Okay... Foot Rudiments | EP3 | Pro Drummer Learns Double Bass
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- Опубліковано 27 жов 2023
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#drums #drumming #drumlesson #drumsolo #metal #doublebass #howto #practice #vlog #demonxr #pedal #doublekick #kickdrum #blastbeat #tutorial #fast #feet #pearldrums #meinlcymbals #recording #evansdrumheads #mixing #audio #gain
This friggin series is so awesome. Adam I started watching your channel, I’m pretty sure seven years ago. I’m guitar player and didn’t know anything about drums when my five year old decided he wanted to play. I came to UA-cam and found a bunch of drum channels. Yours was one of them. Watching you take on this double bass journey is incredible. As a fellow musician it’s awesome to see older cats, like my self still learning new tricks. Never stop being a student homie.
Dude please do not sell yourself or your content short. In a world of polished and perfectly edited “UA-cam drummer” videos, it’s wildly refreshing and inspiring to see someone who already is a monster player taking on a new and challenging task. And doing so in such an unfiltered way. I imagine you have lots of younger viewers, and you intentionally showing those viewers that, yes, even the badass pros fuck things up - I can’t imagine that not being incredibly encouraging for young/new players to see. You may already be aware of all this. But coming from someone who is terrified to create content of any kind for this very reason, I salute you. And it seems like you’re progressing very quickly.
As far as trying to get a direct drive to feel like a chain drive - I’ve owned the dw mdd as well as the pearl demon drives and no matter how much I fucked with them they just never felt as good as my old piece of shit Camco chain pedals. And I think it has to do with the geometry of the propulsion of the drive. A chain drive, even with a heavily accelerated sprocket will tend to have a much more linear and “smooth” action. Direct drives (to me) always make me say “WOW these are sooooo smooth!” Until I start actually playing them. And then I find that often times the pedals are actually making me work way harder than I have to. I sold both direct drive pedals in favor of an old janky tama Camco double pedal and I find it’s way easier to execute what I hear in my head on those pedals. The cams on those are perfect rounded.
This is also not me talking shit on direct drives. They clearly exist for a reason and people clearly love them and do amazing things with them. I’m only speaking to my own experiences and sharing my own thoughts on why they feel so different.
I’m very much enjoying watching you go on this journey. Thanks for the inspiration dude!
This is the longest comment I’ve ever seen 😂
That F$#@ was so raw and real it’s nice to see some of the people we look up to struggle with new concepts. Thank you for these videos.
Leading with the left on regular grooves is a huge gamechanger if you're not trying it. Really gets the left foot working overtime to get closer to the right
And since he had the left foot going keeping time on the hats he already has a great base for dual kick
Mario DuPlantier once said that every good double bass pattern he's written started with his left foot.
balance is everything. yes yes
Correct! This was covered in Episode 2.😉
Not really a rudiment but Vinnie Paul does use some double strokes in the drum part for Pantera's Becoming. Gene Hoglan calls this the double slap technique
It's called a Herta, yes it is a rudiment
@@tommodeski8637 a Herta is RLR L/LRL R, the double slap is RRL/LLR
@David-cu1xy thats nice but the pantera bass drum figure for becoming is a Herta.
@@tommodeski8637 nope, there are multiple videos on youtube that explain it
Listen to Angra’s “Acid Rain” off Rebirth. The drum beat for the verse diddles the drags at the beginning and the end. It is essentially a Swiss roll split by two bars of 16th note staccatos. Aquiles Priester uses this beat quite often. The Hertha on Meshuggah’s Bleed of Obzen starts getting temporally displaced after the second verse with basically a paradiddle diddle. Gavin Harrison uses a form of the 5 stroke roll in several songs on the Fear of a Blank Planet album by Porcupine Tree. The “difficult 3 against 4” in Anesthetize is actually not the hardest beat to play off of that song. Danney Carey uses a 5 and 7 stroke roll on Right in Two on the bass drums from 10,000 Days by Tool. And a funky one to play is Mission Motherland by Uli Kusch off of Helloween’s Time Of the Oath album. It’s a sextuplet followed by a gallop done with a diddle on the bass drum. And who can forget the solo for Iron Maiden’s Dream Of Mirrors off of A Brave New World. Whilst Nico is known for only using a single pedal, even on songs like The Wicker Man, the concept applies there.
Rhythmic choices ≠ rudiments. Although they sound like rudiments, they don’t feature some of the technical requirements that make that rudiment “correct.” Bleed is one dynamic for kick, but a hertha requires accents and non-accents. Same with ratamacue-like references in Acid Rain. He’s not doing a drag, and the 32nds are the same dynamic as the 16ths. In short, these guy’s are playing particular rhythms but not rudiments by any means.
Now there is a SUPER weak argument that people use rudiments when their “sticking” choice during syncopated rhythms are played with a leading foot for personal preference. I.e. some people use doubles/heel-toe on a dominant foot during technical rhythms so the sticking doesn’t inverse on the repeat. Lots of guys do that, but it’s not rooted in rudiments by any means.
I'm very curious to know where the five stroke roll is played on FOABP. Can you mention some timestamps in specific songs? Also where is there a five against seven roll in Right in Two? The only part I can even recall that has double bass in the song is the steady eighth notes he plays under the guitar solo, with the hands accenting specific beats. The rest of the song is entirely played with just one bass pedal.
thanks for uploading this man, watching someone as clean as you struggle too gives you a ton of confidence when approaching new stuff over the kit
This whole series has been an inspiration to me in getting back into drumming after 6 years. My Iron Cobras got dusty, boy.
Iron cobras are the best. No need to worry my friend. Use some white lithium grease for the chain drives and you're good to go
@@FrankAlvillar-sz8fb Heck yeah, thanks for the tip, brewskie.
I have seen Thomas Lang playing rudiments on his bass drums for years and I love it. He´s not looking for being the fastest but the most versatile approach to play anything he wants. He can add more dynamics using different foot techniques when playing rudiments.
