While having the spiral book makes for many different board scenes, there is small print text on it that one needs to refer to when certain events occur. With the large game spread on the table I couldn't find any angle to be able to read from without disturbing the setup on the pages. So it got got put away until I can find the time to copy the book so I can refer to the text. It's been a couple of years...
I didn't think about the small text size on the cards/board being an issue but I could definitely see how that could be a problem! I'm sorry you haven't been able to play the game in so long! 😰
I tend to agree with you on games like this, especially campaign games that are mostly battles and less story. And I have realized that I don’t enjoy campaign games where you cannot fail forward. I don’t want to have to repeat the same chapter over and over until I succeed. (This is also why I don’t enjoy most video games where you are spending most of your time leveling up and grinding to advance.) In the 10-20 hours it takes to complete a game like JOTL, I could enjoy 10-15 different euro games, like Brass, Grand Austria Hotel, CoB, Rococo, Coimbra, GWT, etc. For me to stick with a campaign game, it has to have a really good story, fail forward, and minimal fiddliness.
I love the points you made, Eric! I know I'm not the only that felt like JOTL was just grinding, failing, and repeating scenarios while trying to get enough XP to buy items that would help you pass the scenario. I can't imagine being super invested in the game with a game group and getting stuck on a scenario where we'd have to keep coming back to the SAME scenario week after week... I think inevitably we'd just cheat a little bit to move on! And yes-campaign games require a TON of commitment... especially (like you said) we could be playing a whole bunch of phenomenal euro games in the same amount of time! ☺️ Thanks so much for the comment!
Totally agree. I think the amount of time I spent in the rule book and with set up just really killed my desire to keep going. I can’t play every single night, so it seemed like it would be almost a whole night of set up and learning…wait a few days and play and then on that “play” I was still referring to the rule book. The play itself wasn’t bad and the randomness wasn’t super deflating to me (yet). I do think I would like this at 2p, but I know my wife would NEVER try this and I don’t foresee having enough time in the near future on a consistent basis to get through it with any of my friends. I think the reality is that it’s going to sit on my shelf for a long time, unfinished, purely based on how bad I want to like it and hope to be able to have a situation where I will be able to enjoy it one day. It’s an odd form of FOMO on a game I already own.
Absolutely agree with you 100%. I had put the game away for a while and trying to relearn the game after a few months was literally like learning the game totally from scratch. We're talking back to Rodney Smith, re-reading the whole rulebook... there are just SO many little things you can miss otherwise and it's not intuitive enough that you can put the game away, come back to it, and still remember most of the rules! 😣 If Hannah was into this type of game and we could commit to playing it regularly (multiple times a week) that'd be different, but... even then I think I'd rather be playing something else with her! Sorry you're stuck with the game only partially played-how many scenarios in are you?
@@BoardGameDave I mean, I’m glad I got this at $30 or whatever I paid for it. I’ve put less time into games I’ve paid more for before, so not too bummed. Better than having bought regular Gloomhaven for $120. I think I played like 6 or 7.
@@oneysnyder2116 That's a good way of looking at it! I feel the same way: I bought it for $19, played it six times, and then gave it away to someone who really likes Gloomhaven! That's a win to me! ☺
wow you have the same taste as me ... thank you for this review because i have been waffling on if i should buy this game... now i know its not for me ... I do enjoy some randomness in my games but not all the fiddly rules and needing to replay scenarios doesnt sound like fun to me...by the way have you played the Maracaibo expansion yet?
If we have similar tastes in board games, I would suspect that this one would similarly fall flat for you! But maybe give it a try sometime if you get a chance? You never know until you try, right? ☺️ And believe it or not, I still haven't played with the expansion! I'll definitely do that this summer when I can leave it set up on the table and work through the expansion campaign! ⚓️
Likewise, this ain't my jam. But I got it for $15 brand new, in shrink. I figure if I ever change tastes it'll be there on the shelf (or in a storage closet) waiting for me. Also, maybe I can think up some house rules that make it more Euro like. Ah well, I've learned in life to never say never. I don't want to paint myself into a corner, so I'll keep it. Maybe one day I'll enjoy this.
You sound just like me! Definitely not my jam but I got it for cheap and figured I may as well give it a try! 😅 Some house rules to make it more euro... that's very interesting! 🤔 And that's how I try to be, too! Gotta stay open-minded, right? ☺️
I played through maybe 10 scenarios with my partner. We were having less fun and doing more upkeep so we stopped - still worth the price of admission but I'm on your side overall. Scenarios can take a long time and restarting one due to failure is devastating. I will say, in the game's defense, that in spirit it's an elaborate D&D Combat simulator. Approaching the game with the spirit of D&D seems like the best way to enjoy it. In reading a lot of rules forums discussion, house rules are common. You can tweak the game in ways to make it more fun for you and your group. Don't like the MISS combat modifiers? Just take 'em out. I vastly prefer the card deck implementation of modifiers over dice - you can't remove bad dice-rolls from play. The game does do a lot of interesting things well, but I cant imagine playing it over a good PC tactics rpg.
Hey there, Jon! Thank you for your comment! ☺️ Playing ten scenarios definitely sounds like you got plenty of bang for your buck! And yeah, the whole restarting the scenario if you lose thing can be kind of demoralizing! I get what you're saying about it being kind of like a "D&D Combat Simulator". Perhaps I would have enjoyed the game more if I would have approached it with that mindset but I'm also not a big RPG guy and I'm finding more and more than I'm much more a strict, play-by-the-rules, euro gamer than an improv, adventure, rpg-type gamer. And I'm definitely not a house-ruler! 😬 At the end of the day, a PC tactics rpg does sound more satisfying to me than this sort of game!
JoTL is the first "hobby" board game I played, so I didn't even know that Euro or Ameritrash even existed. I played solo and, initially, I did need to consult the manuals... a lot. But then I did things like write a bullet point player aid (wasn't aware that one existed), and while it made the game procedural to begin with, after a scenario I wasn't having to consult it. I also kept the conditions on the base of the minis so I'd remember them and any elements both next to them and on the element board, so I'd remember to use/cycle them. All that said, yep, there should be more mitigation and some more straightforward moves which don't require a card draw. I loved the game, but I'm also a huge fantasy nut, so that helped with immersion, but I can see why a Euro player wouldn't love it... now that I know what Euro means.
Thank you so much for your comment! I especially appreciate that we can very different opinions on the game and still respect each other's perspectives! ☺️ That's wild that JOTL was your first hobby board game-it's certainly not what I would consider a "gateway" game for someone new to the hobby! But it does have its immersive and rewarding moments so I can see how you could be invested and motivated to power through the more fiddly aspects for that fun gameplay reward! For me, it's just not the kind of game I'm typically drawn too, even though I can definitely see and appreciate the merits of the game! ☺️ Thank you again for your thoughts on this game!
As a long term Gloomhaven player and jotl lover I definitely wouldn’t recommend solo play. Rather then working with your friends to coordinate your damage and protecting each other playing solo really just feels like a combat simulator with random multipliers and it’s not particularly fun
Thank you for the comment as someone who enjoys Gloomhaven and JOTL! I suspect I would enjoy this game more at two-player than solo for the reasons you mentioned but like I said, I think at that point I'd rather play something else instead! ☺️
@@BoardGameDave thank you for asking! my favorite games are Pax Pamir 2e, Dune: Imperium, Brass: Birmingham, Pipeline, The Great Zimbabwe and Imperial Struggle!
Even though my tastes align with you in terms of favouring euros over other types, I fairly enjoyed Gloomhaven proper and a ton of points you said are very valid, especially how fiddly status effects are. After a few sessions I stopped bothering with status effects and conditions because, like you, i had to constantly look up what they did and completely ruined the flow of the gameplay, which is more crucial to me than getting the rules right. However, I disagree with your opinion on the randomness of the game. Yes, the game has a ton of randomness, but vast majority of the games contain some elements of randomness, especially if you play solo against an AI. You usually get a deck of cards and you just don't know what action will come up next, which is exactly what Gloomhaven's enemy behaviours are like. The mitigation comes from upgrading your deck, removing bad cards from it and so on, which means as you play more, you can pretty much predict your own outcome for actions. So yeah, I don't have a ton of beef with randomness here, but I probably won't go back to Gloomhaven series (unless somehow Frosthaven lands on my lap suddenly and breaks my thighs) for many of the reasons you eloquantly stated!
Thank you so much for such a thoughtful comment! It's funny because we're very different in regards to "the flow of the gameplay, which is more crucial to me than getting the rules right". I vastly overvalue playing the game correctly over the flow of the gameplay (and over even my own enjoyment of the game) which is probably why I never use house rules... even if they would potentially make the game more fun! 🤣 And you bring up good points about the randomness for sure. The game does let you see what the monsters are going to do so you get to plan around their actions... I suppose it was just the wild swings of the modifier decks that made it feel so random and punishing to me! Thanks again for the comment and for checking out the video!
