Recognizing Extreme Narcissism Quickly
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- Опубліковано 23 чер 2024
- 00:00 Intro
00:33 What core feature is unique to all early warning signs of extreme narcissism?
01:40 What drives the vulnerability dodge?
03:43 What does the vulnerability dodge look like in extreme narcissism?
06:45 How to test for the vulnerability dodge
Recognizing Extreme Narcissism Quickly
Extreme narcissism has various tells that manifest early in interaction, and the basic pattern that drives all of them is especially easy to recognize. The vulnerability dodge is unique to extreme narcissism, and an early pattern that’s easily spotted and tested for without having to wait weeks or months of getting to know someone. In this video, learn about the vulnerability dodge, and how to recognize and test for it in your relationship.
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www.drcraigmalkin.com
I have a very narcissistic brother. Normally, he talks( lectures, pontificates, etc) and I listen. On one particular occasion, around the holidays, I decided to interrupt one of his nonstop monologues about himself by sharing something that had recently happened to ME that I thought was pretty cool. I had spent the holidays caroling with a choir that went around to nursing homes, juvenile detention centers, hospitals, and one of the places we’d gone to was the Veteran’s Administration hospital near UCLA. There, I told my brother, I met a patient, close to 100 years old, who’d been one of the soldiers who liberated Dachau. My brother’s response, after a beat of silence, was, “You know, Dachau wasn’t really an extermination camp.” The average person would have said, “Oh wow.” But he (in his own mind)got one-upped, felt less-than, and quickly needed to reestablish his superiority. It gets tiresome.
Fantastic example
Wow.
Oof, yikes. Reminds me of the time I went to lunch with my coworkers and watched an American Post Doc tell our Afghani grad student what Afghanistan was like. 😂 Like, dude grew up there, but do go on... 🤣
What stands out (for me) is you establish a longstanding pattern of narcissistic behavior prior to sharing your experience about your brother. If this were an isolated incident or a contrarian conversational style then I'd consider this person may not be a narcissist. As I'm doing here, I myself can be contrarian. But it has to do with how my brain works, (sensory processing sensitivity) has me noticing nuance in most everything. In your experience there's an intimate human element. Self-reflection, even in the moment while processing what you were sharing informs the listener (your brother) that the correctness of whether or not Dachau this or that doesn't matter. It's unimportant. What matters is the intimacy being shared between the two of you. Communion. Some people are able to process all of this in the moment and make the decision not to mention the accuracy about Dachau's history, some people can't process as quickly and without thinking blurt the historical facts out and there are those who can process quickly but choose to make the factual distinction about Dachau's history.
Each instance is example and is as a puzzle piece scattered on the floor of what makes up each one of us. It seems to me in that moment between you and your brother would require a bit of emotional processing. As I think about the Dachau story, I reflect on the human suffering involved. It's difficult to reflect on and internalize such things. And then the wonder of how he is still alive and able to share his experience. The beauty and the ugliness of the memory, and your Dachau story is a lot to take in. By reducing the experience down to the correctness of Dachau's history a person is able to avoid and/or have an answer for an emotional experience they're struggling to relate to or process. It's as Dr. Malkin mentioned, these maladaptive responses are largely unconscious and occur automatically. If your brother hit a wall of emptiness (not knowing "how-to" respond emotionally) in the moment then he is going to respond in a ways he knows "how-to" respond. And in this case, it was an intellectual (cognitive) response based on historical information and not an empathetic emotional response.
In understanding this, in this way, you are better able to have compassion for your brother. He's a prisoner trapped in his own Dachau personality system. I agree, it is tiring. Which is why I have gone no contact. We can hold space in our hearts for loved ones and do it from a distance. Thank you for sharing your story. The 100-year-old-man being in the nursing home with all of his stories, his memories of life, reminds me of the original movie Bladerunner. The famous "Tears in the Rain" scene. I'll leave it here for everyone to enjoy.
Tears in the Rain - Blade Runner (9/10) Movie CLIP (1982) HD
ua-cam.com/video/HU7Ga7qTLDU/v-deo.html
Why is that a perfect example? He simply behaves differently than expected. You actually expect him to praise you. So it comes across.
He doesn't and you feel bad about it. What he does though, he is stating a fact. Try to think why you really shared he story. I mean really why? What was your motive?
