These guys are less than a meter apart….i know it’s a sterile cockpit, but discussing who has control over the aircraft seems like an important conversation to have….no? This type of incident is unacceptable and inexcusable. Fortunately no one was injured or loss of life.
Just said that…First thing captain needed to say, after asking the 1St officer, ‘What are ya doing’, is to say, ‘I have the airplane’…..sounds like really crappy ‘crew coordination’…
Been flying this plane for over 12 years ( more than 10 000 hours on 777 ) , never heard or experienced anything about flight controls problem on this plane ever…this is the most easy and beautiful plane I’ve ever had to fly all along my career so far..as one of you already did comment, AF pilots have a huge ego with over confidence, the company has its responsibility by keep telling them that they are the best pilots of the world in the best company of the universe…instead of polishing their image they should polish their skills… Just get rid of your egos and toxic ideas that have no place in a cockpit..stay humble, always be ready…it’s easy for everyone to fly a plane with A/P when everything goes smooth and fine, but the fundamental of our job and what makes us different from a machine is our “human consciousness and skills” , we should always be ready to take over control at any time..( go back to basics if you loose your situational awareness…identify the problem, analyse and process it, Navigate ( who’s flying ? ) & communicate…situational awareness.. you’re in charge of your lives and people’s lives… this is no game…
There Could be different reasons, most of them here shall be human factors, like the fatigue combined with tunnel effect, lack of crew communication, not mentally prepared for a task…lost of situational awareness…etc..
I am thankful the aircraft landed safely. As a non-pilot, let me ask: Could this have been avoided if the Captain responded to the initial problem with "My Controls!"?
Was thinking the same thing. I was waiting to hear one of them say "my aircraft" at some point but neither did. Also appears to be a plane with a yoke between the legs rather than a side-stick, so was also surprised neither one saw the other also attempting to manipulate the controls and THEN call out "my aircraft." Bizarre. Reminds me of the other French flight where first officer Bonehead spent the entire disaster pulling back on the side-stick and neither of them could figure out why the plane was stalling. =/
The pilots were definitely NOT communicating with each other. Pilot error seems the only plausible cause. I cannot even imagine what the passengers (if they were awake) were going through seeing the ground coming up at them and the seemingly recklessness of the flight. Thank God the pilots regained control and landed safely. TFC, another stellar video…y’all are the best out there!!
Fact: For anybody wondering what that alarm is at 09:27, that is for master warning, configuration, or overspeed. You can also hear it in the 747-400. In a more specific detail than that provided in this video, the master warning sounds because the flaps are not retracted and the aircraft is too close to the ground with the gear up. Basically, it's in a weird configuration. On older planes, you'd hear "too low, gear".
By the way why did they not disengage auto-throttle? Because a nose down input would increase the speed of the aircraft thereby aggravating the bank angle. Moreover, the co-pilots input of pitch up would have stalled the plane, thereby reducing the bank angle but pushing them into a bigger problem. Why did they not disengage the auto-throttle? They were getting way too much thrust!! Somebody please explain
Fact: He mentioned this in the video, so no need to comment on it. He stated that it was configuration warning, displaying arrows pointing to it. "Because the flaps are not retracted the configuration warning is displayed, and the associated aural warning begins to sound."
When receiving conflicting inputs from the two pilots, a really smart computer should be empowered to ask, in big, red letters and a booming voice, "Which one of you jokers is supposed to be flying this crate?"
Made me remember AF447. That accident happened because the pilots were "fighting" each other, giving different inputs to the plane that the other pilot were unaware of. Thankfully this flight landed safely, but suffered from the same problem in that regard. Is this somewhat common in crisis situations, or is something wrong with AF's training when it comes to this?
There is something wrong with the French way of thinking... it's a joke obviously, but it happens too often. English people is good at resolve problems. French people is good at playing the part of "private S.N.A.F.U".
Not just AF, but French aviation in general seems to have a lot of basic safety issues. Back in May, a controller at CDG gave the wrong QNH to a Norwegian A320 and it came within 6ft of crashing.
@@rossgilman I believe that the controller only gave the wrong QNH is English. The correct setting was given in French. The use of two languages in French ATC makes situational awareness difficult for those who only know French and are listening on frequency.
I have flown a lot this past year with so many flights delayed because of reasons I believe not to be true. The real reason I believe is lack of help, pilots over worked and their flight time maxed out. I don’t want a pilot so exhausted that he or she overlooks simple flight procedures.
Pilots are suffering myocarditis from the vaccine. Some will never fly again due to stroke and heart attacks. See Steve Kirsch substack. Its happening.😥
Why did the plane bank left at all? It's almost unbelielevable that there was conflict over who was in control. One of the first things pilots learn is how to smoothly transition from captain to first officer and back again. If the cockpit voice recorder is to be believed, they never discussed who was flying. How many hours of experience did they have? Less than five? Thank God someone came to their senses. Fabulous graphics. Love the colors inside the plane and on the horizon. Better than photographic.
I'm not sure they knew what the yoke was for. Pressing the PTT switch in an emergency is not in the SOP of any airlines😂 But they had at least 7 hours of experience on the type🤣
It appears that French pilots have issues communincating effectively in the cockpit. The Air France Flight 447 crash in 2009 was mainly because the pilot and FO were not communicating and both were inputting yoke controls in oposite.
@@coriscotupi Just don't generalize about an entire airline. Air France trains their crews thoroughly. You can't always count on human beings, though. They have limitations.
@@billolsen4360 The final accident report on AF 447 specifically mentioned "Inappropriate control inputs that destabilized the flight path" and training issues. Just saying.
The initial banking to the left was the copilot's input only. But after the go around decision (best decision of the flight, BTW) the captain took the controls without announcing it. This could have been catastrophic, and almost was.
@@tensevo it was : average roll input on the co-pilot side =6° to the left according to the flight recording data. The coplitot was somewhat spatially disoriented, and maybe felt that this 6° position was the neutral
Imagine having a car with two steering wheels. One on the left and one on the right. Two people sitting next to each other 2 feet apart in a closed cabin. Then both of them frantically steering in opposite directions yet neither noticing that they are both steering in opposite directions. I don’t think fatigue is a good excuse for this type of horrendous panic behavior.
Being French myself, it most displeases me to acknowledge the fact that there are massive training issues with this company. Such basic mistakes are not tolerable. When these pilots have independent controls (AF447) they crash, when they have connected yokes, they fight each other and nearly kill 180 people on their own... What the Captain is saying to the ATC is very revelatory of the general state of mind prevailing amongst these pilots: 1st thought is always “the plane has done something wrong” instead of maybe I fucked up...
@@nightrider8908 dont lie, a total of 3 fatal incidents in half a century in one of the pioneer countries of aviation (mind u) is still pretty good. I mean if u look at united and american airlines...
This seems to be an Air France specific problem; pilots inputting opposing commands, and communication being completely non-existent. Air France needs to rectify their CRM training, or source the root of this issue if it's something else. They can't let AF447 happen again.
The captain should immediately have taken control when they both voiced surprise over the airplane's initial banking. "My aircraft" Two important words.
@@philippededeken4881 He wasn't the pilot flying, the FO was. As the captain he should have taken back control - and announce it to the FO - the moment they were both surprised by the sudden 6 degree bank angle.
I have seen this way too many times on this channel where both pilots are trying to fly the plane and going against each other. How can they not see what they are both doing? It needs to stop, idk if it's better communication training they need. But each pilot I thought was supposed to say 'My aircraft'.
It’s called "human error." Honestly, at this point, fully automating the cockpit would be much more practical and safe than allowing fallible human beings to fly planes and thus have responsibility for the lives of hundreds of people. Computers are less prone to making mistakes, are substantially better at doing linear tasks like flying, and don’t require a wage, thus saving billions of dollars, which could potentially be spent on revolutionising the way we fly.
Many years ago but back when I received my certificate it was pretty basic that only one pilot flies at a time. If the senior pilot is not flying and decides to take over, he just states "my aircraft" and you relinquish control.
"At this stage, the analysis of the parameters does not show inconsistencies, in particular between the movements of the controls and the movements of the airplane." In other words, the airplane did exactly what the captain and F/O commanded it to do via the controls. Somebody who shouldn't have had their hands on the controls almost crashed the aircraft, namely the captain who was NOT the pilot flying.
Very nerve-wracking indeed. I felt my heart rate spike dramatically as the pilots were fighting for control of the jet and avoiding a mi-air collision at the same time. Plus, the fact that I could very clearly understand the words of the flight crew and ATC with and without translations is chilling to me. As for the cause, it reeks of pilot error. Considering the plane took of at night for a transatlantic flight, I wouldn't doubt that fatigue played a role. That, and I smelled negligent communication and CRM in the approach phase. Scary stuff. Grateful that the flight landed in one piece.
