Why F1 Pistons Cost £50,000!
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- Опубліковано 4 гру 2020
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This single piston costs £50,000. And for good reason. It has to withstand over 200G when moving up and down in the engine at over 80mph.
F1 engines cost over £7 Million each and these pistons are one of the key components that help them produce over 1000hp.
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But why does it cost 1000 times more than the piston out of your road car? It turns out there are many very good reasons for insane costs.
If you’re into F1, then you’ll know that you can’t start an F1 engine like you can with a normal road car.
The incredible tolerances mean that the pistons are seized in the cylinders until the car is warmed up, so the engineers have to take at least 30 minutes to warm the coolant and oil before they can start the engine.
So how come you don't need to do this in your road car?
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Did you know so much goes into these Pistons?
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The other cost here is the incredible amount of time and labor spent on development (R&D). But $67,200.00 is more than I could have imagined.
I'm genuinely surprised they don't use some sort of titanium aluminum alloy
Ummm, no way they cost 50k pounds. Maybe for their entire allotment for a whole year, but not per engine and definitely not per unit. Each team makes many of these pistons each year & the tech is well developed and understood & has been for a long time. Ultra high rpm engines have been around since the late 50's/early 60's. Modern machining is extremely fast and very accurate & can easily get to very high tolerances. The metallugy is also well developed. Pistons have been made slightly oval on all kinds of engines for decades now. These pistons cost no more to make than anything you'd find in any high level sportbike(many of which spin over 15k rpm).
Once they have the design figured, the rest is pretty straightforward. The design work is also much easier now that it used to be. The software available for this is incredible.
@@overlandwalkabout6376 I was thinking the same, also he stated that F1 pistons runs with 0.15mm clearance, that does not add up. I hope he will clarify
@@Iggy900ss it is an urban myth that f1 engines can't be rotated cold.
I built BMW V10 F1 engines in the early 2000s for a Williams chassis team out of Dallas. We machined our own pistons from forged billet bar stock. Then we hardened them by a process of heat treating and cryo cycles. Less than .001% expansion from 0-280°C. F1 tech has made leaps and bounds since then, but what we were doing was pretty cutting edge back then.
That has to be one insane CNC machine
First time I didn't skip the sponsored message for its smoothness
Cheers man!
Kinda agree
and I still dont trust their legitness
is there any car related video on YT in the trends without a comment from u? :D
Then what for did you skip it? 🙃
I watched this video twice because I was so intrigued.. Your information and delivery is spot on. Well played Sir. I will be enjoying more of your content.
Love this channel !! Anything that spills forth the inner workings of a Formula One car - in an interesting and forthright manner - and I’m riveted - all in - and completely captivated !! This channel does exactly this. 😎 been subscribed for a while and I highly recommend this channel for all things motor sport !! Nice 👍 one ! And thanx for the interesting info ! Cheers 🥂
Never seen someone put in sponsors so seamlessly it doesn’t bother u at all as they normally do!! Great work
Maybe linus?
@@thunderlucas8923 beat me to it
Only channel I know that's as seamless is Tier Zoo
actually they made me stop the video
I take it you haven't seen rich rebuilds then...
As a cnc programer and machinist I call BS on £50,000 unless the raw material cost is £49,000.
The tolerances you mentioned are tight, but not something a regular industrial cnc machine can't handle.
As a CNC shop owner in China, I must say you totally nailed it. If the tolerance requirements mentioned in the video are correct, the challenges of making these pistons are just nothing more than our everyday tasks.
The costs are the R&D costs, certification/F1 legality checks cost and the simple fact that the buyers are willing to pay this price. Normally, the R&D costs in for products would dilute, but since these are made in quadruple digits at best it can be crazy expensive. Not to mention that these need to withstands such forces. And do not forget the certification costs! My parents are dentists and they have to use a lot of certified things, but these are not only the dentist devices, these apply to even things like computer monitors or metal trays, which do not even get close to the patients mouth. The certified metal trays cost $48 (I dont know the exact exchange course), while you can get similar in store for $4. 12 times the price for the same product.
maybe they buy a new CNC machine for each piston?
@@josefmuller86 Even if this were true the pistons still don't cost 50,000 pounds. The research costs what it costs, The question is what does it cost and F1 team to buy the next piston. 50,000 pounds would be nuts.