Lang also has multiple foot pedals. So, that maybe one of the reasons he chooses to employ rudiments. And also, he's a monster.
@@mikeskenne yeah totally agree
Adam, good morning wishes to you from Washington state. I must tell you that I am going to be sad when this double bass tutorial ends. I am so enjoying your teaching approach and appreciate it greatly. I am a retired educator having spent 39 years teaching in the elementary school and 45 years as a varsity football coach. Your method of breaking things down really helps me grasp the objective.
I am battling one major obstacle in this 3 year drumming venture of mine. I am self taught and as a result have many holes in my playing, which at 73 years old are getting harder and harder to overcome, because I just don’t want to sit down and spend as much time as I need to to learn complicated techniques. It’s much more fun for me to just plop in a cd and start playing.
I only heard of rudiments in drumming a couple of years ago and have worked a bit learning a paradiddle but have yet to incorporate one in my playing. This leads me to my main question for you, my friend. How many paradiddles could a paradiddle diddle if a a paradiddle could diddle diddles?
Thank you again so very much for taking your time to share your venturing into a new phase of drumming for you.
Dude just love your process 🤘
Nice video Adam...thanks!!
The mix on your kit is 🔥
Its so cool to see someone so seriously talented in most everything hes tried play mix it up and apply that type of practice technique to something new.
All great points! I'm trying to improve that area too! Thanks
Wow. One of the most important and informative drum videos I've watched. Very good.
Becoming from panthera is one of these songs that require rudiments in double pedal because of some patterns that are played. Also if you watch the drumeo video about double slap from Gene hoglan you can see that the use of doubles in double bass can be a way to help achieve some complex patterns that would be much harder and much more demanding without this technique
I love this series so much! I'm in the exact same position only no prospects for using any of my double pedal stuff in the gigs I have booked. My hope is to sneak in some of this stuff in my rock/pop sets and not get fired in the process :) great work and thank you for picking up the subject!
Amazing!
Thank you for taking us on this journey, Adam! I find foot practise to be tedious and taking forever to see improvements, it’s really nice the way you document your journey. Now, about foot rudiments: I started out with Stick Control for a while, as I hoped doing the patterns on my feet would help make my feet nimble, like I recall a side effect for the hands when they did the first year of rudiments. It kind of did something to wake up the muscles n the feet. But then you’re right, you’re hitting the bass drum pretty much without accents, and if it’s an accent most likely a double of sorts. I still thank the rudiments for some stop/start thing my feet now can do better. Love this series - keep it up!
PLEASE keep doing this series, I'm super invested and now I want to learn double bass - I'm in a metalcore band, but I've always insisted on single-pedal drumming (whether its out of pride or laziness is debatable haha). This series has really made me want to put the time and effort into expanding my drumming abilities.
Marvellous!
Great content bro
Double bass is so overwhelming. Get those ankles going and relax your legs. Easier said than done, but with consecutive singles for the feet, it’s CRUCIAL for uptempo runs, groove, and overall balance on the kit. Thanks for these videos. Loving it 🤘🏻
Hey Adam! As I mentioned in a comment in the last video of this series, I'm an extreme metal drummer that subscribed to your platform only recently (couple of years ago) because I became interested in learning more about linear drumming.
When it comes to direct-drive/chain pedals, I can give you my anecdotal experience: after 6 years on playing on a direct-drive (first Pearl Demon Drive and then Axis), I switched back to a Tama Iron Cobra chain pedal a year ago or so. What I personally got from the direct-drive pedals (and this seems to have been the experience of other extreme drummers as well) is that they are set in such a way (in addition to the reduced beater angle and insane spring tension) to use a technique that requires a very minimal movement from the foot to achieve a very fast speed, basically letting the pedals doing all the work with minimal contribution from the feet; this of course allows one to go very fast, but it's such a weird feeling to master as you have to give up a lot of control and get used to that very limited movement of the feet, which are basically delegated to just syncing with the rebound of the pedal.
By contrast, chain pedals are much more "physical" in a way (especially when you start to experiment with different cams options), as you can kinda feel a much closer relationship from the effort you're putting into a stroke being translated into the actual impact on the bass drum and that I believe gives one much more control - so at least for me, it was a refreshing change, as I wanted to be able to also play more intricate patterns with pauses and all, instead of just continuous straight 16th notes at 220 bpms 😅
I hope this was somehow useful! And I can't wait to hear the end result of the work with Nick, Dead Hero was a masterpiece (as all the others, but that one just stuck with me in a special way) and I'm sure we're in for a treat!
Really great insight and observations about double pedal and the challenges with different drives. I bought a Trick pro-1v pedal years ago thinking it would be the last pedal I'd ever buy. I couldn't get consistent at all with it. I put in a few months of work with it but I never got comfortable with it. It's just too sensitive for the way I play.
Awesome!!!!
Another great video, super interesting and insightful. You are an amazing drummer and a very philosophical mind, look forward to checking out the podcast too 🙂🎶
Hey Adam, love the content. I just wanted to point out, incase anyone else hasn’t yet. In certain types of metal there is a technique of doing double strokes on the kick in order for you to play faster. It usually doesn’t do anything with the dynamics, because most drummers who do this technique use triggers live. Hope this helps. Thanks again and I really like watching your stuff. I always learn something from you on every video I watch.
Something that has helped me with control was going through the chromatic scale on the pedals. Quarter notes, to 8th to 8th note triplets, 16th note and 16note triplets.
“Dog boots” by Planet X has double strokes with the feet as the main groove and makes it sound quite unique instead of singles.
I've played chain drives for 10+ years. The switch to direct drives took a good year to find my stride so to speak. Love the videos, lots of thought evoking ideas.
