I'm new to reloading and I was curious about reloading self defense ammo. You popped up on my UA-cam as my first video. I decided to look at your video and I'm glad I did. Thanks for the excellent information.
Underwood and Buffalo Bore use Starline brass. So do I (of course I also use R-P, Speer, Federal, and other brass). My revolver doesn't throw it very far. I use commercially available powder. It's not some proprietary blend that "factory" ammo uses. I use CCI primers. The projectiles I load are not exactly exotic stuff either. In fact, they are fairly old school. About the fanciest stuff I've used is XTP and Gold Dot. Finally, I use published load data. I'm not saying you're wrong about anything you said in this video. But if the origin of the ammunition comes up, there's some piling on going on. If it's a legitimate self defense shooting, it shouldn't matter if you're using Hertenberger Buscadero Ticondas or Remington Green and White box.
That last point of the 'cost of defending' the load blankets so many other decisions for me from trigger jobs to the punisher ball cap you were wearing to a choice made not to avoid a particular circumstance. It may sound boring as hell but squeaky clean isn't a bad way to roll while in 'yellow'.
That’s great advice. While I don’t reload I have loaded a different brand of commercial SD ammunition in the spare magazine I carry. You make a good case for consistency to facilitate a defense. The less a prosecutor has to work with the better since many are politically motivated.
My concern has always been hunting. If you are hunting, with reloads, and find yourself in a self defense situation. Does this preclude using reloads for hunting as well?
Please list three cases in the last five years in which the prosecutor used hand loads against a self defender and the handloader was found guilty...crickets! While I use manufactured ammo, there is not much case law demonizing hand loads. The prosecutor may prove your using a 45ACP vs 9MM was also reckless... In fact, he might say using a gun was reckless. Did your handloader user in the case you mentioned go to prison for using handloads? Probably not.
On June 8, 2021 I was on a Tucson freeway when I was targeted for being a Karen I later found out. They first tried forcing off the road then into moving traffic. They followed me into a Costco gas station, shouted slurs at me, took pictures of me and license plate, then laid in wait for me to leave. The attenent helped me avoid them and I was able to get away. I then called 911 where they transferred me to the local police who told me to call during the incident next time. They never asked what they looked like or even bothered to take a report. Don't kid yourselves. The Ra ceW ar is here and this side has disA rmed itself. I put my house up for sale 2 days later and am moving to Florida.
The only valid points I see that apply today are the last two legal arguments that are BS, I'm not saying he's wrong but if the judge says using hand-loads for testing is inadvisable because it can't be proven as being the same as the ones used when there will likely be at least one round left in the gun, a spare magazine or in evidence collected by the investigators because why would we take every round we loaded with us and if we document every reloading that is not right to not allow that. Recreation testing has to be done whether it's a hand-load being used or a factory load. A good argument for using hand-loads would be that you want to practice with the same ammo you would use for self defense and you will not get the exact external ballistics out of a hand-load that you would out of a factory load, this would show that you do not want to miss and hit innocent bystanders, a small shift in the point of impact could mean the difference between hitting you target or hitting whatever or whoever is behind it. with the cost of quality factory self defense loads using the same ammo for practice could cost thousands a year vs hundreds in hand-loads and the argument could be made that you wanted to practice more so you would not endanger innocent bystanders.
I am ok with making cartridges from new nickle coated brass,I doubt your scenario has ever come up in court,maybe if the projectile were altered it could factor in.
I load ammo in the caliber in my self defense handguns as close as possible to my chosen factory defensive ammo to duplicate recoil, accuracy and feeding characteristics. This is to ensure training and practice is the same as it would be if using factory ammo, but cheaper. I carry factory defensive ammo based on field results (police or other documented self defense shootings) because I want defensive ammo with a proven track record. There is no way to know if my reloaded ammo would be as good as field tested ammo so I spend the extra money for what I have confidence will work and hope I never have to find out.
Prosecutors are going to use everything against you to win. They could say you wanted to kill someone or were looking for a fight because you took multiple training classes, or you modified your gun to make it “more deadly” or you own to many guns, you mist be looking for a fight. A defense attorney is going to use those same things to defend you. He is going to try to convince a jury that you took training classes to be more responsible with a gun. He could argue that you used hand loaded ammunition to insure that you had a round that was more likely to stop the bad guy without hurting bystanders. You used low flash powders to prevent loosing situational awareness and potentially shoot the wrong person. Point is that its a 2 way street. Anything can be used against you, but it also can be used to defend you. Personally i use factory ammo in my guns because im getting the performance I want. But if i thought i could do better by making my own i totally would. Id rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.
