If GW/FW no longer decides to produce something, they shouldn’t complain when some decides to buy a recast of such models. Since they’re not making such items, then they’re NOT losing money. A case in point; Horus heresy torsos for space marines.
Pretty much. I've bought a recast of the japanese exclusive malignat plaguecaster which GW hasn't produced in a few years. I was really hoping when they released SM heroes outside of japan they would release that too but they didn't GW didn't want my money so I went with a recaster.
That's a bit of a bullshit argument. Anime figures are often limited runs, and people will pay more money because they know that the figure may never be available again if they don't buy it. The same applies to gaming models; any model that you know will be available _forever_ drops in perceived value. Limited availability always raises the value of an item. The reason some OOP models fetch high prices is _scarcity._ If you don't have enough Horus Heresy SM torsos, you should have bought more when they were in production.
@@herculeholmes504 for the people who care about legitimate products they can still buy them. There is a reason damn near every time legitimate products typically sell for way more than fakes no matter how good the fakes are. Just look at video games. Everyone can buy a $50 raspberry pi or just use tech they have laying around and play nearly every old video game for free. That doesn’t stop used boxed copies of Super Mario RPG for going for $200. Heck companies do reproduce retro games with all the same stuff and more, yet originals are are still worth more. In the end if you own a legitimate rare figure it doesn’t hurt you that someone buys a recast, it doesn’t even hurt gw as they no longer sell it. If it worked that way all retro consoles/games would be worthless at this point.
@@amn1088 To an extent yes. But there is a limit top how much people are willing to pay for a genuine item before they are seduced by bootleg product. Sometimes it doesn't matter because it's a product I was not going to buy at the original asking price, and would not buy as an expensive OOP product either; I have two recast kit anime figures that I'll be painting up some time; I'd like to have bought the originals but I only found out about them after they went OOP and the prices went sky-high; the resin kits are unpainted and need a lot of work to prepare so most people would not see them as an equal alternative to the genuine complete painted PVC plastic models. In the case of Games Workshop products though, the bootlegs are made and sold en-masse, and in direct competition. It may not affect GW's bottom line so much when it's recasts of OOP models, but FOMO is still important to profits; you are less likely to buy some of the existing current models because you know that a few years from now they'll still be available as recasts. If you thought they would not be available as recasts in the future, you'd be more likely to buy them now while they are still available. Of course, that would leave you with less money to spend on future models. In the case of retro video games, TBH although I often go through phases of playing old 8-bit and 16-bit games I don't think I'd ever buy a real console or computer or games because it's so much easier to play on an emulator, and I can get almost everything for free. It's a somewhat different world though; some people have got the space to have a whole room dedicated to retro gaming and they buy CRT televisions and monitors to capture the original look of the games which cannot be properly reproduced on LCD/LED screens.
@Hercule Holmes That argument only applies to limited edition releases anyway. Many models have always been run as unlimited availability to begin with; you could buy as many as you wanted. But over time the demand for them has dropped and they've been put out of production for that reason, or because they've been replaced. Nothing to do with GW making them scarce on purpose because they were never limited runs to begin with. From a legal perspective, sure selling recast is still illegal. But in practicality buying a recast of a really old oop model is completely fine.
My personal stance has always been I buy where possible but if the company literally won't sell it to me then I'll get a recast. In practical terms this means that I have about 3000pts of 30k Alpha Legion, that's including FW upgrade packs, weapons, etc. Yet I also have one recast Autillion Skorr, that FW literally won't sell me. Do I feel bad for recasting a model they literally won't sell me? Like fuck I do.
Basically how I feel about Mark 2 battle plate. Either I'm buying it from TortugaBay or a recaster, either way GW doesn't get money from me for Mark 2's they could be selling me right now. Virtually everything else in my 30k army is ebay or FW.
There's entire ranges of models that are not made anymore that I can *only* access via recasting/3d printing. As a customer being told "too bad. you weren't around to buy it when it was made" isn't an argument. If it was nobody would ever reprint older products of any kind, be it media or physical goods.
My stance is buy legit when it makes sense, buy recasts when it makes sense. Any models that can only be found second hand for crazy prices easy go with recasts. 99% of the rest of the time its not worth my time working with resin to buy recasts over standard product offerings. Probably the only things I have bought recasts of in those lines are the transcendant c'tan(Sorry gw I am not paying $140 just to get a little character model and a bunch of plastic I don't want or need), and resin parts to be able to use the rest of the bits in the immortals box. Sorry GW I think its dumb that literally only 3 pieces are shared between immortals and deathmarks aka the legs, chest and spine. The arm holding that connects the gun isn't even shared between the immortals and deathmarks. So you are buying two half sprues and only really using one half sprue which drives me crazy, I am cool with extra bits but this is just crazy.
I'd like to know how many that shout down recasts have ever downloaded music or a film or tv show as a torrent. (or for older gamers) ever taped a friends album, or music off the radio.. Or even bought pirate DVD's or video cassettes back in the day. Even today, for your car, you can get cheap items that look the same as the high end stuff. I do fully understand and support artists and sculptors getting paid and not ripped off.
Whatever about current gw artists but all of their sculptors are employees making a wage not like they're getting a commission on each sculpt of theirs sold so they've already been paid.
I can completely understand making your own recasts. Something that is incredibly easy to do with a bit of practice. For example I've seen homemade recast of the resin Eldar that look as good as the existing sculpt. As well as indistinguishable from original MK4 Marines. GW is fucked at this rate
I found a recaster last month that does stuff for a 3rd of the price that fw does, I haven’t looked back since because £41 for a 5 man assault squad with no upgrades is stupid
Britbong here: Since GW has no interests in selling me the models I want to get, I will go elsewhere to people who are more than happy to sell the item I am interested in. It's entirely their fault, if they didn't act like such pricks to customers With low quality casts then maybe they wouldn't have lost a customer. Side note: raising prices to absurd levels is no good for anyone and at the very least needs to be investigated by trading standards.
It's cope on the end of people who want to justify buying models more expensive than necessary. Also chancs are they're only gamers rather than hobbyists.
@@Tatti12321 I mean, this is a case where someone chose to recast and got shamed for getting a 30 year old model yeah, because there are alot of old minis no longer available 1st hand and the company will rip you off with offering to sell you nostalgia. And arguments I've seen towards not recasting all tend towards the tabletop, most common being 'how am I supposed to tell which unit is what?' or 'you'll just buy a recast and complain about conceding 10 points'. Both come from people who just play tabletop and don't consider the barriers to entry for other people or that they paint minis but may not specifically play Warhammer and may choose to use what they already have. Also the latter is straight up toxicity bred by GW to encourage people to commit to an "official" style of game, you can see with the 40K BatRep channels where they don't do narrative games anymore and the focus has been pulled away from games outside of 500-2000 for 40K. Before you say 'just play elsewhere', consider that alot of the time people will only have one or maybe 2 places at most to play and if this idea is promoted then you've essentially been barred for not buying into the Citadel hype.
@@oliverp3545 It benefits the borderline monopolistic company that its customers are conditioned to react to perceived brand disloyalty with hostility. I have very little respect for big companies, as a rule. Much less ones that use their outsized market dominance to program vast swaths of the wargaming hobby into being the company's eternal zealot defenders. GW does not deserve this loyalty. No brand does.
I belive that many ppl have never built another plastick kit from another manufacturer before and think gw isnt THAT expensive. But in reality you can get a gunpla for 90€ that has more plastic than the indomitus box and has actually no need for glue unlike indomitus and has much more desing work in it....
Or another thing is a modern tamya kit for 40€ thats the size of a knigth and literally just falls together and has better detail than even the best kits from FW or GW. Or a miniart kit that has a full interior and a box the size of indomitus full of plastic for just about 80€ and you end up paying almost nothing per sprue. I think my t-44 had something like over 20 sprues and thats if you dont count the duplicates for the individual tracks or the tiny sprues for the details that go on the fenders
@@Luna832 warlord games infantry boxed.30 X 28mm ww2 minis with huge amount of parts or Rubicon tanks 1 kit all varients of a tank and even some have full Interiors all cheaper than GW equivalent
Gunplas are one of the best example out there of what REAL quality and right price is, ESPECIALLY when you put them next to the GARBAGE monopose robot GW sell, like the contemptor dread.
This hobby is for me alone in my little world. So i will get and buy whatever i want whenever i want. Genuine model or a recast makes no difference to me.
GW could make a fortune providing these models on a by order basis, they could even charge absolutely extortionate amounts of cash and STILL get away with it with zero repercussions other than stacks of cash
Normally we'd have to be responsible and support the company that gives us the things we like. Here we have an example of something they can't provide and the company is a parasite on us for abusing a franchise that they've swooped in on, as it's marketing and legal that now runs everything, to the detriment of everyone. The law is not just the law, especially if it's unenforceable and even more so when the company can't prove damages, which they can't regarding recasts of out of print models. The people supporting GW on this topic are bandwagon simps with no morals or principles or their own.
The funny thing with that "we have to be responsible and support the company that gives us the things we like" is that people who use it always ignore the flip side of that coin which is "we dont have any obligation to support a company that gives us things we don't like" like absurdly overinflated prices.
@@Pers0n97 Agreed, customers also need to keep the company on their toes. I've written many complaints to GW, something that most, no doubt, can't be bothered to.
