribe to? And if there’s any mathematics that supports the notion?
Sounds like the "vortex" hypotheses that I think were popular in the 1800s and then had a resurgence in pop-sci in the 1970s.
Fringe for sure. It's a cute metaphor, but doesn't get you far.
@@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself you probably mean that you fail to see how that would get *you* far, rather than using this _borderline_ condescending affirmation, about a topic even great people such as Brian and Max disagree but overall, stay humble and open-minded...
Yes, I just read the whirlpools represent the parallel universes, that on someone's comments on the Philip k dick Metz, France speech video
Great talk, I like these two as they represent different poles of thought on many theories at the forefront of physics.
I wonder if we could replace Max's use of the word "Math" with the word "Framework". Everything exists within a framework and that framework is defined with a "Logic".
@@danielm5161 kind of like that 'framework' is a tapestry of space-time and fields which use 'logic'(maths) to describe it.
I began my adult learning with Brian Greene and even though you can never say you finish learning; I will say I sort of finished with Max Tegmark. Somewhere between I read Hawking amongst others. I even read Robert Lanza and that wasn’t a waste of time. I watched a documentary with Brian Greene and that sparked my initial interest. Then I read Hawking who taught me about Conways Game of Life. It was then that I realized that automata exist in “mathematical cyberspace” a term I use to explain where math plays itself out. Then I asked myself this question…. Do we need a computer screen for automata to exist? Or is the computer just a tool for us to view this math? It was then that I realized that we don’t need a computer screen and we don’t need a programmer. I wondered if we were actually conscious automata in a different but similar Game of Life existing somewhere in “mathematical cyberspace”…. Then I remembered what Robert Lanza had actually thought that we take information from “out there” process it “in there” and we somehow animate the mathematics around us to look, feel, touch, taste, and smell like an animated, real universe. So then I googled is math all there is, and I found Max Tegmark. It’s a TOE and that’s why I say that I finished with Max Tegmark.
I will also say that the best description ever of Max Tegmark’s MUH was actually written by Brian Greene the Hidden Reality.
I personally am the type that discovered their "calling" too in my youth. But I think I was more the type that wanted to stick my head out of a window and feel the feelings of Flight. Call that whatever, but like other family members dating back to Captain John Smith, I had a desire to Command a ship and Challenge the Obstacles of Nature (Weather). At 17 I flew helicopters, but transition to aircraft. at 18 I became commercially rated so I could make a little cash with my skill. I was Teaching at 21 and an Airline Transport Pilot by age 24. Math to me was certainly a tool to help me in my career, but not my calling to focus. It did however remain throughout my life as a very important tool. I did at a point in my career, jump ship from Aircraft Pilot, to Aeronautical Engineering, where I spent another 23 years with Boeing. I retired and bought a Sportfishing yacht, the perfect choice for a retiring pilot. Same tools, but operating not too much faster than 20 kts, I keep her on course and don't think I'll every run out of Diesel. Thank you guys, Brian and Max, you are both Great Professors, like Carl Sagan was very gifted.
This took a left turn real quick from mathematics to the philosophy of hubris vs humility
I always enjoy the way Max manages to seem like he might just be taking the piss.
Haha his father would be giggling if he wasn't busy being born again and continuing the task
Evolution is relentless because entropy is relentless.
This is like the epitome of human evolution. Listening to Brian Green & Max Tegmark and how even they kept and open mind even changed their own perspectives is gold...It's as if keeping and open mind drives evolution forward.
Thanks for all your efforts with the foundation in producing such quality content so often.
Title suggestions for the language piece:
Language: Nature or Nurture?
From Cave Paintings to Emojis, LOL: The Evolution of Human Language
Speaking Your Mind: Dissecting The Science and Art of Language
38:00 I once saw a bubble entertainer blow 6 bubbles all connected to each other and what happened in the centre was that a cube was formed. Thus a cube exists right. Surely the same thing could apply with the dodecahedron. Or was Prof Greene only talking about naturally occuring forms?
