The opening spd has certain limitations, but it works on EVERY version of World Warrior AND Champion Edition (where I became proficient with it): 1) Frame-perfect=there's no "window" for it, there's exactly 1 frame where it's possible; the first frame where the letters "FIGHT" disappear. Meaning your input must be completed on that frame & no other 2) certain characters are NEVER in range for opening spd: dictator, claw, and dahlsim...anyone else can be reliably spd'd off the bat. Those characters CAN be opening spd'd IF they hit a button that extends their hit boxes on that same opening frame while Zangief simultaneously completes his spd input on that same frame (i.e. if any of them start off sliding on the first frame), but under no other circumstances. Any other character can be opening spd'd even if they do nothing, or try to walk or jump back.
"Unwinnable matchups" could be a format for a mini series of its own! Lookin at really bad matchups and evaluating why they are so one sided would be funny and interesting :D
@@randomweeaboo cl.HP into Chicken Wing combos into itself as a blockstring several times in the corner against Chun Li, and her reversals are terrible. She wins the matchup as long as it's midscreen, but if Fei gets her in the corner it's really hard to get back out.
@@AgelessObsession it's not a true blockstring or no one could escape, reversal or not. Someone tried this on me in warmup for a tourney. But Chun has a 0f air throw. Problem solved.
@@rzzz5946 If they do it properly, it's really hard to escape, because for any of your option(jump/reversal tensho) you have to stand up for at least one frame before getting your invincible move out, so ou either get clipped, or forced into stand block and he can go for another loop. One solution is to kara cancel cr.jab into tensho, so you "skip" the standing frame. It's still hard but at least you can escape it.
Honda-Gief is one of the most lopsided matchups in ST, arguably _the_ most lopsided one that doesn't involve Akuma, to my knowledge. s.LP just invalidates Gief's entire movelist.
To me it sounds like the kind of thing that was lost in the details. That walk up forward honda does or even a short walk forward from geif is all that's required to be in range for the throw. I think it was a lot of "you can get the throw basically at the beginning of the match bro" that turned into "i remember getting thrown by geif at the beginning of a match".
That seems like a very possible sequence of events. A Honda was walking up and got grabbed at 99. Story of "I walked up and was grabbed at 99" became "could be grabbed at the start" and with patches is slowly morphed into what we have today
It's the whole "Animal Farm" debate again, the ol' "yes it does exist, but the proof is in something always unobtainable". When the beta is revealed and it's shown not to be the case, it'll then be moved to a rumour "oh it was a capcom tester who said so in the Alpha version" Etc. And be honest, how many people not only played the beta, but were also good enough in that short space of time before it was updated to not only discover the error, but also pull it off.
It's a textbook appeal to ignorance. There is no proof for it ever existing, but there is also no proof against it ever existing either. People are using that flimsy technicality as their whole argument.
@@charleswebb1674 if we are honest a video capturing just the screen is little evidence. Could very well be an altered ROM. And people say they saw this in arcades, yet the ROM in question is a Beta SNES which no common person would have had access back then. Reminds me of Billy Mitchell's supposed world records at Donkey Kong ^^
Basically how conspiracy theories operate. "THE GOVERNMENT IS TOTALLY MANIPULATING THE TRUTH." "Okay, can you prove that?" "I COULD IF THEY WEREN'T COVERING IT UP." >:|
For those of you who don’t know, it was discovered that this 10-0 MU did exist in an SNES beta version of the game (I remember seeing it on Twitter but I do not remember where to find footage of this matchup in that version).
I remember that in the SNES version it was possible to spd balrog beginning the match, but that trick only worked with bosses, I have no luck with the first opponents
@@dianauwu1312 Pretty sure that's just a way to try to justify a rumor because no one can test this since no one has the *beta* version, which makes me wonder how anyone would even have known about it being specifically the beta now, but not back then
I recall the early SF2 versions having some odd balancing choices. I used to main Blanka. If Blanka's rolling attack met E. Honda's super zutsuki it would one-shot Blanka. Literally 100 health to zero. Not fun, although I think it was fixed later.
Yeah, that was an accidental design oversight. Initially they were going to have "critical hurtboxes" where if you hit the right spots or hit certain moves, you'd deal extra damage, but then after Capcom changed their minds and decided against the feature, they still forgot to remove it from Blanka's rolling attack. It was left in by mistake.
@@usagijojo IIRC correctly, a certain frame of Ryu's dizzy animation had a similar oversight. It was mentioned in a tweet by one of the original game designers.
It's not a bad idea and I think many fighting games do have it, just not to that extent. It's basically a crit and it kinda makes sense to take more damage when you're not blocking or in the middle of an action.
@@usagijojo I think Dictator's Psycho Crusher and Claw's Flying Barcelona Attack also had weak hurtboxes in World Warrior. But they're unplayable bosses so that might have been intentional.
It'd be funny if there was a move Honda can do that immediately extend his hurtbox forward in a way that lets the SPD reach him and whoever first saw this was just a masher lmao
Wasn't there a version of Champion Edition where Zangief couldn't duck under Sagat's high tiger shot, and he couldn't jump over it? That's a 10-0 if so.
Longshot and I'm sure you already tried this...but is it possible for Gief to walk forward slightly and then SPD at a position and timing such that Honda can't jump out? I know SPD has instant startup and jump preframes can be thrown in SF2...so maybe? Probably not, though...
Unfortunately not, honda can jump or HHS (as SPD doesn't reach). The closest we got was using the proximity guard on f.MK to trap him in place but that still has counters.
From what I understand, when SF2 was in beta (location) testing they had found that Zangief was winning absurd amounts of games time after time. It’s possible that it, as you said, was in the beta that has not been publically released.
@@gizaha Just ask them for the version and let a TAS'er verify it or let a bunch of other people try to replicate it on that version. If only that one person can do that on that version, that is reason to doubt it's legitimacy. If they really want to prove it they can give additional proof
@@gizaha It's called reacting to someone, you said it could be cheated so I reacted to that with solutions. When you make statements you will find that this happens more often than you'd think
@@Bladieblah Read again what you said in the first comment. I said that someone would patch the rom with fake date in order to claim that this is a beta rom that only he has. Thus your second comment is not valid.