I work in a small, working family owned military surplus shop, where we sell historical and modern military clothes. A considerable percentage of the product that is delivered to us is in some way or form damaged, obviusly, as some is almost 80 years old. But we still try to offer good deals to our customers, we fix whatever can be fixed and offer discounts when things cant fixed. And still some customers feel outraged when a soviet shirt from the afghan war is slightly damaged or if a 80's dutch coat has a missing button. In contrast, I don't understand how the warhammer community doesn't demand higher quality from GW or FW, every single kit I've got in 2020 and 2021 has had horrible mold lines or suffered from extreme air bubbles... now that i think, my shop also sells replicas, wich have consistent quality, and are, in general, cheaper. Got me thinking... 🤔
I'm in that group. the model was discontinued 31 years ago, the only way you can find them is to go on eBay, and pay upwards of £100GBP for one that's coated in 18 layers of paint and missing pieces, whereas the recasts are generally better quality than the miniature was in the first place. It's still up and going for $26US, I'd have been happy to buy one, if not for the postage to the UK
If you are a brand fetishist, you have to buy the e-bay item. If you are a collector, you don't even think about it, and buy the recast. If you are a gamer, you just look for great quality that won't get noticed! ^_^
I like the old 80s and early 90s WHFB and side lines stuff GW did. I have three choices. Buy/sculpt models that resemble it. Wait for ages on eBay and potentially get overcharged while somethings will always be expensive due to rarity/demand or buy recasts which are cheaper than modern GW.
I do, and will continue to buy recasts as long as they are as good as FW quality (which is EXTREMELY common) and is priced appropriately. If a god damn russian in a shed can give item of the same or even higher quality than FW, for a fraction of the price why shouldn't I take that offer? ESPECIALLY when GW and FW keep increasing their price higher and higher? I have NO respect for GW as a business because they dont respect me as a customer and anyone trying to pull the "but it's theft" and "we need to support them so they keep doing stuff" I'd just respond that GW stop qualifying for that kind of argument when they increased their margin way, WAY over what would have been fair and reasonable for the consumers. As GabeN famously said "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. ... It's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates."The only oen to blame here is GW.
I like to buy boxes from my official local retailer (I live in Russia), but they dont sell eveything you need for an army (good luck if you want to collect eldar or tyranids, lmao) and also recasts are just more customer friendly for me than ordering directly from manufacturer. It's so difficult to order and ship something from GW or FW official site. I once had one such instance - they lost my DE Ravager and it was a paint to get a refund. I'll just continue to buy recasted stuff that I can't get in convenient way or which don't sells in Russia. Edit: some spelling
I have a simple rule. When comparing similar products, the better quality and/or cheaper price get my money. Recast is both compare to what forgeworld gives.
The only way to get Mk.II marines is recasting. Recently I've started Iron Warriors army so I wanted them to be Mk.II-III heavy. But I can't get official mk2 models anymore.
I remember buying recasts of Ork Kommandos several years ago of a quality that was equal to that of GW. Why? Well, GW had decided that the kit was no longer available from them, so if I wanted it I had to look elsewhere. It just so happened that where I looked was selling as many as I wanted to buy for cheaper than that would have been from GW, if they had been selling them. Which they were not.
Would I and have I bought recasts for GW products? Yes. All day long, no regrets. Fuck 'em. Would I buy recasts from any other miniature company? No. Because a lot of gaming and miniature companies really do need my money to survive. For some companies that are miniature and scale agnostic I still go out of my way to buy their models to help ensure the health and longevity of a game system that I love.
I don't think i know of another company then GW that has so predatory marketing tactics when it comes to their models. How many companies have you seen disable youtube comments on their videos for instance, just because they know they would have to face up to a lot of vitriol built over the years? I honestly can't name one (maybe i follow to few). They have encouraged in a lot of ways a very dog eat dog internet community on top of that. It's a real shame really, because the worlds they built up are quite something. The more they would cultivate a positive community, the fewer problems like these they would have. It's exactly the same thing that happens in the PC gaming community, games without DRMs who have good developers and cultivate a positive community experience, haven't got as many problems with piracy as others that put on full drm jackets to the point of stifling the gaming experience for their paying customers. So im not defending theft per se and the lines are not as clear cut imo, also the laws need to be updated for a digital age, but it is very much a problem of GWs own making.
to add on, slightly off tangent, it's why this dislike getting disabled thing sucks: it is the bad corporations and scammers who benefit from no dislike button, not small YTbers with mental health struggles
The original post was reasonable; the guy wanted the eBay listing to tell the truth that it was a recast and not Forge World. Which is fair enough. But after that it devolved into a thread of people telling other people how to spend their money.
I never understood the people whining about cheap ebay FW of out of production minies being recast. Either they legit thought it was a real one and thought they could literally scam someone by underpaying for it, in that case they have no right to whine about being scammed, or they legit thought it was real and wouldn't have bought it anyway, in that case they are frankly stupid and dont deserve any sympathy. YOU KNOW what you get on ebay when you buy a cheaper than FW site FW model, from a seller that sells a dozen of them, and is usually based in eastern europe.
The seller is responsible for being honest about the details of the product. If everything is being done correctly, the listing should not show Forge world or GW as the manufacturer, it should be left blank except for when it is genuine. That's how I check to see if something may be recasted. Otherwise, I assume everything listed from Russia is probably a recast. But when people falsely represent their recast as made by FW or GW, and you underpay, you didn't try to scam the buyer, people get low results on auctions all the time. The seller determined the conditions of the sale. The whole point if eBay is price discovery via auction. As long as all parties share their info openly, there is no fraud.
I actually was confronted with this two days ago when I realized I wanted more Horus Heresy legion torso's for my future project(s) and I remembered that these things are out of production for ages. You literally can't get these anymore just like you can't get the old FW Dreadnoughts or the old FW Terminator shoulder pads etc. So if you can't get them from FW anymore what are you supposed to do if you ignore recasters? Just accept that you can't have these items that could highly customize your legion force? This is the point that I don't get with FW/GW and people that criticize recasting of OLD models. It's not like piracy for old movies or video games, you can still download those most of the time in the official stores. These are literally unavailable products that you can't get your hands on through any means besides recasting. Also the things that get out of production are ludicrous sometimes. As I stated with the legion torso upgrade packs. These items give your legion a huge boost in personality and general accuracy to how a specific legion force would have looked in the universe of 30k. It's not just some old model that's not nessecary anymore. These are basic infantry upgrade items for each legion that you will need if you want to field an accurate force. It just boggles my mind that GW/FW haven't put these items back into production and even moreso that people manage to criticize this practice sitting on top of their ivory tower. Thank god there are still some easily findable recasters out there because I live with the fear everyday that I wake up and they are pulled from the web due to GW's lawyers. How will I then complete my collection? I don't have the money right now to shell down 300,- + EUR on plastic. What are the options?
If you are a brand fetishist, yes you have too. If you are a collector, you don't even think about it, and buy the recast. If you are a gamer, you just look for great quality that won't get noticed! ^_^
@@MrSandor1968 My worry is that GW removes all recasting websites and therefor takes away our ability to get our hands on out of production sculpts and bits. To me it's all plastic. I don't mind buying from elementgames for in production stuff but for things I can't get my hands on that's just insane that you have to bounce from recasting website to recasting website as GW hunts them down.
Well put sir! On the point of value; there is no loss in value. The buyer paid what they were willing to pay for it. That was the value of it to them. If it were too much they wouldn't have got it. No value lost. If they bought it as qn investment because it is an original rare item it still is and will continue to be. Others having cheaper reproduction versions of item doesn't effect that
Recasters are the least of GW's problems. That new DUNE movie completely ripped off GW's IP. Ditto Alien, Judge Dread, Star Wars, Blade Runner, Everything Tolkien wrote, etc ....
I wish recasters would do resin versions of the RT sculpts. It woulden't mess with the collectors market and would give people access to scarce parts, or super limited run minitures like the cyber-minotuar.
I want some recasts of those metal imperial guard minis they made in the 90s. Those old cadians are amazing, the RT troops are great too but I doubt any recasters are able to recast those though.
@@BingGuss Dude, the classic troopers were so great. It's a shame that we'll never get a box set with that much character again. (that and 36 miniatures in one box is pretty great)
I was very excited over the chaplain reruns. Wanted all 4, and with how the image on warcom was presented, thought it was a 4 pack. Was hoping it would be perhaps $80USD for the set, or $20ish if split, remembering how much they were back in the day and comparing their price to similar still available finecast models. On average, older finecast minis seem to be $20-25 on their site for a standard marine sized mini. When I saw it was $30 each for these sculpts that are going on what, 15 years old? I immediately began looking through my list of known recasters, as I'm not being scalped by the company that's producing them. And that's what this is, scalping. Only difference is, they control all supply.
The funniest (or saddest) part here is that thos minies are literally cheaper than the "current" chaplains. The primaris chapelian is 45$ while the "new-old" first born chapelain is now 40$. This means that thos limited reruns are actually the cheapest chapelains out there (well, the jump pack one is still 30$ for some strange reason, I guess they just forgot to "adjust" its price yet.