When you think about it, it's really heartbreaking. It must be so painful to exist like this. Mind you, I've suffered quite a bit from narcissistic abuse, but it's hard not to feel compassion for someone who suffers so deeply themselves. I have just about given up on my relationship with my brother. My next step, and final attempt, is to call him out and demand he get help. I know this is ill-advised, but I can no longer cope. At this point, I'm not sure I even care if I lose him in my life. There don't seem to be any viable options for the loved ones of extreme narcissists. Every resource that I research, suggests that it is a lost cause. I've been trying to figure this "problem" out for such a long time; makes one feel quite helpless. If anyone has ever waged a successful "intervention", I'm all ears!
The example was VERY helpful. I went head on and kindly asked that he not not inject his opinion, give advice unless I explicitly ask. The reaction was anger and defensiveness, told me it was about my history. I ended it.
Thank you for this. Just realized someone I know is an extreme narcissist. Projects everything & puts on a facade of "confidence" that's clearly insecurity. Sad but sooo manipulative too. And I don't know that they'll ever be able to help themselves.
I discovered recently on thinking back to the beginning of my relationship, with what seems to be an ASPD (?), an extreme narc . We were 21 and i did grow up in abusive home, i was a very anxious person and also very self critical. My narc partner was so attractive to me because he had absolutely no anxiety about anything and was incredibly self appreciative. I was genuinely impressed by his ability to do absolutely ANYTHING without batting an eyelid, mostly only chuckling to himself how successful he always was, when i fretted and worried all the time. I wanted to be like him. Turned out these traits were also excellent for him to commit crimes, fraud, speeding constantly at >200kph, and doing it all with me in tow...... 😖🤯 not so impressive as time went on. 36 years later, still hate cars, struggling to survive etc. even after no contact for a decade. He did all the red flags upon first meeting - charm, fast car, mr helpful, expensive presents. Thats my take 😃 some of them are so easy to pick quickly, if only we knew that decades ago. Anyway, all that speaks to your theory of Vulnerability Dodge. Im fascinated that i found that attractive, because i felt so vulnerable myself.
Yes, it's another good sign (one of so many) of the vulnerability of narcissistic people, but in my case it was the constant defensiveness, even about such small things as a difference of opinion, that had me walking on eggshells most of the time around my friend. I learned to keep quiet about my opinions and only express those that were in agreement. I couldn't be myself. At the time I knew nothing about narcissism, just regarded her as not an 'easy' person. Only as things between us got worse and she had an angry meltdown, did I suspect a personality disorder and started researching, did the pennies start to drop.
And you think they are caring about you.
Giving you good suggestions
But instead they are
Manipulating you
So you don’t understand them until you find out over time that they are taking you down!
This is why it is so to trust anyone anymore !!!!!!!
First time finding you! Your voice is really nice and soothing! I guess psyche doctors have that smooth alluring calming voice usually! 😁
I definitely have the opinion/personal experience that the signature move/telltale sign of someone with an NPD emotional core is the emotional projection component (of negative feelings). [+ coupled with strong emotional denial characteristic makes perfect sense as it is generally a prerequisite].
The projection can be quite subtle and underhand too, although definitely not always the case.
I emphasize that projection is the key component because a desire to not to discuss emotions relating to vulnerability coupled with a strong emotional self sufficiency drive can apply as well those who suffer from Avoidant Personality Disorder.
I have a friend who exhibits APD traits but is given an extremely hard time by other peers (accusations of being "cold", "mean" & "uncaring") even though they never gaslight, rage out, gossip, covet the limelight or throw around any negative accusations of others (in private or public).
False accusations of being selfish to such types can be quite harmful. Unsurprisingly my friend simply runs away from the crowd even more as a result, even though he is in an extremely tough personal situation and in a form of "survival mode" and in reality, could do with a bit more support.
It is great that NPD is being discussed much more now and taken more seriously. Having said that, I have noticed people throwing around the accusations of "being a narcissist" with way too much abandon and an extreme lack of analysis or understanding in certain circles (looking at tabloid journalists/social media especially).
I hope one day the right balance on the NPD discussion and the best methods to deal with it will be found.
I agree with most of this and I’ve discussed projection and denial at length in previous videos. At the same time projection is not unique to narcissism and pairing with self-sufficiency is not what makes it unique to narcissism-it’s the pairing of the vulnerability dodge with self-enhancement or the drive to feel special (which can be positive or negative)
@@CraigMalkin That makes sense, I am very far away from being any expert so I'm sure full blown scientific research is far more precise than merely my personal observations! I will bear all of this in mind in the future. Thank you for the reply!