A matchup so vile the game version it was in was redacted from history. That would make a really funny creepypasta tbh. "Zangief beats E. Honda so hard he locks away the SF2 beta"
The SF2 devs have said in interviews a few times that one of the biggest changes they made after the first location test was a major Zangief nerf because somebody just bodied everybody who challenged him with Zangief. They overnerfed him which is why Zangief's hitboxes in WW are pretty bad. I find it hard to believe that this was the source of the rumor though - SPD is a really rough move to execute for a new player, would the first guy to ever play as Zangief, before anyone on the planet was "good" at fighting games, really have figured out such a memorable exploit with it, and then talked about it enough for people to remember? I don't think we'll be seeing this board dumped any time soon though - I very much doubt that it still exists.
Yoshiki Okamoto said there was a japanese location test player racking up a 60+ winning streak with Zangief in the beta of WW. He did not go into detail, but its on his youtube channel. I always thought the same. Like how can somebody be this dominant in a game that hasn't even come out yet.
I just saw this video today - and YES! YES it was real!! We used to witness it in the arcade all the time - The thing is .... it was 'nearly' always on an arcade box that had some sort of action replay device! You know, you could do fireballs in the air, no cooldown for sonic booms that sort of thing. So, I'm guessing that people are remembering matchups on those machines, where Zaingef really could just grab you right at the beginning, and there was nothing you could do about it!
I remember one of the arcade boxes had a glitch that would allow you as Ryu (probably Ken, too) that once you took away more of the enemy's life than yours, you can jump, do a helicopter kick, keep mashing the button, and you would float to the top of the screen and pop up near the bottom and you could keep going up. However, once you were up even just one screen, it was like you were completely off, as the enemy could not attack you at all. When time ran out, you won by default, and you would fall rapidly through all the screens you went up.
There's a lot of hidden history there. With Tekken 2, for example, the first version had a very doable infinite for Bruce (any launch into looping b+4,3 over and over); one of the original top Tekken players in the US (tomhilfiger) talked about Bruce being banned in Korean arcades during this time! This was removed in their next revision, so it's not widely known anymore.
YES! I"VE BEEN TESTING EVERY WW I"VE COME ACROSS FOR YEARS SINCE I FIRST HEARD OF THIS ABOUT 6 OR 7 YEARS AGO AND NEVER CAME ACROSS IT! I WILL ADD $100 CAD IF SOMEONE CAN GET VIDEO FOOTAGE FOR THIS
@@Rayuzx Yeah I was notified on twitter within minutes of her posting that. I've already been in contact with her. Paypal didn't want to convert to BRL so I was checking whether she wanted USD, or something else.
Yeah, it always sounded like a myth to me. The distance is just too great, either the fighters would have to be closer together (which I haven't seen) or Zangeifs hit box would have to be TRULY monstrous (and that would be more memorable than the 10-0). That leaves glitches which is possible but seems odd. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible but my gut has always steered me towards it being false.
@@charleswebb1674 Yep, although to be fair I was basing my judgement off it being a version of an arcade machine since those are actually played by the public. With it being a SNES beta my only guess is that the rumor started in the early days of emulation.
I severely doubt it. Even in the messy dev cycles of the 90s I really don't think that anyone on staff would look at the hitbox of SPD and allow it to reach anyone at the start of the round. Glitches can exist but they tend to be based on doing weird stuff that that confuses the game and in SF2 they seem to mostly involve hit boxes disappearing when they have boxes getting involved and not moving. The only glitch I could see working for is if there was some glitch that caused the starting position to be a little closer between characters.
@@CB66941 you can block projectiles @ full screen & spd counter anybody @@CB66941 ua-cam.com/video/pjH2X7gJMik/v-deo.html I stand corrected: you CAN do it in super turbo with O. Zangief
So if you do a SPD with Fierce on both sticks at the same time during the 1st round start, Gief will then transform into Hagger from Final Fight. But first you must defeat Sheng Long.
Shit bro that's cool but it ain't got shit on what dudes uncle at Nintendo told me?...he said after you beat S.L?....if you play mortal Kombat and make it to Shang TSUNG?...terry bogard be ones playable on both games
I'm pretty sure the myth has it's origins in "casual" play. A lot of young/casual players were aggressive and had a tendency to move forward as soon as they had control. If both did so on the first few frames in a Hondo/Zangeif matchup, the range would be right to start the combo. Over time, people remembered it as a completely lopsided match up to be avoided but forgot that forward movement was needed from both players for it to lead to the lock.
The most likely possibility, in my view, would be that someone just did not have the presence of mind to do something other than walk forward as E. Honda. It was most likely someone Young, as well as someone who had Honda as their favorite character and would walk forward against all the other enemies while almost never going up against zangief.
@TheoryFighter Actually, during the location test days of SF 2, the man himself ( Yoshiki Okamoto, back then he was the producer)has a video about a Zangief player who was beating everyone else and caught the attention of the Capcom employees who were sent there to watch the game balance and the reaction of the public in first hand, and he adds that "-Nowdays someone may say that Zangief is weak, but, that's your fault, the Zangief player that forced us to make him weak because nobody could beat you !" We could contact him on twitter or even on UA-cam to clear the circumstances around that matter during those days, because he also said on another video that Capcom employees were sent to the US and yes, he kind of specified the location test area on that video, if we could get everyone on Discord or Zoom to discuss this would be amazing, because I do believe that Capcom DID test the beta versions outside japan during those days ! Yoshiki Okamoto video talking about "the Zangief dude on the location test" is here : ua-cam.com/video/CKPp9TVwTSY/v-deo.html If you have someone in mind that can speak and write in Japanese, you may contact him, on his own UA-cam Channel, there are links to his Social media there as well, I hope that this information may be useful for you !