I know that improper communication was the cause, but shouldn’t the plane give an alert saying they are both trying to fly it? An alert like this could have also prevented that Air France A330 crash in the Atlantic.
Air France 447 infamously crashed when the pilots were trying to fly with opposite control inputs. Particularly the inexperienced copilot who initiated the stall with confusing nose up inputs. If you read the transcript his actions prevented the other from recovering the stall. Bad weather and pitot icing did not cause this crash, the copilot did.
@@blablaglag0393 The frozen-over pitot tubes created the circumstances for the crash to happen and are definitely a contributing factor, however the plane didn’t crash directly because of the condition of the pitot tubes
@@blablaglag0393 yes pitot tubes did not cause the airplane to crash. It is the pilots response to loss of airspeed indication. Pilots reacted to it wrong. They shouldn’t do anything, experts said. The speed indication would have been normal again in few minutes.
@@blablaglag0393 The pilot in control (for most of the crash sequence) held his flight control stick back the whole time, putting the plane into a stall, and did so despite getting stall warnings. If he had just let go of the flight controls, the plane would have recovered itself. Clearly there's a massive training or cultural issue at Air France
Is anybody starting to notice a pattern with Air France pilots here? There have been three notable incidents in the past 25-35 years where Air France pilots were not able to properly handle their aircraft. The time span between these incidents doesn't really matter, as all these incidents are bad enough to make Air France look bad. Air France pilots are not bad pilots, but it just seems like they are not trained well. And, it's not just Air France pilots, there are many accidents that I know where both pilots are trying to fly the plane at the same time. It's more or less just a lack of communication problem, and as we can see in aviation, that's dangerous. *I don't see how this could have happened as they are sitting less than a 5 ft (approximately a meter) distance away from each other. This is why pilots normally discuss who is flying what leg of the flight.
Training in relationships is a recent addition. Most of the time, pilots have never met each other before the flight. They need to establish a relationship prior to takeoff.
A couple of issues: 1. First and most important is situational awareness and pilot/copilot communication. If the captain wanted to take control, he should have said, "I am now in control." Second, we've seen accidents and near misses related to improper use of the autopilot. Part of the autopilot stays on and other functions are turned off. The flight director stays on. Then the pilot flying doesn't appear to understand what the autopilot continues to do that might conflict with what he/she is doing. I will go out on a limb here and ask: In a situation where the pilot flying does not understand the plane's behavior and wants to regain control, why not turn off the autopilot completely and manually fly the plane? Take full control of the plane, intercept the ILS localizer, fly the approach, use either the ILS display or a head-up display (the newest airliners have this) to fly the glideslope to touchdown - and the n later, parked at the gate, figure out what went wrong.
One or the other pilot, in that situation, MUST declare "I have the airplane", and then you have no problem like this. Glad everyone is Okay. I hope the passengers got a voucher for a free flight or some kind of compensation. All good wishes.
The graphics and camera angles in this video are really fantastic!! I always think take offs at night feel more magical for me. The last few moments of this flight were far from that. Their CRM was non existent! Hard to believe. Another great video. Thanks TFC! 👏🖤
I have had only two hours of flight training (in the Combined Cadet Force at school). One of the very first things I was taught when entering the cockpit is to communicate “I have control”; and for the other pilot to confirm “you have control”. These are the fundamentals of flying in a multi-person cockpit. So it boggles the mind how two, presumably experienced pilots, could forget this.
Air France’s culture definitely needs to change, this isn’t the first time there has been confusion regarding who is flying the aircraft. I can’t understand why the skipper decided to just start flying it as well, very odd
John I totally agree.....CRM and SOP issues seem a very common thread in Air France accidents/incidents. Basic aircraft handling... Check out that other recent Paris incident when the AF crew couldn't fly the go around and almost has a collision with a departing aircraft. Basic airmanship and professionalism totally missing.
I am inclined to doubt that there was a net left input for so long. Even if one pilot is absentmindedly holding the control out of center; the other would have moved the control as far as needed to regain control. Dragging the control all the way to the stops takes too much force to do by accident and continuing to roll left while struggling against a left roll is an implausible error.
I dont get why people are quick to conclude that the captain would be putting a bank angle in on approach. A quick look at the telemetry will reveal whether that was the case or whether it was an uncommanded roll.
This seems familiar to another Air France incident: Air France 447. In both incidents there was a lack of CRM and there was no real picture of who was doing what. Air France really need to upgrade their CRM in response to this incident. After all, had one of the pilots said "I have control", this incident would have been avoided.
Yes, the similitudes with AF447 are clear, the strange thing is understand how this can be possible on a Boeing rather than an Airbus, considering the kind ok cloche…
Ain't these the same mistakes the AirFrance pilots made on the Air France Flight 447 Rio-Paris that crashed? Same carrier, same mistakes! Scary indeed!
@@jayfinkheys3497 Air France hadn’t trained them to handle a frozen pitot tube situation properly, despite many requests from pilots and incident reports. Many other carriers operating the A330 had faced the same issue. They trained their pilots and replaced the tubes, but Air France chose not to.
@@blackwolf1475 Sure, but the crash is a shame to be honest. Even if it can be a hard situation to deal with, crew has been very poor. Even beginners are supposed to know how to deal with a stall alarm situation for example.
hopefully there wont be any major plane crash again. and this was ridiculous fatigued or not. they completely forgot to ask or look whether the other had controls or not.
I believe that’s why so many flights are being cancelled…. There’s a tremendous lack of Pilots, and I can imagine the ones who are flying could easily suffer through exhaustion and the results could be very tragic… You make everything look so real as if we are right there in the cockpit and even outside looking at everything going on!! Love your videos!! ✈️✈️
This was NOT fatigue - this was simply TERRIBLE communication! It is ALWAYS known and discussed who has control in the cabin. This was like a 3 stooges mistake that could have ended in disaster.
My wife and I were on this flight in Premium Select sitting across from a flight attendant. When the plane began to pitch, we looked at each other knowing it wasn’t turbulence. However, at the time, I never felt we were in danger. Watching these videos tells me otherwise.
The first officer is flying the plane and for some reason he makes command inputs that deviates the plane from the approach path. The captain starts to make control inputs (good ones) that conflict with the first officer's control inputs (bad ones). The controls are mechanically connected so they are physically fighting and making so much force that they decouple the controls (a feature designed to be able to move the controls on one side if they get jammed on the other side). The captain never says "I've got controls" or "My plane" or anything of the kind, which is a very standard practice since your first flight in flight school and it is called positive transfer of control. Only one pilot must be flying the plane at a time (manipulating the flight controls). That is piloting 101.
I'm happy this turned out o.k. I was having some stress over this one. They each had their duties; captain was to monitor and do radio comms. Still, I have respect for pilots. My father used to say, "an uneventful flight" and, "hours of boredom, punctuated by moments of sheer terror." Flying needs to be flying, not monitoring systems. The less automation the better-- there's a fine line, keeping as much under the pilot's control as possible.
Excellent re-creation of a harrowing incident -- that IMHO -- did not need to happen!! Poor cockpit management by BOTH pilots. Thankfully, they were able to finally land safely. Excellent work, TFC!! 👍✈✈👍
Air France 447 had the same problem. Both pilots inputting conflicting flight controls. That flight ended tragically. In those situation with flight control conflict. Shouldn’t there be a visual and audible warning? A loud "Conflict!!" , with a visual showing two yokes turning in the opposite directions! Seems too obvious not to have such obvious warning.
Airbus screams "dual input" continuously if both sidestick are moved at the same time and a warning light flashing directly in front of both pilots. But still AF 447 still happened
@@phillm156 because the stall warning was overriding the dual input warning. Which is understandable as stall has higher priority than dual input. In 99.99% of the time a loud "dual input" is heard even if you accidentally move the sidestick a little when the other pilot is manually flying
the uncommanded roll on approach was the root cause here. Pilots resolved situation by going around. What more are you expecting they should have done given the circumstance
I'm surprised with all the computers on the plane there should be some kind of audible alarm that will sound if the yoke or joystick inputs are different/opposite
I am sure a day will come when some genius at Boeing says; "Why don't we put in an audible alarm when the plane's computer is receiving commands from both pilots at the same time?" 🤣
I have been a pilot for nearly 25 years and have been flying Airbus for over 18 years now. With a FBW aircraft, you need to state clearly who is controlling the aircraft. In this situation, the captain should have stated: "I have control" and should have taken control of the aircraft. Discipline, consistency and adherence to SOPs make flying safe. Although the 777 is not entirely FBW, I'm surprised that there is not a "DUAL INPUT" warning on this machine.