2:00 self enhancement
super helpful! Thanks!
I know, you order a porterhouse and see if they reach over and cut the filet out and take it. Happen to me.
When they do something so extreme, irrational that has a self preoccupation or jealousy it can be very obvious. You speak of their avoiding others. Yes, in my marriage I was expected to not have close friends. And yes he never shared anything personal with others. The anger and defensiveness were present. Yes.
Very helpful, thanks 😊🍁
Wow. So, so true.
this isa very helpful - thank you. I've got a friend who has been doing this recently I think - a couple of things have been really weird!
I am grateful counselors are aware this may be a cause of sudden mental health symptoms and trauma. My abuser sabotaged everything I did as well.
What about the genetic components? My husband is a covert narcissist but he did not do the parenting. He was too busy “working “ in a very high position in finance. Didn’t really care about my daughters and me. I was truly a very good mother. My older daughter was a very big problem very early on. I’m not a narcissist. I have been in intensive therapy and point blank asked 2 therapists. One specialized in narcissistic personality disorder. I am an extreme empath which has caused me a lot of pain. My daughter has had eating disorders from the age of 8. Was diagnosed as bipolar at 15. Conducted disorder at 15 when she threatened to kill me in my sleep when I came out of the bathroom and she was lying on my bed with a chilling smirk. Then malignant narcissist at about age 20. I did everything possible to help her. Alone. My husband said nothing was wrong with her and that I was crazy despite the havoc she caused to everyone close to her especially me. It didn’t bother him. She’s 43 and worse than ever. Abusing me, my husband now that we’re elderly and sick. Her husband. Worst of all her 4 young children. Others along the way. She’s a psychopath. She’s terrifying doing horrific things that no one would believe. There are others like her in the family. Nephew diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, also his mother-my sister is a sociopath. My father was an abusive narcissist. My father in law was bipolar. Mother in law a narcissist and schizophrenic. There has to be a genetic component here. Her childhood was very loving and supportive as far as I was concerned.
I have framily who sometimes question my choices and I welcome it even when it’s uncomfortable but there’s certain people (who I suspect are high on the N spectrum) where it creates incredible ick.
I think I still have some trouble determining what is healthy in me vs indicative of maladaptive/overly defensive behavior in myself.
I'm a little confused. I think that covert narcissists often expres those feelings, but they don't want to go deeply and only are hunting shallow form of ‘nice words' to feel better. If you try to go deep down and make questions to understand better, they get angry. Maybe this can be some form of play the victim as well.
In the reverse mode i totally agree! They always take this kind of questions as threats.
Shallow words definitely don’t count. Sounds like you’re actually clear about the pattern and not confused at all :-) See my previous video on emotionality vs emotion
@@CraigMalkin thank you.
Im sorry if i don't expres what i want to say clearly. I need to enhace my English.
I tried to say that covert narcissists often want that you offer some nice words to them as an answer when they complain about something. But just that, no more; if you try to go deeper, they get easily upset.
I saw the video about ‘emotion vs emotionality' some time ago. It's a very good one, they often do that. 😬
Greetings from México. Very nice work!
If you go deep down you must travel through the false self of the narcissist to get to the other side of their narcissistic personality construct where the real self exists in a void. The I AM that never developed itself but instead took refuge in a false self. The narcissist's identity and overall sense of reality lies in their false self construct. Without this personality construct "Who are they?" The answer to this question terrifies them. They might not consciously process it in the way I'm expressing my thoughts of this subject to you here. But this is my interpretation of what you're describing based on my research on this topic. The shallow words are surface. Just as their false self construct is surface. By engaging them on a surface level it protects their sense of self, their false self, their identity. My thoughts are based on research I've done in order to better understand myself and family members. However, I'm not a professional. This is only my opinion. It's only my perspective based on what I've read on this subject and what I've experienced in my relationships with narcissists.
Thank you, Doctor. Self-enhancement could mean, someone who plays the victim card? That is problematic for those of us who want to support someone without enabling.
