What's the single greatest danger of covert narcissism?
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- Опубліковано 17 гру 2017
- What's the single greatest danger of covert narcissism?
www.drcraigmalkin.com/the-book
Calling someone a covert narcissist doesn’t-or at least *shouldn't*- imply that they’re any sneakier or more manipulative than the average narcissist. It also doesn’t have anything to do with hiding abusive behaviors (another widespread myth). There’s no evidence of any such pattern in clinical research (reports from mental health professionals) or social psychological research (the study of traits and personalities).
The term, covert narcissism (aka hypersensitive or vulnerable), was coined to capture the pattern in narcissists who aren’t loud, vain, chest-thumping braggarts but-as their partners discover soon enough-are just as arrogant and argumentative as people with the prouder, more outgoing brand of extraverted narcissism (aka overt or grandiose).
The “covert” in covert narcissism refers to the grandiosity inherent to all narcissists. Covert narcissists may be quiet or shy (and often are) but inside-in other words, *covertly*-they still harbor overblown visions of themselves and their future: dreams, for example, of one day being discovered for their remarkable creativity or intelligence or insight. What’s different about covert narcissists is that because they’re introverted, they don’t advertise their inflated egos. They agree with statements like *I feel I’m temperamentally different from most people *and *Even when I’m in a group of friends, I often feel very alone and uneasy*.
Many researchers have complained that covert is a misleading label, and I agree. Narcissists can be open or quiet about their grandiosity and often vacillate between feeling happily inflated and abjectly deflated; covert and overt traits coexist in all narcissists to one degree or another.
For that reason, in* *Rethinking Narcissism, (www.drcraigmalkin.com/the-book) I introduced the term introverted narcissist instead. Covert narcissism is just another way of describing introverted, vulnerable, or hypersensitive narcissists.
To add to the confusion, neither ‘narcissism’ nor ‘narcissist’ are diagnoses or disorders. Narcissism is a trait; narcissists are people who score well above average on measures of that trait. They may or may not be disordered.
The easiest way to understand all narcissism is to think of it as *the drive to feel special*, or stand out from the other 7 billion people on the planet in some way. Narcissists, then, are people so addicted to feeling special that they become more and more willing (the higher they are in the trait) to do whatever it takes to get their “high,” including lie, steal and cheat (just like any severe substance abuser).
This rethink helps explain the variety of narcissists, too.
Since there are many ways to feel special, narcissism comes in a multitude of forms. People can feel special by believing themselves to be the most intelligent or beautiful person in the room (extroverted), the most misunderstood or emotionally sensitive (introverted), or even the most helpful or caring person in the room (a new type, called *communal narcissism*).
The more addicted any narcissist is to feeling special, the more likely they are to become disordered, displaying the core of pathological narcissism, or **Triple E**, as I call it: *exploitation*-doing whatever it takes to feel special, regardless of the cost to those around them; *entitlement*-acting as if the world owes them and should bend to their will; and *empathy impairments*-becoming so fixated on the need to feel special that other people’s feelings cease to matter. At this end of the spectrum, we find narcissistic personality disorder (or NPD).
And herein lies the answer to the question. Built into the definition of NPD is manipulation *(exploitation). The more severe the disorder, the more likely that exploitative style is to become abusive. That means *anyone with NPD can become abusive over time. And abuse is dangerous.
Disordered narcissists (those with NPD) can be calculating about hiding their abusive side, whether they’re extraverted, introverted, or communal because *all disordered narcissists *are by definition manipulative. Here's the followup video where I describe what covert abuse is • How to Spot Covert Abu...
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The signs many people talk about may not yet be supported by research, but they are supported by hundreds of thousands of individuals having similar experiences. Shouldn't that count as evidence? Because if not then it opens the door for even more victim blaming and shaming, which is something the narcissist counts on. Do you ever worry that invalidating those of us who have numerous experiences with these types of people might actually be detrimental to our progress with healing outselves? Just some thoughts that come to mind, not meant to discourage your work because your perspective is sound and valuable. Awareness is key so that we can heal from CPTSD but most mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists don't have the expertise to even diagnose this issue let alone help anyone work through it. What are your thoughts on that?
Thanks for sharing :).
Jen
Jennifer-Crystal Johnson the signs people describe are signs of covert abuse. I haven’t invalidated that at all.
All I’ve done is the describe the accurate definition of covert narcissism. It has never meant what people are claiming it means, and it never will. And the main problem with continuing to insist that that’s what covert narcissism means, is that it doesn’t distinguish between any personality types.
Extroverted or overt narcissists can be covert with their abuse just as easily as introverted or shy narcissists can be covert with their abuse.
While I believe in acknowledging that abuse can be hidden - coercive control is a great example - I don’t believe in changing the meaning of psychological terms.
I guess I’m also confused (concerned?) by the comment that mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists don’t have expertise in complex ptsd; a colleague and collaborator of mine (we contributed to the same book) , Judith Herman, coined the term. I don’t know any peers in my field who aren’t trained in complex trauma. What worries me is that there are countless self proclaimed experts who’ve coopted Judy’s diagnosis and many other terms, holding themselves out as having answers for survivors that “mainstream mental health” experts don’t. It strikes me as a a cynical, exploitative move-and sadly, one that’s clearly been all too effective.
Dr. Craig Malkin Realize I am strictly speaking from my personal and second hand experiences, having only self-studied psychology and narcissism but also experienced varying types of abuse at varying levels, from manipulation and emotional abuse to physical and sexual abuse, all at the hands of people who I believed loved me, because they said so. I have been to numerous psychologists and therapists and counselors, and I literally did all the talking right down to the diagnosis itself on most occasions. While I have utmost respect for the field itself, I think that many people working within it are as burnt out as the rest of us and maybe don't have the level of personal accountability to admit that to themselves and wind up half-assing things like most of us humans do. Femember, this has just been my experience.
I woke up to narcissistic abuse a few months ago and my entire basis and foundation of reality was rattled. The reason why people have seemingly negative commentary is because those of us who have experienced a lifetime of this kind of abuse can see the ... underlying effects that this information will have on the collective understanding of narcissism. It almost seems like you're standing up for them at some points, which survivors are keenly aware of. I understand an objective perspective, but when this type of abuse has always been minimized and invalidated, that tells anyone who has been through it that they don't matter, which is only due to the narcissists conditioning.
I have never had a conversation with a therapist where I got anything out of it that I couldn't have gotten out of journaling except for one time. Due to a diagnosis I think he might have invented to help me. Is situational depression a thing?
I know I'm not alone in my experiences, which tells me that There's something wrong with the system, not the field.
And again, this is just my take on things. Personal experience.
Your experience is hugely important. It's your truth--and I'd never take that away from anyone. It's far too precious and central to recovery. Central to feeling whole. Central to feeling like we matter again (when the people around us have tried to convince us otherwise) I'm so sorry for what you've been through. I'm also so impressed by your courage and strength in healing. That you struggled to find good care only highlights your resilience.
I can see now my mistake was focusing entirely on what covert narcissism is (or isn't) instead of explaining *covert abuse* (I think that's what many are describing)--who tends to perpetrate it, and how better to understand it.
In my efforts to educate the public about what these terms psychologist have created and studied mean, I never want to lose sight of the most important goal: to promote understanding and healing. I'm grateful for your sharing (and patience :-) with me). Because of you, I plan a follow up, so no one is distracted from my true purpose in speaking publicly about these patterns.
Situational depression is term--much like Judy's complex PTSD--that's meant to place the focus where it belongs: not on the mental health of the individual, but on the dangers of the environment or relationship that survivors often live in. Situational depression indicates that if your situation was changed, you wouldn't be depressed at all. So it has nothing to do with your "state of mind." The depression is a normal response to abnormal circumstances. PTSD is normal response to abnormal circumstances, too. Those are what need to change and receive attention.
Thank you for your comments. facebook.com/drcraigmalkin/posts/10156179942093217
I agree with you 100%, Jen.
Overts think they are God, Coverts know they aren’t, but are terrified of others finding out they aren’t.
This is brilliant!!!
Christine Taylor was married to cn for 15 years and coparenting divorced for the past 6. Our boys are 15 and 18 now.
Christine Taylor
I was married to cn for 15 years and coparenting divorced for the past 6. Our boys are 15 and 18 now.
This is brilliant!
Nice
It's the lack of empathy that's astounding to me. It's astonishing.
Forgive me if I missed the subtleties of this video. What I'm hearing you say is that overt/covert narcissism is simply a synonym for extroverted/introverted narcissists. That's not how I've ever used the term or heard it used. The closest I can come to describing the difference as I see it is that the overt narcissist is open about not caring whether you think they're a good person. The covert narcissist makes "being a good person" the cornerstone of their whole phony act, making them that much harder to confront.
No.
That’s communal narcissism
@@CraigMalkin Well.. there's another one that can be improperly associated to ASD individuals. I suppose the biggest difference is that with Autism, it's highly unlikely that you would get "socially involved" in order to Protect Your "Cover"... Getting Socially Involved to that degree tends to result in a complete physical crash and doing nothing for at least three days.
