David Artman / The Necessity Of Christian Universalism
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- “For it logically follows that if God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then God must also be all-saving.”
Often dismissed as a modern feel-good theology, Christian universalism is an ancient, orthodox, and biblical theology that was expounded by early Christians and early church fathers. Artman brings much-deserved attention to this wonderful spirituality.
In this conversation, David Artman shares that grace saves alone and goes to all. This inclusive approach to Christianity is variously called universal reconciliation, universal salvation, or perhaps most accurately, Christian universalism. David shares that the inclusive/Christian universalist approach is necessary because it offers the only Christian theology that successfully defends the goodness of God.
For more on David Artman
Website: www.davidartman.net
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Podcast intro and outro music by Wilde Assembly
I’m just learning about the restoration of all things and now about Christian Universalism, and I’m listening to Baxter Kruger… I’m so hungry for truth!🕊 While the discussion was going on, I ordered a Kindle copy of the book Grace Saves All. 😊
Before I close, I just want to say how it blesses me so much when I see men who love the Lord unashamedly and who give honor to each other. It’s such pure love and there is unity in Christ. ❤
I think we, the church, are ready for the measureless good news of a God in Christ reconciling and restoring all things!
At about 19:20 David Altman said that realizing the truth of UR was like having a born again experience. That is how I describe it for myself.
There is an awakening to the universal nature of reconciling love happening around the world today - so awesome!
@@JasonClarkIS-youtube Rev15:2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
The song of the Lamb is the testimony of universal salvation. The song of Moses is the witness against the psuedo-church of Christianity. Go back and read the song of Moses of Deut32. "For their rock is not like our rock, as even our enemies admit." - Deut32:31
Even non-believers see the hypocrisy and contradictions of the modern "Christian."
@@JasonClarkIS-youtube
you: "There is an awakening to the universal nature of reconciling love happening around the world today - so awesome!"
More likely a falling away - which means universalists were never saved to begin with. Salvation requires faith (Rom 5:1) and blood (Rom 5:9). Blood alone never saved anyone. Paul never said - hey - if you don't believe in this life - God will save you in the lake of fire. Universalism is heresy.
Glad about what you said about fundamental evangelicals. I grew up at Bob Jones University for 20 years. But I'm here now, took me 50 years, but I finally feel joy.
50 years to grow sure in love; it's a beautiful faith journey we are on! Thanks for sharing!
I graduated from Bob Jones! I am so glad Jesus delivered me from that jackassery.
Our Saviour knew the life-ring wouldn't work when the hands of man are too cold to grab on, or when the splashing about of man hides its location. Our Saviour knew the life-ring would fail when the lungs of man fill with water, losing consciousness, and begins to sink into oblivion. Our Saviour set aside the life-ring and jumped overboard himself. Our Saviour then himself descended towards oblivion beneath the surface of the water finding each one of us and dragging us ashore one at a time.
God makes us alive in Christ when we were yet without hope. Every man in his own order.
nice!
“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11) so many scriptures are like this so we know it was taught from the very beginning.
So good!
@@JasonClarkIS-youtube that's right and very optimistic.
I believe that some refer to this as "Universalist Calvinism." The Elect are the ones who receive the Good News of their salvation right away and begin working it out in their lives immediately,
while for the reprobate, it may take a lifetime of banging it into their heads and hearts before they finally get it.
I wonder how many people, like me, realized that they truly didn't believe in hell FIRST, and then looked into the theological defence after. The actual internalizing of my faith forced hell out.
I love Thomas Oords phrase, "the logic of love" eventually confronts a theology of hell.
@@TheProdigalsDiary Awesome! Sometimes atheism is a necessary step towards faith.
Oh indeed how much more better would this world be if universal reconciliation was preached to all.
Amen :)
I agree and believe with all my heart it will happen
What do we do with all the angry wrath scriptures? I'm so distressed by these passages.
Example, Psalm 5:5- 6
Hey, I would encourage reading Brad Jersaks A More Christlike Word as it helps provide a Christocentric method by which to interpret Scripture. Jesus revealed what God is like and through Him, we can revisit words like "wrath" and discover a love that is transforming and reconciling us. I would recommend this podcast afamilystory.org/2023/07/jared-neusch-a-christ-centric-hermeneutic-a-non-violent-god/ as well
@@cherylwilliams4738
And I would encourage listening to George Macdonald's sermon on "Justice" and "Our God is a Consuming Fire". They're on Utube.
“For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made.” (Isaiah 57:16)
Nice!