Thank you for your opinion Dave! I do like JOTL but could agree with your points🤔Especially the randomness made some punishing time for me and my partner😂Surely, I can accept it as a part of the game. It's clearly thematic as you said. Anyway, this is a very helpful review of the game!
Thank you for checking out this video even though you're a fan of the game! I totally agree that the randomness, while punishing, is thematic at least! 😂
I love the Gloomhaven digital version, but I don’t think I’d ever play the physical big box just due to the massive set up and overhead of it. JotL seems much more up my alley. Euro. Thanks for the chance!
you outline your points really well! i will say though, with a game as popular as this, rather than flicking through the rules you can usually just google the question you have and there will be a bgg thread with exactly that question answered. (did this for a few fiddly rules in root, your mileage may vary) obligatory euro insert
Thank you so much for the comment! And you're right-looking up rules clarifications on BGG is a good way to go but I was starting to get frustrated that I couldn't find answers to my questions more quickly in the learn-to-play guide and/or the glossary! And you probably know as well as I do that the BGG rules forums can turn into page after page of disagreements and misinterpretations! 🤣 Good luck with the giveaway! 🍀
@@BoardGameDave that is fair, and when you buy something like this you would be right to expect some tight rule writing. with root for instance, it’s less a problem of interpretation and more a problem of organisation, so most of the time a comment would cite a specific section of the rulebook as to why they believe what they do, so the googling thing would kind of just be used as a more intelligent CTRL + F haha
Hey there, Antonio! Thanks for checking out the video even though you already knew this wasn't a game for you! ☺️ Sidenote: any chance you'll be at Origins this summer?
@BoardGameDave So sorry I won't be. I try to make Cons that have competitive events mostly for my channel. This year I'll be at the WSBG qulifier in Parker, SD, The World Series of Board Gaming and hoping to make it to the World Board Gaming championship in PA.
I feel like JOTL gives you like 90% of what Gloomhaven offers in such a small and self-contained package! ☺️ Hope you get a chance to give it a try sometime!
I just stumbled upon this video this very moment because I was looking for negative reviews on this game. I'm thinking in buying it and wanted to know some cons. Very well done video, thanks for the review.
Hey there! Thanks for stumbling onto this video-I'm not sure how many negative reviews there are for Jaws of the Lion, but I know negative reviews in general are hard to find sometimes! This is a worldwide giveaway so you're good there, and maybe if you win you can just subscribe to the channel real quick in exchange! 🤣 Thank you for the comment!
Thanks for covering JoTL. This one is currently punched and waiting to be tabled at our house. My son is a big DnD fan and is really looking forward to this one. It sounded to me like your issues with the game, at least in my experience, are really just general trends in Dungeon Crawler Campaign games. I had similar issues with Sleeping Gods but I did enjoy it over all. I am interested to see if we run into the same issues with a 2 player set up rather than solo. Oh also, euro.
That's so great that you've already got a copy of JOTL and you're looking forward to playing it! ☺️ From some of the comments I've read so far it sounds like if you approach this game as something closer to a D&D/RPG experience than strictly just a board game you'll enjoy it more? I have a feeling you'll really enjoy this game if you guys are already into and experienced with D&D and dungeon crawler games!
I have played regular Gloomhaven but haven’t been able to give this a try yet. JOL is one that is on my list to pick up. Thank you for this video, there are games that I love that don’t crack many people’s top list. Euro
Does this mean we won't be playing Zombicide together anytime soon? 😂 Not every game is for everyone and I appreciate your honesty. I guess I'll toss my name in the ring and say EURO. (Speaking of Euros, have you played Tiletum?)
Haha, I don't know too much about Zombicide but my guess is that's probably not my kind of game! 😉 And no, I haven't played Tiletum, but Luciani and Tascini are two of my favorite designers! Have you?
thank you for your honest opinion! it's important to be aware of what you like in a game and we need videos like this to help everyone get to know games better. EURO! :)
Thank you for your comment! I try to give a balanced and fair assessment of a game, even if I don't like it personally! Like I said, I certainly don't think it's a bad game and can understand why so many people like it! ☺️ I appreciate you checking out the video!
EURO!!! This game has more positives than negatives IMO.........+Dungeon Crawler...+Randomness=Replayability...the more you play the easier it gets AND the more FUN it is. A gateway to Gloomhaven...
That's so funny because some of those positives are negatives to me (dungeon crawler and randomness) but that's why this hobby is so great! There are games out there for anyone/everyone! ☺️
Great shots man. I enjoyed the angles and lighting. And of course . . . that shirt!!!! You already know I'm with you on your opinions of this. Also only played solo and coop I'd rather try the electronic game. But for me, I'll grab LoTR if I want a dungeon crawl.
Thank you for checking out this video, Mike! I'd like to think the quality of my videos is getting better; I just keep trying to improve small things here and there! ☺️ I love my Board Games for One shirt, man! You know I'll be representing at Origins! 😁 Are you talking about LOTR: Journeys in Middle Earth? That's such a great game! Hannah and I made it through the whole campaign together!
@@BoardGameDave Yessir LOTR. I also had no issue getting through the whole campaign. Still waiting on my badge info for Origins. I'll reach out tomorrow if I don't have it. Yep, small improvements done steadily make your channel shine and stay fresh.
Great review and helpful as I've been on the fence about picking this up. Just got into gaming this year, totally digging Euro style games, mostly so looking at different styles of games to add to the collection.
@BoardGameDave Got Wingspan as a Valentine's gift, which I love, Betrayal in the House on the Hill, Cascadia, and recently got Earth and really liking it. Play mostly solo so games that are good for both multi player & solo are what I'm drawn to. Thx for asking!
@@corey3145 Awesome! I've played all of those games! ☺ I just tried Earth solo on BGG for the first time recently and had a good time with it! And Wingspan solo is fantastic-have you tried that yet?
Look at some other reviews friend. This is done by person who didn't have affinity for co-op and done it solo.... With big breaks... I would be utterly shocked if he liked it. He's done just about everything possible to set himself for failure with this game... To complex to navigate? Of course it is if you are playing all characters and keeping track of all the things each character has... And then y
After playing about half of the JotL campaign with a friend a couple years ago, I feel like Gloomhaven is the Derek Jeter of board games: Genuinely very good, but also overrated to a bewildering degree.
Oh man I really wanted to try this game but I had no idea it was cooperative. Which I’m not a fan of but it wouldn’t stop me from playing since it’s ranked so high. Euro :)
Yeah, this is a fully cooperative campaign game! It's definitely worth giving a try since this and Gloomhaven are SUCH acclaimed games in our hobby, though! ☺️
So true. Thank god gloomhaven digital edition came out on epic games store for free and I had the chance to try it before bying the physical copy of JOTL. Didn't like it unfortunately. So boring...Sorry..
So you found it boring even on the digital platform! That's interesting because a lot of people have been recommending that I play it on Steam. But I think I'm with you-it's still not my kind of game so I don't think I'd enjoy it even if it was digital/more streamlined!
@@BoardGameDave I think the digital version shines only if you're planning on playing it online in multiplayer mode (and of course if you want to save time in setting up the game). Other than that it's the same as the physical copy.
Very controversial, Dave 😅 I've played Jaws with my husband and used the narration app plus the monster app which helped with some of the fiddliness. Your points are extremely valid! I see where you are coming from. I'm not a big dungeon crawl game fan either, but I did enjoy it with my husband and the narration it came with. To be honest, if we didn't have both apps, I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much. I'm like you, I enjoy more euro type games (please do not add me in the giveaway since we own Jaws already - I just wanted to agree with you about liking similar games 😀) Thanks for the video! Now, off to go play GWT 😉
I didn't realize there was an app like that for JOTL-did you have to pay for that? Sounds like it would streamline the whole game a lot! Thank you for the comment and for appreciating my reservations about this game even though you and your husband enjoyed it! ☺️ Hope you had a great time playing Great Western Trail, a clearly far superior game! 😉
That's fantastic! I'm so glad you two can enjoy this game together! ☺️ I suspect I would enjoy this game more at two-player than solo but like I said, I think at that point I'd rather play something else instead!
I've never played Kanban, but I'm surprised to hear you say that JOTL has even more rules, since Kanban is pretty widely regarded as a very heavy euro game! 😳 Funny that we both played JOTL six times before calling it quits! 😅
@@BoardGameDave the cards give me ap the elements made things more difficult than they should. It just seemed way more than it needed to be. I’ll probably pick up 9 minute kingdom today. Played Babylonia last night.
