They Don't Want Your Chain To Last This Long
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- Fed up with your chain wearing out? Want to know how to make your chain last longer? Alex speaks to Zero Friction Cycles, finding out the industry secrets and the best ways to maintain a clean and healthy chain.
00:00 Intro
02:48 What are the best bike chain lubricants?
11:00 What's the difference between types of bike chains?
16:28 Will narrower chains mean the chain wears faster?
23:00 Is a high-quality lubricant and chain worth the money?
26:26 Are there convenient ways to protect your bike chain?
34:27 What is the future for chains and chainrings?
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What are your top tips for chain maintenance? ⛓️
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What are your top tips for chain maintenance? ⛓️
Avoid your stiff flaky waxed chain and having to break it loose before your first ride by installing the chain straight onto the bike right out of the wax, then run it through all of the gears while the wax is still warm arnd soft. Saves a lot of mess and prevents that stuff clunky chain before the first ride.
Full emersion solvent bath and scrubs. Environmentalists be dammed. Nothing cleans like Kerosene and disc-brake cleaner with the assistance of a stiff bristle paint brush.
you sounds like ZFC who use an ungodly amount of toxic solvents and air miles just for cleaning and lubing a bicycle chain. We have duty for the next generations to leave this planet better than we found it. That is why I stick with squirt lube and basic cleaning. I get epic longevity out of my drive train. @@manitoublack
Buy a car 🤣🤣
Sorry for my bad humor 😁
Wipe the chain with a dry cloth after each long ride and and re-apply chain lubricant (e.g., Squirt). Wipe again to remove excess. I learned this from Lennard Zinn and don't use a mechanical chain cleaner with solvent more than once or twice a season.
One reason I moved to wax is that it actually makes drivetrain maintenance SO MUCH easier and faster on my road, gravel, and mountain bikes. Instead of having to clean a bunch of oil-soaked gritty gunk off the chain, rings, and cassette after 1-4 rides, I just wipe down the chain and either drip on a little Super Secret or re-dunk the chain in hot wax as necessary. Further, working on the bike without getting lube all over my hands is awesome. Prepping a new chain used to be the hardest part, but Silca has even made this super easy with their new products. Very simply, I love having a cleaner, faster, and lower-maintenance drivetrain--and it even saves me money. The naysayers are either ignorant or doing it wrong!
I second that, drive train maintenance and chain swapping is so much simpler as soon as you realize you can do it without rags without gloves, and you don't need to scrub your hands for 10 minutes after.
Id honestly continue waxing my chains even if it was slower just for that. The benefit of being able to work on the bike without getting covered in grease. The peace of mind that Im never again going to foul some pants or a couch with chain bite that I didn't notice in the shower after a ride, etc. The cleanliness of a waxed chain, is such a HUGE benefit that is rarely talked about.
how do you do your post ride bike clean? Do you take your chain off? Can the chain handle a bit of soapy water from the rest of the bike wash?
@@danielhand1729 I usually just do a quick wipe down with a cloth. But if it's been a really dirty day, I pop the chain off and do a proper wash with a hose and soap. If the chain is also really muddy, I will rinse it with water (no soap), and then dry it with a cloth before putting it back on and adding fresh Super Secret (or just pop on a spare freshly-waxed chain, and then throw the old chain into the wax pot after rinsing and wiping it).
@user-wl5es3gg3f right so if the rest of the bike needs a clean with soap you pop it off. how do you find the reusable quick links? reliable?
I do the same thing, the quick links last for a long time. Popping the chain on and off becomes such a non issue when there is no mess involved. @@danielhand1729
GCN, 40 minutes is pretty long for a video, but when you get a genuine subject matter expert like Adam, it is well worth it. 👍
PS. I could do without the click-baity title.
Nice to see GCN speaking to a real expert rather than pushing crappy Muc-Off products! Adam is doing good work.
Yea, the Muc-Off marketing/paid sponsorship was to the point I refused to watch.
Which brand is actually good for lubricants? The podcast was really interesting but they didn't talk about lubricant brands.
@@njsfer Check out Zero Friction Cycling for all of the data about different brands that you could ever ask for. Personally, I use Silca stuff.
@@njsferthe zfc website ahs charts that are updated regularly
(spoiler alert: muc off is mostly dead last)
SILCA SILCA or SILCA
"Intervention to reset contamination", tech speak for "cleaning". I love it.
well no, a "reset" goes a bit beyond "cleaning." with a reset you're basically replacing all of the contaminated lubricant with fresh uncontaminated lubricant, while with a cleaning you're just removing the contamination from the surface to prevent it from migrating to inside the rollers, any contamination already inside the rollers is still going to be there. so yes based on the strict definition of the word "clean" a reset does count as cleaning, he's using this specific wording to differentiate between those two conditions. if you want you can replace "reset" for "deep clean", however the word "reset" more accurately invokes the way somebody should think about it. the idea is to put the chain back to a like-new condition vs only giving the appearance of clean. **disclaimer: if you're using a wax lubricant and you're reusing the same batch of wax, the entire pot slowly becomes more and more contaminated with every reset, so there's a practical limit to how many resets you can do with the same batch before the amount of contaminant becomes counterproductive. he goes over all of this (at extreme length) on his own videos. the man is certainly passionate about this.
@@better.better That's a lot of words for "cleaning"
Cleaning would be too simple 😉
👍
Half the thumb came from the nickname😁
@@Chris-pt6hh ha yes - what is "cleaning"? for one person it is wiping with a cloth. for another its putting into an ultrasonic. for another it is spraying degreaser through chain, for yet another it is a clip on chain cleaner etc etc. Depending on how much crap the conditions have brought into chain and lubricant depends on what level one should consider to re set. I personally prefer "intervention" as it implies you have to do something - but doesnt pre bias towards what one may think in their head = "cleaning". But then again, as you can see, i have long answer or way to say everything :)
More podcast style videos like this please. Really helps me go through my 4 hour indoor Z2 rides. ❤
Just check out zero friction cycles channel, you'll have a year worth of long format "deep in the weeds" podcast style videos.
