Epidode 23 Ultrasonic Clean and Chain Preparation
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2022
- This is the ultimate guide to Ultrasonic Cleaning and Pre - Preparation options of your bicycle chain. If your are not going to wax your chain, Adam explains the default option of the ultrasonic clean to get rid of factory grease which you must do.
Zero Friction Cycling is now the worlds most referenced independent test facility for lubricant and chain performance. Our Facility has conducted over 300,000km of controlled testing and now with a new expanded test facility, this is expected to grow by around 200,000km per year. - Спорт
Thanks for sharing details of your job. I highly appreciated your input on what makes sense for „casual waxers” and what is an overkill 👍
Thanks making this, Adam. I'm continually impressed with your care for the environment and professionalism. I'll definitely get my next SRAM chain from you. I really wish they didn't use such a brutal coating on their chains.
Thanks CatManDo - and yes in my basically hyperfocussed area in cycling it was pretty natural to want to work out a way of recycling back solvents used for pre prep, and it honestly turned out to be pretty simple and saves lot. And yes you and me both. I really don't know why they use what they use - i cant imagine what packing / storing issues they would have using something much more slippery and easy to remove like shimano / ybn / campy / kmc. And also the penalty for riding their factory grease is higher as it is SO SLOW and just such a contamination magnet. There are a lot of cyclists who dont know better and will put a new chain on for key event like a gran fondo, and the big myth persists re one shouldnt remove factory grease (thanks GMBN) - and if they are a sram rider - ouch.
That's why I get and will always get my chain prepared and waxed by you! Thanks for the video
Loving mine and what was even more amazing was the speed it came from Australia to NY!!
Thanks so much for this video. I’m now preparing a couple of chains per week and this is very helpful for ramping things up.
Really good video, thanks for sharing.
Great info! Really appreciate it.
Great vid, thanks again👍
Great and super informative video- thanks!
I’m new to the world of low friction cycling and your video has really kept me informed. My bike is being serviced as we speak and you guessed it, I discovered the dry wax chain lube I had been using increased the wear and tear of my chain and gear train. Now the service bill is steep but in future it should be less as I will be applying your chain lubrication advice to increase the longevity of my gear.
You have the passion like I do very nice set up.
awesome stuff paul!
Great video’s thank you for all your time and effort, learning so much. To wax my chain’s I use a two Crockpot’s, running a comparison, my bike Silca SS, my wife’s bike Morton Sppedwax. Once the wax is upto temperature around 90’c, I’ve preheated the chain to a similar temperature, immerse the chain into the wax, remove the pot from the cooker and place a thick clear lid on top, then attach a vacuum pump and take it down to -1.5 bar, placing the pot on a vibrating table for 15 mins and watch all the bubbles escape. Finally removing the chain at around 65’c. I always wax the complete length of new chains, when I size them for the bikes the extra links I carefully ‘open up’ to inspect how much wax has made its way inside the rollers and pins and it seems pretty good. The Silca SS I’m getting around 800km between rewax zéro wear on Sram 10 and 11 Speed. Morton SW 600km Shimano 10 Speed. I’m rotating 8 chains at present!!!
ha thats amazing! i have had a number of people write in over time re vacuum waxing, something i cant see going mainstream, however if there is tangible accurate tracking for treatment lifespan benefit (and overall long term wear lifespan) - it may be of interest. My impression has always been that wax is liquid, chain is not very water proof and based on lifespans we get that vacuum waxing would likely be too small a benefit to tangibly measure and for too much faff that would have it never remotely be of mainstream use. But maybe i need to tinker myself - if you get a chance email me the vacuum unit and table that you use to info@zerofrictioncycling.com.au
An interesting process for sure. Great to see someone who cares about the environment but doesn’t gauge others for the work. I’m very impressed.
Product availability is definitely an issue, but it really shouldn’t be
thanks william - and yeah always working hard on stock - it has been a mega pita. It is hard to spend more than some thousands at a time on any particular product line or chain model, as even for a small boutique business, we still have a lot of chain lines to stock etc - and so one time can re order fine, go to re order early so dont run out, only to find eta for importer is going to be another 6 months or more - some lines it can be well over a year - it is hard to plan / stock ahead that long and keep stocks flowing in a manner that matches cash flow.
but getting there. Mostly. Thanks in advance for patience on previous or future orders just in case :).
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I wasn’t knocking you or your process. I’m just frustrated with the companies all having shortages when I don’t think there really should.
I am currently running 5 chains through my system, bought them based off your recommendation. I just hit wax all at once as needed. Have helped friends switch to wax based system. Riding in Washington, can get very wet, so hoping the wax helps things last. I’m not going back because for sure it’s quieter and smoother. Love watching your videos. Has helped me in my journey.
It all started when I couldn’t get a chain due to pandemic and supply issues. Had to replace cassette when I finally got a new chain. Found you through UA-cam link from Silca video. Totally fascinated by your work!
Thanks
Hi ZFC, Is it recommended to use UFO drip on top of Silca Hot melt wax? Will it affect the wax in the pot? And what is the distance would you recommend when UFO drip/Silca SS lube is used on top of wax before having to rewax? As according to your guide it's recommended to rewax every 300km I am just wondering if I am able to use the drip lube before going into the pot. Thanks!
Huge thanks for your work Adam. Just converting to waxing and learning loads from you. I'd welcome your advice with cleaning prep. I'm using a 3l 100W UC and planned to do the cleaning baths using a beaker suspended in deionised water (2.3l to UC fill level). I realise this isn't ideal, but really want to avoid getting through huge amounts of spirits at home. Given my setup, do you think this is the best method and choice of cleaners? Finally, what UC temperature should I set for cleaning a new Shimano chain? Thanks again!
Thanks EB - umm sorry i cant see what the actual cleaning solution is - but check out the recent vid on ultrasonic cleaning - white spirits etc actually have pretty low cavitation - but they will do - just have to give them some long run times after de gassing - ok to clean new chains - not the most scrubbing though if doing a contaminated chain. If doing new chains, the UFO clean, or silca stripper, or simply specific ultrasonic cleaning solution is best for sure, and will cavitate well in a glass beaker - just make sure its rated for US or they can shatter with use.