I have never tried that series, but I heard a lot about it ! Enter me as well, thanks for the opportunity ! I love strategic games like Carcassonne with a bit of luck to make things exciting
The map book is far better than base GH but I bought GH for PC and find it to mostly be a slog. Yes it's interesting picking which cards to play and the card system is interesting, but if I want something that complex I'd rather just play dungeons and dragons
Yes, I've heard from a lot of Gloomhaven people that they prefer the map book but I still found the game to be a "slog" as well... it's too bad you felt that way even playing the game digitally! At least you've got D&D! ☺️
A lot of people have been recommending either just playing the game digitally or using an app that can help with some of the upkeep! ☺️ Hope you get a chance to play this one sometime!
EURO!!! The first time I tried Gloomhaven with friends, I really didn't like it because there were too many components and the setup was crazy. And I heard that they have a digital version, I tried it and I love it hahah. I haven't tried JOTL yet, but I'll give it a shot and it seems to have a much easier setup. Hoping to win this giveaway. You are one of my favorite boardgame youtubers.
Thank you so much for the comment! I have no idea how this one slipped through the cracks! Someday I'll have to give Gloomhaven/JOTL a try on a digital platform-I think I would definitely enjoy it more that way!
Thanks for the video Dave, love your honesty. There is a such thing as getting so annoyed at a game because the design is too random and doesn’t let you use your brain to win. On ya for trying it though!
Thank you for the comment, Emma! ☺️ Yeah, like I said in the video, it was/is extra frustrating when you finally get everything together for a powerful move and the game is just like... "nope"! 🤣 I am glad I tried it, though! I'd like to think I keep an open mind about all different types of games and I'm down to try pretty much anything! ☺️ Have you played Gloomhaven or Jaws of the Lion?
@@BoardGameDave I haven't played, no. The theme looks great but for some reason i've never gotten into RPG's. I think I could if there was a group who was super into it, but i'm more for the euro side of games!
BTW if you are looking for new games I can't recomend enough Carnegie, it's awesome, about la cerda I have only player kanban and it's very very good also
The BG Stats app, Point Salad and Tiny Towns and now Jaws of the Lion? 🤣 I've got to cut you off from winning giveaways at some point! ❌ Just kidding! And good luck! 🍀 I've played Carnegie before but only once! I'd probably like it more with a few more plays! And I think I might get myself a Lacerda (either Kanban EV or On Mars) this year! We'll see!
Euro! I am a huge fan of Euros so I'm wondering how much I would like this game. I like the idea of the story but I would definitely use the app to help with the book keeping because that doesn't seem very fun to me haha also you should definitely get underwater cities and the expansion! That game is amazing haha
I've heard so many good things about Underwater Cities! It's high up on my want-to-buy list at the moment! ☺️ And yeah, I'm all for storytelling in board games but that and euro games don't seem to go together very well, at least historically! It seems like that's starting to change, though!
I really hope to find a time to play a game with you some day, Dave. Totally aligned with your tastes in games. Dungeon crawlers and other so-called Ameritrash games just don't appeal to me. Euro games forever!
That sounds like a ton of fun, Thomas! I hope we can make it happen sometime, too! Especially since we seem to have such similar tastes! ☺️ Do you have any convention plans anytime in the near future?
@@BoardGameDave just Pax Unplugged. Didn't get a chance to say hi last year. Maybe next time. Wish there was some kind of meet-up here in Pa. before December.
Gloomhaven is literally 99% strategy and tactics. It’s probably one of the least random games I’ve ever played lol but yeah, just use the +2 -2 official modifier for the null - it’s there for gamers like us! One of the most chess-like games I’ve ever played, up there with Mage Knight and Spirit Island.
I get what you're saying but I'm not sure the game is 99% strategy and tactics. Chess-like implies that there is nearly no hidden information or randomness and I'd have to argue that there's certainly more than 1% randomness in this game. That being said, another commenter brought up the randomness factor and I will conceded that the game does let you see what the monsters are going to do so you get to plan around their actions... I suppose it was just the wild swings of the modifier decks that made it feel so random and punishing to me! As much time as I spend in the BGG forums I never heard about the +2/-2 official modifier which may have made me enjoy the game more... but even still this just isn't the kind of game I'd typically want to play over a meaty euro game! ☺️
Nice giveaway. I totally agree with all the points you made both good and bad although it seems you haven’t played that much of it either. I’ve not tried JotL but did the regular Gloomhaven. Played it first time, thought the deck building/ hand management was superb… but after a couple of scenarios and getting quite a number of basic rules wrong as the one who read the rules taught it wrong kinda pushed me to wanna replay from beginning. Similar to you, I’m quite against house-ruling personally although that’s just for me. Others can house rule all they want. That’s totally cool. We restarted… and again… got 80-90% of rules right but still a few rules wrong. Hated that. Especially in a campaign game and not a standalone one… was never going to restart…. Cause didn’t wanna play the same starting scenarios w 3rd time… neither wanted to continue from a wrong start… ruined the game for me. The fiddliness of rules as you stated and the repitition feeling I’m getting that this is a dungeon crawl and you’ll just be constantly fighting monsters…. Picking up items… I dunno. Never gave it a proper chance (3rd go) I can’t say it’s a bad game design. Clearly loads of people love the game. Just concluded that it wasn’t a game for me. With JotL, I was thinking like you, maybe can try, but similarly I’ve never been one to enjoy either cooperative games or campaign story-driven games. A dry euro like Praga Caput Regni works perfectly good for me. So your comments here really tells me, I don’t need to own this game surely. Haha
That's so funny that you brought up the restarting thing! I played Legacy of Yu for the first time last night and after two plays realized I was playing slightly incorrectly... so I reset the entire game so I can start over from scratch! 🤣 What can I say? I'm also a stickler for the rules! But yeah... the rules are so fiddly and unintuitive sometimes that you just have to spend a ton of time in the rulebook and for a game that I was already not super inclined to enjoy... that kind of killed it for me in the end! And like I said in the video, I also think it's a good design, just not for me! Give me Praga Caput Regni any day over a dungeon crawler! ☺️
Sorry you didn't like it Dave, but I get where you're coming from with your EURO focus, Randomness doesn't bother me too much. Thanks for giving it away to someone who will like it more.
Seems like this just should have been a video game. Tabletop games are a great medium for certain experiences, but not for everything. Things like line of sight, monster movement, and initiative are great fits for a machine to simulate. I think most solo modes stray too far into complex player-simulation algorithms, rather than just inventing a simpler system to run the opponent. Seems like this would make a great tactics video game. And this is supposed to be the "simpler" version of Gloomhaven, right? Doesn't exactly make me want to try the big one. Generally if I see minis, dice, and combat, I'm out.
Hey there, Dale! I thought someone had responded to this comment but there are really good digital implementations of Gloomhaven (and I think JOTL) out there from what I hear! I think you might be onto something as far as a game like this working well as a video game or as a hybrid sort of digital/tabletop game. When you're playing solo especially I feel like there's a lot of upkeep and easily overlooked details, even more so because you're playing two-handed. As for this being the "simpler" version of Gloomhaven, I was sort of under the same impression but I think by the fifth scenario you're pretty much playing full Gloomhaven so I don't think it's any less complex! "Generally if I see minis, dice, and combat, I'm out"... same here, Dale! 😅 Thank you for the comment! I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you!
EURO I’ve been thinking about purchasing this game to play solo since my wife isn’t always in the mood the play a game and…well my 2 year old daughter just isn’t old enough to game yet!
I assume you also do not like Gloommhaven then? In that case then what you say is all valid. If not, then I do not understand your reasoning. I agree though a 2x and 0 damage should not be in the modifier. It make the game too swingy
@@BoardGameDave got it, it makes a lot of sense, then as you say, this is just not a game for you. I also understand how a Euro gamer would be attracted to Gloomhaven since a lot of people say that Gloomhaven is a Euro Style dungeon crawler.
@@dav1dgear Thank you for understanding my point of view! ☺ I'm certainly not bashing the game at all and I can see why many people love the game, it's just not for me! (Just like a game like Brass: Birmingham isn't for everyone, either!) 🚂
I could see that being the case! I'm sure I'd have more fun playing it with other players (especially if they were more familiar with the game than I am) but I still find elements of the game to be not terribly fun for me! 😬 But I suppose I can't say how much I'd like/dislike it multiplayer without trying it!
Wow, this was your first solo/board game! I'm sorry it was such a bad first experience for you! 😰 Seems like it didn't turn you off from the entire hobby at least, so that's good! ☺️
I mean, I've played and enjoyed more complex games before but I do find that lately I don't always enjoy games toward the 4+/5 weight range so between that and how much annoying fidliness I felt like there was in JOTL, Gloomhaven probably isn't a game I'm eager to try... although with people that know the game well I think I'd enjoy myself! ☺️
yeah, im not sure making a review thumbnail for a game saying you "dont like this game" is going to get you alot of views. Your kinda reaching. Anything for fame isnt that right Dave? XD
I mean, I feel like this video is doing pretty well views-wise? And as far as making a negative review video, I don't see any reason why that wouldn't be just as valid as making a positive review video? 🤔 Just sharing my thoughts in the hopes they resonate with similar gamers!