Opposing forces from each pilot would explain the reasons for the instability at go around, but the initial and sudden deviation of the 6 degree bank to the left on final is where the real mystery is, without wind shear or any reason to deviate so much. Surely the F/O wouldn't have needed to put such an input in to the aircraft when stabilised and about to land? The other issue has to be that the Captain did not announce 'my aircraft' before the de-sync of controls began. No matter how well trained you are, when your aircraft suddenly wanders off the final countdown path by 6 degrees, it's going to be a nightmare. Pilots are so used to automatic this, computer that, it's no wonder they end up so reliant on that automatic element. This is why I am wholly opposed to self driving cars. If you are on a motorway at 70 mph, and the computer decides to have a 6 degree wander in either direction, people will die. I stand by my lifetime motto of, any computer is only as good as the person that made the components for it, and the programmer who coded it. Everything will always be open to human error, and when we are responsible for lives, you are a fool to let a computer take control of that, because when it comes down to it, no computer will be going to prison for the deaths of innocents. Young people need to stop thinking technology solves everything. They do not diminish responsibility.
I agree, for now. AI technology is not ready yet. I believe pilots should be in the simulator manually flying with regular intervals. Maybe they are, I dont know. Im not a pilot. But the technology is not ready yet for full automation
Completely agree with O.P. Haven’t heard much about self driving cars lately though. The big push is to put us in electric cars….like the very first cars they invented. 🙄
It's far worse in the Airbus Planes or Scarebus as they are famously known, at least on Boeing Planes pilots still majority of the control for the time being, on Airbus Planes the computers control 90% of what the plane does.
From an Airbus pilots for what it's worth.....each side stick has a button on it that will disconnect the opposite pilot's controls after pressing for approx ten seconds. The purpose of this feature is to take over complete control from the other in an abnormal situation (such as pilot incapacitation) or otherwise. It is a deliberate feature and once activated it will sound a very LOUD aural warning "PRIORITY LEFT or PRIORITY RIGHT. Along with that there will be an arrow on the glare shield that will illuminate either red or green with the direction of who has control (it's been a while I am retired now). So there is no mistaking what is happening. This of course is a deliberate safety feature built in to the fly-by-wire system on Airbus If the pilots simultaneously apply pressure to the side sticks TOGETHER the computers take the "algebraic sum" of the inputs and mathematically determines by way of algorithms who has control but EXTREMELY scary. My takeaway from this incident suggests this happened on the B777 during subtle inputs unknowingly by inducing strong yoke inputs from both guys. If that's the case and was determined to be the cause (no other flight control faults found) would it be assumed there would be a very obvious associated warning? If anyone has Boeing experience I would be interested to know.
Simple solution.if the computers pick-up opposing inputs just have a warning go off to alert pilots . Especially if it’s happening over a sustained period
Someone else commented that the plane has a dual input alert, however it seems the plane was also stalling and the stall alarm overrides the dual input alarm. This is what I understood.
From my time flying in the late 90s I was taught the correct wording that should be said below, no shortening of the statement, the response or the confirmation. Example if Captain takes control of the aircraft from the First Officer. Captain states “I have the controls” First Officer acknowledges “You have the controls” Captain repeats in confirmation “I have the controls”
I gotta' quit watching these videos, but they're so addictive!!😉 That being said, I am glad everyone aboard survived. And I will continue to say that it takes SO much to learn how to fly a plane!
I was on this flight and didn’t feel any reason for concern (at the time). But as I continue to read articles and videos, it could have been. So much worse.
Never flew an aircraft with another pilot….seems the first thing the captain would say, ‘I have it’, control of aircraft…..he’s the one who signed for it.
I know nothing about aviation, but I thought that a pilot always calls out "my controls" or "my airplane" (and usually waits for current PF to acknowledge with "your controls") before taking over from the current PF and making inputs.
This is almost exactly what happened to AF 447, which crashed in the Atlantic because one pilot was trying to push "nose down" on HIS controls, while the other pilot was trying to pull "nose up" on HIS controls. The plane was an Airbus A330 with sidestick controls which are out of each other's line of sight. Neither pilot told the other what he was doing, and the aircraft's flight computer simply averaged out the inputs. The plane bellyflopped into the ocean like a winged anvil.
That would be a basic design question for flight-control software- when the two pilot stations provide different control inputs, what do you do? Average them out? Follow the larger one? Can each pilot feel the other's input, if any? How is this handled in a fly-by-wire aircraft with a tandem cockpit, like the latest versions of the F-15? And what do you do if a transducer in the stick or rudder pedals fails, so that it is sending out a false control signal? Is there a way to mask it out, assuming the crew recognizes the situation?
Yes, I'm surprised the plane's controller does not have an input priority system installed. When it comes to sensors / encoders etc. there is always redundancy build in. Even the accelerator paddle in a Tesla has two different position sensors from two different manufacturers fitted sending data in separate wires.
Im surprised that there isn’t any kind of warning when both pilots are making inputs on the flight controls (Airbus fly by wire aircraft have a warning for when both pilots make inputs on the flight controls, and even have a system to allow one pilot to override the inputs of the other pilot)
Guys, this is a Boeing. Not an Airbus. The controls are mechanically interlocked so they move in unison. So they were physically fighting for moving the controls as if they were both grabbing the same control. That is, until they made so much opposing force (50 lb) that they activated another design feature. The 2 controls are rigidly connected with a system that involves a pre-loaded spring. If the opposite forces exceed that of the pre-loaded spring, the 2 sides decouple and move independently (and this is what happened here). That is to be able to control the airplane in case one side is mechanically jammed. Now, to keep this "split controls" condition you need to be overcoming the spring force all the time. If you reduce the force, the spring will "win" and the controls will synch again.
For those blaming Boeing for not putting additional alarms for conflicting inputs, here's an analogy. A carmaker still makes manual cars, even though they are aware that many people don't know how to drive manual. Does that mean the carmaker should be fined for accidents caused by inexperienced manual driver stalling their cars?
I don't know the full parameters of the situation and how long these pilots were flying but I do know from first hand accounts that they are overworked and overwhelmed at times. Maybe this was just a simple case of fatigue and confusion but overall everyone was safe luckily
So the BEA put out a bogus report with inaccurate findings to save Air France and the pilots reputation and careers. Very sad and very wrong. The pilots were to blame here.
13:11 , it's said that the BEA's preleminary report states that the pilots were unaware that they were conflicting each other in controlling the plane, while finding that the plane operated normally (any solid proof that this wasn't the case ?) .
@@Capecodham BEA stands for "Bureau d'Enquetes et Analyses", which is the french organization which deals which those matters. It's mostly the same thing as NTSB in United States.
@@christophelemaire4551 I notice the producer of the video explains everything. However, some responders like to impress others with their use of acronyms or uncommon terms.
The international language of aviation is English, the cockpit command warnings were pretty clear. In most places, the pilots and air traffic controllers have demonstrated the ability to speak and understand English up to a level specified by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)...... not the French though, apparently. Sometimes being unconventional isn't worth the risk.
They can speak English but i think in many non-English speaking countries, they revert to their local language for their domestic carriers. I would say that is more common than you think.
@@jayfinkheys3497 I'm not totally sure but I imagine it would affect all of the other pilots that had to avoid this plane and it's pilots. They're not always going to be French speakers and that plane was everywhere in the sky. English would have given other non French air crew info they would have desperately needed.
I'm not a pilot, so could someone explain Why would there ever be two controls functioning at the same time? Shouldn't one override the other? Imagine a car with two steering wheels both functioning simultaneously?? What a freaking disaster that would be.
Disclaimer: I don’t know specifically about the 777. This is what I know: when you have a control column (yoke), both sides are linked together in roll and pitch. The pedals are similarly linked for yaw. In a large aircraft, each yoke controls one set of primary flight controls, the left yoke controls the left elevator and the left aileron/flaperon, and the right yoke the right control surfaces. Since the control columns are linked, when everything is normal, each side also gets to control the opposite set of primary control surfaces. And yes, the other control column moves… That’s why it’s important to know who is “driving”. In the case of a control jam, and that would be undistinguishable from the other pilot blocking the controls, either axis can usually be disconnected by applying some force to regain control. You get half the control surfaces on the axis, but at least you can fly the aircraft. Disconnection can be permanent or temporary depending on the design. Not sure this is what happened here, but 50 pounds of force sounds like it could be enough to disconnect both yokes from each other. Now the 777 is one of the first fly by wire aircraft. I have no idea how that works except Boeing wanted to keep the cockpit “normal”. There are two yokes and they are linked mechanically. I’m not sure if there’s any mechanism to warn the pilots that they have conflicting inputs: because the yokes are linked, I don’t see how that could be implemented, or how such situation could be differentiated from a control jam.