Who is to say, that the ammo that you used by YOU, was reloaded by YOU? It could easily be ammo that was purchased by a LICENSED re-manufacturer at a gun show?
Your gun will be taken, including your unfired rounds. The investigators will notice that you have brass from different manufacturers. The same questions will be asked about the rounds and the same problems will occur if you need to do testing. Not sure what a licensed re-manufacturer is, do they utilize the same quality controls as commercial makers?
@@bobpatrino6690 A ""licensed Re-Manufacturer" has a 06 FFL, the Federal Firearms License, to reload ammunition commercially. They basically do the same thing any reloader does, on a legal, commercial basis. All quality control, is on an individual basis.
@@eugenewilliams4604 The other issue of some of the smaller companies is that they do not always have exemplar ammunition held like some of the larger companies. The lot numbers are important for a number of the tests Marty talked about. They would be impossible to replicate in testing.
@@MrEmartskier The point being, a prosecutor has no idea who loaded the ammo, when or to what standard. Some of the original Super Vel ammo, was quite different.
I think I would be more concerned with political bias more so then my hand loads. If your in court and your pro 2nd your already in trouble. Rather than say "Don't use hand loads." I'd much rather see someone saying "There is nothing wrong with it. and many people do it that aren't murders."
please give us specific examples of cases where hand loaded ammo played a significant role in the cost or outcome...
Please list the cases where defender was found guilty due to handloads.
I'm new to reloading and I was curious about reloading self defense ammo. You popped up on my UA-cam as my first video. I decided to look at your video and I'm glad I did. Thanks for the excellent information.
Underwood and Buffalo Bore use Starline brass. So do I (of course I also use R-P, Speer, Federal, and other brass). My revolver doesn't throw it very far. I use commercially available powder. It's not some proprietary blend that "factory" ammo uses. I use CCI primers. The projectiles I load are not exactly exotic stuff either. In fact, they are fairly old school. About the fanciest stuff I've used is XTP and Gold Dot. Finally, I use published load data.
I'm not saying you're wrong about anything you said in this video. But if the origin of the ammunition comes up, there's some piling on going on. If it's a legitimate self defense shooting, it shouldn't matter if you're using Hertenberger Buscadero Ticondas or Remington Green and White box.
Does this still apply due to the shortage of ammunition that’s going on in 2021
Marty. Just as a curiosity discussion, is there any examples, case law, of hand loads being attacked by prosecution?
Hope to see ya this summer.
That last point of the 'cost of defending' the load blankets so many other decisions for me from trigger jobs to the punisher ball cap you were wearing to a choice made not to avoid a particular circumstance. It may sound boring as hell but squeaky clean isn't a bad way to roll while in 'yellow'.
Great presentation Marty! Thank you for providing these.
Another great informative video. Keep them coming!
Thank you for the excellent information. These presentations are crucial for anyone interested in the aftermath of a bad encounter.
All valid points I never considered. Thank you for the information.
sir you opened up some thing new to me thanks i would never think this could happen makes alot of sense thank you again
Great information! Can wait to see the follow up.
Thanks Marty
Excellent advice👍🏻
Marti you are so correct on this!!
how are stippling patterns varied by age or storage of ammunition
That’s great advice. While I don’t reload I have loaded a different brand of commercial SD ammunition in the spare magazine I carry. You make a good case for consistency to facilitate a defense. The less a prosecutor has to work with the better since many are politically motivated.
My concern has always been hunting. If you are hunting, with reloads, and find yourself in a self defense situation. Does this preclude using reloads for hunting as well?
Please list three cases in the last five years in which the prosecutor used hand loads against a self defender and the handloader was found guilty...crickets! While I use manufactured ammo, there is not much case law demonizing hand loads. The prosecutor may prove your using a 45ACP vs 9MM was also reckless... In fact, he might say using a gun was reckless. Did your handloader user in the case you mentioned go to prison for using handloads? Probably not.