Hello Mr.Greene, thank you for all these beauiful programs that all of you at WSF are giving to us.
Here is my suggestion for the title of the next program: "What came first, Language or Thought?"
Anyway, apart from the title, I'm sure the next talk will be very interesting.
Once again, thank you because in these times a larger amount of people need this kind of brain nourishment.
What a wonderful conversion. Thankyou.
Yes, but neither of them *converted* the other to see things their way. :o)
@@stevennovakovich2525 I wasn't expecting them too. These chats reveal to me how these fine minds work.
"Speaking of Speaking and Thinking of Thinking" for the Language program. I can't wait!
2 of my favorite nerds..💗💗💗💗💗
"The consciousness of the spoken thoughts" - A suggestion for the Title of next discussion with Noam Chomsky. And thanks for making these discussions happen!
Watching this episode only now but man these ideas are so thought provoking, totally love it. I never suspected I would be interested in these questions on the border between physics & kind of philosophy but having read Brian's Until the end of time I changed my perspective and now actively seeking literature on these topics. Thanks Brian!
There is no border between physics and philosophy. Physics works and philosophy hasn't returned a single useful result since 500BC.
I really love how Brian speaks. The way he enunciates words and his pauses. He's such a good example of the advice that a good habit to get into is pausing instead of saying um/uh. I also agree with both. I wouldn't necessarily say "math" itself IS out there. I would say the patterns are definitely real, and we use language to invent a way to talk about the relationship between such patterns. I don't think it makes a difference that one is called one and two is called two. I don't think that is real. I think what is real is simply the distinction between the things you are talking about are different, and that when you talk about it the value of their distinction, ie the distance between the values themselves, is consistent with how you label the value. So it doesn't matter that one is one and two is two, it does matter that they are different because thats what's real- and it doesn't matter that one and two are "one" apart, what matters is it's consistent with how we talk about these kinds of values throughout because what is real is simply that they are distinctly different, ie the spectrum of how different they are. Like trees; it doesn't matter what we call pine and maple, what's real is that they are different and how different they are. However in thinking about QFT, if everything is actually at s fundamental level just fields that are vibrating, well - maybe those are real physical structures that are purely mathematical and what is real is the value itself.
I like Max’s explanation of consciousness and I can imagine it’s more then likely true.
If love to hear his thoughts! Where can I look?
Substrate independent
@@quickquiz4217 UA-cam and any of the big search engine’s, I’ve watched him on lots of podcasts and interviews, there’s some on the world science festival too.
Every mathematical object is conscious(panpsychism). It's not that there are functions on our bodies that are not conscious, but they are packets of consciousness that are not connected and therefore not aware of one another. This is demonstrated with the "corpus callosum cut" experiment.
If AI develops consciouness: What is love?
Or God?
Thank you both for sharing and enjoying
Hi Brian and Max. Thank you so much for a brilliant discussion! I love all your work. Kind wishes. Joan Nagase, Manchester, England.
Thanks for your content. It improves life for so many of us.
Title suggestions:
Thus Spoke Mankind.
How does language fit into the equation?
Was language invented or discovered?
Read Anil Seth's latest book "Being You" on neuroscience of consciousness.
That being said, I wish my brain could process math better. You two are among the best people on earth. Your physics / AI stances and conversations enthrall me. Things a simple man like me has no business putting thought into. So thank both of you very much.
Thanks for a great follow up. Really enjoying it. Title suggestion Lost in Translation - uncertainty in communication
1:34 ish Start time. :) Thank you for these videos, Brian! We love you, WSF.
I'm wondering if Brian Greene thinks that string theory is correct, I know it's his work and he's the expert. But being it's not a proven thing, I wonder if he thinks it's correct or still trying to find out?
I think he said at about 58:00 he didn't know if it was "right".