Air France seems to have a bad habit of hiring pilots who make opposite inputs cluelessly. Ridiculous that this happened after AF 447. Also, why the heck aren’t there warnings for double inputs installed on these aircraft?
I'm really surprised that commercial aircraft don't have some visual warning when both pilots are attempting to control the plane, particularly when they are making opposing inputs. A red light for instance, showing on both sides of the instrument panel somewhere. When such a light turns red, standard procedure would be for the copilot to stop. Yes, I know this is not a panacea because it could very well be the pilot who is inputting the wrong controls, but there has to be a system better than two people both forgetting to call out, "My plane!"
Gosh- I flew this flight a few years before the incident, interesting to see this one. Sounds like poor CRM maybe, if neither pilot knew what the other was doing. I am not clear why the Captain was making control inputs if he was meant to be monitoring and the FO flying?
Thank you for uploading these kind of videos based on true event. Scary or not, in some way, these kind of videos help reduce my fear of flying. Thanks a lot TheFlightChannel!
Heureusement que tout s'est bien terminé, parce que en plus la trajectoire qu'il prennait ça aurait fait des dégâts un gros porteurs qui se crash en pleine région parisienne comme ça, j'ose même pas imaginer.. merci aux pilotes malgré tout 🤞
The first thing the PIC has to do is to say "My airplane" or "My controls". Like in some other cases we see before, the PIC also here doesn´t do it. That has lead to much more problems because both pilots were trying to recover the aircraft.
Good grief how did they certify to fly in the first place? “My controls” is a basic practice, and how did neither pilot not realize they were both fighting with the controls?
Air disasters tv show once had an installment where a DC-10 I think, lost all engines at 50,000ft and managed to glide to a safe landing in a park that was once an airport. Anyone else remember this? It would be cool to see the flight channel re enact that one.
Yes, that was an Air Canada flight, not a DC10, but a Boing 767 that lost all engines because at that time in Canada they were changing from pounds to metric , an error was made in calculating the amount of fuel to be put on board. Also no aircraft flies at 50,000 feet, usually between 35,000 to maybe 40,000. The aircraft did glide into a disaffected airport, in the Winnipeg area of Canada. The captain or first officer was a glider pilot with a lot of experience. This was a flight that had the hands of God on it as no other flight crew in the simulator were able to land it, they have all crashed it. At the time I was an Air Canada flight attendant, and knew all of the crew that was on board. Some did not return to flight duties due to the immense stress they had gone threw, the pilots , bless them, continued to fly, but were not at the beginning recognized for the miracle they achieved. (The only aircraft at the time that flew near to 50,000 feet was the Concorde.)
I'm curious about the initial left banking. Even if both pilots were giving inputs, wouldn't they just be "small" ones to keep the plane on the correct glide? What/Who caused it to go so much left?
Same here. Everyone keeps slating off the pilots but not a single expert in this comment section can provide a reasonable analysis for the sudden and persistent bank. Can only suspect one of them must’ve been suicidal.
![The Complete Story of Destiny! From origins to Shadowkeep [Timeline and Lore explained]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9mbDXvDNqTU/mqdefault.jpg)
These guys are less than a meter apart….i know it’s a sterile cockpit, but discussing who has control over the aircraft seems like an important conversation to have….no? This type of incident is unacceptable and inexcusable. Fortunately no one was injured or loss of life.
Just said that…First thing captain needed to say, after asking the 1St officer, ‘What are ya doing’, is to say, ‘I have the airplane’…..sounds like really crappy ‘crew coordination’…
This must be the 30th incident I've seen where the pilots are not clear who is flying the plane. How TF is that possible!?!?
The Captain should call out 'my aircraft' before taking, or in this case, attempting to take the controls from the F/O.
It’s impossible to believe that neither pilot became aware of what was going on. Sterile cockpit? More like Stupid cockpit!
And they were both sterile to boot.
Been flying this plane for over 12 years ( more than 10 000 hours on 777 ) , never heard or experienced anything about flight controls problem on this plane ever…this is the most easy and beautiful plane I’ve ever had to fly all along my career so far..as one of you already did comment, AF pilots have a huge ego with over confidence, the company has its responsibility by keep telling them that they are the best pilots of the world in the best company of the universe…instead of polishing their image they should polish their skills… Just get rid of your egos and toxic ideas that have no place in a cockpit..stay humble, always be ready…it’s easy for everyone to fly a plane with A/P when everything goes smooth and fine, but the fundamental of our job and what makes us different from a machine is our “human consciousness and skills” , we should always be ready to take over control at any time..( go back to basics if you loose your situational awareness…identify the problem, analyse and process it, Navigate ( who’s flying ? ) & communicate…situational awareness.. you’re in charge of your lives and people’s lives… this is no game…
Can you let me know all of the upcoming flights you have so I can only fly on your flights! Lololol
International ATC language is English - the fact that they speak French is already a big no no for me...
@@singerAR0406 😉thank you that’s sweet 🙏
There Could be different reasons, most of them here shall be human factors, like the fatigue combined with tunnel effect, lack of crew communication, not mentally prepared for a task…lost of situational awareness…etc..
The triple 7 is the closest plane that flies itself.
Crew resource management is still an issue in this day and age and at a major carrier like Air France? Scary.
the French are snooty
@@microwavedsoda Well that really helps the discussion!
@@microwavedsoda not as much as you for sure
@@microwavedsoda The root cause is the american Boeing.
THought they would learn something with AF447 crash.
I am thankful the aircraft landed safely. As a non-pilot, let me ask: Could this have been avoided if the Captain responded to the initial problem with "My Controls!"?
Probably
Yes!
Was thinking the same thing. I was waiting to hear one of them say "my aircraft" at some point but neither did. Also appears to be a plane with a yoke between the legs rather than a side-stick, so was also surprised neither one saw the other also attempting to manipulate the controls and THEN call out "my aircraft."
Bizarre. Reminds me of the other French flight where first officer Bonehead spent the entire disaster pulling back on the side-stick and neither of them could figure out why the plane was stalling. =/
They were speaking French, so it probably needed a dozen words to say "my controls" ;-)
@@Aethelhald Will re-consider ever flying Air France. I mean, they're sitting right next to each other...
The pilots were definitely NOT communicating with each other. Pilot error seems the only plausible cause. I cannot even imagine what the passengers (if they were awake) were going through seeing the ground coming up at them and the seemingly recklessness of the flight. Thank God the pilots regained control and landed safely. TFC, another stellar video…y’all are the best out there!!
They weren't communicating because they were playing chicken - just another murder-suicide attempt by the world's pilots.
The passengers encountered probably 2G while the plane was at 13° at max engine power.
I wonder how many of them decided this was the last flight they would ever take in their life.
@@x77Flip77x At least with AF.
The nose was pitched up the whole time. How was the ground coming up at them?
Fact: For anybody wondering what that alarm is at 09:27, that is for master warning, configuration, or overspeed. You can also hear it in the 747-400. In a more specific detail than that provided in this video, the master warning sounds because the flaps are not retracted and the aircraft is too close to the ground with the gear up. Basically, it's in a weird configuration. On older planes, you'd hear "too low, gear".
@Greglinski Rude! I for one am always interested in any information others can provide. If you're not, learn manners and keep it to yourself.
Actually it’s the master warning, not the master caution.
By the way why did they not disengage auto-throttle? Because a nose down input would increase the speed of the aircraft thereby aggravating the bank angle. Moreover, the co-pilots input of pitch up would have stalled the plane, thereby reducing the bank angle but pushing them into a bigger problem. Why did they not disengage the auto-throttle? They were getting way too much thrust!!
Somebody please explain
@Greglinski Oooh! So it was broken. okay okay got it now👍🏻
Fact: He mentioned this in the video, so no need to comment on it. He stated that it was configuration warning, displaying arrows pointing to it.
"Because the flaps are not retracted the configuration warning is displayed, and the associated aural warning begins to sound."
When receiving conflicting inputs from the two pilots, a really smart computer should be empowered to ask, in big, red letters and a booming voice, "Which one of you jokers is supposed to be flying this crate?"
Or maybe “get off instagram and communicate with each other”
Made me remember AF447. That accident happened because the pilots were "fighting" each other, giving different inputs to the plane that the other pilot were unaware of. Thankfully this flight landed safely, but suffered from the same problem in that regard. Is this somewhat common in crisis situations, or is something wrong with AF's training when it comes to this?
There is something wrong with the French way of thinking... it's a joke obviously, but it happens too often. English people is good at resolve problems. French people is good at playing the part of "private S.N.A.F.U".