SvC isn't underrated at all. Latinamerica, China and Mid west play it like hell. It's a broken unpolished mess though. It needed more development time.
That's weird because I remember playing Turbo and Honda could basically walk around using hundred hand slap and make it so you as Zangief could never be in a position to hit him out of it.
Remember when SF2 first came to the SNES , people were always refering to Zangrief, because he was such a tough character to master. Clearly over the decades, that changed
I remember in about 1994, I was at an arcade, an older kid challenged me as I was playing the computer. He said choose which character he was. I smugly said zagnief. Well my chung li got her ass handed to her. Never saw someone use zagnief like that till then.
We are in the age of computer learning and tool assistants to test all of this kind of stuff. I would like to see machine learning soul calibur and the like going at it.
hard to set parameters for human apm and reaction time though. like a half-circle is around 1200 apm but obviously we can do it. But 1200 apm for a match is totally unsustainable. and the faster ppl can react the more defensive a game tends to be. An AI with perfect reflexes never gets hit. So it's possible 12-frame reaction soul calibur looks very different from 11-frame reaction.
I enjoy your process of ensuring credibility by refusing to dismiss the possibility that it exists. You work though all known vectors, expand your search, and continue. That's a very professional way to do it!
Somewhere in that “mythical” ROM are tables which define Zangief’s reach and Honda’s hit box. Increase either one sufficiently and that should do the trick.
As a kid growing up in Brooklyn that I was straight up punching with Chun Li and no one could beat me. It was the light jab and she would punch punch and throw you down. . Those were my sf2 glory days
I liked the spirit for chasing a myth. I recall that I could manage KO Sagat with only 2 LP DPs with perfect timing by whiff punishing his tiger uppercut in SF2 World Warrior. I searched it but there is no footage of that. It may be a good challenge to record that one.
@@TheSpectre2300 Fair enough, I know it is not a rumor but my point is I am not a good player and could not do it again and also couldn't find any footage of it with perfect KO.
I know the comments mentioned it already but perhaps this came from one of the console ports. Granted World Warrior was only on SNES (not counting the obviously drastically different 8bit and computer ports) but I guess it wouldnt hurt to check the Genesis version of Turbo. Perhaps someone misremembered "Special Champion Edition" (which despite the name was basically just the genesis version of Hyper Fighting) as being one of the early editions
Man the Genesis port/s were such garbage. I remember years ago I had to explain to my cousin who was ten years younger than me about how the Genesis controller didn't have enough buttons for a six button like SF but still had it anyway. He didn't believe me until I showed him a picture of the controller and booted up a ROM.
Good content! Something unique and new'ish ... its appreciated. I was subbed already but i never saw yiur vids on my feed ? But i will have you on my radar from now on.
Wasn't a "Zangief main" but I did notice the "extra range" on the USA and EU releases on the SNES. I know you're referring to the arcade version here. Just happy to see that there was an explanation for this :D.
I sort of found myself in this part of UA-cam. I'm amazed at the level of interest Street Fighter still draws. I used to play the original SNES version back in the day 30 years ago. Man that makes me start to feel old 😂
There was another one which I only saw once in the arcade many years ago (I was the one that actually did it) - short uppercut with Ryu taking over 3/4 health energy from Blanka when he was using the spinning roll attack. Almost 1 move kill!!
Early versions had character take critical damage If their special attacks got hit or countered. I remember taking nearly half of Bison's health when he psycho crushered into my electricity as Blanka. The charge back moves seem to be the ones that all suffered from this weakness.
I did that all the time with Zangief when I was a kid in arcade centers. It has a requirement, your opponent has to do something to expand his hitbox. Ryu always starts with a Hadoken, grab. On high difficulty Honda will use Hand Slap as first move, grab. If any of these didn't happen. You won't get it. Back in the days arcade centers loved to wind up the difficulty which it always have some moves at the start. If it's not a jump or moving back, you can pull this trick.
In Dissidia 012 for the PSP, Jecht vs Emperor is 0-10 in Emperor's favor on most tier lists. Granted that game never really had much of a competitive scene for a variety of reasons, but it's the only time I've ever seen a 0-10 matchup that didn't involve a banned character.
played on 1 of the first version in London goodge st where a capcom staff was present and also the first SF 2 tournament in London & never seen zangief spinning piledriver at the start... I call it highly unlikely considering at the beginning hardly anyone pick zangief also doing 2 hit combo + spinning piledriver that came later on.
As has been posted I clearly remember doing this once on my Japanese friend's Super Famicom, he had a Super Magicom (or one of it's variants) and his dad would bring back tons of games on floppy disk and on one trip he brought back (to the UK) SF2 World Warrior long before it'll have an official release here.
That might get the round-start SPD, but not in a way that would create the legendary 10-0 matchup, as all Honda players would have to do to avoid it would be t o not crouch-block to start.
When I played sf2 on the SNES with my friends (way back in the day) I have walked into spd as the round started a few times, and I was Honda on an at least one such occasion. Landing spd was mark of skill at the time so we’d spam 360 motion to land it. On that version it kinda did look like I got sucked in as soon as the round started. I think it could be a freak occurrence. One of my college suite mates swears that his brother threw him out of raging demon from full screen on alpha 2. They were never able to recreate that.
Even with a game this old and effectively obsolete, I would have to imagine at least one person would make a video if it were indeed possible. I suspect this is one of those gaming urban legends that just took on a life of its own.
@@mydemon Yes, but it was in the beta, so it's an arguable point how much it counts. I've yet to see evidence it can be done in any version of the game that actually saw release.
see, @TheoryFighter you really put in the effort. that's what makes you more trustworthy than the average r/streetfighter edgelord funhater. you tried it in every version of street fighter world warrior, which was probably a really tedious boring task, and then you posted the bounty and request in a bunch of places. there isnt much more you could have done. Real Science is testing things that have already been deemed proven, to see if they still hold up. you are a true FGC scientist, not just a videocreator
Nice video 😁👍 You can't made theory without using it in practice first, and I see you put all your efforts in this video just to hold your name Theory Fighter, respect
I seem to recall seeing a video where zanguief would pile drive people from across the screen but that would require him to move back to put some distance between characters.