Glad we could help! Are you listening to show on the turbo? 👀
No one does 4 hour indoor rides
@@thiscocks I do and it’s on Strava.
I've followed the Oz Cycle process for several years (homemade paraffin/PTFE 10/1 in a small dedicated crock pot) . Current chain is at 9400 miles and still going. I re-wax at 200-300 miles, and use the same Shimano link through the life of the chain.
Oz Cycle channel is definitely worth a look. Lots of practical ways to save money on bike maintenance including making your own tools.
I used the Oz-instructions to mix my own hot-wax and drip on. The fact that they are DIY and aren't peddling any brands made me confident the whole wax thing is not just a marketing thing.
Btw: They adjusted their formula from 10:1 to 20:1 wax to PTFE.
"Current chain is at 9400 miles and still going." What does that mean? That it hasn't snapped? Most will want to know the wear data as would anyone hearing claims like how a $40 bottle of chain lube can "save" $500, as Mr. Fiction made here. I'm usually a skeptic about "Buy my expensive product and SAVE!" claims, but maybe that's just me?
Absolutely. But stop with the PTFE! That is environmental poison, and likely bad for humans as well. Just wax is 99% as good, it's also the cheapest part. Why spend more for the poison.
It means it's at 9400 miles and hasn't reached the .5 wear to replace as mentioned in the video. I do have the Park Tool adjustable checker versus the go/no-go guage, and it looks to be about .4 wear at the moment. I don't ride them until they break... Right now 1lb paraffin is about $5, $3-$8 for 1.6 Micron PTFE free shipping, and about $13 for the crock pot. That will last at least a couple of years for my several bikes.
Once your chain. casette and chainrings are worn and need replacing. What is the problem in keeping them? I ran a worn-out set for a year with no noticeable problems.
Love this content GNC. Adam is an absolute wizard at explaining this stuff 🙏
Alex seems to be gravitating to being the champion for value for those of us who don’t have unlimited budgets or have bikes given to them for free.
It’s almost like everyone tore him a new one for his video on motorcycle vs bike costs. 😂
Then get a few chains wax them, and rotate them as soon as they make noise. Take 15 seconds with a quick link to change out, and Im on more than 3k miles on one of the chains, and it's got basically no wear, and I ride in an incredibly harsh environment. A long waterfront beach bike path with lots sand, salty air, etc. A chain used to last me 1000 miles if i was lucky. Now, 3000 miles in, i can barely tell it from the newer chains.
Add in the fact that you can touch your chains and get nothing on your hands, and that you will never again foul anything with un noticed chain grease from your leg. Best decision I ever made to start waxing my chains.
Hahaha the champion of value has a good ring to it! 🤣... Lets just not mention that chainset 😉
I think that Dura-ace "value component" fiasco will never let him forget and now he's on a mission to right that proverbial "wrong" forevermore!
Cheers to Alex (and Adam) from Vancouver, Canada
*edit: sorry @gcntech I just did mention it.... 😉🤭
They’re trying to compete with better value bike podcasts
I was initially sceptical of waxing but i now love it. The best thing is never needing to degrease your whole drivetrain again or getting dirty fingers or clothes working on the bike. Its overall much easier.
Wow, this was extremely educational. Thanks for sharing the long version!
Hey Mike, That spot outside Uwajimaya where you are trying to nail that curved wall ride over the benches is RAD!!!!
I thought about doing that like 6 years ago. I'm just not that good at wall rides, can't bunny hop that high anymore, at 54 years old I don't have the balls anymore to hit it fast enough anymore.
I will now live vicariously through you now!
Thanks for being original and BAD ASS!
"We decided to present this in a podcast style" Translation: Adam talks so bloody much editing this would way to much effort. 😂😂
Or: youtube algorithm does now prefer long videos.
@@tobiasd2264they make way less money from UA-cam ads than they do from direct sponsors, that's why most UA-camrs prefer sponsorship videos. if GCN+ had been more popular that would have been much more of a win-win for both the viewers and for GCN, being directly supported, they wouldn't have needed ads nor sponsors and then they could TRULY do unbiased videos. when you have to rely on ads and brand sponsors, by default you also have to worry about losing their money if you say something they don't like. unfortunately for us viewers there's no way to know if the big heads behind GCN had any intention of going to sponsorless content, obviously to be the exclusive source for racing, that seems unlikely to have been the plan.
Looks like we've found the GCN editors burner account 👀
And cheers to Adam for it! I've learned so much from the guy.... but it's always a good idea to have a tea and a bowl of popcorn handy before you begin, because you just know it'll be lengthy lol
Great video as always. Thanks for all this useful information. Keep up the good work.
My brother got an Author mountain bike in the late 90-s. It had one chain and one cassette for circa 10000 kilometers, many of which offroad, with little maintenance. After 15 years everything still worked well. I want these times back.
Since buying a ultra sonic cleaner my chain and gearing has improved the running and wear as it is deeped cleaned has saved me money
Ultrasonic cleaning, please tell me you are also waxing with that amount of effort. That is way more effort than waxing. I use an ultrasonic on some things, but that is basically a strip and re-lube.
Deep cleaning and saving money... music to our ears! 🙌 Are you waxing too then?
It's been very gratifying that this conversation reinforces the chain wear IS also cassette wear.
Great to hear you enjoyed it! Are you the sort of rider that stays on top of their chain wear?
yes you can extend cassette life, by teeth reshape, but they two are closed in mind box,
Thanks for sharing this content. I e been waxing my MTB chain for a couple of years now and even with harsh conditions I get 2-3 thousand miles out of my chain before replacing it and I’ve had the same cassette and chain ring for 3 years. The extra time to apply wax is worth it!