@@Pers0n97 oh yeah, still "cheapest," but for minis that have equivalent models still in the range (finecast firstborn), being made arbitrarily more expensive... it's just ridiculous. Not to mention the cost of the new plastic ones is bloated anyhow. I get that any HQ won't sell volume like squads, but still. Especially when the finecast Masters of the Chapter box has 4 very nice HQ's for $3 more than a SINGLE finecast chaplain. It's just ridiculous how they make numbers seemingly appear from thin air.
For me the conundrum isn't an issue of price so much as it is quality with currently in print items. Yes you could go through FW and avoid jumping through hoops, but is the product going to be any good? Why pay a premium for an inferior product?
Hm? These recasts? Oh yeah I definitely made them at home with my own RTV silicone and resin which, thanks to UK laws I'm completely entitled to do so.
I want at least 9 of the old FW casterferrum dreadnoughts. FW doesn't make them, I don't want to pay 2x the price for 2nd hand I can get them from a recaster for basically the same as FW used to charge
Gw hasn't released a new Tyranid model in 7 years and counting. Meanwhile i can download an STL file and print for a fraction of the mini cost, that is of higher quality then their current sculpts, that's emulating a sculpt from the 1990s. It's crazy.
I bought a bunch of Eldar troops on Ebay - are they recast? maybe? maybe not? all I know is, I paid a price closer to the value of a25 year old kit than what GW wants
I’ll also add that GW does have shops. Which is a plus for them. On a downside, they literally charge 20-40% more to people in Aus and NZ just because they can. Don’t forget Forgeworld products come out of exactly the same warehouse to go to Australian customers as they do for UK customers and they charge 40% more PLUS shipping. I honestly can’t see how people can so blindly defend GW and belittle those that buy recast miniatures Good Job Macca! Extra Gravy for you
Yup that was the worst thing FW did was switch to regional pricing like main line GW. In Canada it was cheaper to buy a FW army then it was to buy a plastic GW army. Hence why Heresy became popular way before FW released the black books. Most of those armour marks where already available because of the badab war line. It killed FW overnight (the regional pricing) and now we have the mess we are in now.
I mean, if you view toy soldiers as an investment.... as any competent financial adviser will tell you, the value of your investment can go down as well as up.
If they don't provide the product- I have every right to look elsewhere. In addition, GW's prices are way in excess of what the items are worth- and no- 40k IS NOT a luxury product- GW just prices it as such and people buy into circular logic where because something is priced high it must be a luxury product. I will continue to 3d print bits they don't sell and buy from my lgs at a discount.
Most of Russian or Ukrainian recasts are miles ahead of crappy FW. They feel almost like plastic, and have no bubbles. FW looks like a cheap recast in comparison. GW’s plastic is the best tho.
Bought a knight lancer from russian recasters. Only problems were brittle chains on the banners, a missing hatch on the carapace, missing toe and a huge resin chunk on the head. I received two extremely fine detail oop admech cerastus knight heads. I cleaned the standard head but the gesture was nice.
The Predator/Rhino extra armour kit I purchased from a Chinese caster was far better quality than the FW one. The chinese casts fit nice and snug. And glued on first time, no fuss, no muss. The forge world bits required me to do a lot of filing and heating to fit the part.
Can confirm. I've tried a couple of them and every times I got an excellent product. Funnily enough, recasts are often of even better quality than 3D printed stuff nowadays.
Oi Jams me boy, we need a video on what makes a good zone mortalis board, I want to get into it, but I have no clue how to build my boards without leaving it in a million pieces!
Look at the Cadian Guardsmen box, at the start of 8th edition it was $25 USD. Then about half way through they increased it to $35 USD for seemingly no reason as the kits stayed the same. And then with the beginning of 9th they added a single sprue with heads and finally special weapons while increasing the price to $45 USD. It's ridiculous as they nearly doubled the price in less than 4 years and this is a box every guard player needs in massive quantities.
Lmao even THESE comments are full people who think it is their job to support a stupidly powerful company. No plans on buying anything but recast. The quality and vision that would accord this sort of loyalty died long ago. Continuing to buy anything from GW is like ordering extra to feed a tape worm.
I buy a second hand land raider for the World eaters post heresy "chaossy" on it clean ed them and recast them with silicon and gravity also some "out of stock " without stamping ;-) etchen brass on Ebay
What does Games Workshop offer anymore if 1. The rules are bad and expensive. 2. The lore is progressively getting worse. 3. The miniatures are prohibitively expensive, and, in Forge World's case, casting quality control is non existent.
The models are getting worse too. The OOP forgeworld Hydra is better than the current plastic Hydra, the OOP Leman Russ Vanquishers from Forgeworld compared to the plastic one. And the old Baneblades compared to the current plastic ones.
Its crazy that 1 i can download a free rules set that can be boiled down to one double sided page. 2 i can ignore the lore or make my own up 3 find stl files for models that can be printed at a fraction of the price, as well as models that aren't even made anymore.
@@Cynidecia It’s even crazier that with all of those resources available, there are people who are still more than happy to deal with Games Workshop. The folks working on and around Inquisitor 28 and 28mag may be insufferably pretentious from time to time, but they’re the only ones I really see doing their own thing with 40k. I’d also like Macca to make more content around the other games he’s shown: Hate, X-Wing, A Song of Ice and Fire, Ankh, Etc.
I recently bought a 3d printer and found 1 page rules. I haven't looked back. The can keep their plastic, I wont support them anymore which makes me sad as I love 40k but I won't support them until drastic price changes and company attitude changes. They can keep their "premium" hobby status and choke on it.
I'm a parasite and I'm OK I build all night and paint all day He’s a parasite and he’s OK He builds all night and paints all day I buy recasts, I 3D print, I download PDF‘s, Sometimes I order Transfers With my mate‘s staff discount He buys recasts, he 3D prints, He downloads PDF’s, Sometimes he orders Transfers With his mate’s staff discount He’s a parasite and he’s OK, He paints his stuff in time to play I’m not a Simp, I won’t forget, How they’ve treated me. But I still love the hobby Just not the company He’s not a Simp, He won’t forget, How they’ve treated him. He still loves the hobby Just not the company!
Funnelling money into GW doesn't mean they will produce what you or any customer wants necessarily, especially if you have had to compromise on what you wanted when you made the purchase i.e having to buy into primaris scale, being forced to buy a certain package like a combat patrol or army set for limited run models etc. All it does is affirm GW's current practices, meaning you won't get any more from them than what you get now. Heresy being one of their most inconsistent ranges is a particularly bad business model to give positive feedback on through purchases.
That whole "we need to support that smoll indy company" mentality is one of the most stupid shit the fanboys always try to pull. GW is a BILLIONS COMPANY, not struggling starving artist, and they made all their money via underhanded tactics and milking nostalgia.
Not paying those ridiculous prices for resin/plastic. I recast almost everything GW/Forgeworld. Piracy is a function of shitty company/customer service and horrendous pricing. Fix those and the piracy issue dies.
The Chaplains rereleases is hilarious: I wasn't really in 40k at the time of these getting released originally. So was tempted, but I genuinely thought "wait, these are just old moulds off the shelf, so no new design, but you are charging like these are new first born marines models for no reason other than people will pay for nostalgia and brand loyalty"
@@DarkAlex1978 though it does wipe out a lot of the collector's investment when the OOP becomes IP again. But as I said, I like the old designs. I'm just baffled that they essentially upmarket the model when it's identical to before - not like they threw away the mould and had to remake it identically
@@darko-man8549 It really gets even funnies when you look at the bigger pictures. The old Jumpack Chapelain is still at 30$ (guess they just missed it for the anual price increase). The reruns are at 35$. The new (old) first born chapelain is at 40$ (so literally higher than the limited runs). And the primaris chapelain is at 45$. (btw, they made sure to make the primaris chapelain way, WAY better for only 5pts, so getting a first born chap is basically pointless from a game point of view).
Im a broke as fuck uni student that loves putting together miniatures but because of how much gws models cost I would have to sell both of my lungs, a kidney and both of my legs at a minimum to even think about building the three armies I want one of them for display one for both display and painting and one as a "retro" marine army basically. So I recast for myself old model kits, and some of the kits that I really love and only for myself. I basically have to become a drug seller, a phone repairman/seller, or some kinda job that exceeds 80k a year at a minimum to be able to afford everything for living etc, and to be able to basically think about buying a kit maybe once a month at most.
Kinda. Its a case of GW actively removing sensible people from the community by pricing them out, thus leaving behind only the most braindead consoomers.
Basically kids, if GW brought its prices down by 35% people would be more than happy to buy them.. I chose 35% because in reality GW would still be selling its goods on a decent mark up. Trust me when I know this is a fact.
It's not a secret, the fact that a Land Raider sprue is less than a dollar out of the factory is a pretty well known fact. Their Christmas battle forces are no skin off their noses.
Piracy happens. It becomes a "problem" when a company overprices an item and complicated by bad customer service, which can be a large number of different issues. GW happens to tick a lot of boxes that set them up for failure.
