A Deep Dive into Ephesians 5 - Why Hierarchy in Marriage Doesn't Work - Episode 166
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- Things Mentioned in the Podcast:
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Thank you so much for explaining this. We, as women, were wrongly told that we needed a man to have a close relationship with God. Some churches refer to having a male authority as a “covering.” They (erroneously) teach that a woman’s husband is her covering. If she is single, her father or a father figure (maybe her pastor) is her covering. NONE of that is scriptural. I pray for the day when women will stop being seen as less worthy of hearing from God than men.
Yup! And the idea of a woman, being an adult and having to _still_ answer to her father? That teaches adult women to remain in a childlike mindset. NOT GOOD. This was my story and it not only prepped me to marry an abuser but it also took 41 years to actually feel like an adult! 😢
@@starlingswallow I’m sorry that happened to you. I pray more women learn that they can stand on their own two feet once they become adults. I’m glad you are free from that abuser.
You can pray until you turn green, as Gen 3:16 already foretold that man will rule over woman, and this is something you can see in every culture throughout all times. And it therefore will probably be like this until the end of this planet. :-/
@@user-ib6hs8js2i nah, that was a consequence of sin. It was for freedom that he set us free❤
@@user-ib6hs8js2i So why? What is wrong with men? It's not God's plan.
Wow. Thank you SO much. You have helped me immensely over the past two years. I left a religiously abusive marriage and have been trying to reconstruct my faith. Trying to figure out what the Bible really means. Because Jesus loved and cared for women. Abuse is not ok.
Thank you so much for your content. I’ve watched several of your videos. I am a man, but I really love how you speak out against the misuse of these verses and the Gothard-style teachings. Gothard was mentioned regularly in the church I grew up in, but my church was not cultish or deep into the lifestyle he promoted. There were a handful of families who homeschooled, but it wasn’t pushed. I love your balanced approach. A Godly marriage is one where the husband and wife submit to each other. My wife wants me to be a spiritual leader, and I do my best to be that, but there are many times when she is the one who reminds me of what God would want me to do. My wife is a treasure, and she definitely doesn’t need my oversight or my approval. Your videos help me to make sure I keep myself in check in how I treat her and respect her.
Thank you so so much for this message. I come from an abusive family situation. Being expected to submit to a man in marriage without recognizing the strong personality I have, or the past trauma and betrayal I have been through from the people who weren't supposed to lie to me or keep me captive to their parent made image of me, is such a scary thing for me to even think about. Realizing that a church is supposed to see us all as God created us to be. Instead of using a book that says women are sex objects and men are success objects. Is TERRIFYING. Being told by the pastor in the pulpit to have a bunch of kids. When i don't even know if I can have any. Is so disheartening and makes each woman who struggles with sex or infertility absolutely invisible. I am sooo thankful for voices like yours. That break down the walls of shame and lies. That treat women as equal and loved by God. Thank you.
This has been one of my favorite passages for a long time, because it's absolutely beautiful with a proper Christological understanding. Thank you for highlighting it.
I was at Urbana 87! I actually walked out of a seminar that might have been the woman you referred to, because I was so busy drinking the hierarchy KoolAid at the time that I couldn’t even handle the freedom. Oh my. You might even have watched me leave… 😆
Anyway, I am so grateful that the Lord has been so faithful to lead me into more and more freedom from that garbage.
And a book I have loved and that I think you will also love is John Temple Bristow’s “What Paul Really Said about Women: The Apostle’s Liberating Views about Equality.” Look it up, you’ll love it!
Oh, isn't that funny? I wonder if it was the same talk!
Yes! It's a really good book.
Sheila, I appreciate you so much! Also, thank you for helping me get a good grade on my marriage paper for my marriage class in grad school!🤗
Sheila your open hearted vulnerability touches my heart so deeply! You so perfectly express the sounding we received as little girls from people in our families who were brainwashed into believing that men should be in charge of everything. It led to choosing men who we looked to as protectors but didn’t tell us who would protect us from our “protectors” when God didn’t seem to.😢
Ugh. This made me cry. Thank you so much for making this video. I’ve been saying these things for years, but the menfolk just won’t listen to us deceived daughters of Eve 😢
This is your best content yet! I was raised in a patriarchal system and you have systematically broken down those strongholds and continue to do so in ways that are changing my family dynamic in amazing, healing ways. I have five daughters that I’m gifting this wisdom to with the complete support of my husband as we partner forward towards a better understanding of Christ’s heart. Bless you for being a mouthpiece for truth. ❤
I was listening to this in the car and had to hold back the tears so that I could still see to drive. So much of your first half is so very relatable. I don't even have words to describe how meaningful this podcast is to me.