They crashed because they had no idea how to fly the plane due to extreme over reliance on automation
@@MrMarcec85 agree. Maybe they classes were in english and they didn't understand them at full
Not just AF, but French aviation in general seems to have a lot of basic safety issues. Back in May, a controller at CDG gave the wrong QNH to a Norwegian A320 and it came within 6ft of crashing.
@@rossgilman I believe that the controller only gave the wrong QNH is English. The correct setting was given in French. The use of two languages in French ATC makes situational awareness difficult for those who only know French and are listening on frequency.
I have flown a lot this past year with so many flights delayed because of reasons I believe not to be true. The real reason I believe is lack of help, pilots over worked and their flight time maxed out. I don’t want a pilot so exhausted that he or she overlooks simple flight procedures.
Pilots are suffering myocarditis from the vaccine. Some will never fly again due to stroke and heart attacks. See Steve Kirsch substack. Its happening.😥
... You mean, like ... retracting the landing gear and flaps on a go-around?
where did you get the idea they were exhausted? The aircraft had an uncommanded roll on approach that they had to both deal with.
@@tensevo I guess you missed the part about an overnight (red eye) international flight across the Atlantic Ocean? 🙄
they are a very complicated machine and things where out
Why did the plane bank left at all? It's almost unbelielevable that there was conflict over who was in control. One of the first things pilots learn is how to smoothly transition from captain to first officer and back again. If the cockpit voice recorder is to be believed, they never discussed who was flying. How many hours of experience did they have? Less than five? Thank God someone came to their senses.
Fabulous graphics. Love the colors inside the plane and on the horizon. Better than photographic.
I'm not sure they knew what the yoke was for. Pressing the PTT switch in an emergency is not in the SOP of any airlines😂 But they had at least 7 hours of experience on the type🤣
Everything is detailed in the video. You failed to understand anything.
@@philippededeken4881 I don’t think you’re anything but an AI bot. Cute fake name.
...Us Air, Sully says "my airplane" when he knew they were in deep trouble, Skiles says "your airplane" it's that simple Frenchies...
@@wokewokerman5280 Exactly. Basic training.
It appears that French pilots have issues communincating effectively in the cockpit. The Air France Flight 447 crash in 2009 was mainly because the pilot and FO were not communicating and both were inputting yoke controls in oposite.
Yeah, that's just how Air France became one of the world's most popular airlines - their pilots have issues communicating effectively in the cockpit.
@@billolsen4360 It has nothing to do with being popular, but crashing airplanes for lack of proper training.
@@coriscotupi Just don't generalize about an entire airline. Air France trains their crews thoroughly. You can't always count on human beings, though. They have limitations.
@@billolsen4360 The final accident report on AF 447 specifically mentioned "Inappropriate control inputs that destabilized the flight path" and training issues. Just saying.
There was a lack of proper CRM training.
The initial banking to the left was the copilot's input only. But after the go around decision (best decision of the flight, BTW) the captain took the controls without announcing it. This could have been catastrophic, and almost was.
The uncommanded bank was not a pilot input.
@@tensevo it was : average roll input on the co-pilot side =6° to the left according to the flight recording data. The coplitot was somewhat spatially disoriented, and maybe felt that this 6° position was the neutral
Imagine having a car with two steering wheels. One on the left and one on the right. Two people sitting next to each other 2 feet apart in a closed cabin. Then both of them frantically steering in opposite directions yet neither noticing that they are both steering in opposite directions. I don’t think fatigue is a good excuse for this type of horrendous panic behavior.
Dozing off can cause this behavior.
Being French myself, it most displeases me to acknowledge the fact that there are massive training issues with this company. Such basic mistakes are not tolerable. When these pilots have independent controls (AF447) they crash, when they have connected yokes, they fight each other and nearly kill 180 people on their own... What the Captain is saying to the ATC is very revelatory of the general state of mind prevailing amongst these pilots: 1st thought is always “the plane has done something wrong” instead of maybe I fucked up...
That's very french to be a bit over confident over himself and his crew
Air France, also known as Air Chance, has a poor safety record for a major western airline.
@@nightrider8908 They operate many flights the ratio is actually quite good
Perfect analysis of cultural influence on work.
@@nightrider8908 dont lie, a total of 3 fatal incidents in half a century in one of the pioneer countries of aviation (mind u) is still pretty good.
I mean if u look at united and american airlines...
This seems to be an Air France specific problem; pilots inputting opposing commands, and communication being completely non-existent. Air France needs to rectify their CRM training, or source the root of this issue if it's something else. They can't let AF447 happen again.
Hopefully these issues didn't spill over to KLM
The attention to detail and animation are simply amazing! I can’t imagine how much time and effort it takes to produce a video of this quality
The captain should immediately have taken control when they both voiced surprise over the airplane's initial banking. "My aircraft" Two important words.
And repeat it every 5 minutes? the plane was already his.
@@philippededeken4881 He wasn't the pilot flying, the FO was. As the captain he should have taken back control - and announce it to the FO - the moment they were both surprised by the sudden 6 degree bank angle.
If he told the first officer to surrender, the first officer would have immediately stopped as the French understand surrender very well.
You tell em!
Absolutely well done on the constant camera angle update, gives a much greater perspective of what 's happening
I have seen this way too many times on this channel where both pilots are trying to fly the plane and going against each other. How can they not see what they are both doing? It needs to stop, idk if it's better communication training they need. But each pilot I thought was supposed to say 'My aircraft'.
They are French....I think that explains it.
They were troubleshooting an american saucepan.
@@RLTtizME what’s that supposed to mean?
It’s called "human error." Honestly, at this point, fully automating the cockpit would be much more practical and safe than allowing fallible human beings to fly planes and thus have responsibility for the lives of hundreds of people. Computers are less prone to making mistakes, are substantially better at doing linear tasks like flying, and don’t require a wage, thus saving billions of dollars, which could potentially be spent on revolutionising the way we fly.
@@jakecommonty2042 At the end of the day, the responsability is always carried by a human, dummy!
Many years ago but back when I received my certificate it was pretty basic that only one pilot flies at a time. If the senior pilot is not flying and decides to take over, he just states "my aircraft" and you relinquish control.
But you have common sense. That's the difference.
Scary, 5 feet apart and damn near killing each other and their passengers and crew. Thank God they got their shit together ❤ 🙏.
Should have at least been 6 feet.
@@billp4 Under?
"At this stage, the analysis of the parameters does not show inconsistencies, in particular between the movements of the controls and the movements of the airplane."
In other words, the airplane did exactly what the captain and F/O commanded it to do via the controls. Somebody who shouldn't have had their hands on the controls almost crashed the aircraft, namely the captain who was NOT the pilot flying.
💯
Very nerve-wracking indeed. I felt my heart rate spike dramatically as the pilots were fighting for control of the jet and avoiding a mi-air collision at the same time. Plus, the fact that I could very clearly understand the words of the flight crew and ATC with and without translations is chilling to me. As for the cause, it reeks of pilot error. Considering the plane took of at night for a transatlantic flight, I wouldn't doubt that fatigue played a role. That, and I smelled negligent communication and CRM in the approach phase. Scary stuff. Grateful that the flight landed in one piece.
How on earth could these two pilots avoid being sacked? They were virtually fighting in the cockpit. Incroyable.
They should errase the French langauge and make everyone speak English in that miserable country. One thing is for sure, never fly Air France!
what really happened was they both were fighting for the Toblerone in the cockpit
😂😂😂
I know that improper communication was the cause, but shouldn’t the plane give an alert saying they are both trying to fly it? An alert like this could have also prevented that Air France A330 crash in the Atlantic.
Air France 447 infamously crashed when the pilots were trying to fly with opposite control inputs. Particularly the inexperienced copilot who initiated the stall with confusing nose up inputs. If you read the transcript his actions prevented the other from recovering the stall. Bad weather and pitot icing did not cause this crash, the copilot did.
I think it crashed because the pito tubes were iced and then well that
@@blablaglag0393 The frozen-over pitot tubes created the circumstances for the crash to happen and are definitely a contributing factor, however the plane didn’t crash directly because of the condition of the pitot tubes
@@blablaglag0393 yes pitot tubes did not cause the airplane to crash. It is the pilots response to loss of airspeed indication. Pilots reacted to it wrong. They shouldn’t do anything, experts said. The speed indication would have been normal again in few minutes.
The Captain has a button on top of his joystick that will disable the FO's joystick.
If he had pressed it they would all be alive.
@@blablaglag0393 The pilot in control (for most of the crash sequence) held his flight control stick back the whole time, putting the plane into a stall, and did so despite getting stall warnings. If he had just let go of the flight controls, the plane would have recovered itself. Clearly there's a massive training or cultural issue at Air France
This is what I learned on my my first flying lesson - "You have control" - "I have control". Nothing more simple, or definite, than that.