*Overt:* manipulation / control, disdain, sabotaging, blaming *_BY_* yelling, name calling, physical abusive
*Covert:* manipulation / control, disdain, sabotaging, blaming *_WITHOUT_* yelling, name calling, physical abusive
that's what I understand from all the videos I've watched.. the covert makes it harder for the outer world or even for the victim to realize the abuse.. that's why it's seen as more manipulative than the other modality.. I'm in a group of people and I spot the most subtle ways my mom use to belittle me; I'm instantly triggered for noticing it while every one else is completely oblivious to it.
Absolutely what I experience with my 2 ex husbands. Literally went from an aggressive overt to a calm and collected covert. I am nearly dead inside
@@GinjaFajr so sorry to hear this, dear.. I wish and pray you will rebuild yourself and regain the satisfaction of life.. you deserve to be happy 🤗 🌼
C'est, you don't know.
@@haventchangedmypfpsince2009 oh dear, I hope and pray you are in a much better place.. nobody deserves this type of treatment.. wish you come out stronger and it all turns into good 🙏
Compulsive liars
V Pen Oh yes... They are
Yes, indeed they are...she is!
Should always be very careful when dealing with a narc. Have always believed in love to cure many things but it only fed my narc’s enormous ego. it is important to be wise when dealing with a narcissist and I’m glad that darkwebprohack helped cloned my wife’s phone. i got access to her dealings both on phone and social media without touching her phone,I’m here in Miami Florida USA and able to access my wife’s phone with a cloned app even while she was away in the UK cheating on me.All I did was share my wife’s phone number with darkwebprohack and I was able to read both her new and deleted messages from my phone through a remote link to a programmed app containing cloned cell information without having to touch her phone...my wife was a cheating Narcissist and I’m glad to find out all her secrets and infidelity with the help of darkwebprohack. My wife also tried to use this coronavirus outbreak as a means to get back to me but I’m not stupid ebony to allow someone so toxic back into my life, I’m finally going through divorce with a lot of evidence against her.i read all deleted and chat on Whatsapp,Facebook,Instagram and GPS location of her phone at all times, you can contact the great hacker via Gmail (darkwebprohack) or text and speak to him directly on the phone and WhatsApp +17076225057 and I hope you will fund the peace with your heart after finding the truth just like myself
Covert is perfect becuase the covert disguises their narcassism as love, compassion and empathy.
Wandering Free Love is vampiric in nature; whether we want to admit it or not. I want something from you and you want something from me. A good example is natalism (procreation). A mother knows that she created a future corpse; a sentient being doomed by design like the rest of us. Like a rapist with benevolent intentions, said mother “gets off” on fulfilling her evolutionary urge to procreate. Doesn’t make it ethical. I care very deeply about children in a non-vampiric manner....which is why I refused to become a father when I had the chance. My type of “love” is superior and more selfless than most. Caring = harm reduction. Procreation, for example, increases the likelihood of harm. Nature itself is our sole oppressor. That is an objective fact.
MsYogaGrrrl you off your medication boy?
Should always be very careful when dealing with a narc. Have always believed in love to cure many things but it only fed my narc’s enormous ego. it is important to be wise when dealing with a narcissist and I’m glad that darkwebprohack helped cloned my wife’s phone. i got access to her dealings both on phone and social media without touching her phone,I’m here in Miami Florida USA and able to access my wife’s phone with a cloned app even while she was away in the UK cheating on me.All I did was share my wife’s phone number with darkwebprohack and I was able to read both her new and deleted messages from my phone through a remote link to a programmed app containing cloned cell information without having to touch her phone...my wife was a cheating Narcissist and I’m glad to find out all her secrets and infidelity with the help of darkwebprohack. My wife also tried to use this coronavirus outbreak as a means to get back to me but I’m not stupid ebony to allow someone so toxic back into my life, I’m finally going through divorce with a lot of evidence against her.i read all deleted and chat on Whatsapp,Facebook,Instagram and GPS location of her phone at all times, you can contact the great hacker via Gmail (darkwebprohack) or text and speak to him directly on the phone and WhatsApp +17076225057 and I hope you will fund the peace with your heart after finding the truth just like myself
@MsYogaGrrrl "where is god in your dire presumptions" get your superstitions out of the conversation, keep it to yourself
This isn’t what “covert narcissism” means. Neither covert nor overt narcissists present with compassion and empathy.
I have been the family scapegoat all my life and I am 65. I don't really care whether or not they are introverted or extroverted, all I know is that they are continually mean, gossip to ruin ones reputation, even saying things that never happened while denying what they did or pretending it was a joke. Bottom line is that I hated being around them, whenever they entered the room a sort of gloom fell over those who were their targets. They were mean and spiteful over nothing and very friendly to those they wished to impress. They are miserable to be around, so for me, I am not very sympathetic to the plight they make for themselves, I just want them away from me.
here here… me too. I feel the same way Gwendolyn. It also amazes me how they sync when it comes to scapegoating and abusing that person they've deemed the scapegoat. I've removed myself from the scapegoat position. And I am happy about that. Although, I know they found another family member to scapegoat. I'm praying for him to see it and be able to leave it. Best Wishes.
They are mediocre people
it is amazing how supressed that whole energy phenomenon is, cos it's so obvious there's some weird energy exchange occurring. Only distance seems to help, and even after they left the room you can still feel their gross energy
Same here with my sister...she is toxic. She is too toxic for my mental health.
Blood doesn’t obligate us to misery all our lives.
Dr. Ramani referred to it as genetic bad luck!
Strongly disagree. Humility is the mask of coverts.
Victoria Layrisse I’ve already addressed this in my comments.
Why so you say this? 🤔 Victoria Layrisse
Victoria Layrisse can you elaborate dear, very interesting concept
They act very humble on the outside, to the outside world. They want to appear vulnerable and innocent, someone that is incapable of being as sinister as they truly are. That's the mask they wear.
Victoria Layrisse that’s not covert narcissism. Might be communal narcissism. This might help www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/romance-redux/201802/is-what-everyone-should-know-about-covert-abusers
Oh no no no, but they are SNEAKY 😒
BlessedByHim www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/romance-redux/201802/how-spot-covert-abusers?amp
They are devious, deceptive, insincere, manipulative, lying, angry, and envious. With an outward facade of goodness and moraility.
They are sneaky! They fool you into thinking they are sweet. Then they cheat on you. Smear you to anyone who will listen. She can't help being the way she is. She is ill. No one believes that this sweet person could ever do such horrible things. They walk away surrounded by people feeling sorry for them. You spend years in hell alone. Trying to figure out what the hell happened. If that ain't sneaky. Then what the hell is ?
@@reesedaniel5835 and so are extreme overt narcissists Those traits don't distinguish between the two types at all.
And so are extreme overt narcissists. That's not a distinguishing characteristic--in either empirical research or clinical practice.
What I've described is the accepted and correct understanding in the field
Covert narcissist care about their reputation at a really high level! Over narcissist could care less. That's how you can tell them apart!
I felt it was totally the other way around
@@GinjaFajr all narcissists generally care greatly about image. I am a highly self-aware Borderline with multiple narcissistic traits, so I feel I've a lot of insight into these matters. Fortunately I do experience real empathy and genuine compassion.
@@jaimebanks8377 it's more like, the covert would KILL to save for their public image; whereas the overt, though also capable of killing, is confident and secure enough (higher self-esteem), to not be dependent on others for their self-esteem.
It is nuanced, but there is a difference in their self-esteem levels as the covert has to work much harder needing it to come from others instead of themselves.
OMG my mom is a covert narcissist and yes she was sneaky and manipulative!! And said horrible things to me but only when alone so no one would know!! You know covert!! If I told anyone how she was they never believed me! Because out in public she acted like mom of the year!
My wifes mother is this way. It is so toxic for everyone in the family!
Some subjects are best explained by those with experience, rather than those with a few letters beside their name. ; )
Totally my mum too!
@@reesedaniel5835 actually he was a victim you may not of realised but he has other videos that explain this experience. He also has letters after his name and comes on here for free to help peeps like you and me. I am so pleased that he does!
My definition of covert narcissism is that not only is the narcissism harder to see, but that it is possible for the narcissist to groom another person into feeling as if they (the victim) is the perpetrator of the abuse, thus convincing the world that the narcissist has been abused. Covert narcissism makes abuse hard to see because the victim has been groomed not to see it. It’s easy for professionals to say focus on whether you are being abused, but in my experience victims of covert Narcissistic abuse spend years being abused because the narcissist has groomed them into believing that if they don’t meet the narcissist’s needs then the victim is the one doing the abuse. In other words, how can a person identify abuse if someone has convinced them that they are the perpetrator of the abuse - covert narcissism is a form of brain washing that requires distance from the abuser and therapy in order to recognise the reality of what has happened. Only then can the real victim begin to focus on identifying abusive patterns of behaviour. I speak here as someone who was a victim of a covert Narcissistic mother, and as a retired mental health nurse who has met many similar victims of covert Narcissistic abuse. I also believe from my professional experience that child abusers are often difficult to identify because the abuser uses covert narcissism not only to groom the child, but also grooms the adults around the child so that they can get access to the child in order to abuse them. Covert narcissism does differ from overt narcissism but in my opinion the difference lies in it’s presentation. Covert narcissism is both pernicious and insidious.