I suspect that Cam Fleury speaks the truth. To get really comfortable with the feel of DD pedals and be able to execute as you to on your Eliminator may take longer than you have right now, if mid-December is a hard date for completing this project. You can get OK in the next 6 weeks, but you may not have the instinctive confidence that you now have in your chains.
I've been playing a double pedal for over 20 years, and while I have no aspirations on being the fastest, getting better is always fun. This series certainly is inspiring me. Thank you!
No comment on chain vs direct drive, as I've never had the opportunity to play a direct. I did switch from an older set of Power Glide Iron Cobras to Speed Cobras a couple years ago, and it certainly took a little of adjustment to find the place where my feet felt best on the board.
One of favorite exercises is to play singles, doubles, and triples with opposing limbs at the same time, alternating after a bar of 4. RH + LF, LH + RF. I feel like it pushes my weaker side to keep up with my dominant side.
Looking forward to the next installment!
Let’s go Adam. I still miss the podcast and especially “timekeepers” being a timepiece addict.
Really interesting to watch your process and to see how well focused practice works because you’re already playing things much better than many drummers I know.
There is still a little bit of inconsistency with your straight 16th grooves, and I remember struggling with this for AGES.
One thing that really helped me sort it out, and I’ve seen it help others too, is to play along to music. Like, find some music in the tempo you want to practice to, preferably something electronic and just jam over it. You’re basically putting your playing into a more musical context and, for me, it really helped with the muscle memory and feel.
I personally would play along to a Static X song called Lunatic over and over. It’s just a repetitive groove for the entire song and at a really slow and accessible tempo.
As I started doing this I realised that there was something about how I “weighted” my left leg in order to get a consistent robotic sound was what helped me a lot. I couldn’t figure it out with a click somehow, but after doing this and going back to a click later, there was a massive difference.
I hope that helps!
I have always played with chain driven double pedals (with round cams) but recently I got to play with direct drive double pedals and after a quick board height adjustment, they surprisingly felt very normal to me. I quess I got them set up perfectly for me.
I'd say it's good to try different pedal settings and also play with other pedals too, switch around beaters, etc. just to get to know how you can easily adjust any pedal for your preference. Also, you'll learn to adapt to slightly different playing feels without even thinking about it👍
I appreciate these videos. I’d like to say that diddles on your pedals open you up to a plethora of skill sets, compositions, speeds, and consistency that you could never dream of having otherwise. You are undoubtedly a superior drummer to me in many ways. However, my personal recommendation for you to truly master double kick as you’ve mastered the rest of the kit, is to study heel-toe or heel down foot techniques. Most of my references would lie in extremely fast metal bands such as Lorna Shore, Despised Icon, and many many more; but I believe there are applications for this where it becomes ergonomically efficient to apply these techniques in certain kick drum pieces. Hope this helps, encourages, and challenges!
Thought you werent going to mess with bass drum rudiments 😂😂😂😂❤ love you dawg ❤
As someone who has played drums since the mid 1980s but never learned rudiments beyond paradiddles and triple strokes, I've actually never heard the purpose of rudiments explained in that way. I always thought, or thought I thought..., that they were just something that people learned for completeness, so to speak. Just hearing your take on it has now made me determined to learn them all.
On a practical matter, and speaking from recent personal experience, I noticed when you were playing in bare feet, especially your left foot, that you make one of the main mistakes new double bass players apparently tend to make which is allowing your toes to come clear of the pedal(s). Until recently I did the same thing, maybe I still do to some extent, I was essentially sprinting on my pedals, and my legs, especially shins, would soon burn up. Ankle technique is apparently the answer, the foot never leaves the pedal and the impetus for the stroke is generated by the calf muscle contracting and lifting the heel, not the shins pushing down the toes or the upper thighs lifting the whole leg, or a combination of both. If you're not already aware I'd suggest checking out Martin's tutorials at the Drum Technique Academy. Subscribed by the way, loving this series so far, keep them insights coming... 🍻
Hey Adam, love this series so far. My point or “counter argument” with rudiments on the feet, although I generally agree with your points, is in regards to normalizing motions in the non dominant side. Not necessarily applied to dynamics but rather interesting “stickings”/“footings”. Great example is breaking down the order of rights and lefts Garstka uses in the Woven Web breakdown. This incorporates interesting left foot leads and left foot doubles that at least in my opinion actually make the part easier than muscling single strokes throughout the section. But the control for doubles or triples in the left is just not there at first. I guess my point more concisely is the “separately half” of the rudiment/pattern on the left side used as it’s own rhythmic exercise can really benefit control development, just like the benefit of “hand splitting” rudiments to understand the inner workings of a rudiment better. Hard to type this all out but I hope it makes sense. Keep it up, and stoked to hear the new tunes in December!
while agreeing with your perspective on double bass for the most part. i have to say adding in doubles is great for feel because it breaks up the linearity.
in my opinion get consistency down first (the linear feel)
then add in the extras (doubles and what not) to enhance the groove.
technique is great but if there is no groove it becomes fatiguing to listen to.
Adam, thanks for all the years of sharing the good, bad & ugly. i have much respect for you & I'm greatful to have found your channel.
Direct drive vs Chain is always ever been a matter of preference. I found that my faster range double bass gets weaker on chain drive - but we're talking 220bpm+, where as direct drive not so much but I've always preferred the feel of chain and my eliminators never leave my setup.
You nailed it with double bass and rudiments on the bass drum - Also there's always an element of tension and balance on double bass in your legs, and doing rudiments can break that tension and balance and cause problems for singles in the long run. That being said, there are lots of drummers who use techniques to generate doubles in what would normally be straight 16th notes - but that's really advanced stuff. Check out Soilwork - Nerve as an example.
Love this video series. I find just as fascinating as your teaching and music..so thank you for showing(the good, the bad, and the ugly) your journey/learning curve w/ double pedal.
I'm humble opinion you might wanna just consider getting the chain version of your current set, or is there a way to swap the cams?,
It's gonna be way quicker to get used to them, not to knock direct drive, but as you said, you got 20 years of CD under your belt...use em😉.
