Are wax lubricants any good in the wet?
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- Опубліковано 10 тра 2023
- Recently it was raised on an Escape Collective podcast that Wax lubricants are no good for wet riding. In my style let me take about an hour to answer that question! But at the end, you should have a good idea of what lubricant choice path may be the most right for your riding.
Also link below to episode 11 video on lubrication testing in this space as referenced in my intro chatting;
• Episode 11 - Lubrican...
And episode 17 - waxing the concise version - to have a look at how easy this really is vs solvent flush cleaning;
• Episode 17 Immersive...
And lastly chain maintenance guide on ZFC website to help you remain low friction and wear regardless of which path is right for you - both on and off bike cleaning recommendations;
zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp... - Спорт
Presentation starts at the 11:00 mark
If you could add its message, too...
Thank you for this video, Adam. When I heard Zack's comments on the Geek Warning podcast (which is my new favorite podcast that you actually turned me on to), I was wondering if you would respond and I'm glad you did. I was definitely put off by what he said but you handled it with your typical grace and understanding. Great information as usual.
'Zero Friction' channel certainly doesn't shy away from a good rubbing 🔥🔥
As a petroleum engineer in the R&D sector and an avid cyclist, I can truly say that this channel is one of those that can truly be relied on with regards to testing methodology. This is one of my go to's when I need consumer advice. Never thought anyone would be in the right mind to take channel names too literally 😅. I think zero friction cycling is apt and cool. The giant selling normal sized bikes was a good clap back 😂. Another good video. Your channel has recently piqued my interest in pursuing R&D on novel lubricants.
Thanks so much for taking time to provide positive feedback - always very heartwarming !
This comment 100%.
I love your site, and all the work you are doing...it's critical. So much good stuff and it's important to get the message out as you do. Got me using Flowerpower drip vs. Squirt and it's a definite difference in how much soaks in chain vs. stay on outside of chain and makes a mess of the drivetrain. That said, I do wish you would keep these video's outlined, short, and on point/topic. I guess the video prep takes time, and it sounds like your just extremely busy.
thanks Damien! and yes apologies my video work is very average - a combination of a) far from my natural skill area and b) yes time - i am smashing out info updates when i can find a quick spot - things are pumping on all fronts indeed so i am rather time pressed - but i promise i will keep working on getting better over time!
Excited to hear about your thoughts for longer events. Audax/Randonneuring is pretty rough on the drivetrain.
that is in the works! i am nearly done prepping a slideshow for going long / multi day events
Josh from silca has a UA-cam video discussing the over/ under of a waxing vs a good wet lube for long events. In it he suggests bringing an extra prewaxed chain to replace a dirty the chain mid event can be a good option, especially for something like a long muddy gravel event.
Ditto with long touring rides. We're going from Prague to the Baltic in September, starting with an immersively waxed chain, and want to optimize additional lubes for wet or supplemental conditions. And we have to pack them along, so spare chains are not an option.
I'm also looking for a solution for long rides. I love the concept of immersing waxing, but I've ended up with a squeaky chain several times during long events. Used the Silica SS mid ride. Didn't know about the setting time issue but it seemed to work (= it wasn't squeaky anymore 😅)
I'm not really after marginal gains. What attracts me to immersive waving is mainly how clean it is.
Unpopular opinion: Use a bike with belt drive for wet or long rides and not worry about any cleaning.
I have been using MSW for about 2 months now and follow the ZFC process (thanks Adam); I have a two chain setup on both my CX bike and Road Bike. I did a road ride about a month ago (100K) that was horribly wet and road conditions terrible with debris. I felt the MSW held up really well for that ride. I hosed the bike down where I was staying, then when I got home from the trip the next day I just swapped over to my other chain and rewaxed the one that had been on the wet ride. Best thing I find about waxing is it just stays much cleaner and I love the fact neither of my bikes are now at risk of making my hands filthy. Even considering doing this for the kids bikes.
i have done it for the kids due to the dirty hands topic. holds there for ages 😅
@MFR03 I think I'll definitely change to waxing on their next bike upgrade for sure.
Wax flaking is (for me) at least as dirty as chain oil.
@@tommyrq180 by no way. it doesnt smear it doesnt stick.touch the drivechain no issue swipe the floor no issue... 😅🤙
Love the info. Got me into hot waxing. But there is sooo much info in these vids it’s hard to digest.
I’ve been waiting for this video. Because I really want to ride my bike in the rain. I use Silca hot wax.
Very timely video Adam, just started out with my the first with imersive waxing treatment after a brief discussion with you on previous video comments.
Definitely noticed the difference in drivetrain noise with imersive waxing over drip wax (True Tungsten All Weather). Being in Ireland, I got caught out in torrentiall rain a couple of days back. I wiped the chain down post ride with damp cloth and warm water. The chain still felt like it had a decent wax coating on it post wipe down so i didn't apply drip lube top up. Alas the next day I grabbed the bike for a post work training session and there was a small amount of surface corrosion present. So here's my question, is a damp cloth not sufficient to wipe down after a wet ride or would something like brake cleaner sprayed into a cloth be too harsh for a wipe down?
Best to take off the chain, it will dry much quicker. Use a dry cloth to dry the chain, final surface wipe with turp which is alcohol based and will evaporate quick
A wipe down will help delay oxidising a bit, but definitely post a wet ride after wipe down you still must re lube with a wax lube (if waxing) if you are not going to re wax chain otherwise it will still oxidise overnight. A brake cleaner spray will definitely help if that is just the plan, but if you are going to do that, why not just take that time to put a very quick coating of wax drip on to protect that will only take 20 secs.
Thanks for the shout out Adam! #adamsarelegend
I ride about 7,000 miles on gravel in the warm months in Minnesota. I was hesitant to wax due to experts saying that wax wasn’t good in wet conditions. Finally gave immersive waxing a try this summer, using MSW and a drip wax between immersions. I Did a gravel race last Saturday on a freshly waxed chain and rode for a solid hour in a thunderstorm mid-race. I was expecting to need to stop and add lube but it never happened. Bottom line was the wax held up well and the chain was the cleanest part on my bike. It was about 8 hours until I was able to clean the bike. The chain had zero rust on it, while my wife’s showed quite a bit of rust running NFS. I removed the chain which made cleaning the bike much easier and threw chain #2 on when I was done. Including turning on my crockpot and boiling the water to clean the dirty chain, I spent 2 minutes rewaxing the chain. I’m convinced that waxing IS the way to go for gravel and even wet conditions.
Thanks for taking time to share, and sorry for delay reply - im trying to do a catch up sweep! And yes it is for sure a pervasive misconception re wax and wet. One that is still commonly pushed by a lot of cycling media. But we are working on it!
thanks for your work about friction in cycling. i have one question: what's the best lube or wax when you practice ultra cycling when you need to lubrificate your transmission during competition for 4-5 days (you wait when you use wax normally)? and same question for bikepacking for 1 week or more? its more simple lube wet or drip wax in this case?
thanks
Hey Adam, wet rides: I just did a 2 hour road race on the wettest of rides, windy, full on rain, standing water, completely wet sock even with rain covers and the waxed chain help up really well, it wasn't any nosier at the end. Also, the chain had about 400 km of riding since last waxing so it wasn't a freshly waxed chain. I'm using the Super Secret wax. Definitely better than most lubes! The Silca Synergetic is also amazing in the wet. Did a 3 hr wet ride last year and chain was still quiet at the end of the ride but cleaning lubed chains and cassettes is way more work than waxed ones.
Awesome real world feedback thanks tony - Yes msw rate msw for generally at least 2 to 3 hours in full rain (road) - so hot melt should match that too. It is tough for drip lubricants overall to really beat that - most wet lubricants / oils will still be washed off after a couple of hours - with a couple of possible exceptions we are going to be working to try to confirm over time - they just make the more obvious top up choice if needed for very long harsh events. For most - the top immersive waxes will do a mighty fine job. I need to try and find out a bit more information on what zac on escape collective is seeing - he is very knowledgeable including re all things wax - so when he see's that in general wax is rubbish in the wet / snow etc - i need to try and find out more what is behind that - is it wax drip, is it diy wax, is it wax lubes put on top of factory grease / wet lubes - which just doesnt work etc etc. Will be trying to get a direct line to zac if i can.
I have also had good results with Silica SS immersive wax. And I follow advice Adam gave me long ago. If it’s a wet dirty ride I clean in the pot then immerse it in the immersive wax to rewax
Great content adam, love your website as well 👏.
Thinking about winter and have a question for you. I live in the uk and ride road throughout winter where there is some water/mud/crap on the roads most of the time. In these conditions is it ok to wipe/dry after ride and apply tru tension for a few applications before immersing in wax?