Graphene costs abut $100 a gram but from those in the graphene industry that i have talked to, everything is top secret and they told me that there is an upper limit on the amount of graphene that is used. Graphene is many times stronger than steel and is a mystery material for the outside world. Of course the $15,000 racing bikes and both the Williams sisters tennis rackets are made from graphene, but in racing the old adage is "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" John Force could use it in his NHRA Funny Cars because one explosion he had in 2019 or 2018, cost him about $750,000 in lost stuff as everything on the car and frame was toast. For a racing engine, not Top Fuel or Funny Car, about one percent of graphene in a 750 gram piston will raise the cost of the piston by a few hundred dollars. Two percent is a good number, but in Indy cars, it is about perfect, as they are no where near as expensive as F One engines. But, can you run better pistons at just some of the races but not all of them? Such as the Indy 500, where the winner gets about $2 million in prize money and extra endorsements, running a piston worth $5,000 is probably worth it, just for that one race....even if you place second where you take home about $800,000.
That was one of the clearest and most concise explanations I've ever heard. Bang On Chaps!
These videos are unreal. So well done.
Thank you for giving me credit! Awesome Video
i wach all your viedos
i saw it
More like: "Thanks for taking snippets of my (your) videos (which took days and weeks to make) and, combining them with dozens of clips from other content creators, adding a narration over the top, and making money from it!" I (you) might get a handful of viewers due to this 'exposure'.
I'm sure these guys contact every youtube channel they steal...errrrrr borrow... from to get permission! I bet they even share the royalties from the millions of views, and share sponsorship profit.😂🙄🤔
@@endokrin7897 really? It's kinda ironic that you're writing a whole paragraph for attention as well
See they spelt it ' Warped PerceRption'
The company I work for makes F1 pistons and I can assure you we get nowhere near £50,000 folr a piston not even £1,000 think you have pulled numbers out from where the sun does not shine.
I thought it was way too high, yeah it's gonna cost more but in the end it's just a piece of metal with a different tool path on the cnc.
I was thinking this like there are alot of backyard built 1000hp motors around and i know they cant hold full noise for the duration of an f1 race but still all it is really is just higher quality control
Serious question. Does the team you produce for actually win?
@@tylerboto8930 Can those backyard 1k horsepower builds turn 15k plus rpms..... reliably?
@@asylumville8544 thats what I'm saying they cant ,but if backyarders are doing that on a budget of a quarter of the price of a single f1 piston then there is definitely some money wasting going on
Thanks for all these really interesting videos Scott. 😊👊
Very informative video! Thank you for posting
I was today years old when I learned that F1 engines seize at room temperature.
Same, i was not ready for that information.
Also, hi miata dad f1 engine when??
That means my old Alfa engine was an F1 engine but I didn't know it!
they should be too loose to start engine, not to seize... something is wrong.
Edit: video has several misinformation.
So yeah, pistons can't seize in room temperature. Metals expand when heated, so engine components are really loose on room temperature. Thats why they need to heat up the engine before starting. They just could not start it at lower temperature, because compression flows past the compressor rings at room temperature.
@@Martink9191 remember the block and bore diameter also shrinks. the passageways for the pre-heated oil/water are of course located in the block. the piston then gains most of it's dimensional changes off the intense heat of combustion AFTER the engine's running.
They are NOT seized prior to starting. The internal components (piston, rings, wrist pin, con rod, etc) "swell up" once they are hot. If it's "seized" prior, it won't start once it's up to operating temperature because aluminum, steel, plasma moly, actually swell up BECAUSE OF HEAT, so the pistons would be even more seized 🙄 than before temperature is brought up lol.
You might want to check the statement that piston experiences more force from direction change than the combustion pressure. I couldn't find the exact number for piston diameter or peak cylinder pressure but max bore is 80 mm, so lets use 75 mm on calculation and then lets use relatively low peak pressure of 150 bars. That generates already 6 tons of force against the piston.
Hey, great to have you here! This is the reference for that statement - blog.wiseco.com/how-to-make-pistons-lighter
Man I noticed that too but it took me a second and then i was like wait a minute that's not right
@@Driver61 6seOa
Nope, 100% correct that maximum load is at TDC OVERLAP as there isn't any 'cushioning effect from mixture or combustion. That's something I knew about from motorcycle literature in late 1960's.
As for why pistons cost £50,000, didn't explain that at all. (see my general comment)
Damnit Lauri, why do you Finnish think you're so smart?😀 Had to give you some shit! You should get ahold of some of these and do some press tests...