So as a potential buyer I'm very confused as to why you reviewed this game. The title of your video is very click-baity and the first thing out of your mouth is essentially you don't like this genre. You're complaining about mechanics found in other dungeon crawlers and TTRPGS, so clearly these types of games aren't for you. So again I'm confused as to why you reviewed this if you already knew going into it this genre wasn't your thing. Sure, try it out if you want, but maybe leave it at that if you're struggling to grasp the mechanics of the genre. Bummer...this is the first video of yours I've seen and it's left me with a bad taste. You kind of just crapped on an entire genre because it's not your thing.
It’s tricky being a reviewer because if all your reviews are positive you’re accused of being a shill and if you post a negative review you get comments like this. 🤔 While I understand where you’re coming from, I think there’s absolutely space (and a need) for negative reviews. If a similarly euro-leaning gamer is considering buying JOTL this might deter them from committing to the purchase. Also, putting my biases first and foremost seemed like a good way to let the viewers know where I’m coming from before they get too far into the video. (For example, if you’re a huge dungeon crawler/RPG fan, you might not resonate with some of my critiques.) The title is certainly not clickbaity at all and if you’re referring to the thumbnail (“Why I Don’t Like This Game.”) you’re getting exactly what I’m putting out there. It’s hard to navigate gracefully through a negative review but I certainly stand by a review for a game I played six times with an earnest attempt at enjoying the game. But I genuinely appreciate your feedback and I’ll keep your response in mind in the future! Thank you for taking the time to comment! ☺️
@@BoardGameDave there is indeed room for negative reviews when they're well informed and have experience in the subject. Essentially you picked a genre you knew nothing about, and then trashed a game for mechanics you didn't understand. Mechanics that are found in most games similar to this. I will say, for some reason I thought the full title was "and why I'll never play it again" which that felt click baity. But I'm not sure why I saw that. Still though, you didn't give me anything constructive such as why this game is better or worse than others in the genre, or what mechanics could have been tweaked. You just said you didn't like it because you don't like game play that's featured in this genre...and that's really it. Also, you didn't truly give it a fair shake. You played it by yourself, which you can do, but you didn't even give multiplayer a chance because once again, you didn't like the core mechanics (which are found in this genre and the genres it came from). Your critiques are a bit hollow when you're coming from a shallow angle without any previous knowledge of these types of games.
I totally understand this game isn't for you. Some board game genres and mechanics are more attractive to some of us than others. Unfortunately, you give some really, really poor reason for not liking it. This game isn't really random and yes you can learn, prepare for and predict for the modifiers and creature abilities/actions. Random is dice, not decks, you as a reviewer should know the difference. When a dealer at a casino deals you a card, that card isn't random, it's provided to you from remaining available cards. You say you don't want to or can't remember all the rules?! But you are a board game reviewer, step up your game. This game truly doesn't have a poorly presented or confusing rule set. Yes, it is complicated and does take effort and time to learn. If this is really your passion, don't fault the game because you don't know and have not taken the time to learn the rules. You want two feet items? You absolutely cannot be serious. In what game from any genre or in real life do you equip two different feet items: one for each foot. I get what you are saying: you like predictable outcomes and you like to win 100% of the time. Perhaps advance and challenging games like this aren't for you. If you want a game that you can take back your moves, never fail and is super short and easy and learn, then perhaps you should start reviewing jig saw puzzles under 25 pieces. From listening to this review, I think what really happened is that you are trying (very hardly but not smartly) to have an alternative opinion from the rest of the board gaming community. You want to be unique and different. I think that's awesome, and you should share that opinion. But come up with some better reasons. The ones you gave are super weak, make you sound lazy or are flatly false. Instead of releasing a video with weak reasons on why you don't like a game (helps zero people), perhaps you should come up with a video with alternative game choices for people who played Jaws of the Lion and agreed they wanted a game that was easier to learn, shorter and provided less of a challenge.
I read this comment for the first time while I was with my family in Kyoto and I found it so bizarre, patronizing, and condescending that I didn't know how to respond... and then just kept putting it off. How do you start with "I totally understand this game isn't for you" and then go onto insult my intelligence and imply that I'm simply trying to be "unique and different" by not liking this game? I didn't like my experience with it. And for what it's worth I would argue that the rulebook is objectively arranged poorly. I could have offered some alternatives but I don't often play games like this so I'm not a good person to recommend similar games. What a strange and immature comment.
While having the spiral book makes for many different board scenes, there is small print text on it that one needs to refer to when certain events occur. With the large game spread on the table I couldn't find any angle to be able to read from without disturbing the setup on the pages. So it got got put away until I can find the time to copy the book so I can refer to the text. It's been a couple of years...
I didn't think about the small text size on the cards/board being an issue but I could definitely see how that could be a problem! I'm sorry you haven't been able to play the game in so long! 😰
I tend to agree with you on games like this, especially campaign games that are mostly battles and less story. And I have realized that I don’t enjoy campaign games where you cannot fail forward. I don’t want to have to repeat the same chapter over and over until I succeed. (This is also why I don’t enjoy most video games where you are spending most of your time leveling up and grinding to advance.)
In the 10-20 hours it takes to complete a game like JOTL, I could enjoy 10-15 different euro games, like Brass, Grand Austria Hotel, CoB, Rococo, Coimbra, GWT, etc.
For me to stick with a campaign game, it has to have a really good story, fail forward, and minimal fiddliness.
I love the points you made, Eric! I know I'm not the only that felt like JOTL was just grinding, failing, and repeating scenarios while trying to get enough XP to buy items that would help you pass the scenario. I can't imagine being super invested in the game with a game group and getting stuck on a scenario where we'd have to keep coming back to the SAME scenario week after week... I think inevitably we'd just cheat a little bit to move on! And yes-campaign games require a TON of commitment... especially (like you said) we could be playing a whole bunch of phenomenal euro games in the same amount of time! ☺️ Thanks so much for the comment!
Totally agree. I think the amount of time I spent in the rule book and with set up just really killed my desire to keep going. I can’t play every single night, so it seemed like it would be almost a whole night of set up and learning…wait a few days and play and then on that “play” I was still referring to the rule book.
The play itself wasn’t bad and the randomness wasn’t super deflating to me (yet).
I do think I would like this at 2p, but I know my wife would NEVER try this and I don’t foresee having enough time in the near future on a consistent basis to get through it with any of my friends.
I think the reality is that it’s going to sit on my shelf for a long time, unfinished, purely based on how bad I want to like it and hope to be able to have a situation where I will be able to enjoy it one day. It’s an odd form of FOMO on a game I already own.
Absolutely agree with you 100%. I had put the game away for a while and trying to relearn the game after a few months was literally like learning the game totally from scratch. We're talking back to Rodney Smith, re-reading the whole rulebook... there are just SO many little things you can miss otherwise and it's not intuitive enough that you can put the game away, come back to it, and still remember most of the rules! 😣 If Hannah was into this type of game and we could commit to playing it regularly (multiple times a week) that'd be different, but... even then I think I'd rather be playing something else with her! Sorry you're stuck with the game only partially played-how many scenarios in are you?
@@BoardGameDave I mean, I’m glad I got this at $30 or whatever I paid for it. I’ve put less time into games I’ve paid more for before, so not too bummed. Better than having bought regular Gloomhaven for $120. I think I played like 6 or 7.
@@oneysnyder2116 That's a good way of looking at it! I feel the same way: I bought it for $19, played it six times, and then gave it away to someone who really likes Gloomhaven! That's a win to me! ☺
YES BOARDGAMEDAVE, SPEAK YOUR MIND! LOVE YOUR EURO MIND
Haha, thank you so much, Brett!! 😁
wow you have the same taste as me ... thank you for this review because i have been waffling on if i should buy this game... now i know its not for me ... I do enjoy some randomness in my games but not all the fiddly rules and needing to replay scenarios doesnt sound like fun to me...by the way have you played the Maracaibo expansion yet?
If we have similar tastes in board games, I would suspect that this one would similarly fall flat for you! But maybe give it a try sometime if you get a chance? You never know until you try, right? ☺️ And believe it or not, I still haven't played with the expansion! I'll definitely do that this summer when I can leave it set up on the table and work through the expansion campaign! ⚓️
Likewise, this ain't my jam. But I got it for $15 brand new, in shrink. I figure if I ever change tastes it'll be there on the shelf (or in a storage closet) waiting for me. Also, maybe I can think up some house rules that make it more Euro like.
