What are SEMI FORGED PISTONS?
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- Опубліковано 19 вер 2020
- www.mrpltd.co.nz/
www.mrpltd.co.nz/product/4agz...
What is up engine heads! Today we're talking about semi-forged piston and we will try to clear away some of the miscronceptions surrounding semi-forged pistons, and even other semi-forged stuff like semi-forged wheels.
To understand what semi forged pistons are we first have to understand how they're made. So how are they made? Well...they aren't. There's no such thing as semi-forged pistons. It is physically impossible to semi-forge something. It's impossible to forge things half-way. A piston, just like pretty much anything else, is either forged or cast.
In many cases when people speak about semi-forged pistons they actually speak about hypereutectic cast pistons. The term semi forged is common in the Subaru community and many people also like to call the 2JZ-GTE oem stock pistons semi forged. In reality they're cast hypereutectic pistons. Hypereutectic pistons are usually a step up from the more common gravity cast eutectic pistons because they do have a higher silicon content (more than 12.5%) which gives them better wear resistance, enables a tighter piston to bore fit and reduces emissions and blow-by). Although hypereutectic pistons need high pressure casting to be made properly, there is still zero forging going on during their manufacturing process. A molten aluminum alloy is fed under pressure into a mold. So the term semi-forged, although used often is definitely unjustified in the case of high pressure cast hypereutectic pistons.
So what about semi-forged wheels? Well, in their case the semi forged term is sort of justified. A semi forged wheel starts as a cast wheel with a thinner than specified rim. After it's cast it's set into a special machine that rolls the rim section into the final width of the wheel. This gives the rim section forged-like properties, however the segment of the wheel where the spokes are remains fully cast with cast mechanical properties.
What about pistons where the semi forged term is sort of justified? Well, the OEM 4AGZE Toyota pistons are one such case. These pistons aren't made using conventional low or high pressure casting methods. Instead, they are made using semi-solid casting. Semi solid casting relies on thixotropy, a property of certain fluids to be more viscous when agitated and less viscous when at rest. Aluminum is also thixotropic at certain temperatures and the semi solid casting process relies on this property to create parts of very high quality, great surface finish and excellent mechanical properties. Because aluminum is forced into the mould when semi solid there is no slushing or slurring of the liquid which results in zero porosity for the final product. On top of this semi solid parts have an excellent grain flow and a very fine micro structure, similar to that of forged pistons. The process also creates parts with a very smooth finish that don't shrink as they cool. This is why the undersides of semi solid cast pistons look very similar to that of forged pistons, without any parting lines or crosshatches.
This makes semi solid cast pistons excellent all-rounders giving them properties of both cast and forged pistons. They are usually made from a hypereutectic alloy with around 17% silicon in it, so they have low thermal expansion, but are strong thanks to their excellent micro-structure. Of course. a fully forged piston made from the 2618 alloy will still take more abuse and be stronger and more ductile, but semi solid cast pistons are much better all rounders.
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Isn't MAHLE the biggest OEM piston manufacturer?
I thought it meant forged then machined.
How lame that they're embarrassed to admit bc we won't like "the words."
Great my semi-machined-titanium-hypereutetic-cast-aluminium alloy engine head cover just arrived
Tough luck! 🤣
Semi machined 3D printing, aka "drill the holes where they're supposed to be!"
@@bryanst.martin7134 too hard, lemme get my 672 axis diamond welding mill
What do you have valves in block or something?
@@aterack833 i have 16 valves in my exhaust header
Another one down, another one down, another misconception hits the floor.
Man, you have a damn talent for this. These videos are reference material grade. I mean, intro level in a lot of cases. However a good spring board to launch from is invaluable in a topic as vast as engines. I learn so much from these videos.
Thank you.
+1 My thoughts exactly
I couldnt say it better
For the wheels, "semi-wrought" is probably a much more accurate description than "semi-forged".
Forged generally implies high temperatures above the recrystallisation temperature of the alloy, whereas wrought is a more generalised word to describe any time you're shaping a metal by using brute force to deform it below the melting temperature. More specifically in industry you'd typically call a lump of material shaped whilst red-hot "forged" and a piece of metal shaped while cold (like stamping car bodywork out of sheet) "wrought". Although to add even more confusion "cold-forged" is a term that also exists.
Engineering speak can be very messy sometimes, with words going back hundreds or even thousands of years. And then the Germans have an entire dictionary of their own engineering terms which don't translate well into English at all.
Thanks for the info.because of my poor performance in my English vocabularies and grammar I really don't understand the term "forged" .for me (incorrectly) it meant more towards cheating and/or producing something in a bad way.thanks again.
@@hermanman8235 Well, if you forge banknotes or paintings then your interpretation of the meaning is absolutely correct.