I only buy from two recasters, they've both done well, but there's somthings I'll buy from gw. The pricing is what is slowly driving me to recasters more and more...and when I can buy old models that Forge World pulled *last chance to buy on* I see no problem with recasters. I'd rather buy from a recaster with a lower price and risks, than to pay full price from forge world, get a bad cast and wait wait see if they will refund or send a new part
so the space marine chaplains varied in price from 22 aud to 27 aud back in 2013 a couple of years after i got into the hobby conveniently I had the sense back in 2013 to save copies of the range lists for marines, guard, chaos marines and blood angels from the gw webstore so yeah paying double for some of those models and almost double for others is just plain insulting
…just as I was considering building a recasted army of stubborn little heavy-armour-themed Crimson Fists, as a purely fun pursuit of a flavour of marines I love, and hesitating on the decision. I’ve been a newcomer to the hobby for one year and already GW have proved my eighteen-year-old ass out of any hope of sensibly collecting otherwise. Thanks for the nudge in the right direction, Macca- for your Horus Heresy videos too, as they’ve really inspired my idea of how much genuine love and hard work an army can be given :) you’ve kept me in the hobby in spite of GW, and I’ll do my best to stay true to the spirit veterans like you have shown me over the past few months
I was in your shoes a few years ago before I started making money in my career (mid twenties, completed college). I Wish i could go back to when I started the hobby again when I was 14. You have less army, so each guy is more valuable / special. Cherish these time, for your forces will grow, new armies will go, then they go on the shelf not to get touched. Enjoy your small forces, it will grow or you move on with different interested in life. Enjoy these times and the stories.
You're point about how people justify GW's behavior by saying that they are business which exists to make money, but that that logic also applies to people who buy recasts is very good and something I hadn't considered before.
The people that love to use "it's a business that exists to make money" always miss the obvious point that "yes, and capitalism dictact that we, as consumers, will do our best to get the best deal for our money". I dont understand why they think that somehow nothing can be done about companies being greedy and you just have to accept it.
. (I feel bad for other countries around the world which pay like twice as much) I think forge world takes the piss with there prices. Why I’m looking forward to the new heresy plastic that are definitely coming. That being said yes this hobby is expensive but when I look at it I don’t think it’s. Once I buy an army I never actually have to buy for it again. I know lots of people who play with units and army’s that are 20 years old. if you say send a £500 on an army and never buy for it again apart from the odd new rules but still play the game you aren’t really spending any money on the hobby and then the company isn’t making money from you. And let’s be honest, if you get out the hobby and sell your armies etc you make your money back and if it’s nicely painted you will probs make a profit on it. I buy recasts for models that aren’t in production any more but will spend money at GW because I like the fact no matter where I have lived in the world Iv always been able to play Warhammer games of some sort. Where as other cheaper games with less of a following not so much.
GW will no doubt charge nearly as much for the new Heresy plastics as FW... That being said GW might surprise me, although knowing GW, can't say I am too optimistic.
One thing that the brit don't even realize is how good you have it when it comes to the second hand market. Over here in canada getting anything from ebay would most of the time double the prices thanks to shipping.
So what makes me the most upset about GW and recaaters is they CAN beat them on price. One of the big things they always say they can't win with. The Indomitus box was such a good price that when it frist released (at least in the US) I could get the box for like 170 bucks after tax in store. I was buying the necron halves for like 65 bucks. Recasts of that box are about 220-250 and some times 300. They can be competitive. They choose not to be. Granted that price window was limited because GW CHOSE not to make more.
I have a FW krieg army the only recasts I have is 60 kriegmen because 10 is $110 Australian and command squad and Mars pattern leman russ because starting in the hobby for the first time the only thing I wanted was a FW krieg army and all I could afford was recast at the time I save every sent I could to buy real FW models now I have a mecharius vanqucher, carnodon battle tank, and a GW leman Russ. And Thanks to the nice people that let me use the recasts in a battle not a over powerd army I lost all games but one thanks to victory points.
Can’t tell it’s a recast once it’s painted and such is what I’ve used given I’ve had to go that route for the old Tyranid terrain as an example. Doesn’t help their greedy as shit with the prices as well and all I do is collect to paint snd display on my shelves because F the local players and demanding I die walking into a gun line every game. Sadly last week I went back on a rule I’ve had to only get select things like Red Gobba. Stupidly I got the Be’lakor model just to find out the recaster who has my trust and treats me like I’m not just a wallet has it for 1/3 the price of GW…….. Well F…
8:15. Bootleg Games Workshop products are way easier to shift than for Flames Of War; FoW is niche, Warhammer is well known. If you're looking to sell some bootleg model kits to a bunch of 12 and 13 year-olds, they are most likely to want Warhammer, Star Wars, or Dungeons & Dragons. The big sellers are always the first products to get copied. btw, who the hell pays to stream music? Spotify Premium is stupidly expensive and pointless because the only thing it does is make the ads skipable. I've never paid for music.
I used to buy recasts and third party minis before moving on to 3D printing. I was annoyed GW weren't making Praetorians. There was a time I'd happily snap them up if offered officially. But with 3D printing I don't have to buy tons of bits from everywhere. I can just print whatever is in my head for the price of a coffee. I can't speak for anyone else but knowing what I know now. I'm done with GW. I don't even play Warhammer anymore. I switched to Grimdark Future. I think purchaseable PDFs and 3d printed minis are the future of the hobby. And I think GW will be left behind.
I don't have an issue with recasts of products that are no longer available, as somoeone said in the comments (sorry can't remember who): I. buy my products however if the company won't sell it to me then I'll get a recast
Just look at Australian prices and then say that “we’re hurting GW by buying recasts”. Fuck, getting into this hobby is so fucking expensive if it’s not the armies that their pushing in starter kits.
If a company does not enforce their copyright, then they loose the right to that copyright, this is standard for copyright law across the world. If GW does not allow the lawful sale of their copyrighted material, ie old models/kits, and have taken no legal action to enforce their copyright, then GW/simps have no legal right to bitch. At least Disney enforces their copyright to "Steamboat Mickey" by having it up on their youtube channel. If GW was a company that had any loyality to the community, instead of milking us dry, if GW allowed us to buy old models, if GW had done one fucking thing to learn our respect, then I would disagree with recasting, but as a business, GW disgusts me, and I'm a retired business consultant.
Funny think these mini (chaplain) were available not long ago at 23.5$ca (canadian), they remove them from the webstore 3-6 month ago I think. Now they show up at 35$ca ! what a ripoff. The chaplain with jump pack is at 30$ca and the Lord Executioner at 30$. So because they advertise them with an exclusive made to order they gain 17%-48% price increase !? Well Brrrrr Brrrrrr 50% off stl at all 3D file provider, resin pack discounted, 3D printer start at 99$. And on the video topic like most I look for out of production item and when I order from FW and got a failcast (so uneven production). Some recaster fix the bad casting before recasting them ! The tide is turning IMO.
If GW/FW no longer decides to produce something, they shouldn’t complain when some decides to buy a recast of such models. Since they’re not making such items, then they’re NOT losing money.
A case in point; Horus heresy torsos for space marines.
Pretty much. I've bought a recast of the japanese exclusive malignat plaguecaster which GW hasn't produced in a few years. I was really hoping when they released SM heroes outside of japan they would release that too but they didn't GW didn't want my money so I went with a recaster.
That's a bit of a bullshit argument. Anime figures are often limited runs, and people will pay more money because they know that the figure may never be available again if they don't buy it. The same applies to gaming models; any model that you know will be available _forever_ drops in perceived value. Limited availability always raises the value of an item. The reason some OOP models fetch high prices is _scarcity._
If you don't have enough Horus Heresy SM torsos, you should have bought more when they were in production.
@@herculeholmes504 for the people who care about legitimate products they can still buy them. There is a reason damn near every time legitimate products typically sell for way more than fakes no matter how good the fakes are. Just look at video games. Everyone can buy a $50 raspberry pi or just use tech they have laying around and play nearly every old video game for free. That doesn’t stop used boxed copies of Super Mario RPG for going for $200. Heck companies do reproduce retro games with all the same stuff and more, yet originals are are still worth more.
In the end if you own a legitimate rare figure it doesn’t hurt you that someone buys a recast, it doesn’t even hurt gw as they no longer sell it. If it worked that way all retro consoles/games would be worthless at this point.
@@amn1088 To an extent yes. But there is a limit top how much people are willing to pay for a genuine item before they are seduced by bootleg product.
Sometimes it doesn't matter because it's a product I was not going to buy at the original asking price, and would not buy as an expensive OOP product either; I have two recast kit anime figures that I'll be painting up some time; I'd like to have bought the originals but I only found out about them after they went OOP and the prices went sky-high; the resin kits are unpainted and need a lot of work to prepare so most people would not see them as an equal alternative to the genuine complete painted PVC plastic models.
In the case of Games Workshop products though, the bootlegs are made and sold en-masse, and in direct competition. It may not affect GW's bottom line so much when it's recasts of OOP models, but FOMO is still important to profits; you are less likely to buy some of the existing current models because you know that a few years from now they'll still be available as recasts. If you thought they would not be available as recasts in the future, you'd be more likely to buy them now while they are still available.
Of course, that would leave you with less money to spend on future models.
In the case of retro video games, TBH although I often go through phases of playing old 8-bit and 16-bit games I don't think I'd ever buy a real console or computer or games because it's so much easier to play on an emulator, and I can get almost everything for free. It's a somewhat different world though; some people have got the space to have a whole room dedicated to retro gaming and they buy CRT televisions and monitors to capture the original look of the games which cannot be properly reproduced on LCD/LED screens.