I genially like long format videos, it's good to going deep on the subject in one go, thanks for all the info in this one!
We love them too! We're keen to do more long videos too, any subjects you would like us to delve into?
Marcel, you are right ,no panic here in the UK. Do Not Age maybe throwing bundles about after the study into Niacin revealed possible heart issues. I'm awaiting more info re the study and in the meantime I have stopped taking NMN. 10 days now and I feel the same as I did before when supplementing with 1g a day. I was having a pulsing in the right side of my head which has now gone away . Maybe that was the NMN working ! Your recent vid with Dr She done nothing to quell my concerns. Great content as usual Marcel 👍🏻
I have 3 chains, wax them all together, then switch them out every 250 miles, 15 minutes once every month, to have waxed chains, and the biggest benefit they don't talk about. You can touch the chain, and it's clean, your hands will be clean, anything that touches the chain will be clean, no more grease marks, no more worry about how do i transport the bike without fouling something with chain grease, because ive definitely fouled more money worth of stuff with chain grease on accident than I have spent on chain and chain wear,. Never again though. My chain is clean, and leaves no marks on anything it touches. One of my chains Im on 3k miles, of hard beach riding at 250 watts and I don't imagine it will be done anytime soon.
If they marketed waxing as no more worrying about getting chain grease on expensive things, people would eat it up. That its faster is just an added benefit.
Im at this point convinced that if you rotate out waxed chains frequently, they will never wear out. One of my chains has outlasted a set of tires. I just swap to the next chain after the first ride it makes noise. Takes 20 seconds with quick links.
Also, waxing 3 chains at a time takes no more effort than waxing one chain.
I have been waxing chains on all my bikes for a couple of years. It is amazing. It is simple and fast and keeps getting easier to do. Silca Strip Chip is a true revolutionary product. You save 10x the money using wax without the cost of wearing out chains and gears. Plus it is clean. No more greasy grimy hands working on bikes.
I agree, I just got the kit. I will run at least two high end chain and just rotate. What, it takes 5 min for klutz like me to swap a chain? To save $800 for drive train and chains? Beyond no brainer. Plus the waxed chain just runs so quiet and smooth!
Not just hands, the number of times ive gotten chain bite on the leg i didn't realize and greased couches or clothes, is more than i care to admit. But it's literally not an issue with a waxed chain, they are so clean people wont believe it if they haven't run one.
You can take a chain with 250 miles on it, put the bike on a stand, take a rag, and run the chain through it like you would to clean a normal chain, and not get much more than the surface dust from your last ride. I cant emphasize enough how much cleaner they are.
do you ride in the wet?
Tell us how you "save $800 for drive train and chains" vs how much you spent on the entire wax-cult ensemble. And then present data on how another lube method would have compared.I've yet to read any objective evaluations of the wax vs oil from anyone not involved in selling something. @@stephendenagy3396
@GCNTech
I have used low-temp dripon wax this winter (N Sweden, so real winter).
I got a lot of rust on the outside of the chain, no matter what I did, so put on some wet lube now when the snow is thawing.
It was perfectly fine with wax when we had -5 to -38C. But i had to take the bike into the garage, wait a few hours for it to get warm (+5C) and apply the dripon and then let it dry overnight.
Great interview, this sort of content really inspires me to take good care of my bike, within personal budgetary constrains of course.
I'd caution against the optimism though, running and carbon-plated shoes in particular are a good example of faster and more advanced tech being so advanced at the expense of longevity.
Anyway, I look forward to waxing my next chain (not sure if I have the courage to do it myself yet, as a newcomer to the sport, or will have a bike shop do it instead) and hopefully also see some more insightful videos like this one!
We're sure that you will be able to wax the chain yourself, Ollie makes it nice and simple in this video 👉ua-cam.com/video/pu2cdw76eUE/v-deo.html
Incredibly valuable information, thanks for this interview with an expert!
Interesting video. Thanks for bringing him on
No worries! It's not the first time Adam has been on the channel 👉 ua-cam.com/video/pu2cdw76eUE/v-deo.html
Not editing ZFC is a bold move - "brevity" is Adam's middle name
Thank you - that was amazing. I watched your shorter version as well and have learned loads.
Out of interest - which one did you prefer?
@@gcntechI preferred this longer one. Good questions, interesting guest and room to explore the topic
I tested the water by switching from wet oil lubes to a drip on wax lube (Squirt) and found my chains lasted much longer and were much cleaner. After investing in a cheap / basic slow cooker and an old spoke, I've now upgraded to full immersive waxing. Waxing is no more time consuming than oiling, it's just a different method of lubing your chain and one that extends the life of your drivetrain, saves you money and something that wasn't mentioned in the chat with ZFC, your drivetrain is so much cleaner, after working on it, a quick wash with soap and water and you're good to go.
So much focus is on the speed, when to sell it to people all they have to say is you can take off your chain, put on a new one with your bare hands, and not have to wash them after. Literally handling a factory new chain that isn't waxed as messier than handling a waxed chain with 500 miles on it.
"Waxing is no more time consuming than oiling, it's just a different method of lubing your chain"
Right! You just have to a) remove it b) clean it c) cook it in wax d) repeat vs doing nothing but dripping some oil on it when it looks dry and wiping the grime off now and then. Perhaps you use a different way to measure time consumption but waxing involves a LOT of time and equipment...all to extend the life of a $50 consumable part.
But the PT Barnums who market stuff to the chain-wax cult know their marks...er, customers. The money's in the consumable stuff, the bags o'wax, the bottles of drip wax, etc. vs a bottle of chain oil that lasts a long, long time. I don't know how they get away with claims of saving money..seems like SPENDING money IMHO.