I'd guess that from an evolutionary perspective, language and music are a "chicken or the egg" pair of human traits. We rely on melodic (intervalic) function more with certain languages whereas rhythmic aspects in other languages are dominant. I know that with a.... well-placed pause, I can inspire more interest in what I'm saying. With more minor intervals I question my friend's declaration, and with more major intervals I indicate that I agree with him. Rhythmic subdivisions are very powerful in creating tension or showing sympathy, etc. We're rarely conscious of it, so deeply engrained in us.
This interplay between music and language is incredible to me. In English we don't have it, but in several other languages there are actually standard phonetic ways to communicate musical ideas. Middle Eastern percussion is incredibly complex, with such an emphasis on the phonetic characteristics of say, a set of tablas.
"I never had much to say, but I always said it with a guitar"
-The Dodos
I’m reminded of Plato’s alogory of the Divided Line in the Republic. 🤔😁 1:36:57. Thank you both. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
“In Cosmology we are off by a factor of 10 to the 120… This is the largest mismatch between theory and experiment in the history of science.” - Dr Michio Kaku.
Everything is math. Math is everything.
there is a relation 1 to 1 and onto between anything and math, sounds like true, they are the same thing, sounds like a big NO.
@@ivanleon6164 Where is your argument for that?
@@2CSST2 math exist in the universe, they are not same thing, is like saying language or ideas are the universe, is just pure game words. i just create one, of course you can always define a function that maps one element of a space to any building element of the universe, that would make a 1:1 onto function of the universe, but is just words.
@@ivanleon6164 but you're just affirming that, you have no evidence yourself. It could very well be that the universe itself is a mathematical structure, it would provide the best explanation for why it exists at all which is a sort of evidence for it, the universe exists because it couldn't possibly be otherwise and that's what math is: the freedom from contradiction. Do you have any other explanation for the existence of the universe that's as powerful?
Also math is definitely not like any other language or idea, the symbols used yes, but the patterns they describe themselves like the dodecahedron are beyond language and symbols. That's the mathematical structure, different from a mathematical language used to describe it.
Last point, you say you could 'just define' a function that maps 1:1 but that's easier said than done. Now it's really just words, give me the function that maps 1:1 with the behavior of the sun, meaning every state of every single particle. If you went ahead, you would actually hit a wall due to the randomness of quantum mechanics. The best you could do then is say: 'at this point the behavior is purely random'.
And that leads to the next point: the fact that pure randomness only arises at a very fundamental level. Instead, randomness could happen at every hierarchical level. Then you actually couldn't describe anything to any significant level with a function. The fact that it isn't like that is another evidence that the universe is a mathematical structure. And what's more, the randomness at the quantum level itself disappears if the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is true, which would mean reality would be purely non random, definitely making it clear that it could itself the ensemble of all possible mathematical structure.
@@2CSST2 i agree, i cant define it myself. Yes the universe is rigged by laws that can be described by math, I agree.
But I don't agree on the randomness, to be random there must be some source for that randomness, then how is decided, even that should follow rules, the randomness we describe is only to the incapacity to predict or to know that source rules.
Love it... It's in many ways a retelling of the Plato-Aristotle debate and the two-world problem. Always a pleasure to listen to Brian and Max.
YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SURGEON TO KNOW THE EARTH IS FLAT !!! ....NASA LIES !! N A S A STANDS FOR NOT ALWAYS TELLING TRUTHS !!
Awesome conversation guys, Thanks!
"The emergence of language" - as a title for your next episode
Hi Brian,
Thanks once more! On the subject of the title of the new series on language, i suggest one word “Logos”, in Greek this means language but also is the root for the word Logic. The ancients believed that these two are very much connected. I am curious to follow this series as i have a stern believe that the language we use greatly affects our thought capacity and patterns. I have felt this as an expat in various countries.
All the best
Kostis
28:07 the problem with that is we are not deciding 2+2=4 it’s that “1,1,1,1” combined will always be “1,1,1,1” we decided names for the sets but we did not decide the properties.