Thanks Jonathan very glad you are enjoying!. yes indeed that is a great path for many as re waxing every time can be a bit much, but you do need to re lube post wet rides with wax to ensure protecting from oxidation. Re wax as often as practical is the easiest way to reset contamination vs solvent flush cleans with other paths which is much more of a pain & expense, and if not done - then wear and friction becomes a big expense on components.
The main thing to take note initially is that wax drip need a set time as carrier is water, and this set time can be extended when applying on a wet chain (and application a bit diluted). Try to apply as soon as practical on return to give max set time. If wax drip not set, lifespan is very low next ride ESPECIALLY if the next ride is wet, so initially it may be worth packing bottle with you if doing a long ride in case that application gives out - but after a bit of use you usually get things dialled ok and know whether its going to have no probs or may be pushing treatment lifespan etc.
the flower power wax handles rain really well. after a wet ride i just give it a wipe and re-apply
Interesting! In one video he also mentions that Flowerpower is not easy to get out and not even the hot water method works. Its because its partial made of plant based wax. Maybe a 100% plant based wax would work even better in the wet. There are to companys who claim that their wax is plant based. Looks like the plant based wax isnt water soluble.
I’m a SILCA hot and drip user for 3years. Ride in all conditions. I rotate 2 chains when more than 3 days of wet riding. Going off today’s Strava with 56mm of rain overnight only myself and 5 other in Brissie rode in the wet. The rest indoors on Zwift. I get 16-20,000 out of a chain. Cassette and chainring still ✅✅
brilliant - thanks for feedback input!
Thanks for all the info. I am curious if you have ever tested the Mountain Flow plant based chain lubes? Thanks again
no havent heard of them - unless there is something super compelling or they book in, they will be on a list of about 1000 products to try to test!
Great video Adam thanks! I have one question. I have been immersive waxing for about a year and have managed to avoid wet riding for the most part. However that is going to change in the very near future as I will start bike commuting this fall in Oregon. My question is should I thoroughly dry the chain with a heat gun between the wet ride and dropping it in the wax pot? I really appreciate your work and am totally sold on the benefits of waxing.
Thanks Russ! ah that is a very good question i need to cover that - trouble is there is some conflicting information out there and i have been hoping to chat to josh poertner first as normally we are pretty aligned on this stuff, but not here. Here we go;
> Silca say you can just re wax wet chain.
> Mspeedwax say you should dry chain - they have tested waxing wet chains, and found water still in the wax after cooling and cutting apart.
> Over the years and thousands and thousands of waxing customers - we get about a handful of cases every year of a waxer experiencing fast wear of their chain. the last 5 years i think it has turned out every single one of them has been boiling water flush rinsing before every re wax, then waxing chain wet. THe premature wear has stopped when we do a do over with fresh wax, new chains and stopping that practice (they have always been road riders who dont need to boiling water flush rinse!!), or - for those who must - ensure dry chain before waxing.
Hence my instructions are to dry chain. I think a little wetness will be ok, but frequent wet waxing - we have more information pointing towards this is causing issues than i would like. I boiling water rinse chains a lot in winter but i have an airfryer for the workshop and bung them in that for 10 mins post flush and boom, super dry - wax - and im still running same chain on my oldest mtb that does all the winter work - its on its 7th year now and at 0.1% wear - so the frequent flushing is an easy way to stop a lot of crap going into wax pot, but i would highly recommend taking extra couple mins to dry first.
Sorry - even my answers to simple questions run a little long....... I have a condition....... :)
Thanks, I’ll be making the extra effort to dry the chain thoroughly before rewaxing😊
In one video you did mention that Flowerpower drip wax is plant based wax (its a mix with parrafin) and dont get washed out easy with hot water. So it also may hold up better with wet drives. In europe I know two companys that offer drip wax which is 100% plant based wax. Would be interesting how they would compare.
I tried Waxing it’s ok for dry rides but it just doesn’t hold up to a wet ride. So back to lube for me. Cheers from Adelaide 😊
I've one bike with a mix of soy wax, graphite powder and a small amount of paraffin wax wbout 5%. Do immersive and change at 200kms. I found it held up well inq a rain ride of about 1 hr.
I'd love to see your take on the efficiency of the new SRAM MTB Eagle Transmission flat top chain
Me too - outright efficiency testing i really rely on ceramic speed denmark lab - i will be pestering them. Eagle chains are a good bit slower than existing flat top (which are not fast, but not a disaster) - it will be very very interesting to see where these land
Thanks for another interesting video Adam!!! If you have back to back wet rides and use a drip like silca ss for a top up lube(24hr cure time)would using a hair dryer or heat gun help cure the wax drip a lot quicker?I know your a busy man Adam and I feel bad about bugging you but hows the wax x testing going?
Hey Glenn! yes you can do that BUT.... there is some danger of over heating the wax in spots - likely not a major issue, but if you blast / cook the wax in spots it will just not work as well there re performance / wear protection / lifespan. SS Drip is probably the longest to set - last check with josh he recommended a full 24hr set time minimum if the ride is going to be wet. Tru Tension tungsten all weather likely has the shortest set time so may be worth trying that one out if SS drip re lubes not quite lasting.
And yes i was hoping to include a hot wax x update in this vid, but surprise, i ran way long - will do one just on that i think to do a much shorter one next - will try to do one sooner vs later on this to get caught up a bit. In short, it is both amazing in some respects but some definite caveats to be aware of.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 as interested in this one, mainly looking to use only SS Drip, if wet ride do you have tips to dry chain and treat in hope won't show corrosion much if at all as wait on it to cure?
Good video, I've gone do the hybrid route but with 2 chains, can you tell me what's the best way to store my 2nd chain and do I brake the wax in the pins before storing it away, at the minute I've just hung it up in my shed.
This is my first waxing of chains thanks to zero friction, but slow cooker took ages to melt the Wax, but it is an old one, so what would you say about along it should take to melt?
Hey zeeb - mostly melt time shouldnt be an issue as for most it is just pop on and come back whenever later - a slow cooker for most it is about a 30 min melt time approx. but if it is way longer and its becoming a pain - then you can look at an instant pot (multi cooker) with a slow cooker option - they will tend to heat in a bout 10 mins which is ok. Much faster than that risks damaging wax - especially if you have a high ish amount in as the bottom wax can be trapped and overheated before the wax above melts. If the paraffin is getting too hot too quickly it begins to break down and lubricity / treatment lifespan is affected. So dont use a rice cooker - they typically blast the heat in like a kettle. Or a pressure cooker - not suitable either, we arent looking to boil things and hold in steam pressure!
I currently use two chains (will add a third when I learn all tricks and tips from all Mr. Zero Friction Cycling). To begin with, I started by using regular Paraffin wax. I use each chain for three days, and wax them on the off day. If it rains, I immediately wash it with hot water and wait for an off day to wax it. It's really great because I no longer have a black wheel, cassette, chain...super clean. I must learn how to clean the wax after longer use, any idea?
Let it cool down. Take it out of the pot. Must dirt should be at the bottom. Remove the bottom wax (with the dirt), just scratch it off
I love a good irony story 😀👍
What about bikes that are almost always rode in the rain?
I'm just about to give immersion wax another try, since I do currently have a bike that I only ride in dry weather, where I think that'll work well. I tried it diy with some parafin canning wax around 15 years ago and it was great until it rained, which made it kind of useless for my daily commuter (need to rewax/swap chains daily). If I have a couple chains ready to go, I think it'll be easy enough to handle on my good weather bike the odd time when I get caught out, and it'll be nice to keep it clean, and running smooth.
The big issue is what to use for my "foul weather" bike? I can see how a "reset" is fine for a bike that occasionally gets a bad ride in the rain on a weekend race, or occasionally caught out when the weather unexpectedly turns, but it's not unusual for me to ride that bike on my commute for weeks straight, where every single day is very wet for at least one, and sometimes both directions.
I'm currently using pro gold. I just ran out of one bottle of extreme, and got a bottle of the standard stuff to replace it. It seems to work well from the perspective of staying on the chain reasonably well(no squeeks/noise/audible grinding), and while it is definitely a "wet" lube, it feels more greasy, and less tacky than some others I've used in the past. (Triflow, especially)
I've tried drip waxes, boeshield, and squirt, both of which have worked well for me on my dry bike as long as I've cleaned the chain well, and never mixed with anything else, but neither seems to hold up well enough in the wet (need to add some after every wet ride), and when they do get gritty, they're impossible to clean.
The pro gold is probably not great, but to me it seems like it might be one of the better ones where "resetting" is not practical, on a bike that will often be used in pretty much impossible conditions.