You should try it before you knock it. It's worth it to me just for how clean your chain is. I can handle my chain with bare hands and never worry they will get greasy. Drop a chain on a ride? No problem, my hands will be just as clean as they were before after i put it back on. It also really makes the whole chain maintenance things much easier when its not such a dirty greasy process. Once you realize that you can wax a batch of chains in the time that it takes you to give your bike a good clean, its really just becomes part of the process.@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786
Waxing does NOT involve a lot of time and I'd hardly call one slow cooker / crock pot a lot of equipment. Waxing not only extends the life of your chain but also your cassette and chain rings.@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 Have you tried? plus it's a $50 consumable part running over and wearing down hundreds of dollars worth of cassette and chainrings too.. and literally takes less than 10 minutes to pop off and chuck into the cooker, come back an hour later, drip dry and back on the bike. Wayyy quicker than dripping wet lube on top of the sand and crap that's stuck to a wet chain.
Brilliant! More interviews with experts on various subjects please!
Any other experts and topics we should cover? 👀
More of this content style, please! This is what I like. Conversational pieces are more engaging and something I prefer. The quick cuts and flashy style is just kinda overkill, IMO. I prefer when GCN gets more REAL like this. You guys make good content and I do just appreciate this style, and it has to be a bit easier to produce, too. Win/Win/Win
We love creating a range of content for every cycling fan, super cool to hear that you are enjoying this long form content! Are there any other topics that you would like us to cover?
Excellent discussion. As someone who puts a lot of miles on a trainer, I would like to know the wear difference you will see on a chain. Two key factors are a cleaner environment, heavier average load as you push your limits in training.
I began waxing in the early ‘90s. People thought that I was strange! I would wax 5 chains at a time. Easy!
Yup, me too. People act like it’s some new thing, but that’s just because the internet has propagated the idea.
The old school method I was taught was a brick of canning paraffin mixed with ~10-25% motor oil melted in a double boiler (I used a smaller coffee can inside a large coffee can) over a camping stove.
I still do a variation of this and it works great.
This was a fantastic interview for people that geek out on mechanics. I vote for more of stuff like this. I have multiple chains in rotation, so I always have a fresh waxed chain ready to roll when it's time to rewax
Same, I am running 3 chains, swap them the ride they make noise, takes 15 seconds with a quick link, and since they are waxed, no mess at all, so that part is out of your mind.
One chain in my rotation is on 3k miles of beach riding, and I can BARELY tell it from the newer chains.
Im convinced a waxed chain if swapped out when it starts to make noise will last longer than a set of tires.
@shawnington I have 3 chains between 2 bikes that have the same drivetrain setup, it's worked perfectly.
Geeking out on mechanics is our safe place 🙌 Super cool to hear you are getting organised with you chain wear! Have you always been like that?
@@gcntech I started doing this about 5 years ago when I started waxing my chains as it just made it more convenient. the quick links help make it a lot easier as well.
Alex has stepped up his game in recent vids.
you mean Lars ?
@@cb6866 No he means Dave.
@@chris1275cc ah. Gosh darn this CTE
Outstanding moniker , sir !
No - he's getting worse every week.
More content like this! Amazing info..
We'll see what we can do 🙌 Any other tops you would like us to cover?
GCN, I really appreciate the long-format content. 👍
Would have been good to ask Adam about rust and joining links, but even though I follow zero, that was a good interview Geoff
Thanks for keeping the whole interview, much appreciated, like to see more 'Full' interviews.
GCN, thought provoking discussion on chain maintenance and lubricant. Albeit one important omission was made in regard to money saved by performing appropriate maintenance and lubrication. Medical bills, time away from work, trip cancellations , etc. secondary to injuries sustained from a dropped chain during an aggressive acceleration. I can personally attest to over $10,000 in medical bills and missing out on a bucket list trip to Europe to cycle across the Pyrenees mountains last fall (pun intended) secondary to a punctured lung, rib fractures, shoulder fractures, circumferential labral tear, ego bruising that could’ve been avoided by proper chain maintenance and lubrication. Spend $60 to save $500? Quite the underestimation! love the content as always. Cheers, RPW
so sorry to hear of that incident ryan! hope all healed now! And yes alas there isnt the conclusive data yet - i wish there was. It would be great to know that say by 1% wear chain is X % tensile strength weaker, and / or due to lateral wear X % more likely to have a chain drop etc - but we just dont have that. Suffice to say it will increase as the chain wears, and for sure a very worn chain will be more likely to snap or jump off vs a good condition chain. It is something we hope to learn more about in future, but you are right, broadly speaking - that should have been mentioned as well as it is a reality, and if the worst outcome from that does eventuate - its a rough time :(
Sounds like you're in the usa, where even medicine is a business.
Interesting video. You should make all your videos podcast style! I like listening to the podcast during my commute.
We would love to do more podcast content - Have you listened to the GCN show in podcast form?
Thanks Alex , Adam , and crew. I have been asking about chain quality forever , finally !! Waxer here !
Glad we could help out! Did you learn anything from this video?
@@gcntech I did ! Thank you firvthztv
For that
I always a wet petroleum based lube. This is because I always do a full solvent bath wash of the chain each time I service my bike.
Chain stays visually clean for ~300-400kms, with a service life of up to 800kms.
Wax, dry and 'eco' lubes are a pain to completely wash off and clean out. Basic petroleum lubes clean off with organic solvents really well, leaving the chain spotless clean.
Chain rings and cassette are also solvent bathed and scrubbed. Had the same Titanium record 10s and Super Record cassettes with the same chains now for over 5, years and + 10k KMs each (on different bikes.) Key to this is using the correct amount of lube. Here it's a case of less is more. After the lube is applied on the bench (1 very small drop per link, chain off the bike.) Then run the chain through your fingers to work the lube through a few times. Then dry the chain with a lint free rag. Really dry it. I then like to hang it for a while while I clean/service the rest of the bike. Allows an volatiles to flash off. Give it 1 more wipe before reinstallation.