Nice review explanation bro, i support ayour channel for more knowledge 👍✌
Awesome video. Very insightful.
Not sure if you looked into top fuel drag racers with 11,000 to 20,000 HP where between each run the entire engine is dismantled and rebuilt. F1 cars are awesome I live near the Indy 500 track.
Granted each is different race styles, one turning left slot. The other straight ahead. Both styles of racing just incredible.
Keep up the great videos. :)
Isn't the Indy 500 Indycar and not F1?
Edit: I misread the comment, never mind XD
The key thing that wasn't touched on in this video was production volume. You could spend hundreds of millions of dollars in the design/tooling/production planning of a piston, but if you manufacture millions of them, the cost of each piston decreases closer and closer towards its variable raw material cost.
If you spend only $2 million dollars in the design/tooling/production of a piston which will only be manufactured less than 100 times, your per-piston cost is much higher than just the materials, since each piston is absorbing massive amounts of the research/design costs.
Long and short, it's not the materials or design that's extraordinarily expensive compared to consumer vehicles, it's the fact that there are only a handful made compared to the millions that are produced for commercial applications.
Look at ev batteries, that logic fails a lot.
Great points!
And the cylinder seizes in the engine block .. LoL .
Rubbish .. they say this about halfway through that’s when I stop listening .. !!!!
Actually, quantity doesn't always translate to lower or higher price. My buddy just had a set of Ross forged pistons designed & built for his Olds Diesel block 440ci Super Comp engine with a set of custom 1 off Batten heads & they were exactly the same price as a more common set of small block Ford or Chevy pistons, about $1,400 for a set of 8, including a set of very thin Total Seal rings(.037 comp & .078 oil rings). He was worried he might have tweaked 1 of the oil rings so he called Total Seal & bought 1 comp ring, which was $80 inc shipping! Same thing with his set of TD rocker arms. The heads had to go to BOTH manufacturers for the parts to be designed & made & each pair rockers MUST go in specific locations on the heads. His mid 80s Cutlas has gone 7.96/168 with NO power adders on race gas with a single Pro Systems carb at Phoenix in June with 4,000 ft altitude air density, so it's no slouch & he knows what he's doing. Reher & Morison told him that HIS 555 BBC engine made 50 more HP than theirs! He's hoping for sub 8.50s on an 8.90 index. BTW, his 440 has so little ring friction that the engine won't stay on TDC while adjusting the valves without the spark plugs in the cylinders or a lock on the flywheel.
@@bradgriffith4231 Well, that’s because your buddy’s pistons didn’t have $2M of R&D time put into designing them. Someone probably spent an hour or two tweaking some parameters of a template and that was all the design work that was required.
Damn and I'm over here crying about paying $180 for every piston ring
i mean that's still nearly extortion for most cars.
Somebody's sticking it to you Pedro. Contact one of the ring manufactures with your ring sizes. I just bought Perfect Circle rings for my 638" (4.625" bore) chevy for $212.00
and
F1 teams burn someone elses money too
@@rallikas they cost that much because the sport generates that type of money so the parts companies charge them way more. they could sell them for 6-8k each. but it you can make somebody pay more why sell for less.
Too expensive for what you actually need
Me: I want to go really fast, really efficiently. What’s it going to cost?
Engineer : Ohhhh yes!
Very insightful, thanks a lot for this video.
Good video but you forgot the biggest cause of costs. The reason why the pistons are so expensive is the low quantity. Designing and planning those pistons is extremely expensive due to the wage for the engineers. You basically have dozens of people work for one product so this product has to “carry” their wage. Normally a high quantity would spread those costs over thousands of components.
So it basically cheap to make, but they just make it expensive
@@andriusstankunas6555 I mean when you spend 10 million dollars designing one component and only make 20 of them, you gotta make money somehow
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The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
And they asked him, What then?
Art thou Elias?
And he saith, I am not.
Art thou that prophet?
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And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
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John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
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This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
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And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
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This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
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Gospel of John - Chapter 1-2, King James Version.
@@jakub8860 can you tell this god dude you speak of to do something productive for once instead of being a petty, murderous, power hungry child?
With tolerances so tight, I would love to see how they assemble the engines and get those pistons inside in the first place.
Very carefully with a warm block I'd imagine.