Also you might wanna consider a second close(ish) hihat, for when you play the longer 16th runs..and put less pressure on your left foot. That being said, it's also new thing to adapt, so maybe too much and not enough time? Either way, Best of luck man!
When you spoke bout moving your feet, the first thing that came to my mind was Moffett playing 3 different bass drums :)
I agree that the rudiment/double bass area doesn't have a lot of practicality, but if instead of a second bass drum you have a different sound source on the second pedal (cowbell, clave block, electronics etc) it could be a useful tool to have in the arsenal. And playing/practicing your normal single kick patterns with the left foot will build better facility than your standard hi-hat foot work. Your stuff is sounding great - can't wait to hear the new track!
I have to agree with you Adam. A lot of the comments I am reading give examples where drummers played double strokes but I still feel they could be played with single strokes. The only exception would be if you are using 3 or 4 different striking surfaces for your feet where you need to move the feet over to a different pedal. That’s where I can see rudiments coming in to play just like with the hands. Yes, being able to develop your feet to play rudiments is an amazing skill, but not necessarily super practical when both beaters are striking the same surface.
Actually, another one just came to mind. Flams on the kick can be pretty cool.
I always enjoy your vids man. Keep them coming!
Pantera’s “Becoming” - Vinnie Paul (RIP) uses the herta played with a double stroke on his right foot. The run that ends the song best illustrates how he diddled his right foot throughout this tune.
*LOVE this video series btw 🤘
Hey adam,
Could you try and learn the ankle technique? I would love to see you try that
Adam, thanks again for your videos and these inspiring series! I love it. Dont polish them. Raw footage, mistakes, you sharing thoughts on what works and what doesnt - thats gold.
I'd like to make a point about rudiments. I agree with everything you said with one exception that is really important for me as I struggle with my double bass learning.
There are lots of sense to try to do double bass rythmic parts with left foot leading. If you have double bass practice routine, do those excercises slow with left foot leading (and 4/4 ride/snare beat on top). You will experience that after some time casual double bass rythms (with right foot lead) becomes much more controlled and tight.
For me it helps to do 16th note groupings of 3, 5, 7 alternating. RLR LRL RLR LRL (with 4/4 beat on top), RLRLR LRLRL RLRLR LRLRL, RLRLRLR LRLRLRL etc...
Keep doing great work!
Thanks for the kind words.
Realistically, this series would be entirely unwatchable without heavy editing. A genuine "practice vlog" would retain viewers for 20 seconds, at which point they'd quickly skim through the video, and leave. UA-cam would bury the video in their algorithm, and you wouldn't know this series existed. The heavy editing is the precise reason you know this series exists at all. If it's not "watchable" by UA-cam's standards, it will not be seen. I don't make the rules, but I do have to play by them.
Regarding foot rudiments, using phrases like "it really helps" and "makes lots of sense" and "controlled and tight" are just vague sentiments about your exercises; not arguments for their use. You'd have to articulate why those patterns are necessary to execute a specific musical idea, which would otherwise not be achievable with any alternative pattern. I'm not hearing why these patterns are required; I'm hearing why you like them.
Respectfully, your description of the value of foot rudiments seems to be summed up at 15:48
I love your channel! What kind on snare is that!!! It reminded me of a Solid Percussion 4 3/4"x 14" I owned in the 80's.
Hey Adam, I have used Tama Speed Cobras with a Trick driveshaft mod for 5 years.I have reached a ceiling of 200 bpm on the speed cobras, and no amount of practice was working to increase my foot speed. After watching all my UA-cam inspirations (you, El Estapario, 66 Semus etc)switch to demon xr , I made the leap.
I have both pedals hooked up on 2 kits, Here’s my takeaway: the left pedal is WAY more responsive on the Demon XRs. The Tama left pedal feels super laggy and behind the beat in comparison , even with the Trick driveshaft. For me this was a game changer and I would never go back. It’s night and day for me as I was really having to compensate for the lag. The demon XRs just felt right to me out of the box, though I like my beaters extended fully, which does help with power and the feeing of weight.
I think you are on the right track with lifting the beaters and adjusting the tilt to make them feel like what you are used to, though I love the heavy springs, which for me was a dream come true, as the speed cobras rely on a gimmicky cobra coil underneath for extra lift, which I don’t think actually does anything. Danny Carey from tool plays a super loose spring with a ton of beater travel, it’s really just where you find what works for you.
My big complaint it that the beater head angles aren’t adjustable, and on my DW kit the pedal sits off the head too far for the beaters to hit square, so only the top part of the beater hit the head, so I swapped them with my adjustable tama beaters and now I have to buy another set, and they aren’t cheap. For $ 1,100 I shouldn’t have to kick down $80 so the pedal will work on my standard bass drum.
I would like to reach your level of double bass drumming actually 😅 Thanks to share your experience, this series is very interesting for drummers who are struggling (like me) on double-bass !!
I had the Demon Drive direct drive pedal after doing chains.
I liked the immediacy and adjustability but couldn't get used to direct drive.
I changed back (after a few years) and it was like coming home. Everything clicked.
Having been through the same situation, Adam, I'd recommend you go back to chain drive.
Hi Adam,
here are my thoughts on playing DB:
- the drive is a matter of preference. Chain and strap have almost the same feeling while chain has the potential to make more noise. Direct drives are nice but have the potential to irritate you - meaning: since it´s a direct link it "slaps" your foot from the bottom. While this can be beneficial at tempos over 220 bpm it can be detrimental to your playing regular groove play.
- if I was in your situation (years of playing with a single pedal) I´d structure my practice based on "weaker side" from Dom Famularo and work on stick control with the feet. The first one helps the left foot to catch up and stick control helps for playing together / coordination. And don´t forget to practice heel down - even if you play heel up. The power comes from the calves and your muscles help with the balance.