@Hercule Holmes That argument only applies to limited edition releases anyway. Many models have always been run as unlimited availability to begin with; you could buy as many as you wanted. But over time the demand for them has dropped and they've been put out of production for that reason, or because they've been replaced. Nothing to do with GW making them scarce on purpose because they were never limited runs to begin with. From a legal perspective, sure selling recast is still illegal. But in practicality buying a recast of a really old oop model is completely fine.
My personal stance has always been I buy where possible but if the company literally won't sell it to me then I'll get a recast.
In practical terms this means that I have about 3000pts of 30k Alpha Legion, that's including FW upgrade packs, weapons, etc. Yet I also have one recast Autillion Skorr, that FW literally won't sell me.
Do I feel bad for recasting a model they literally won't sell me? Like fuck I do.
Basically how I feel about Mark 2 battle plate. Either I'm buying it from TortugaBay or a recaster, either way GW doesn't get money from me for Mark 2's they could be selling me right now. Virtually everything else in my 30k army is ebay or FW.
There's entire ranges of models that are not made anymore that I can *only* access via recasting/3d printing. As a customer being told "too bad. you weren't around to buy it when it was made" isn't an argument. If it was nobody would ever reprint older products of any kind, be it media or physical goods.
My stance is buy legit when it makes sense, buy recasts when it makes sense. Any models that can only be found second hand for crazy prices easy go with recasts. 99% of the rest of the time its not worth my time working with resin to buy recasts over standard product offerings. Probably the only things I have bought recasts of in those lines are the transcendant c'tan(Sorry gw I am not paying $140 just to get a little character model and a bunch of plastic I don't want or need), and resin parts to be able to use the rest of the bits in the immortals box. Sorry GW I think its dumb that literally only 3 pieces are shared between immortals and deathmarks aka the legs, chest and spine. The arm holding that connects the gun isn't even shared between the immortals and deathmarks. So you are buying two half sprues and only really using one half sprue which drives me crazy, I am cool with extra bits but this is just crazy.
I'd like to know how many that shout down recasts have ever downloaded music or a film or tv show as a torrent. (or for older gamers) ever taped a friends album, or music off the radio.. Or even bought pirate DVD's or video cassettes back in the day. Even today, for your car, you can get cheap items that look the same as the high end stuff. I do fully understand and support artists and sculptors getting paid and not ripped off.
Most if not all of them
@@01oo011 More than likely!
Whatever about current gw artists but all of their sculptors are employees making a wage not like they're getting a commission on each sculpt of theirs sold so they've already been paid.
@@prdalien0 aye, true. When I wrote that, I was thinking about musical artists as well as small independent sculptors and artists.
@@kennethmacgregor-Gregorach Just go for the throat and ask them if they pay for pornography.
This is why I buy on EBay; plausible deniability. "Oh, I got that Sicaran from a seller in Texas, I had no idea it was a recast."
If its already painted nobody will be able to tell if its a recast or not.
I can completely understand making your own recasts. Something that is incredibly easy to do with a bit of practice.
For example I've seen homemade recast of the resin Eldar that look as good as the existing sculpt.
As well as indistinguishable from original MK4 Marines.
GW is fucked at this rate
The rule we have at our local gaming store is “don’t recast anything the store sells.” Forge world , out of print/stock models are fine.
Pretty much the same here, support your local shop but other than that go ahead.
Im not going to pay 35 GBP for a single fucking marine sized character.
@@19Crusader91 that’s why I generally kitbash characters
I found a recaster last month that does stuff for a 3rd of the price that fw does, I haven’t looked back since because £41 for a 5 man assault squad with no upgrades is stupid
Britbong here: Since GW has no interests in selling me the models I want to get, I will go elsewhere to people who are more than happy to sell the item I am interested in.
It's entirely their fault, if they didn't act like such pricks to customers With low quality casts then maybe they wouldn't have lost a customer.
Side note: raising prices to absurd levels is no good for anyone and at the very least needs to be investigated by trading standards.
It's cope on the end of people who want to justify buying models more expensive than necessary.
Also chancs are they're only gamers rather than hobbyists.
Anyone buying legit models from 30 years ago definitely aren't just mere 'gamers'. I don't see the logical follow-through in your statement.
@@Tatti12321 I mean, this is a case where someone chose to recast and got shamed for getting a 30 year old model yeah, because there are alot of old minis no longer available 1st hand and the company will rip you off with offering to sell you nostalgia.
And arguments I've seen towards not recasting all tend towards the tabletop, most common being 'how am I supposed to tell which unit is what?' or 'you'll just buy a recast and complain about conceding 10 points'.
Both come from people who just play tabletop and don't consider the barriers to entry for other people or that they paint minis but may not specifically play Warhammer and may choose to use what they already have.
Also the latter is straight up toxicity bred by GW to encourage people to commit to an "official" style of game, you can see with the 40K BatRep channels where they don't do narrative games anymore and the focus has been pulled away from games outside of 500-2000 for 40K.
Before you say 'just play elsewhere', consider that alot of the time people will only have one or maybe 2 places at most to play and if this idea is promoted then you've essentially been barred for not buying into the Citadel hype.
@@oliverp3545 It benefits the borderline monopolistic company that its customers are conditioned to react to perceived brand disloyalty with hostility.
I have very little respect for big companies, as a rule. Much less ones that use their outsized market dominance to program vast swaths of the wargaming hobby into being the company's eternal zealot defenders. GW does not deserve this loyalty. No brand does.
@@Bluecho4 yeah it's genuinely concerning when people develop parasocial bonds to a brand when they are just a number for them.
I belive that many ppl have never built another plastick kit from another manufacturer before and think gw isnt THAT expensive. But in reality you can get a gunpla for 90€ that has more plastic than the indomitus box and has actually no need for glue unlike indomitus and has much more desing work in it....
Or another thing is a modern tamya kit for 40€ thats the size of a knigth and literally just falls together and has better detail than even the best kits from FW or GW.
Or a miniart kit that has a full interior and a box the size of indomitus full of plastic for just about 80€ and you end up paying almost nothing per sprue. I think my t-44 had something like over 20 sprues and thats if you dont count the duplicates for the individual tracks or the tiny sprues for the details that go on the fenders
@@Luna832 warlord games infantry boxed.30 X 28mm ww2 minis with huge amount of parts or Rubicon tanks 1 kit all varients of a tank and even some have full Interiors all cheaper than GW equivalent
Gunplas are one of the best example out there of what REAL quality and right price is, ESPECIALLY when you put them next to the GARBAGE monopose robot GW sell, like the contemptor dread.
I just call chinaforge, forgeworld aftermarket. What a rename cannot do.
Has anyone ever use gunpla model for admech archeotech titan and orks titans
This hobby is for me alone in my little world. So i will get and buy whatever i want whenever i want. Genuine model or a recast makes no difference to me.
GW no longer makes what I want to buy leaving me no choice but to buy recasts of products they used to make.
Same.
GW could make a fortune providing these models on a by order basis, they could even charge absolutely extortionate amounts of cash and STILL get away with it with zero repercussions other than stacks of cash
Normally we'd have to be responsible and support the company that gives us the things we like. Here we have an example of something they can't provide and the company is a parasite on us for abusing a franchise that they've swooped in on, as it's marketing and legal that now runs everything, to the detriment of everyone.
The law is not just the law, especially if it's unenforceable and even more so when the company can't prove damages, which they can't regarding recasts of out of print models.
The people supporting GW on this topic are bandwagon simps with no morals or principles or their own.
The funny thing with that "we have to be responsible and support the company that gives us the things we like" is that people who use it always ignore the flip side of that coin which is "we dont have any obligation to support a company that gives us things we don't like" like absurdly overinflated prices.
@@Pers0n97 Agreed, customers also need to keep the company on their toes. I've written many complaints to GW, something that most, no doubt, can't be bothered to.
Dark Miniatures, Black Legion Market, Black Market Miniatures
I work in a small, working family owned military surplus shop, where we sell historical and modern military clothes. A considerable percentage of the product that is delivered to us is in some way or form damaged, obviusly, as some is almost 80 years old. But we still try to offer good deals to our customers, we fix whatever can be fixed and offer discounts when things cant fixed. And still some customers feel outraged when a soviet shirt from the afghan war is slightly damaged or if a 80's dutch coat has a missing button. In contrast, I don't understand how the warhammer community doesn't demand higher quality from GW or FW, every single kit I've got in 2020 and 2021 has had horrible mold lines or suffered from extreme air bubbles... now that i think, my shop also sells replicas, wich have consistent quality, and are, in general, cheaper. Got me thinking... 🤔
So long as you clearly signpost which products are originals and which are replicas, I don't see the problem.
Which country? I do have an interest in a specific camo.
I'm in that group. the model was discontinued 31 years ago, the only way you can find them is to go on eBay, and pay upwards of £100GBP for one that's coated in 18 layers of paint and missing pieces, whereas the recasts are generally better quality than the miniature was in the first place. It's still up and going for $26US, I'd have been happy to buy one, if not for the postage to the UK
I came here to post that exact same sentiment. It looked like the original box too
If you are a brand fetishist, you have to buy the e-bay item. If you are a collector, you don't even think about it, and buy the recast. If you are a gamer, you just look for great quality that won't get noticed! ^_^
I like the old 80s and early 90s WHFB and side lines stuff GW did. I have three choices. Buy/sculpt models that resemble it. Wait for ages on eBay and potentially get overcharged while somethings will always be expensive due to rarity/demand or buy recasts which are cheaper than modern GW.