I use an more inexpensive 60w 2L ultrasonic. It seams to do a great job.
Thanks a lot for this Adam, I'm learning a lot from your videos and guides on the site.
I was wondering if I could use Acetone instead of denatured alcohol since that is more easily available to me.
I'm running a combination of immersive and drip waxing, and unless for a deep clean of the chain, I would just run acetone on a microfiber cloth, wipe the chain and apply the drip wax.
Thanks Reece - and yes for sure Acetone is probably the best metal prep finish it is just in most places much more expensive. It flash evaps extremely well so if not too expensive the acetone is great.
I recommend to you to look up saponification instead of harmful solvents. Break oil and dissolve fatty acids in water which can go down drain safely.
i think you should look up the information from silca strip chip which might be in the area you are hoping. Just putting FG chain in paraffin base wax is not going to do your "saponification". If it did, we would have removed the cleaning prep barrier for people to get waxing a decade ago.
Re harmful solvents - You should also look up mineral turpentine / white spirits which has VERY LOW environment toxicity, and you can see on this video that i recycle back about 90% of it, the remainder with factory grease sludge is then disposed of via hazardous liquid waste. The amount we are talking for disposal - it would take me about 3 years to equal one single small cars normal oil change every 10,000km. Methylated spirits is basically pure alcohol and is rated as EXTREMELY LOW environmental toxicity, and again, mostly recycled back.
Most people will be using and handling a number of more toxic things in their household cleaning. For zfc i am using very low to extremely low toxicity solvents, of which most of that is recycled, and what isn't is disposed of properly.
Hopefully that helps with any concerns....
Save money by buying your own ultrasonic cleaner unit . Electronics hobbyist stores like Jaycar have them . No need to send them to Zero in Crafters if you need to do a few of them or do them regularly for a business or bicycle club , for example . I bought one before getting reading glasses .
Thanks for sharing this Adam. I did a similar procedure when starting waxing my chains 2 years ago. I left the used solvents in separate containers since then and can see now that the upper part looks clear with some black dregs at the bottom. Is it possible that the upper part is relatively clean or totally clean for reuse? (Assuming I can take it out without mixing the the whole thing again). Just wondering if by leaving the solvents resting enough time would be a substitute for the distilling process. Thanks again. Victor
Hey victor yes you can certainly do pretty well with that. Over time the grease will tend to settle to the bottom, and solvent to the top. For those using to prep own chains their should be a lot of time between needing to prep a chain or two, by which time one can carefully pour back out (siphon is better if you grab a siphon from hardware shop and pouring will mix some grease back in easily) to do first couple baths at least and then just use fresh for final bath.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 That makes sense. Thanks again Adam. Appreciated.
Just wondering but what do you advise for cassettes? Without chain oil, how do you stop them from rusting?
Hello again Adam and thank you for another awesome video!!! I was wondering how many chains do you put through your wax pot before you change out the wax for new wax?Also I'm sure that you've heard of the new wax from silca called hot wax x do you have any plans on testing this new wax?Its quite pricey at 220.00 dollars for 300 gms so i'm going to hold off from trying it until I hear from you that its worth it...Thank you in advance and merry christmas to you and your family Cheers!!!
Hey Glenn! For pre prep i am bound by some stipulations re how many chains per 1.5kg of wax to ensure perfect pre prep (basically 16 per 500g or 48 per 1.5kg). However as the chains have hours of ultrasonic cleaning before wax, the wax is still basically perfect, and then it moves over to be my personal wax, but i give away most of excess as it is way more than i can use to some juniors in mtb club / + wax slab prizes to juniors at some rounds. Other than that for personal waxing, you should change to a fresh bag every approx 8000 to 10,000km (road riding) - so a 500g bag lasts a long time.
Yes i did an article on hot wax X but i had to delete that as i accidentally included some confidential information. And i am seeking further information as well and yes will be testing when i can, it hasnt landed with silca's importer in AUs yet.
I am likely to stock pre my testing for a couple of reasons - a) we have a lot of trust with Josh and silca - he is always open re questions and data (ie - look how the likes of muc-off have basically run from any specific questions), and they have already delivered many top tested lubricants. b) My test is a fairly blunt tool - it absolutely checks if a lubricant is likely to be a top performer or medium or worrying, but it is not really able to separate small differences. Ie if hot melt x is half a watt faster - my test will not be able to ascertain that. Already the performance of mspeedwax new formula, existing hot melt, and the race blend prototype currently testing for Rex - they are so high performing that really i need a new test to try to discern a difference - they all go thousands of km's into existing test protocol with almost zero wear.
So something like this we have to take on face value, i have no doubts it will perform extremely well in zfc test, but my test wont be able to discern it from mspeedwax, normal hot melt and rex upcoming race wax. So one will just have to decide if they believe from Silca that it is 0.5w faster than hot melt, and if they believe that ok (i have no reasons to doubt based on long history now testing for and with josh poertner) whether that is worth paying that extra premium for (it would be for well heeled racers who are already well on top of having dedicated race chain, dedicated race wax pot etc - not something one should be contaminating with regular re waxing of training chain etc). it is a big price to pay for a marginal gain - but i dont think this is meant to be a volume product - it is meant to be a cool new pushing the next level of waxing product for those who have the budget and enjoy playing with such marginal gains. At the end of the day, having the option on the market is better than not having the option on the market - unlike some mfg we know at least people wont be handing over hard earned money for complete bs, it will be a product people can have a lot of faith will deliver as claimed
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you so much for the detailed reply you answered all my questions once again and I think that you donating all your wax to the junior mtb club is so awesome!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the video. What size ultrasonic cleaner would you reccomend for home use?/ Just to be used for cleaning chains and road cassettes? I've seen 6L being reccomended by Silca, that seems like quite a large volume if you're only cleaning one chain at a time, so a waste of solvents. Do you think a 3L, such as one of the 3L DK Sonics would be sufficient for chains and cassettes?