- In addition to that I think rudiments on the feet should be used the sake of coordination. It helps to even out your legs.
I can´t think of an album where rudiments are necessary to play, however Thomas Lang and Claus Hessler can play rudiments exceptionally well with their feet. Thomas has a huge range of dynamics and Claus can play pretty much every rudimental piece with his feet. Ultimately it depends on what you need. If you want to have the ultimate freedom in being able to play everything you can imagine, go for Claus` and Thomas` way. If you want to stay "normal" then single strokes it is :D
cheers from Vienna \o/
To answer your question about double bass patterns… Virgil Donati. And, patterns w/double bass… think outside the “box”. Just because no one has recorded these rudiments, well known guys Loe Stronsik teaches this. His course is Ballistic Bass Drums. ie. his 16th combination lesson where each note is doubled you wind up doing a 6 stroke roll.
Adam, one thing that helped me was not the pedal, having something to help me keep time. That was using a Gibraltar x-hat. It allow a hi hat to stay closed & tight. I have it on my right near floor tom. For me having my right hand “open” relaxed me. Just a tip… hope you get where you want to be.
It's important that those bass drum strokes be clearly heard so chain it is.
I've played chain drive majority of my drumming life, started at age 11 and I'm 53 now, Tama iron cobras is what I used. Direct drive is a different feel, so for someone new to double bass altogether either or wouldn't make much difference, the struggle is the same learning double bass. It's persistent learning and practicing is what pays off. First learn the basics then start applying different techniques and experimentations. As for complex drumming of double bass extremes check out the band Meshuggah the song Bleed..... Tomas Haake does some intense foot work that'll make your head spin. Also as one commented on a Brazilian drummer Aquiles Priester does some amazing drumming 👍✌️🤘😎🤘
I’ve used the Pearl demon drive exclusively for the better part of 15 years. However, on my students drum kit, I have the eliminator chain drive. When I play with that pedal, I still love it and can use it on a gig easily with no retrain. However, I prefer the demon drive for its overall smoothness and feel. I use one weight on it (mainly to keep my beater in the ideal position) and I use lowboy bass drum beaters. I’ve also liked the dw9000 chain for its overall feel but I’m staying with direct drive.
I would ask Benny greb since he's probably the most versatile in this situation and pick up tips too on adjusting double pedal use within lighter music like funk and jazz.
I've been playing double bass since I started playing drums back in 2001 or something and there were times when I actually tried to work on rudiments with my feet, but I always abandoned the struggle eventually. I totally agree with two of your points:
1. It's an almost absolute certainty that you will never be able to apply that in a practical, musical context. Ever. With the exception of, as you said, novelty soloing, or I'd say when you are the creative leader and the main composer of the musical project and you specifically build a song around a feet rudiment. Like Thomas Lang often does.
2. It's mostly just an extremely hard exercise for the purpose of being super hard. You know, to give you an extreme challenge and make you push yourself. And that's good. I'd recommend going for crazy shit when you're young and have a ton of time for that. But it's not practical and the time invested will not pay off very efficiently.
So, if you're planning to have multiple sound sources for your feet (I mean more than just hi-hat and bass drum) and you have a specific dream where to go with it musically, then go for it.
But it's just not worth it for 99,99% of musical situations.
What's MUCH more interesting and effective is investing time in hertas and different combinations of hertas (2-2, 2-4, 2-6, 2-8, etc.) against different grooves with your hands. Which will also force you to often lead with your left foot. Now that is a long-run challenge that provides an interesting skill set, that can actually be very applicable musically.
the song "Time" by Mr 4 brains himself "Thomas Lang" is a great exemple of the need to use doubles and singles in a song. as he uses multiple pedals for different tools. he also has a double bass part in it.
Diddles on bassdrum can be usefull to keep the leading foot in lead. From the top of my head I can say that "Warrior" from Disturbed features such a line, where the bassdrum goes through with a 16th line which diddles in tripletts from time to time. if you do that by singles you switch your leading foot all the time which is (imo) harder than learning the diddles.
Hey Adam, I sold my direct drive after an enthusiastic investment (and I’m fairly proficient in a double pedal) the DD was fantastic for maintaining any form of single stroke speedy ankle motions. I could play 200bpm “easier” than on a chain pedal. however there was a major experience change with slower tempo’s. much like you, controlled double strokes, with 1 foot felt awkward, jerky, and less power. I thought it was just me. Then I played on a double chain drive Dixon, old red cam eliminator and DW 9000. All of which I was much more comfortable on after a compare-contrast. I think DD’s are beautiful and would like to give it another shot but… just my subjective experience.
When I switched to direct drive after years of playing chain, I loved the immediacy of the action that came with it but had huge difficulty with something about the feel. Using trick pedals, I swapped from longboard to short board, and there was the problem for me! I'm just not a longboard player. Maybe that's some of the feeling you're dealing with?
And I agree with everything regarding your rudiment argument. Double strokes mainly come into play in extreme metal when it provides an extremely efficient means to speed. Even then, aside from punctuating the end of a phrase with a single stroke, I can't think of any music I've heard aside from more novelty stuff where more complex rudiments are implemented in the feet
Imo double strokes on the feet is probably the only argument to have as far as playing in a band setting. Thomas Lang does CRAZY things with rudiments but he's def from a different planet!
After playing chain drive for about 20yrs i bought a direct drive, a couple years ago, for my at home practice set. Hated it at first(still do a little) but adjusting the throw of the beater and the weight helped tremendously. Chain drive is almost playable out of the box. Direct drive is fine tuning a racecar. Just my thoughts.
Your db is progressing pretty smoothly and quickly. I'm pretty sure in a few months you'll pass me up!
Best sounding snare on the planet
Maybe in the future could you talk about different double bass techniques? Like ankle motion, swivel and heel-toe and tell us what you think about them in a teacher's point of view.