Chances are, if you think someone is a narcissist/sociopath, that's a telling sign
Should always be very careful when dealing with a narc. Have always believed in love to cure many things but it only fed my narc’s enormous ego. it is important to be wise when dealing with a narcissist and I’m glad that darkwebprohack helped cloned my wife’s phone. i got access to her dealings both on phone and social media without touching her phone,I’m here in Miami Florida USA and able to access my wife’s phone with a cloned app even while she was away in the UK cheating on me.All I did was share my wife’s phone number with darkwebprohack and I was able to read both her new and deleted messages from my phone through a remote link to a programmed app containing cloned cell information without having to touch her phone...my wife was a cheating Narcissist and I’m glad to find out all her secrets and infidelity with the help of darkwebprohack. My wife also tried to use this coronavirus outbreak as a means to get back to me but I’m not stupid ebony to allow someone so toxic back into my life, I’m finally going through divorce with a lot of evidence against her.i read all deleted and chat on Whatsapp,Facebook,Instagram and GPS location of her phone at all times, you can contact the great hacker via Gmail (darkwebprohack) or text and speak to him directly on the phone and WhatsApp +17076225057 and I hope you will fund the peace with your heart after finding the truth just like myself
So many people ignore their gut/intuition. That ancient instinct has never went away. We have it for a reason.
The average psychologist doesn't even believe that abusive narcissists even exist. They even pretend that gas lighting is not even a thing, when you try to tell them about it and call you "crazy"
I dont know what the text book indication description is but in the everyday world and to the people getting the abuse, "covert" means they are doing it in secret, they are hiding what they are doing, even though they the ones with high level connections can eventually get entire communities involved
@Axel Lilian fogaing Ilouga 💯💯💯
Which is why, I'm a bit skeptical of this video. Many people who have never personally suffered abuse from these people would not truly understand.
They say "experience is the best teacher..." and it's so true. Getting a degree from a university and ACTUALLY experiencing it are two VERY different things.
Something else people fail to understand, is that a lot of doctors and psychologists can be narcissists as well. It's an absolutely horrid cycle. It really is.
I VERY respectfully disagree. I think if A name, ANY name (whether it be somatic/vulnerable/overt/covert/spiritual/shy, etc.) helps someone figure out what they are dealing with and it keeps them safe is very important. Yes, at the narcissist's CORE the traits are the same (and yes, the bottom line is the same) but initially the cloaks they wear do "appear" to be different and do SEEM to fall into certain, nameable categories. I guess what I'm saying is...Whatever it takes to spread awareness.
burnt sienna I’m simply reporting the science. Psychological terms only retain integrity over time if their accurate meaning is preserved. I agree about different presentations but covert narcissism is not being used correctly (much like the misuse of schizophrenia in the 70s when people decided it meant split personality)
I think the field itself has a major problem with terminology in general, which confuses all of us -- sociopath, psychopath are no more, huh? Now it's: he's a.... "antisocial"? Even though he's charismatic and people like him? Huh? The term "antisocial" comes from the academics so it naturally makes little sense to those of us on the ground who are actually dealing with these types of people in our lives. Covert narcissism has been popularized because it resonates with our experience of these people from real life, not a research lab. Rather than fight the groundswell, I suggest you pay attention to it and try to understand it better because it's gotten popular for a reason. It accurately describes a real phenomena, a type of individual that so many of us have been burned by but weren't prepared for since their narcissism - their grandiosity, bragging, etc - are covert and we're instead sold an image of someone looking to help, know about us, save the world, etc
I agree. So many of the terms are horribly confusing. That's definitely an ongoing problem in psychology and psychiatry. And I'm not sure the DSM-V is much of an improvement. The criteria for NPD are more inclusive now, including introverted presentations, but there are so many sections and subsections, it's hard to even track.
But there's a more practical issue with the confusion I'm trying to speak to. I care far less about clarifying jargon than helping people heal. That's why I'm a clinician.
I can only speak from science. While there's such a thing a covert abuse, covert narcissists and overt narcissists *both* engage in it. So misusing the term just creates confusion. It's unlikely that psychologists will alter the meaning of covert narcissism based on a groundswell of misunderstanding, any more that they would have changed the meaning of schizophrenia to split personality because that's what people decided it meant. Covert narcissism by any name has been researched in depth and validated with a certain meaning (or "construct validity"). That's not going to change.
Feel free to speak of covert abusers. But make no mistake: they can present as loud and outgoing or quiet and withdrawn--and to suggest otherwise only distracts from more reliable danger signs.
Sociopath and psychopath, by the way are still used in the field, and while there's overlap, they're not the same thing. Sociopath is the old name for antisocial personality disorder. I'm not fond of the label either. I think its stems from the fact that in order to meet criteria for ASPD, you have to have committed many "anti-social" acts before the age of 15 (or been diagnosed with a conduct disorder).
Final note: Much of the research on how people with NPD behave isn't based on lab studies. It's based on clinical report (therapists working with people). Lab studies tend to involve undergraduates taking paper and pencil self-report (personality) tests.
Hope that helps and thanks for the comment!
Manipulation is one of the most used traits in all forms of abuse. It does not matter what they are labeled because it's the toxic behavior that should be the focus. If a person abuses then they are an abuser, plain and simple...
Am I the only one who felt like he is a narc of sorts himself 😂
Your comments remind me of the 5 Ill-informed therapists I turned to for help. If you haven’t lived it there is no way for you to know. I have read your book and it has many valid points. However the degree of evil exhibited by these beings is something that defies logic or understanding.
My comments are based on extensive experience with NPD and other personality disorders as well as extensive research on the subject. I've lived it as well.
ghmother54 I totally agree with you some levels that I believe not even the therapist understand , only the person who is living this hell
@@melyramos8716 Yup!!!
I've heard that coverts are more subtle in their manipulation, they will have more people fooled than the overt narcissist. They are very aware of which traits are perceived favorably and unfavorably, so they are better at disguising themselves. I think people describe coverts as more dangerous because they are more likely to inflict insidious psychological damage/abuse and they are more difficult for the average person to detect and can therefore slip in under the radar.
Vastly more subtle manipulation - so much so it can be hard to put your finger on it at all!
YES! That is a great observation and way to put it. The level of awareness of unliked expressions is a big difference!
Yep. That’s them.
I was married to a covert narcassist who I discovered had murdered his first wife. He spent 12 yrs in prison (was supposed to be but got out on a technicality). I also found out that he had been in a mental hospital for more than 3 mos after he was arrested.
He got a doctorate in psychology while in prison & never practiced once out of prison.
Until I started researching, I thought he may have been a sociopath, but I can see now he was a narcassist. When you put a description of a covert narcassist up, his photo should be next to it as it describes him to a T.
I was his trophy wife. Everything was about him. The lies, manipulation, putting me into a 'cacoon ', isolated. I could go on & on. Lack of empathy. And ofcourse he denies killing his first wife & talked bad about her & ofcourse, he was the victim by her. She was 16, he was 22 & back from Vietnam when he killed her about 2 yrs after marrying her. Had a woman who he wanted at the time to leave her husband & run off with him & tried to give his dead wife's clothes to her. He gave me 3 different versions of what happened to her. Ann Rule wrote about him in one of her books.
I escaped & believe me, it wasn't easy. Control freak to the max. Cost me a lot in possessions, but we'll worth it to get away. Was fairly good at hiding his anger & jealousy, but I got to know how to read the signs.
Gaslighting-a great deal of that. Also if anyone didn't like him or wouldn't buy from him, then they were crazy. On the outside of our home, he tried to look perfect, as in perfect father, husband, religious guy, the works. But if you had put a secret camera up, people would be shocked at what really went on.
It's been 4 yrs & I am still looking over my shoulder as he kept the ex wife before me in constant fight mode because he has to 'win'. I totally cut all ties & contact & have ignored the attempts to goad me into a response. He destroyed much of my life & I will never be the same. I struggle daily. When we were separated, he wanted to go on a motorcycle ride into a quiet camping trip in Canada. Popped into my head immediately that I wouldn't come back alive if I went. I saw the true person when he figured out that I was actually going to get away. Punish me, he did, but it was nothing compared to what I had already gone through with him.
Sorry so long. I'm grateful I got away.
My husband is a covert narcissist too. Im planning to save up and leave him eventually.
Praise the Lord you survived.
My God. I’m glad you got away
@@PinkPisces Thank you. It's been 4 years since I left & I'm just starting to get my life & head together again. Still have some bad dreams about him but I'm getting there. Thank you for your kindness.
@@malubasic2267 Thank you. God gave me an out. I lost a great deal with of myself as well as animals I really love but He's restoring me piece by piece.
Hope plenty of people see this. Glad you decided to point out where the distinction actually lies. I always understood 'covert narcissism' to mean that it's the grandiosity that's kept under wraps and indeed, that makes them more difficult to spot in many cases, but the underlying issues and coping strategies are essentially the same irrespective of outward presentation. My malignant NPD ex husband was largely covert but, as you say, his grandiosity would fluctuate according to mood and audience.
I agree, the term 'covert narcissist' can be misleading. I have found that this term is often referring to the fact that the person pretended to be vulnerable & insecure in the beginning in order to trick the target into feeling empathy & deep emotions towards them which turns into a desire to help them. Later, once the hooks have been deeply secured it would appear that this 'covert' narcissist has transformed into 'overt' as crazymaking & gaslighting begin running rampant. Once their mask slips off, they often switch to what would appear to be overt narcissism by basically undoing all they did while in the 'covert' phase as they tell you how they REALLY felt all along & how pathetic they really feel the target to be. We know that traits of a narcissist, so I think covert refers to the creatures who HIDE it, yet to a degree maybe a large number of them at least start out as 'covert' by hiding their true intentions and feelings but I think being 'covert' more accurately fits into simply ONE of the techniques that a PREDATOR uses in order to capture prey.