In French is something like this - "Je mange l'escargot avec du matéca"- "tu le manges"
tu le manges
- You have the control!
- You're goddamn right!
except that wasn't even the root cause of the incident.
@@tensevo What was the root cause?
Is anybody starting to notice a pattern with Air France pilots here? There have been three notable incidents in the past 25-35 years where Air France pilots were not able to properly handle their aircraft. The time span between these incidents doesn't really matter, as all these incidents are bad enough to make Air France look bad. Air France pilots are not bad pilots, but it just seems like they are not trained well. And, it's not just Air France pilots, there are many accidents that I know where both pilots are trying to fly the plane at the same time. It's more or less just a lack of communication problem, and as we can see in aviation, that's dangerous.
*I don't see how this could have happened as they are sitting less than a 5 ft (approximately a meter) distance away from each other. This is why pilots normally discuss who is flying what leg of the flight.
Absolutely Im scared by the pilots not the aircraft, it reminds me the Rio Paris flight with better outcome
3 noticable in 45 years?? Great track record!!!!👍
@@Romans1.24-27 BuT FrEnCh BaShiNg!!!!!!!
Training in relationships is a recent addition. Most of the time, pilots have never met each other before the flight. They need to establish a relationship prior to takeoff.
I noticed it for long time ago. Pilot and non-pilot caused accidents. But very often AF, yes.
A couple of issues: 1. First and most important is situational awareness and pilot/copilot communication. If the captain wanted to take control, he should have said, "I am now in control." Second, we've seen accidents and near misses related to improper use of the autopilot. Part of the autopilot stays on and other functions are turned off. The flight director stays on. Then the pilot flying doesn't appear to understand what the autopilot continues to do that might conflict with what he/she is doing. I will go out on a limb here and ask: In a situation where the pilot flying does not understand the plane's behavior and wants to regain control, why not turn off the autopilot completely and manually fly the plane? Take full control of the plane, intercept the ILS localizer, fly the approach, use either the ILS display or a head-up display (the newest airliners have this) to fly the glideslope to touchdown - and the n later, parked at the gate, figure out what went wrong.
One or the other pilot, in that situation, MUST declare "I have the airplane", and then you have no problem like this. Glad everyone is Okay. I hope the passengers got a voucher for a free flight or some kind of compensation. All good wishes.
The graphics and camera angles in this video are really fantastic!! I always think take offs at night feel more magical for me. The last few moments of this flight were far from that. Their CRM was non existent! Hard to believe. Another great video. Thanks TFC! 👏🖤
I have had only two hours of flight training (in the Combined Cadet Force at school). One of the very first things I was taught when entering the cockpit is to communicate “I have control”; and for the other pilot to confirm “you have control”.
These are the fundamentals of flying in a multi-person cockpit. So it boggles the mind how two, presumably experienced pilots, could forget this.
Your expertise and eloquence amaze me. Maybe your mind is still boggled.
Air France’s culture definitely needs to change, this isn’t the first time there has been confusion regarding who is flying the aircraft. I can’t understand why the skipper decided to just start flying it as well, very odd
Well, then, you better go address the French National Assembly and DEMAND that this happens! They'll listen to a expert like you.
John I totally agree.....CRM and SOP issues seem a very common thread in Air France accidents/incidents.
Basic aircraft handling...
Check out that other recent Paris incident when the AF crew couldn't fly the go around and almost has a collision with a departing aircraft.
Basic airmanship and professionalism totally missing.
@@billolsen4360 chill Bill
@@jonathanbeattie3410 My advice to you
@@billolsen4360 is….?
I am inclined to doubt that there was a net left input for so long. Even if one pilot is absentmindedly holding the control out of center; the other would have moved the control as far as needed to regain control. Dragging the control all the way to the stops takes too much force to do by accident and continuing to roll left while struggling against a left roll is an implausible error.
I dont get why people are quick to conclude that the captain would be putting a bank angle in on approach. A quick look at the telemetry will reveal whether that was the case or whether it was an uncommanded roll.
This seems familiar to another Air France incident: Air France 447. In both incidents there was a lack of CRM and there was no real picture of who was doing what. Air France really need to upgrade their CRM in response to this incident. After all, had one of the pilots said "I have control", this incident would have been avoided.
CRM?
@@Capecodham crew resource management
Yes, the similitudes with AF447 are clear, the strange thing is understand how this can be possible on a Boeing rather than an Airbus, considering the kind ok cloche…
@@mancuby6679 Indeed. Since the Boeing yoke is much bigger than the Airbus sidestick, it confuses me why the pilots didn't notice each other's imputs.
Pesky French!
Good job on getting the details for this so quickly after the incident.
Ain't these the same mistakes the AirFrance pilots made on the Air France Flight 447 Rio-Paris that crashed? Same carrier, same mistakes! Scary indeed!
There are similarities however they did discover that one of the exterior sensors had frozen over so they had bad data at the controls.
@@terryhughes7349 yeah but pitot probes being frozen is common and pilots should ve known how to react
@@jayfinkheys3497 Air France hadn’t trained them to handle a frozen pitot tube situation properly, despite many requests from pilots and incident reports. Many other carriers operating the A330 had faced the same issue. They trained their pilots and replaced the tubes, but Air France chose not to.
@@blackwolf1475 Sure, but the crash is a shame to be honest. Even if it can be a hard situation to deal with, crew has been very poor. Even beginners are supposed to know how to deal with a stall alarm situation for example.
@@terryhughes7349 Exactly
I truly believe that the next major crash will be a result of pilot fatigue. They work those guys so hard....
hopefully there wont be any major plane crash again. and this was ridiculous fatigued or not. they completely forgot to ask or look whether the other had controls or not.
Already happend. There was a Air India crash I believe happened due to pilot falling asleep in the cockpit.
I believe that’s why so many flights are being cancelled…. There’s a tremendous lack of Pilots, and I can imagine the ones who are flying could easily suffer through exhaustion and the results could be very tragic…
You make everything look so real as if we are right there in the cockpit and even outside looking at everything going on!! Love your videos!! ✈️✈️
This was NOT fatigue - this was simply TERRIBLE communication! It is ALWAYS known and discussed who has control in the cabin. This was like a 3 stooges mistake that could have ended in disaster.
@@salahmed2110 where’s the source? Stop making shit up buddy.
My wife and I were on this flight in Premium Select sitting across from a flight attendant. When the plane began to pitch, we looked at each other knowing it wasn’t turbulence. However, at the time, I never felt we were in danger. Watching these videos tells me otherwise.
Is your wife single?
Thx for giving us your unique perspective! So happy your flight made it safe & sound!
You completely made up that story & lied
@@rockymountaintmp4436 tell that to the $15k that disappeared from my account. Ha
Interesting take! It’s easy to forget that there are people inside experiencing all of these malfunctions. Glad you’re ok though!
the first thing they teach you in military flight training is "I have control" and "You have control"
One of the best aircrafts ever made. It’s sheer power makes it a paper airplane with incredible resilience to fault.
wut?
When I’m exhausted and tired I panic and stress. It’s directly related to my lack of sleep or overwork so I can relate to these guys a bit
Somebody PLEASE just say "my aircraft!"
My aircraft.
@@RLTtizME 😂
@@RLTtizME I'll let the investigators know you have taken responsibility ;)
Beautifully edited video as always. Loved watching this :)
The first officer is flying the plane and for some reason he makes command inputs that deviates the plane from the approach path.
The captain starts to make control inputs (good ones) that conflict with the first officer's control inputs (bad ones).
The controls are mechanically connected so they are physically fighting and making so much force that they decouple the controls (a feature designed to be able to move the controls on one side if they get jammed on the other side).
The captain never says "I've got controls" or "My plane" or anything of the kind, which is a very standard practice since your first flight in flight school and it is called positive transfer of control.
Only one pilot must be flying the plane at a time (manipulating the flight controls). That is piloting 101.
I'm happy this turned out o.k. I was having some stress over this one. They each had their duties; captain was to monitor and do radio comms. Still, I have respect for pilots. My father used to say, "an uneventful flight" and, "hours of boredom, punctuated by moments of sheer terror." Flying needs to be flying, not monitoring systems. The less automation the better-- there's a fine line, keeping as much under the pilot's control as possible.
Excellent re-creation of a harrowing incident -- that IMHO -- did not need to happen!! Poor cockpit management by BOTH pilots. Thankfully, they were able to finally land safely. Excellent work, TFC!! 👍✈✈👍
I think there should be a main rule: If there are problems only the captain is in control.
what if the plane banks to left whilst the first officer is the pilot flying?