On June 8, 2021 I was on a Tucson freeway when I was targeted for being a Karen I later found out. They first tried forcing off the road then into moving traffic. They followed me into a Costco gas station, shouted slurs at me, took pictures of me and license plate, then laid in wait for me to leave. The attenent helped me avoid them and I was able to get away. I then called 911 where they transferred me to the local police who told me to call during the incident next time. They never asked what they looked like or even bothered to take a report. Don't kid yourselves. The Ra ceW ar is here and this side has disA rmed itself. I put my house up for sale 2 days later and am moving to Florida.
The only valid points I see that apply today are the last two legal arguments that are BS, I'm not saying he's wrong but if the judge says using hand-loads for testing is inadvisable because it can't be proven as being the same as the ones used when there will likely be at least one round left in the gun, a spare magazine or in evidence collected by the investigators because why would we take every round we loaded with us and if we document every reloading that is not right to not allow that. Recreation testing has to be done whether it's a hand-load being used or a factory load. A good argument for using hand-loads would be that you want to practice with the same ammo you would use for self defense and you will not get the exact external ballistics out of a hand-load that you would out of a factory load, this would show that you do not want to miss and hit innocent bystanders, a small shift in the point of impact could mean the difference between hitting you target or hitting whatever or whoever is behind it. with the cost of quality factory self defense loads using the same ammo for practice could cost thousands a year vs hundreds in hand-loads and the argument could be made that you wanted to practice more so you would not endanger innocent bystanders.
I am ok with making cartridges from new nickle coated brass,I doubt your scenario has ever come up in court,maybe if the projectile were altered it could factor in.
I load ammo in the caliber in my self defense handguns as close as possible to my chosen factory defensive ammo to duplicate recoil, accuracy and feeding characteristics. This is to ensure training and practice is the same as it would be if using factory ammo, but cheaper. I carry factory defensive ammo based on field results (police or other documented self defense shootings) because I want defensive ammo with a proven track record. There is no way to know if my reloaded ammo would be as good as field tested ammo so I spend the extra money for what I have confidence will work and hope I never have to find out.
This is some GREAT information. Thank you for sharing the facts!
Prosecutors are going to use everything against you to win. They could say you wanted to kill someone or were looking for a fight because you took multiple training classes, or you modified your gun to make it “more deadly” or you own to many guns, you mist be looking for a fight.
A defense attorney is going to use those same things to defend you. He is going to try to convince a jury that you took training classes to be more responsible with a gun. He could argue that you used hand loaded ammunition to insure that you had a round that was more likely to stop the bad guy without hurting bystanders. You used low flash powders to prevent loosing situational awareness and potentially shoot the wrong person.
Point is that its a 2 way street. Anything can be used against you, but it also can be used to defend you. Personally i use factory ammo in my guns because im getting the performance I want. But if i thought i could do better by making my own i totally would. Id rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.
“They” can say that because you wore a red shirt that day, you had murder in your heart.
Who is to say, that the ammo that you used by YOU, was reloaded by YOU? It could easily be ammo that was purchased by a LICENSED re-manufacturer at a gun show?
Your gun will be taken, including your unfired rounds. The investigators will notice that you have brass from different manufacturers. The same questions will be asked about the rounds and the same problems will occur if you need to do testing. Not sure what a licensed re-manufacturer is, do they utilize the same quality controls as commercial makers?
@@bobpatrino6690 A ""licensed Re-Manufacturer" has a 06 FFL, the Federal Firearms License, to reload ammunition commercially. They basically do the same thing any reloader does, on a legal, commercial basis.
All quality control, is on an individual basis.
@@eugenewilliams4604 The other issue of some of the smaller companies is that they do not always have exemplar ammunition held like some of the larger companies.
The lot numbers are important for a number of the tests Marty talked about. They would be impossible to replicate in testing.
@@MrEmartskier The point being, a prosecutor has no idea who loaded the ammo, when or to what standard. Some of the original Super Vel ammo, was quite different.
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! I'VE BEEN RELOADING FOR OVER 40 YEARS. I'D NEVER USE RELOADS FOR SELF DEFENSE IF I COULD PREVENT IT.
throw that fast orange away and try some grip clean, you will thank me later
I think I would be more concerned with political bias more so then my hand loads. If your in court and your pro 2nd your already in trouble. Rather than say "Don't use hand loads." I'd much rather see someone saying "There is nothing wrong with it. and many people do it that aren't murders."
or you're just frugal and like to save money
This is dumb. No case anywhere that this is a reality.
ua-cam.com/video/fpHAgBL4tf8/v-deo.html - discussion regarding New Jesrsey vs Daniel Bias