Ah well, I've learned in life to never say never. I don't want to paint myself into a corner, so I'll keep it. Maybe one day I'll enjoy this.
You sound just like me! Definitely not my jam but I got it for cheap and figured I may as well give it a try! 😅 Some house rules to make it more euro... that's very interesting! 🤔 And that's how I try to be, too! Gotta stay open-minded, right? ☺️
I played through maybe 10 scenarios with my partner. We were having less fun and doing more upkeep so we stopped - still worth the price of admission but I'm on your side overall. Scenarios can take a long time and restarting one due to failure is devastating.
I will say, in the game's defense, that in spirit it's an elaborate D&D Combat simulator. Approaching the game with the spirit of D&D seems like the best way to enjoy it. In reading a lot of rules forums discussion, house rules are common. You can tweak the game in ways to make it more fun for you and your group. Don't like the MISS combat modifiers? Just take 'em out. I vastly prefer the card deck implementation of modifiers over dice - you can't remove bad dice-rolls from play. The game does do a lot of interesting things well, but I cant imagine playing it over a good PC tactics rpg.
Hey there, Jon! Thank you for your comment! ☺️ Playing ten scenarios definitely sounds like you got plenty of bang for your buck! And yeah, the whole restarting the scenario if you lose thing can be kind of demoralizing!
I get what you're saying about it being kind of like a "D&D Combat Simulator". Perhaps I would have enjoyed the game more if I would have approached it with that mindset but I'm also not a big RPG guy and I'm finding more and more than I'm much more a strict, play-by-the-rules, euro gamer than an improv, adventure, rpg-type gamer. And I'm definitely not a house-ruler! 😬 At the end of the day, a PC tactics rpg does sound more satisfying to me than this sort of game!
JoTL is the first "hobby" board game I played, so I didn't even know that Euro or Ameritrash even existed.
I played solo and, initially, I did need to consult the manuals... a lot. But then I did things like write a bullet point player aid (wasn't aware that one existed), and while it made the game procedural to begin with, after a scenario I wasn't having to consult it. I also kept the conditions on the base of the minis so I'd remember them and any elements both next to them and on the element board, so I'd remember to use/cycle them.
All that said, yep, there should be more mitigation and some more straightforward moves which don't require a card draw.
I loved the game, but I'm also a huge fantasy nut, so that helped with immersion, but I can see why a Euro player wouldn't love it... now that I know what Euro means.
Thank you so much for your comment! I especially appreciate that we can very different opinions on the game and still respect each other's perspectives! ☺️ That's wild that JOTL was your first hobby board game-it's certainly not what I would consider a "gateway" game for someone new to the hobby! But it does have its immersive and rewarding moments so I can see how you could be invested and motivated to power through the more fiddly aspects for that fun gameplay reward! For me, it's just not the kind of game I'm typically drawn too, even though I can definitely see and appreciate the merits of the game! ☺️ Thank you again for your thoughts on this game!
As a long term Gloomhaven player and jotl lover I definitely wouldn’t recommend solo play. Rather then working with your friends to coordinate your damage and protecting each other playing solo really just feels like a combat simulator with random multipliers and it’s not particularly fun
Thank you for the comment as someone who enjoys Gloomhaven and JOTL! I suspect I would enjoy this game more at two-player than solo for the reasons you mentioned but like I said, I think at that point I'd rather play something else instead! ☺️
hey! recently discovered your channel and have been binge watching all your videos, and loving them!!
Hey there! That is so kind of you! ☺️ And I really appreciate the comment! What are some of your favorite games?
@@BoardGameDave thank you for asking! my favorite games are Pax Pamir 2e, Dune: Imperium, Brass: Birmingham, Pipeline, The Great Zimbabwe and Imperial Struggle!
Even though my tastes align with you in terms of favouring euros over other types, I fairly enjoyed Gloomhaven proper and a ton of points you said are very valid, especially how fiddly status effects are. After a few sessions I stopped bothering with status effects and conditions because, like you, i had to constantly look up what they did and completely ruined the flow of the gameplay, which is more crucial to me than getting the rules right. However, I disagree with your opinion on the randomness of the game. Yes, the game has a ton of randomness, but vast majority of the games contain some elements of randomness, especially if you play solo against an AI. You usually get a deck of cards and you just don't know what action will come up next, which is exactly what Gloomhaven's enemy behaviours are like. The mitigation comes from upgrading your deck, removing bad cards from it and so on, which means as you play more, you can pretty much predict your own outcome for actions. So yeah, I don't have a ton of beef with randomness here, but I probably won't go back to Gloomhaven series (unless somehow Frosthaven lands on my lap suddenly and breaks my thighs) for many of the reasons you eloquantly stated!
Thank you so much for such a thoughtful comment! It's funny because we're very different in regards to "the flow of the gameplay, which is more crucial to me than getting the rules right". I vastly overvalue playing the game correctly over the flow of the gameplay (and over even my own enjoyment of the game) which is probably why I never use house rules... even if they would potentially make the game more fun! 🤣 And you bring up good points about the randomness for sure. The game does let you see what the monsters are going to do so you get to plan around their actions... I suppose it was just the wild swings of the modifier decks that made it feel so random and punishing to me! Thanks again for the comment and for checking out the video!
Thank you for your opinion Dave! I do like JOTL but could agree with your points🤔Especially the randomness made some punishing time for me and my partner😂Surely, I can accept it as a part of the game. It's clearly thematic as you said. Anyway, this is a very helpful review of the game!
Thank you for checking out this video even though you're a fan of the game! I totally agree that the randomness, while punishing, is thematic at least! 😂
I love the Gloomhaven digital version, but I don’t think I’d ever play the physical big box just due to the massive set up and overhead of it. JotL seems much more up my alley. Euro. Thanks for the chance!
If you enjoy Gloomhaven already (besides the massive setup and overhead) I think you'd enjoy JOTL a lot! ☺️
Good job trying to expand out of your Euro base, even if this one did end up being a miss. Discovery is half of the fun
Thank you, Nathan-I appreciate that! I do try to step outside my comfort zone from time to time! ☺️
you outline your points really well! i will say though, with a game as popular as this, rather than flicking through the rules you can usually just google the question you have and there will be a bgg thread with exactly that question answered. (did this for a few fiddly rules in root, your mileage may vary) obligatory euro insert
Thank you so much for the comment! And you're right-looking up rules clarifications on BGG is a good way to go but I was starting to get frustrated that I couldn't find answers to my questions more quickly in the learn-to-play guide and/or the glossary! And you probably know as well as I do that the BGG rules forums can turn into page after page of disagreements and misinterpretations! 🤣 Good luck with the giveaway! 🍀
@@BoardGameDave that is fair, and when you buy something like this you would be right to expect some tight rule writing. with root for instance, it’s less a problem of interpretation and more a problem of organisation, so most of the time a comment would cite a specific section of the rulebook as to why they believe what they do, so the googling thing would kind of just be used as a more intelligent CTRL + F haha
Our tastes really align. I already knew this was a game I would never play, but your review cements my position on giving this one a pass.
Hey there, Antonio! Thanks for checking out the video even though you already knew this wasn't a game for you! ☺️ Sidenote: any chance you'll be at Origins this summer?
@BoardGameDave So sorry I won't be. I try to make Cons that have competitive events mostly for my channel. This year I'll be at the WSBG qulifier in Parker, SD, The World Series of Board Gaming and hoping to make it to the World Board Gaming championship in PA.
Love your take on this, Dave! Cheers!!
The Foot bit killed me!!
Thank you so much for checking it out, Taylor! ☺️ Hey, will you be at Origins this summer by any chance? ☀️
I would love to play this! I enjoyed the big box a few times but no way would I ever get that. Thank you for the opportunity! Euro ;)
I feel like JOTL gives you like 90% of what Gloomhaven offers in such a small and self-contained package! ☺️ Hope you get a chance to give it a try sometime!
I just stumbled upon this video this very moment because I was looking for negative reviews on this game. I'm thinking in buying it and wanted to know some cons.
Very well done video, thanks for the review.
Hey there! Thanks for stumbling onto this video-I'm not sure how many negative reviews there are for Jaws of the Lion, but I know negative reviews in general are hard to find sometimes! This is a worldwide giveaway so you're good there, and maybe if you win you can just subscribe to the channel real quick in exchange! 🤣 Thank you for the comment!
@@BoardGameDave Just did that!
Thanks for covering JoTL. This one is currently punched and waiting to be tabled at our house. My son is a big DnD fan and is really looking forward to this one. It sounded to me like your issues with the game, at least in my experience, are really just general trends in Dungeon Crawler Campaign games. I had similar issues with Sleeping Gods but I did enjoy it over all. I am interested to see if we run into the same issues with a 2 player set up rather than solo. Oh also, euro.