It's an effort to clean, but after all this time, everything still looks and rides brand new. Even the softer Ti cogs.
Maybe watch the video?
Awesome vid!
Funny enough I always viewed this and never listened😂, I lube randomly, powerwash trice a year, ride beween 5000 - 10.000 k MTB and gravel and change about 0.6 chains a year. All these videos are marketing for stuff that does not help. I run AXS and XTR. My benefit - I donot care about a clean bike - but for a good ride! Love the ride, do not waste time🤙
I have never changed chain for the last 25 years, this information is fascinating.
I have a solid cheap chain lube and quick degreasing process! Buy a decent fully synthetic 2-stroke engine oil and fill one of your old chain lube bottles that you probably payed the same price for as the 1 liter of 2-stroke oil! To degrease, a quick spray with GT85, leave it 2 minutes then jet wash off. I'm getting amazing results with this and saving time and money! I use Castrol Power 1 Racing and in the wet the water beads off the chain and cassette and remains almost completely silent!
hi, thanks for the comment, that is certainly a method we've not heard of before! How long does it last? thanks!
Pretty sure a lot of wet lubes are just 2 stroke oil with a bit of thinner added. It's good in the rain.
Best thing I ever did going over to immersive wax 18 months ago. Takes 15min every month to rewax chain and I never need to clean the drive chain/cassette/chain ring ever. Only need to quickly wash frame. Bicycle looks like new all the time.Barely any wear after 10k
Agreed, but I run 3 chains in rotation, swap them out when they make noise, rewax them together monthly. Im doing 600 miles a month though. But even if it wasn't faster, the cleanliness factor is more than worth it. Swapping out chains is such a non issue as soon as you realize you can do it with bare hands and not have to wash them after.
do you wait for it make noise on a ride, perhaps a big one and it's too late, or when you clean your bike?
@@danielhand1729 about every 400ks. Turn on slow cooker. Drop chain in. Come back an hour later when wax melted, then put back on bike. But yes. As chain starts to get noisy that's a good clue
Taking the view in chain width to the other side of the fence, a wide 1/8" mid tier track chain easily does 10.000km riding outdoors and using oil based lubes.
Since switching to a wax based drip lube that easily gets doubled.
So while I am eager to switch to immersive waxing on the next chain, because the drip wax is still a little bit sticky and still requires regular cleaning, I might have to replace the chain due to increasing my chainring size long before that one has worn out.
The wear rates reported by ZFC on immersive waxing would probably make chain wear just not be an issue anymore and top tier track chains viable for outdoor use.
If the volume/price equation improved and with development, then the belt drive/gear hub solution which might require some maintenance becomes the viable drive for bicycles with gearing covering climbing to high speed pedalling possible. For those who do ultra expedition type journies it seems to be the preferred item now. At this time they cannot rival the normal drivetrain in terms of speed and power but I am not sure if he said what the diff is and I did hear that they are working on improving the gear change mechanism including electronic gear changing.
Alex was wearing pro wrestler boots during a conversation about lubricants. That was oddly appropriate.
Is the extended lifespan of xo1 and xx1 chains also present in sram cassettes? I consider the 11-50 nx eagle with higherend components for the rest of the drivetrain, since they use the old freehub and the wheight is not an issue for me. Wish they did a 11-52 version for the same as the current once go for, since they are on the market for quite some time.
That was amazing! Please do more of such a content and educate people ❤💗🙏
I'm don't really see waxing in the immediate future.
I'd love to hear suggestions on dry lube or drip on wax recommendations.
Can you insert a link to the lube Matrix , I wasn't able to find it on their website. Thanks
I wonder what is Silca and Zero Friction thought on the rewaxing process, how to eliminate trapped dirt in the chain when dunk in the next wax bath? after 2-3, the wax will look black due to small contaminant from the chain.
My wife and I purchased a spare chain so we always have a fully waxed chain ready to go. Pair that with a wippermann link for tool less chain removal. The whole process is painless and fast.
Just the one chain between the both of you? ⛓
@@gcntech tandem riders?
Fantastic detail from Adam at Zero Friction Cycling - I’ve been waxing for the last 6 years and love it
This guy sucks, DIY chain waxing is just as good
As a general rule for me: Modern narrow chains never lasted for more then one year in my whole lifetime and only one of them got destroyed becouse of my own stupidity. They twist much too easily and i only care about not having any force on the padles as long as the gear isn't 100% in place and never let any stick or stone even touch it in the forest.... So i don't care for the chain maintenance as much as i did with 9x (driving much wilder and harder) where it was common for me to cycle more then two years and over 15k km before changing a worn out but still intact chain. My foldable Bike still has its original way over 20 years old 7x chain. Changed the tires twice inbetween becouse they were done. But its still not too long, still not worn out, still flexible, not a single chainlink is damaged or doesnt move properly.
So how much can i save? Nothing. I spend 30€ a year for a chain, 2,50€ every few years for oil and not a single 11x chain got worn out before something else broke.... normally it's one original bolt loosing the inner part of the chain. At 10/11x it was never ever my own (chain-)bolt, last time this happened was 9x. So maybe i can save money on the cassette or front chainrings... hmmm ... last one lasted over 50k km, never had to buy a new one before some part in my head wanted something new anyways... exept 9x, this was the system for me, where i should have changed the chain maybe one or two times more often so i could have saved maybe one or two cassettes and one set of chainrings in the front... but 9x was so chaep in the end, i got a XT "spiderarmcassette" for 30€... so what could i save?
Edit: some mistakes corrected, btw i'm a mountainbiker and biketraveller as well as a-to-b-everyday-biker. Feel free to correct my english.
