Is This Just a Gimmick? Tubes in Pedals - Mesa Boogie Bottle Rocket
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2024
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A gimmick? In the world of guitars? Perish the thought.
Exactly! I was wondering what to write to capture the irony. Thanks for saving me the time. 👍
😂
😂😂😂😂
I think I'm getting ear fatigue listening to so many of these videos. At times I listen to them in the background and I don't know what John's using, just that it sounds like John, which is a good thing. If it makes anyone play more and find inspiration to continue on the guitar journey, go for it.
That's what i told him in comment...
ok im proud owner of BK Butler tube driver..it offers something for modern gear.. warms stuff up
Kingsley. That is all.
0:45 - reminiscent of Rubina/Satch there. Lovely stuff.
Good question. I heard a Marshall guy say that back when people were complaining about JCM900s having a solid state gain stage (or something). He said, “why are people so upset? They all use solid state pedals in front of the amp for the same reason anyway.”
I used a Tube Driver for all the 90's I just liked the sound of it. Whether the tube added anything over a transistor ? I don't know, I do know that MOSFET transistors have similar sonic characteristics to a tube. I had a MOSFET stereo amp and it sounded very much like a hi end tube amplifier. I used to be into 'audiophile' gear until it got really stupid trying to charge huge sums for speaker cables and such. The marketing in audio started resembling wine 'connoisseurs' in that the supposed improved benefits could only be heard by those with golden ears or dogs!
The two note things are pretty good- the ReVolt especially… I used the Victory ones too through a Cab m (two notes) for home recording - not bad at all …
I have the Two Notes Le Clean and it is great. I use it with the Helix and it gives a really nice feel that adds something different to the Helix. I find it hard to play without it now and have just bought an Effectrode Blackbird to see if that is even better.
I used various tube preamps both for practice and recording. It feels that they have more dynamic range compared to ordinary OD/DS pedals and multieffects units. I can definitely recommend trying AMT SS-11A, AMT SS-10, Twonotes Leclean, AMT BRICKS M-Lead.
I used a Tube works Blue tube pedal using 12Au7 tube with gain fairly low as an always on pedal played as first pedal in the chain mostly thru solid state amps. Added noticable openness and a bit of sparkle.
I have a V Twin. Amazing Marshall like tones as well as some lovely glassy blues tones. Those 12ax7s will last 20+ years. I have an old Marshall 12ax7 in the Valvestate that still works great and that amp is from 1993.
Oh and the EHX ones like the Bulldog (I think it was called) are great.
I found a 7025 works wonders in my vs100
These overdriven tones sure sound great. 👍
I've got a couple of Blackstar HT Dual valve drive pedals, including their Gus G model. I think where they excel is going into a solid state amp, warming the tone up and giving some nice valve harmonics. With a tube amp I don't think they are necessary, as long as you have valves somewhere in the chain.
Those gadgets have been around for some time. Seymour Duncan made a series years ago that I quite liked, but not any better than the full analog pedals. Analog amps, digital modeling, pedals without tubes are my preference. As someone whose played for many decades, I have zero nostalgia for tubes and things that rely on them; when the stuff works it sounds good, but not enough to justify the hassle of living with it ;)
Such rich harmonics!
Tone was really great!
YES!..
Kingsley pedals. A whole other thing compared to the many other tube pedals I've had over the years.
YES! I forgot to mention these - would you recommend?
@@johnnathancordy Very much so. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend The Page for pretty much any guitar and amp platform because it's fairly neutral and simply sounds and feels so natural doing everything from subtle enhancement > low gain overdrive to solo boosting.
Other pedals within Simon's range have more specific flavours towards, Dumble, Blackface, Tweed etc. Tube pedals ..Matchless, Tube Drivers, Mesa, Ibanez never stuck for me. The Kingsley has been another story.
And the Mason and the Artisan
@@LewWelchThePoet I haven't tried either of the those. I've had a Harlot, and ealier version of the Jouster, and I have a Troubadour on order.
@@Grant_Ferstat I had a Harlot V3 but it didn’t move me the way the Page, Mason and Artisan have.
I have a Meas Boogie V twin…I would not trade it for the world…. I especially like the blues setting
I remember when we used to run valve pre amps in the FX loops of Line 6 Flextone amps to get the ‘ valve tone and feel’. I had one of the Art preamps ( can’t remember the model).
Was it t(e valves that made the difference . Who knows….
The point of running tube amps at or close to breakup is the extra harmonic richness and also a bit of compression. But if you drive a tube amp too hard, the compression begins to make the sound too soft and saggy. Overdrive pedals, depending on how you use them, juice up the harmonic content and add breakup without making the sound overly compressed. At least that's my personal approach. I prefer tube distortion, but an overdrive pedal can help with the definition of the sound.