Hi TJ me old fruit. Yes, I've heard you use the term 'covert' in that way many times but, if you don't mind my saying so, I don't find your overt/covert distinction very useful (no intention to offend here 😳). After all, what abuser is overt about their abusive inclinations, especially at the beginning of a relationship? All people with NPD feel that they are genuine victims and, while they appear to have few qualms about victimising others, they do not consider themselves to be the baddies. This does not fit the image they hold of themselves. They think they're just doing what they need to do and imagine that everyone else is doing the same. For most NPDs, the idealisation stage is real - they truly believe that this person might be the one that's going to make everything ok. Devaluation only begins when the new person disappoints the narcissist (as they inevitably will) by being an imperfect reflection of what the narcissist considers themselves to be. Even when the "crazymaking & gaslighting" stage begins, the abuser's intention is surely to keep you in the dark about the fact that these are manipulations. The fact that you've worked out what's going on doesn't warrant a reclassification from covert to overt. However, the abuser may put less effort into concealing their manipulations once they know that you're on to them. After all, if you're on to them but you're still there, this is a clear signal that they've got you hooked (and even less worthy of respect or effort).
When watching your videos, I have often wondered if the people you have experienced are more psychopathic than anything else since some of the essential hallmarks of NPD are almost never touched upon. The abusive tactics you talk about, however, are common to both disorders, as is exploitation.
Still thoroughly enjoy your stuff though - the drama!!! 🤩
Karn Well-stated. Which hallmarks of NPD are you referring to? You nailed though, about the target still being there being less worthy of respect!
@darnell anderson Yes they control that as well, by their pre-emptive smear campaigns they perform while wearing their fake mask of sainthood to your face, usually long before you become aware of what they are and before their mask slips off. That way, when you attempt to warn others or to get validation from the people closest to you, they see you as the problem, not the narc.
That's brilliant. what you explained cleared my thought. Thank you.
Vaknin says many narcissists switch between the two.
Coverts are more difficult to spot because they present as kindly victims.
My mother was never grandiose. She used to say " it is easier to trap a fly with honey than with vinegar". She is the poster child for evil. Narcissism is the result of many choices these people made that caused their conscience to die. Ezekiel 18 " the soul that sins dies". They got it thousands of years ago. My mom enjoyed trouble making as a child. She was a spoiled brat. Now she is a body with a dead soul. She knows right from wrong. She taught me. Thank-you
I am a 54 year old little girl due to the torture I endured as a child. I just never grew up. I am disabled due to PTSD. Had to leave the medical field due to panic attacks.
I will say this - it was an article about covert narcissism that made me realize my mother in law was in fact a narcissist. But I see what you mean - she definitely shifts in and out of introvert/extrovert modes.
The way they continue lying blows my mind.
Jennifer Clayton I know!!! Even when you e caught them lying red handed they will proceed to lie right in your face!!! And afterwards even though they never admitted to the lying if you as much as set some limits or boundaries they will tell you you are being a bit harsh as if to say the lie wasn’t that big of a deal and doesn’t warrant you from withholding money, openness or whatever that may be. This just shows you how much they’ve gotten away with crap their whole life and also the extent that the enablers have enabled!!!
They tell lies to cover up more lies. Anything to keep them for taking responsibility for what they have done.
@@AmbyJeans They also have very selective memories and are masters at gaslighting their victims. The victim attempts to address the problem from a place of truth whereas the narcopath speaks from nothing but lies and subterfuge and will often become very angry and throw tantrums to confuse and psychologically disable the victim. It's like trying to mix oil with water. Not possible. Narcs are intra-species predators. They are literally a sub-species of "human" (see Genesis 3:15, Psalm 58:3-5 and Matthew 13:34). Of course the so called "churches" are controlled by these wolves in sheep's clothes as well, so you won't hear them preaching about this problem anytime soon. Narcs are spiritually and emotionally retarded because their father is not God, literally. This is why secular psychiatry claims there is "no cure" for NPD. They try to explain it from a secular standpoint when in truth, it's both a SPIRITUAL and BIOLOGICAL problem that can only be "cured" by the narcisisist repenting of their wickedness and humbling themselves to Christ (which probably ain't gonna happen). Like their father the Serpent, humility is not their strong point. The truth is harsh but it's still the Truth.
The fact that they keeps on inventing new lies to cover old lies proves that they know they are lying
This is the part that really really truly is the most shocking
I know my ex husband was a covert. Sick and twisted creature. He was my 1st and last narc.
For me personally I think that some of the fixation around identifying the narcissist, 'hidden' or 'covert' is that I personally feel invalidated in my experience which is painful. When I argue with my mother I feel like the world is closing in on me, that I am a problem and everyone else thinks it too. I don't know how to trust myself. My mother was so good at convincing me that no one else cared about me, that I was a defective person, that I was a bad person, that I was incompetent, bad listener, mentally unstable and triangulating with people that weren't there and silencing me with guilt/loyalty. To this very day, I struggle to accept to myself that it was real. I was isolated and dependent on her. I still feel like I have a question mark inside me. When I was a child she even accused me of not loving her and 'using her'. I ask myself how I could have been using her; she was my caregiver. I still feel that isolation. All 3 of my main family members do not see what I see. They're all I've ever really had. It is not a welcome family discussion. I do not feel that I am a good person, that I am right, or that I am valid. It's like the abuse wasn't even there. I second guess myself a lot, and i'm ashamed if I identify with something I don't want to. It's like I have her voice in my head that 'they think you're crazy too.' :(
You are a normal, kind, empathic human being, the way God made you. They are projecting their faults onto you. Everything they accuse you of is what THEY ARE. This is called narcissistic projection. They attempt to dump all their flaws onto you while posturing themselves with YOUR GOOD QUALITIES. It's basically identity theft. And yes it's a total mind f#Ck. The only way to heal is to get away from them and stay away, unfortunately. Narcissists are emotional vampires who are emotionally retarded and thus, must feed off our emotions. They know there is something effed up about them so they project it onto us to make themselves feel superior.
Welcome back! This video helps me understand my mom's behavior greatly. She can level the private passive-agressiveness on me while at the same time posturing for the pity play in front of family or any other audience, including throwing me under the buss publicly when it suits her. It's really something to watch and see. She's also got strong borderline traits due to her own abandonment issues from childhood (mother and father).
I still struggle with my mom's public shaming of me, and how to respond in such cases. My mother has an insatiable need for people to care-take for her and there is no self-limiting control. She'd be happy to outsource all of her emotions onto others and has used me, even way back as a parentified child, to be the one who holds the family together, negating my own needs and acting as the adult in the family when I was even in elementary school. So much happened to me then that when I finally disclosed to her how I felt about all of it this past year her only response was "where was I!!" She dissociated herself from it all and turned a "blind eye" if you know what I mean. How do you get over the residual anger that comes through the grieving process of finally understanding what happened to me and my brother (who passed away in 1981). I'm quite sure he died of a broken hear long before he actually died suddenly.
I had to say to my mom, after the past couple of years of setting strong boundaries with her, and sticking up for myself, that if she continued her behavior toward me that it would cost her her relationship with me and I wouldn't come around any more. It wasn't easy at first, but she has tried to behave differently and has succeeded at times. And still, when there is a tense situation, or where emotions are involved (dad lives in a nursing home with dementia and there is always something going on with that) then she reverts back to "mom."
I would love to know if my mom's efforts are really genuine or part of her defense mechanisms to continue to manipulate, subtly, still by keeping me in her life?"
Thanks and hope to see more relevant videos soon.
Signed, a recovering echo. 54
Hey, Dr. Malkin, good to see you with a new video! Please keep posting more often; your videos are extremely informative and helpful. Thank you.
Thank you, Dr. Malkin. It is good to see you again. Your instruction resonates with me on many levels as I continue to understand what happened and my part to play in allowing a person like this into my life. My take on all the social media stuff out there and the all the life coaches is; a narcissist, is a narcissist, is a narcissist--regardless. My biggest hurdle, for many reasons, beyond the devastation, is now anger. It is hard to say that she won and just let it go.
Dr. Malkin, thank you so much for the videos. This really helped me put the puzzles pieces together. Everyone just "loves" my husband of 40 years. I had a "need panic" 2 months ago and could not get out of bed. I recently separated from my husband and am now just beginning my severe co-dependency recovery. The self blaming (extremely violent, alcoholic family of origin) and gas lighting by spouse keep me in the dark for 4 decades. I feel devastated right now.
It's emotionally and mentally exhausted dealing with a covert narcissist. I just everyone in our society has a sense of Psychology so that people can understand how it feels like dealing with an exploitative person.
Susan you are still here he was trying to kill your heart and he did not exceed. You are strong or you would not have survived all of those years. Now use that strength to build yourself a new life. You are not alone.
This has been SO helpful. As a clinician, I am having a hard time with a client who thinks they may be be a covert narcissist due to an article they read online indicating certain traits. I genuinely don't see it, but this video definitely cleared a lot of things up. Thank you for making this!