I have Molten Speed wax which scores best with FF
I’d be interested to know what temperature they think the wax should be when the chain is submerged in it
Hi all can you please tell me if you can calculate, power watts etc , from your weight and a time you have done say on a 10 mile TT .
So 22:30 and weight of rider 69 kgs . Only asking because I rode TT’s in the 70’s on steel bikes and would like to know what sort of power i was putting out .
Many thanks love show keep them coming .
This guy does a great job of making things sound far more complex than it really is.
quite possibly. im working on it (well, not working on making things sound more complex...). but most cyclists WAY underestimate the challenge of keeping chain lubricant low friction, and thus low wear, and end up costing themselves a lot in both. I could just say that and then say trust me, or i could explain further since that is what most would have have watched for - understanding not just someone telling them X is bad, do y, trust me etc
Is it safe and compatible to use a newer 12 speed shimano chain, m8100, on my older 10 speed ultegra 6600 groupset setup?
Understanding Silca is one of GCN sponsors, is there a possibility to have a video test of the longest-wearing and best lubricants available?
For what it's worth: I got the Ekar and I changed my first chain this very day after 3000-3500 km. I should add that I tried but suck at cleaning the drive train consistently and thoroughly. (Thats why the new chain is waxed and I spent all morning un-mucking my cassette and chainring.)
What’s going on with “dry lube” these days. Seems as though no one is talking about dry lubes anymore. As well as this video is, I was hoping for some insight behind the dry lubes. Anyway, great video!
Waxing is the new dry lube according to Ollie! But you are right, there doesn't seem to be much chatter about this much these days!
Does this mean GCN will be taking down all their contradicting videos on lubrication paid for by their partners throughout the years?
Everyone's got kids to feed at the end of the day.
... /... , to see if i understood: i have 7 cogs in the rear wheel , therefhore i can use an eight (8) speed chain on ❤it❤ ?? Am i right ??? Or it is a six (6) speed chain ( on a 7 cogs cassetes ).@@fedyno4reviews
Post scriptum: i beg your pardon for those innapropriated hearts in the middle of the sentence.
If you take GCNs word for choosing your gear in the first place you're bound to overpay for marketing wank
I have used low-temp dripon wax this winter (N Sweden, so real winter).
I got a lot of rust on the outside of the chain, no matter what I did, so put on som wet lube now when the snow is thawing.
It was perfectly fine with wax when we had -5 to -38C. But i had to take the bike into the garage, wait a few hours for it to get warm (+5C) and apply the dripon and then let it dry overnight.
My first chain and cassette lasted only 2500km, had no clue about maintenance. Stretch well over 1%, didn't spot it in time. Cassette was done for as well, new chain skipped liked crazy, couldn't even leave my own street. Second one I did 2000km + 2500km with 2 chains on one cassette. This was with wet lube. By this time, the chain rings were dead as well. Pointy like a shark, lost almost half the width of the teeth compared to the new one. Probably the first 2500km did most of the damage.
Then switched to drip-on wax and started rotating the chains every 1000km. The next set latest 12.000km for 2 chains, 1 cassette. Currently approaching the same distance on my current set; one chain is at 0.75% stretch. Cassette still looks fine, but difficult to tell. What do you reckon, can I run another chain (or 2) on this cassette? What about the chain rings that now did 24.000km, mostly on the big ring. I find this drive train maintenance / replacement thing quite difficult to judge still.
To complete the picture: I am not the most smooth rider, tend to ride low candence, ride through the winter with salted and wet roads. I think I am doing a reasonable job with cleaning and relubing nowadays. Did a 3000km ride this summer with only very basic maintenance.
Changing chain at 0.5 seems early. I'm doing it at0.7 at my 11s Shimano drivetrain and working perfect... Looks like only thing i need is new better lubricant🙂
Been using KMC X12 Ti-n Chain. Cost $40-$50 US. Seems to be as good as SRAM force X12 chain. $45-50 US.
Any opinion on KMC
Ti-N is really just for the bling, as the coating is only a few microns thick, and wears off at friction points in no time flat. X12 chains are pretty solid in themselves, with decent tolerances, and once you get their gooey packing grease off, hold onto wax coating pretty well.
@askgcn is it possible to run a top tier 12speed chain sutch as sram xx1 on a 10speed groupset (tiagra ) as it say in this video ?
From 5-8 speeds the insides of the chains stayed more or less constant - the outsides of the chains were getting skinnier. Same holds true from 9-12, i guess. But still the stretch comes from the side plates, so skinnier side plates = more stretch ...
I have read somewhere that the main contributor of chain "stretch" is actually not the actual stretching of the links but rather the wearing away of the "bearings" connecting each link. (More wear means more play. Stacking all that play for all the links gives a longer chain)
Would explain why they only talk about the insides of the chains in this video too.
A rare occasion where a Brit is more suntanned here. I use wax it definitely works for me and im also just using the factory sram lube on my indoor trainer for some time.
Is all of his lube testing based on "dry conditions" ? It would be interesting to see how the different systems / products perform in a wet environment which would be more applicable to the majority of viewers in Europe.
I live in Thailand where we have a monsoon season and I have doubled the life of my chains from c 4000 Km to 8000 Km by using a "Wet" lubricant and changing from a 3 x drive to a 1 x drive.
No, they test wet and wet and dirty conditions too. That testing data is available on the Zero Friction Cycling website.
Adam lists his test protocol on his website, but basically starts with no contamination, then dry contamination, then wet contamination, and if it survives that, then a double dose of wet contamination.
Wax is still generally the best performing lube in wet conditions, but it won’t last as long as it would in dry conditions before you need to reapply. Put another way, any lube that is sticky enough to remain on your chain in the wet, is also sticky enough to retain all the mud and road grit and turn into a chain-eating abrasive paste rather than filling its role as a lube.