They use dry ice to freeze the piston which shrinks it
i work with tolerances down to about +-0.0015mm and i can say it's more time consuming than it is hard to work with. such fine tolerances also very expensive ofc.
@@Wehra96 what do you do? Those are tight!
@@devinhudson4905 i manufacture parts mostly for hydraulic systems, my job title is CNC operator but i also do honing of valve components which usually have a tolerance of either +0mm to -0.003mm or +0mm to -0.005mm. anything over 0.01mm would be considered pretty easy tolerances to deal with.
Very interesting!!! My favorite is drag racing but I like all forms of motorsports. It's amazing how much money is spent on F1 cars. Great video!!!!
Just found your channel a bit ago. Subbed. Interesting vids :)
300 gram at 1G weighs ~= 3N ~= 0.3kg at 1G
300 gram at 200G weighs ~= 600N ~= 60kg at 1G
Right? If so, then it's 60kg instead of 600kg.
yep
Except they take nearly 10 000g
Yep, he got the g-forces wrong and the clearances too, so much for precision...
Thats right. And the g-forces is also uncorrect. The old F1 engines that reved 20 000rpm had as high 10 000g on the pistons, gives the max force on the piston converted to kg, 3 000kg.
That was the smoothest sponsor transition I’ve ever seen
M
Eh maybe from a car channel. Polymatter does it better, that's what he's known for.
Thanks for that ! Great vid
I would love to see the spare part price sheets for these motors , especially when they tear them down for routine maintenance. The engines alone are works of art to me. I love the V-12 motors personally.
5:43 you are calculating a force (in newton) not a weight here. That statement is completely wrong, 600N don't translate to 600 kg.
Yeah 😂
next time you tag something #Engineering, check the units;)
Also 2:55 0.15mm is not 60 thou but 6.
300 grams x 200G = 60kg
Better check the G force numbers again too. Those posted here are way low.
I love these videos where you show and explain some of the incredible technical details of F1 cars and engines. Thank you! 🙏
Thank you for a good explanation of tolerances! So many people equate “tolerance” with “precision”, when in fact it is a statement of how much imprecision is tolerable.
Formula video + listening to the music I like (Delta Parole, Metallica and other) make me feel the speed and excitement!
Could you make a video about wheel to wheel battles? About what moves are considered dirty or clean? I think that would be a great topic + it would be cool to see breakdowns of some battles of f2 2020 season such as Mazepin vs Drugovich in Sakhir in the first race. Really liked the breakdowns you did in the past!
1:37 It's a big misconception that the 2nd ring is a compression ring, it's actually an oil scraper. If the 2nd ever traps comp it will lift the top ring and kill power.
Pro Stock has a higher G loading because it has 3x longer stroke and revs only 3000rpm less.
Pro Stock engines are actually very short stroke for being 500 cubic inches. The Chevy PS engines are currently 4.700" bore & 3.600" stroke, although that is probably at least 3 times the stroke of an F1 engine
BEST one I have seen so far!
Did I see Project Farm lawnmower see through?
I watched a commentator do a series on these engines and the one thing he said, which blew me away, is THERE ARE NO GASKETS..!! Each component part is blue printed to tolerances so close, they parts meet perfectly and dont need gaskets. Amazing! Also Nikki Lauda interview, he laughed when asked where the key was on an F-1 to start it???? (there is no key, just a start button ) . Amazing engine and video, thanks , RH DS D KING DIO
Maybe thats explains why they dont have blow outs at excess rpms
Wow im real stupid but I’m a learned milling machine operator in Germany, and when you talk about 0,1mm its like such an incredible huge of variation,... like even if you’re are an apprentice on a 50 year old machine, you have to be capable of producing products which are 10 times more accurate, and sometimes up to 50 times... and that is really something a good machine operator can achieve ...
Just interesting to see it from another perspective
P.s. I worked on road car parts and even there, there is no part of the motor in which tolerances of 0,1mm can be accepted .....over here we call it carpenters tolerances...
but 0,1mm is a waaaaay to big tolerance in Automobil standards... even if it’s not f1
I was so confused by that part he definatly has the conversion wrong because 60 thou is such a big number for anything the first part I ever made in school was a 30 thou tolerance
I hadn’t thought about clearances in an F1 engine before... pistons effectively seized in a cylinder until the engine approaches operating temperature is amazing and surprising... but makes perfect sense... now I understand why start up and shut down procedures are so crucial to preserve an engine and maintain tolerances... amazing engineering... thank you for this video.