I recommend 2 litre size (which for most means - strangely - about 1 litre internal volume) - these are a great size for chains and should fit road cassettes up to 30t. Vevor is a good budget brand. And yes too big things get a little more faffy - often needing to use container inside tank filled with water, but depending on container - most will be plastic which really dents ultrasonic wave ability to penetrate, as well as viscosity change - the ultrasonic power will often be greatly reduced. So a size that is practical to fill with actual cleaning solution will deliver best results. 3 litre you will find will be ok as well, likely will take around 1.8 litres of fluid - the main thing is you want a size where you do not need to use a container in water for best results.
Thanks a lot for the prep guide! One question about ultrasonic cleaner. If you only had one would you place the chain in a container with mineral turps and later with mineral spirits? So not pouring directly in the ultrasonic? So just water directly. And can you use UFO clean with same results in the ultrasonic? Thanks 🙏
Hi Harale! Ultrasonic is tricky for home - typically the ultrasonic power that most have is pretty low (claims for cheap US power are miles out - ie i have tested some cheap units from customers with claimed power of 100w yet power meter showing 15w draw..). There is an issue with transition from one medium to another so putting in a container is not optimal - it is ok if you have sufficient power and also pulse and sweep wave as different mediums prefer different frequencies. I have been doing more investigation here lately and even mine i am going to be going back to direct in ultrasonic.
A little bit similar with UFO clean - overall yes - but again it is more viscous so more power vs low power will help. trouble is decent power units cost $$, and so the payback for home maintenance really isnt there much unless going for every possible 0.1w for own race chain prep. If you have an ok unit, then yes doing in UFO clean will be groovy, just as per guide you will have wanted the heavy lifting done first in container method, ultrasonic to finish to get into fissures that container wont.
Great info as always. Quick question. Followed all the usual steps and are using silca hot wax and topping it off with Silca secret wax. I noticed that the Silca drip lube just does not last long, maye 40-60 miles until I get this dry chain ringing/pinging noise. Is that normal? Today I got tired of it and relubed with Smoove and the chain was still quiet after a 100mile ride.
Hi - hmmm a ringing / pinging noise i havent had reported before. Typically when a wax chain is running too dry it will just start to sound and feel really dry, in some cases one can get a bit of metal noise of rollers and cassette teeth under high load if getting really dry. SS drip is not super long lasting per treatment - that is really the only con for that lube. it is super clean, super low friction, super low wear, and perfect to use in conjunction with immersive waxing - but it is hard to get too much on per application as once you have added about 3ml to chain, the rest will mostly just slide off onto the floor. So you only get a fairly thin re coat each application. If you are higher power / dusty conditions etc especially, then treatment lifespan can be fairly short - so it is best to remember all the awesome advantages and just be prepared to quickly re lube frequently.
Lubes like squirt / smoove - they are definitely not a bad product - and they are definitely popular with many in that they are very smooth for a long time per treatment. But they are a completely different wax base. SS base is extremely refined paraffin - squirt i believe is slack wax - i think smoove is same / similar - this wax has a much higher oil content - great for longevity and dampening feel - but has some different cons vs ss drip over time.
Penetration issue is fun if you cleaned chain. They are a tough clean when you do want / need to clean chain. They will gunk up much more easily over X applications. If you only ride in dry - then maintenance intervals mean the above probs not too bad. If you get hit with a wet ride, really you need to reset or contamination brought in by water is not going anywhere and your next rides in the sun will be high wear and friction like you are still riding in wet - and it is just a much bigger job to clean and get past penetration issues vs a super refined paraffin base lube like ss drip where some boiling water flushing and dry and re apply.
And of course the wear rate difference is pretty clearly in SS drip favour - so depending on groupset component cost - over time there are some clear running cost savings for just needing to re apply more often. If you have a 60 mile ride coming up etc - just put a good coating on night before, and then when back, and it should be all groovy times.
but - again - that is not for everyone, if a longer lasting more damped feel is what they really like, then smoove is by no means a poor option, it''s a good lube choice overall for many. One should go with a top option that suits THEM vs being dictated by absolute lowest wear etc if that option is going to be a faff.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the reply. I probably didn't describe the noise correctly but as you said its the sound of a dry chain. If I stay with Smoove or Squirt can I still re wax with hot wax once in a while?
@@teamredog2961 Ah that is not really recommended. The much higher oil content of those wax lubricants can mean waxing directly over may contaminate wax in the pot a bit, as well as not great adherence / bond of the immersive wax. Using squirt / smoove for an application or two if on cycling holiday - running until that treatment feels dry, and then re waxing - it hasnt seemed to cause any issues for waxers who do that. But as general practice / doing over more applications over a longer time - the risk is greater that your re wax ing wont be as amazing vs if using with a confirmed compatible drip lubricant that uses an extremely similar wax base.
Hey ZFC, got another question now when I read your latest guide on chain cleaning, with the UFO Clean. Worked wonders and here in Sweden it ends up being much cheaper than spirits and all that, and not having to deal with 3-4 baths etc is worth it alone.
But one question in regards to the UFO Clean. I know that the procedure is fairly quick, and it doesn't take long to clean the chain in UFO. I of course forgot the chain in the UFO Cleaner over night, is this an issue? Thinking in regards to embrittlement of the metal etc, or is it totally fine to just leave it in overnight?
Thanks!
Hi! ah i havent actually asked that as im 99.99% sure that if there was that risk they would have advised and i just cannot see them releasing a cleaner that would risk embrittlement - im on hols atm so i wont be bugging cs for a little bit - if unsure you could try emailing CS directly to ask, but yeah i personally would not be worried, i would be pretty stunned if it caused embrittlement
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I sent them an email just to be sure, but since they seem to clean their own chains with it, it feels weird that it would be something that possibly endangered the safety of the chains... also, feels a bit odd if something that was organic and safe could destroy a chain in 12 hours...