I wonder if the passengers could sense something was wrong and how they must've felt. Scary situation, but glad the plane landed safely!
Air France 447 had the same problem. Both pilots inputting conflicting flight controls. That flight ended tragically.
In those situation with flight control conflict. Shouldn’t there be a visual and audible warning? A loud "Conflict!!" , with a visual showing two yokes turning in the opposite directions! Seems too obvious not to have such obvious warning.
French pilots?
Airbus screams "dual input" continuously if both sidestick are moved at the same time and a warning light flashing directly in front of both pilots. But still AF 447 still happened
@@topethermohenes7658 according to the documentary, there was no obvious warnings to the crew.
@@phillm156 because the stall warning was overriding the dual input warning. Which is understandable as stall has higher priority than dual input. In 99.99% of the time a loud "dual input" is heard even if you accidentally move the sidestick a little when the other pilot is manually flying
the uncommanded roll on approach was the root cause here. Pilots resolved situation by going around. What more are you expecting they should have done given the circumstance
I'm surprised with all the computers on the plane there should be some kind of audible alarm that will sound if the yoke or joystick inputs are different/opposite
I am sure a day will come when some genius at Boeing says; "Why don't we put in an audible alarm when the plane's computer is receiving commands from both pilots at the same time?" 🤣
I have been a pilot for nearly 25 years and have been flying Airbus for over 18 years now. With a FBW aircraft, you need to state clearly who is controlling the aircraft.
In this situation, the captain should have stated: "I have control" and should have taken control of the aircraft.
Discipline, consistency and adherence to SOPs make flying safe.
Although the 777 is not entirely FBW, I'm surprised that there is not a "DUAL INPUT" warning on this machine.
Opposing forces from each pilot would explain the reasons for the instability at go around, but the initial and sudden deviation of the 6 degree bank to the left on final is where the real mystery is, without wind shear or any reason to deviate so much. Surely the F/O wouldn't have needed to put such an input in to the aircraft when stabilised and about to land?
The other issue has to be that the Captain did not announce 'my aircraft' before the de-sync of controls began. No matter how well trained you are, when your aircraft suddenly wanders off the final countdown path by 6 degrees, it's going to be a nightmare. Pilots are so used to automatic this, computer that, it's no wonder they end up so reliant on that automatic element.
This is why I am wholly opposed to self driving cars. If you are on a motorway at 70 mph, and the computer decides to have a 6 degree wander in either direction, people will die. I stand by my lifetime motto of, any computer is only as good as the person that made the components for it, and the programmer who coded it. Everything will always be open to human error, and when we are responsible for lives, you are a fool to let a computer take control of that, because when it comes down to it, no computer will be going to prison for the deaths of innocents. Young people need to stop thinking technology solves everything. They do not diminish responsibility.
they shouldve never done that without communicating imo
I agree, for now. AI technology is not ready yet. I believe pilots should be in the simulator manually flying with regular intervals. Maybe they are, I dont know. Im not a pilot. But the technology is not ready yet for full automation
Completely agree with O.P. Haven’t heard much about self driving cars lately though. The big push is to put us in electric cars….like the very first cars they invented. 🙄
It's far worse in the Airbus Planes or Scarebus as they are famously known, at least on Boeing Planes pilots still majority of the control for the time being, on Airbus Planes the computers control 90% of what the plane does.
From an Airbus pilots for what it's worth.....each side stick has a button on it that will disconnect the opposite pilot's controls after pressing for approx ten seconds. The purpose of this feature is to take over complete control from the other in an abnormal situation (such as pilot incapacitation) or otherwise. It is a deliberate feature and once activated it will sound a very LOUD aural warning "PRIORITY LEFT or PRIORITY RIGHT. Along with that there will be an arrow on the glare shield that will illuminate either red or green with the direction of who has control (it's been a while I am retired now). So there is no mistaking what is happening. This of course is a deliberate safety feature built in to the fly-by-wire system on Airbus If the pilots simultaneously apply pressure to the side sticks TOGETHER the computers take the "algebraic sum" of the inputs and mathematically determines by way of algorithms who has control but EXTREMELY scary. My takeaway from this incident suggests this happened on the B777 during subtle inputs unknowingly by inducing strong yoke inputs from both guys. If that's the case and was determined to be the cause (no other flight control faults found) would it be assumed there would be a very obvious associated warning? If anyone has Boeing experience I would be interested to know.
Simple solution.if the computers pick-up opposing inputs just have a warning go off to alert pilots . Especially if it’s happening over a sustained period
Someone else commented that the plane has a dual input alert, however it seems the plane was also stalling and the stall alarm overrides the dual input alarm. This is what I understood.
From my time flying in the late 90s I was taught the correct wording that should be said below, no shortening of the statement, the response or the confirmation.
Example if Captain takes control of the aircraft from the First Officer.
Captain states “I have the controls”
First Officer acknowledges “You have the controls”
Captain repeats in confirmation “I have the controls”
I know its radical but the pilots could always talk to each other.
Its a mini 447 crash scenario all over again.
Indeed, a thorough lack of CRM.
I gotta' quit watching these videos, but they're so addictive!!😉 That being said, I am glad everyone aboard survived. And I will continue to say that it takes SO much to learn how to fly a plane!
Same, I'm on vacation and still watching these, so addictive indeed!
I was on this flight and didn’t feel any reason for concern (at the time). But as I continue to read articles and videos, it could have been. So much worse.
Never flew an aircraft with another pilot….seems the first thing the captain would say, ‘I have it’, control of aircraft…..he’s the one who signed for it.
not even the issue, take a look at root cause.
How is such a sophisticated aircraft not able to alert the pilots that they are both making control inputs in conflict with each other?
Cause it is relative. And not as sophisticated as they want us to believe.
you can hear "Dual Inputs" when both pilots have input in Airbus aircrafts that use sidestick control
@@CCA-zc7pj probably as a result of the AF 447 crash in the Atlantic Ocean.
I know nothing about aviation, but I thought that a pilot always calls out "my controls" or "my airplane" (and usually waits for current PF to acknowledge with "your controls") before taking over from the current PF and making inputs.
Surely the aircraft should issue an audio warning to the pilots that it’s getting inputs from both control sticks at the same time
Tony 👋
Damn they were breathing hard they knew they were just seconds from disaster with that low altitude… imagine the relief once they stabilized…
THeir underwear confirms your speculation.
Passengers must have been breathing hard too.
@@philippededeken4881 they have. An air hostess even told a passenger she’d never faced such intense G forces before.
They knew they were about to die. Goes to show just how critical the whole situation was. Unbelievable.
@@PARCE93 and they nearly got in the way of a jet taking off from the airport.
This is almost exactly what happened to AF 447, which crashed in the Atlantic because one pilot was trying to push "nose down" on HIS controls, while the other pilot was trying to pull "nose up" on HIS controls. The plane was an Airbus A330 with sidestick controls which are out of each other's line of sight. Neither pilot told the other what he was doing, and the aircraft's flight computer simply averaged out the inputs. The plane bellyflopped into the ocean like a winged anvil.
actually has nothing to do, stall and icing kinda different to left bank...
That would be a basic design question for flight-control software- when the two pilot stations provide different control inputs, what do you do? Average them out? Follow the larger one? Can each pilot feel the other's input, if any? How is this handled in a fly-by-wire aircraft with a tandem cockpit, like the latest versions of the F-15? And what do you do if a transducer in the stick or rudder pedals fails, so that it is sending out a false control signal? Is there a way to mask it out, assuming the crew recognizes the situation?
Af447 was similar. Sounds like AF needs to improve CRM training.
Yes, I'm surprised the plane's controller does not have an input priority system installed. When it comes to sensors / encoders etc. there is always redundancy build in. Even the accelerator paddle in a Tesla has two different position sensors from two different manufacturers fitted sending data in separate wires.
Im surprised that there isn’t any kind of warning when both pilots are making inputs on the flight controls
(Airbus fly by wire aircraft have a warning for when both pilots make inputs on the flight controls, and even have a system to allow one pilot to override the inputs of the other pilot)
Guys, this is a Boeing. Not an Airbus. The controls are mechanically interlocked so they move in unison. So they were physically fighting for moving the controls as if they were both grabbing the same control. That is, until they made so much opposing force (50 lb) that they activated another design feature. The 2 controls are rigidly connected with a system that involves a pre-loaded spring. If the opposite forces exceed that of the pre-loaded spring, the 2 sides decouple and move independently (and this is what happened here). That is to be able to control the airplane in case one side is mechanically jammed. Now, to keep this "split controls" condition you need to be overcoming the spring force all the time. If you reduce the force, the spring will "win" and the controls will synch again.