31:12 detectives that deduce assumptions that turn out true are in fact manufacturing evidence.
Kangaroo 🦘
Court ⚖️
Love the humility and open minds here! 💜 Would LOVE to see a conversation between Brian Greene and Bruce Greyson or Jim Tucker of The Division of Perceptual Studies at UVA Charlottesville on the nature of consciousness (and reality for that matter). Data such as that has to be accounted for in any accurate model of consciousness. Even better to have a panel discussion including them, Brian, Max, Tononi, Chalmers, Susskind, and someone representing contemplative insights (maybe Wallace again). Get at it from all sides with some system of checks and balances in place!
“Language, the gatekeeper of our thoughts”
“Language, gatekeeper of thought”
“Language, gatekeeper to the soul”
Really love this back and fourth dialogue.
Brilliant conversation and thank you for platter of interesting talks ahead.
My name suggestion for upcoming talk is' Let's Speak about SPEECH'.
If everything is describable by math, does it means - everything is math!? Than, you don’t have to search cosmos, you just search math to discover laws and premises of cosmos and nature itself! Does it mean, if something could be existed by math, in the same time it could be existed in reality!? Great conversation, thank you guys!
The physics we do are approximations and abstractions. We couldn't work the actual math of the universe from inside the same universe. It would be a paradox. So we need empirism. We can explore simpler realities that are not ours with math though. And yes, if it exists in math then it's reality, not necessarily ours, but some reality.
Also I would love to hear your arguments and critiques on my physics! My physics is still learning and isn’t always correct, space and time is infinite and so is knowledge.
Where did Max get his shirt? I want one! Great, wonderful conversation!
This will sound strange.bit try your r local Goodwill.
I find the most incredible shirts;; the fit, quality, that I can't find anywhere in any store. Probably because they are sold at stores which are beyond my price range. I have no idea how it happens., it happens whenever I happen to go shopping there.
Thank you for sharing these brilliant discussions with the entirety of humanity for free
Space is smooth. Time is flexible. Energy moves in all directions from every point. These are the basic constituents of our universe. It is no longer just space/time. It is Must now be Time/Energy/Space, or TES. Without time, energy and space are frozen. Without energy, space and time are frozen. Without Space, energy and time are also frozen. This state without these three constituents interacting can also be considered "locked" and therefore an incomplete picture of the interactivities of our universe.
Why is space smooth? Energy helps us answer this through the energy form of matter. Matter displaces time. This effect is what we call gravity. As matter accumulates, time is pushed further and further from the epicenter. Matter/energy moves through space/time, with only itself to cause friction; thus space is smooth. Eventually, matter becomes critically dense( This is where I am uncertain whether matter actually touches and creates an explosion, or space enforces it's law where no thing may actually touch and causes the explosion) creating a huge explosion, expelling all matter and and time from the epicenter. This is called a black hole. A perfectly smooth area of space in our universe reflecting all time and energy around it.
Why is time flexible? As energy condenses it forms clumps. These clumps "take up" space. Time must be flexible to make room for the newly condensed matter. as the matter accumulates time bends around the matter, creating effect like gravitational lensing. less dense forms of energy follow the curves of space/time.
Energy moving all direction from every point is purely observational. From where ever the origin may be, energy can be observed from every angle. This includes luminal and non-luminal energy, or "dark matter". Dark matter may be observed if sufficient energy, i.e. flashlight, is used. Luminal energy excites the photonic/electromagnetic field where as non-luminal does not.
Though space/time does answer many questions, the absence of energy in the equations or just "assumed", does not give a complete picture of celestial, terrestrial, nor quantum physics and must be included; fundamentally. If you've read this up to this point I commend you for being able grit your way through this what is most likely nonsense, but with all honesty, of how I understand our universe to function.
Thanks for this thought provoking conversation. Special thanks to Dr. Tegmark for completely blowing off his faculty meeting.