Can’t remember his name but the legend drummer from Deff Leopard 🤘
Have you modified what you are listening to? I wonder, since you are starting basically from the beginning with double bass, have you gone back and listened to music that highlited the evolution of double bass? From say the early 80s on thru the 2000s? What about drummers outside of your genre in regards to how they use DB? As for diddles/doubles on the kick, is there any benefit of using them solely for stamina, endurance, and to gain control of the left foot? Most single pedal players will use doubles on their main foot yes? What about for muscle development? Im enjoying this series as I am considering a deep dive back into double pedal playing.
I really think the only advantage of having diddles on double bass would be for when you have to swap to a different pedal (say you have a left and right hihat make that transition by keeping constant on one and switch to the other
So I’ve been playing drums with double kick patters for about 13 years now, and for a good chunk of that I used the pearl Demon driver, in 2019 I went back to chain drive with the DW 9000’s and for me the main difference was power, I got a lot more power from the chain drives, but feeling, speed or anything else was pretty much the same it’s all personal preference in my opinion when it comes to chain or direct drive. And an album with possibilities for rudiments on the feet is Thomas Lang’s Progpop album or a st0rk album. I will say that progpop is a little bit of a stretch, just because Thomas has so many other sounds on the feet to where he does incorporate full rudiments.
What snare are you using? Sounds really good
I took the right beater off for a while and practiced left footed.
I think you’re totally right with the idea of not using rudiments on double bass. With one exception, if you’re using heel-toe technique you can play really fast patterns using double stoke witch will require good double stroke roll rudiment and when you’re playing straight 16 notes and want to blend some 32 notes with heel-toe will require confident switching between single and double stroke.
As for herta rudiment I can’t imagine how can you play in at fast speed like in Meshuggah - Bleed without using double stroke on your right foot. So basically I think you’re right about rudiments on feet,except if you’re not using heel-toe)
The one thing that always helped me with my left foot, is to follow my right. Also play to music it will keep you entertained, just add cool double bass to pop songs. So let it flow with the music don’t force it.
Dan Presland, formerly of Ne Obliviscaris, plays with a setup that has a double kick with two hi-hats. I think I remember seeing some diddles in the footwork of some of his playthroughs, but it's been so long I can't say definitively. But, in his case diddles with the feet for mobility would make sense.
For just straight up double strokes and no combinations into single strokes or trying to create rduiments with the feet, a lot of modern deathcore and death metal drummers do double strokes. However, that's mainly seen when they do insane tempos or are generally pushing above 240 bpm. Some guys I can think of are Riccardo Merlini, Austin Archey, Bryce Butler, & Brandon Zackey. Some buddies that I've talked to about using double strokes mention how its kind of an easy/lazy way that involves less movement. However, there arw downsides to how it sounds.
Using the idea of the diddle enable the non-diddle to move… one can state that the diddle would enable a foot to move, if you had additional pedals for additional bass drums or other hardware.
Please release Ur practicing clips cos it will help alot of us out, u need to check out Thomas Lang he does paradidlls on the feet and they sound awesome, also RR L R LL R L really helped me out practicing heel toe and play bleed by meshuga
Deathcore drummers like Austin Archey (Lorna Shore) and Evgeny Novikov (Slaughter to Prevail) often use double strokes on their kicks, utilizing heel toe technique, in order to play faster on the kick drum. so although this doesn't alternate with singles and diddles, it is a double stroke roll (technicly)
To this day I think Chris Turner using a flam on the double bass for hansa is pretty neat
In terms of more modern metal music, you don't hear drummers talk or do rudiments on the bass drum. They could alternate between the hands and feet within the rudiment. There are drummers out there that do the heel toe method, which makes them do doubles on their feet. Most drummers do single strokes and change the subdivision, or even switch between the left and right foot to lead with the bass drum. There are great drummers on UA-cam that you could talk to about double bass drumming, like Craig Reynolds, Alex Rudinger, or Anup Sastry
Maybe a bit of reverse-perspective as someone chasing speed. I played chain (Speed Cobras) for years and developed ankle technique pretty far before swapping them to direct drive with an upgrade kit. The default settings were basically unplayable for my chain-based technique and it took finding settings that mimicked the chain feel to be able to use it at all--like you mention it felt rather pointless. Despite that, after a week of playing on them I found my limits were expanded. Imo direct drive as an absolute min-max type system, you can push the pedal to further extremes in feel and response than possible with chain (reasons relating to my previous comment--thanks for the feature!), but it's also easier to hinder yourself if you don't know your preferences or how to set the pedal to your needs. If you have the ability to try a chain double pedal then you're only furthering your knowledge of preference, and if you want my opinion direct drive might be more trouble than it's worth for your learning process and goals. Great vid as always!
Hey I also just noticed your left foot was moving up and down the pedal, this can make playing longer and faster double bass runs a lot harder. Just something to pay attention to
Super group Planet X , album "Universe" , track "Dog Boots" , Virgil Donati on drums . Double stroke roll on bass drum throughout the entire composition !!!
Hey, Adam, good take on the rudiment stuff although I want to provide one suggestion below. I have been myself trying to play double bass in my casual drumming for a while now and for the purposes that I need, 130bpm 16th single strokes works for me so far. I am aware, however, that a lot of high speed drummer utilize double strokes. I don't know how that works, I don't know how it is learned, but it is there.
As for the applicability of rudiments in double bass practice I think the topic of discussion should be control, rather than dynamics and mobility. Here is what I think- you addressed a really nice practice method in a previous video that you called the "mimicry game" I believe. You should be able to utilize rudiments that switch between right foot lead and left foot lead, ultimately turing it into a mimicry game. I would expect that having to do the diddles with the left foot will help develop left foot control. Paradiddles could be great for this. I would definitely try it out for myself as soon as I set up my drums again soon.
It is fun following your journey and it gives me hope that even experienced professionals sometimes struggle with the same stuff that I do, which just emphasizes that practice, focus and discipline are key.