Thank you so much for your sharing. I am against bad feminists who promote abortion, homosexuality, and goddess worship. Although I am a male, i am for good feminism, the movement of justice for women against all kinds of abuse, violence, and prejudice. I also strongly trust in the authority of the Bible as the word inspired by God. I am so glad that I can find ways to integrate my faith in the Bible and good feminism through the help of people like you. You helped me a lot to understand Ephesians 5 correctly. However I still have some questions about Colossians 3:18 and 1Peter 3:1. I will also appreciate you if I can know your opinion about naming God the mother. May God bless you.
I find myself in your words. As a woman describing this place where I'm defending biblical values and human rights. God the mother is a very warming description that always calms me. God bless
God the mother?? ? ?
What you say "promote abortion," is not women saying "yay, yay abortion." It's women standing up for healthcare for women. Look at the horrible situations many women are now in after they have miscarriages or if their body has not miscarried, yet that baby is not alive. Also, very few feminists promote goddess worship. That was something blown out of proportion by religious conservatives who follow the sinful male-entitlement mentality.
You do the best exegesis of Ephesians 5 I have ever heard. You are saying all the things that I have taken years to figure out from Ephesians because of all the wrong teaching out there. And I’ve never heard a preacher point out that Ephesians five is not written to husbands, it is written to a very very small group of husbands, that is husbands who are Saints, who are faithful, (and that means obedient, and submitted to responsibility), who happen to be husbands!
That’s from Ephesians 1.1, which means a husband who is not a saint who is faithful, shouldn’t be reading Ephesians because he’s reading someone else’s mail. And a husband who is a saint who is faithful, (Ephesians 1.1), Is an obedient, responsible person who surely knows that first Corinthian 16.16 tells husbands to submit, not only to their own wives, but to other men’s wives, in fact it says “ Brothers we urge you to submit to them, and to everyone who is devoted to the ministry and labors at it”!
And in your reference to husbands washing their wives, as Christ did… That should simply bring to mind Jesus on his knees offering, yes I said offering…. To wash his brides feet!
"Reading someone else's mail" mind blowing way of phrasing this! 🤯
That's a great way to help explain things to Bible literalists. I'm gonna try to remember this!
I too was traumatized by a conservative church (Presbyterian Church of America) that oh-so-conveniently forgot Ephesians 5:21 and went right to 5:22, wives submit, and man is the head. To them, this was all about control and authority, and the fact that Christ didn't talk about this didn't matter because, you know, Paul! Anyway, 16-year old me knew this wasn't right. Through God's grace, I found egalitarian sources, and they helped immensely, so it pains me to see women still in spiritual bondage. Recently, a secular video helped me understand more about submission and leadership. It explained how women (in general) receive and support while good men are designed to carry out acts of service to help others, and they gain pleasure from this. So, under the umbrella of equality (mutual submission as commanded in 5:21), wives receive and support while husbands carry out acts of service as Christ cares for the church. There's no hierarchy, no who make decisions, etc. It's just an example of Christ's command to love one another because everything has to go back to Christ's teachings. Husbands and wives are like a salt and pepper shaker set: one is not over the other, each is different and good on their own, but they're best when used together.
Thank you for explaining this so well!
❤ excellent. Her study on Ephesians starts at 31:46
Sheila, this particular episode is wonderful! I was in a 14 year long marriage to a covert narcissist abuser who claimed he was a Christian to rope me in and trap me. It worked for a while. My upbringing in the church and watching this patriarchal dynamic in my own parents marriage set me up on a silver platter to marry an abuser. I am almost 5 years out and God has blessed me with the most amazing husband! Ever since he was a little kid he wanted an equal partner in marriage, and it was hard for him because the people of his church growing up railed against this idea! He held to it tightly. Within our marriage we are equals, we are a team! I wish I could explain in words how incredibly beautiful it is, how incredibly all inspiring it is! It is brought both of us so much closer to God. I am in awe of God every single day, no joke. We want to personally thank you for your channel and all of the other people who are leading this revolution against the patriarchy in our society and especially our churches. Sheila, God is moving in mighty ways! Thank you for being obedient to his call in regard to all of the things that you address and your episodes, in your books and on your social media platforms, as well as the other people that have joined you and join together to fight this incredible fight. Too many people are suffering needlessly because of people in authority wanting complete control, wanting to be God!😢 We pray for you and all of the people who are heading up this tidal wave of change❤
I can relate to the agony of loving and wanting God, but believing he thinks less of me because of my gender😭😭😭
I'm sorry you were ever taught that! I hope you've been able to leave that teaching behind. It's so wrong.