If you had to ride a bike in the wet pretty much every day, knowing that it'll be seeing a lot of water, and a significant amount of grit. (But certainly more wet than gritty, unlike offroad/mud etc.), what would you use? Obviously I just stick with cheaper parts on that bike, knowing that it'll be impractical to properly maintain them, but I'm open to suggestions.
Yes that is the question and considerations many face indeed.
From zfc perspective, i do not believe there is a faster, easier and more cost effective way to reset chain contamination and keep chain low friction and wear than doing an immersive re wax. DOing it every day is not practical for 99%, so using with an immersive wax compatible lubricant - in this case like tru tension tungsten all weather (lesser set time) during the week and re set with a re wax each week - that is much easier than doing a solvent flush clean.
However the wax treatment and TTAW need to last the length of your rides. If you had longevity issues with DIY paraffin in the past, it was likely just not a great paraffin - ie it may have been too brittle a grade = short lifespan, or too soft which can have same problem. Msw / hot melt / rex 11+1 mix should all last at least 2 hours in heavy rain (road), and longer if less wet. TTAW however will give out earlier than an immersive wax.
If it isnt viable then yes a wet lube that is able to stay on for your rides is needed, but if you want the chain to remain low friction after the first wet ride - you need to weigh up again your own practicalities around how often you reset and how much effort, time and cost you put into that flush clean - ie a quick flush to remove the worst only vs a full reset.
Pro gold is unlikely to be a great option. Their extreme was not tested by friction facts, but the normal pro gold was and it was 50th out of 55 lubricants tested at the time. It was bad. And that was 10 years ago. A good product 10 years ago is way behind the top products now - like an iphone 1 is not matching an iphone 14. A very poor product 10 years ago.....
Over time i will be trying to concentrate some testing specifically on finding longest lasting wet conditions options - but..... again there is difference between a product that suits for ONE ride day, vs a product that is then easily reset to be low friction and wear for day after day - for that, at this time, i just dont know of any way easier than simply re waxing, it takes 3.5 mins of actual physical labour time, and no solvents. IF that + immersive wax compatible lubricant last the distance & conditions for you - thats my top recommendation at the moment, if they do not - synergetic is pretty much the top wet lubricant we know at the moment, but i need to do more work in this space.
If the inconvenience of doing it everyday results from waiting for the "Crockpot" to heat up (1hr). Get an instapot 3quar. Takes 15-20 mins and is temperature controlled. The geezer from Silca videos uses one. In addition to another chain or two, you'll find a seamless way to make it work. The cleanliness and wear time are more than worth it. Just my thoughts. Peace
Thanks so much for all of your advice and videos. I'm toying with the idea of immersion wax on my winter beater as I'm getting tired of replacing drivetrains. My commuter bike lives outside unfortunately. I do imagine leaving it outside without a chain would decrease the likelihood that it gets stolen at least. :)) OTOH the idea of spending a single minute in the pitch black morning fiddling with a quick link in the cold and rainy winter... Well that makes me hesitate. I'll probably whip up some numbers on approximately what I'd save each day of having to do that and figure out if that amount is worth the frozen fingers during those few months.
For your case really you would want to go the combo approach, 2 chains on rotation. So chain 1 for 1 week, and when get home - wipe chain and add a top up coating of Tru tension tungsten all weather to protect chain from rust and also have it ready to survive the next day. Repeat for the working week, then on the weekend, take chain 1 off, put on freshly waxed chain 2, and chain one goes in the wax pot to reset contamination that has built up over the week. if one wants to be bothered - depending on time and cost of stuff - then boiling water flush rinses and dry before pop into wax pot.
There is overall no easier way to reset a chain thats been hammered with wet riding that just popping it into a hot spa bath of wax. Vs doing solvent or degreaser flush cleans to re set chains etc - its not even a contest how much easier and more pleasurable it is to reset chain via an immersive wax!
If i was me and i had a winter commute - the above is what i would be doing. I do a lot of offroad mtb on wet days here so am well versed at resetting my mtb chains post wet mud, and it is such a quick and easy thing with waxing vs any other way of getting chain back to silky smooth awesomeness again. However post training - it is easy to reset after each wet ride. on a working week commute - doing so wont be practical, so next best is just to press on for the week, and then do on the weekend. Yes there will be more wear vs resetting everytime, but you have to do what is pracitcal, and it will still be less wear, and much less time, than every other option that is not the above path. The only options that are less time is just to keep adding drip lube, but after a couple of weeks, one is paying big time re wear and costs if not taking some path to frequently reset contamination.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Oh no, I'm sold! Next paycheck I'll grab an extra chain or two and the other necessary bits :) For the 9 speed I think I'll try the diy route first with some food grade wax, then move up the foodchain if that isn't holding up. Exciting new chapter leaving the wet lube mess behind 😂 My drivetrain and bike thank you.
@@inconspicuous-nobody hahaha - yep grand times ahead! And yeah for sure just cheap but decent paraffin base for DIY wax for wet commuting duties is all groovy, it will still smash the pants of wet lube overall re ease of maintaining a much lower friction and wear chain.
I can say, based on my personal experience, driving on the roads of Moscow in winter (on average, a slight minus Celsius and a bunch of reactants create a mixture of water, salt and sand)... Most wax lubricants do not work, especially drip ones. But if you add a little marine grease to the wax, the situation will seriously change because such a composition washes off the chain much more slowly and the lubricant protects the chain much better from such an aggressive composition under the wheels
what wax are you mixing the marine grease with, and what ratio? I have it on my long list to find / test the most extreme conditions chain lubricant as really as best as i know none of the commercial products can really hold up to the harshest stuff (ie full mudder belgian cx events!).
Typically the top immersive waxes hold up the best overall as they are a solid bonded to the chain metal and so are not WASHED off, but will be abraded off by contamination brought in by the water. Many drip / wet lubes are both washed out and abraded off. However all tested have pretty / very limited lifespans in very harsh conditions, so am hunting for something better.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 There are no clear proportions because I use not only wax, but also shoe polish based on it (vaseline more than 30%, wax more than 30%, about 15-30% paraffin, vegetable oil 5-15%) and I use Divinol Fett Top 2003 lubricant about less 5%. Because of the salt, a SRAM 1110 type chain rusts even if the bike is brought into a warm, dry room and partially wiped, but when using this composition, the protection lasts about 60-100 km, if you use lubricants like Addinol Kettenhaft-Spray, they are washed off literally in 20 km if there is a lot of “water”. There are a couple of local bernds who make winter wax mixtures; they collect dirt less actively but also hold up worse.
Lots of great information in this video. Most of your literature elsewhere states that it's important to dry the chain with a hair dryer before re-waxing (e.g. after a boiling water flush). My question: is it ok after a boiling water flush to give the chain a quick wipe and then wax it? Does it matter if the chain isn't totally dry before waxing?
ah yes - i did cover that in a low friction update at start of a recent vid - basically yes you do want your chain to be quite dry before waxing. Waxing wet can lead to water building up in wax - it wont necessarily evap out, and this may lead to wax bonding issues. Mspeedwax have specifically tested this and found when cut open wax puddles of water inside etc. Over the years we have also had some cases of premature chain wear whilst waxing, and the person boiling water rinsing every time but not drying, and then when that behaviour changed - take 2 chain has been sweet re longevity. So whilst you dont have to have perfectly dry per se - 2 to 3 mins with hair dryer before waxing is definitely the recommended path.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks so much for such a detailed explanation. I'm really good at following instructions as long as I understand the "why" behind things, and you have certainly explained that part to me. Keep up the great work.
Totally agree, immersive waxing is the way to go.
I went the diy route and just mixed some parafinewax and PTFE-powder in a slowcooker.
I've 3 chains, every few months I do a boiling clean and emersive waxing.
Before and after every wax-job I drag a magnet thru the molten wax to get rid of most metal contamination.
When my chain starts being more noisy than I like, I change it for the next one. probably once a month, I'd guess.
I avoid riding in wet weather, I only cycle for the fun of it.
Good info, Thanks.
PTFE is useless and bad for the environment!
Hey Adam, just wondering how long cassettes typically last with wax treatment? Am using Silca hot melt currently and relaxing every 300km or so with 2 chains in rotation. I’m running SRAM Axs force so cassettes are really expensive and as a uni student, would be good to get a timeframe on how long it usually takes to wear out.
ah yes great consideration indeed as they sure are expensive! Sram steel cassettes are generally very hard wearing, and will generally see at least 2 chains through them as long as chains are replaced by 0.5% wear, and that you are running a good lubricant choice that does not become abrasive between chain roller and teeth. Immersive waxing with a top wax is you lowest wear option, and silca hot melt is brilliant. Rewaxing by circa 300km is also great vs pushing, and you keep a think wax layer between roller and teeth. And two chains on rotation is also a great way to roll to minimize drivetrain running costs - so you are doing all the right things.