I've been thinking about this topic almost daily for over a year now. I was raised Baptist/non-denominational. I started reading comments from atheists and the like and it really got me thinking. I'm fairly certain that if we indeed have a loving omnipotent Creator, anything but Universalism doesn't make much sense. David certainly mentioned many of the logical problems I've been thinking about.
I like a lot of videos from the channel Total Victory of Christ who discusses a lot of these tough questions and the translation of the Greek word aeon meaning 'age-abiding'.
It's troubling to me that it seems most of my fellow Christians are in agreeance that most of humanity is apparently going to an unimaginable torture upon their death, despite our attempts to spread the Gospel. I really think it's because they don't sincerely believe what they say they do. Such a punishment is incomprehensible to our mind.
I still think it is certainly important to spread the Gospel so that more people will come to be followers of Jesus and have reverence for our Creator in this life. I feel those who are not saved in this life will have some sort of temporary afterlife punishment in proportion to their sins in this life. I still don't take this belief as a license for anyone to sin. I believe I am fairly conservative.
Love your thoughts and the journey you're on - I think many are no longer willing to do mental gymnastics around a good God who punishes.
It's been so good connecting with folks like David and chasing down the goodness of God in these conversations!
Read or listen to George Macdonald from the 1880, especially book 3 of untitled sermons. It'll rock your world in a good way, it's on utube.
@@toddburtner9676 Thank you. I'll check it out. Is it Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald - Audiobook ( Part 3/3 )?
I am glad I have been “Awakened” to these truths❤️
YES!
Bought the book yesterday after seeing it on Amazon, never heard of you guys and then this video popped up in my recommended today. Definitely looking forward to seeing it all fleshed out a bit more. Thanks guys! And thanks David!
Oh my goodness, love this guy. Got to get this book! Love that he is unapologetic! I’ve never understood the Apologists (apologetics) we have nothing to apologise for!
Loved this conversation and the book is incredible.
No sane and fully informed person would ever choose to reject God's love!
An excellent conversation! Embracing Christianity in mid life I too accepted literal Fundamentalist Biblical interpretations. However my heart was always open as I meditated while reading my Bible. Some views began to change, and being introduced to the subject of a Christ centred universal restoration I began to seek to find. The likes of Bradley Jerzak Robin Parry Baxter Kruger Paul Young and so many others opened the eyes of my heart, to see a more loving gracious and merciful God to the God that I knew before. Thank you Father! Thank you Jesus! And thank you Holy Spirit the indwelling Christ in ALL.
So thankful for all those names and more - we are in the midst of a beautiful awakening!
@@JasonClarkIS-youtube lets pray so !
16:55 Yea, if God knew sin was going to happen and still created the world knowing He would have to destroy much of it, it wouldn't make Him good. It was hard for me to reconcile. Plus I always wanted Jesus to reconcile with Judas.
Love it!
On my search for deeper revelation of Jesus's love. Brother this is good
Magnifique je viens d'acheter le livre. Merci beaucoup pour ce que vous faites!
Hope it blesses!
I became a Christian Universalist last year before I knew anything about the terminology which affirms my belief even more. I have had a supernatural revelation over the course of a couple months where God revealed the truth of his mercy and grace without me intentionally seeking the answers to a question I passively asked in my mind. I simply said to myself “what if Gods love and Grace and Mercy is so great it extends beyond damnation?” I shook my head like that was a crazy thought then the very next day I was researching Samson and came across a podcast that talked about fire and hell and the actual word that is translated as eternity and my mind was blown 🤯 then every time I thought about God saving everyone and the lake of fire not exclusively being punishment but rather an atonement process, the lord kept leading me to passages where he repeats over and over and over that his love and mercy endures forever! I couldn’t reconcile this with eternal damnation. Then what sealed the deal was one day when I read the parable of the unforgiving debtor. At the very end Jesus himself says “the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt”, not another person, but until he himself was able to pay the debt. While I think in reality a person will have to pay for their sins for a reeeeeeeaalllyyy long time, I do believe that any speck of disbelief or rebellion is purged out of them in the lake of fire during that time so that when they meet Jesus again they will be incapable of denying him.
“Hell is meant to serve as an echo of the infinite value of the glory of God, such that if you turn away from the glory of God as your treasure and your life and embrace the broken cisterns of the world, hell defines the heinousness of that sin and the greatness of that glory.” John Piper, The Echo and the Insufficiency of Hell
I'm both a strict Unitarian and a convinced Universalist, but biblically both and not a member of the new-age Unitarian Universalist denomination.
Nice to meet you.
YES. Let's just have a good conversation!
We just scratched the surface!