There are some unusual situations (eg. A 24 hour MTB race) where an oil based lube would be better (because there is not enough time for a wax lube to dry and harden), but those situations are … unusual.
Just a little more detail from the other reply. He has 6 "blocks" of tests, each 1000 km. The first block is dry with no contamination and lubing 3 times. The second block is dry with dirt and sand continually added and lubing 6 times. The third block is dry with no contamination, no cleaning from block 2 and lubing 3 times again. The idea is to see if the lube can carry away the contamination from block 2. The fourth block is we with water added continuously and lubing 6 times. The fifth is dry with no contamination and lubing 3 times again. The idea is to see if the lube can carry away the water. The sixth is sand, dirt and water added at twice the volume of blocks 2 and 4, lubing 6 times again.
Not every lube is tested in all 6 blocks. Basically, the test is stopped if the chain doesn't survive (so he never replaces the chain). At the end of a block, if the chain is over the 0.5% total wear limit, he stops the test. Anticipating the reason for your question: all immersive wax lubes (including normal candle wax) survived the entire test well (although for some reason he hasn't gotten to block 6 of the candle wax test yet). All of the immersive wax tests also performed better in the wet than the wet lubes that made it to the 4th block. The top immersive wax in the wet (Silca Hot Melt) performs more than 3 times better than the top wet lube (Silca Synergetic). Hot melt had 8% of the 0.5% wear limit in block 4 vs the 27% wear of Synergetic). It's not even a close battle.
Josh from Silca has speculated that wet lubes appear to perform better in the wet because they they are thicker and dampen the sound. Even though they aren't actually protecting the chain very well any more, you can't hear them and so people think they are performing better. He's pretty clear that he believes that all immersive wax (from any producer) perform better than wet lubes, even in the wet. And that applies to Synergetic as well. There are reasons you might want to run wet lubes, but getting maximum protection for your drive chain isn't one of them.
If you run waxed chains, just dips them in isopropyl alcohol after a wet ride, and they will be dry, it wont dissolve the wax, but its very hydrophilic and absorbs the water. Or run a rotation, of chains ,and just swap them out. The wax is so good, ive actually waxed rusty chains before, and the rust just gets pushed out, and the chain is eventually indistinguishable from a new chain, with no less wear.
The single speed chain on my commuter bike is outside 24 7 and has been for years, hasnt worn that much
I’ve been using wax on my race bikes for a couple of years with good results.
I’ve tried it this winter for the first time but after 3 or 4 hours in the rain my chain gets so dry and noisy I’ve had to go back to wet lube.
Good episode 👍
The fact that lubricants and waxes develop.. do not increase the lifetime of the chain.. they only give the opportunity to make the chain from cheaper raw materials 😁
Why are most waxes based on paraffin? Why not use harder types of wax.. some waxes are almost as hard as plastic??
Applicability & cost. Paraffin is available and usable, whereas other more sophisticated waxes require very specific application treatments, and tend towards a more permanent treatment, like a deposited coating, which can't be broken down and reapplied as needed. '
This is hands down my absolute favorite GCN interview!!! Thank you so much Adam Kerin, Alex, and rest of GCN team for this gem!!! So informative!!! :)
they said alex was on holiday in NYC. did adam travel there at the same time as well?
Wax is great if you don't live near the coast. Near the coast, rust will kill your drivetrain and you need a wet lube. Immersive wax is also super cheap once you have set yourself up. Go look at Oz Cycle for a DIY recipe.
what im wondering is, in regard to the cost of each application and the amount of lubricant you apply, how do you even remotely track how much lube youre putting on... like if i get a bottle of lubricant and im doing one drip for each connection of the links, how do i differentiate between 5-6 mL and 2-3 mL to keep it effective to buy the more expensive lube...
The roads on my commute are so crappy I switched back to 7 speed, cheaper parts. Use Viking Juice in winter, Squirt rest of year. Measure chain often and replace at .5%
I think up to 8 speed replacing at .75% was fine
yeah his point though is that because of the wear rate of those cheaper chains, that turns out to be a false sense of economy when you actually calculate out the mileage you get from your lube and the chain, and the other components all together. apparently you missed the point in the video where he talks about how those 8-9-10 speed chains are cheaper because they don't have any protective coating at all and they're made from softer metal, so even without any contaminant they're going to wear out faster then the other chains anyway.
of course he hasn't been able to do any testing with road-salt and snow, I think though he could do one of his test blocks with salt water and that would at least give an idea, even if he can't do snow, I would think it would actually be similar because the salt dust (post storm, after the roads have all dried out) and salt water is what really seems to mess up my chain.
@@markusseppala6547he talks about that on his own channel. 0.75% is too late, 0.5% is the limit, 0.3% is optimal... remember his entire goal is to make the cassette and chain rings last as long as possible because those are the most expensive components. he kind of alludes to it in this conversation, but for the most part he sticks to talking about the chain, because the chain is the biggest factor. the reason 0.5% is the limit is because of what he was talking about here, the wear-rate growth is exponential. most people don't have a new chain ready to go, and they think that when they hit that 0.5% that they have plenty of time to get a new chain, or they don't have time in that moment to do it, and by the time they actually change it, it's way past that 0.75%. and now they also need a new cassette and possibly chainrings. and I have to say that I myself have been caught out by this several times, and I actually noticed the wear on the cassette before I even thought it was time to check for 0.75%
Wipperman do high quality 7 speed chains. My fully plated YBN chains cost just £4 each and are great, I get good 7 speed cassettes for £11. I don't believe his spiel. I check for stretch regularly replace at .5% stretch, so cassette lasts 3 chains.
Where are you buying those chains please? @@draugmithrin
Adam is brilliant, as usual. Thanks for showing the whole interview.
How are people taking chain off so regularly like this guy is suggesting, is this re-using a quick link many times or using a new pin every time?