"Why does it seems the further we progress the more complicated the laws of nature seems to get?"
Here are my 5ct: i can think of two reasons.
1.
The further down we progress in physics, the farther away we strive from the world of our everyday experience. I believe that the laws governing the lower levels are of the same complexity as any earlier law (perhaps even getting simpler), but we also need the math to explain the connection from every layer to the one above, and we are accumulating more and more layers. The complexity is not in the lowest layer, but in the sheer amount of layers between it and us.
2.
The math we used to understand the early layers is not the same math we need to understand the lower layers. We are used to the math of the early layers. So perhaps the math of the lower layers is not harder, just more unfamiliar. And you will never see it as simple as your every day math, because every day math will stay the math taught in school as it is the math you need for surviving in the real world and making real tangible progress.
I was a little puzzled by both Brian and Max's position on whether math is invented or discovered - and the specific positions they took on it.
I am with Max on that one i.e. the mathematics is discovered. For example, the yet unnamed concept of 1 existed even before humans started thinking about 1 or for that matter even earth was formed. A nascent Hydrogen atom had 1 electron in its orbit. It always had and it will always have. The "1" part of "1 electron" is a concept and exists in a platonic sense of the word exist. The "electron" part of the "1 electron" exists in physical sense of the word exist. However I part company with Max when he says that all properties like electron have value -1, 0 or 1 and he says this is true all properties at the bottom and therefore universe itself is math at the bottom. The reason for parting company is that 1 without a unit is just the concept of 1. +1 spin i.e. the property of spin having +1 value is what makes it physical. A 1 by itself, without the additional information 1 of "what" is just a concept and not physical. I think Max is confusing between description of something with something.
On the other hand I did not understand what Brian said that when a person thought about 1 or any other mathematical equation, that is the time when that equation was invented. Yes the "thought" was "invented" by that human. But not the number 1 itself. 1 as a concept without any units ,exists platonically - of course with the platonic sense of the word exist.
I think string theory tries to but in my opinion has fails to demonstrate it's truth, to find what is everything made of i.e. strings. But I can understand that idea that physical universe is made out of physical strings. But then what are strings made of. We can always keep asking that question like a kid - but why? but why?
It may simply be an issue of whether or not words like invention and discovery take into two different sense of the word - platonically exist and physically exist.
I love this content, one of my favorite things to discuss by far!!!! Wish I had more people around me that I could discuss these types of mathematic philosophies with!
Same
Only 1 in 1000 people would be interested in these videos. That's why hard to find among your immediate circle. Come to UA-cam or find clubs if you live in big city
(Expletive)!!!! This discussion/debate is nourishing to the soul. To hear such high level discourse with matching humility is refreshing beyond measure!
It’s remarkable that something like this is available (free to the public) on the same platform that offers myriad TikTok challenges and other mind numbing content…
6:21 Language title:
The step, the path, the emotion, the word, the song, the harmony, the story of us all.
A discussion of physics between two or more very prominent Physicists like in this video is always extremely entertaining.
I greatly appreciate it; thank you very much, concerning/regarding/for the opportunity that is 👍.
Thank you soo much to brian and tracy for these!!!
Max is always smiling, and so are we listening to him speak...
So great to get to hear the thoughts of others
MAX! This is a pleasure, thank you all!
Watching again. Love this!
My two absolute favorite physicists, so awesome!
🔥❤️🔥
The t-shirt. I want copy of that t-shirt. Love how you stimulate my thinking and understanding.
Great topic and discussion!
I think the best model for both the universe a large scale is the inversion/eversion of the circle. The numerical field structures mimic both the universe and protons (from recent density structure measurements). The external field has no volume constraint and metric of inverse square. The interior region also follows inverse square numerically but also towards the inscribed circle. The circle is the membrane. Event horizon. What is outside exists inside in perfect mirror. Just as the antimatter universe is an inverted mirror of our own. The other side of the infinitesimal moment of NOW