I've heard numerous times that it's just not true. But that preparing does help with reducing wear.
Great video and great info. Thanks.
Very educational. Thank You!
2:55 : My 14 years old motorcycle has a maximum clearance of piston and bore of 0,05mm...
Are you sure this number is right? 0.15 is huge...
This. 0.15 is more of a russian standard.
@@therwfer "Eh, stop complaining Vasiliy, I hammer it into block so it fit"
He got his MM vs Inches mixed up.
0,15mm is normal clearance for forged pistons, cast pistons require much less clearances.
I think it migth have been an example and not coroct
In reality, I'm not really fan of F1 but I do love exploring the sport's ground breaking technology... Great content!
I'm in the US and I love racing but I cant watch Nascar. I like Indy car but F1 is where its at for me. The cars, the people are just so interesting. IMSA is pretty cool so is the LE Mans, those prototypes are sick!
What a eye opening and informative video on why and F1 piston costs so much!
really cool vid. I really like the graphics
Incredible 👍... just learnt new things.. thanks 👍
Ive put Wiseco forged pistons in my s13’s ca18det. €1050,- for 4.
Hey, that´s a bargain!
The quality of this video is top shelf
Fascinating! I can't think of another sport where so much money goes into it!
dont want to be that guy but at 2:54 - 0.15mm is 0.006" (6 thou). also a human hair is about 0.002"
'Slightly wider' is key word
If the difference between the piston dia. and the cylinder dia. is .006 the piston to cylinder wall clearance is .003.
That was a smooth transition to the ad I wish everyone else was like that
I didn't think I'd be this interested in this video. Good vid
I'm busy with F1 valve design and having the team audit our site next week for production in 3 weeks... I can tell after going through this development why it costs so much. That little piece of the entire engine with only our costs is 130 pounds worth. And I'm receiving the already made valve... It's crazy just listening to what and how F1 engineers think. They are another breed of human.
but the alu piston of my bike costs like 40$ and also revs up to 15000rpm
Great video, I enjoy your insight into F1 tech and race theory.
One note:
At 5:44 you mention the effective weight of the piston at 200G is 600kg. Weight (or Force) is measured in Newton’s, so it would be 600N. A more accurate comparison would be to say a 300 gram piston will behave like 60 kilograms; a 200 times multiplier
too bad 1kg isnt 1nm. its around 10. 9.81 to be exact
Now THAT was fascinating..................thank you.
It seems simple, but it contains a lot of technical elements. 👍
Great Video as always. I think this is exactly why durability made F1 actually more expensive rather than saving money. I remember in the V10 era that a rule change mandated the V10 to last for 2 weekends to reduce costs. I'm not sure who it was but some teamboss said, the budget remains the same so each engine will simply be twice as expensive. Before that an 19k rpm V10 "only" costed around 150.000 pound.
I actually have an F1 piston and con rod from Eddie Irving’s jag . It’s in my shed because the mrs didn’t like it on the mantle piece .
I think he means the cylinder expands more than the piston, allowing the piston to move in a warm engine.
It seems to me that a cold forged piston with machining to final dimensions would be the most cost effective when weighing strength to weight ratio.
I'm guessing that when they assemble the engine, they freeze the pistons and heat the block to allow them to fit.
@0:06 It is a good reason that it is build to the highest standards, not a good reason for 50,000 quid, since it could be 33,333, 66,666 or 77,777 quid. ;)
Same amount I've spent at Amazon this year
50 bucks?
@@300ml_brasil *grand
What how
You've probably given amazon more than amazon has paid in tax !
Jeff Bezos thanks you for that.
As a machinist with 30 years experience I can promise you that there is some cost-shifting going on with that £50,000 Price Tag...
Its a click bait ... $50k my ass lol ... Judd and Cosworth would gladly give you the whole F1 engine instead :) for 7million they could give you 10 or 100 in bulk :) crash all you want :)
@@Zohar-Modifier I don't think it's 7m for an engine, it's probably that amount per year in design, development, production, and testing etc. for the whole engine allocation for a race season.
@@neilmcmahon Sound resonable, and they build and use how many engines in a year? For racing, the limit recently seem to be 3 per driver and year (for 22 races). With two driver per team, and a few engines used for practice and testing, this would be less than 20 engines per team per year.
So the total budget would be about 140 M$ for engine development, manufacturing and tooling.