Praise God, I have! I grew up in a Plain community and thought I was escaping toxic thinking when I left as a young adult. However I encountered it in the evangelical church but did not know any better. After an abusive 4 yr marriage God opened my eyes bit by bit to understand how poisonous this thinking can be.
Eight years later he brought me an incredible husband, love, and companion with whom I share an incredible equally balanced relationship!❤️
Yep, I went through that thanks to my teen years spent in a Presbyterian Church of America church.
Thank you for this! And the sound is so much better!
and that just because Paul called women his co workers doesnt mean they were teaching or preaching, despite still doing things to help promote the gospel- arguments of others
On that note of Evangelicalism looking way too much like Iranian Islamic authorities, I remember a sermon from Alistair Begg where he talked about Islam and the full body coverings the women wear. He talked about how he would prefer brides in Christianity wear the same thing, so the husband can only see the eyes because it is where the soul is, so they are not distracted by the body. I might be paraphrasing because I heard it a while ago, but I know the sermon was one of his marriage sermons :(
I think sense, knowing his sermons, he was probably advocating for a man to stop sexualizing women and to see her as a person through the “eyes of her soul”
"When it (controlling abuse) happens they (religious women) can't get out because they can't see the difference."
So so true for me. Thanks for seeing and understanding this.
I'm a 70+year old woman. I was born into a very conservative Southern Baptist Family. Yes, it's true that women could not preach or hold leadership positions in the church, but this was never discussed or preached about. Growing up, I never heard a sermon preached about women being submissive to their husbands or any of the complementatian stuff that we hear today. It just seemed to be the natural order of things that because most husbands worked and wives stayed home, that the man was thought of as the head of the home and the woman was considered the heart of the home, a sensible partnership. In the early 80s, complementarianism began creeping in with its emphasis on strict gender roles. It's my opinion that women were demonstrating their competence in the pulpit, in running their homes, and in the professional world. This was all a huge threat to men who, up till then, had most of the power. People in power don't like to share it or give it away, so this whole complementarian dogma was invented to keep women in their traditional place, with the men in charge.
but the argument for some is that they cant teach in a corporate setting, or that she was with her husband otherwise Pricilla wouldn't have taught Apollo's by herself. I guess anyone can find what they want in the scriptures to believe.
Thanks so much for sharing this, Sheila.
Thank you so much for this great summary!
You are playing that role, praise Jesus!
Sheila, thank you for your vulnerability. I was crying with you.
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith-that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen."
♥🙏
Submit yourselves one to another, in the fear of God.
Ephesians 5:21
Yikes. Read Ephesians 5 and then hear her say that marital success depends on the husband and wife being equals with no hierarchy or authority. Number 1. She’s using a secular definition of equality 🟰 as her basis of success. 2. She’s clearly dealing with church hurt and PTSD-she’s very “triggered” by issues surrounding women’s rights to the point that she’s excessively emotional, even about oppression within another religion (that has nothing to do with Biblical hierarchy) yet she’s relating to it because that’s what her church trauma resembled. -She’s reacting to the hurt by throwing our Biblical hierarchy in favor of a modern version of equality that feels safer to her.
3. There is no place in Scripture where Biblical hierarchy eliminates a woman’s ability to hear from God or have her own personal revelation from Him. Her experience in her church is discoloring Biblical hierarchy and making it into something God never intended. She needs to return to God’s intended design rather than creating her own progressive version of it that feels safer. Trauma can absolutely send people swinging from one extreme to another. The truth is not in the extremes.
You're reading Ephesians through the lenses of the sinful world of control instead of through the lenses of Christ. Sheila's interpretation agrees with Christ's command to love one another. Paul did not have the authority to create doctrine; only Christ can do that. Paul could give examples of Christ's teachings, as he did here. Show me where Christ commanded husbands to be over their wives in hierarchy, and I'll go along with your interpretation. Until then, you need to work on your empathy because your harshness discredits what you say.