This is a point I (surprisingly) agree upon. I can testify that there is no difference between overt and covert narcissists. During times of strength all narcissists become overt. During times of weakness all narcissists become covert. The only thing that make them different is that some people with NPD are very successful and strong, and while they proceed from one success to another (success can be actual or percieved) they become more and more overt (or 'outgoing', as you say) and easy to spot; even the most overt narcissists suffer from fragility of their ego. Other people with NPD are much less sucessful and weak, so they go from one failure to another becoming less outspoken about their ideas of their own grandiosity, falling into depression most of the time and thus becoming covert narcissists.
However, what worries me most is that Wiki articles and DSM state "grandiosity" as the first and most prominent sign of malignant narcissism. And so do most phychology textbooks. So, therapists who never saw a 'covert' narcissist would never spot and diagnose one based on this texbook description. Therefore it's important to either amend the "grandiosity" trait description with the more explanatory "grandiosity or hidden grandiosity" trait, or to keep the term "covert narcissist" just in order for the mental health practitioners to be better aware that not all narcissists will come to their offices with megalomania in their look and their speech; some may come with abnormal timidness, self-blame and signs of depression.
I just saw this today and I'm so thankful to you! When you said that you don't like the terminology of overt and covert, that really hit home, because the narcissist in my personal life swings back and forth, which was so confusing when I would do my own research on the various "types" of narcissism. Realizing that a introverted narcissist can switch is helpful.
Excellent video! You definitely know what you’re talking about. After all, you’re the one with the degree. I am definitely going to buy that book. Thanks for all your help with this topic.
Thank you for explaining that! And so good to see you again!! I just finished your book a couple of weeks ago. Sooooo goooood : )
So glad you loved it !
Great video. Important distinctions made. I will look out for your book.
The focus on introversion, in many descriptions of the covert narcissist, could lead someone to wonder if *every single introverted and shy person* they know is "secretly" a narcissist. The irresponsible conflation is yet more stigma against introverted and shy people. That has been my experience in trying to learn more about this new kind of narcissism.
EE Entitlement and Exploitation - it took me several years to understand how my covert narcissist was entitled. She came across to every single person she knew as a soft spoken, very simple and non-materialist person.
I figured out she was very manipulative and a narcissist but I didn’t understand why she didn’t seem to be entitled to anything.
I subsequently, after much abuse figured out she felt entitled to my all of my time and energy. She would enjoy seeing how many of her responsibilities she could pawn off on me. She was never satisfied or appreciative of how much I was doing for her in addition to all my responsibilities. Then she started to exploit and manipulate me by covertly making things she wanted me to do as difficult as possible. She would do things like ask me to go to the store for her for a couple unimportant things and then wait until I was nearly back and then call me sincerely saying she forgot a few things. She liked seeing how much of a sucker I could be and it became very apparent she would never be satisfied until I destroyed myself! That is some perverse entitlement!
She now lives happily in a dumpy apartment working 2 bar shifts a week, primarily for narcissistic supply, and then she enjoys the rest of her life sitting on her couch watching reality tv while 3 different loser men handle all her responsibilities for her as they compete for her “affection” ! It’s soo gross!!!
Everyone is good at telling is what narcissism is and how it works , tell us how to heal from the abuse and how to deal with them in case it's someone in your family who you can't avoid.
I disagree..covert and overt should be used when describing a narc..it seems louder narcs are noticed whilst more sneaky narcs slip under the radar..they are all harmful..but quieter narcs know when to keep their mouths closed in public ensuring that the victim is further blamed for any conflict..the victim is seen as 'acting out'/ being more vocal
The hopelessness they make u feel is demonic and out of this world impotent ij your own life
I agree.
Thank you! The best description tired of unqualified people trying to add false attributes of this disorder.
they do not like being in the role of being Vulnerable.
Good shit, Craig!
I completely agree! As I tried to figure out which one was my ex husband by putting on these labels... he was both! Covert and grandiose... he was all and every kind! He could be introverted or extroverted... he was abusive silently and openly. You’re the first person I’ve heard say this and I am so glad I listened to your video!
Thank you!! This helps me a lot.. i have been dealing with my Narc. family for over 45 years now, and its hell.. I basically agree with another comment in that I don't care what you call it, just keep teaching what to do about it.. I would rather focus on healing, anyway...
How can it be that so many people (epidemic numbers) are suffering from their relationship with a narcissist and it isn't until recently that there is available information regarding narcissism? What is happening here?
Thank you so much for your wonderful way that you have explained this issue ❤️👍xx
You speak as one who has never been in a NARCISSISTIC relationship
Put it this way you research it we live it so who knows what?
Yup you folks are right. Its like a person living through a very complex war.. and then comes an author or professional who writes about that war , having absolutely no idea of the basic underlying factors. Dr. Saads you tube videos from Australia precisely nails this topic .
fmbmrtjdpcmrtb Who’s mother?
Michael Douglas You are not correctly informed to make a statement like this.
All I got to say is, steer clear of these BEAST!!...
Hello!, well that would explain why I had difficulty deciding if my Narcissist mother was overt or Covert, because she can be both. very helpfull video thank you
Thank you Dr Malkin for your clarity and common sense. Love from Australia 🇦🇺
Margy Rowland,I hope you are with a better man!
Thanks for this explanation. Particularly differentiating between covert narcissism and behaviors associated with psychopathic narcissism - and providing articles.
667. Good to keep the distinctions flowing, malleable, adjustable to more truth. The very discovery of the notion 'covert narcissism' though, and especially Joanna Kujath's video on the subject (I will always remember date and time of the moment I listened to that one ...!) had a HUGE impact on my life. I had known about narcissism .. but 'covert narcissism' absolutely sealed the deal: I WAS SAVED BY INSIGHT.
Thank you.
Good luck to all who suffer the dismay of such type personalities! I find that allowing myself some distance from these individuals, does a world of good! Some humans seem to have the need to want to control what is not theirs to control. Needing the utmost of attention, be it positive or negative also comes to mind. To live a full life is to encounter the good, the bad, the unsavory. It is in our best interest to learn to live amongst, allowing for boundaries and distance! Peace
The most brilliant explanation of the Narc's - the 3 E's. This is after at least 1,000 hours of UA-cam Narc study watching at 2x speed...... You're simply brilliant.
I’ve had experience that the narc that I’ve dealt with are using the people that are close to their target (me) and manipulate them to ruin my reputation and relationships. And then those people never told me what has been said because I think the narc’s opinion and lies about me seem believable. Does anyone agree or have an opinion? I’m trying to understand this completely so protect myself and family. Thank you
Alicia Dionne,your pretty smile ☺️ can make the news
Hello Dr. Malkin, in your research/clinic is there a link between commitment Phobia and Narcissism?
Looking forward to your next video.
My experience is that they lie, have no empathy for their lies, blame you for everything they themselves do (projection), go to others to speak badly about you so as to manipulate and gaslight the receive more attention (oh you poor sweet man. She is just so cruel), and then come back to you with a smile on their face. It’s sick, it’s covert, and it’s about having a million different knives sliced into your back and they just sit and watch while you bleed to death. Call it whatever name you want to, but it’s just a name. The problem is the disease AND the affect it has on their victim.
Thank you! This is quite helpful indeed.
I'm with someone I believe is a narcissist. They refuse to see a therapist. He accuses me of things non stop. He just a few hours ago tried to push me and our child down a flight of stairs and when I told the police they did nothing. They said for me to take him to family court. He has walked around the house with a knife and I had to beg him to put it away. When I try to get help because I don't feel me and our child are safe no one listens because he plays the I'm just a dad trying to do the right thing card. I ran outside with our baby banging on doors trying to get help and he chased us outside and then blocked us in. The police literally did nothing and I bet if he didn't snatch my phone and throw it and I recorded everything he would have been arrested as he should have been.
Hi Dr. Malkin, I see what you mean regarding 'covert abuse' and how it's been mistaken for a separate brand of narcissism. I wanted to ask you though, wouldn't higher trait machiavellianism lead to a narcissist choosing a style of abuse that is less overt. I mean, is there some kind of correlation between higher machiavellianism and preference for a covert abuse strategy? I feel like many of the folks swearing that they're dealing with a true "covert narcissist" are just describing someone [self-centered and unempathic] that is particularly machiavellic and seems to REALLY care about their public image, especially as a righteous person (as if they were a high-profile politician). Does this sound like a narcissist or some other type of disturbed character?
I agree. I actually address this in my followup video. See : How to Spot Covert Abusers" in this list. I even wrote a follow up blog that addressed precisely what you're saying! thank you for your insightful comment. The righteous person you're asking about--could a communal narcissist ("I'm the most helpful person I know"--and yes they do agree with statements like that), but you're right, there must be some Machiavellianism mixed in. Unlikely to be *just* narcissistic.
So glad to see you back! Your work is extremely important, thank you so much for being here on yt for all of us to learn from your expertise. Can you PLEASE look into or talk about PARENTAL ALIENATION? Dr. Craig Childress has equated parental alienation with narcissism. It would be great if you to could team up. Dr. Childress talks about the aspect of parental alienation when divorcing a narcissist and how they manipulate children to completely alienate the non narcissistic parent. From my experience, I have found that narcissists destroy boundaries with anyone they come in contact with, especially their own children. With the child's boundaries destroyed at a young age, the narcissist is able to manipulate the children much easier, therefor keeping the non-narcissistic parent in the abusive relationship much longer for fear of loosing their children. Thanks again for your work :)
Narcissistic grandmothers also love to alienate or turn their grandchildren against their Scapegoat son or daughter. I've had first hand experience in this.