This is gonna sound random but when I was a kid I was on holiday in Spain and I completed the street fighter 2 arcade game in the hotel. I used guile and I figured out a way to throw a very slow sonic boom thing and you could cover the screen in them. Once the first one hit you could just load up loads of very slow sonic booms and the opponent could not escape. It was so strange that I’ve remembered it to this day:
The CPU must do it. It's godly with Zangief. He would bolt forward using the facing direction as start and end the SPD command. The slower circle allows zangief to step forward for half of the command.
Considering the setup of the move forward, that actually seems like there might be another explanation that would also cover why the roms aren't working for it. It might have been a hardware bug that was rather minute but uncaught and thought a part of the game, something that has popped up in even modern consoles. Drift...the same things that the Nintendo Switch joy-cons have had since that came out and has been a relatively common mess with just about every joystick to some level over time. Basically, having something going wrong with the stick that it might register movement and start it just enough that it dumps him into range for it with hardware having the issue.
Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version. The bounty was claimed and discussed here: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
I never played World Warrior, but is there really not any way to beat the safejump tick throw setup by getting hit on purpose so the SPD comes out while you're in hitstun or something like that?
The bounty - twitter.com/TheoryFighter/status/1388419422210121728
SNES version.
The opening spd has certain limitations, but it works on EVERY version of World Warrior AND Champion Edition (where I became proficient with it):
1) Frame-perfect=there's no "window" for it, there's exactly 1 frame where it's possible; the first frame where the letters "FIGHT" disappear. Meaning your input must be completed on that frame & no other 2) certain characters are NEVER in range for opening spd: dictator, claw, and dahlsim...anyone else can be reliably spd'd off the bat. Those characters CAN be opening spd'd IF they hit a button that extends their hit boxes on that same opening frame while Zangief simultaneously completes his spd input on that same frame (i.e. if any of them start off sliding on the first frame), but under no other circumstances. Any other character can be opening spd'd even if they do nothing, or try to walk or jump back.
@@Comboman70 correct, but only the snes version of World Warrior, not Hyper Fighting
@@LIONTAMER3D Honestly, that doesn't sound too believable. Why just that frame? Got any footage?
@@LIONTAMER3D is it possible to SPD in one frame by hand?
"Unwinnable matchups" could be a format for a mini series of its own! Lookin at really bad matchups and evaluating why they are so one sided would be funny and interesting :D
Seconded
Yeah itd be cool
Thirded
Quadrupled
Quintupled
POV:
You're Chun-Li in Super Turbo and Fei Long has you in the corner.
What is the setup against Chun?
@@randomweeaboo cl.HP into Chicken Wing combos into itself as a blockstring several times in the corner against Chun Li, and her reversals are terrible. She wins the matchup as long as it's midscreen, but if Fei gets her in the corner it's really hard to get back out.
@@AgelessObsession it's not a true blockstring or no one could escape, reversal or not. Someone tried this on me in warmup for a tourney. But Chun has a 0f air throw. Problem solved.
@@rzzz5946 If they do it properly, it's really hard to escape, because for any of your option(jump/reversal tensho) you have to stand up for at least one frame before getting your invincible move out, so ou either get clipped, or forced into stand block and he can go for another loop.
One solution is to kara cancel cr.jab into tensho, so you "skip" the standing frame. It's still hard but at least you can escape it.
Don’t jump I learned my lesson
Whats weird, is that Honda is one of Gief's toughest matches in most variants of SF2. Especially if Honda gets a life lead.
Same here!
The Honda matchup Flowchart:
Opponent has a projectile --> Bad Matchup
Opponent doesn't have a projectile --> Good Matchup
Honda-Gief is one of the most lopsided matchups in ST, arguably _the_ most lopsided one that doesn't involve Akuma, to my knowledge. s.LP just invalidates Gief's entire movelist.
I hate E. Honda
@@micahlambert5726 that's the point, it's a myth, and it's contradictory
I've never noticed how "veiny" the vs is between the fighters name is
I just been that too
Oh man, I didn't need that pointed out to me lmao
lol
To me it sounds like the kind of thing that was lost in the details. That walk up forward honda does or even a short walk forward from geif is all that's required to be in range for the throw.
I think it was a lot of "you can get the throw basically at the beginning of the match bro" that turned into "i remember getting thrown by geif at the beginning of a match".
That seems like a very possible sequence of events. A Honda was walking up and got grabbed at 99.
Story of "I walked up and was grabbed at 99" became "could be grabbed at the start" and with patches is slowly morphed into what we have today
This is basically the Mandela effect of fighting games
Could be right? I thought of that too, this could be a Bernstein Bear situation :D
@@MrBroken030 You mean berenstain bears
@@huevonesunltd exactly :D
"Bernstein. Mel Bernstein. Chief detective, narcotics." -Antonio Montana
@@LIONTAMER3D foreskin fore
The round start SPD does exist, but there is a requirement to it:
First, you must defeat Sheng Lon--
hahahaah :D
Haha
So you must defeat Shen long for E. Honda to NOT have a chance? Sounds legit.
It's the whole "Animal Farm" debate again, the ol' "yes it does exist, but the proof is in something always unobtainable". When the beta is revealed and it's shown not to be the case, it'll then be moved to a rumour "oh it was a capcom tester who said so in the Alpha version" Etc.
And be honest, how many people not only played the beta, but were also good enough in that short space of time before it was updated to not only discover the error, but also pull it off.
Or only Todd Rogers did it by starting the game in second gear.
It's a textbook appeal to ignorance. There is no proof for it ever existing, but there is also no proof against it ever existing either. People are using that flimsy technicality as their whole argument.
@@charleswebb1674 if we are honest a video capturing just the screen is little evidence. Could very well be an altered ROM. And people say they saw this in arcades, yet the ROM in question is a Beta SNES which no common person would have had access back then.