I am so thrilled to subscribe and share.
This is excellent. It happened to me. I came to the Lord in Thailand, through signs visions and the Word. He was speaking to me directly. As soon as I associated with the church they tried to insert their doctrine against what the Lord had done in my life. They told me it was not true. I'd gone from death to life and the Bible came alive. I came alive to God. I believed them because I was a babe in the Lord. Listening to you, Ive come back to what the Lord really did and how my communion with Him needs to be restored as it was when I was first saved.
Thank you so much. X
I was in a sola scrptura church, the church of Christ, and it was probably the most hateful period of my entire life. Draw your own conclusions
My first thought is where does she get the idea that Biblical male leadership in the church or home equates to women not hearing from God, because I agree that that notion is both disturbing and unBiblical. That would be kind of like saying that the senator or the vice president are not as smart as the President, when the structure itself does not imply that. To me, the big difference is that that one man is held RESPONSIBLE for outcomes more than another underneath him. The CEO will take responsibility for the failures of the company even if they aren’t direct reflections on his work. These men will take the brunt of the criticism or whatever is coming at them. Men are designed a little differently hormonally and physically and emotionally, and part of that is a protector role. Women on contraception are now choosing softer men because their contraception places them in a hormonal state that values different traits!..it’s all very interesting.
Well, first believe women when they say that they thought that there was a barrier between them and God because of their gender. This is a belief that is popular in Gothard churches. Also, the idea that the husband is more responsible to God than the wife is is not Biblical.
Thank you soo much for this video!
I’m just very unfamiliar with these ideas that the men in a church or a husband are supposed to be a women’s mediator, and I grew up in a church that would fall into the real, healthy complementarian category. What she’s describing is really really messed up. I can see why she’s fleeing from any idea of hierarchy and why she feels she has to redefine it into something softer and less threatening. But her soft, progressive interpretation of scripture is still wrong, and it’s just as dangerous as the abusive side. We cannot twist the Word to fit our sensibilities.
Amen!
11: 35 context of why she stayed with a man who abused her i knew it was traceable to Christian emphasise women getting married and having a mans attention
Restart at 38:00
If you have a link to the book you referenced, can you please share it?
I added the links to the description on the video! Sorry about that.
@@SheilaWrayGregoire thank you! 😊 You and your family are a blessing!
13:10
I'm wrestling with this currently. I know it says husband is the head, but it's prefaced as how Christ is head of the church/body. Clearly Christ is in authority over the church/body as the head? If women are the body, how can you say the head isn't in a position of authority but merely unity? While yes, we are unified in Christ, he's still in authority over us as the head? I'm really really struggling with this. Please help.
Yes, Christ is in authority, but he is also in unity with the church. And the point that is being made in the passage is about unity, not authority. The passage is not saying that husbands are as Christ to their wives in every single way that Christ was to the church; the passage is saying that husbands are to wives as Christ is to the church in a SPECIFIC way that is mentioned--sacrificial service and unity. Hope that helps!
I don’t agree 100%, it is more than just sacrificial service and Unity. Mike Winger did a good exegete of this passage that I would recommend if you are still struggling.
ua-cam.com/video/H8PFVZgIQ2w/v-deo.html
Terran Williams did an awesome job responding to Mike Winger’s women series. I’d check that out right after Mike Winger.
@@TheBigJhonka Unfortunately, Mike Winger is very into promoting male ego/male entitlement. The Biblical passage notes what a man's headship is: to love and make holy. There's no "man is the boss" or who gets the final decision in there. All of these passages are Paul's giving one example of how to carry out Christ's command to love one another. Narcissistic men, who unfortunately dominate evangelicalism, cannot accept this.
I found you. I just did the Winger study too. Whoo!-that was intense but eye opening.
I have not found one person who teaches that husbands complete their wife’s salvation. This is absurd
I've heard it.
I thought the same thing. I see that she’s hurt and is swinging from one extreme to another
Gothard.
Thanks for helping women
U.S. Marine 1963-1867 male
Shame on you men want-to-bes
I feel so badly for the lie taught that women need men in order to be close to God - that they are their "spiritual leaders". I don't believe this at all. I believe we as women are given an amazing role to play that illustrates the love and trust a believer has in Jesus. She lives out trust in her husband as her provider and leader - just as Christ provides for all our needs. This is showing great faith in Jesus. Her example is a far greater testimony than any words or sermon could ever be.