Cheers and good luck!
Thanks for the kind words my friend!
Respectfully, you'll have to flesh out a definition of "control" to make that argument, as I did with both "dynamics" and "mobility." What precisely are we controlling? How exactly are we controlling it? How much do we need to control it? How are you measuring control? What happens if we don't control it? When do I need the most control?
My point being... control is vague a word that's thrown around a LOT in musical circles. It's like the fitness industry with the word "core". It means everything and nothing at the same time in the absence of precise language.
The mimicry game is excellent for exposing the left foot's weaknesses, but ensuring that my left and right foot are identical in skill set is not a goal that I have. Same with hands: I don't need my left and right hand to by technically matched, skill for skill. Though there are certainly more arguments for doing so on the hands, it's still not a common pursuit.
Just like the moller technique helps get more notes out of a single arm motion. Diddles with the feet using the same approach saves energy and gives efficiency when playing fast. That being said, I don’t believe that playing rudiments with the feet is important but having those diddles down always come in handy. Pantera’s Becoming double bass pattern has well, not a rudimental pattern as so with the feet, its a 16note pattern adding a few diddles. This facilitates playing the groove as opposed to all singles.
Check out Sean Reinert hitting the hi hat and slave pedal at the same time w his left foot and leading left
Things sound good and you can definitely hear the progression over the last couple of weeks. I had a feeling you were going to be working on a project with Nick. That's a good project to get an opportunity to be working on.
To the point of rudiments and suggesting them. It was something being passed around by a couple of online drummers 3-4 years ago. I picked up on it and just began to work on training my left foot. I can't help but think that for any one to just even have a regimen of doing something for a few minutes wouldn't help advance some level of muscle memory. I don't think anyone wants to roll perfect rudiments off their feet for an hour straight. That's taking a suggestion and making it sound like it was a must-do or else idea. No. Let's be realistic! Give it a 30 - 40 second go at it to get your feet moving and start playing some drums. Boom, both feet are warmed up, you connected them to your brain, now for the fun to begin.
I have played guitar my whole life. I started at age 5. However, I wanted to play drums as a kid but the parents weren't having it. Fast forward to the late 90's and I was living on my own and in a place where I could finally buy a kit. '69 Ludwig 20, 14, 12 - in Ruby Red Strata with a steel Mapex 8 lug. Didn't know a damn thing but I was bound to learn as I was drum tech for a local metal band.
Admittedly, very broken and poorly structured practice schedule and I didn't learn anything. Zero discipline and I was still very focused on guitar at the time. I lost that kit in an unfortunate situation where it was sold out from under me after I had moved to another town just 45 minutes away. Our singer had a drug problem and my vintage Ludwig kit became collateral.
Fast forward to 2017 when I finally broke down and ordered an Alesis Surge from Guitar Center and threw down the money for a Gibraltar Something-or-other antique double pedal. For months, I struggled through learning anything. It was beyond frustrating. At some point, I decided to look at GC's used section and found a chain drive Pearl double pedal. Finally, progress was in my hands. In the meantime, I picked up a Ludwig all-birch kit. Sweet, I had an acoustic kit again! I spent months just trying to gain ground with the left foot. And then I started watching a few videos by Thomas Lang and a couple other guys who were probably just repeating what he was saying. Practicing them on the feet was a good way to build muscle memory, for all it's worth. Not knowing anything I decided to start working on it. It took quite a while to get through the basics but I felt good being able to alternate triplets LRL RLR LRL RLR, leading with the opposite foot each time.
Once I had a little bit of ground work, but still a very weak left foot, I start trying to do three strokes per foot. Two strokes, singles, etc. I began my double bass playing by learning rudiments on my feet. It was hard as fuck. But I got somewhat proficient at them. That's not to say I go that hard. I'm soon to be 53 years old, well within my weight range, and very fit. I can still throw down and do. I'm also not Sebastian Lanser or Kevin Paradis, nor, do I ever intend to get to that level. I just learned a few rudiments on both of my feet a crucial time when I felt it would be good to know. I felt like it helped me. I feel like it's still a good thing to work on sometimes just to see where my left foot is at.
Sometime in mid 2020 is when came across Nick and what he was doing on Twitch. I had already been listening to Night Verses at that point for a few years and was really psyched to see Nick write on his own. Just to even interact and be a part of that atmosphere was very connecting at the time. I began to dig in on Nick's stuff because it felt like it was a place to finally ground out with my playing. An actual goal: learn songs! Instead of playing along with endless loops on a variety of drum apps. I had tried writing drum parts and laying down drum tracks to my own guitar work I've recorded over the years. But it lacked the challenge that playing along with Nick's material provided.
I felt like after having all the practice time and basic skill set at my disposal, I could start working on Nick's stuff because it felt like he was writing the drum parts I'd actually like to play as being written along to the music I definitely enjoy listening to. Dude writes the soundtrack to my life, honestly. He's a brilliant minded person with whom I'm glad to have been acquainted. That said I've work pretty much full time as an electrician over the last 9 years, just had a parent die, and have now relocated half way across the country to be caregiver for my elderly mother.
I still practice rudiments for a few seconds when I sit down at the kit. It morphs into a warmup. Feet first, then hands, then the whole kit. It just feels natural and like it helps. I'm no Pro Drummer Learning Double Bass on UA-cam. I'm just a guy who plays drums along with Nick DePirro's shit that happened to learn rudiments on the feet right when he was starting. I've had broken ankles and dislocated bones in my feet, shit, I just broke the ball of my right foot about 3 months ago. That's taken forever to finally heal enough to feel like those Bonham triplets on the right foot are second nature again. That said, I don't know of too many guys who wouldn't like to be able to play those on the left foot. Is it necessary? Is ANY of it necessary? No. But, for the pure sake of fun or just saying to yourself that you managed to pull *that* off for a few seconds, is just fine.