So 'forged' has come to mean two very different things in English. One, something fake (also known as a forgery). Two, a metal item produced by hammering in a forge (and usually of higher strength than a cast one).
It's called roll forging, edumacate yoseff
Ah, I remember learning about thixotropic metal forming many years ago - nice to know more about its applications. Curious to know more about the coatings that pistons get!
I'll do a video on coatings soon
Yes I remember the time I got my girlfriend semi pregnant.
😂😂😂🤣
She was actually hypereuknockedup.
🤣🤣 good my friend
Yea.. +1.... And now I'm a semi father. The kid is mine so she claims 😁😂😂😂 and my job is a semi truck driver. So everything just interconnects.......
What happened was it half a baby
man! I've learning so much in this channel. This is very helpful to me specially I'm having a automotive class
Saying your engine has "hypereutectic pistons" sounds much better when bluffing you are an expert.
The term “semi-forged” was probably coined by the same marketing goons that came up with “CAN Bus LEDs”. People who like buzzwords without understanding what they’re actually trying to describe.
Just like "99% fat free"
It's actually 0% fat free, because it still has fat in it.
No, there is a valid point here. Both semi-sold casting and high pressure hyper-eutectic casting involve a slurry, so a mix of molten phase and solid phase. Semi-solid casting starts with a slurry, hyper-eutectic alloys turn into slush before they solidify as they cool. Proper forging involves forming a soft solid phase. If you're dealing with a mix of liquid phase and solid phase, and it behaves like very high viscosity liquid, then there is some truth in calling it semi-forging.
@@Hydrazine1000 sounds half-assed to me...
Or like "dipped in Chrome"!
No such thing. How bout if pistons are run over by a "semi"! Does that make them "semi pistons"?
The growth you’ve done with your channel is amazing asf I’ve learned so much over the years
Nothing beats an engineer who loves cars when it comes to explaining anything related to a car. The quality of the information is next level. Most of this stuff you teach took me years of gaining parcels of information here and there to learn properly.
I've been 'playing' with engines about 50 years and this is the best video explanation I've seen.
Any time I learn something new is always good.
I had never heard of semi solid casting before although I had an idea of high pressure die cast parts due to various places my father worked.
I thank you and wish I was in a better position so I could send some cash your way
Don't worry, no need for cash, words like that are more than enough 😉
Don't care about cars or motorcycles, I don't even change oil in my car by myself, but I watch your videos just because they are really entertaining. And while I won't be disassembling any engines or repairing vehicles in nearest future, it's a cool bonus to learn something while enjoying good video. Thank you!
I remember when Honda was introducing pressure cast Aluminum. It was similar in strength to forged. Not bad for Aluminum. This would probably be where the the diffusion began.
There simply is no other place on the net to find information like this presented in like this. I've been racing and building motors for 40 years and find these presentations absolutely ilumating! They have been invaluable in preparing for my next rebuild. Thank you so much.
I follow all your programs from Iran. Excellent and informative.
This video is amazing man! You're an absolute asset to the greater car community. :)
Can you explain SHOT PEENED gears please?
I love the channel, you're a pioneer.
I really fell for it at first 😅,
Great explanation as usual - keep it up mate!
Love your vids. Keep em going
Congratulations man!!!! what a master piece of video haha, great information and explanation!!!!!
Great video, I didn't know such terminology existed. Keep up the good work my friend.
On of the best if not the best channel as far as automobile industry is concerned 🤔👍🏽
Nice to see this explained, recently bought the same set from MRP too and wondered what they really are :D
As always, i enjoyed it, found it useful, and entertaining man! Never knew the difference but now I do, cheers!
I think this guy knows so much about cars, that he can start his own automobile company.
GREAT VIDEOS!! KEEP ON GOING!
Injection molding casting has been a thing for decades in plastics, it's even been a thing for metals for many years. Most compacted grey iron engine blocks for diesel engines are cast under injection pressure because they are mechanically stronger than your typical gravity cast block.
Mrp is a great. Have bought from them a number of times. Excellent communication as well! Also they price match. Makes it hard to justify shopping anywhere else.
I like your videos, they are very information heavy!
Very impressive video, informative and entertaining.
Really good stuff man! Dropping a comment to help out the algorithm.
lots of great new information, thanks!
learned a lot again, thank you Professor D4A!
Perfect channel for a car nerd and for me
I love how you called out the bullshit on the forums I hate when people miss educate ppl like Lauren Hill
you are so comprehensive! Thank you!
O melhor vídeo sobre o assunto ❤❤❤
This video really good, simple explanation...
Dude I cant believe you only have 200k subs... you're gonna blow up soon, I can tell.
My first guess is a combination of casting and forging.