You wrote “she lives out trust IN her husband AS her provider and leader”… Do you mean to say “she lives out trust AS her husband IS her provider and leader”?
We've got to get away from this worldly, sinful idea of the wife being led. A woman is an adult and needs no leader.
Just a feminist repackaging of the scriptures. What makes this teachings any different than the world?
That's your reply? An ad hominem attack rather than any actual arguments. You know, sometimes the world gets things right. The world ended slavery before the Southern Baptist Church did, for instance. And the SBC church didn't want to go along with "the world." The question is not are we different from the world; the question is are we following Christ. And sometimes the world is following Christ much more closely than many of those who claim His name.
@@SheilaWrayGregoire SBC were/are not the only "Christians". I do believe the Quakers, some puritans were agaisnt slavery. Abolitionism was not a secular endeavor
@@SheilaWrayGregoire while I don’t agree that this is “just a feminist repackaging” like jrod7290 says, I think we as Christians need to be careful thinking we are somehow more enlightened than our historical brethren. Just as the SBC’s views were colored by the social acceptance of slavery, so to our views can be colored by the current days’ hot topics.
I have read several of your books and I love what you write. When I started watching your videos I was struck a little bit by your and Keith’s take on hierarchy and authority.
I understand that you have a strong connection between authority and abuse. Keith also seemed to imply in one of his videos (at least in the title) that hierarchy leads to abuse. It seems like you reject most ideas of hierarchy and authority as it can lead to abuse, is that a fair statement?
I wonder if you aren’t throwing the baby out with the bath water however. While we are here, on this imperfect sinful earth, God has ordained that some people will be in authority(Romans 13). Not to say that He ordained all people in authority (Hosea 8), but God does ordain some hierarchies, and it is very hard to read Ephesians 5 and not see that there is authority ordained by God in marriage.
UA-cam comments can be so mean, I hope I do not come across that way. I would love the opportunity to communicate with you and/or Keith, and understand your points better.
Think about this: the sinful male ego has persecuted women in all societies for all time (sorry, it's history). The church brought that into the body and reads the Bible through that sinful, worldly influence and sees hierarchy (with the men on top, naturally) when it's really about loving one another as Christ commands.
@@TheBigJhonka And be careful assuming that people way back when knew more than we do.
This is so bad. This is harmful, false teaching. So many disjointed thoughts.
First, God doesn’t speak to Women less just because we are not the authorities of the home and Church. Your monologue on that makes no logical sense as a conclusion of not hearing from God in the same way men would- did you miss the Prophetesses of the OT and NT? Just because you felt a certain way, doesn’t mean the Bible supports your misguided feelings.
Next, as the Father is the head of the Son, so men are the head of the church and family. One is not greater than the other, it is an office. There is no greater gifts or favoritism, it is order.
Also, you keep stating that the verb “submit” is not in the Greek in the second usage- correct, it doesn’t say “wives submit to husbands”, it says “submit to one another, Wives TO your husbands…” Your semantics are disgraceful and misleading.
Yes, it does mean submit, because it is a repetition of the previous use of submit. You completely left that out.
Finally, before I had to turn it off out of disgust, the Bible absolutely calls men to wash their wives in the word for sanctification. You should know, claiming to be a teacher, salvation and sanctification are completely different. Salvation is a one time act, sanctification is life long process through which all believers grow closer to God through the Word, church, prayer, Christian community, etc. Husbands should absolutely be leading the charge for their wives and children in reading God’s word to them and over them. Why are you mixing meanings and teaching as if the Bible is calling men to bring salvation to their wives?
This teaching, as well as numerous of your podcast episodes, are cultural feminism under the auspices of Christianity.
Did you know that the Greek word for "head" does not mean authority? There is a Greek word for head that means authority, and that's not the word that Paul uses. He uses the word that refers to unity. God the Father is not in authority over Jesus; that is called the Eternal Subordination of the Son heresy. As for the verb submit, women are to submit IN THE SAME WAY that all believers submit to one another. It is not about authority, it is about service, as shown in Matthew 20:25-28 and Philippians 2. I'm so sorry that you see the Christian life as one about authority rather than about service. Have you watched Shiny Happy People yet? They go into the ramifications of this really well!
please make no further assumptions. You have no idea what Jesus has saved me out of. I assure you I serve Christ out of love, but also submit to the order structures clearly outlined in the NT. You are focusing solely on this passage to the neglect of 1 Corinthians 11, 1 Timothy 3. It is servant leadership, not authoritarianism as you paint headship in the home to be. Also , submitting to biblical order and headship does not make a person subject to IBPL. These are terrible red herring ways to not address my points. I am not going to further engage and bring disgrace upon the bride of Christ in a public forum, but I could not stomach your misleading teachings.