Compare this to making hundreds of thousands of engines per year even for a relatively short series of road cars.
So the cost for these parts is very much a factor of short series, probably more than the tolerances.
I agree, no way we would have won that quote, just add 500% markup and you'll be good to go.
even an ameture machinist like myself could get a .001 mm tolerance with a good cnc mill. at most they could cost $1000, also keep in mind that the honda s2000 has almost the same piston speed as an f1 engine and those are reasonably priced cars
Superb... outstanding explanation
Learnt a lot , tkx
2:50 Absolutely love the way you're talking about F1 pistons and then show the combustion chamber from a sidevalve engine in action.
Thanks for explaining how there's absolutely no reason for the piston to cost as much as a Ferrari engine
Yeah, he totally forgot the fact that the R&D cost is divided between few produced units, which is likely the largest contributor to cost. I doubt it costs much more to manufacture an F1 piston than a high-end sports car piston.
@@1312_PV Yep, also F1 whole engine doesn't cost more than 500k in material and labor, not 7M lol... Especially considering that they pretty much use the same engine from year to year with just small adjustments. And what costs the most is that research, not the engine or parts themselves.
If you would put an F1 car in production so everyone can buy, you could literally sell the whole car for 1-2m in mass production...
Quality content!
These comments are truly amazing! I am humbled to be "rubbing elbows" with so many intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced F1 engineers, racers, and engine builders who are gracious enough to correct nearly everything this fellow said! Thank you all so much!
Great video! I am a bit confused though. At 0.39 you say an F1 engine is effectively seized when cold due to its tight tolerances. Surely it is tight clearances, not tolerances, that cause this issue. Specifically, there is no clearance between piston and cylinder wall until the engine warms up.
How are these engines initially assembled? Do they have to be at operating temp then as well?
they probably cool the pistons & rods and heat up the block, that should make it easier, u even use that technique in normal cars sometimes, like changing bearings in a gearbox or engine etc.
I had the same question
Unless the engine block is magnesium, the aluminum pistons will expand and contract at the same rate as the block, so the pistons aren't what would seize in a cold engine. The block would be undersized around the steel crankshaft at room temperature however.
@@RallyRat I doubt that the piston rings are made of ally!
@@overlandwalkabout6376 but the exact opposite was said in the video 🤔?
As a professional machinist who deals with .0001 thousands tolerances, this is just everyday for me
Lol was about to comment the same thing 🤣.
.0001 thousands tolerances? Damn man in my job that might as well be the size of a house.
Woo machinist party! I've made parts for both NASA and F1, and keeping tolerances under half a thou are tough, but not impossible! On really critical parts I always use fresh tooling (thanks ISCAR, love you) and loooots of coolant. What machines do you guys use? I'm a HAAS/MORI guy myself
@@avishai7830 a party it is!!! I’m a haas guy mainly but have my assortments with fanuc
Yeah I was just being sarcastic really :D Hat's off to your profession requirements, enjoy the party..
new info, thankyou
This might just be one of the most well-made videos i've seen in a while.
And that sponsor transition was smoother than even the most perfectly machined F1 engine.
But very inaccurate.
there's a suck-up for ya. A like troll.
So, who else doesn't accept the NON explanation of the price ?
Yawn ~ I love when they give some tolerance (200g force) with zero comparison ~ Maybe a standard cylinder takes 180g force ? Sounds more like military pricing than any type of 'legitimate' reasoning. Big Yawn ~
,,, NASA, could buy beryllium pistons, tested, on the Space Station, for less than that . I guess Daimler is glad it's a ¥-6, ,,, lol .
@@jamesscott7527 ,,, see above .
those tolerances are not that hard to achieve, also "very expensive materials" which is aluminium? :D
Judd and Cosworth will sell you F1 engine for price cheaper than 7million in bulk of 100 :)
Forged pistons expand at operating temperature, hence why they're always undersized in relation to the cylinder bore, and also why it is normal to hear piston slap when cold on a built engine for boosting applications using forged pistons. The idea of a F1 engine with forged pistons being seized up when cold is a kind of odd, and I think that there is more to the story than being told.
Agreed. Why noone talks about this is odd. Modern engines have 0.03-0.05 mm gap between the piston and the cylinder wall. F1 engine has 0.15 mm gap. This is done because the engine always operates at maximum power, the piston is very hot and expands way more. If a road car has forged pistons, it has a bigger gap about 0.07-0.1 mm
I really like this channel, car science is brain candy for me
Very interesting video, especially from an engineering standpoint! Kepp up the good work!