That's so great that you've already got a copy of JOTL and you're looking forward to playing it! ☺️ From some of the comments I've read so far it sounds like if you approach this game as something closer to a D&D/RPG experience than strictly just a board game you'll enjoy it more? I have a feeling you'll really enjoy this game if you guys are already into and experienced with D&D and dungeon crawler games!
I have played regular Gloomhaven but haven’t been able to give this a try yet. JOL is one that is on my list to pick up. Thank you for this video, there are games that I love that don’t crack many people’s top list. Euro
I'm sure you'd really enjoy JOTL then! Good luck to you! ☺️
Derek! You won the giveaway! 🥳 My email address is in the description-do you want to email me and we'll figure out next steps? Thanks!
@@BoardGameDave that’s awesome, I saw that video. Yes, I will email you. Thank you so much?
@@derekwilson9829 Sounds great, Derek! ☺
Does this mean we won't be playing Zombicide together anytime soon? 😂 Not every game is for everyone and I appreciate your honesty. I guess I'll toss my name in the ring and say EURO. (Speaking of Euros, have you played Tiletum?)
Haha, I don't know too much about Zombicide but my guess is that's probably not my kind of game! 😉 And no, I haven't played Tiletum, but Luciani and Tascini are two of my favorite designers! Have you?
@@BoardGameDave I learned the solo version first and played that twice. Then I taught it to a couple of friends. Love the game!
Dude, thanks for the giveaway. While I am not a Euro, I'm up in Canada and still considered an international. 😊
No problem, Matt! Happy to pass the game on to someone who will enjoy it more! ☺️ Good luck to you! 🇨🇦
thank you for your honest opinion! it's important to be aware of what you like in a game and we need videos like this to help everyone get to know games better.
EURO! :)
Thank you for your comment! I try to give a balanced and fair assessment of a game, even if I don't like it personally! Like I said, I certainly don't think it's a bad game and can understand why so many people like it! ☺️ I appreciate you checking out the video!
@@BoardGameDave I think you've nailed it in this video, you were absolutely fair. Can't wait for the next one! :)
EURO!!! This game has more positives than negatives IMO.........+Dungeon Crawler...+Randomness=Replayability...the more you play the easier it gets AND the more FUN it is. A gateway to Gloomhaven...
That's so funny because some of those positives are negatives to me (dungeon crawler and randomness) but that's why this hobby is so great! There are games out there for anyone/everyone! ☺️
Great shots man. I enjoyed the angles and lighting. And of course . . . that shirt!!!! You already know I'm with you on your opinions of this. Also only played solo and coop I'd rather try the electronic game. But for me, I'll grab LoTR if I want a dungeon crawl.
Thank you for checking out this video, Mike! I'd like to think the quality of my videos is getting better; I just keep trying to improve small things here and there! ☺️ I love my Board Games for One shirt, man! You know I'll be representing at Origins! 😁 Are you talking about LOTR: Journeys in Middle Earth? That's such a great game! Hannah and I made it through the whole campaign together!
@@BoardGameDave Yessir LOTR. I also had no issue getting through the whole campaign. Still waiting on my badge info for Origins. I'll reach out tomorrow if I don't have it. Yep, small improvements done steadily make your channel shine and stay fresh.
Great review and helpful as I've been on the fence about picking this up. Just got into gaming this year, totally digging Euro style games, mostly so looking at different styles of games to add to the collection.
Welcome to the hobby, Corey! What have been some of your favorite games so far? ☺️
@BoardGameDave Got Wingspan as a Valentine's gift, which I love, Betrayal in the House on the Hill, Cascadia, and recently got Earth and really liking it. Play mostly solo so games that are good for both multi player & solo are what I'm drawn to. Thx for asking!
@@corey3145 Awesome! I've played all of those games! ☺ I just tried Earth solo on BGG for the first time recently and had a good time with it! And Wingspan solo is fantastic-have you tried that yet?
Look at some other reviews friend. This is done by person who didn't have affinity for co-op and done it solo.... With big breaks... I would be utterly shocked if he liked it. He's done just about everything possible to set himself for failure with this game... To complex to navigate? Of course it is if you are playing all characters and keeping track of all the things each character has... And then y
After playing about half of the JotL campaign with a friend a couple years ago, I feel like Gloomhaven is the Derek Jeter of board games: Genuinely very good, but also overrated to a bewildering degree.
Haha, I love your take on it! ⚾️ It certainly seems to be hyped to a ridiculous degree!
Oh man I really wanted to try this game but I had no idea it was cooperative. Which I’m not a fan of but it wouldn’t stop me from playing since it’s ranked so high. Euro :)
Yeah, this is a fully cooperative campaign game! It's definitely worth giving a try since this and Gloomhaven are SUCH acclaimed games in our hobby, though! ☺️
So true. Thank god gloomhaven digital edition came out on epic games store for free and I had the chance to try it before bying the physical copy of JOTL. Didn't like it unfortunately. So boring...Sorry..
So you found it boring even on the digital platform! That's interesting because a lot of people have been recommending that I play it on Steam. But I think I'm with you-it's still not my kind of game so I don't think I'd enjoy it even if it was digital/more streamlined!
@@BoardGameDave I think the digital version shines only if you're planning on playing it online in multiplayer mode (and of course if you want to save time in setting up the game). Other than that it's the same as the physical copy.
@@triantafylloss.3982 Yeah, that totally makes sense!
Very controversial, Dave 😅 I've played Jaws with my husband and used the narration app plus the monster app which helped with some of the fiddliness. Your points are extremely valid! I see where you are coming from. I'm not a big dungeon crawl game fan either, but I did enjoy it with my husband and the narration it came with. To be honest, if we didn't have both apps, I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much. I'm like you, I enjoy more euro type games (please do not add me in the giveaway since we own Jaws already - I just wanted to agree with you about liking similar games 😀) Thanks for the video! Now, off to go play GWT 😉
I didn't realize there was an app like that for JOTL-did you have to pay for that? Sounds like it would streamline the whole game a lot! Thank you for the comment and for appreciating my reservations about this game even though you and your husband enjoyed it! ☺️ Hope you had a great time playing Great Western Trail, a clearly far superior game! 😉
Euro!
I really appreciate your transparency and would love to try the game out for myself as well.
Thank you so much for your comment! And good luck! 🍀
Much prefer this over base game.
Euro
If I had to choose between the two I'm sure I would prefer JOTL, too! Good luck! 🍀
Hey Dave, loved seeing you in the Quackalope videos 👍👍👍 Also, Euro!
Thank you so much for checking out the channel! ☺️ And good luck! 🍀
Using the app to control the Monster attacks makes it much easier to control!
That's what everyone keeps saying! I didn't know about the app but I wish I had for my plays of this game! 😣
@@BoardGameDave Should try it once with the app ;)
This is me and my wife’s number #1 game of all time (the series including Frosthaven) 😅❤
That's fantastic! I'm so glad you two can enjoy this game together! ☺️ I suspect I would enjoy this game more at two-player than solo but like I said, I think at that point I'd rather play something else instead!
Must say I agree with most of the things you say, well spoken Euro
Thank you so much! ☺️
I agree to many rules. More rules than kanban . Wanted to like it. After6 plays I was done too
I've never played Kanban, but I'm surprised to hear you say that JOTL has even more rules, since Kanban is pretty widely regarded as a very heavy euro game! 😳 Funny that we both played JOTL six times before calling it quits! 😅
@@BoardGameDave the cards give me ap the elements made things more difficult than they should. It just seemed way more than it needed to be. I’ll probably pick up 9 minute kingdom today. Played Babylonia last night.
I have never tried that series, but I heard a lot about it ! Enter me as well, thanks for the opportunity ! I love strategic games like Carcassonne with a bit of luck to make things exciting
If you like Carcassonne, you might really enjoy Isle of Skye! ☺️ I mentioned that one in my "Favorite Games to Play Outside" video! ☀️
The map book is far better than base GH but I bought GH for PC and find it to mostly be a slog. Yes it's interesting picking which cards to play and the card system is interesting, but if I want something that complex I'd rather just play dungeons and dragons
Yes, I've heard from a lot of Gloomhaven people that they prefer the map book but I still found the game to be a "slog" as well... it's too bad you felt that way even playing the game digitally! At least you've got D&D! ☺️
EURO :) Appreciate the international giveaway! It's a shame you didn't like it as much, but we value your honest review. Keep it up!
Thank you so much for the comment! ☺️
Apart from upkeep, I think I would love it. I've played a lot of euro games but not as many campaign games I would like.
A lot of people have been recommending either just playing the game digitally or using an app that can help with some of the upkeep! ☺️ Hope you get a chance to play this one sometime!