@@JessicaStarks1 I'm sorry that you feel that women aren't free to serve God as the Spirit wills! I know you won't be engaging further, but for those reading, if you have questions like Jessica's, I highly recommend Marg Mowczko's blog at margmowczko.com, or please read Julie Coleman's book On Purpose, or Philip Payne's book The Bible vs. Biblical Womanhood! All of these questions are answered, and show that a more biblical way of looking at genders is to see the Spirit as the starting point, and service and humility as the motivating factor. We are to live Jesus-centered lives, not husband-centered lives. And the Spirit points us all, men and women, to Jesus! We don't need any other mediator.
@@SheilaWrayGregoireagain, please don’t use strawmen arguments on me. Why I will not further engage is because face to face dialogue is best and Biblical- Matthew 18.
I absolutely know women are free to serve God as the Spirit wills- I also know the Holy Spirit will not lead outside of Scripture, and not encourage others to do the same.
@@JessicaStarks1. Have you studied and read any of the books shelia suggested? If so, what did you conclude?
You referenced Robin someone. I couldn't catch the name.
Robin Thinks! That's the name of her substack I believe.
If you like this episode you will love a documentary called Third Adam 3. It brilliantly reveals what this entire episode is about. God Bless!
That's a HUGE stretch and I think you missed the entire point here. Sad.
And can you share in what way you are referring…?…before i do a bunch of reading at your recommendation?
I mean I think Sheila brilliantly reveals what the episode is about… Sooo… any clues into what this other writing brilliantly reveals in addition to what Sheila has already shared? I found the best thing is to listen to her episodes again a second time!
John Turley you misled me! I was actually deceived, and I looked up the third Adam 3.
It contradicts the truth from God‘s Word that Sheila presents. Sheila correctly shares that Ephesians is not about authority, it’s about responsibility! Nowhere does it say or imply that a husband has authority because he’s the husband, because Ephesians is not written to husbands, it’s written to saints, who are faithful, and obedient, and submit to responsibility, who happen to be husbands. They are not given authority by their wives because they are husbands, but because they are faithful and obedient husbands, and their wife, when she sees that, can sometimes have the faith and freedom to then choose submit/support them, just as husbands submit to their wives, and other men’s wives who have devoted themselves to the ministry in first Corinthians 16.16. Read one verse, Ephesians 1.1, Before you allow the whole book to be taken out of context!
So sad…
Firstly, I cannot express how sorry I am that you felt hurt by your Church and feel less than. All are created in the image of God, and He cares for everyone equally as the creator, and we should aspire to treat everyone as of equal worth to God.
There is a false equivalency in your words however. You hold to an idea that authority means more perfect access to God, or is better in some way. This is a terrible belief, easily refuted throughout scripture. God consistently speaks to and uses people in all walks of life whether king or child or female or male, and blesses the poor and meek. You mentioned Zipporah and Deborah and Mary as being used by God - but those women didn’t have authority! In fact they were under others’ authority!
God doesn’t care about your power or authority. At 20:19 you say “God wants to use His daughters” as if they need authority to be used by God. Can you clarify your thoughts there?
You state at 16:45 this false equivalency with the statement “God put me in authority and I know what is best for you.” The correct statement should be “God put me in authority and I am ultimately responsible for this decision for our family.” A husband’s authority doesn’t mean closer to God or a go-between - Jesus the Son of Man is the high priest, not any other man. You say as much at 24:54! Women can pray and be as close to God as men can - authority has nothing to do with it. But when it comes to the family there cannot be two ultimate authorities, practically speaking. When disagreement occurs there can be compromises, but there has to be a structure in place to decide responsibility.
At 21:35 you ask “How are women supposed to feel heard if ultimately he (husband) makes the decision?” Feeling heard is not a good goal. Anyone can be heard, but not necessarily feel heard. Do you also not feel heard when you pray to God and He answers your prayers with a “no, that isn’t My plan?”.