I just wanted to say thanks.
I don't know how I would be able to sleep tonight without knowing this.
This was literally thee most important information I learned this entire year.
Next year: how to spell "the"
@@PossumMedic Next time you learn to read English.
Thee and the are 2 different words. Open a book on English linguistics.
@@frankburdodrums8984 did thou learn english in the xviiith century?
@@PossumMedic Pick up a book on English and Roman numerals, expand your horizons.
@@frankburdodrums8984 books are heavy 🙁
Back when money wasn't capped I remember ferrari casting one of Schumachers gearboxes out of a single solid block of beryllium. If you look at a list of how many cars he drove its huge , evolved chassis throughout each season , if he had every chassis in a museum it would be vast and wonderful to behold in my opinion. I'm loving this sort of content , thanks ever so much mate.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
And they asked him, What then?
Art thou Elias?
And he saith, I am not.
Art thou that prophet?
And he answered, No.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye?
They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
He saith unto them, Come and see.
They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
And he brought him to Jesus.
And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?
Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water.
And they filled them up to the brim.
And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast.
And they bare it.
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.
When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.”
Gospel of John - Chapter 1-2, King James Version.
@@jakub8860 are you f785ing mental ? I think you need psychiatric help or hospitalisation, I'll be more than glad to help hospitalise you , your brain is beyond repair . Go away and top yourself so you can be with your imaginary friend in the sky you total spastic.
I work on jet engines and I regularly deal with tolerances of +/- 0.001
I travel on jet engines and I regularly enjoy tolarences of +/- 0.001
@@lomdonsreets5350 I have slept in one and enjoyed the tolerances as well.
Even street engines can have those tolerances. Particularly in the bearing journals.
Jet engines have metal crystal growth bias to minimize clearance. I wonder if F1 materials use this or the temps aren't that extreme
@@frederf3227 crystal domains are an issue particularly in Jet turbine sections because of creep. The spinning blades want to get longer as due to centripetal g loading. ICEs don't have that level of force. (200g vs 20,000g)
Easy answer precision in the metallurgy and machining.
How are the pistons fitted when building? Thank you for an interesting video.
Did anyone else think this was a Donut Media video at first when they clicked on it
Yeah like the thumbnail of money pit series
Lol.. yup
People meet what they love and deserve
0.15 mm is actually closer to 6 thou
Yeah, I was looking to see if anyone else noticed this.
Yep, I think they missed that! Even though, even 6 thou seems a bit on the large side, I think.
@@tomthumb3085 yeah I noticed that too, I would think a close fit for that diameter is like .03-0.04 mm
He is confused on imperial measurements.. thinks a "tenth" is 1/10 of an inch.. Noooooo... it is 1/10 of 1/1000 of an inch. Not knowing the terms used when he looked things up, created an error of 1000 times
Yeah 0.0055" can be a common gap on 2618 aluminum pistons. 4032 aluminum with 12% silicon will expand less and be around 0.0040 depending on coatings on both. If these are built seized then they at most would have that clearance when hot and have negative clearance when cold. This does have me wondering what my clearance is at temp as I only check it cold. Have to look into that next week.
I think a video on assembly of an F1 engine would be fascinating. Am I right in thinking that inserting the pistons would have to be done by heating the block?
No. They freeze the piston.
That means during engine assembly, the block also needs to be heated. They probably use special torque plates along with other components that permit circulation of oil and coolant through the block during assembly.
No. They freeze the piston.
2:52 is credited to project farm,
its amazing how many people have stolen that video.
Fair use my dude
@M P No, PF actually made the polycarbonate cylinder head for a lawnmower engine and used it to film the combustion of various different types of fuels over several videos.
There are tens of stolen clips in his video. Terrible.
If you are saying that that clip is actually from a Project Farm video, it isn't. PF does have similar clips, but the source for this one is easily found on Warped Perception's page.
@@ctsean the idea not the actual footage
0.3 kg * 200 (g) = 60 kg for each piston... not 600
jup
x9.81 for gravity. F=MA with acceleration in m/s
@@AmNeSiA98750 so in space there will be no forces acting between pistons and rods if we take same engine and rev it in same way? so how gyroscopes work in space? Or you don't know the difference between mass and weight.
the only channel where I don't mind checking out the link in description.