I usually reuse my quick link about 4X and then replace.
Was reusing over and over 8-12 or more times and had several issues on the road and racing. Sorry my opinion only. But have been removing my chain and cleaning 🧼 for many years.
This is my scepticism about no faff. You have to get a chain breaker and pins or quick link pliers and quick links. Maybe it’s habit but degreasing and re-lubing just seems easier to me. Invest in a chain checker (Shimano based on ZCF’s reviews) and replace the chain when worn.
Reused my quick links (xo1& xx1) many, many times. Between two chains 4500miles with cleaning every 50-150miles. In xo1 & xx1 case, they aren’t that fragile.
Reuse mine until they don't have a solid "click" when reattaching.. they've lasted me a very long time
I use liquid gold lubricant. I wipe the chain with Terry cloth before and after every ride, and I drip lube one the chain every other day, let the chain spin for 5 minutes, then briefly wipe it off. no mess, no fuss. I have never sure what road bikers are complaining about. I live in an area that can be dry for days, and occasionally wet for days, dust or sand is often present. I commute and recreate on my bikes. daily transportation. I live in mountains. every three chain replacements, I replace the most often used front chain rings. you folks make chain maintenance seem like a chore filled with mystery.
Anyone heard more info on why the RED axs chain is slower than the Force chains in ZF testing? Maybe there’s a break in period? What are the pros running?
tighter initial tolerances and harder wear surface treatments, and also, I have been told, the surface treatments being optimised for waxing.
What’s your take on quick links? I’ve been waxing my road bike chains for over a year and I have been reusing my quick links with no problem. Now I’m considering waxing my new e-bike chain and SRAM says T-type links are one use only. Meaning every waxing would cost an extra $6.00.
I'm switching from a 11-25 cassette to a 12-28 do I need to add links to my chain or would I be ok. Don't really want to buy another chain as it's only had 200-250 miles on it, and what other adjustments would I need to do. Any help would be appreciated. What do you think of the DLC chains.
Yes you'll need to fit a longer chain.
Do note that all of the cost savings and power savings numbers quoted by Adam are for riding at 250 watts.
If you ride at 150 watts, multiply his numbers by 25%.
The power exerted to chain wear relationship is not linear, it is exponential.
Adam provides a lot of useful information, but I find it disingenuous for him to not point this out.
Can you use a cheap body wax heater pot for chain wax?
You can use anything that melts the wax. I use a $13 crock pot off amazon.
Should we even ride anything else than hub gears outside racing? Its so cheap and chainline is always perfect. Plus replacing the whole drivetrain is dirt cheap compares to cassette.
Genuine question: can it handle above 1000W sprints, +500W efforts? I'm not racing nor planning to, but riding with friends and family. Sometimes we like to push a little for fun, so I need one bike to do it all.
I don't race, but I run three chains in series and change them on the first of every month, and keep them waxed up and ready to go.
About chain stretch…I’ve just replaced my Ultegra chain with a new one (like for like). Out of curiosity, I lay the old chain against the new chain and over the span of 53 links (or 106 pins) there was a difference of a full link (distance between 2 pin). Is that amount of stretch normal? The old chain was regularly cleaned, degreased and lubed with a wax based product so the wear really surprised me. I replaced the cassette at the same time and the shifting was MASSIVELY improved. However, whenever I put the hammer down out of the saddle, I get a huge amount of slippage on the crank’s chain rings (dangerous!). The Ultegra chain rings have around 5000 miles on them but look OK. Is it standard practice to replace all 3 main parts of the drive train at the same time? Should I replace chainset too?
if you have a full link difference then it amounts to about 2%. Considering they say we should replace the chains when they reach 0.5% wear, so it does not wear the other components too much. You kept it for too long and now the new chain does not sit well on the chainring.
I wax my chain hotmelt every 250 km and the work is like a breeze. There is no reason to not do this.
Totally. After the initial reset of the chain it takes 10minutes. No need to regularly clean drive chain either which saves a bunch of time (and money) as well
Before I watch this, am I going to get anything more from it, that I have not before from hours of ZFC videos?
How does drip wax get between the pins and their pin holes in their outer and inner plates? I know petrol lubes can wick into those places. Can wax build-up prevent new drip wax from getting into those critcal areas?
Seems so, yes. At least it will not remove the unwanted stuff that's built up inside. I assume that's why first drip wax application shows a long lifespan in zfc tests. Afterwards immersive wax wins due to the cleaning properties with every treatment.
0:52 I made myself a brew. Problem is it’s 5am.
ok TIL. i can actually just use wax/wax based lube even in rainy conditions. i've always thought that you're supposed to use wet lube in EU fall/winter. definitely wasted a casette/chainring also by leaving the chain on too long lol 😅
What is the cause of chain stretching, the pins wearing the link holes (not actually steel stretching)?
How does lubing the rollers help chain stretch?
What about chains that use stainless steel for the inner links, softer metal to stretch sooner?
Most of the wear ("stretch") occurs on the inner surface of the rollers and the outer surface of the pins.
Not stretch. Always mechanical wear. There are some popular YouRube riders that wax showing >10,000 km drivetrains with no apparent wear. Includes MTB and eMTB.
& on the flanges of the inner plates, where they bend to form the 'inner' sleeve of the chain. @@JGRGilbert
I have a waxed chain with 6000km of beach riding in the salt and sand, that I can BARELY tell from some of the new chains in my rotation. @@stephendenagy3396
What brand candle wax did you use?
Why not just use canning paraffin? I’ve never understood the idea of using candles-they contain dyes and fragrances, and are certainly more $ per pound than “Gulf Wax” paraffin in 1lb bricks.
The Aussie guy (another video) actually used candles, thought how goofy is that?
I have used gulf canning wax for nearly a decade. Inexpensive and easy to buy.