I don't even touch eBay any more, it's just as bad with old sculpts if not worse.
Clearly the only sensible thing to do is wait three decades and hope GW updates the range that they haven't touched.
Econ 101
The Black Market only exists when The Market fails in some way...
I do, and will continue to buy recasts as long as they are as good as FW quality (which is EXTREMELY common) and is priced appropriately.
If a god damn russian in a shed can give item of the same or even higher quality than FW, for a fraction of the price why shouldn't I take that offer?
ESPECIALLY when GW and FW keep increasing their price higher and higher?
I have NO respect for GW as a business because they dont respect me as a customer and anyone trying to pull the "but it's theft" and "we need to support them so they keep doing stuff" I'd just respond that GW stop qualifying for that kind of argument when they increased their margin way, WAY over what would have been fair and reasonable for the consumers.
As GabeN famously said "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. ... It's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from
the pirates."The only oen to blame here is GW.
I like to buy boxes from my official local retailer (I live in Russia), but they dont sell eveything you need for an army (good luck if you want to collect eldar or tyranids, lmao) and also recasts are just more customer friendly for me than ordering directly from manufacturer. It's so difficult to order and ship something from GW or FW official site. I once had one such instance - they lost my DE Ravager and it was a paint to get a refund. I'll just continue to buy recasted stuff that I can't get in convenient way or which don't sells in Russia.
Edit: some spelling
I have a simple rule. When comparing similar products, the better quality and/or cheaper price get my money. Recast is both compare to what forgeworld gives.
The only way to get Mk.II marines is recasting. Recently I've started Iron Warriors army so I wanted them to be Mk.II-III heavy. But I can't get official mk2 models anymore.
I remember buying recasts of Ork Kommandos several years ago of a quality that was equal to that of GW. Why? Well, GW had decided that the kit was no longer available from them, so if I wanted it I had to look elsewhere. It just so happened that where I looked was selling as many as I wanted to buy for cheaper than that would have been from GW, if they had been selling them. Which they were not.
Would I and have I bought recasts for GW products? Yes. All day long, no regrets. Fuck 'em. Would I buy recasts from any other miniature company? No. Because a lot of gaming and miniature companies really do need my money to survive. For some companies that are miniature and scale agnostic I still go out of my way to buy their models to help ensure the health and longevity of a game system that I love.
I don't think i know of another company then GW that has so predatory marketing tactics when it comes to their models.
How many companies have you seen disable youtube comments on their videos for instance, just because they know they would have to face up to a lot of vitriol built over the years? I honestly can't name one (maybe i follow to few).
They have encouraged in a lot of ways a very dog eat dog internet community on top of that.
It's a real shame really, because the worlds they built up are quite something.
The more they would cultivate a positive community, the fewer problems like these they would have.
It's exactly the same thing that happens in the PC gaming community, games without DRMs who have good developers and cultivate a positive community experience, haven't got as many problems with piracy as others that put on full drm jackets to the point of stifling the gaming experience for their paying customers.
So im not defending theft per se and the lines are not as clear cut imo, also the laws need to be updated for a digital age, but it is very much a problem of GWs own making.
to add on, slightly off tangent, it's why this dislike getting disabled thing sucks: it is the bad corporations and scammers who benefit from no dislike button, not small YTbers with mental health struggles
Dude, GW is legit the only company I know that has a sub only chat on twitch.
@@Pers0n97 they have that? wow. weird, really weird
The original post was reasonable; the guy wanted the eBay listing to tell the truth that it was a recast and not Forge World. Which is fair enough.
But after that it devolved into a thread of people telling other people how to spend their money.
I never understood the people whining about cheap ebay FW of out of production minies being recast.
Either they legit thought it was a real one and thought they could literally scam someone by underpaying for it, in that case they have no right to whine about being scammed, or they legit thought it was real and wouldn't have bought it anyway, in that case they are frankly stupid and dont deserve any sympathy.
YOU KNOW what you get on ebay when you buy a cheaper than FW site FW model, from a seller that sells a dozen of them, and is usually based in eastern europe.
The seller is responsible for being honest about the details of the product. If everything is being done correctly, the listing should not show Forge world or GW as the manufacturer, it should be left blank except for when it is genuine. That's how I check to see if something may be recasted. Otherwise, I assume everything listed from Russia is probably a recast. But when people falsely represent their recast as made by FW or GW, and you underpay, you didn't try to scam the buyer, people get low results on auctions all the time. The seller determined the conditions of the sale. The whole point if eBay is price discovery via auction. As long as all parties share their info openly, there is no fraud.
I actually was confronted with this two days ago when I realized I wanted more Horus Heresy legion torso's for my future project(s) and I remembered that these things are out of production for ages. You literally can't get these anymore just like you can't get the old FW Dreadnoughts or the old FW Terminator shoulder pads etc. So if you can't get them from FW anymore what are you supposed to do if you ignore recasters? Just accept that you can't have these items that could highly customize your legion force?
This is the point that I don't get with FW/GW and people that criticize recasting of OLD models. It's not like piracy for old movies or video games, you can still download those most of the time in the official stores. These are literally unavailable products that you can't get your hands on through any means besides recasting. Also the things that get out of production are ludicrous sometimes. As I stated with the legion torso upgrade packs. These items give your legion a huge boost in personality and general accuracy to how a specific legion force would have looked in the universe of 30k. It's not just some old model that's not nessecary anymore. These are basic infantry upgrade items for each legion that you will need if you want to field an accurate force.
It just boggles my mind that GW/FW haven't put these items back into production and even moreso that people manage to criticize this practice sitting on top of their ivory tower. Thank god there are still some easily findable recasters out there because I live with the fear everyday that I wake up and they are pulled from the web due to GW's lawyers. How will I then complete my collection? I don't have the money right now to shell down 300,- + EUR on plastic. What are the options?
If you are a brand fetishist, yes you have too. If you are a collector, you don't even think about it, and buy the recast. If you are a gamer, you just look for great quality that won't get noticed! ^_^
@@MrSandor1968 My worry is that GW removes all recasting websites and therefor takes away our ability to get our hands on out of production sculpts and bits. To me it's all plastic. I don't mind buying from elementgames for in production stuff but for things I can't get my hands on that's just insane that you have to bounce from recasting website to recasting website as GW hunts them down.
Well put sir!
On the point of value; there is no loss in value. The buyer paid what they were willing to pay for it. That was the value of it to them. If it were too much they wouldn't have got it. No value lost. If they bought it as qn investment because it is an original rare item it still is and will continue to be. Others having cheaper reproduction versions of item doesn't effect that
Recasters are the least of GW's problems.
That new DUNE movie completely ripped off GW's IP.
Ditto Alien, Judge Dread, Star Wars, Blade Runner, Everything Tolkien wrote, etc ....
Skynet has got a new enemy, its name is GW
LOL there were a few post on the 40k reddit that were actually serious that "Did Dune rip off Warhammer?" I fucking died bunch of morons on that sub
3d printer goes brrr
I wish recasters would do resin versions of the RT sculpts. It woulden't mess with the collectors market and would give people access to scarce parts, or super limited run minitures like the cyber-minotuar.
Better yet, STLs.
@@bryan131 those get nuked real fast, legit I'd find a few every week and they'd be gone by the end of the day.
I want some recasts of those metal imperial guard minis they made in the 90s. Those old cadians are amazing, the RT troops are great too but I doubt any recasters are able to recast those though.
@@coh2conscript851 i know what you mean. I really enjoy the 89' and early 90' scuplts right before the first cadian minis were released.
@@BingGuss Dude, the classic troopers were so great. It's a shame that we'll never get a box set with that much character again. (that and 36 miniatures in one box is pretty great)
Just dropped here to say great video Macca, keep up the good work!
I was very excited over the chaplain reruns. Wanted all 4, and with how the image on warcom was presented, thought it was a 4 pack. Was hoping it would be perhaps $80USD for the set, or $20ish if split, remembering how much they were back in the day and comparing their price to similar still available finecast models. On average, older finecast minis seem to be $20-25 on their site for a standard marine sized mini.
When I saw it was $30 each for these sculpts that are going on what, 15 years old? I immediately began looking through my list of known recasters, as I'm not being scalped by the company that's producing them. And that's what this is, scalping. Only difference is, they control all supply.
The funniest (or saddest) part here is that thos minies are literally cheaper than the "current" chaplains.
The primaris chapelian is 45$ while the "new-old" first born chapelain is now 40$.
This means that thos limited reruns are actually the cheapest chapelains out there (well, the jump pack one is still 30$ for some strange reason, I guess they just forgot to "adjust" its price yet.
@@Pers0n97 oh yeah, still "cheapest," but for minis that have equivalent models still in the range (finecast firstborn), being made arbitrarily more expensive... it's just ridiculous. Not to mention the cost of the new plastic ones is bloated anyhow. I get that any HQ won't sell volume like squads, but still.
Especially when the finecast Masters of the Chapter box has 4 very nice HQ's for $3 more than a SINGLE finecast chaplain. It's just ridiculous how they make numbers seemingly appear from thin air.
For me the conundrum isn't an issue of price so much as it is quality with currently in print items. Yes you could go through FW and avoid jumping through hoops, but is the product going to be any good? Why pay a premium for an inferior product?