Enjoy your holiday! I'll keep you updated on what they write back if you want to add some information to your guides or whatnot :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Just got a reply!
“The UFO Clean does not harm the metal in the chain, the solvent in the UFO Clean does only affect oil, greases and wax products
So no problem letting your chain soak in the UFO Clean”
Thanks for the video, do you not do container cleans before UC?
Thanks
Not for pre prep no, the production line goes well just moving straight to ultrasonic - all up they get a lot of time in tank and the overall process is efficient for me as well + ensuring perfect prep every time - i pre prep circa 3000 chains a year!! :)
hi, nice job recycling! would it be possible to get a distiller with stainless pipes instead of hoses? might save some maintenance?
The hoses fine, it is the gaskets that cant handle it. So far i have tried a lot of different gasket for the turps distiller, none last that long before degrade and fall apart and need re doing. I distill a lot these days due to prep volumes so doing about 2 distills a week, and re doing gasket approx every month. But the hose is original - would be in the thousands of litres through it by now!
It's probably a very old question but have ever tried to obtain unwaxed chains directly from the factory? I would suppose that eventually teaming up with other chain preparers the number of requested chains might be big enough for a manufacturer to consider it.
Hey tom - it is a great question - i think maybe one day the mfg may do their own pre prep with a top wax / wax of their own - it just typically is not a focus as they have their fingers in a lot of pies, they understand the existing process, and moving to doing this would actually be a pretty big change in a lot of how the line works - and so would they get a return on that investment - when they are going to sell the chain anyway and either the user will prep if they wish, or specialist companies will offer pre prep.
If it does happen i think it would be more for selling their own TT / race chains - i think for overall mass volumes they wont be moving from fact grease anytime soon.
One questions regarding quick links and chains. You inspired me to properly get going with rotating chains, so have 12 chains inbound now (Shimano HG601) that I plan to use for 3-4 bikes to rotate 3-4 chains for each bike.
My question though. Can I reuse the same YBN quick link for different chains? In that way I only need to keep track of how many times ONE quick link has been used for that bike. Instead of rotating 3-4 quick links with 3-4 chains, meaning that I need to keep track of how many times I have run a certain quick link with that chain, if that makes sense?
So idea is to use one quick link 5 times (per YBN guidelines), but to reuse that single quick link with all the chains I have rotating :)
Thanks a lot!
Yes indeed, if same speed chain - one link to rule them all is fine indeed.
The best way to track links really is by feel. Many do track the number of uses and look to replace by approx 5 ish, but it doesn’t take long to get to know the feel of the link. If you have a nice definite “Snick” of the pin locking into the locking channel, things are good. If the pin goes into locking channel very easily with barely a click, and you can then easily open link again by hand, so not need to use tool just moderate effort by hand - then it’s a good time to move to a new link. Most links this will be somewhere around 5 ish re uses, but getting to know the feel of the link over time - which is easy - is a great way to go vs trying to track uses. I.e I have 6 bikes on active duty and I have absolutely no idea where the links are at use wise. If i look over at my cx bike or road bike or one of my mtb's - no idea off hand if it has a new link on or one thats been re used a bit. especially considering each link will be in service for well over 1000km’s, one will definitely lose track of where links are at on what bike. But for any bike when I reinstall the link after a re wax, I know if its feeling groovy, or if ah that was super easy, let me grab a new link. Trying to track re uses would be nightmare, and there is really no need as it is very easy to tell if all good, or should move to a new link, the next time you use that link.
So go the path of feel - if initially you track uses (stick some masking tape on something where you have your bikes and put a mark each re use) so you know what that link feels like after say 5 uses - you will get to know the secure / not as secure feel in no time, it really is an easy and very worthwhile little skill to add to the arsenal 😊
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks so much for this! Really appreciate it :) can’t wait to have a few chains to rotate after trying immersion waxing for a few months now with a single chain!
11:08 Walter White moment haha. U hot super cool workshop. Pozdro
*got
Hi ZFC. Do you think that waxing the cassette, chainring(s) and maybe the pulleys would make a performance difference?
Hey retro - waxing them doesnt really work - you just have way too much wax. If you re wax your chain early a few times, you do impart some excess wax to teeth, and this is a little wear protective and so very very slightly lower friction - it is good practice to err on re wax earlier vs pushing treatment lifespans. Really the only (and again we are talking very marginal gain) is to mspeedwax race powder cassette and rings. This will give a temporary coating of super super slippery powder. You may have heard for record attempts re polished cog & ring - it is in that vein however short lived. I do every now and then for a state or national level cx/ mtb event - abrasive dust just will not stick to cassette / ring and get involved in the interaction as the roller is slotting into place, it is slotting in with some super slippery powder. Depending on conditions this powdering may really only be effective for about 30 mins - but thats 30 mins that abrasive dust has no chance to get in the action. The effect would be longer but lesser impact on road as much lower contamination, and this is not a high friction interaction so saving a tiny bit on a tiny bit - its marginal, and a bit faffy to do. It is really for avid tinkerers who are also avid racers who just enjoy playing with bike before race day. Like me.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks so much for your detailed reply!
I appreciate not only all the work you do but also the fact that you share so much info!
😀👍
During COVID 19 , I made a good profit ftom bicycle component ultrasonic cleaning as I was very good at it .
ok no i am starting to think something odd is going on. Good for you robert.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I learn't about ultrasonic cleaning from New Scientist magazine .
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Plenty of bicycle service facilities are ultrasonically cleaning some components in the United States having asked relatives there .
Ribble Valley cyclist here on UA-cam has a video about ultrasonic cleaning of components .
@@robertmcfadyen9156 there are countless channels that have a video on ultrasonic cleaning of components. why mention that one specifically?
What about using a heated ultrasonic cleaner, fill it with wax and use it for immersive chain waxing instead of a crock pot?