Correct!
liked man it's been a while
There’s other new ones-been doing weekly since April or so :-)
@CraigMalkin Thank you for your videos. I have found them very informative and helpful. One question: Given that, as you describe it, people with this condition behave as they do to avoid vulnerability and feel special - this implies that they are effectively unable or unwilling to 'face themselves' honestly. Do you have experience with clients who have radically chosen to confront these vulnerabilities? Can it lead to 'recovery' ?
Ah, yes. The over-the-top pushback when you express care and concern…
You: Hey, you doing okay? You seem upset and you’ve been really quiet tonight.
Them: I’m fine.
You: Okay. Well, if there’s anything you wanna talk about, you know I’m here for you.
Them: I SAID I’M FINE! But since you’re just gonna keep pushing me about it maybe I should leave!
You: 😳
That is major mental gymnastics and it’s automatic.
What you didn’t mention is that the kind of micro managing you described with the girl and her partner would have had a completely different context had there been nobody looking on. They micro manage to feel special BUT the reason for that particular kind is that the don’t want you to do the thing and they know that’s not acceptable to restrict another person’s autonomy so they do that instead of coming right out with preventing you from doing it if there’s an audience or if they’re not in a position to get away with it. They don’t want you to do things yourself. They don’t trust you and they want anyone else getting the attention they deserve. They’d rather keep you in a sealed box for their own convenience than have you interacting where they can’t control what’s going on.
Sooo I went outside and very kindly stated to family and friends that my feelings were hurt due to I didn't even get a birthday card from some for my birthday and a niece of mine became furious when I stated how I felt ..then it turned into a big problem because I shared my feelings...she's been non stop ridiculing me ever since ..I'm shocked and hurt nevertheless I told her I loved her and thanks for visiting and Left it at that ...she just keeps going on about it .. pretty sure she has NPD ..
Ugh. Definitely sounds consistent with it. I’m sorry-and good for you for staying your feelings clearly. That helps you stay grounded in your own needs and feelings in yourself and has benefits even if the listener rejects it (and even though that hurts)
What I find puzzling is that you say something along the lines of "this is what the partner of my client was doing, when he was standing over her shoulder". I find it often confusing that people, I mean you are an expert in this field, are able to explain the motives and emotions of others that led to certain actions.
Can you clarify?
I can try. You first explain the motives behind certain narcissistic behaviour then you atribute that behaviour to her ex boyfriend along with the motives. The behaviour can be mistaken, taken out of context etc. It is very difficult to judge from a distance about the motives and interests of that person in question.
Emotions, mindests, dispositions etc. may make certain behaviour likely, however it's a sense making process (basically a projection) to go from behaviour to disposition, emotion, mindset etc. Without further inquiry it's just not possible.
"Vulnerability dodge" is happening. I'm not denying it. But no one needs to be EXPECTED to talk about their vulnerabilities on demand or behave in certain ways.
So that way of reasoning: Person A seems to have acted in a way X, that means A has personality disorder 1. Thats intriguing but not very helpful.
It makes people run around and atribute narcissistic personality behaviour everywhere. Behaviour seldom happens in isolation, but it's interpreted and co-constructed within the environments it's happening. I don't mean to say that a person B is responsible for any behaviour of person A. Nevertheless B is part of the situation.
How about: What can I do when I observe person A to behave in a particular way?
What if you score high on the extreme narcissim scale, but have healthy narcissism and healthy echoism according to your test? I'm wondering what that means in terms of if I am a true narcissist, simply have higher traits, or if it is related to and expressed due to childhood ptsd. I am an INFJ on the Meyers Briggs Scale and I have a Fearful Avoidant attachment style, if that helps.
It could easily reflect the fearful avoidant style but also might reflect *some* narcissistic traits. Did you take the long NSS in my book or the less formal 9 item on my site ?
@@CraigMalkin Less formal 9 items test.
My guess is that you are probably not a narc, because majority of them wouldn't even take the tests, instead, they'd just project it onto someone else.
When I watch video's like these they are great but its not realistic for me. If I'm a psychologist sure its an easy thing to be vulnerable and real with people. But if you have any other job and are at that job or a sporting event or church or grocery store or anywhere most people are screwed up and its an unspoken rule to pretend all is well and keep all things very shallow and people honestly wouldn't ask someone about how they are "really" doing unless you know them very well. And if you don't have the money for expensive therapy you are doomed to a life of misery pretty much, it is that bleak and desperate when talking about a persons mental health.