Very good information 👍
Way over priced simply due to the application and budget of F1 teams. I used to work in the tool and die industry building molds for plastic parts. Some plastic flows very easily when in a molten state during the injection molding process, so areas where two components come together in order to stop the plastic from flowing (called a shut off area) need to be precision machined. The tolerances in these areas are +.000/-.003 mm and we could hold that tolerance with relative ease.
For example, if you have a pair of sunglasses, the two mold inserts that make the concave and convex shape of the lens are machined to the tolerance above in regards to the diameter of the insert. The radius of the concave and convex surface are machined using a process call "diamond turning" which is a highly accurate process of machining a radius. That process could hold a tolerance of +/- .00013 mm. The cost of two of those inserts (a set) was around $10,000 USD. The physical size of these inserts are similar to a piston, however, they were made out of high grade 400 series stainless steel, and underwent special coating processes to help with the finish of the actual optical surface.
The estimated cost of these pistons is likely that high because teams need to justify the budgets they ask for, and are simply over priced. It's similar to how a government will spend $500 on a hammer that you can buy from a hardware store for $25! Also, if they were looking for true precision, they wouldn't leave the underside with a cast or forged finish, they would go in and machine that area which would help with a number of things including being able to produce a matched set of pistons in terms of mass and fit.
Finally, forged parts will be stronger than machined parts, and machined parts will be stronger than cast parts. It's all about the grain of the material (just like when you see someone break a plank of wood during a karate demonstration, rotate the plank 90 degrees, and he would have a much tougher time breaking it). Forging actually bends the material which allows for the grain of the material to follow the bend, with machined parts the grain remains as it is which makes any bent areas with a grain that no longer follow the bend, and with cast parts, well the grain is going every which way but uniform.
Very informative thanks 👍
One more thing to consider is that the hourly rate of engineers in F1 is double-triple than elsewhere but aerospace.
My vote is with Mike Puckett's view on this hideously high costing estimate. The greatest artistry with these unrealistically expensive pistons is the con artistry to justify that price. Mike I also have previous experience in aerospace engineering and some experience with precision molding dies so everything you raise here I am in agreement with.
This is video bogus, most F1 teams pistons are now printed, (LMF) even the pistons we now use in hydraulic lifts are printed. Fine metal powder/dust is laser bonded, micron by micron layer at a time under pressure.
First time I've seen a sketch in a F1 related video with GD&T symbology.
Thats a really excellent vidwo, and the pistons are obviously some of the best in the world for that application.
But theyre only worth that kind of money to a handfull of people.
God, I love your videos! I only wish teachers in high school and college would be that passionate and amazing to deliver their knowledge!
If the pistons are siezed when cold, how do they assemble the engine? Do they have to heat the block to put the pistons in?
@M P well its not. The tolerances are that fine. The tolarances are normally found in air craft
@@christycullen2355 in piston engines in aircraft? I think not. Same as road cars.
Most metal's expand when heated above Ambient temperature. Plus most metal's contract when temperatures get lower than ambient temperature. I'm thinking some parts will go in the freezer and some will go in the oven, fore assembly.
@M P same principle applies..
Forget it, the piston has allways a smaller diameter than the block. The piston heats up much to higher temps than the block, so it expands more. This guy (61) has no clue what he is talking about.
2:51 the little-known F1 side valve.
That’s a lawn-mower engine.
@@Kimulstein No, pretty sure it's a side-valve F1 car. It beat last year's horse-drawn F1 car.
@@allenhanford ua-cam.com/video/jdW1t8r8qYc/v-deo.html
@@Kimulstein ua-cam.com/video/tXel6mxCSpc/v-deo.html
This guy's transitions are on point
If you've ever seen that video about Cosworth and the Beatrice/ Haas team building a turbo engine using fully old school methods like using a wooden pattern for the block, it's amazing how much technology is used these days. The fancy machines were around in the 80's, but out of reach to most F1 teams.....and weirdly, the new Haas F1 team, completely unrelated to the 80's team, is owned by a company that makes these machines.
I like this video, Im a precision machinist and I find it very difficult to explain to people why precise machined components are so much more than the junk we see from china.
People say things along the lines of "I wouldnt pay £500 for that part, you can get one from china for £10"
But if you know engineering you know why it costs so much more for precise UK machined components and why chinese stuff is so cheap.
The real reason is that you are not making thousands of the same part. You need to understand that.