I own a Mini Matrix (was called a Mini before the lawyers walked in) that uses 2 x 12AX7 tubes.
Bought at a charity shop for $20.00.
Interesting bit of kit.
That’s worth a penny or 2.
So…how does it sound compared to the production TD that followed it? If I were to guess, I would guess it is more noisy and hissy compared to TD
The Fender MTG Tube Tremolo pedal is pretty convincing...sounds just like the trem in their amps...if I could only afford it
I have a Hughes & Kettner Tube Factor. I think it does something a little different than a typical drive pedal, but it's very large and maybe isn't different enough to justify the real estate and need for its own power supply. TBH tho, I haven't really used it a lot and maybe should give it another chance.
SushiBox FX does tons of tube pedals/preamps etc I think they sound pretty damn incredible. Like his rat pedal with a tube is one of the best distortion sounds, but to be fair it's not the tube itself as much as the circuit (typical rat but more EQ options), plus a little bit of tube feel to it. His preamp Black Eye is mind blowing. Again, the tubes are cool and surely a little gimmicky since the work is done by the whole circuit and tonestack choices but it does seem they give that little bit of extra warmth
I have an old blackstar boost pedal with a tube, remember I switched the tube and it sounded slightly less boomy. Works wonders in the effectloop of an transistor amp, cause of a 3band eq and adds a little compression/ sag. As a boost it is useless cause it is slow on… had the Ht dual tried changing tuben but still sounded like shit. It did save a gig once where a jcm800 died, and we used it directly :)
One of the first pedals I ever bought was a Mesa V-twin. Because I couldn't afford a Dual Rectifier. It is a really nice preamp. But I had no idea what I was doing and couldn't use it properly. At some point I sold all my gear and went all digital. And since then understand a lot more about guitar. Some times I wish I still had it, but I don't think it was anything magical.
There was a tube version of the Zen drive, I bought one and sold it , silly me. But it sounded exactly like normal pedal, maybe a little more headroom. Still have my original Zen drive mind you.
The only valve pedal I’ve ever stuck with, that I’ve felt was worth it (to me), and is still on my ‘board after multiple years is the Effectrode PC-2A compressor. You get a beautiful “bloom” out of it. I think a compressor makes sense as different types of compressors “feel” different, as opposed to there being drastic differences in sound. It also sounds mega juicy when you whack the gain up on it. I use it with an old Fender Twin with buckets of clean headroom, so ymmv, it probably makes less difference when using a meatier amp.
Love me a good tube pedal. The power requirements are often a bit scary but they do sound wonderful. You can get fairly cheap ones these days. The little bear G3 is a good example 50€ landed in Europe. Excellent feel, easy to swap different tubes in and out.
👍🏿🤘 I only have experience of the Kingsley pedals (9vDC @ 500ma) and think they are amazing for both feel and sound. The closest other pedals I have tried with that same sound and feel are usually germanium overdrives.
I use the crazy tube circuit tube OD. It sounds great and adds tube feel to my Bluguitar amp1 that has a solid state pre amp. I think it’s mostly a feel thing and it sounds great. To hear it #majikband here on UA-cam or our new album MAJIK BAND Primordium. Well done video.
Tubesteader has some cool looking stuff. I'd almost get one just for the vibe, but would love to hear if they're worth it over non-tube options.
Quickly….tubes in a pedal not a gimmick…it can produce a good sound….i always ask the question you asked- why do people require tubes in the amp, but not the pedal?
It would be interesting to compare a tube-based overdrive to a near-identical circuit using JFETs as a fetzer valve.
Check out Jim Lill's video on where does an amps sound come from.
You can draw your own conclusions, but he pretty definitively proves what affects the sound.
I have a BK Tubedriver, and also a Buffalo FX TD-1. The Buffalo is supposed to replicate the original TD, but without using a tube. The guy who makes the Buffalo FX pedals is extremely good at what he does.
My take: the Buffalo TD-1 comes awfully close. But there is a difference. The real TD has more thickness and more tube “bounce”, almost like it’s alive. So, tone wise, I dont think a listener would be able to tell the difference. But as a player, you can feel it.
I will keep both pedals, but the original is the one I use, with the Buffalo being an alternative and maybe to go on a smaller board, as it’s easier to power.
Gimmick or not, I personally would be worried about damaging the valve in a pedal. Gear gets knocked about, especially pedals.
hey John Nathan, don't know much about them, but could it be plugged straight into the power amp, so it's it's own preamp? not colored be the fender preamp?
If IR loaders existed when I had a V-Twin I would still have it.