Reminds me of Billy Mitchell's supposed world records at Donkey Kong ^^
@@Lovuschka Underrated comment.
Basically how conspiracy theories operate.
"THE GOVERNMENT IS TOTALLY MANIPULATING THE TRUTH."
"Okay, can you prove that?"
"I COULD IF THEY WEREN'T COVERING IT UP."
>:|
For those of you who don’t know, it was discovered that this 10-0 MU did exist in an SNES beta version of the game (I remember seeing it on Twitter but I do not remember where to find footage of this matchup in that version).
Do you have any info on this? I wanna play this rom lol
Proof? I want to know.
I remember that in the SNES version it was possible to spd balrog beginning the match, but that trick only worked with bosses, I have no luck with the first opponents
@@dianauwu1312 Pretty sure that's just a way to try to justify a rumor because no one can test this since no one has the *beta* version, which makes me wonder how anyone would even have known about it being specifically the beta now, but not back then
Huh??
I recall the early SF2 versions having some odd balancing choices. I used to main Blanka. If Blanka's rolling attack met E. Honda's super zutsuki it would one-shot Blanka. Literally 100 health to zero. Not fun, although I think it was fixed later.
Yeah, that was an accidental design oversight. Initially they were going to have "critical hurtboxes" where if you hit the right spots or hit certain moves, you'd deal extra damage, but then after Capcom changed their minds and decided against the feature, they still forgot to remove it from Blanka's rolling attack. It was left in by mistake.
@@usagijojo IIRC correctly, a certain frame of Ryu's dizzy animation had a similar oversight. It was mentioned in a tweet by one of the original game designers.
NECK FRACTURE- *FATAL*
XD
It's not a bad idea and I think many fighting games do have it, just not to that extent. It's basically a crit and it kinda makes sense to take more damage when you're not blocking or in the middle of an action.
@@usagijojo I think Dictator's Psycho Crusher and Claw's Flying Barcelona Attack also had weak hurtboxes in World Warrior.
But they're unplayable bosses so that might have been intentional.
It'd be funny if there was a move Honda can do that immediately extend his hurtbox forward in a way that lets the SPD reach him and whoever first saw this was just a masher lmao
I think that might be it, someone mashing, hundred slaps comes out, gets instant grabbed, become legend.
Pretty sure that's it tbh
exactly my thoughts. knowing old school honda noobs, they were probably mashing punches.
I haven't played WW in ages, but I'm pretty sure HHS didn't move forward yet.
Just posted the same idea. Should have scrolled down to your comment. Up voted
I thought about the matchups in Super Turbo that are simply depicted as “1” for like Zangief vs Akuma.
Wasn't there a version of Champion Edition where Zangief couldn't duck under Sagat's high tiger shot, and he couldn't jump over it? That's a 10-0 if so.
What about Lariat
@@LucasHpm believe it only had midsection invulnerability.
@@Hotobu you are right lairat had only midsection invisibility, Sagats high tiger would hit gif on his head.
It's was generally impossible for Zangief to get past tiger shot spam
It was his World Warrior version. Against Sagat, you would have to jump at him as soon as the round starts.
Longshot and I'm sure you already tried this...but is it possible for Gief to walk forward slightly and then SPD at a position and timing such that Honda can't jump out? I know SPD has instant startup and jump preframes can be thrown in SF2...so maybe? Probably not, though...
Unfortunately not, honda can jump or HHS (as SPD doesn't reach). The closest we got was using the proximity guard on f.MK to trap him in place but that still has counters.
@@dantedeloden that's terrifying
@@soggybread4583 i pick zangief.
If this was possible, then "[STREET FIGHTER] meets [PORKCHOP 'n FLATSCREEN]!" would have ended-and started-very differently…
@@dantedeloden ooooh wow
From what I understand, when SF2 was in beta (location) testing they had found that Zangief was winning absurd amounts of games time after time. It’s possible that it, as you said, was in the beta that has not been publically released.
I hope someone comes for that £100. This is pretty interesting. Great work so far trying to track it down.
Most likely someone will patch the rom with fake date and hack the honda hurtbox in order to work. That's what happens when you pay.
@@gizaha Just ask them for the version and let a TAS'er verify it or let a bunch of other people try to replicate it on that version. If only that one person can do that on that version, that is reason to doubt it's legitimacy. If they really want to prove it they can give additional proof
@@Bladieblah Me why? I don't care, i just told the dangers.
@@gizaha It's called reacting to someone, you said it could be cheated so I reacted to that with solutions. When you make statements you will find that this happens more often than you'd think
@@Bladieblah Read again what you said in the first comment. I said that someone would patch the rom with fake date in order to claim that this is a beta rom that only he has. Thus your second comment is not valid.
A matchup so vile the game version it was in was redacted from history. That would make a really funny creepypasta tbh. "Zangief beats E. Honda so hard he locks away the SF2 beta"
That is some melee Marth-tier grab range
Exactly lol
The SF2 devs have said in interviews a few times that one of the biggest changes they made after the first location test was a major Zangief nerf because somebody just bodied everybody who challenged him with Zangief. They overnerfed him which is why Zangief's hitboxes in WW are pretty bad. I find it hard to believe that this was the source of the rumor though - SPD is a really rough move to execute for a new player, would the first guy to ever play as Zangief, before anyone on the planet was "good" at fighting games, really have figured out such a memorable exploit with it, and then talked about it enough for people to remember?
I don't think we'll be seeing this board dumped any time soon though - I very much doubt that it still exists.
Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version:
mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
Yoshiki Okamoto said there was a japanese location test player racking up a 60+ winning streak with Zangief in the beta of WW. He did not go into detail, but its on his youtube channel. I always thought the same. Like how can somebody be this dominant in a game that hasn't even come out yet.
I just saw this video today - and YES! YES it was real!! We used to witness it in the arcade all the time - The thing is .... it was 'nearly' always on an arcade box that had some sort of action replay device! You know, you could do fireballs in the air, no cooldown for sonic booms that sort of thing. So, I'm guessing that people are remembering matchups on those machines, where Zaingef really could just grab you right at the beginning, and there was nothing you could do about it!