EURO!!! The first time I tried Gloomhaven with friends, I really didn't like it because there were too many components and the setup was crazy. And I heard that they have a digital version, I tried it and I love it hahah. I haven't tried JOTL yet, but I'll give it a shot and it seems to have a much easier setup. Hoping to win this giveaway. You are one of my favorite boardgame youtubers.
Thank you so much for the comment! I have no idea how this one slipped through the cracks! Someday I'll have to give Gloomhaven/JOTL a try on a digital platform-I think I would definitely enjoy it more that way!
Thanks for the video Dave, love your honesty. There is a such thing as getting so annoyed at a game because the design is too random and doesn’t let you use your brain to win. On ya for trying it though!
Thank you for the comment, Emma! ☺️ Yeah, like I said in the video, it was/is extra frustrating when you finally get everything together for a powerful move and the game is just like... "nope"! 🤣 I am glad I tried it, though! I'd like to think I keep an open mind about all different types of games and I'm down to try pretty much anything! ☺️ Have you played Gloomhaven or Jaws of the Lion?
@@BoardGameDave I haven't played, no. The theme looks great but for some reason i've never gotten into RPG's. I think I could if there was a group who was super into it, but i'm more for the euro side of games!
I like all types, euro included, but have never tried a Haven yet!
You've got to give it a try sometime! Good luck! ☺️
Big fan of euro games also
... not sure whether or not this would be a hit for my group
It's worth a try if your friends want to give it a shot, I suppose! Good luck! 🍀
As a euro gamer, I usually prefer strategic euro games but I've loved these kind of campaign games as well. I will take it if I get to win it ;)
I hope you get a chance to play Gloomhaven/JOTL sometime! ☺️
I've been playing the digital edition now on PS5. It sure is a hard game. But it's fun. It's very, very tactical.
I can totally see the game being enjoyable digitally-I'll have to give that a try sometime! 🎮 Thanks for the comment!
Will happily take the game off you haha 😂 Another ‘euro’ to add to my collection
Haha, exactly! 🤣 Good luck! 🍀
That looks like a cool game, I would love to try it ! Count me in for the giveaway ! Euro ! Cheers
Thanks for the comment! And good luck! 🍀
Hi Dave, EURO! Third time is the charn and you said international shipping I cannot miss this one haha. Good luck everyone, you'll need it! JK
BTW if you are looking for new games I can't recomend enough Carnegie, it's awesome, about la cerda I have only player kanban and it's very very good also
The BG Stats app, Point Salad and Tiny Towns and now Jaws of the Lion? 🤣 I've got to cut you off from winning giveaways at some point! ❌ Just kidding! And good luck! 🍀 I've played Carnegie before but only once! I'd probably like it more with a few more plays! And I think I might get myself a Lacerda (either Kanban EV or On Mars) this year! We'll see!
Euro! I am a huge fan of Euros so I'm wondering how much I would like this game. I like the idea of the story but I would definitely use the app to help with the book keeping because that doesn't seem very fun to me haha also you should definitely get underwater cities and the expansion! That game is amazing haha
I've heard so many good things about Underwater Cities! It's high up on my want-to-buy list at the moment! ☺️ And yeah, I'm all for storytelling in board games but that and euro games don't seem to go together very well, at least historically! It seems like that's starting to change, though!
I really hope to find a time to play a game with you some day, Dave. Totally aligned with your tastes in games. Dungeon crawlers and other so-called Ameritrash games just don't appeal to me. Euro games forever!
That sounds like a ton of fun, Thomas! I hope we can make it happen sometime, too! Especially since we seem to have such similar tastes! ☺️ Do you have any convention plans anytime in the near future?
@@BoardGameDave just Pax Unplugged. Didn't get a chance to say hi last year. Maybe next time. Wish there was some kind of meet-up here in Pa. before December.
Played base Gloomhaven and loved it, so would love to try this one !:) Euro gamer here aswell haha
That's so great to hear! ☺️ Glad you enjoy those types of games and euros as well! Good luck! 🍀
Gloomhaven is literally 99% strategy and tactics. It’s probably one of the least random games I’ve ever played lol but yeah, just use the +2 -2 official modifier for the null - it’s there for gamers like us! One of the most chess-like games I’ve ever played, up there with Mage Knight and Spirit Island.
I get what you're saying but I'm not sure the game is 99% strategy and tactics. Chess-like implies that there is nearly no hidden information or randomness and I'd have to argue that there's certainly more than 1% randomness in this game. That being said, another commenter brought up the randomness factor and I will conceded that the game does let you see what the monsters are going to do so you get to plan around their actions... I suppose it was just the wild swings of the modifier decks that made it feel so random and punishing to me! As much time as I spend in the BGG forums I never heard about the +2/-2 official modifier which may have made me enjoy the game more... but even still this just isn't the kind of game I'd typically want to play over a meaty euro game! ☺️
@@BoardGameDave Thanks for the extensive reply! Really weird the variant wasn’t showing up on the forms. Maybe it is just a “full” Gloomhaven thing?
Nice giveaway. I totally agree with all the points you made both good and bad although it seems you haven’t played that much of it either. I’ve not tried JotL but did the regular Gloomhaven.
Played it first time, thought the deck building/ hand management was superb… but after a couple of scenarios and getting quite a number of basic rules wrong as the one who read the rules taught it wrong kinda pushed me to wanna replay from beginning. Similar to you, I’m quite against house-ruling personally although that’s just for me. Others can house rule all they want. That’s totally cool.
We restarted… and again… got 80-90% of rules right but still a few rules wrong. Hated that. Especially in a campaign game and not a standalone one… was never going to restart…. Cause didn’t wanna play the same starting scenarios w 3rd time… neither wanted to continue from a wrong start… ruined the game for me. The fiddliness of rules as you stated and the repitition feeling I’m getting that this is a dungeon crawl and you’ll just be constantly fighting monsters…. Picking up items… I dunno. Never gave it a proper chance (3rd go)
I can’t say it’s a bad game design. Clearly loads of people love the game. Just concluded that it wasn’t a game for me. With JotL, I was thinking like you, maybe can try, but similarly I’ve never been one to enjoy either cooperative games or campaign story-driven games. A dry euro like Praga Caput Regni works perfectly good for me. So your comments here really tells me, I don’t need to own this game surely. Haha
That's so funny that you brought up the restarting thing! I played Legacy of Yu for the first time last night and after two plays realized I was playing slightly incorrectly... so I reset the entire game so I can start over from scratch! 🤣 What can I say? I'm also a stickler for the rules! But yeah... the rules are so fiddly and unintuitive sometimes that you just have to spend a ton of time in the rulebook and for a game that I was already not super inclined to enjoy... that kind of killed it for me in the end! And like I said in the video, I also think it's a good design, just not for me! Give me Praga Caput Regni any day over a dungeon crawler! ☺️
EURO. I'll give it a try. Thanks for the review.
Thank you for checking it out! ☺️
Love the way you explain board games and really enjoy your sincere opinion. I would love to give this EURO a try ✋🙂
Thank you so much for the kind words! ☺️
Pretty great opportunity I would love to try to play this game euro
Awesome, Darren! I'm glad I didn't deter you from giving this game a try! 😅 Good luck!
Sorry you didn't like it Dave, but I get where you're coming from with your EURO focus, Randomness doesn't bother me too much. Thanks for giving it away to someone who will like it more.
Thank you for the comment, Dan! And yeah, I'm happy to pass the game along to someone who will get more enjoyment out of it! ☺️
Very cool, thank you for doing this!
Of course! Thanks for checking out the video!
Count me in for this one Euro
Good luck! 🍀
Euro ! I have had a chance to play this little bit and I actually enjoyed it. I would love to win a copy.
That's great to hear! I'm glad there are board games for all sorts of gamers! Good luck! ☺️
My first try of Gloomhaven wasnt a hit, but maybe thismight incentivise me to try again hahaha. Euro here
Doesn't hurt to try again! 🤣 Good luck! 🍀
I would love to give this a try and see how much randomness this can be. Euro
It's a lot of randomness but it can be a lot of fun as well! ☺️
Would love to play this randomness filled Euro with my wife ^__^ (We both played Gloomhaven and like it a lot)
I'm so glad you enjoy these kinds of games! ☺️
Wow, this video made me super excited to win this Euro game. lol
Haha, yeah? Hope you win, then! 🤣 Good luck to you!
Euro! Thank you for what you're doing.
Thanks for checking out the video and for entering the giveaway! Good luck! 🍀
Seems like this just should have been a video game. Tabletop games are a great medium for certain experiences, but not for everything. Things like line of sight, monster movement, and initiative are great fits for a machine to simulate. I think most solo modes stray too far into complex player-simulation algorithms, rather than just inventing a simpler system to run the opponent.
Seems like this would make a great tactics video game. And this is supposed to be the "simpler" version of Gloomhaven, right? Doesn't exactly make me want to try the big one. Generally if I see minis, dice, and combat, I'm out.