Would there be any benefits over normal immersive waxing, would the wax go deeper?
no not all - ultrasonic waxing is done for race chain prep - but there is are a few things one should know to ensure that is done well, and you need a fairly powerful unit - to do properly really is way more than what one would want to spend who isnt doing race chain preps professionally. Using a cheap / low power unit, odds are greater you will do a worse wax than just a good swish in a pot as there is not enough power to ensure friction modifiers are evenly distributed through the wax vs settling to the bottom. Penetration of the wax is not an issue as chain is not waterproof. Again it is done for race chains only with proper equipment for an extremely marginal gain vs good swish. It is not worth it for those at home unless extremely avid tinkerers who want to do it more because they want to use an ultrasonic for fun vs attaining a tangible benefit
Man i feel like its just a matter of time before you have a serious fire / explosion. You should really consider grounding / bonding everything. I"m an HSE professional if you ever want to chat. You've sure taught me a lot about zero friction!
Thanks BikeFixIt!!! Ah i didnt show the ventilation - i have a fantech explosion proof / vapour proof fan thingy directly behind the large air purifier you can see there, and an air quality monitor you can see on the left. TVOC and other / overall air quality rating is almost always in either top rating or just in 2nd to top rating - there is zero build up at all of any vapours. If i accidentally spill whilst handling full ultrasonic, the monitor picks this up immediately with TVOC jumping right up, but this is cleared almost immediately by the purifier and very large exhaust fan. There is nothing to explode. I prep circa 3000 chains per year through there last few years and vapours in monitor right next to them - it is like we are at the top of a lovely fresh air mountain :)
Can I ask a silly question, what does one do about the cluster and crank? Clean and waxed chain on dirty components. What should one clean them with? Thanks, love your work!
Hey alan! ah it really depends on what was on there before. You can clean previous drip lube drivetrain any ol way that works for you, you dont have to worry about wax bond like you do the inside of chain, you just want it clean so it wont contaminate you lovely new wax chain. But this can be 5 minute job with a cloth, or it can be an hour with solvents and stiff brushes and hard work - it all depends on what was the previous lubricant and the maintenance previously. In the workshop days a customer could bring in their lovingly maintained bike where every week they were degreasing chain and cleaning drivetrain - so cleaning it for a waxed chain was just so quick and easy. Others the drivetrain had never been maintained, and some drip lubricants gunk up and set like concrete over time, and i would be there for an hour thinking about grabbing a chisel and just a mess of crap on chain rings, rear mech, cassette etc - it all needed to come off, be soaked in solvent and then attacked hard etc.
So every one is different, but the good news is once its cleaned, thats pretty much your last clean if going to a top wax! :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the reply, appreciate it. First clean and wax for two chains coming this weekend, your videos and website have given me the confidence to give this a try!
Is there any advantage in soaking chains in solvent overnight at home?
I've had issues waxing SRAM RED d1 flattop chains due to the very tight tolerances, felt like using an ultrasonic cleaner to agitate wax helped it to seep in. Could be placebo, time will tell.
Wax shouldnt have penetration issues, it doesnt really matter for immersive waxing how tight the tolerances are, they are still far from water tight, and your melted wax and hot chain from being in hot wax - again - not water proof, not liquid wax proof. Ultrasonic can easily do a lesser job vs pot depending on ultrasonic power, container etc. Most put in a container surrounded by water, in low ish power US. THis has extremely low US power in the wax, it will all be in the water as there is a viscosity change - especially if container is plastic. THis can lead to the modifiers settling to bottom by end of run, so poor modifier distribution in the wax.
It can be done well, but it a bit of work, and for an EXTREMELY marginal gain over pot, IF done well.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Understood, at least one benefit is that the wax is way quicker to heat in an heated ultrasonic bath.
I don't use water as medium, all is pure wax and additives inside the ultrasonic cleaner itself.
What is the healthy time for the wax to get melted, because I've just bought 1500watt multicooker for that purpose, haven't used it yet, and now I'm concerned that it may dmg the wax if is heatening too fast. Its not a rise cooker but it has the option to cook rise ,it has the option to choose the temperature ofcoruse. Please help 😃
i would say for a 500g lot of wax, that about 10 mins is around as fast as you would want to go for things to be optimally safe. if it is getting down to 5 mins - that is getting fast. It MAY be ok, but it can depend on the pot size re that. Ie if it is a small / tall pot - wax can be heated rapidly on the bottom and have nowhere to go as its trapped by unmelted top wax, and it can overheat IF what is heating is getting hotter than 90 to 100dg c. if it is temp controlled and the heating element does not exceed set temp - you will be fine. Larger pots with smaller amout of wax just to cover chain, it can melt in 5 mins ok without damage etc.
The easiest in general is to stick to the recommendations - sadly i cannot give a rating for the 1000 different instant / multi cooker pot models available out there - maybe yours is fine, maybe not. I can say a slow cooker on low with lid off you cant damage wax even if you leave it whilst you go on a round the world cruise. Many multicookers are fine, many may not be. I can say 1500w wont be, you will want to be using a gentle setting / temp.
good lucks!
Hi.. If you have to choose between Silca Chain Stripper or Mucoff bio degreaser, what will be your option? Thanks. 😉
I havent specifically tested chain cleaners but a) typically bio degreasers are not super strong on factory grease - they can get there just take more time / maybe more rounds b) there is not much point to bio degreasers as such if what you are cleaning off is not also just as enviro friendly, if what you are cleaning off is not enviro friendly, you still need to dispose reponsibly, c) chain stripper is not just a cleaning agent but a priming agent for wax adherence, d) refer to episode 20 re muc -off - even if bio degreaser is a perfectly admirably performing product, at this time i do not believe M-O are a company that should be supported with any revenue until their (*in my opinion) - horrific dishonesty changes.
how long does the secret chain lube last until next reapplication? Thank you.