Ah, Rainbow Street Fighter
Is this the answer? @theoryfighter
This is what I thought as well. Street Fighter de Rodoviária.
i remember those in the arcades, those versions will definitely be omitted in the match-up bracket data for sure
I remember one of the arcade boxes had a glitch that would allow you as Ryu (probably Ken, too) that once you took away more of the enemy's life than yours, you can jump, do a helicopter kick, keep mashing the button, and you would float to the top of the screen and pop up near the bottom and you could keep going up. However, once you were up even just one screen, it was like you were completely off, as the enemy could not attack you at all. When time ran out, you won by default, and you would fall rapidly through all the screens you went up.
This yt channel is rapidly becoming one of the most interesting i'm subbed to. Auto watch tier.
I never knew arcade machines had balancing patch chips... This changed my perspective on a few things.
There's a lot of hidden history there. With Tekken 2, for example, the first version had a very doable infinite for Bruce (any launch into looping b+4,3 over and over); one of the original top Tekken players in the US (tomhilfiger) talked about Bruce being banned in Korean arcades during this time! This was removed in their next revision, so it's not widely known anymore.
YES! I"VE BEEN TESTING EVERY WW I"VE COME ACROSS FOR YEARS SINCE I FIRST HEARD OF THIS ABOUT 6 OR 7 YEARS AGO AND NEVER CAME ACROSS IT! I WILL ADD $100 CAD IF SOMEONE CAN GET VIDEO FOOTAGE FOR THIS
twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
@@Rayuzx Yeah I was notified on twitter within minutes of her posting that. I've already been in contact with her. Paypal didn't want to convert to BRL so I was checking whether she wanted USD, or something else.
World Warrior was some crazy, wonky stuff. The legendary "handcuffs" are a perfect example.
Yeah, it always sounded like a myth to me. The distance is just too great, either the fighters would have to be closer together (which I haven't seen) or Zangeifs hit box would have to be TRULY monstrous (and that would be more memorable than the 10-0). That leaves glitches which is possible but seems odd. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible but my gut has always steered me towards it being false.
Apparently not: twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
@@charleswebb1674 Yep, although to be fair I was basing my judgement off it being a version of an arcade machine since those are actually played by the public. With it being a SNES beta my only guess is that the rumor started in the early days of emulation.
@@charleswebb1674 Oh wow!
I severely doubt it. Even in the messy dev cycles of the 90s I really don't think that anyone on staff would look at the hitbox of SPD and allow it to reach anyone at the start of the round. Glitches can exist but they tend to be based on doing weird stuff that that confuses the game and in SF2 they seem to mostly involve hit boxes disappearing when they have boxes getting involved and not moving. The only glitch I could see working for is if there was some glitch that caused the starting position to be a little closer between characters.
Its been proven true:
mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
That SPD range on one of the versions is as if Honda teleported into Zangief's arms for an upside down hug
In Super Street Fighter 2 (not super turbo) Zangief has full-screen SPD range, one frame only =)
@@LIONTAMER3D now you got me interested. Does that have video proof? I know with Sim it's possible
@@CB66941 you can block projectiles @ full screen & spd counter anybody
@@CB66941 ua-cam.com/video/pjH2X7gJMik/v-deo.html
I stand corrected: you CAN do it in super turbo with O. Zangief
ua-cam.com/video/9qfezI-XpX0/v-deo.html
1 frame window
@@LIONTAMER3D lol the quality of the first one. I think I saw this before in a Zangief compilation. Thanks!
So if you do a SPD with Fierce on both sticks at the same time during the 1st round start, Gief will then transform into Hagger from Final Fight. But first you must defeat Sheng Long.
Ah yes. I remember hearing about this back in 1992 on the playground in 4th grade.
My uncle who worked at Nintendo told me about it.
Shit bro that's cool but it ain't got shit on what dudes uncle at Nintendo told me?...he said after you beat S.L?....if you play mortal Kombat and make it to Shang TSUNG?...terry bogard be ones playable on both games
Great vid 👏👏
My guess is Honda walked into it and people remember it as round start
It is a ridiculously distant grab after all
I'm pretty sure the myth has it's origins in "casual" play. A lot of young/casual players were aggressive and had a tendency to move forward as soon as they had control. If both did so on the first few frames in a Hondo/Zangeif matchup, the range would be right to start the combo. Over time, people remembered it as a completely lopsided match up to be avoided but forgot that forward movement was needed from both players for it to lead to the lock.
Also, Honda is a CHARGE character, he has to move backwards.
The most likely possibility, in my view, would be that someone just did not have the presence of mind to do something other than walk forward as E. Honda.
It was most likely someone Young, as well as someone who had Honda as their favorite character and would walk forward against all the other enemies while almost never going up against zangief.
@TheoryFighter
Actually, during the location test days of SF 2, the man himself ( Yoshiki Okamoto, back then he was the producer)has a video about a Zangief player who was beating everyone else and caught the attention of the Capcom employees who were sent there to watch the game balance and the reaction of the public in first hand, and he adds that "-Nowdays someone may say that Zangief is weak, but, that's your fault, the Zangief player that forced us to make him weak because nobody could beat you !" We could contact him on twitter or even on UA-cam to clear the circumstances around that matter during those days, because he also said on another video that Capcom employees were sent to the US and yes, he kind of specified the location test area on that video, if we could get everyone on Discord or Zoom to discuss this would be amazing, because I do believe that Capcom DID test the beta versions outside japan during those days !
Yoshiki Okamoto video talking about "the Zangief dude on the location test" is here :
ua-cam.com/video/CKPp9TVwTSY/v-deo.html
If you have someone in mind that can speak and write in Japanese, you may contact him, on his own UA-cam Channel, there are links to his Social media there as well, I hope that this information may be useful for you !
So cool of you to put up a bounty and such an interesting story. I’ll fire up the roms that I have just to check. Sending Good Vibes
Your content consistently gets better all the time. Great stuff
I love the dedication. I love the research. Great video. Thank you.