Thanks you Dr Malkin. Helpful information. Best regards :-)
As a sufferer of NPD (and more specifically a covert narcissist), I agree. Most people who suffered abuse want to think that being covert is a strategy because that emphasizes the malevolence of their abuser but it’s actually just shyness, hence the introverted term. A shy narcissist will simply become less shy in a relationship as time goes by and hence become more openly manipulative but that’s a not a strategy, just introversion.
Exactly--and I hope you're getting the support you need to change. I promise, with commitment anyone can. You weren't born with these coping strategies. They were learned. #courage
Dr. Craig Malkin Thank you! I’m trying to change by doing some self-hypnosis and reading books on narcissism.
@Anna-Clara Hi did you change yet, or got some advice on how to change?
Covert narcissist here, it's a lifestyle not something we feel as though we can change.
Finally someone who can understand me.
Mine took 3 years into our marriage to show his true identity, that my good doctor is how I differentiate between covert and overt, he showered me and my children with care and affection in the first 3 years and the week after we bought our home he flipped the script, it’s been a nightmare ever since and that was 2013, I only found out what I was dealing with last December when he ruined the last Christmas he was going to ruin for me and my kids, and now because he’d put me in a state of complete dependence on him financially I am struggling to find a way out. There IS a difference! Coverts are very dangerous people
Thank you, Dr. Malkin, for this video. Of all the information I've encountered, yours is the most empathetic, and I believe persons with NPD or narcissistic tendencies should get empathy. I'd be grateful, though, if therapists would educate the public more about how unrecognizable a covert narcissist might become during a conflict, especially if there is a sociopathic streak and they are a public persona. Most of us will not know what to make of the extreme reaction, and so may exacerbate the situation with potentially dire consequences. I think people should get more tools on how to navigate a conflict with these individuals since it is where their true character comes to light.
Thank you. Whenever people focus more on labels or single characteristics instead of the processes within pervasive patterns of behavior, it starts to feel ... like everybody is a narcissist; which essentially is *not* the case at all. Learning to disengage by degrees, with mindfulness and as much compassion as you feel is right for you and your safety and your situation ... that can't be done by "witch hunting" and rabid labeling. It takes focus to resolve these kinds of relationships.
She actually says, with a straight face, ‘my needs are more important than yours’. She’s just hired a coach for talented and gifted people because she says she’s special. When I try to talk about this she just goes into a rage.
Thank you very much doctor Malkin that does help to relieve my mind because I thought after being married to a narcissist and not realizing that until after we divorced I thought how am I going to the fair was how am I going to tell or see this underhanded manipulation until it's too late but explaining that just looking for the abuse where you're made to feel small my ex was very dismissive with me I can't remember him ever using my first name for the last 15 years of our marriage at least and that was all just scared to the idea that I am smarter than you and you need to do what I want you to do I've got it all figured out for you so that I do understand and have felt that before which I can relate to any other further relationships and other people are men who want to control again so thank you very much for straightening that out for me
Hi, I just finished your book and very much appreciated it. My husband has many issues. He is VERY quiet, passive (aggressive, really, when he thinks his mask is being endangered), very eager to be enmeshed and above all believes he shifts wildly between believing he is "the best" or "perfect" as his mom always told him and thinking he is insufficient and lacking. My question to you, I cannot decided if he is on the 8,9, or 10 part of the scale. He can be manipulative and mean and he lies, but he does not do it to hurt anyone for fun or pleasure. He can say very mean things, but later regrets them, not so much remorsefully, it's odd, he has good intention, but I also know he will say horrible things again if he thinks his mask is being threatened. He is in therapy and we have a couples therapist who is quite good. He does seem determined to change, but sometimes I get scared when I read the REALLY bad stuff and dangerous stuff that this is all an act. He has moments where he becomes so frightened and cries about feeling like he will blow away in the wind if he does not keep this front up and then he will not exist. I care very much for him, but I do not want to be in this marriage only to cater to his delusion. I am determined to try the empathy suggestions, but I really would like to know if there are clear criteria for what the extremely dangerous traits are? It seems even people at an 8 will manipulate and lie, but that intention does actually matter. Does this make sense at all?
Thanks for considering my questions.
GLH
I think to ppl who never dealt with one either covert or overt, it's basically impossible for them to recognize this type of ppl. But if you ever dealt one, you would know soon when you meet another one.
Sponge Queenie,hope you are not with a narc 🙄 cause you are too precious 🌹🌹 🌺🌺!
Wouldn’t you say that looking for a willingness to be vulnerable gets tricky when you’re dealing with a psychopath? They frequently (according to Dr. Martha Stout and Dr. Robert Hare) play the victim and tell sob stories about their exes, childhoods, etc. This can appear to be a willingness to be emotional, close and vulnerable, which may lead a person to conclude the person ISN’T narcissistic when in fact, the behavior is a calculated maneuver to extract pity in order to manipulate or to avoid responsibility. In short, I have trouble distinguishing between a genuine outcry for help and a calculated play for pity or, as you described it, a narcissistic “my pain is greater than yours” monologue and would love any additional insight you may be able to offer.
Question: When you mentioned suicidal tendencies being a danger, did you mean for the c.n. or the target?
Can you share a little more about the discard after the lovebomb phase, why do they do that? and do we feel more attached to them after they have done that to you a few times?
Best info starts at 6:08 "The real signs you should be looking for, are the problems that have to do with (covert narcissists) not being able to be open to others... not being able to share when they are sad or scared or lonely even when they actually get close to people.... They have emotion phobia where they pull back or shy away from any conversation about real emotions. .... narcissistic people replace that ability to be open and vulnerable about what they are feeling inside with a kind of self-importance or superiority, either subtle or obvious, so they might tell themselves they are smarter than you, or they might prop themselves up with their sense of importance privately (which is the covert part)" This leads to you feeling lots of self-doubt and confusion.
For what it’s worth, in my experience, you couldn’t be more correct. Simply because a narcissist has a predominantly covert abuse style does not necessarily mean he is introverted, unpopular, unsuccessful, a failure, doesn’t boast, etc. There is no connection, to my knowledge, between general personality style (i.e., introversion and extroversion) and preferred abuse style (i.e., covert vs. overt). People don’t fit into little boxes like that. Saying *all* covert narcissists act such and such way and listing a million little red flags is not supported in the research and is, frankly, harmful.
For the narc I was married to its a great word for a man bedding most of my neighbors and I didn't even know it until the marriage was over
Thank you for this video. 👍🏾
Thank you so much ♥️ I know I've always truely wanted to be authentic and a good person. I just really didn't know what I had. I have hope for us. Vigilent narcissism sounds more accurate I guess. People seem to think that it's conscious... the problem with this type of narcissism I think is that it goes under the radar for longer because therapists don't all know about it.
Wow, this really makes sense. Thank you.. I really don't like labels, I do however, know there was abuse in my marriage.
My doc called it a superiority complex. Internal self belief that one is superior than all others, with some twisted empathy or projections that says my superiority would crush this person so I hide the fact or don't behavior as superior as I actually am.
There is nothing better then listening to a genuine Narcissist / psychopath explain this subject that's why my go to is Sam Vadkin by the way this is called switching.
Thankyou so much knowledge is power and i am looking for all the knowledge i can get trying to leave a covert but we have one child and one on the way it feels impossible at times
mamamanda Reviews,hope you are not with a narc 🙄 cause you are too precious 🌹🌹🌷🌷!
It's been almost a year since my last comment on this video, but I have a whole new perspective and a whole new understanding of things as far as my own life has been concerned, and I have a question for you, Dr. Malkin.
This one may not go over well, but I have discovered that the only cycle I have control over breaking is my own, so I am asking this not to excuse terrible behaviors from others, but rather to hopefully help people who have been a target of this type of behavior to empower themselves and take charge of their own healing and life experience.
In 2017, my family situation completely blew up. As I started waking up, everything started falling apart and my attempts at establishing new boundaries were met with a lot of resistance and fighting. It ended with one of my cats getting lost (we never found him and no one notified us until 2 weeks later), my parents changing the locks on our house without warning and holding our stuff and the rest of our pets hostage, a narcissistic woman separate from this bringing false accusations against one of my children after I dated her ex and she couldn't handle it, that same woman assaulting me, and my kids getting assaulted with apples and rocks being thrown at them by other kids the same weekend I got assaulted and my parents changed the locks. And this is just the tip of the iceberg, the "major" stuff, if you will.
Now... I have had to make peace with all of this very, very, very quickly because the entire time all of this was happening, my mom was also fighting cancer. I don't think anyone bothered to take the time to practice empathy (myself included because I was wrapped up in my spiritual awakening insanity and everything that entailed), which had the situation escalating and spiraling out of control.
The point being, I DIDN'T PRACTICE EMPATHY, EITHER. I was expecting it and feeling entitled to it from other people because they're "supposed to" have the answers, be wiser and older than me, but if they can't even be empathetic and understanding, why should I? I didn't show empathy for my mom and her emotional struggle with cancer (which she was suppressing and trying to stay "strong" through, so she turned to being "tough" rather than vulnerable and was acting out of fear), or the other family members and what they might have been experiencing.
So, while I may not have control over how they treat me now or in the future (or how they did in the past), I DO have control over what I contribute to the situation, and it's better to walk away and let it go than to feed the flames with more poison.