Mind you the clean up on the guitar volume control wasn’t great (nor is it on my Mkiii drive lead channel).
Not at high voltages. At starved plate voltages tubes sound worse than transistors for clipping a signal.
Yes they do. If the tube doesn't have a huge power supply it is probably some marketing ploy.
That’s a bunch of bs. I have a real Tubedriver, and I also have a Buffalo FX TD-1, which is the same circuit but uses a JFET instead of a tube. The Buffalo sounds great, but that low voltage tube in the BK makes a difference. I have a tube Zendrive 2, also, and it too sounds and feels different than a regular non-tube Zendrive.
I have 4 Kingsley pedals, which run the tubes at proper (250 volt) voltage. They sound great, no doubt, but to say that a starved plate tube sounds worse than a transistor is flat out wrong.
I have an older Blackstar overdrive that uses a tube, it sounds great, but i have other drive pedals that sound great and the power needs of the Blackstar keep it off my board and out of use 99% off the time
@John. Is there a solid state pedal that has a similar circuit to that Bottle Rocket?? In other words how can you tell anything if you have nothing similar to compare it to. It must be based on something.
John that pedal sounds so fat and chunky through that LP. Incredible sustain!
Low voltage = gimmick High voltage = not gimmick
Well, technically, it isn't and is a gimmick. It's not a gimmick, in the sense that different components have different types of nonlinear behavior, so a tube in a pedal is going to distort a bit differently (or a lot differently) from an overdriven bipolar or FET transistor, or diodes of various types in an op amp feedback loop. So, not a gimmick in the sense of adding something to the palette of tones. It pretty much is a gimmick, though, in terms of promising tone like a tube amp's preamp stage. A tube amp has a largish power transformer (different from the output transformer driving the speakers) that takes the AC power input and derives a variety of voltages from it, e.g., 6 and/or 12 V for the tube filaments, and typically one or more high voltages to put on the plates of the tubes. The high voltages can be anywhere from, say, 75 V to a couple hundred volts or more. The way a tube behaves, including its nonlinearity, depends on the plate voltage. Tubes in pedals are typically operating with a plate voltage way, way below what they'd have in a tube amp. So even if all the circuitry around the tube is the same as what it is in some tube amp preamp stage, it will not sound like a tube amp's preamp stage. Many tube-in-a-pedal units have pretty low voltages on the plate; maybe just 12 V. Some of them use voltage multipliers to get something higher, but you can only reliably multiply a 9 V or 12 V pedal supply input so many times, so the voltages are likely still below what you'd find in an amp. A tube pedal that plugs directly into AC might be able to provide the right plate voltage, but still maybe not, if the required transformer can't fit in the pedal form factor. So as a rule these pedals just cannot perform like a tube preamp stage in an amp. -Tom
The Mesa is an AC transformer if that makes any difference?
@@johnnathancordy Yes, that suggests they have one or more stages of voltage doubling. You can do it with DC power, but you have to add circuitry (more complex than the rectifier needed to get DC from AC), so it's cheaper to do it with AC power. It's unlikely they are matching the voltage in their tube amps, but the tube will work closer to the way it would work in an amp.
Note that your channel is practically unavailable, due to a blockade by ads.
Nevertheless, to add to the discussion, I have the Behringer VT999 and it is awesome.
The Zoom G5 original pedal had a tube amp boost with a real tube inside. It was a gimmick as it was dropped in the next (crappier) N version.
Unless you use analyzing software you are not going to know if a tube is real in mix.
666 - mark of the beast / Anti-pedal
Yeah, I think they probably all have that 666 serial number. Everything sold today is some kind of gimmick isn't it? I'm building a new pedal myself. With it, you'll be able to replicate the cone-cry of the world's most famous speakers. Of course, you'll be able to capture you own speakers crying as well. Just imagine capturing the sound produced by that dash speaker of your grandpa's '53 Buick into your rig!! And, as an added bonus, it will also make your wallet weep!!! "For Crying Out Loud" watch for it soon at online mass merchants soon.
So my immediate, & uneducated, answer for "why amps but not pedals" pedals are additive, amps (no matter how that's defined, modelling/plugins etc are still amps) are required. And even in amp circuits when something is additive it doesn't have to be tubes (see numerous amps with a FET boost). If it's meant to add a lil bit, why be complex & cumbersome when for 98% of players (myself included) you can't hear/feel a noteworthy difference between tube & various diodes in a JAFOD?
Preamp pedals that are basically half an amp circuit made into pedal I get why. Though why those exist when the amp is right there, whole other can of worms. But as an overdrive...price, size, power, complexity....just not worth it eh?!