The real recast argument is about who makes the best ones.
Me: pffft, recasting is so 2010s... (pours some more resin into printer)
Hm? These recasts? Oh yeah I definitely made them at home with my own RTV silicone and resin which, thanks to UK laws I'm completely entitled to do so.
Ever easier: "hm? this minies? 100% real one ofc."
@@Pers0n97 Doesn't really work when you've got a resin version of a mini that was only available in plastic or metal.
@@IVIaskerade and how anyone could tell the difference when painted? Hell most metal minies got recasted in resin by gw itself at somme point.
I want at least 9 of the old FW casterferrum dreadnoughts. FW doesn't make them, I don't want to pay 2x the price for 2nd hand I can get them from a recaster for basically the same as FW used to charge
If your recaster gives you the same price than old FW, it's not a great recaster.
Gw hasn't released a new Tyranid model in 7 years and counting.
Meanwhile i can download an STL file and print for a fraction of the mini cost, that is of higher quality then their current sculpts, that's emulating a sculpt from the 1990s.
It's crazy.
I bought a bunch of Eldar troops on Ebay - are they recast? maybe? maybe not? all I know is, I paid a price closer to the value of a25 year old kit than what GW wants
You forgot the best part: Buying that printer and the serine will cost you less than buying a starter box for 40k
Interesting discourse. Thank you for putting this out.
Recasts are the future.
I’ll also add that GW does have shops.
Which is a plus for them.
On a downside, they literally charge 20-40% more to people in Aus and NZ just because they can. Don’t forget Forgeworld products come out of exactly the same warehouse to go to Australian customers as they do for UK customers and they charge 40% more PLUS shipping.
I honestly can’t see how people can so blindly defend GW and belittle those that buy recast miniatures
Good Job Macca! Extra Gravy for you
Yup that was the worst thing FW did was switch to regional pricing like main line GW. In Canada it was cheaper to buy a FW army then it was to buy a plastic GW army. Hence why Heresy became popular way before FW released the black books. Most of those armour marks where already available because of the badab war line. It killed FW overnight (the regional pricing) and now we have the mess we are in now.
I mean, if you view toy soldiers as an investment.... as any competent financial adviser will tell you, the value of your investment can go down as well as up.
my retirement plan is built on collectors desperate for 40 year old legit models that are out of production
If they don't provide the product- I have every right to look elsewhere. In addition, GW's prices are way in excess of what the items are worth- and no- 40k IS NOT a luxury product- GW just prices it as such and people buy into circular logic where because something is priced high it must be a luxury product.
I will continue to 3d print bits they don't sell and buy from my lgs at a discount.
Most of Russian or Ukrainian recasts are miles ahead of crappy FW. They feel almost like plastic, and have no bubbles. FW looks like a cheap recast in comparison. GW’s plastic is the best tho.
Bought a knight lancer from russian recasters. Only problems were brittle chains on the banners, a missing hatch on the carapace, missing toe and a huge resin chunk on the head. I received two extremely fine detail oop admech cerastus knight heads. I cleaned the standard head but the gesture was nice.
The Predator/Rhino extra armour kit I purchased from a Chinese caster was far better quality than the FW one. The chinese casts fit nice and snug. And glued on first time, no fuss, no muss.
The forge world bits required me to do a lot of filing and heating to fit the part.
Can confirm.
I've tried a couple of them and every times I got an excellent product.
Funnily enough, recasts are often of even better quality than 3D printed stuff nowadays.
Brand loyalty is hard to sustain at those prices...
Oi Jams me boy, we need a video on what makes a good zone mortalis board, I want to get into it, but I have no clue how to build my boards without leaving it in a million pieces!
+1
I'll be 3d printing one starting in January, so hold out.
Very interesting thoughts. Thank you for the video :)
Look at the Cadian Guardsmen box, at the start of 8th edition it was $25 USD. Then about half way through they increased it to $35 USD for seemingly no reason as the kits stayed the same. And then with the beginning of 9th they added a single sprue with heads and finally special weapons while increasing the price to $45 USD. It's ridiculous as they nearly doubled the price in less than 4 years and this is a box every guard player needs in massive quantities.
Lmao even THESE comments are full people who think it is their job to support a stupidly powerful company.
No plans on buying anything but recast. The quality and vision that would accord this sort of loyalty died long ago.
Continuing to buy anything from GW is like ordering extra to feed a tape worm.
Well expressed.
The Music point I was just thinking: "hmmm PDF army books?"
I buy a second hand land raider for the World eaters post heresy "chaossy" on it clean ed them and recast them with silicon and gravity also some "out of stock " without stamping ;-) etchen brass on Ebay
What does Games Workshop offer anymore if
1. The rules are bad and expensive.
2. The lore is progressively getting worse.
3. The miniatures are prohibitively expensive, and, in Forge World's case, casting quality control is non existent.
The models are getting worse too. The OOP forgeworld Hydra is better than the current plastic Hydra, the OOP Leman Russ Vanquishers from Forgeworld compared to the plastic one. And the old Baneblades compared to the current plastic ones.
Its crazy that
1 i can download a free rules set that can be boiled down to one double sided page.
2 i can ignore the lore or make my own up
3 find stl files for models that can be printed at a fraction of the price, as well as models that aren't even made anymore.
@@Cynidecia It’s even crazier that with all of those resources available, there are people who are still more than happy to deal with Games Workshop.
The folks working on and around Inquisitor 28 and 28mag may be insufferably pretentious from time to time, but they’re the only ones I really see doing their own thing with 40k.
I’d also like Macca to make more content around the other games he’s shown: Hate, X-Wing, A Song of Ice and Fire, Ankh, Etc.
@@megumin1054 i'd say in some ways models are better, in others they are worse
4. The company overall is starting to get more and more woke
chaplain with crozius and bolt pistol was either 18 or 22 dollars when i got into the hobby back in 2010. i say this as i own the model
I recently bought a 3d printer and found 1 page rules. I haven't looked back. The can keep their plastic, I wont support them anymore which makes me sad as I love 40k but I won't support them until drastic price changes and company attitude changes. They can keep their "premium" hobby status and choke on it.
Spot on analysis.
I'm a parasite and I'm OK
I build all night and paint all day
He’s a parasite and he’s OK
He builds all night and paints all day
I buy recasts, I 3D print,
I download PDF‘s,
Sometimes I order Transfers
With my mate‘s staff discount
He buys recasts, he 3D prints,
He downloads PDF’s,
Sometimes he orders Transfers
With his mate’s staff discount
He’s a parasite and he’s OK,
He paints his stuff in time to play
I’m not a Simp, I won’t forget,
How they’ve treated me.
But I still love the hobby
Just not the company
He’s not a Simp, He won’t forget,
How they’ve treated him.
He still loves the hobby
Just not the company!
Good video macca. 👍🥲
It's your money, do what you want with it.
Those chaplains arent all in metal. Some are finecast.
Funnelling money into GW doesn't mean they will produce what you or any customer wants necessarily, especially if you have had to compromise on what you wanted when you made the purchase i.e having to buy into primaris scale, being forced to buy a certain package like a combat patrol or army set for limited run models etc. All it does is affirm GW's current practices, meaning you won't get any more from them than what you get now. Heresy being one of their most inconsistent ranges is a particularly bad business model to give positive feedback on through purchases.
That whole "we need to support that smoll indy company" mentality is one of the most stupid shit the fanboys always try to pull.
GW is a BILLIONS COMPANY, not struggling starving artist, and they made all their money via underhanded tactics and milking nostalgia.
I can show u some recast next to some of my offical GW store bought minis "Same Mini" and 9 out of 10
Would rather have the recast than the GW model.
Not paying those ridiculous prices for resin/plastic. I recast almost everything GW/Forgeworld. Piracy is a function of shitty company/customer service and horrendous pricing. Fix those and the piracy issue dies.
Ethics change as society does.
Happy to be a parasite. The only GW models I'm happy to shell out for are commemorative ones that stay in box.
The Chaplains rereleases is hilarious:
I wasn't really in 40k at the time of these getting released originally. So was tempted, but I genuinely thought "wait, these are just old moulds off the shelf, so no new design, but you are charging like these are new first born marines models for no reason other than people will pay for nostalgia and brand loyalty"
@@DarkAlex1978 though it does wipe out a lot of the collector's investment when the OOP becomes IP again.
But as I said, I like the old designs. I'm just baffled that they essentially upmarket the model when it's identical to before - not like they threw away the mould and had to remake it identically
@@darko-man8549 It really gets even funnies when you look at the bigger pictures.
The old Jumpack Chapelain is still at 30$ (guess they just missed it for the anual price increase).
The reruns are at 35$.
The new (old) first born chapelain is at 40$ (so literally higher than the limited runs).
And the primaris chapelain is at 45$.
(btw, they made sure to make the primaris chapelain way, WAY better for only 5pts, so getting a first born chap is basically pointless from a game point of view).
@@Pers0n97 oh obvious. The Primaris Chaplain is FAR FAR better
Nice!!! I feel like I’m part of this story :-)
Im a broke as fuck uni student that loves putting together miniatures but because of how much gws models cost I would have to sell both of my lungs, a kidney and both of my legs at a minimum to even think about building the three armies I want one of them for display one for both display and painting and one as a "retro" marine army basically. So I recast for myself old model kits, and some of the kits that I really love and only for myself. I basically have to become a drug seller, a phone repairman/seller, or some kinda job that exceeds 80k a year at a minimum to be able to afford everything for living etc, and to be able to basically think about buying a kit maybe once a month at most.
