Thank you so much for this. I had a conversation with a member of a complementarian church. I said I could no longer attend because of this stance, just based on my own feelings!! So I started researching and saw that Gk used in 1 Tim 2, is gender neutral, as you point out. Then I read that the subjugation of women in the church is a recent introduction, ie Gruden and Piper, in the 80s. Then the surge of sexual abuse in some churches, but women being silent.. about it. I have some personal experience of male abuse related to this subjugation teaching, and so now I've decided to set out to find out the facts of this teaching!!! It's infiltrated the church everywhere. So, thank you so much for addressing this.
Oh..... We were missionaries in Japan. UK Christians. A Japanese pastor asked me, a woman, to lead an outreach weekend to the youth. We were in Iwanaii, Hokkaido. The weekend was a great success. Then, the day after, a Lutheran pastor walked into our little outreach coffee shop and pronounced, "women should be silent". I was a bit confused about this.... at that time being unaware of this strong teaching in the USA church. As I came across this authority issue more and more and saw how hurtful and destructive it is, yet it is taught on a regular basis.
I just finished Beth Allison Barr's book and Amazon suggested Dr. Payne's book...with a link to this video. Thank you for posting. I'm looking forward to reading this book.
I no longer use the term "biblical inerrancy" to describe my view of Scripture. It's not because I don't view Scripture as inspired and authoritative, I've just come to realize that "inerrancy" usually refers to a preferred translation and understanding of Scripture that must not be questioned, even if evidence within and outside of the best manuscripts suggests otherwise. And anyway, not everything in the Bible is meant to be taken literally, or else the simple assertion that "orchid seeds are smaller than mustard seeds" would become heresy.
Well put! I grew up learning that the Bible was divinely inspired to be understood metaphorically and that those relying on specific fundamentalist texts depended upon the translation, many of which were inaccurate and/or biased. I love how Philip Payne learned his understanding of religious texts over his lifetime which I"m sure included those of other faith traditions as well for enhanced understanding.
This is such a great interview! Dr. Payne explains these concepts and verses so well. I'm looking forward to reading his new book. Sheila, I really enjoy the podcast episodes when you interview guests.
I love the point that he is trying to uphold the inerrancy of the Bible-that the complementarian stance makes the Bible double back on itself. We need more Greek scholars.
Curious about your view of inerrancy given the multiple variations in the manuscripts even the earliest. If we don't had a definitive set text from then, and then the translation issues where languages don't match, especially when dealing in concepts rather than definable nouns (apple, dog, cat etc) and then the distance from cultural idioms or 'in jokes' that don't make sense even a generation later. How can any current version in any language be inerrant?
If there is no division between female and male in Christ, shouldn’t we also treat each other in light of our equal standing in Christ? ( this is a rhetorical question).
I think that is an incredible point. I think the logic that follows, which is (there should be no gender roles or expectations in romantic relationships) is where Christian’s struggle with how much weight to give that scripture.
My Pastor said that the passage in regarding women speaking in church, had to do with that women typically sat in the back and couldn't hear and they would be constantly asking the person speaking to repeat themselves. That's why Paul is saying to ask their husbands when they get home. Do you know if that is true? The pastor was Rick Warren
Highly recommend reading Lucy Peppiatt’s ‘Rediscovering Scriptures Vision for Women.’ She covers that passage exceedingly well. Most sensible and logical exegesis of it I have ever come across!
I have also heard it in terms of the Jewish men would have had more religious training, and so understand references to the Hebrew Scriptures, that women would not, hence ask your questions at home to your husbands.
I don't understand. What does the husband is the source of the wife mean? Did the husband create the wife? Did the husband give birth to the wife? How is the husband the wife's source?
Can you be a parent without (at some point) a child? Can you (assuming heteronorms) be a husband without a wife? or a wife without a husband? So her status as a wife, rather than a daughter (given that possessive context at the time of the Bible) is sourced in her husband. Just a musing, no study behind it.
My understanding is that the 'man is the source' refers to Adam's side being the source for woman's creation in Genesis; women giving birth is the source for man's creation... the idea is that we are all from God, Paul is saying here that neither men nor women are 'first'. God shows no preference. Paul is refuting the Corinthian idea that males are privileged cause Adam came first
Thank you so much for this. I had a conversation with a member of a complementarian church. I said I could no longer attend because of this stance, just based on my own feelings!! So I started researching and saw that Gk used in 1 Tim 2, is gender neutral, as you point out. Then I read that the subjugation of women in the church is a recent introduction, ie Gruden and Piper, in the 80s. Then the surge of sexual abuse in some churches, but women being silent.. about it. I have some personal experience of male abuse related to this subjugation teaching, and so now I've decided to set out to find out the facts of this teaching!!! It's infiltrated the church everywhere. So, thank you so much for addressing this.
It's amazing how, once you start researching, the arguments for complementarianism fall apart!