In short it should be very long. On a hot melt you should be getting circa 10,000km from a force or red level chain (be wary if rival, rival chains do not have hard chrome treatment, and are likely to wear much more quickly vs red or force level, just like we see with eagle GX being much much faster wearing vs x01 / xx1). So i would hope you would see at least 20,000km from a cassette, and it could well be more. Over the years there have been quite a number of waxers getting 10 to 15,000+km from a chain to a genuine 0.5% wear mark, and 2 to 3 chains to steel cassette so we have seen cassettes go well over the 20 and 30k, and chainrings more or less indefinite for the time they would own the bike (ie 50k+).
*note i believe some of the wider range force cassettes the largest cog may be alloy - srams alloy cogs do not last long, if your largest cog is allow, my recommendation is only use it when you really must - that is what i have to do with my eagle cassettes, i barely used the 50t, and still it is by a long way the most worn cog.
do you open the quick link and re-use it?
@@arhu74 yep - refer to master link FAQ guide - page 8, on re using master links
zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Master-Link-FAQ-Guide.pdf
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks, absolutely perfect response which I’ll be going off going forwards. I remember hearing you say that the last tooth wears quick so I’ve avoided using it. Running 10-33 so on really steep grades it’s impossible not to though. Tempted to get 10-36 but worried the difference between gears might be a bit much
@@arhu74 I find the quick links on my SRAM Force Axs chain usually lasts around 3 to 4 uses. Per adams recommendations I use a new quick link for races (especially crits) just to be safe.
Do you recommend a flush and redip in the pot every muddy ride on mtb
What do you think about using steam to clean the chain? Will the heat and a little bit of water remove the contaminants or will it drive them deeper into the chain? Any other drawbacks to be aware of such as overheating the wax?
yep i dont think that would be effective, to remove contamination you want to properly melt the layers deep inside and be able to flush that out at the same time, which a bath will do. However - if one could only do on bike, and had a pretty powerful steamer - meh it would be better than doing nothing (if one was just going to be applying a wax drip lube vs re waxing) - but yeah one would want a pretty good one and go hard or washing more in vs out could be an issue. Over heating wax wont be a concern - paraffin is fine still at 100 and a bit over, and most should be dripping off anyway. But if it is pre re wax, as chain will be off, just boil up a kettle and bath instead.
Steam would essentially be a hot gas, not a fluid. It would likely do a fine job of removing the wax by lowering it’s viscosity, or even turning it into a vapor, but it would not be as effective in removing ground sand or metal as a fluid bath would.
As most chain waxers have at least two chains in rotation, I would recommend warming up the wax pot ASAP after returning from the rain ride, and drying the chain as much as you are capable of before trading out chains and immersing the old chain in the bath. Water sinks to the bottom of your wax and can get caught in your chain if you don’t know it’s there. Having at least one fully set chain ready to go is the easiest way to keep your drivetrain clean and happy for an all-weather commuter.
I believe the truth tungsten has a alcohol carrier, so they evaporates really quick. It’s nice I use that as recommended by I believe zero friction cycling or molten speed wax
I looked and couldn’t find an answer to this question; do you recommend rewaxing when I wash my bike? I figured if I’m taking it off to wash the bike, why not just rewax but not sure if it even needs to be removed when washing the bike. My process is to Run my chain through boiling water and rewax every time I wash the bike. Is this overkill? Your thoughts on this ?
Hey Troy - really depends on post what type of riding, how wash bike etc. If it is post dry road riding - there is zero point to boiling water flush rinse chain - that really should be reserved for post proper wet rides only. If you wet by washing bike a relatively freshly waxed chain, you likely wont have any oxidation issues, just wipe chain dry. if chain is well ridden and wax abraded off outside of rollers, you may. Some people spray a cloth and wash frame (thats what i do except post mud rides), some take a garden hose to road bikes post dry riding for reasons that elude me etc - there is a lot of variation re what people do re washing and what may get onto chain as part of that process.
If taking chain off and its not a hassle to re wax, then for sure, just re wax - the more frequent the rewax, the more the chain will be almost wear immortal. Very frequent boiling water flushes when not needed can do more harm than good over time.
What about the cold?
What would you recommend for temperatures below 0c?
again it depends on how practical for the person - overall immersive waxing still has all the same advantages, and it wont suffer viscosity changes as such once broken in which can make some lubricants more draggy - however the time to break wax in in very cold temperatures can be much longer - so a freshly waxed chain can itself be very draggy for a good bit post re wax - which if an issue again that time to break in (or break in prior indoors at ambient) - may or may not be practical or it may be no issue at all etc
Silca says you can use Super Secret drip to "top up" a hot wax treatment of their Screte wax.
Does Rex black diamond have a drip lube product that can be used in conjunction with their Rex black diamond hot melt wax?
Not yet. A little bit confusingly their black diamond drip lubricant which they have had on the market for a long time - this is a wet lubricant so is not compatible, However you can use silca ss drip, ufo drip or tru tension tungsten all weather with black diamond wax just like you can with hot melt or mspeedwax.
Thanks for your video.
I have gone from effeto mariposa (pretty good stuff) to Black Diamond Hot Wax.
I ride daily in any condition - what is there against drying the chain after a wet ride and go with effeto mariposa until the next hot waxing? Why do you only reccomend certain brands in combination with hot wax and why is effeto mariopsa not one of them?
effeto mariposa "FLOWERPOWER WAX" is sunflower seed based not paraffin wax so it will contaminate the wax pot sadly. Adam sells FP on his site and gives it high praise as one of, if not the best drip waxes so he definitely has nothing against it as a stand alone product.
@@chris1275cc good point!
If the wax for the wax drip is a completely different wax base than the immersive wax, then this may cause adherence issues / things just not playing as well as would like. BD will be highly refined paraffin base with a blend of couple of things to improve base wax longevity, effetto is sunflower seed wax base and is a much more oil wax. Immersive waxes need to bond to the chain metal to provide a lasting coating, if bond is poor, treatment lifespan is poor with chain feeling and sounding dry very quickly after re wax - and if kept riding like that, higher wear than desirable is likely . The drip waxes that also use a highly refined paraffin base are currently the only ones we are pretty safe to recommend using with the top known immersive waxing - others may be ok, but they also may not - and you may also contaminate the wax in the pot such that even if you stop doing in future, bond / treatment lifespan will be poor until you change to fresh wax (cleaning pot in between to ensure no oily contamination)
@@chris1275cc No its a mix. Its also contain paraffin. Airolube and Toniq have pure plant based wax. And it looks like plant based wax is more water resistant.
I think the question isn't so much "will wax last a good length ride in the wet?" as "which lube will I end the ride with the least chain wear with?".
We know that a longer wet ride is going to introduce a lot of contaminants into the chain, something that wet lubes aren't good at handling. It's a bad scenario for a chain no matter the lube. If anything, the best option would likely be a water based lube like what the Scottoiler uses applied liberally and frequently during the ride to try and keep flushing contaminants out.
I remember reading about pro mechanics basically dipping a chain in melted grease for wet races, that might also be a good option. The grease would, to a certain extent, prevent contamination getting deep into the chain due to its more viscous nature. I don't envy anyone the job of cleaning that drivetrain though!
yes very true - the main thrust of that question is really to ensure that part is covered first as if the treatments continually fall well short of need, then high wear will indeed be the result. There is no point one using wax lube X if it continually gives out a long way before their typical ride is done.
And yes i tested Flaer Revo system, but it was a private test, and they wished the results to remain private. I am not sure if they are still pushing this, i dont think it would ever catch on as the set up is a little bit, an also the lubricant itself is VERY THIN as the pump is rather tiny, so it would need to be on max all the time for a wet ride, one would be going through a good bit of their specific lubricant.
The hot melt grease is definitely going to be an area of investigation specifically for very harsh events........ The right grease immersive may well be the numero uno for going longer, but still some events simply nothing is going to last (ie a wet paris roubaix or unbound or anything like those)
Gritty full wet Oregon days--the wax doesn't hold up at all. I'll be going wet lube for winter, and immersive wax in summer. We get rain all winter, and zero rain all summer. Perfect setup. Looking forward to wax on my MTB too, where it's dry hot and dusty all summer.
yep that can be the case for some riders - what wax/s have you tried and what wet lube are you using and how do you maintain that wet lube / how long are components lasting?