@@adb012 Sounds like something from yesteryear....do 777 still have radial engines and propellers too?
I hate it when I open these videos and it says "2022". It reminds me (and my fear of flying) this stuff still happens!
Always well done and tear-jerking.
For those blaming Boeing for not putting additional alarms for conflicting inputs, here's an analogy. A carmaker still makes manual cars, even though they are aware that many people don't know how to drive manual. Does that mean the carmaker should be fined for accidents caused by inexperienced manual driver stalling their cars?
Great video as always
Lately Air France has had a lot of pilot air discipline problems, one was two pilots actually fighting each other in the cocpit recently.
So happy they landed safe. I forgot to breath listening to their transmission.
When I was flying Chipmonks the pilot used to say on letting go of the controls “you have control” to which I would reply “I have control sir”
Didn’t two pilots fighting at the controls ultimately doom the Air France flight over the ocean?
They did
@MentourPilotaviation - would love to see your take on this incident.
Thanks TFC, another great video.
Orr
I don't know the full parameters of the situation and how long these pilots were flying but I do know from first hand accounts that they are overworked and overwhelmed at times. Maybe this was just a simple case of fatigue and confusion but overall everyone was safe luckily
Was just on an Air France B777 today from Paris to Washington Dulles. Chilling reminder.
This would've not happened if there is a Flight Engineer. Aviation was much safer when aircrafts employed them. Bring back flight engineers!
It made the news here and initially the pilot was treated as a hero, but once we knew about what really happened... a really close call
So the BEA put out a bogus report with inaccurate findings to save Air France and the pilots reputation and careers. Very sad and very wrong. The pilots were to blame here.
13:11 , it's said that the BEA's preleminary report states that the pilots were unaware that they were conflicting each other in controlling the plane, while finding that the plane operated normally (any solid proof that this wasn't the case ?) .
BEA?
@@Capecodham French NTSB basically.
@@Capecodham BEA stands for "Bureau d'Enquetes et Analyses", which is the french organization which deals which those matters. It's mostly the same thing as NTSB in United States.
@@christophelemaire4551 I notice the producer of the video explains everything. However, some responders like to impress others with their use of acronyms or uncommon terms.
Great Work TFC. Highly appreciated.
Plz make video of JAL 123.
The international language of aviation is English, the cockpit command warnings were pretty clear. In most places, the pilots and air traffic controllers have demonstrated the ability to speak and understand English up to a level specified by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)...... not the French though, apparently. Sometimes being unconventional isn't worth the risk.
They can speak English but i think in many non-English speaking countries, they revert to their local language for their domestic carriers. I would say that is more common than you think.
whats the link between the language and the incident ?
@@jayfinkheys3497 I'm not totally sure but I imagine it would affect all of the other pilots that had to avoid this plane and it's pilots. They're not always going to be French speakers and that plane was everywhere in the sky. English would have given other non French air crew info they would have desperately needed.
@@jayfinkheys3497 See GetmeOuta Tennessees reply, my thoughts too.
@@getmeouttatennessee4473 My thoughts too , thanks for responding.
Been watching your vids since 2017 your the guy man
I'm not a pilot, so could someone explain Why would there ever be two controls functioning at the same time? Shouldn't one override the other? Imagine a car with two steering wheels both functioning simultaneously?? What a freaking disaster that would be.
Was wondering the same 🤔
Disclaimer: I don’t know specifically about the 777. This is what I know: when you have a control column (yoke), both sides are linked together in roll and pitch. The pedals are similarly linked for yaw.
In a large aircraft, each yoke controls one set of primary flight controls, the left yoke controls the left elevator and the left aileron/flaperon, and the right yoke the right control surfaces. Since the control columns are linked, when everything is normal, each side also gets to control the opposite set of primary control surfaces. And yes, the other control column moves… That’s why it’s important to know who is “driving”.
In the case of a control jam, and that would be undistinguishable from the other pilot blocking the controls, either axis can usually be disconnected by applying some force to regain control. You get half the control surfaces on the axis, but at least you can fly the aircraft. Disconnection can be permanent or temporary depending on the design.
Not sure this is what happened here, but 50 pounds of force sounds like it could be enough to disconnect both yokes from each other.
Now the 777 is one of the first fly by wire aircraft. I have no idea how that works except Boeing wanted to keep the cockpit “normal”. There are two yokes and they are linked mechanically. I’m not sure if there’s any mechanism to warn the pilots that they have conflicting inputs: because the yokes are linked, I don’t see how that could be implemented, or how such situation could be differentiated from a control jam.
@@cyul Thanks for the explanation. That does help my understanding.
When I learnt instructors always stressed who was in control by saying "You have control" to which the reply was "I have control Sir".
Air France seems to have a bad habit of hiring pilots who make opposite inputs cluelessly. Ridiculous that this happened after AF 447. Also, why the heck aren’t there warnings for double inputs installed on these aircraft?
Exactly.
I'm really surprised that commercial aircraft don't have some visual warning when both pilots are attempting to control the plane, particularly when they are making opposing inputs. A red light for instance, showing on both sides of the instrument panel somewhere. When such a light turns red, standard procedure would be for the copilot to stop. Yes, I know this is not a panacea because it could very well be the pilot who is inputting the wrong controls, but there has to be a system better than two people both forgetting to call out, "My plane!"
Proper CRM training.
Oh wow this flight would of almost had a mid- air collision with another plane that took off
This one is extremely recent, and it both sends me shivers and reassures me.
Gosh- I flew this flight a few years before the incident, interesting to see this one. Sounds like poor CRM maybe, if neither pilot knew what the other was doing. I am not clear why the Captain was making control inputs if he was meant to be monitoring and the FO flying?
Thank you for uploading these kind of videos based on true event. Scary or not, in some way, these kind of videos help reduce my fear of flying.
Thanks a lot TheFlightChannel!
Heureusement que tout s'est bien terminé, parce que en plus la trajectoire qu'il prennait ça aurait fait des dégâts un gros porteurs qui se crash en pleine région parisienne comme ça, j'ose même pas imaginer.. merci aux pilotes malgré tout 🤞
Aligné sur la 26R, l'avion était au-dessus de la campagne.
The first thing the PIC has to do is to say "My airplane" or "My controls". Like in some other cases we see before, the PIC also here doesn´t do it. That has lead to much more problems because both pilots were trying to recover the aircraft.
Good grief how did they certify to fly in the first place? “My controls” is a basic practice, and how did neither pilot not realize they were both fighting with the controls?
But why did it initially tilt to the left out of nowhere?
Air disasters tv show once had an installment where a DC-10 I think, lost all engines at 50,000ft and managed to glide to a safe landing in a park that was once an airport. Anyone else remember this? It would be cool to see the flight channel re enact that one.
Kevin
I remember this.
@@anthonywilliams9852 🤔👋
Yes, that was an Air Canada flight, not a DC10, but a Boing 767 that lost all engines because at that time in Canada they were changing from pounds to metric , an error was made in calculating the amount of fuel to be put on board. Also no aircraft flies at 50,000 feet, usually between 35,000 to maybe 40,000. The aircraft did glide into a disaffected airport, in the Winnipeg area of Canada. The captain or first officer was a glider pilot with a lot of experience. This was a flight that had the hands of God on it as no other flight crew in the simulator were able to land it, they have all crashed it. At the time I was an Air Canada flight attendant, and knew all of the crew that was on board. Some did not return to flight duties due to the immense stress they had gone threw, the pilots , bless them, continued to fly, but were not at the beginning recognized for the miracle they achieved. (The only aircraft at the time that flew near to 50,000 feet was the Concorde.)
@@dianecolpron5845 ua-cam.com/video/GZWjSUDTpOg/v-deo.html thanks for the info needed to help find this again.
"I have control"
"NO! I WANT TO CRASH THE PLANE".
dErP aIrLiNeS
What's wrong with AF? first Bonin and Robert, and now this? They said that yokes would've prevent AF447, but now that they have them...
J’ai été hôtesse pour 3 différentes Compagnies et j’ai trouvé ce message très intéressant!
Tu dois en avoir des heures de vol. Sacrée Danielle !
I don't understand Chinese.
I'm curious about the initial left banking. Even if both pilots were giving inputs, wouldn't they just be "small" ones to keep the plane on the correct glide? What/Who caused it to go so much left?
I would guess both were nudging slightly to the left which caused a slight bank angle and they totally lost the plot from there.
That’s what im wondering. It doesn’t explain why it initially tilted to the left.
Same here. Everyone keeps slating off the pilots but not a single expert in this comment section can provide a reasonable analysis for the sudden and persistent bank. Can only suspect one of them must’ve been suicidal.
The copilot who was flying the plane was responsible for the initial 6 degree bank.