Hey roborovski - ah even though simple question it is really hard to be accurate with answer as so much goes into treatment lifespan. Chain & its lubricant under so much workload that even relatively minor differences from one cyclist to the next re average & peak powers, level of contamination, type of contamination etc can add up to pretty stark lifespan differences. I recommend much more safe re lube intervals for ss drip vs silca as it is near impossible to over apply this lubricant, and it is better for drivetrain longevity to ensure everything always sliding on a super slipper wax coating vs pushing treatment lifespans - so my recommendations is err on earlier. Road really anywhere from 150 to 250km (dry, good conditions), offroad is massive variance but very ballpark i would say every approx 4 to 6 hours for MOST but again, very dusty and abrasive dust, or very high power (e bike etc) it may be as low as 2 to 4 hours for best result for drivetrain longevity. It may seem very frequent - but remember for ss drip it is super quick and easy to apply, work in, wipe excess (30 secs) and allow overnight set, it is super clean and stays really clean for a lot of applications, and it is really low friction super low wear so it is for sure worth just erring on re apply early if in doubt vs pushing. if chain is starting to sound obviously dry with "zzzz, zzzz, zzzzz, zzzzz" sound and feel on pedal stroke, that is pushing too long, however long it takes you to get to that point on average, re lube a couple hours before that happens - so if it gets obviously dry after 8 hours of riding on average, re lube at about 6, or if its really dry by 300km, re lube by 200 to 250 etc - you should get to know for your riding in not too much time or effort, and it is always best to be acting on what is right for you, vs a supposed claimed lifespan of X kms as Rider A might be able to go way longer than that and rider B should be doing way more frequent than that and there is going to be everything in between - one cyclists normal is not another cyclists normal.
Hi Adam, a whole new world opening up for me here… such great and well presented content, thanks for sharing your expertise!
Another question concerning UFO: would you say 10 min in 100 ml UFO cleaner in an ultrasonic cleaner and then rinsing with approx 1 l water would be enough to get a nice, clean YBN chain?
Thanks!
THanks Georgs! Yes indeed, if you have an ultrasonic, and you want the actual ultrasonic to do something over and above just soaking in a container - you will need to a) degas for 10 mins, b) it will need to be directly in UFO clean - ie do not put water in ultrasonic, then UFO clean in a container in the ultrasonic - there just wont be any cavitation really in the container. So unless your ultrasonic has a very small tank - you may need to use a lot more - ultrasonics should be filled to their fill line for the ultrasonic waves to work fully (in worst case, over time you can damage the transducers if you use tank below recommended fill level). Due to different viscosities if you use water or similar in tank and UFO clean in a container (especially a plastic container, but even in this case with UFO clean a glass beaker) there just wont be any cavitation & scrubbing in the UFO clean. To achieve any sort of cavitation with UFO clean you need to have directly in tank up to the tanks fill level, degas, then 10 min run. If that is not feasible, just soak in a container for 10 mins, shake vigorously, then rinse, and dry.
When you rinse initially water will be white, when it is clear, all good. I swish in container so i can see how white or clear it is after each rinse bath.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thank you very much Adam!! It is a 3 l cleaner, so pretty small. I guess I will give both procedures a go and see what works best for me.
But again, thank you very much for your very detailed answer! Much appreciated!!
Ok, now I realized that I would need at least 400 ml UFO. And if soaking and shaking is sufficient, I guess I should get some other jewelry for that ultrasonic cleaner 😂
@@georgs.6554 yep thats still fine though, whether you use 400ml or 100ml - it doesnt really matter - it is very concentrated stuff so 400ml will absorb 4x as much factory grease as 100ml - you will be able to use in future on many more chains. If you havent seen - chain prep guide (full, not concise) on instructions tab on website i include a Q&A with the PHD science lady that developed UFO clean, and you can see 400ml will absorb many chains factory grease, so dont stress if you want to put 400ml in, you just pour it back into a spare bidon / water bottle to keep for US cleaning again of future chains
@@zerofrictioncycling992 hmmm, then I may give it a go and see how it goes. I will end up preparing chains for 4 bikes anyway, so it may well be worth getting to know the procedures with the ultrasonic cleaner.
Adam, not sure how to express this (not a native speaker of English) but I think it‘s amazing that you take the time to walk me through this!!! I am very thankful! I guess it goes to tell that there are just quite a few very nice guys in the cycling world :-) thank you Adam!
Not sure what mineral terps is. I wonder if that’s what we call mineral spirits in the US. Can you confirm that it’s the same stuff?
i believe its called white spirits - but follow the chain prep guide - i think i have it covered in there that if unsure check with google what its called in your country as it varies a lot around the world, or it stuck chat to person at you local hardware store. At the end of the day any decent solvent thats works on grease is going to be fine, and you are going to finish with alcohol baths anyway to ensure no film. And if really stuck then ufo clean.
What about using UFO Clean? As that's now the recommended method on your website?
Yes that is a great option indeed for those at home. This vid here was more re taking through what ZFC does, as opposed to ultrasonic guide for those at home. It is not as economically viable for me to prep circa 3000 chains year with UFO clean as i cannot easily recycle it back, which would mean an increase in prep costs to pass on. Also mineral turpentine and metho is pretty cheap in australia. In many other countries around the world however this is not the case, and or they can be hard to obtain - or their similar solvents sold in that country / state hard to obtain & expensive, and so it makes more sense to just get a bottle of UFO clean as in many cases for at home use it doesnt really work out more expensive - it may work out much cheaper- as even though a bottle costs a bit, it lasts a very long time for private use.
authorized by what? Your customer stores?
Hi Adam, are there any fake ybn chains out there? Because there's a lot of different price in the online store, or the lower price chain is just the lower level of ybn?
I think so - i dont know for sure though. There is a big difference between H11 level chain and SLA chains though i know that much - so perhaps it is a H11 vs SLA 11?
Yes, but I found that the lowest price one is the S11s, have you tried this chain?