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I actually went bananas this spring on the immersive wax treatment after falling down the rabbit hole with you, Dylan Johnson and Silca Josh. I was using whatever wet lube I had, tri flow usually and my stuff has always lasted a long time as I'm light and don't make a lot of power. First I got their Super secret drip on wax and just started using int on dry chains without cleaning them and lo and behold just that worked better than wet lube. Later I got the Super Secret bag o' wax and cleaned my chains, got some new ones and cleaned them, and went full wax. Only when I'm in a long day of full rain, or with a group with lots of spray for a long time does it totally go south. I little drizzle here and there has been no problem. Summer will be wax season here. In the winter I think I will give Silca Synergetic a whirl based on your testing. I have a new road bike with 11sp DA di 2 and it will never see rain or wet lube. Thank you!
@@h20s8804 ah most excellent thanks for the feedback, and yes indeed if you do find that for some riding a wet lubricant suits better, synergetic will be a different league vs tri flow. Tri flow is VERY old now, it has not been competitive with top wet lubricants for a long long time, they are just living off legacy name. I normally use the example of say an i-phone 1 is not really a match for an i-phone 14, but in this case tri flow meeting that analogy would be a stretch. A lot has changed / improved in the decades since that came out!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for the info! And all your testing.
32:42 Avoid Smoove if you ride in sub zero temps, at least in -7C and below, I experienced shifting issues, the chain did not move smoothly.
I agree with them about the name, I immediately returned my Argon 18 when I discovered it was made of Carbon fibre and not a Noble Gas, Lying bast**ds.🤣
🤣🤣🤣
I went to return my Carrera after realising that Porsche didn't make/produce the bike
ZFC is a great name! Do not mind those mumblers
Hi Adam. I've done immersion waxing using Silca and I'm topping it up with their Secret Lube about 3x before doing another immersion. Just a day after topping it up, I've had 2 hours of riding in pouring rain, and worse I forgot to immerse or even wipe the chain immediately. Now there are bits of rust forming, so I did an immersion, but the rust remained. What should I do if I need to remove the rust? I'd greatly appreciate your help here. Thanks!
Hey rdr - i wouldnt overly worry - it is just going to be an aesthetic issue as the chain will start to oxidise externally well before internal where it would be a problem, as there is much greater air exposure outside vs in. External it wont cause a performance issue, just not the greatest look. It may not wear off very quickly as initially now that rust will be a bit protected from wear by the wax on top of it, if its an unsightly bother you can hit those parts with a small stiff wire brush to scrub off, or a small wire brush attachment on slow speed with drill. If it is modest though, i wouldnt worry - it will go eventually with wear, and again mild external rust does not impact what is important which is how chain parts are sliding against each other inside chain.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks Adam. I'm thinking of a DIY solution to help me scrub off the rust and it goes like this:
1. Submerge the chain into a vinegar with baking soda solution for 15-20 minutes (I'm thinking of doing this in an ultrasonic cleaner as well).
2. Scrub off any remaining rust, if any.
3. Rinse off immediately with hot water.
4. Do immersion waxing immediately.
Would this help or would this aggravate and corrode further the chain?
Thanks again
@@rdr33 I cant see how that would corrode further as corrosion will take a bit of time with air - but also i have nenver tried ultrasonic with vinegar and baking soda you might have to rely on google re is that effective on rust.
The only other step i would do there is dry chain via hairdryer or heat gun before waxing, i dont recommend re waxing wet chains.
The options of wax based drip seem difficult to find at my LBSs. Squirt is available. Is this a viable option?
it isnt preferrable, it is a very different wax base - we believe it is slack wax which is really the unrefined version so it is much more oily. There is a reason squirt is about 1/3rd the price of the highly refined base wax lubricants options. If you want to purchase from your LBS vs online - it is time for your LBS to improve their range of top options to help their customers remain low friction. A lot of LBS stock a lot of rubbish on their shelves (not counting squirt in that, in and of itself it is a overall perfectly good product for many), whilst so many great products brough to market cannot get a spot on the shelves whilst they peddle finish line and muc off. The more customers who have a chat with their LBS store about that, the more likely the LBS will start to stock some of the proven best options in the future for you to buy from them vs online.
@Zero Friction Cycling thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
Thoroughly enjoy your content
I love how you handled the unnecessarily pedantic keyboard warriors at the beginning. You don't need to defend your business name.
Have you ever looked at the fluoridated waxes for down hill skiing.
not so much - i believe they are being phased out / are phased out from skiiing now anyway due to enviro impact?
Any supplier of something similar to Cyclowaxs Hot chain wax heater?
Those heaters are literally those for melting hair removal wax pellets. Amazon super cheap, but imo they are not big enough, and you are better off with a crockpot.
Having just ridden the Dirty Mudgee in hours of rain and filth, my chain was stripped bare of wax and grinding metal after about 2 hours. However, even though it felt and sounded terrible, no obvious signs of wear. (MSW on near new SRAM XX1 gold chain, still reads 0.0 on KMC digital chain checker)
Seriously how wet was the Mudgee weekend!?!? Just glad the Sunday cleared up
It was raining, cold and muddy all day, but a great event, we had a great time. 😊 I’ve got a rough video on my very amateurish channel.😂
Great to hear re the wear -but as the xx1 chains are so wear durable (srams hard chrome treatment is just way industry leading in that regard), it is hard to know if the zero wear is due to msw still hanging on deep inside chain where it is really needed or if it is largely due to the incredible wear resistance of xx1 chains.
i will be covering in the going long video (slides nearly done!) - with wax chains abrasive stuff penetrates to sides of rollers and inner link plates and inner link to outer link plates first, and is able to abrade the wax off those surfaces - and so depending on conditions, chain will start to make some noise in greater chain line angle gears as those parts start to load up and now dont really have any lubrication. So when it starts getting like that, losses for wax in straighter chain line angles will still be impressively low, but there will be growing penalty the more pedalling load is shifted to side load parts of the chain where the lube has been scrubbed off. It takes good bit longer for this to happen on main load parts such as pin to inner plate link bore, and inner plate link shoulders to roller bore.
What it will do if you have a bunch of rides like that is create more measurable lateral wear / lateral flex in the chain as those surfaces are copping it a bit more than normal in those conditions.
It can be a weigh up - ie for X time the wax would be faster, but then once it is making a racket - there is going to high losses in larger cogs, vs say a clingy wet lube that sure it will still be there, but it will have a lot of abrasive stuff now part of it so it might not be squeaking - but whats running as lubricant is more akin to a grinding paste or lapping compound. There are times when that option (ie a long wet event) may be better overall vs a wax chain if the wax done with hours to go.
The less one pedals in a high chain line angle in such conditions, the longer it will take to abrade the wax off the side load parts - so sometimes (if one has the ability) - running chain ring size that would keep one from needing to riding a lot of the climbing in largest / second largest cog. Overall the straighter (even if not straight, low chain line angles keep very low load on side load parts) chain line even at same power - the chain will go much longer before starting to squeak from wax being abraded off sides of roller etc. As riding in such conditions is typically slower - sometimes dropping a ring size (need the right chain length) can help. this of course may often only be a practical option for pro's who more readily have access to multiple rings / chains - but - thought i would mention in case you have a long wet key event in future - if you can spend 50% more time in a 32 ring and 2nd largest cog of 42, vs that time in a 34 to largest 50 or 52t cog - you can greatly extend the time till squeaking in some conditions.
That’s great info. I’m beginning to collect spare chainrings and other bits and pieces, so swapping them out for the conditions of whatever event I’m riding should be easy. Also, I did splash out on the gold XX1 just because it’s pretty, so it’s nice to know it’s more than just that. Thanks heaps!
Can you test standard cheap parrafin wax?
Im trying - i am part way through testing cheap candle wax - i will try to update on data where im at - i had to pull that test to urgently get some tests done for some mfg pre TDF, and will get that back on to complete when i can, and also i have gulf canning wax on hand to try to test when i can get a spot. just note that immersive waxing is only a part of zfc product recommendation, and that DIY waxing is a very small (but very vocal) subset of this demographic, and that no matter what i test, the emails and requests to test a gazillion other wax things like bees wax / lanolin / carnuaba / blend of including X / Y / Z additives etc will still be coming in, and that testing to curiosity for DIY waxing - when we already know that one will a great result if use a lab or food grade paraffin - the priority level for this testing is extremely low vs other testing. i am trying to get to it but yeah..... :)
Did two rain races with Flowerpower and both times chain no lube at the end.
how long were they? how wet? (road or offroad?) - Try smoove next time if using drip
@@zerofrictioncycling992 first and second race very wet road races, so let say full hour in rain/wet. Thanks, will try Smoove for sure, just what you said about cleaning is putting me off. To be honest because of your videos/website thinking to try immersive waxing. Just after watching it not sure if they will be able to last hour rain. All so confusing.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Why Smoove vs. Flowerpower? Smoove seems to not penetrate as well and has more block by block wear in wet? Maybe because it doesn't penetrate well, and sits more on outside of chain it keeps water out a little better?