Oh..... We were missionaries in Japan. UK Christians. A Japanese pastor asked me, a woman, to lead an outreach weekend to the youth. We were in Iwanaii, Hokkaido. The weekend was a great success. Then, the day after, a Lutheran pastor walked into our little outreach coffee shop and pronounced, "women should be silent". I was a bit confused about this.... at that time being unaware of this strong teaching in the USA church. As I came across this authority issue more and more and saw how hurtful and destructive it is, yet it is taught on a regular basis.
I just finished Beth Allison Barr's book and Amazon suggested Dr. Payne's book...with a link to this video. Thank you for posting. I'm looking forward to reading this book.
I no longer use the term "biblical inerrancy" to describe my view of Scripture. It's not because I don't view Scripture as inspired and authoritative, I've just come to realize that "inerrancy" usually refers to a preferred translation and understanding of Scripture that must not be questioned, even if evidence within and outside of the best manuscripts suggests otherwise.
And anyway, not everything in the Bible is meant to be taken literally, or else the simple assertion that "orchid seeds are smaller than mustard seeds" would become heresy.
Well put! I grew up learning that the Bible was divinely inspired to be understood metaphorically and that those relying on specific fundamentalist texts depended upon the translation, many of which were inaccurate and/or biased. I love how Philip Payne learned his understanding of religious texts over his lifetime which I"m sure included those of other faith traditions as well for enhanced understanding.
This is such a great interview! Dr. Payne explains these concepts and verses so well. I'm looking forward to reading his new book.
Sheila, I really enjoy the podcast episodes when you interview guests.
17:47 I appreciate Mr. Payne’s transparency and vulnerability at his confession regarding the submission of women.
I love the point that he is trying to uphold the inerrancy of the Bible-that the complementarian stance makes the Bible double back on itself. We need more Greek scholars.
Curious about your view of inerrancy given the multiple variations in the manuscripts even the earliest. If we don't had a definitive set text from then, and then the translation issues where languages don't match, especially when dealing in concepts rather than definable nouns (apple, dog, cat etc) and then the distance from cultural idioms or 'in jokes' that don't make sense even a generation later. How can any current version in any language be inerrant?
If there is no division between female and male in Christ, shouldn’t we also treat each other in light of our equal standing in Christ? ( this is a rhetorical question).
I think that is an incredible point.
I think the logic that follows, which is (there should be no gender roles or expectations in romantic relationships) is where Christian’s struggle with how much weight to give that scripture.
Also Acts 2 quoting Joel - the Spirit comes to men and women, old and young, the free and the slave. All to speak out.
@@sheltonbrown601 I certainly respect the struggle. What bothers me is the dogmatic insistence on the misogyny that was introduced in the 1980s!
Can't wait for part 2, keep up the good work!
My Pastor said that the passage in regarding women speaking in church, had to do with that women typically sat in the back and couldn't hear and they would be constantly asking the person speaking to repeat themselves. That's why Paul is saying to ask their husbands when they get home. Do you know if that is true? The pastor was Rick Warren
It’s true. The majority of biblical scholars agree that’s the correct interpretation of that passage.
Highly recommend reading Lucy Peppiatt’s ‘Rediscovering Scriptures Vision for Women.’ She covers that passage exceedingly well. Most sensible and logical exegesis of it I have ever come across!
I have also heard it in terms of the Jewish men would have had more religious training, and so understand references to the Hebrew Scriptures, that women would not, hence ask your questions at home to your husbands.
*Halfway through this video* Um YEAH I need this book!!!
Where do I get the book sheila mentioned in the beginning of this?
It's on Amazon 🥰
UA-cam has gotten really nuts. I got treated to a charming invitation by Harry Winston - not a favorite
Harry Winston the jeweler?
@@luckystoller6171 yes. I was baffled.
From UK - your intro, it is a big thing to mix up Oxford and Cambridge, centuries of academic rivalry 🙃
18:55 Great. Give us the list.
I don't understand. What does the husband is the source of the wife mean? Did the husband create the wife? Did the husband give birth to the wife? How is the husband the wife's source?
Can you be a parent without (at some point) a child? Can you (assuming heteronorms) be a husband without a wife? or a wife without a husband? So her status as a wife, rather than a daughter (given that possessive context at the time of the Bible) is sourced in her husband. Just a musing, no study behind it.
My understanding is that the 'man is the source' refers to Adam's side being the source for woman's creation in Genesis; women giving birth is the source for man's creation... the idea is that we are all from God, Paul is saying here that neither men nor women are 'first'. God shows no preference. Paul is refuting the Corinthian idea that males are privileged cause Adam came first
Is Galus the same person as Luke ?
If he said, "Galen" the answer is "no". Galen was a very famous medical writer born in 129 AD (so after Luke).
I can't find episode 2
ua-cam.com/video/ranckCYjt-Y/v-deo.html