There ya go. @1:15
Am I the only guitarist that is a bit dubious about the use of only 12AX7's (ECC83's) as the gain stages in a pedal. It's an OK sound but, especially if you want a cleaner sounding channel on your pedal, why not 12AT7's or what I like to use in Marshall phase inverter posi, 12AU7? The more Fender sounding 12AT7 makes more sense as a clean channel preamp valve, and 12AX7's are not the only things you could use for the drve channel,..... maybe 7025 type at least or maybe a larger tube wired as dual triode. I'd like to see more experimentation in this area, but I understand some tubes might be hard to get for the purpose. There is slightly, not so much compression, but more of a tube rectifier type sag, which is more like a delay in the throw of the wave of sound, which swells and blooms ever so slightly more than a solid stae or digital copy at the end of the stroke on the string as well as compressing down a little at the start. The actual eq and texture of the sound is also a little smoother and silkier on the surface, because the smp's inefficiency is beneficial to, and flatters the sound by failing to reproduce the harsh edges, which takes more than a high cut to sound good in the room. Don't forget that all the best sounds of analogue solid-state tube screamers or Klons or Fuzz-Faces, were remembered from being plugged into valve amps, and were all initially trying to reproduce output valve harmonic distortions, so unless plugged into a real valve power section they won't make that creamy tone without some slight loss of headroom. That's why the only tube preamp that is a real reproduction of preamp and power amp drive is the Groovetubes STPG, because it is an amp top similar to a black-face deluxe, but with a built in reactive load and inductive attenuator enabling you to use it just as a preamp into a power amp or straight into the desk. Or you could just dial up( unlike an actual deluxe) several different tonal profiles and any amount of drive to your signal in its internal preamp. Or you could just use it it out of the attenuated output, which is the presmp part and the poweramp part together. In itherwords you could stick it on the floor and if you didn't stub your toe on it you could use it instead of a drive pedal straight into your usual clean pedal platform amp. The irony of using real preamp tubes and real power amp tubes as the ultimate copy of a tube screamer,( which is trying to do the same thing into your amp) is something you don't want to hurt your head trying to think about, so no wonder not much more came from all that product research. Maybe instead of trying to copy things incessantly guitarists could make something that uses whatever combination of elements achieves a sound they can use. Beyond clean and driven, modulation reverb and delay is not that needed on most boards, and unless you want hammond sound and don't have a keyboard player you don't need those either. More finessing of the simple parts of the whole chain to create the most suitable walk through is all you should waste time on. Think of the time you could free up for writing new music ( the main thing that is missing from modern popular music, no matter how beautifully it's played or recorded, there's a dearth of songs being the main point of music. Even instrumental music hasn't seen any decent accessable content apart from maybe Steve Morse or Steffen Shakinger. We spend so much time obsessing over gear, which is only enjoyment and self indulgence, and the real goal of music is to make something for someone else to enjoy.
Tldr
Ayo what's going on in that intro is that a song
imma need those chords tho
I’ve used Kingsley, Vahlbruch, Sherlock etc which are all at high plate voltages. These are all excellent options and do sound better IMPO vs SS drives. The new Thorpy is 15v. That is unfortunately the definition of a gimmick vs a 200-250v tube pedal. These starved tube pedals are what ruined the tube pedal concept as they sound pretty terrible…and obviously the PSU requirements which are considerable vs a basic 9v SS pedal.
Preamp valves/tubes last for years if not decades. Valves definitely sound different to solid state equivalents, and in my experience solid state never captures the tube sound. I've just been trying to make a Hermida Audio Dover Drive sound like a BK Butler Tube Driver, it really can't be done. I also have a bunch of other valve overdrives which sound tonally more complex than their solid state counterparts. This doesn't mean they are always better, they aren't necessarily, a lot depends on the circuit the tubes are in, but they do offer something transistors, opamps and diodes can't replicate
The Dover drive isn't really trying to recreate the tube driver, despite the name and graphics. It's really cloning Eric's dirty rhythm/alternative lead sound of fuzz face into a dumble. Circuit wise it's a fuzz face going into a zen drive
@@tonystartup3817 yes, that's a fair point. However I stand by my statement that solid state always fails to replicate the nuances of vlaves
@@jupitermoongauge4055I have a slew of tube overdrives pedals, and can say confidently that you are correct. BUT…you should try a Buffalo FX TD-1. It’s a Tubedriver circuit without a tube. It sounds amazingly close. Still not 100%, but much much closer than a Dover Drive, which, like Tony said, is more about a Fuzzface into amp sound. Dover sounds great, too. I have a tube Zendrive, and it also sounds awesome. I’ve had it for 10 years, and will keep it until that final day.