@@einarhays No i havent tried that and wouldnt myself. You are going to get what you pay for, and your chain is you hardest working component BY MILES, and it operates completely exposed to contamination, and if it gets too worn, will do wear to your other components. WHilst top level is not always needed (ie an ultegra level is fine you dont have to be dura ace, same with force level vs red etc) it is almost always a false ecomony to go budget level with your hardest working component.
For ybn brand we only stock and recommend the top of the line sla range as they are a great combination of both very fast and very wear durable (in the 10 & 11spd). The S level will not have the same chromium wear resistance treatment as the top level chain, you will have a much faster wearing chain.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thank you so much for your advice Adam😃, right now i'm using the S11s chain and i will change to the SLA level next time
After sterilising ur chain,i get 1,000 k before a rewax by using 620g Chain Wax PTFE w Tungsten Disulfide (550g Paraffin + 55g PTFE + 15g WS2 ,the tungsten is what makes the difference ,no wear on chain or casette ,2 yrs never had a problem
hey garry - that ratio of PTFE sounds like its from the Oz cycle vid - and that is a pretty nuts amount of PTFE. Note that most top lubricants have moved away from using PTFE as it is not great for environment, nor is its production, and even the original formula of Mspeedwax and UFO had 5 grams per pound, not 55 grams. That number was pulled out of Oz's butt as best we can tell simply as a "that should cover the ptfe base" - i do not believe there is any remotely tangible evidence to back such an amount. In early days of friction facts testing that led to the development of UFO wax and the first race chains - it was found that past a point (a very early, 5 gram point), adding more made no measurable difference, and that is with some pretty precise measuring instruments.
Also 1000km is a very very very long time per wax treamtment - and it would be interesting to have accurate chain and cassette wear tracking vs if one was re waxing more frequently. One can go that long, but wear is ALWAYS much higher vs if one re waxes earlier - so their can be difference between "never had a problem" vs achieving the optimum lowest friction and wear day in day out. I can assure that wear from km 700 to 1000 will be much higher than km 0 to 300 for instance.
Anyone know why Adam has a black box covering the ultrasonic equipment? And what Hertz he would use?
Ooh adam knows! The black box is acoustic panel with acoustic foam inside. Ultrasonic noise is not pleasant to listen to all day, so this covering reduces the sound greatly. One can buy proper enclosures but they are very expensive, that one cost me not much to make and works great.
Most ultrasonics are 40 khz. The elma 40h has a pulse and sweep wave function that moves through frequencies but i forget the range offhand and im belting through inbox too fast to google :)
Hello Zero Friction Cycling,
Do you/cyclists put any kind of lubrication on the cogs and chainrings themselves?
Best,
55hikky
no the lubrication from the chain takes care of those
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for the answer.
I have converted to wax lubing recently.
Just to clarify, we still lube the center (baring) of jockey/guide wheel, and all other typical areas near the chain (e.g. rear/front mech, cables) still require the typical liquid lube?
Or are there parts of the mech, that is not directly in contact with the chain, that doesn't need liquid lube given the waxed chain?
Sorry if this is answered in other parts of the channel.
Thank you for your time, research, and work.
Best,
55hikky
My regular chain wore out just waiting for him to get to the first step.
I know i know - im difficult to change re talking style.... i may not be your style, i apologise. Even still, you must be running muc-off lubricants! :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 lol, no apology needed. My mistake for not adding a :) so you know I am not an oily troll. You have me using parafin and a slow cooker.
Just add chapters to the video, that way we can use it as a reference later more easily
Why is it called Methalated Spirits if it it is mostly ethanol and not methanol?
I don't ride a bicycle at full effort unless the build is my own work . I have a friend who can ultrasound my frames if required .
I have no idea what that means, especially in relation to this video. From the comments on vids thus far im starting to wonder if this is an experimental chat gpt account?!
Did you ever check how much energy you need for destilling?
You can calculate it easily using the Specific Heat and the Latent Heat of these liquids. If there were no losses, 1 kWh of electricity will be enough for around 7 kg of Turpentine, which is a bit over 8 liters. For the spirits 1 kWh will be enough roughly for half of that, or 3.5 kg or about 4 liters. But since it's not thermally insulated some power will be lost for sure. And it will be a lot - half of the power or even more.
What temperature does turps and methylated spirits distill at? I'd like to try this.
Hey allan! it might vary a little bit by distiller, but the small vevor one i have for the methylated spirits is perfect at 90dg c, the larger (i think from vevor as well, and since video i have re hooked up the water pump after the cheapo original crapped out - saves me going back every 30 mins to top up water as it evaps out quickly once things get going) - i use 180 dg c for the turps. I have tried 160, but the flow is super slow, it is at dripping pace vs flowing pace. At 200dg c the flow is fast but its too much pressure for seal there was always failure points and vapour escaping - 180 works bang on for that unit. Even if you spent more on a fancier unit for turps, you are going to have issues with the seal as the turps vapours will destroy it, im still on the hunt for a sealant / gasket that is not rapidly degraded by the turps vapours - i have re do the gasket approx every month ish (albeit it is used once to twice a week for 3hrs at a time so more abuse than a home user)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thank you for the reply Adam. That's interesting I wouldn't of thought the temperature for distilling turps would be 180c I would of thought at that temp there would be a turps fire, turps brakes down plastics and rubber and l guess it's more aggressive when hot, but your right not worth doing if only doing 10 chain's a year, but it seems such a shame to waste it even though it's not a large amount, I've been enjoying your videos and I'm now hooked on chain waxing wish I did it years ago 😉.
@@alland2888 Yep me neither when i started it :). But i tried initially at 100, nothing happened. 120, nothing happened etc. For private people distilling is definitely not worth the cost / time - however it doesnt mean it needs to be wasted. Prior to doing commercially / the very early days of ZFC when volumes were low - i would simply keep turps back into original containers, and same with methylated spirits. Once a month where i live there is a free hazardous liquid waste disposal, so such things can be disposed of properly there. If one gives them bottles of who knows what, im not sure what they do with it. but if they know what is given to them, and such things like metho / turps are pretty easily recycled, then i believe they are able to do something with them for re use industry. For most at home it simply means saving maybe 2 or 3 years worth of solvent for chain preps then doing a run to whatever your states hazardous liquid waste disposal set up is.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Teflon / PTFE - that's the gasket material for Turpentine. No rubber can sustain Turpentine if over 70 deg. C. And 200 deg. C is extremely dangerous. Turpentine self ignites little bit over that... Production plants do that in inert atmosphere, not in open air...