Could such a glaring oversight slip through Capcom's testing process?
Thank you, I'll be here all night.
Svc is a damn underrated game there should be a 2nd one someday
It was broken as hell but it had it's charm
Just like SF2 but not as broken
@@huevonesunltd sf2 is even worse broken wise but fun as hell
I'd rather have cvs3
SvC isn't underrated at all. Latinamerica, China and Mid west play it like hell.
It's a broken unpolished mess though. It needed more development time.
@@0f128 it's broken in a fun way, like roll cancelation in cvs2
The real SPD was the friends we made along the way.
4:06 Respect the commitment brotha. It's the kind of thing a help would be the best tho, what could take days might be done in 1 or 2h.
That's weird because I remember playing Turbo and Honda could basically walk around using hundred hand slap and make it so you as Zangief could never be in a position to hit him out of it.
Remember when SF2 first came to the SNES , people were always refering to Zangrief, because he was such a tough character to master. Clearly over the decades, that changed
I remember in about 1994, I was at an arcade, an older kid challenged me as I was playing the computer. He said choose which character he was. I smugly said zagnief. Well my chung li got her ass handed to her. Never saw someone use zagnief like that till then.
We are in the age of computer learning and tool assistants to test all of this kind of stuff. I would like to see machine learning soul calibur and the like going at it.
hard to set parameters for human apm and reaction time though. like a half-circle is around 1200 apm but obviously we can do it. But 1200 apm for a match is totally unsustainable.
and the faster ppl can react the more defensive a game tends to be. An AI with perfect reflexes never gets hit. So it's possible 12-frame reaction soul calibur looks very different from 11-frame reaction.
I enjoy your process of ensuring credibility by refusing to dismiss the possibility that it exists. You work though all known vectors, expand your search, and continue. That's a very professional way to do it!
Yo dude keep up the good work! I love these types of channels
Somewhere in that “mythical” ROM are tables which define Zangief’s reach and Honda’s hit box. Increase either one sufficiently and that should do the trick.
That piledriver range is wild.
As a kid growing up in Brooklyn that I was straight up punching with Chun Li and no one could beat me. It was the light jab and she would punch punch and throw you down. . Those were my sf2 glory days
Thanks for all the work you do!
I liked the spirit for chasing a myth.
I recall that I could manage KO Sagat with only 2 LP DPs with perfect timing by whiff punishing his tiger uppercut in SF2 World Warrior.
I searched it but there is no footage of that. It may be a good challenge to record that one.
That's not farfetched. Sagat DID take double damage if you punished a whiffed Uppercut in World Warrior.
@@TheSpectre2300 Fair enough, I know it is not a rumor but my point is I am not a good player and could not do it again and also couldn't find any footage of it with perfect KO.
Have u seen the damage from blanka,s roll into a dragon punch it’s about 70%
@@paulguthrie6736 Indeed I have!
I know the comments mentioned it already but perhaps this came from one of the console ports. Granted World Warrior was only on SNES (not counting the obviously drastically different 8bit and computer ports) but I guess it wouldnt hurt to check the Genesis version of Turbo. Perhaps someone misremembered "Special Champion Edition" (which despite the name was basically just the genesis version of Hyper Fighting) as being one of the early editions
Someone seems to have done it on the SNES beta version
twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
Man the Genesis port/s were such garbage. I remember years ago I had to explain to my cousin who was ten years younger than me about how the Genesis controller didn't have enough buttons for a six button like SF but still had it anyway. He didn't believe me until I showed him a picture of the controller and booted up a ROM.
I love these thorough research videos.
Thanks for your dedication in this. I would have never known
MANDELA EFFECT SPOTTED
Sean vs Chun-Li: SVC Chaos
2ndImp Sean vs Everyone in SF: SvC Chaos
Sean in SvC Chaos? Is this a meme I don't know about?
@@danobra it’s a real Game! PS2, XBOX AND DREAMCAST.
Good content! Something unique and new'ish ... its appreciated. I was subbed already but i never saw yiur vids on my feed ? But i will have you on my radar from now on.
Wasn't a "Zangief main" but I did notice the "extra range" on the USA and EU releases on the SNES. I know you're referring to the arcade version here. Just happy to see that there was an explanation for this :D.
I was expecting the 10-0 matchup to be in Honda’s favor. In SFII, he can’t jump over Honda’s Hundred-Hand Slap.
found u on reddit.
4:05 is why I subbed.
jesus that must have taken eons
I sort of found myself in this part of UA-cam. I'm amazed at the level of interest Street Fighter still draws. I used to play the original SNES version back in the day 30 years ago. Man that makes me start to feel old 😂
There was another one which I only saw once in the arcade many years ago (I was the one that actually did it) - short uppercut with Ryu taking over 3/4 health energy from Blanka when he was using the spinning roll attack. Almost 1 move kill!!
Early versions had character take critical damage If their special attacks got hit or countered. I remember taking nearly half of Bison's health when he psycho crushered into my electricity as Blanka. The charge back moves seem to be the ones that all suffered from this weakness.
It is possible on SNES version
What's the channel for the fighting game lore podcast you mentioned? I'd love to check out the full podcast.
I did that all the time with Zangief when I was a kid in arcade centers. It has a requirement, your opponent has to do something to expand his hitbox. Ryu always starts with a Hadoken, grab. On high difficulty Honda will use Hand Slap as first move, grab. If any of these didn't happen. You won't get it. Back in the days arcade centers loved to wind up the difficulty which it always have some moves at the start. If it's not a jump or moving back, you can pull this trick.
I always hated that "cheaty" AI. The CPU should have to play by the same rules the player does!
The video does not mention AI a single time
@@whirl3690 um, that's the whole premise.
No, it actually isn't. You watched the video, no?
@@whirl3690 yes it was, and yes I did
Tell me one of the points of the video that mentions AI.
Opening with Snk vs capcom chaos my 2nd fav fighting game of all time!!!
Nice.