Something that I would probably do try to do (and I wouldn't call it sem-forged) is start off with a combination of advanced casting processes, and then utilize a combination of ultrasonic frequencies and aerogel-based thermal insulation within the mould/die to maximize the evenness of the entire alloy and crystal structure. I would follow up with some precise machining, and finish off with a combination of inductive heat treating and surface treating.
i learn so mutch from you , thank you !!
I'm very disappointed, I really loved your sword fairy tale! :-D
Excellent, brilliant, clear as always!
Hello all, First of all - thanks for great videos. You can explain so complex problems in such way that it is so easy to understand. Secondly: based on your videos i realised, that such pistons would be most suitable for my use (casual driving with very ocasional track days). But how to search for pistons like this? Go for “semi-forged”, “hyper eutectic” or something different? I know that it is about looking at the specs but how to specify searching for semi-solid casted hyper eutectic pistons? Thanks a Lot in advance and thanks for a great content once again.
Great work my Dear 👍🏻 Greetings from Unkel ,Germany
Been wondering how a piston can be semi-forged for so long. Thank you so much
You should do a podcast. I like listening to you talk.
You are a master teacher 👨🏫
Just plain old pressure die casting with the wheels its just metal spinning on a casting - thank you very well presented
Are you gonna make a video about camshafts too?
Keep up the good work!
Great video! Thanks.
🇵🇷 💘 ur teaching methods,great job
Honda K series can also take over 500hp with stock oem pistons, just wondering if these really are "just" cast?
I thought it was a cast piston with a forged steel head
I always learn something from your videos, generally even when I revisit them.
And yeah, semi-forged sounds like marketing hype. I kept thinking of a "semi-forged cheque".
And I have to admit I was befuzzled at first, going, "Huh?" Then I remembered you did this sort of hoax before....
great educational info. what reliable brands of semi solid high pressure cast hypereutectic pistons..? i'm on a project for 2GR-FE & 1GR-FE supercharged mild performance & daily use.
Same pistons I have on my 7AGE. Perfect video
brillant, thanks
i would like to use these piston on an 4afe high compression build no turbo stock block with stock head stock head gasket, and a set of 262/258 cams how much compression ratio would you think this will result to?
Great piston
Very interesting, informative and entertaining. Thank you, good sir.
Loved the intro. I was like WTF?!
I was like 15 the last time I used the "halfway in" lie. I guess it still works.
All die cast hyperutectect pistons are strong and might be marketed as semi forged. Truly semi forged possums are really also semi die cast pistons. Thanks for providing great technical information.
Thank you for the video, excellent! though you forgot to mention one thing. These days CNC is quite accessible and cheap to use, so many pistons are machined all over. how do you recognise piston manufacturing process than and not to be forced to trust manufacturer :) That is tricky question. usually it goes like this "machined all over = forged piston" Also funny thing that Mhale has very similar designation for cast and forged piston M124 - cast according to you, though M142 forged. Big LOL, easy to confuse your self :)
Heyy i have a piston from a 4age block that i am not sure what it is exactly whether cast or forged it has a darkish crown similar to the one you displayed in the video and a silver like skirt but it doesnt dimple like the one you have it just has sinks for the valves what is it exactly? But besides that i really wanted to find out if it can be reused as it has some pitting caused by valves hitting the piston can it be reused? Or is there any way for me to send you a photo of it?
Ah... That explains a lot.
Thanks lad.
Question: could you make a video about water injection systems?
Are there mechanical ways to inject them?
Or are there any usage against knocking without turbocharger?
Are there such for motorcycles?
Do a video on polishing heads. There are still people that do thet on intake part and believe that increase performance when in reality it does opposite.
Can you help us on a discussion about the Alfa Romeo Giulia? Seems it’s advertised as forged crankshaft and pistons , but some have identified them as cast.. can you find out?
"Once upon a time!, sir!
start the vids with that!
ultrasonic welding or sonic welding can be used to connect forged and cast part but i know they don't use it in engines yet but could be possible
I recently read an online article about Hypereutectic pistons. It said "One manufacturer claims it's Hyper pistons can handle 2hp per cubic inch" yet they didn't mention which manufacturer that was. Another manufacturer claimed 1000 hp/Hypereutectics with a proper tune but no manufacturer name was given for that either.
Likely will buy your stickers to put on my tuning laptop and tool boxes :)
Can You check if the piston is cast or hypereutectic just by looking on it? Or with some home methods?
Where can I get some aftermarket pistons made like this for a Mazda/Ford Duratec 2.3 or 2.5 engine?
High pressure casting of an oversized part "blank" that is subsequently pressed to final size in a secondary mold similar to the wheel analogy. This process reduces the size of the voids in the cast blank and creates some strengthening grain flow. In other words, semi-forged/thixotropic. Semi-forged is easier for layman to understand than thixotropic.
A die is placed between two semi trucks at full speed. The impact forges the pistons, but not quite fully, allowing for a little more ductility
So calling them Semi-Forged is a Forgery in itself ?