Do I plan on meeting Nick in Nashville to ever record something? I'll never see that opportunity. I'll just get to watch some guy on UA-cam tell me how cool it was to have been there. Sorry for the life story but you said at the end that you appreciate long winded conversations that cover the ground of the topic. I see and hear your very valid points loud and clear. I will state again that, like doing single strokes for 38 minutes straight, there's no point. And, truthfully, if someone spent even a single day working on them and moved on, the things you gain from doing that one exercise cannot be discounted.
Ah, just in case you do actually read this, my current setup is a PDP Classic Maple 7 piece with the 12" taken out. Ddrum Quicksilver Double Pedal, Ludwig Atlas hardware all around, and topped off with Istanbul Agop. I love that Ddrum pedal. I contacted them last year about the bearings having deteriorated and I was seeing play the main shaft. They sent a kit to replace the shaft and bearings with no questions asked. Great customer service and a very good pedal for the price.
I have appreciated this series and it's good to see the humility of mistakes being made. Especially right at that point when you think you've got it! I feel every one of those. It's also great to see the progress being made. I feel every bit of that, too.
I liked what you did with "Wet Texan." It will be cool to see what comes out of another session with Nick.
Thanks again, Adam.
Take care and see you on the next one.
Mark
I’m relatively experienced with double bass and pedals, so here is my advice/opinion:
Get yourself a set of chain driven pedals and see for yourself how it feels.
Direct drive pedals for me worked great if I had to go for bursts and long runs but I had little control over dynamics.
I play chain driven pedals now.
Feel and control win for me over speed.
Speaking from my experience with the double pedal:
For the uncomfortable feeling you get when you switch your foot over to the double pedal, I think it's mainly to do with you not being comfortable enough (yet) to play some of the patterns/rhythms on the double pedal. Think of it like going from your comfort zone to something you only recently started doing, Your brain is still trying to get used to the left foot being used that much and it has to concentrate a bit more on it. It's something that I worked on by just endlessly playing 16ths, hertas, triplets etc. and improvising over it, sort of similar to how you did it, it just takes a fair bit of time. I've gotten to the point where I feel a bit uncomfortable going to the hi-hat instead of it being on the double pedal.
As for rudiments, I do agree with your points. However, I'd say: work on dynamics with the double pedal, at least straight 16ths. Going from quiet to loud or immediately switching to a certain volume, it helps a fair bit with your control. However, this is could go into it being as an advanced/elite technique that you generally won't need and I don't recall hearing it ever in music, even as a die-hard metal fan.
Loving the series so far, interested with keeping up.
So for me at least, the rudiments just come down to a “feel” thing. For example I feel more comfortable feel wise and more solid with clicks using doubles at slower tempo 8th notes. This probably is some kind of technique deficiency I have, but I feel awkward at slow tempos alternating feet. I only have success when I lift my legs up very high for those single strokes. And sometimes the quality of the notes are affected. So I found at certain tempos, that doubles work better for me. To me, that would be the main benefit of rudiments on the feet. To have options to optimize comfort. Kinda like crashing with a left hand when we were brand new drummers. It just didn’t feel right. Implement a double with the left hand and “boom” on that crash with your right hand. Options. Sounding great man!
Hey man, new subscriber here. For the left foot issue, use an ankle weight of 2.5kg and lift the right foot and play 8th notes. Go up 10BPM every 2 minutes 😊this exercise helped me a lot to resolve the issue.
I was wondering when someone was gonna mention the ankle weights for learning the double. Cause that's how i learned way back when, and developed stamina for it.
I think the rudiments issues is null and void. It does matter doing double hits helps your other foot get ready but don’t worry about dynamics just the sticking. You’re copping out. Also this will help you the most.
Adam, on my UA-cam page I’ve got 3 short clips. Each I’m play single paradiddle under a Sly & The Family Stone snare riff from the song “You Can Make It If You Try”. Last clip is a drag-a-diddle. 2nd clip left foot is on left hip hat, 3rd clip both feet on hi hat foot plate. It can be done. I use heel & toe & an Axis direct drive symmetrical pedal (custom made). Rudiments are quite easy especially the double stroke & easy to play backwards…
Loving your series! Truly inspiring indeed!
I play a Demon Drive and I actually switched the cams on it out for strap cams. It looks like you can fit any eliminator cam onto the demon drive (the hexagonal shaft fits all of them).
So you can switch from direct to chain on the very same pedal instead of just chasing the feel if that's something you wanna try.
Though I can't say if that's true for the XRs. All the parts certainly look the same though!
Maybe you could even fit your old Redline Cams straight on there!
I switched back to direct drive though, because I am also an adult, apparently.
Very interesting, will look more into this!
@@AdamTuminaro
I dug up two old photos of the parts used and the mod but everytime I try to post the link in a reply, it gets deleted or something.
If you want, I can send them to you some other way.
@@bernhardhenkes UA-cam does not allow external links. You’re welcome to send them on Instagram. - @insta_chops
Sorry I don't have insta, can I send them to your e-mail? god I feel old @@AdamTuminaro
@@bernhardhenkes Adam@OrlandoDrummer.com
That groove at 8:35 almost sounds like the start of Caught In A Web by Dream Theater 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻
Becoming by Pantera. The only song that comes to mind with a diddle style bass drum pattern.
Ive tried to alternate it, but this was the only way it sounded right.
RL RRL RL RRL RL RRL R
The direct drive is much quicker and linear, the chain drive is much more mechanical feeling and makes you aware of your technique, in my experience with both. I do play metal but I have a very heavy foot and even my swivel and ankle techniques are very heavy (just recorded a song with segments that had 16th note triplets at 140 bpm and you can hear how hard I am whacking them) so I prefer a chain drive. If you have a lighter pop/jazz/metal touch, direct drives are king; if you have a heavy blues/rock/funk touch, chain drives will deliver.