Funny thing is I remember doing all those soft lock, crash, and other glitches on original sf2. Especially with Guile, dhalsim, etc.
what shader/filter settings are you using on FBNeo here?
Saw this discussion in the Alpha 2 discord. Really hope this gets solved!
Edit: yea it was found like, immediately after the video was posted lol
It's been "solved" a long time ago lol
The link has been added in the description. Someone found the version of SF2 where this 10-0 matchup exists.
@@mydemon it exists in every version lol
In Dissidia 012 for the PSP, Jecht vs Emperor is 0-10 in Emperor's favor on most tier lists. Granted that game never really had much of a competitive scene for a variety of reasons, but it's the only time I've ever seen a 0-10 matchup that didn't involve a banned character.
Why?
played on 1 of the first version in London goodge st where a capcom staff was present and also the first SF 2 tournament in London & never seen zangief spinning piledriver at the start... I call it highly unlikely considering at the beginning hardly anyone pick zangief also doing 2 hit combo + spinning piledriver that came later on.
As has been posted I clearly remember doing this once on my Japanese friend's Super Famicom, he had a Super Magicom (or one of it's variants) and his dad would bring back tons of games on floppy disk and on one trip he brought back (to the UK) SF2 World Warrior long before it'll have an official release here.
Did you try it with Honda crouch blocking? It may make his hurt box thicker.
That might get the round-start SPD, but not in a way that would create the legendary 10-0 matchup, as all Honda players would have to do to avoid it would be t o not crouch-block to start.
It would explain the mistaken memory though.
Did you try the console versions?
this is fascinating, and the music is tight
When I played sf2 on the SNES with my friends (way back in the day) I have walked into spd as the round started a few times, and I was Honda on an at least one such occasion. Landing spd was mark of skill at the time so we’d spam 360 motion to land it.
On that version it kinda did look like I got sucked in as soon as the round started. I think it could be a freak occurrence. One of my college suite mates swears that his brother threw him out of raging demon from full screen on alpha 2. They were never able to recreate that.
Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version:
mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
Even with a game this old and effectively obsolete, I would have to imagine at least one person would make a video if it were indeed possible. I suspect this is one of those gaming urban legends that just took on a life of its own.
twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
It's been found and the bounty has been paid. The update is in the video's description.
@@mydemon Yes, but it was in the beta, so it's an arguable point how much it counts. I've yet to see evidence it can be done in any version of the game that actually saw release.
see, @TheoryFighter you really put in the effort. that's what makes you more trustworthy than the average r/streetfighter edgelord funhater. you tried it in every version of street fighter world warrior, which was probably a really tedious boring task, and then you posted the bounty and request in a bunch of places. there isnt much more you could have done. Real Science is testing things that have already been deemed proven, to see if they still hold up. you are a true FGC scientist, not just a videocreator
Nice video 😁👍
You can't made theory without using it in practice first, and I see you put all your efforts in this video just to hold your name Theory Fighter, respect
I seem to recall seeing a video where zanguief would pile drive people from across the screen but that would require him to move back to put some distance between characters.
Good vid, worthy of an episode of Pop Fiction.
babe wake up new theory fighter video
Aaaa, funny seeing you here. 😃
This is gonna sound random but when I was a kid I was on holiday in Spain and I completed the street fighter 2 arcade game in the hotel. I used guile and I figured out a way to throw a very slow sonic boom thing and you could cover the screen in them. Once the first one hit you could just load up loads of very slow sonic booms and the opponent could not escape. It was so strange that I’ve remembered it to this day:
What emulator and filter are you using for the scan lines? It looks quite authentic?
Pretty sure the rainbow edition can SPD grab from any distance :D
Be careful man, someone may make a rom hack (modded rom) and sell it to you as the beta. In any case, good video :)
Holy shit you're right dude
The version has been found and verified. You can check the video description for the update.
Im so happy that you showed SPD. I thought you kept saying SVD and I was trying to figure out why it was called Spinning Vanerial Diesase 🤦
The CPU must do it. It's godly with Zangief. He would bolt forward using the facing direction as start and end the SPD command. The slower circle allows zangief to step forward for half of the command.
I thought it’s was gonna be about Dhalsim Gief lmao
The only 10-0 match up I've heard of is Akuma vs Gief in SF2, I expected that lol
@@Switcheroo4542 Akuma in SF2? O_o
@@Grogeous_Maximus super turbo, my bad
what about dhalsim getting grabbed when throwing a punch and hit with a spinning piledriver, or was that just a random bug
Not a hacked version like black belt or rainbow edition ?
Its been proven true on the SNES Beta version;
mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
WW was a wild game. Ohh the memories of a simpler time as a kid. The near-fights caused by accidental throws.
The fact that you re from europe too made me happy. Keep up the good work
Considering the setup of the move forward, that actually seems like there might be another explanation that would also cover why the roms aren't working for it.
It might have been a hardware bug that was rather minute but uncaught and thought a part of the game, something that has popped up in even modern consoles.
Drift...the same things that the Nintendo Switch joy-cons have had since that came out and has been a relatively common mess with just about every joystick to some level over time.
Basically, having something going wrong with the stick that it might register movement and start it just enough that it dumps him into range for it with hardware having the issue.
Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version:
mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
Could this be possible in the SNES port? Maybe since it's been a long time the games got confused but idk
We gotta have some people trying now.
Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version. The bounty was claimed and discussed here:
mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512
who remembers Guile's upsidedown roundhouse freeze handcuff and magic throw glitch? damn. i still remember the button sequence 30+years later
More in depth sf2 OG glitches quirks myths and legends 👏👏
Wait for people to mod the game just to try and get the bounty
That's why the ROM is a requirement!
@@TheoryFighter Ohh, gotcha! Very interested to see whether this actually exists or not
mandela effect mannn...
Dark Stalkers and Sumarii Showdown were two of my favorite games when I was younger.
I never played World Warrior, but is there really not any way to beat the safejump tick throw setup by getting hit on purpose so the SPD comes out while you're in hitstun or something like that?