Hey there, Dale! I thought someone had responded to this comment but there are really good digital implementations of Gloomhaven (and I think JOTL) out there from what I hear! I think you might be onto something as far as a game like this working well as a video game or as a hybrid sort of digital/tabletop game. When you're playing solo especially I feel like there's a lot of upkeep and easily overlooked details, even more so because you're playing two-handed. As for this being the "simpler" version of Gloomhaven, I was sort of under the same impression but I think by the fifth scenario you're pretty much playing full Gloomhaven so I don't think it's any less complex! "Generally if I see minis, dice, and combat, I'm out"... same here, Dale! 😅 Thank you for the comment! I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you!
EURO
I’ve been thinking about purchasing this game to play solo since my wife isn’t always in the mood the play a game and…well my 2 year old daughter just isn’t old enough to game yet!
I’m not sure if solo is the best way to play JOTL but if it seems like the kind of game you’d enjoy, I say go for it! ☺️
Hope I made it hehe
Love an honest review :)
Euro
Just in time! Good luck! 🍀
Euro crazy bro 😂😂
Haha! It's true! 🤣
I assume you also do not like Gloommhaven then? In that case then what you say is all valid. If not, then I do not understand your reasoning. I agree though a 2x and 0 damage should not be in the modifier. It make the game too swingy
I've never played Gloomhaven but I would assume most/all of my critiques would apply to Gloomhaven as well! 🤔
@@BoardGameDave got it, it makes a lot of sense, then as you say, this is just not a game for you. I also understand how a Euro gamer would be attracted to Gloomhaven since a lot of people say that Gloomhaven is a Euro Style dungeon crawler.
@@dav1dgear Thank you for understanding my point of view! ☺ I'm certainly not bashing the game at all and I can see why many people love the game, it's just not for me! (Just like a game like Brass: Birmingham isn't for everyone, either!) 🚂
This isn't my favorite game, but many of the issues you expressed are mitigated by playing it co-op with other players.
I could see that being the case! I'm sure I'd have more fun playing it with other players (especially if they were more familiar with the game than I am) but I still find elements of the game to be not terribly fun for me! 😬 But I suppose I can't say how much I'd like/dislike it multiplayer without trying it!
Euro . Nice honest review.
Thank you for the comment! ☺️
Well, it’s a good thing I like this game ha😂 Euro
That is a good thing! ☺️ Good luck! 🍀
Euro crazy man
Haha, thank you! 🤣
Europe is a nice country :D
The whole continent is really nice! 🌍
EURO ........ Shame you didn't like it but at least you gave it the ol' college try
Absolutely! I enjoyed some elements of it for sure and I'm glad I gave it a try! ☺️
Why does everyone have ' Euro ' in their comment, very strange.. very strange indeed ;)
That is kind of weird, especially since this is pretty much the opposite of a Euro game... 🤔
Gloomhaven the best Euro game xD
My thoughts exactly!! 🤣
Euro? I prefer Ameritrash xD
Nothing wrong with that! 😉
i hated the game. first solo/board game and i hated the experience
Wow, this was your first solo/board game! I'm sorry it was such a bad first experience for you! 😰 Seems like it didn't turn you off from the entire hobby at least, so that's good! ☺️
@@BoardGameDave naw i got kanban EV after and played that and i loved it.
Euro crazy for disliking this game 😢
Haha, I'm sorry to disappoint! 😢
Euro!
🥳🥳🥳
Euro
count me in euro
Good luck to you! 🍀
Geeze, hopefully don't play Daddy Gloomhaven if this is too complicated for you.
I mean, I've played and enjoyed more complex games before but I do find that lately I don't always enjoy games toward the 4+/5 weight range so between that and how much annoying fidliness I felt like there was in JOTL, Gloomhaven probably isn't a game I'm eager to try... although with people that know the game well I think I'd enjoy myself! ☺️
EURO
EEUURROO
EEEUUURRROOO
EEEEUUUURRRROOOO
LET'S GOOO! GOOD LUCK! 🍀
EURO
Good luck! 🍀
yeah, im not sure making a review thumbnail for a game saying you "dont like this game" is going to get you alot of views. Your kinda reaching. Anything for fame isnt that right Dave? XD
I mean, I feel like this video is doing pretty well views-wise? And as far as making a negative review video, I don't see any reason why that wouldn't be just as valid as making a positive review video? 🤔 Just sharing my thoughts in the hopes they resonate with similar gamers!
So as a potential buyer I'm very confused as to why you reviewed this game.
The title of your video is very click-baity and the first thing out of your mouth is essentially you don't like this genre. You're complaining about mechanics found in other dungeon crawlers and TTRPGS, so clearly these types of games aren't for you. So again I'm confused as to why you reviewed this if you already knew going into it this genre wasn't your thing. Sure, try it out if you want, but maybe leave it at that if you're struggling to grasp the mechanics of the genre.
Bummer...this is the first video of yours I've seen and it's left me with a bad taste. You kind of just crapped on an entire genre because it's not your thing.
It’s tricky being a reviewer because if all your reviews are positive you’re accused of being a shill and if you post a negative review you get comments like this. 🤔 While I understand where you’re coming from, I think there’s absolutely space (and a need) for negative reviews. If a similarly euro-leaning gamer is considering buying JOTL this might deter them from committing to the purchase. Also, putting my biases first and foremost seemed like a good way to let the viewers know where I’m coming from before they get too far into the video. (For example, if you’re a huge dungeon crawler/RPG fan, you might not resonate with some of my critiques.) The title is certainly not clickbaity at all and if you’re referring to the thumbnail (“Why I Don’t Like This Game.”) you’re getting exactly what I’m putting out there. It’s hard to navigate gracefully through a negative review but I certainly stand by a review for a game I played six times with an earnest attempt at enjoying the game. But I genuinely appreciate your feedback and I’ll keep your response in mind in the future! Thank you for taking the time to comment! ☺️
@@BoardGameDave there is indeed room for negative reviews when they're well informed and have experience in the subject. Essentially you picked a genre you knew nothing about, and then trashed a game for mechanics you didn't understand. Mechanics that are found in most games similar to this. I will say, for some reason I thought the full title was "and why I'll never play it again" which that felt click baity. But I'm not sure why I saw that.
Still though, you didn't give me anything constructive such as why this game is better or worse than others in the genre, or what mechanics could have been tweaked. You just said you didn't like it because you don't like game play that's featured in this genre...and that's really it. Also, you didn't truly give it a fair shake. You played it by yourself, which you can do, but you didn't even give multiplayer a chance because once again, you didn't like the core mechanics (which are found in this genre and the genres it came from). Your critiques are a bit hollow when you're coming from a shallow angle without any previous knowledge of these types of games.
I totally understand this game isn't for you. Some board game genres and mechanics are more attractive to some of us than others. Unfortunately, you give some really, really poor reason for not liking it. This game isn't really random and yes you can learn, prepare for and predict for the modifiers and creature abilities/actions. Random is dice, not decks, you as a reviewer should know the difference. When a dealer at a casino deals you a card, that card isn't random, it's provided to you from remaining available cards. You say you don't want to or can't remember all the rules?! But you are a board game reviewer, step up your game. This game truly doesn't have a poorly presented or confusing rule set. Yes, it is complicated and does take effort and time to learn. If this is really your passion, don't fault the game because you don't know and have not taken the time to learn the rules. You want two feet items? You absolutely cannot be serious. In what game from any genre or in real life do you equip two different feet items: one for each foot. I get what you are saying: you like predictable outcomes and you like to win 100% of the time. Perhaps advance and challenging games like this aren't for you. If you want a game that you can take back your moves, never fail and is super short and easy and learn, then perhaps you should start reviewing jig saw puzzles under 25 pieces. From listening to this review, I think what really happened is that you are trying (very hardly but not smartly) to have an alternative opinion from the rest of the board gaming community. You want to be unique and different. I think that's awesome, and you should share that opinion. But come up with some better reasons. The ones you gave are super weak, make you sound lazy or are flatly false. Instead of releasing a video with weak reasons on why you don't like a game (helps zero people), perhaps you should come up with a video with alternative game choices for people who played Jaws of the Lion and agreed they wanted a game that was easier to learn, shorter and provided less of a challenge.
I read this comment for the first time while I was with my family in Kyoto and I found it so bizarre, patronizing, and condescending that I didn't know how to respond... and then just kept putting it off. How do you start with "I totally understand this game isn't for you" and then go onto insult my intelligence and imply that I'm simply trying to be "unique and different" by not liking this game? I didn't like my experience with it. And for what it's worth I would argue that the rulebook is objectively arranged poorly. I could have offered some alternatives but I don't often play games like this so I'm not a good person to recommend similar games. What a strange and immature comment.