1:04:46 What is the play that is called at the end of a game when a football team is losing and has a long way to go? A HAIL MARY!
#jasonclark
What do you say to the people who say “what about murders and really bad people who never repented “ then what??
This conversation is a great example of how even our own language/words to explain ideas, things, etc. fails us. How 'universal' can be understood given multiple contexts and who it's said around...and the word 'Christian' in other contexts with its own baggage, etc.
It's really hard to have conversations when our language fails us - I am glad to see/hear nuances explained.
Love this MUCH NEEDED discussion! Thank you for this
Agreed, David is awesome!
In my view, ya gotta add sliced, pickled jalapeños to a taco to make it the best it can be.
Sliced pickled jalapeños makes every meal better.
I'm a universalist, but also believe in the fact of condign punishment. Universalists shouldn't approve of sin in a lackadaisical manner or expect that there won't be any penalties or retribution for it.
I think sin is its own punishment, and I'm daily growing confident that God is in Christ stepping into the heart of our hellish retributive delusion and reconciling and restoring us to the truth that sets free. In this life and the next.
that was so good and very much needed thanks so much
Love nd appreciate you believers!!! Thank you for reiterating the real actual factual forever GOOD NEWS!
"...the actual factual GOOD NEWS!!" Amen :)
God is still creating us. Redemption is part of the process. The only finished man iid Jesus Christ. Find writings by A P Adams. I don't agree with everything but he opened my eyes to do much.
Very cool!
We are all dreaming this
Now I want tacos!
Just bought your book online. I always thought universalism sounds too good to be true (and although I'm still holding to that position - I believe in conditional immortality atm) I'm very open for a surprise 😀 One thing that always seemed odd to me is: the Bible says that all men became sinners through Adam and all will be saved through Jesus... but then, Jesus sacrifice doesn't really save all (Romans 5:12-21)?
I loved this conversation. I may not be on all the same pages as David, but love to connect with people who are chasing down the goodness of God.
Appreciate your thoughts as well!
I would like to know Baxter Kruger’s opinion on him.
Me too, haha. next time we meet, I'll have to ask :)
“We think” 31:00 sounds a lot like the way the Pharisees would confer amongst themselves to decide what “they” thought about something Jesus said.
I checked out the time stamp, I don't follow?
@@JasonClarkIS-youtube Around 31:25. It's just a comment about the churches he grew up in, and what their mindset was.
My big question: but I have always heard that God Gives us freedom to choose and he respects our free will if we want accept Jesus or not.I am seeking for truth already for a long time and how i hope that Grace is much bigger as i always heard,
I loved this conversation. David has a conviction and makes a beautiful case for a grace that, as you noted, is much bigger than we have heard.
My thoughts are, we are free to choose, but as we awaken to love, we can't help but repent (change the way we think) as we are created in loved image and likeness.
A whole person chooses wholeness. Thats some of my thinking as I journey :)
REad the Bible and find the proof. There. And in point of fact, even the most holy believers "choose" to make their own decisions most of the time. Grow up. we are pathetic little creatsures and God l;ove us anyway.
Love this!
There's only one doctrine harder to come aboard with other than Christian Universalism, and that's Unitarianism.
It's one thing to present the "Godman" as a successful Saviour who saves his Father's creation rather than annihilate it, or worse, subject it to endless misery and suffering, but it's quite another thing to present the man, Jesus of Nazareth, as the actual means.
If you can get a Christian to reconsider hell, though, you might be able to get the Christian to reconsider the Trinity.
Why does Jesus need to not be God?
@ChadGrindstaff The righteousness of God apart from law is the faith of Christ. Jesus Christ's faith in God to raise him to life in order to save humanity is paramount. Faith is the assurance of that which is not seen. The operation of God through faith goes right out the windows when making Jesus the one who also anointed him and called him from his mother's womb.
So many are reconsidering hell, so maybe... :)
@JasonClarkIS-youtube The modern version of hell speaks to the very most primative state of natural man. Having the disposition to only receive Christ in accord with the "God-man" narrative seems to be, in my opinion, likewise elementary. The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those being saved, it is the power of God.
@@ba.anderson the trinity is the very mystery of God revealed in Jesus. It’s the foundation of Gods entire being and is the antithesis of simple. It’s essentially the only heresy to deny Jesus is “my lord and my God.” You don’t lose any of what you said by the incarnation. It’s the literal enfleshment of Love that saved us, living vicariously for us. Everything hinges on the trinity. He satiates the man’s desire to make God one who is love and therefore loved Himself alone before creation. God didn’t need creation to fulfill who He is.
Amen
:)