@@2L40K Good think i dont do over 200g then :). 160dg c the evap is very slow, takes an age. 180 is the sweet spot, and it cant self ignite, the fumes are container (thats what is then condensing) - so we are pretty sweet. 5 years and countless hundreds of litres distilled - would be over 1000 litres back by now for sure - these days twice a week distilling back around 15 litres - i top up the gasket around every 3 months. I imagine production plants are dealing with rather larger volumes and in a different manner than my little distiller.
These 2L standard Chinese cleaners are only 50W, not 100W. They use standard 40 kHz, 50 W transducers. The 2L one has 1 transducer only - obviously it's bottom is square, it can not have more. 3L has 2 transducers and 6L has 3 transducers. So, we get: 2L is 50W, 3L is 100W, 6L is 150W. You can easily check that with a power meter.
smaller units can have more than one transducer - not all transducers are the same size, or power, or quality. A bit like speakers. Cheap units claimed vs actual can be very different, but some are good (vevor). However, cheap units also do not have very uniform cleaning - ie the transducer placement and type vs tank - i have a 3l vevor to see and it has 2 very distinct high power cleaning spots, in the tank, the remainder is much lower power - you can see this visually, and you can test this with aluminium foil strips. High quality units deliver very uniform cleaning power throughout the tank.
Businesses that need quality ultrasonic cleaning (Ie dental equipment sterilisation) perform regular checks of their ultrasonic units via way of a mesh of strips hannging into tank to ensure all areas of the tank are cleaning with uniform power. If the vevor - its claimed power matches real power, but its cleaning power is far from uniform unlike the GT sonic / elma units.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Yes, that's right, but this particular RS one is only 50 W even according to their catalogue. UA-cam does not like links in the comments, else I will post the catalogue. And, as I already mentioned - get a power meter and check it's actual power consumption. It will not be 100 W, but significantly less. For cleaning the small gaps of a chain probably a higher frequency will be more beneficial than higher power density. (Standard cleaners are 40 kHz.) Also, a pure and strong solvent is not the most efficient thing. An additive that lowers the surface tension (a surfactant, "like a soap") will produce a stronger cavitation and the process will go significantly faster even with a weaker / non pure solvent.
@@2L40K Yes indeed re proper ultrasonic cleaning solutions vs strong solvents and much stronger cavitation (again this is easily tested / demonstrated with al foil strips), but the frequency is likely not really an issue - the frequency i believe has at least as much to do with the viscosity of the cleaning solution - the less viscous generally the lower frequency is desirable.
For a bike chain, even if just in solvent, 50w and 40khz is fine, it may just take some more runs & time if one is wanting to get a perfect clean vs a more powerful unit at 35 / 37 or one with pulse / sweep wave - for the level we need to prep a chain people are fine if just use well and safely.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Benefit of a pure strong solvent is that you can easily recycle it, as you do. If it's a mixture of liquids, even getting it cheaper and better performing, recycling becomes much more complicated, and hence probably more expensive too. All it depends on the scale of operations and restrictions imposed.
Frequency determines the size of the bubbles and their number. At some frequency ranges the relation is close to linear. So, doubling the frequency will make 2 times more bubbles but they will be 2 times smaller. So, they will go into smaller gaps. That's what I mean.
I wish I knew what's best for a chain, but I don't. Also, there are multi-frequency cleaners. Some of them can jump between frequencies even while working, and some do this even gradually - frequency sweeping. All of this may be helpful to you, I don't know.
But the higher the frequency, the more directional cavitation becomes. That means, at high enough frequencies it will behave like light - only works in the line of sight of the transducer.
If I am you, I will go with a 6 L, because these are the smallest with a drain. And filling and discharge can be fully automated with valves and simple electronics.
On top of that there are also airtight lids. So, all of this does not evaporate in the room. It takes hours after all. The secret is, these containers that ultrasonic cleaners use are nothing but a standard food containers - Gastronorm. Almost all cleaners up to 27 L use standard Gastronorm containers. For example 2L is GN-1/6 100 mm deep. 3L is GN-1/4 also 100 mm deep. And 6 L is GN-1/3 but already 150 mm deep and so on... And there are some manufacturers that do airtight lids for vacuum storage of food. Very useful in electronics (PCB cleaning) since the fluid becomes dirty very slowly and can stay in the cleaner for months without draining.
How come not only use alcohol?
not a strong enough solvent for the factory grease.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 gotcha 👍👍
I will maybe buy a cheaper ultrasonic just to clean the oil of sometimes. Cheap chain makes no sense to have an expensive gear like you and its not really for racing. Just to expand life time of the chain by hopefully some 1000 kilometers.
I'm calling it a "Hair Gun," from now on, and if any of my fellow Americans challenge the term, I will officiously look down my nose and inform them that it is a bit of "Commonwealth slang," and then proceed to suggest that they would know this if they bothered to educate themselves about other cultures. 😤🧐🎩
I really wish there was a model on the market shaped like gun. Especially in america they should sell well!
Can anyone make a video how to clean your chain without building a freaking meth lab in your backyard 😂
You do alllllllllllllllll of this stuff for a CHAIN? Hmmmm. Seems a little OCD. I can say that as someone who actually knows what that is. You certainly meet Compulsion criteria B which states, "The obsessions or compulsions are time-consuming
(e.g., take more than 1 hours per day) or cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of function."
You should never put it back into the ground water. Doesnt matter how environmently friendly the cleaner is. My lub is 100 percent biological degradable but still not 100 percent friendly to nature