@@MrVizzle msw / hot melt are generally good for at least 2 hours heavy rain for road. I would have expected flower power to last an hour ok, but again things can vary a bit. Yes smoove is a great option for an event, but definitely its a full reset after, and vs immersive waxing, that reset is a going to be more work (both the clean + the application to negate penetration issues as best you can - i would do immersive smoove if i was me)
@@damienbradley9209 Mostly some other testing (not yet public) has shown smoove to be pretty impressive re lifespan overall. My test in those blocks is an indication, but there are re lube points across the block so it is not testing it for outright treatment longevity - rather it is a mix of how much contamination is building up across the block and causing wear over time.
The penetration issues is definitely a pain - i will be covering in my upcoming going long vid that if i was using smoove, i would get a 500ml screw top container and apply via immersive - then you are rocking. Smooves block 1 wear rate drops from 19% to 4% when applied immersive vs drip on as per their instructions, and even the best technique could only get down to around 12% via drip application. But if its immersive, it really is a very good wax lube - for an event - taking into account post event its a tougher clean, plus penetration post clean.
durianrider doesn't ride durians, he IS a durian.
Maybe the set time is endlessly long on Rock 'n roll Extreme, it's like water, maybe why it washes off in minutes if it gets wet, but that lube seemed to be hopeless, I'm not going to wait days for it to work.
The lube smells like spirit. So probably has alcohol in it.
here's a quote from the EU shop ''Get the chain really wet, this stuff cleans and lubes all in one.''
This lube seems like mostly water and alcohol, with some lube in it.
From my own experience in the short term a wax chain in the wet is fine. For example getting caught out in the rain or a puddle. That being said you need to dry the chain out and retreat after the ride. If you don't the chain will wear out.
Admittedly I haven't tested every single wax formula out there.
@@gethinap wax drip (which one) or immersive wax (which one?)
I don't mind rewaxing my chain after wet rides (even though I live in a rather rainy place), but how do you guys afford the bunch of quick links you need? I reuse them about 3 times now. So in a rainy week I need about two quick link pairs...
Hey jasper - ybn qrs links are popular as depending on where you are located, cost for a pack of 6 is quite good and they are 5x re useable - so you get 30 re waxes a pack - however for your situation i would for sure look at a wippermann connex link - you can take that on and off unlimited times for the life of the chain. For my gravel / cx bike for training i have generally used wippermann as i often need to re wax every ride or two due to conditions - it being a bike to gravitate too in wet riding vs road. 11spd connex links are pretty expensive, but when using multiple times a week, that cost will pay for itself in short order and then you are well ahead after that.
@zerofrictioncycling992
Thanks a lot for the suggestion! I ordered a Wippermann Connex link. Let's see.
The lubes and waxes you have tested right now seem to be petty heavily filtered by what‘s readily available on the Aussie market. Do you plan to expand that list and also include options that are more common on other markets or are you interested in getting samples of those?
Hmm not really - quite a number products tested pretty much had no importer into australia at all, and so were not easily obtained - ie mspeedwax - i have had to bring that in to aus, Tru tension tungsten all weather - i initially had to bring that in and only recently have FE sports become their importer (im a terrible importer as i dont have any resources to try to get the products out into aussie bike stores / online stores), effetto mariposa also a very small presence, Rex - I am currently bringing that in until they find a proper importer for aus - Silca is very international, Ceramic speed is very international, smoove is very international, as is squirt, and many other products tested like muc offs, finish line, boeshield etc etc . Revolubes is mostly europe again i have had to bring that in to aus currently as they have no importer, Session components is brazil and no real presence here at all, NFS is mostly usa no real presence here at all, grax is mostly usa very low presence here - having a flick down the list i am sorry i cant see much evidence to support your case!
Over the last pretty much 3 years the majority of the testing done has been private testing booked by manufacturers, with the data being open to the public if they agree at the end of test to allow the data to be public, so there are quite a number of tests completed where the data is private. The tests i have managed to get in for my own curiosity have been driven mostly by checking some that have made the biggest boldest claims and that hold particular interest - ie muc off Ludicrous AF, Wolf Tooths WT -1 (again that one mostly US led), Prestacycle one (USA), testing a couple ceramic lubricants (Muc off c3 dry - very international , finish line ceramic wet - USA dominant but heavy presence in aus as well) etc.
Am currently testing Silca Hot wax X, Ceramic Speeds new wet conditions wax lube, as well as i have two private tests on the go (one immersive wax, another a wax drip). Overall outside of booked testing i am trying to test products that will help the overall knowledge base re performance of various lubricant types, as well as putting products making boldest claims to the test - i havent really worried too much about geography. If a product tests amazing but is not yet readily available in a market, it is really up to that manufacturer to get themselves into that market - they need to get themselves set up with an importer and get that market happening - ZFC job is to determine what are the best and worst products in the world, global market issues are for the product makers themselves to solve.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the comprehensive answer. I missed the part with the test being ordered by the manufacturers in the plethora of information. I guess my old school brain still misses the cycling magazine type tests in this new world. What I missed was mainly Dynamic and Morgan Blue as two very common brands in Europe which are also used in the world tour. The others I missed might only be a thing in the German speaking world and irrelevant in most parts of the world.
@@chrisridesbicycles yes sorry i do have an issue of overloading the info and stuff is easily lost! morgan blue i have on my list to try to get to, and yeah hopefully can work things out with dynamic for new sample to re test.
Magazine tests will be pretty rare - to set up a viable test that will be accurate enough for them to glean some tangible comparative info is just far to much investment these days - magazines can barely afford good journalists, and so what they can afford every minute of that journo's time is critical re getting content out. The time involved in something like that is a journo out for a long stint to put together.
As such typically now most mags doing the round of features on chain lubrication / maintenance will typically send off a bunch of tech questions to a ZFC or josh poertner or a jason smith or others that may be qualified in their country and put together an article from that. Some of those can still be very comprehensive - ie i rememeber a few of the articles i worked with Dave rome of previously cycling tips, now escape collective - they were very in depth indeed.
Stay tuned - some tests / updates will take awhile to get to as we are just very busy being really the only real choice in this space at the moment for a lot of mfg's - but every spare mo i am chipping away at testing and data and modelling updates and document info updates open for all.
7:40 in the field "real in situ" test methods . The only relevant way to many consumers .
love what you do but please a graph, I will die before the end
Don't engage the nonsense, social media is a rabbit hole of it.
And for the wet riding, I'm one of those fools that will do a 4+ hour ride in rain, nothing lasts and I just accept that it's part of riding in the rain. I come home and hose the bike off, spin the chain through a rag, let bike dry while I shower and eat, then just reapply drip wax of choice. It's a balance and not perfect, but has to work with life for me. And no, I don't use a beater bike in the rain, I ride whatever I grab that day.
I have a bike with an SRAM 12 speed AXS flat top chain, SRAM says not to re-use the quick link does anyone have any experience with that? I tried re-using a KMC shimano compatible 12 speed quick link on another bike and that was such a great success unfortunately with the link snapping open. I really wouldn't like that to happen whilst riding my road bike though....
Sram axs flat top chain is a much thinner chain than kmc / shimano / ybn - you cannot use those links, there would have been a lot of lateral play between chain and those links likely causing failure. You have to be using the same standard components. Sram axs flat top is a completely different standard than other 12spd (internally thinner, externally thinnner, and with oversize rollers). If you have a flat top chain, you must use srams links for that chain.
It is a bit of a trap as for every other chain as long as you are using the correct speed link, you are fine. Ie if you had sram eagle 12s chain and used a kmc link - perfect. Alas flat top 12s is not like this.
zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Master-Link-FAQ-Guide.pdf
Page 8 on re using links (once you have the correct ones).
@@zerofrictioncycling992 it was a 12 speed XT bike with a 12 speed shimano compatible kmc chain not an sram als bike.
Anyway I decided to remove my chain an put on a freshly waxed (home made wax) chain. That felt so much better than the old chain to whuch i had been reapplying Squirr...
You seem to know a lot about chains. I shortened 1 sram axs flat top chain 2 links too short, you reckon that would be a problem or can I still use it?
@@arhu74 ah i see - perhaps it was not locked in on both sides of the link? master link failures are very very rare - but like chain failures - they happen. If installed correctly you would have just been super unlucky to have a very rare failure.