The Thixotropic Casting explanation was Excellent . The Process IS actually similar to Cold Forging without the Violence and Risk .
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
These videos are so interesting that I'm wanting to do my post-grad in automotive engineering rather than mechatronics or do you think that I could incorporate mechatronics with the automobile industry? (Currently studying Mechanical Engineering)
tl,dr you can work in automotive as mechatronics engineer, but try applying in a company that does process control as an automotive engineer.
That's only half the truth though. Engineering is so complex and applications so specialized, that you will always have to keep learning.
Even applying for the same job, at a different company, might mean things are done differently.
So choose what you like, cause chances are, you will have more fun during your masters.
If you are good and your courses, or past work experience, are at least halfway relevant, you will find a job.
I've met an engineer who went from Porsche to Airbus to RedBull F1.
That being said mechatronics is still a bit more universally applicable.
@@kilianortmann9979 thank you for the advice!
You should do a video on magnesium engines
Same thing about semi-automatic hand guns, they are all automatic but with different trigger selectors (single, burst, full auto).
I for one, am very glad that John Snow knows his shit
I swear I had never missed my single class if he was teacher ❤
I’m using this toyota piston in to mivec 4g92 turbo with 480hp at 1.8bar no issue..
Worth for budget
Where can I find pistons like this for a ford?
Holy cow man! How do you know all this stuff? Are you educated in metalurgy?
Where can I buy pistons like this?
Is your video auto detecting where I am from and displaying the price in NZD?
Yes, my video is equipped with artificial intelligence. It's definitely not a still screen shot image of the mrp website.
4agze piston are very popular for mitsubishi 4g9X turbo
What happened to the website man!? I just tried to access it and it says the domain is gone!
I'll likely be taking it down, I don't have time to maintain it anymore. I'll retain ownership of the domain tho.
Not sure if you have one, but could you do a video on 2618 vs 4032 forged pistons?
Im an early mechanical engineering student and I'm looking to forge my block for my supercharged 5.7 hemi. I think 4032 are good for my goal (max 12psi boost ~750whp, daily driven) while most shops sell 2618 pistons.
You'll find the info here, towards the end of the video: ua-cam.com/video/rN2ND_FPnUA/v-deo.html
With good tuning, 4032, should be totally ok.
All I heard was “Toyota-something-something-something-SUPERCHARGED.”
Although I could see an attempt being made at, say, forging a piston top for greater strength, then casting the rest of the piston around this forged “biscuit,” resulting in lower outward expansion of the main body of the piston, combined with higher impact strength and density of the forged head. I could see that working correctly if the expansion rates were carefully accounted for. Also, doing a “two-piece” construction may allow for a crown-oil-cooling-passage to be carefully incorporated into the design.
Alternately, a forging could be made where only the crown area of the piston is actually subjected to the forging compression, leaving the rest of the piston at a lighter density, although I would still worry about internal stresses from the differential expansion and contraction.
👍
Hello sir. your work is excellent. please I need to talk to you personally how possible is that ?.
I actually know a situation where semi-forged is actually a justifiable term. If you cast a piston blank and then hammer or press forge it too spec.
I just subscribed to the channel..
Would you mind do a video explaining how to calculate wheel fender and tire fitment?
There really is no formula, and there's a million variables. Only way around it is to measure and test fit until you get the desired fitment.
Measure your oem wheel.
Compare measurement of new wheel
Measure available space around oem rim.
Is that difference larger than space available?
Your welcome.
Another option is to go to the Fitment Industries website and see what they have in their gallery.
They have a massive gallery and provide wheel and tire specs depending on what type of fitment you're looking for.
It simplifies the whole process
@@fastinradfordable Agree! For weird projects and unanticiapted problems a good way to measure clearences of the wheel and suspension arms, steering and other bits is to have the car suspended by the frame and whte springs removed. This allows the wheels to be put at full steering lock and full stroke up and down to better asses the clearances available in all possible positions.
In case of double wishbone suspension is really easy to just unbolt the whole spring-damper combo. On macpherson struts is a bit more complicated. Removing the spring and reasamble the strut on the car without the spring is pretty hard and time consuming but well worth it. The alternative is a lethal danger lurking if the spring is just in compressed state by clamps. In theory it works, in practice is a big no-no. A car spring has a lot of force and energy stored in it. A J hook clamp can slip and slide, or the spring buckles and slips out, is a waiting danger. If that happens while taking measurements around the wheel expect the wheel to go full force in down position and can and will kill you or break and sever limbs cought in suspension arms. So don't skimp on this!
I know there are many variables, I have checked out fitment industries I just wanted to hear you're explanation @driving 4 answers
I subscribed
15:55 what about 4032 forged vs semi-solid cast?