You mention that when you aren’t allowed to be heard you slowly stop thinking. That puts the onus of responsibility for your thoughts on someone else. No one can take away your thoughts without your consent.
I obviously can’t speak to your friend not feeling happy and feeling “erased as a person.” All I can say is, happiness is not the goal, nor is being your own person. That is what got us into this sin mess in the first place. We will truly be ourselves when we submit to and are carried along by God.
24:01 “The fundamentalist Christians look way more like Iran than they do like Jesus. Because the aim is the same: to control people.” Wow, that is quite a statement. You are assuming quite a lot of motive there. Now I do agree that some churches do this, but I would like to hear more how you think that is accurate for all fundamentalists. Maybe I don’t have the same definition of fundamentalists.
24:30-24:58 Amen!
the reason women want to feel heard by their husbands is because marriage is about intimacy. In our survey, when men make the final decisions in a marriage, the divorce rate increases 7.4 times. Women's marital satisfaction plummets (as does men's). John Gottman's research found the same thing--an 81% chance of divorce. Quite simply, authority in marriage doesn't work. And it calls for women to follow their husbands rather than Jesus. It's putting an idol and a mediator between her and God.
“the reason women want to feel heard by their husbands is because marriage is about intimacy.” 100% agree, that’s intimacy 101.
“In our survey, when men make the final decisions in a marriage, the divorce rate increases 7.4 times.” How did you define final decisions in your survey? Because someone always makes a final decision when there is disagreement, by definition.
“Final decision” authority has little to do with feeling heard or respected. Listening, discussion, consideration, compromise when possible, affirmation of trust, demonstrating understanding, all make someone feel heard. That promotes intimacy - even if ultimately the decision is not what they recommend.
Another note - authority can and should be delegated. While my boss at work has “final decision”, she has delegated to me the authority to make certain decisions, and I feel heard/trusted. The same goes for a complementarian marriage.
“And it calls for women to follow their husbands rather than Jesus. It's putting an idol and a mediator between her and God.” Authority itself doesn’t “call” for anything, God alone “calls”. We are “called” to be under the government’s authority - does this mean the government is an idol? No! Because there is a hierarchy where we submit to God, and then to the people in positions of authority EXCEPT where they contradict God. This is a critical exception, and it is the major difference between Complementarian and Biblical Patriarchy.
@@TheBigJhonka I'm sorry, but decision-making and who the boss is simply isn't in there. Ephesians is all about carrying out Christ's command to love one another. The conservative church with its emphasis on the sinful, worldly male entitlement, reads something in there that is not in there. Ask the Holy Spirit to give you guidance on this.
This is the best rebuttal by far and yes, I listened to the whole video and read all the other comments. I can totally relate to Sheila's valid feelings of being made to feel like a lesser person which I also experienced in my upbringing in the church, l learned that most of my perception was anecdotal and not categorically true. Ephesians 5 designates gender roles and hierarchy based on accountability, NOT on earthly power. Example: the command of honor your father and mother is not followed by if they..... The two most important things to do when reading the Bible is to include the entire book in your understanding and to ask how it points to The Way - Jesus. An important part of the topic of gender roles, hierarchy, and personal accountability for those roles is Genesis 2 and 3. God holds men more accountable in Gen 3 and in Eph 5. This is the "downside" of being male and is not "equal", of course it is what we under Adam, who led us out Eden, deserve. Thank God for the second Adam, Jesus who lead all of us back into Eden. Jesus' sacrifice was equal, by grace, for all who accept it. But we will be judged individually and rewarded individually. I also find it interesting that Sheila never mentions that the 12 apostles were men.
@@TheBigJhonkaExcellent reply. I find that the research questions seem to allow for anecdotal responses.
There needs to be a hierarchy in all things otherwise chaos ensues.
Just as the Son of Man is the King of His Kingdom and we all are His subjects so the Man is put as the Head of the union.
You're making a huge statement with no evidence. The fact that 78.9% of married couples don't have a hierarchy, and actually make decisions together, and actually do better than those with a hierarchy, would say that you're wrong. Think about friendships--do you have a hierarchy? Think about how elder's boards make decisions based on unanimity, because they rely on the Holy Spirit. What you're saying is taught by many churches, but it's simply demonstrably wrong. Most couples don't have hierarchy, and they're happy. I hope you can experience that one day.
Something's really wrong if two adults can't work together and manage their lives together. It's called being mature adults.