What do you mean by still use? do you mean after adding two links back in with master links next to each other or running too short? both have they own potential issues... master links should have some separation - if you can get a section of chain (try bike store) - ie they should have or be able to get from a soon to be built bike - a spare section of lets say 8 links of chain - then you could cut 6 links off yours, and install the 8 link section to get back to where you need and you have enough separation between master links for no concern there. THis is done a bit when people upgrade to an OSPW system etc and need 4 or 6 more links longer chain and existing chain is near new and a shame to throw away etc.
Running too short - it can be done but it is a risk if you forget and shift into largest cog whilst on big ring etc. if you mech is stretched too much this places a lot of stress on hangers / mech / and will not run nicely at all. You may be able to set up gears such that you cannot shift into this combo and if you try it auto drops it to small ring etc
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I meant using the chain 2 links short (1 inner+ 1 outer) but I guess using a chain with 2 masterlinks is actually a good idea if the short chain gives me trouble shifting. Sram AXS doesn't allow cross chaining so I could try the short chain.. And if it doesn't work I actually have an 8 link bit of waxed sram flat top lying around...using a 5 euro masterlink is better than discarding a 35 euro chain
That failed reused kmc 12 speed master link failed 3 times, I don't think it was an install issue
Thank you :D
grit and going black(dry /wet lube) vs rust(wax). For the cost, get a new good brand, bottom of the range chain every month or two. It'll be cheaper
In some cases that is what people do - and can also be a good option - just note though that this is more likely to be a path that an intrepid winter rider on shimano 105 might do, it is less likely that a rider on axs red or dura ace goes down this path, and also even if chains replaced before 0.5% wear mark, if the lubricant is abrasive the rollers will still cause notable wear damage to cassette and ring teeth as they settle into position under load with a griding paste between them and the teeth. when those cassettes may cost up toe $700 aud and chain rings set maybe $1500 aud if Red power meter rings - following a path that is low friction for many is still the path they want to go down .
Wax does not = rust. All you have to do is wipe chain and apply a coating of wax lube. Ie if one gets home from a wet day, and post shower and food spends 30 secs to wipe chain and apply some tru tenstion tungsten all weather etc - sorted - and then they can re wax when they have a spare 4 minutes total labour time (1 min to remove chain and put into wax pot, 30 secs whenever later to swish and hang to set, 2 mins pre next ride to break wax bond and re install chain - thats 3.5 mins - 30 secs buffer for a total 4 mins labour time. What does it take one to solvent flush clean a chain & re lube?)
He needs to create a tire testing machine! I think the market is to the point where a gp5000 has competition. I'd be curious to know. The tire review guy on youtube only does car tires 😢
nah that is covered - jarno at bicycle rolling resistance does a brilliant job - i should highlight this quickly on a vid as it is very valuable info - his testing is used and referenced by most of the cycling world!
www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/
About the name, a tree word name is very good and a fictional theme is brilliant for the wise guys like me. For the mass market, try a second brand like "serious lubing". With hot moms in the logo of course.
About the set time after wet rewaxing, just use two chains and have one of them ready when the other sets.
I have been using Molten speed wax with Trutension all weather tungsten Drip inbetween rewaxing... is it ok to just go back in the pot or do i need to strip it before rewaxing ?
Hey alistair yes TTAW is fine to just re wax - that is a popular option to use with msw / hot melt especially for some wet weather work as it does pretty well for a time in the wet
I have seen some UA-camrs play down certain tests because they are not the 'real world'. This is then repeated blindly by some of their followers. Of course all models are wrong but some are useful, which I think is the case here. If you test chain A vs Chain B enough times and the results of A being more efficient are repeated & corrolate with others findings the odds of the findings being by chance diminishes.
There is a bit of testing out there but most are not very representative of what may occur in the real world - again whilst zfc test isnt perfect - it is currently really the closest as it is over thousands of kms and controlling key variables such as load, what contamination and when, introduced the same way, the same amount etc - so we can get a much more accurate A vs B lubricant comparison much more quickly, that would take an enormous amount of field testing to attain a much more ball park result. Good field testing can be done (and is done) but as the chain works so hard, small variables such as X amount more contamination was introduced early prior to a high power ride / interval session, vs other with lesser contamination and easier session etc etc - all the big variables of what load and when vs what contamination and when vs when re lubing / maintenance - it takes a lot of effort and time to get sufficient field test data to compete one lubricant vs another across a range of conditions. This is why major manufacturers - even ones that possess extremely precise outright efficiency testing such as silca and ceramic speed still use ZFC testing (and also it would takes anyone looking to do similar testing an age to build up league table of lubricants through the exact same protocol for benchmark comparison).
In my early days of cycling i used RNR gold - across 9 chains over a few years they hit 0.5% between 4000 and 6500km, which is a 62.5% variance. That is kinda what you are looking at with field testing just as is, it can be tightened a lot, but still very ball park vs ZFC test which is +/- 5%.
@Zero Friction Cycling that's the thing models are far more repeatable while the noise of the more complex real world makes it much harder to remove all the other variables - usually you need a lot of data points. My point is some people get hooked on models being wrong and ignore the fact they are still very useful. Your excellent info is NOT a weird outlier, it corrolates to others findings (e.g. the Dura-ace 11spd chain results, etc), which suggests your methodology is effective - given the numbers /kms of testing you have run imagine the odds of just happening on the dura-ace chain results by chance - if you were that lucky watch out bookies on Melbourne cup day! The simplification of models is exactly their chief benefit, particularly when their findings can have some verification in the real world. The velodrome is not the conditions you find on the road but Dan Binghams track refined position is still rather quick on the road. The tweaks to my TT position from the velodrome still correlated with quicker times from no extra watts in the more chaotic wind conditions outside.
@@morrisizing Yes absolutely correct - in my ramblings i didnt clarify well re the power of the benchmarking that using a robust control test brings. Ie if in wet block 4 - Lubricant X is half the wear of Lubricant Y - whilst wet block 4 itself may not be representative of what rider A may doing - if he is riding in wet conditions - then it is still highly likely that Lubricant X will be more beneficial for him than lubricant Y, and same re dry contamination block etc etc. The lubricants have been pitted against each other at same load, same contamination amount and type, introduced at the same time etc - the bench mark testing allows for one test of a lubricant to be done and we can compare its performance to many key competitors that have seen the exact same test. To try to get any remotely comparable information from field testing takes an enormous amount of time and resources across a lot of chains from multiple athletes to still attain a much more ballpark comparison as literally NONE of the key variables are controlled (what load & when, what contamination - amount, type and introdused when, re lubed when etc etc).
If one had a medical study presented, where literally zero key variables were controlled, it would be difficult to much great data from the study, and it would not be accepted as valid by many. That is pretty much what we have with field testing - except with some good effort and protocol, over time - some good information can be obtained - it just a whole lot easier and cheaper to use ZFC :))
43:27 doggo
no way does this need to be an hour long
Yeah, my Silverback came without any gorilla.
I think you should try to make shorter 10-15 min videos that are targeted ti one or two topics.
I agree completely! I keep planning to try that but then topics keep running away with me, i am going to for realz try just one topic under 20 mins before the going long video (very long events / multi day) which will be a long one again as a lot to go over. Then back to a short one is the plan.....so....my loose plan going forwards is short / long / short / long - and maybe i can try medium here and there....
hahahah, LOL, love the MOTO comments....(Master Of the Obvious) always a "check out my big brain " person out there.
I’m still shocked by Venereal Durianrider’s recent attack.
Ah that just means you didnt know about him! i certainly am not, and it will be going on for a long long time (it will pause a bit, swing back when he thinks he has thought of a clever new lie he can put out there). Dont worry people like him in the longer run they always reap what the sow, that has already been steadily happening for him.
Harley’s still pushing this “racist towards Hambini” nonsense 😡
@@mrichards55 ha yes it would be unlike him to let go of making up malicious crap about someone. I have faith hambini, being a very intelligent chap, doesnt need me to explain that what harley is and does.
TRUE or FALSE? excess dry lube on the outside of the chain does not help your chain and only potentially collects dirt
What do you mean by excess dry lube? Many "dry" lubricants are not actually very dry at all. If the chain is truly dry on the outside, little dust will stick - airborne dust will only stick due to static elec from chain whizzing through the air, same level as dust might stick to your frame etc. What then on the outside, again if it is dry - it does not have a pathway to get from outside to inside the chain where it will cause wear. Most cases the only way it does that is being dragged in on re lube (not much of an issue for road, but dry dust offroad riding one should alcohol wipe chain before re lube to remove surface dust and prevent the above).
If the chain is not dry because one is using a wet lube or a claimed dry lube that isnt really dry - then all particles of dust that come into contact will stick. The more wet it is, the easier the path it has to move from outside to inside. Wet lube chains become very abrasive very quickly in dust conditions etc.