I was at the hospital this week. After a two and a half year battle with cancer, my mom passed away on Wednesday evening, 12/12. There were a lot of people there the day before she passed, and she was still able to see and smile at me at that point, and I saw her soul. It was a smile and a look I had never seen that I can recall consciously, although it looked very similar to the way my newborn babies would look at me.
On some level I had convinced myself that narcissists are less than human, a vampiric entity that is only out to feed on the magic of life rather than contributing to it. While dehumanizing them made it a little easier to separate from them, it isn't a healthy practice, and actually it is hypocritical because if we don't see their humanity and love it anyway, how can we expect them to see ours at all?
That brings me to my question for you, Doc:
What do you think about the idea that EVERYONE has toxic behaviors and ideas and belief systems on a spectrum? I think you may have already said this in at least one of your videos, but it's so much more satisfying when it finally sinks in, isn't it? ;) lol
The reason I'm asking this is because since I've gotten some distance from my family, I've noticed my own toxic behavior patterns and how I have hurt people without meaning to, just by not taking things into consideration. Not remembering to. I have also been able to notice a huge correlation between my emotional state of being and how my life plays out when I'm stressed and upset versus how my life plays out when I'm at peace. It's incredible to witness.
I have also noticed that being mean and telling cruel "jokes" isn't the only way to control another person (or try to). Kindness works, too, and is also dangerous because it is still a manipulation. It is still inauthentic and there is an ulterior motive.
Once I tried to manipulate someone into giving me something because I was too scared to ask for it (even though the answer would have undoubtedly been yes), which I hear is common among people who have CPTSD after narcissistic abuse.
Then I noticed I was still reading into things other people were doing and saying and trying to find ways in which I might be responsible, especially for the "bad" stuff. (If someone is stressed out, it's undoubtedly somehow my fault, right?) Then I realized that, nine times out of ten, what someone else is experiencing has nothing to do with me. So, take note: just because someone mumbles under their breath or complains or something doesn't mean it's got something to do with you if you're dealing with an emotionally healthy person. If you're dealing with a narcissist, not taking it personally means their manipulation attempts won't phase you, so either way, don't take it personally.
By thinking others' emotions were my responsibility, feeling paranoid, and looking for ulterior motives, I was adding toxic energy into the situation that wouldn't have been there had I not allowed my own thoughts and emotions to spiral out of control. It was my perception that was off in this situation, which is a humbling experience in and of itself because normally my intuition is spot on. BUT I had been living in a dimension of consciousness that was not loving but based in fear and control, and then I was thrown into a dimension of consciousness and a life situation where toxicity is on the outside looking in and the inner circle is a place of joy, high vibes, creativity, and fun.
SO... I have learned first-hand now that all of us are on the spectrum in some way, and we can all fall into toxic behavior patterns. The labels don't matter as much when you refine your discernment because arguing about the labels is another distraction from self-healing and genuine self-love. It keeps us arguing and attacking rather than embodying love, which would heal the entire collective if every individual chose to love themselves rather than poison themselves.
I am still learning, but it's been a year and now I see things completely differently because I'm not angry anymore. I ended up being exactly where I need to be, with exactly the people I needed to be with, doing exactly the things that I needed to be doing. I even started composing music again after a 17-year self-inflicted hiatus because I allowed someone else's discouraging opinion to influence my decisions.
And landing here required an utter leap of faith because I knew no one, didn't even have enough money to get in, and was prepared for people to turn on me almost immediately (because it happened twice in a row coming from people who claimed to "love" us, why wouldn't it happen coming from a stranger?) and us having to figure out how to get to the Walmart parking lot or something. In a 1978 RV that has no lights and won't start lol. So literally... absolute leap of faith, and this may be something we all have to experience, too. I decided I would rather live under a bridge than go back to an abusive environment, and I followed where life led me. We are still in transition and solving things, but things have been in constant flux, too, so we do what we can one day at a time and go from there.
I know that so many of us would love to see the light of revelation and understanding in the narcissist's eyes as they finally grasp how they've hurt us and how deep and far-reaching this toxicity is. However, if we don't want others to be controlling over us, we cannot be controlling over others. We cannot force an apology or force understanding. We cannot force them to expand their own perception, and many times they will see things in black and white, right and wrong, good and bad.
But what we CAN do is heal ourselves and be the type of person we choose to be, the type of person that resonates with our soul. I didn't want to fall into gossiping, so I chose not to participate. I didn't want to fall into bullying, so I chose not to participate. Now, I don't want to fall into toxic or self-damaging behavior patterns, so I choose to do my best in each moment, in each day, and heal myself so that I'm less likely to attract those types of experiences into my life, and so I can be strong enough and resilient enough on my own terms that I don't feel a desperate, codependent need for another person. And by the way, this makes space for a lot more genuine love as opposed to people who just want your attention and what you can do for them. It is reciprocal, not one-sided, and it's beautiful.
We're all connected, and we're all in this together. It's interesting to see what lies beyond the pain (I give it purpose or a lesson to dilute it and eventually heal it, and I do this as many times as it takes to work through it). Thank you for your work; without it I would not have been able to apply what I have learned and help myself the way I have been able to. I hope others are similarly inspired.
Thanks!
Jen
When you stay around toxic narcissists their toxicity rubs off on you. You will get what are called "narcissistic fleas" and the only way to rid yourself of these is to go no contact with the toxic people and heal. The fact that you have such insight and self-reflection proves you are not a narcissist and are not on their Cluster B "spectrum". You are a normal person forced to live in an abnormal, highly dysfunctional environment. When you roll around with dogs, you will pick up some fleas, so to speak. It's not you, it's THEM. Notice that they aren't the least bit concerned about their evil behavior but you are. That's the difference between a narcissist and a normal human being.
@@reesedaniel5835 Thank you for your reply and for taking the time to read my super long comment, lolol. I have never heard the fleas metaphor before, which is interesting.... So far low contact has been very good for me as well as my kids, and we're all aware of the types of behaviors to kind of look out for. Thank you so much for helping with validation; it can be tougher some days than others, understanding that the people I used to think loved me are not entirely sane.
And you're right... when I try to talk honestly with my dad, he is allowed to say whatever he wants but god forbid I speak my truth, you know? Or my teenagers ... if people don't fit the mold, they are rejected. That's why I am SO determined to not be that type of parent to my kids again, ever. We are at a point now where the teens feel comfortable opening up to me more and we are rebuilding trust, but I had to take a really good look at myself and how I was talking to them and treating them that would make them feel rejected, judged, not accepted, and unworthy of love.
To me, it's all programming... our lives/experiences/environments condition us into certain behaviors for survival, but when we choose to explore our own belief systems and realize that many of them don't even align with what we truly believe deep down, we can then consciously make a different decision.
Perspective really is everything... here;'s hoping to continuing to climb our way out of this weirdness, it literally feels like another dimension when you're going back and forth, and I know I'm not alone in that feeling. Time to make a more permanent shift ;).
Thank you! I hope you're enjoying your 2019 so far =).
Jen
@@JenniferCrystalJohnson you are too precious 🌹🌹🌷🌷 to be with a narc 🙄!
8 years ago I saw a very nice and helpful counselor however when I told her I think a divorce is best she scrunched her face up and said " Awww, you really want to do that???" She was catholic and that skewed her view. Present day: 8 years later I found a lot of horrific cheating behavior that involved sex rings and prostituting himself and others , even at 62. My 26 years with him was a horrible abusive mess. I confronted him 1 week ago today on Labor Day weekend. 1 hour later I was in cuffs being sectioned for saying " I wanted to kill myself and did drugs" .( Which I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED!) I was held in an unsafe, local hospital that was so insanely run, I was put on a gurney against the nurses station for 72 hours and was held against my will based on a LIE. None of my regular blood pressure meds and other meds I take were given to me the whole time, the kind you can't just stop were held., Especially 4 doses a day of blood pressure meds I've been on for 10years. There's nonmask wearing traumatic brain injury people lined up freaking out , singing hymns in Creole, screaming people, violent people,drunk etc as it was labor day weekend 2020. 24/7 for 3 days. Florescent lights, cops, traffic, food carts and unruly pts banging into my bed, great for my cptsd. Nurses and doctors condescending, rude and emotionally abusive to us all. I slept about 4 hours in 3 days. Just got out 4 days ago. I was NOT suicidal or on drugs but they had the right to hold me because of ONE PHONE CALL & family dysfunction and kids taking sides. I have no history of suicidal Ideation. So in 3 days I lost my kids, the narc, ( good thing). Talk about being discarded when they are done with you or you're no longer useful to them. He has 3 kids, 2 with me. At 62 the only people he has that talk to him are our kids and 1 friend. Burns everyone he crosses and it's usually a messy end. I'm a nurse and they called in a elder abuse claim too. Unreal. I don't abuse him, they said I verbally abuse him. No shit I was a normal woman reacting to horrific perverted infidelities and saying horrific stuff about me sexually and so many intimate things.Found tons of accounts online but he pretends he is cell phone illiterate. I hung on 26 years for this bullshit, and kept him out of a nursing home by taking care of him at home for 10 years cuz his body and liver is shot from years of drug abuse. I convinced myself I was staying to spare my kids of him destroying them eventually. They'd be stuck with him if I left. But now I have no choice , I'm homeless and jobless and carless, this is where I ended up. I gave to have police escort to get clothes and stuff. It was a blessing in disguise or I never would have gotten out. There's so so much more but the moral is: Don't cross them, it's not worth it, they are sick sick soulless beings and now at 57 I'm learning to care for me. Not sure how but I'm trying. The fact I told my primary doc and therapist years ago what I was going through helped me explain myself to the freaking zoom interview I had with some crisis therapist that heard me and understood narcs and sociopaths and believed I wasn't suicidal. There's never gonna be justice or closure or anything. Get out ASAP!!! I never ever thought he was " this bad". Tell your doctor's get it documented.