Another reason for getting recast rt era minis... Resin is better than metal.
The community is more to blame than GW at this point.
They enable all of this.
Kinda.
Its a case of GW actively removing sensible people from the community by pricing them out, thus leaving behind only the most braindead consoomers.
Love the 'fair warning' dropping down ^^
Basically kids, if GW brought its prices down by 35% people would be more than happy to buy them..
I chose 35% because in reality GW would still be selling its goods on a decent mark up. Trust me when I know this is a fact.
It's not a secret, the fact that a Land Raider sprue is less than a dollar out of the factory is a pretty well known fact.
Their Christmas battle forces are no skin off their noses.
Piracy happens. It becomes a "problem" when a company overprices an item and complicated by bad customer service, which can be a large number of different issues. GW happens to tick a lot of boxes that set them up for failure.
I only buy from two recasters, they've both done well, but there's somthings I'll buy from gw.
The pricing is what is slowly driving me to recasters more and more...and when I can buy old models that Forge World pulled *last chance to buy on* I see no problem with recasters. I'd rather buy from a recaster with a lower price and risks, than to pay full price from forge world, get a bad cast and wait wait see if they will refund or send a new part
so the space marine chaplains varied in price from 22 aud to 27 aud back in 2013 a couple of years after i got into the hobby
conveniently I had the sense back in 2013 to save copies of the range lists for marines, guard, chaos marines and blood angels from the gw webstore so yeah paying double for some of those models and almost double for others is just plain insulting
…just as I was considering building a recasted army of stubborn little heavy-armour-themed Crimson Fists, as a purely fun pursuit of a flavour of marines I love, and hesitating on the decision. I’ve been a newcomer to the hobby for one year and already GW have proved my eighteen-year-old ass out of any hope of sensibly collecting otherwise.
Thanks for the nudge in the right direction, Macca- for your Horus Heresy videos too, as they’ve really inspired my idea of how much genuine love and hard work an army can be given :) you’ve kept me in the hobby in spite of GW, and I’ll do my best to stay true to the spirit veterans like you have shown me over the past few months
I was in your shoes a few years ago before I started making money in my career (mid twenties, completed college). I Wish i could go back to when I started the hobby again when I was 14. You have less army, so each guy is more valuable / special. Cherish these time, for your forces will grow, new armies will go, then they go on the shelf not to get touched. Enjoy your small forces, it will grow or you move on with different interested in life. Enjoy these times and the stories.
You're point about how people justify GW's behavior by saying that they are business which exists to make money, but that that logic also applies to people who buy recasts is very good and something I hadn't considered before.
The people that love to use "it's a business that exists to make money" always miss the obvious point that "yes, and capitalism dictact that we, as consumers, will do our best to get the best deal for our money".
I dont understand why they think that somehow nothing can be done about companies being greedy and you just have to accept it.
@@Pers0n97 Exactly
God damn, this video reminded me of when FORGEWORLD was the cheaper alternative than buying GW 40k kits here in Aus. 2008-2012 was a strange time.
. (I feel bad for other countries around the world which pay like twice as much)
I think forge world takes the piss with there prices. Why I’m looking forward to the new heresy plastic that are definitely coming.
That being said yes this hobby is expensive but when I look at it I don’t think it’s. Once I buy an army I never actually have to buy for it again. I know lots of people who play with units and army’s that are 20 years old. if you say send a £500 on an army and never buy for it again apart from the odd new rules but still play the game you aren’t really spending any money on the hobby and then the company isn’t making money from you.
And let’s be honest, if you get out the hobby and sell your armies etc you make your money back and if it’s nicely painted you will probs make a profit on it.
I buy recasts for models that aren’t in production any more but will spend money at GW because I like the fact no matter where I have lived in the world Iv always been able to play Warhammer games of some sort. Where as other cheaper games with less of a following not so much.
GW will no doubt charge nearly as much for the new Heresy plastics as FW...
That being said GW might surprise me, although knowing GW, can't say I am too optimistic.
One thing that the brit don't even realize is how good you have it when it comes to the second hand market.
Over here in canada getting anything from ebay would most of the time double the prices thanks to shipping.
So what makes me the most upset about GW and recaaters is they CAN beat them on price. One of the big things they always say they can't win with.
The Indomitus box was such a good price that when it frist released (at least in the US) I could get the box for like 170 bucks after tax in store. I was buying the necron halves for like 65 bucks.
Recasts of that box are about 220-250 and some times 300. They can be competitive. They choose not to be.
Granted that price window was limited because GW CHOSE not to make more.
As long as GW&FW sells the stuff for hillarious prices, i prefere a recaster with similar quality and the half of the price for the same product.
Dude... I just want a quality Caestus cast. Is that too much to ask? I've tried so many... places.
I have a FW krieg army the only recasts I have is 60 kriegmen because 10 is $110 Australian and command squad and Mars pattern leman russ because starting in the hobby for the first time the only thing I wanted was a FW krieg army and all I could afford was recast at the time I save every sent I could to buy real FW models now I have a mecharius vanqucher, carnodon battle tank, and a GW leman Russ. And Thanks to the nice people that let me use the recasts in a battle not a over powerd army I lost all games but one thanks to victory points.
Can’t tell it’s a recast once it’s painted and such is what I’ve used given I’ve had to go that route for the old Tyranid terrain as an example.
Doesn’t help their greedy as shit with the prices as well and all I do is collect to paint snd display on my shelves because F the local players and demanding I die walking into a gun line every game.
Sadly last week I went back on a rule I’ve had to only get select things like Red Gobba.
Stupidly I got the Be’lakor model just to find out the recaster who has my trust and treats me like I’m not just a wallet has it for 1/3 the price of GW……..
Well F…
8:15. Bootleg Games Workshop products are way easier to shift than for Flames Of War; FoW is niche, Warhammer is well known.
If you're looking to sell some bootleg model kits to a bunch of 12 and 13 year-olds, they are most likely to want Warhammer, Star Wars, or Dungeons & Dragons.
The big sellers are always the first products to get copied.
btw, who the hell pays to stream music? Spotify Premium is stupidly expensive and pointless because the only thing it does is make the ads skipable. I've never paid for music.
Hmmmm buying finecast quality models....or going and getting a metal recast of that same model. I'll take quality and better price every time.
Yeah… paid 600 usd for a resin VSG about a month before the plastic one released at 150 usd
Kick in the pants but I gotta live with it
I used to buy recasts and third party minis before moving on to 3D printing. I was annoyed GW weren't making Praetorians. There was a time I'd happily snap them up if offered officially. But with 3D printing I don't have to buy tons of bits from everywhere. I can just print whatever is in my head for the price of a coffee. I can't speak for anyone else but knowing what I know now. I'm done with GW. I don't even play Warhammer anymore. I switched to Grimdark Future. I think purchaseable PDFs and 3d printed minis are the future of the hobby. And I think GW will be left behind.
I don't have an issue with recasts of products that are no longer available, as somoeone said in the comments (sorry can't remember who): I. buy my products however if the company won't sell it to me then I'll get a recast
Trying to find core units is sometimes months and months between availability...so...recast...substitute...proxy are all fine here...
Companies really are becoming the new deities to these simps huh?
what an era.....
They keep raising the prices, I move further away.
Just painting up my space Hulk termys, cause I would like to play it. But lockdowns prevent that.
Yep. They have gotten $1000's of dollars off me over the last 30 years.
3D printer goes Brrrrrrt.
Woop woop parasites let's go
This could spiral into a larger discussion about the inherently abusive predatory nature of capitalism.
Just look at Australian prices and then say that “we’re hurting GW by buying recasts”. Fuck, getting into this hobby is so fucking expensive if it’s not the armies that their pushing in starter kits.
If a company does not enforce their copyright, then they loose the right to that copyright, this is standard for copyright law across the world. If GW does not allow the lawful sale of their copyrighted material, ie old models/kits, and have taken no legal action to enforce their copyright, then GW/simps have no legal right to bitch. At least Disney enforces their copyright to "Steamboat Mickey" by having it up on their youtube channel.
If GW was a company that had any loyality to the community, instead of milking us dry, if GW allowed us to buy old models, if GW had done one fucking thing to learn our respect, then I would disagree with recasting, but as a business, GW disgusts me, and I'm a retired business consultant.
Funny think these mini (chaplain) were available not long ago at 23.5$ca (canadian), they remove them from the webstore 3-6 month ago I think. Now they show up at 35$ca ! what a ripoff. The chaplain with jump pack is at 30$ca and the Lord Executioner at 30$. So because they advertise them with an exclusive made to order they gain 17%-48% price increase !? Well Brrrrr Brrrrrr 50% off stl at all 3D file provider, resin pack discounted, 3D printer start at 99$. And on the video topic like most I look for out of production item and when I order from FW and got a failcast (so uneven production). Some recaster fix the bad casting before recasting them ! The tide is turning IMO.
It is a complex issue. Most people can't deal with complex issues. Tableltop Gamers should be better with complex issues than average, but still...