The answer should be FALSE - if the lubricant is truly dry - excess on the outside wont attract more contamination, and whilst all the action is really happening on the inside - excess dry lubricant (like wax) on the outside doest not hurt - but too much may start to make things gunk up over time.
What if my meaning of dry lubes is only “dry” drip on lubes such as tru tension tungsten, squirt, flower power etc. Is there any point to have excess on the exterior of the chain?
@@vitalbikechains no - excess wet lube attracts contamination, excess wax lube will gunk up over time.
“Zero Friction” for me to get info on chain waxing - why and how.
or you can get a belt drive bike
can for sure be a good option for intrepid commuters. but for many riding recreationally or training- belt + hub gears - its never really held that appeal. it can be for sure more efficiency loss, which some may or may not notice, but there are other fun things that can come up. An interstate friend went belt drive for his commuter, and when he got a puncture, due to higher tension for belt drive - he wasnt able to fix. he is not very mechanically.... strong...... so this may not be an issue for many, but its just different, and can be more of a challenge for some - its just a bit more of a wrestle. And geared hubs are more fun re service or getting fixed if failure etc.
but for sure - for the right demographic of cycling and cyclist - belt drive is a belter.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 yes yes, totally with you. I would probably only go beltdrive on a commuter or an ebike. ride to work in the rain without a care in the world!
thank you for the thoughtful response :)
Sleep, water, sugar.
Yes, long winded, I am leaving before seeing the main point of what I think your video is about.
Thanks rick. Yes, you already put same / similar on other vids? clearly i am not the channel for you - there are so many other cycling content channels that will likely be more your fancy - you wont need to say the above on all of my vids - i got it :)
Disappointing (based on the video title). I was expecting some sort of test results showing how long it takes for immersive wax to lose its protective qualities when sprinkled with a controlled amount of water compared with, say, factory grease or some popular wet lubricants. Instead, it was an hour of mostly waffle.
Do you think if he did some sort of test, that it would help? Because his test may reflect one type of wet weather event, but nothing close to what is common for others - so who does that help?
Better to make the assumption that the rain & grit would have stripped any type of lube off. Now what? Now watch the video.
@@AdamOHalloran "Do you think if he did some sort of test, that it would help?" YES
"his test may reflect one type of wet weather event". I'm thinking of rain, what other wet weather event did you have in mind?
"Better to make the assumption that the rain & grit would have stripped any type of lube off." That's a poor assumption. Doesn't happen for a long time with factory grease. The key question is how quickly does that happen for immersive wax, compared with wet lubes.
@Infocus Learning, there are an awesome amount of variables to consider, but in general I would agree that if one is anticipating to be riding in rain for more than two hours, putting on a fresh chain with its factory grease before the ride would be the best approach. But for rides up to two hours, with an ordinary load of road grit, both immersive wax and wet lube will work, but the wax will be easier to clean and ‘reset’ afterwards. Beyond two hours, or in more challenging conditions, nothing currently available post-factory will keep intense wear from happening. If preventing wear is still a concern in such conditions, perhaps full extended fenders or carrying a spare pre-waxed chain might be options.
re the recommendation to remove the factory grease before waxing new chains. why on earth would you do this? surely doing so is a pointless and time consuming step based on the unquestioned assumption [myth] that grease is incompatible with wax, and harmful. the factory grease will surely just dissolve in the wax, and not be a problem. kerosene/paraffin is actually an excellent solvent for greases and oils, and that is in fact one of its main original uses. and even more so when heated to high temps. and some people recommend adding marine grease to their homebrew mixture anyway to give a measure of rust proofing. the grease from the chain will be amalgamated into the wax mixture and be a miniscule component of it. it could even be beneficial. i have just immersive waxed a new chain without removing the grease [first] and it looks perfectly fine. the wax has adhered to the metal very well. cleaning a new chain might be beneficial if its to remove any metal particles left from manufacture, but i cannot see the point if its to remove the grease.
So what you are saying is: I don’t care what you and everyone else says, I’m not cleaning the factory grease off.
Okay.
@@AdamOHalloran thats a straw man. i never said everyone. theres going to be many experienced chain waxers that agree with me because my reasoning is perfectly sound. so are you claiming that paraffin is not a solvent to grease, and indeed even more so when hot. that something else is a better solvent? i would argue that any experts that claim grease is not dissolved by hot paraffin need to think about it a bit more. my claim is not controversial in any way :)
I can't say for certain how it's going to work with immersion wax, but I can confirm that mixing is bad with all the drip waxes I've tried.
I currently use squirt on my dry weather bike. I initially cleaned off the factory grease, and have never cleaned the chain since. I just add a drop to each link once every week or two, wipe off the excess, and go. If I do get stuck in the rain, I'll wipe off the bulk of the water with a rag, and add more squirt when I get it home. It's been fine for about 5 years that way. Excess wax just flakes off while I ride, and while it's not spotlessly clean, it's pretty good, and seems to stay that way.
When I first tried it, I applied it over the factory grease, which did dissolve into the wax, making the wax stay softer and stickier. After a couple months, the chainrings, and all the gaps between the sprockets on my cassette were coated/plugged up with sticky black wax that felt almost like tar, and had to be scraped off, since common degreasers and mild solvents wouldn't even touch it.
I've also made the mistake of lubing with a wet lube once, on a chain that was lubed with boeshield (I got stuck in the rain on a long ride, and didn't want rust) That led to pretty much the same result. a couple more additions of boeshield, and I got black crap stuck to everything.
@@nwimpney i would clean the factory grease off if i was using a drip on wax. also, my above comment assumes a 50'50 ish mixture of white candle wax and liquid paraffin, as is traditional for home brew waxers. the paraffin / kerosene (whatever) will remove the grease no problem as its been used for generations for that very purpose by mechanics in garages. saying that, i reckon molten candle wax is a solvent too. mixing grease and wax isnt like trying to mix oil and water, like friction facts, oz cyclist et al seem to be saying lol
1:10, no, I don't give you license... how do you expect us to watch a 58 minute video if it has no chapters and the first minute is a useless rambling, non scripted stuttering mess.
please take it a a constructive criticism from a brutally direct person...
Ha thanks antonio - if that is you style and works for you (does it work for others). I do need to sort the chapters thing, it was working some vids ago, and then now not. Re the intro and the rest - i am simply unlikely to be the channel for you. I listen to a lot of pods and YT channels, some are highly structured and scripted, some are more conversational style - i prefer conversational style - and when i jump on in the short window i have to try to get a vid update out, to me it is just like i am having a chat to people. If you listen to a lot of content, you will find MANY that the initial minutes are a general chat intro on some things. Im not going to be able to change much, so alas - we will just be oil and water. I have channels i cant listen to as the hosts style just grinds me - it is perfectly expected i will be that for others. I hope you find plenty of other channels you enjoy.
Thanks!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 ah... my loss... :(
Anyone some info of the Dynamic slicks wax ?
Is it the same as the ufo drip? Or is this a different wax base lube.
Hey carlo- I have been contacted by team jumbo visma last year for testing, and have done some testing liaising results with TJVM and dynamic - the results are not where expected and as such it is being explored if the test bottles were possibly heat damaged in transit. We are in discussion re a new batch being sent for testing and then when i can find a test slot - i probably wont put the results up of the first tests at this stage until we know if there was an issue or not with the original bottles - but alas that leaves me unable to confirm or not if it is a top product as yeah the testing results thus far need further investigation. It has happened once before only where a test sample was way out, and then re test was rocking - but until this is known - the results are definitely needing investigation. The test was repeated 3 times, 2 of them immersive, with 3 different chains (final one even using a different brand incase an issue with that batch of ultegra chains), all three tests returned the exact same result - so we have had to pause for the moment until further samples & test spot.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 tnx for the replay
i use silca hmw and it works good ,
but my brother use the dynamic wax and in the dry it looks ok , but in the wet ? ist like there is no lube .
its a pitty you can't post the first results , but we have to wait to the new results .
@@broersporco Yes honestly i have no idea that and wet as the tests were stopped before we pushed on too deep into test until we work out what is going on.
BUT - again if one rides in the wet - the are two parts - part one is does it last that ride, and part 2 is how are you going to ensure you are back to low friction next ride, vs just dripping some more lube on top of a whole lot of abrasive stuff that is now inside the chain - so it is weighing up the maintenance paths post wet ride to next ride as well.
Officially dynamic recommend immersive application on a properly cleaned chain, and being wax - best to clean with a solvent that is designed for wax - one can use other stuff, but results will vary. So not saying its not a good option, just i hope he is thinking about part 2, not just part 1. And track wear. If the chain is wearing rapidly to 0.5%, then test a different option - if not immersive waxing then try smoove or flower power