I don’t even like the term “narcissism” or the other separate disorders as they are referred to. Abusers are all pathological. Some more extreme than others. There should be a better scale - like you nail in this.
My mil has all of the dark tetrad traits, but I didn’t see it for over 20 years. Then holy shit. The entire in law family, run my the mother as it has from the early years of scapegoating my SO when she was too young to be held accountable for anything, dumped another family member’s huge and unchecked problems onto my s.o. , my daughter, and myself. And to avoid culpability (this is where I thought for awhile covert was the term) she manipulated anyone she could to construct a narrative that not only did we deserve it, but that she/they had nothing to do with it.
I’m starting to see my SO act toward me in the same way she has been treated by her family and it’s freaking me out. For all intents she has been kicked out of her family (she is the 3rd person that we know of to be towed out by her mother) and replaced by her adult daughter who was blackmailed and bribed to suddenly disappear and go with the silent treatment. She’s been bought a car. A house, and now they are paying for her wedding and her mother and I are excluded.
My SO was and is the target in a perfect model of abusive scapegoating that has continued on into adulthood and dramatically altered our lives and many opportunities who have had. Fear, Guilt, and obligation are what seem to hold her back from doing what needs to be done about it and I’m beginning to wonder if it’s even possible for us to continue together.
Wow EEE here. My abuse was isolation. My ex will never do a deep dive. He’s on to new supply. I’m reliving a 24 yr marriage.
This info is so helpful.
100%True.. he never shared his feelings, he was never opened up, never got close to me emotionally and talked about deep things, he was more of the listener.. he was not mean, he was not hatefu,l he was not abusive, in fact, he was super giving, showered me with gifts the whole time we were married and we were together 27 years. All he did was give give give to me and my daughter and do do do for me and my daughter but I also did 85% of the work too and we built a company together and we were successful but I'm the one that used my resources to start our company and in the end he got up, packed up his stuff, moved into his own place, got a girlfriend, got married, never looked back, never said a word, never said why, end of story.. one more thing, he was always happy, upbeat and fun to be with and everybody loved him and now everybody's in total and complete shock and they don't even understand how he switched from one amazing guy to a total crazy man.. we also went through a lot of trauma together and he had friends die and it really traumatized him and he had a nervous breakdown and he started drinking after 23 years.. there was a lot of contributing factors but I am still not sure if he was a complete narcissist or just had a few narcissistic Tendencies and I do believe he had some narcissistic Tendencies but so do I and I know a lot of people who do but we're not destructive people..
Thank you for your video and expertise! I would like to say that I was abused by a overt narcissistic female boss. Everyone knew she was ugly and she was ugly to all of us. We got to be each other’s support group. I was also abused by a female covert narcissistic. Everyone loves her thinks she a great person.She targeted me and it was under the radar. I have no support. I am now by myself and being mobbed by ppl that thinks she’s the victim. I’m a laughing stock for reporting to hr that she stared me down in the parking after I asked for another manager. My health is suffering, my career is suffering and my reputation is suffering. I’m suffering in silence and in plain sight. I will also say that when I saw a therapist while at my wits in she told me that what I was telling was made up science, she has several degrees and it’s hogwash. Gaslighting and manipulation dont exist. My crazy just mixed with boss’ crazy and I need to control myself better. This ofcourse made me feel worse. I dumped the doc and hr approved my move even though I’m scared the smear campaign is going to reach my new boss. For me, the term “covert” is integral to describe what I’m going thru. Thanks and God Bless😊
Thank you for a very instructing video.
Really interested in the idea that someone's "unique pain/sensitivity" can form the core of their narcissistic self image. Have you found any correlation between this type and the likelihood of clinging to things like the Myers-Briggs INFJ category? Could the much-vaunted "INFJ door slam" actually be a narcissistic discard?
Or maybe this is what's behind the INFJ doorslam
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/romance-redux/201609/8-common-long-lasting-effects-narcissistic-parenting
I'm an INFJ so I would really like to know what this is. We tend to soak up the emotions of others like a sponge, want to be there to help, take on other's problems, but when we get emotionally drained and overwhelmed, can sort of need to escape back into our shell. I wonder if that's what it is, I can imagine it would look like a door slam to the observer, but we usually have a lot of empathy, at times too much, and it gets physically painful and exhausting. Imagine other's feelings manifesting as physical pain in different parts of your body. That's kind of a daily occurrence when we are trying to help, and something we have to learn to cope with.
X is very secretive about his past relationships and what harm he's done to his former partners. I felt I needed to know all that I can to know if I'd be in a safe relationship with him but he refused to answer any of the questions I laid out for him. His silence told me all but he twisted his words and distorted his face to avoid my questions. He sensed I was onto him and then asked me "what are you getting at?" The lies and signs were all there!!!!! This is a man who pretends to love but is not in love with the one he's with. It was all make believe, it was then that I knew he was always up to no good. So I said I will not play with a player who plays dirty, he has 0 concerns for my well being. Nice way to live....NOT at all!!!
I have been married 27 years to a COVERT narcissist. I don’t like it, but it is what it is! Because you don’t like it, does not make it not true!
Cindi Rose,You deserve better
In my opinion Narcissists doesn't have the capability to realise what they are doing is abusive or fatal to their victims because they themselves believe that they are right good pure or something like that ...It's not intentional ..their abusive tactics are like coming from an involuntary response and they justify those actions to themselves & to others! And i agree with Dr. Malkin about the fact that Covert abuse and Covert narcissism are not the Same thing , (Manipulation is common in all abusive cases)..Covert abuse is like a symptom and Covert Narcissism is like a disease (Metaphorically). Like same symptoms can manifest in Different diseases. I also agree That Covert narcissism is directly related to hidden grandiose .
My mother always love to feel the grandiose of being the most pained ,abused, tortured, suffering soul on earth to whom all the horrible things have happened to. Then she compares my struggle with hers (which shouldn't be compared or competed at all) if i ever try to tell her that i'm suffering through something ..she says "i have it worse than you..you're young you'll get over it i'm getting old my life's finished etc.." Also that i abuse ,envy her ,can't stand her happiness , she sacrificed her life for me and i owe her everything..she's the victim and i'm the bad guy as if she's secretly plagiarising the information of my experiences and presenting it as hers ( idk what it's called) so my experiences are like invisible invalid irrelevant and everybody believes her ; She thinks my mental illness are my ill-manners which is ironic because she studies psychology ( i once told her "people's life gonna be more worse if you become a therapist" i literally provoked the T-rex oh the rage ).. but in front of Doctors oh she's so caring about me and the Doctors also believes her and thinks i'm delusional about her being somewhat abusive Basically none of the 7/8 psychologist/psychiatrist i went to have any idea what real narcissism is like OR maybe what i explained to them isn't written in the "DSM" ! She's enmeshing ,parentifies But says i treat her like a kid and she lets me becoz she loves me (i'm Like WTH) ; It's damaging & insane. My academic life have suffered greatly & still is ..
Anyway i think what Dr. Malkin is trying to say here is somewhat misunderstood by us because of the way he's explaining ( I myself replayed the video several times after reading the comments then i finally understood)..For example the term "Emotional phobia" seems common in overt/Extraverted Narcissists But not in the so called "Covert Narcissist" They set the Emotional trap ..stating how much of a tormented poor helpless victim they are..They like literally feed on the Sympathy, attention, empathy, pity they get from enablers or strangers .The thing is Covert narcissists are Also "Emotion phobic" But the way they present it is different..As they are Superficial ( All narcissists are) and they can't bear the thought of being left with just themselves facing their thoughts & feelings ..They throw their issues over the person in front of them they put it out there( in the disguise of "sharing their tragic life stories")so that they don't have to deal with it ..& Now it's the listener's headache (Which leaves the listener drained )..As a result it seems more insidious. However Overt/Extraverted & Covert/Introverted Narcissism isn't black 'n white ; a narcissist possesses both of the ideal Overt/Covert models which is expressed in varying forms with different intensities but the core materials are same. It's like the information on narcissism that's present out there are "The Fundamental formulas" and the Narcissists we deal with are complex equations that we have to understand/solve by deriving those formulas ! Because the manifestation of narcissism on people depends on factors like culture, environment/surrounding, family history etc.. However i don't think all the "Fundamental formulas" have been discovered yet .
my dad is a narcissist and now im a narcissist this shit gets inherited feels bad man!@!!
Very lucid and instructive.
Interesting. I have known extroverted narcissist who were covert in their behavior. It’s something to think about, that any narcissist can be covert it any time, thank you for this insight.
I’m not sure why others have commented that you’re blaming the victim and denying their experience, I didn’t hear that at all. Thank you for posting this.
Birdsong,hope you are not with a narc 🙄 cause you are too precious 🌹🌹🌷🌷!