FYI the double stack 17rd 22TCM FS 1911 is still made and sold. I recently bought one (two mags supplied) from Sportsman's Warehouse, and, my experience (not just an opinion) is that it has so far proved to be flawlessly reliable and very accurate. Like 38 Super, it isn't widely stocked ammo, true, but I've found it on the shelves of some gun shops, and I've ordered it in bulk from both Cabelas and Sportsmans Warehouse at half the price of 5.7x28! At 74 y.o. I no longer handle the bigger bore handguns as well as I once did, so the light recoiling 22TCM is a welcome addition to my choice of EDCs. The 22TCM FS double stack is certainly not a toy, it is seriously all business, and the penetration capabilities of the lead hollow point round on soft body armor can be improved (if required) by reloading with pointed copper bullets. The conversion kit with a 9mm Glock reportedly has its issues, and also chambers a shortened version of the 22TCM round called TCM9R. To say the noise and muzzle blast of 22TCM is a con, really is a "con" when you promote shooting pistols chambered in 10mm. How many rounds of 10mm do you put through your pistol at any one range session? I shoot my 22TCM a lot, and thoroughly enjoy it! Also, compare some of the videos out there exposing the reliability and functionality of some of those 5.7 pistols you claim are better. BTW one can take advantage of the Armscor deal (like I did) to provide proof of your 2024 purchase of a 22TCM FS 1911and get a free double stack 17rd mag along with 100 rounds of ammo.
@@stoltzld80 that’s the same velocity i get from my 5.7. You really need a 5.7 platform to bring out the best in the 22 TCM. The magazine length of the 5.7 is what’s needed to optimize 22tcm
I actually have both. The 5.7 Rock is incredible in every way except ammo cost, additionally it's full size makes it an awkward choice for me other then when I am fully dressed (like a suit) in winter gear. For the 22TCM9R, I have the MAPP edition which is built by Tanfoglio under license by Armscor/Rock Island. This is essentially a compact 9mm Tanfoglio Witness (DASA) in 22TCM9R and uses a 16 round magazine that fits any 9mm CZ. The MAPP is a CZ clone in nature and has been incredibly reliable and handles the 22TCM9R round which is 39gr vs 40. I have carried the 22TCM (same as my G19) with just a shirt or tee on, not going to happen with the Roc (a full 8 vs 6.75in).
5.7x28 is making huge gains as of lately. Lots of new guns chambered in the caliber and PSA ammo coming in line. These factors will be the death of .22 TCM
RIA should have just adopted the 5.7x28 instead of trying to recreate the wheel with the 22 TCM, had they introduced Armscore 5.7x28 ammunition along with a budget friendly 5.7 pistol instead of the 22 TCM they would have beaten Ruger, S&W, and PSA to market with a budget friendly firearm in an area of the market with FN being their only over priced competitor for at least a couple of years while Ruger and the others were still doing R&D.
.22tcm will always be more popular with reloaders and wildcat types. Its just more interesting, more to be explored, more common brass n bullets that will always be accessible. Now people are messing with 5.56×24. But i agree it will never be a favorite to folks susceptible to marketing ploys and just wanna jam a round in a hole that fits n pull the trigger without putting much thought into it.
@@notchagrandpa8875 can't knock FN's pricing, they were first and were the only ones on market for a while, so of course they were going to ask a premium there. I'm just hoping 2023-2024 sees them realize they can no longer price like that and adjusting.
Not so much applicable in the USA but in other countries where you have to register each gun or where there is a limit to the number of guns that can be owned, a multi-caliber gun can be very beneficial and a huge PRO for the cartridge.
Yeah, not as much here. I know it's one reason the CZ 455/455 series is so popular because one rifle is 4 calibers and multiple barrel lengths. In the US multi caliber weapons don't take off as much, with maybe the only real exception being the 300 BLK.
Having a single stack magazine for such a small caliber round is self-defeating, since one of the advantages of going small is having more shots in the magazine.
There's barrel kit conversions. I know that there's a video of one in a glock. So in that particular case, yeah.. use ur glock mags, and capacity isn't an issue. Cheaper than buying a new gun too. Less restrictive as there's no background check involved. ;-)
@Sean Price maybe not, but at what price? If people aren't going to pay the price for what's still available, why bother? Same with acquiring the tooling and any required production rights necessary to make them yourself.
Well, if one is going to the bowels of mindanao where clan warfare is still a thing, yes less rounds in the mag is quite a disadvantage. But for self-defense purposes? I doubt those on the receiving end of the 22TCM barrel will retain the courage to push on after hearing its insanely loud report. One would think they're up against someone carrying a rifle.
@@txvet7738 one of those stupid moments in life. TAC Ultra FS HC 22TCM/9mm 17rd, UGH! AIR CAV! Now you have looking for a replacement. Can't have too many. ;)
I think Tim's point was that it's a single provider solution for that ammo, and being as such, the gun needs to run flawlessly for HIM. Whether it's the mag, or the gun, HIS model consistently malfunctions at that one spot. Armscor makes value grade guns. And for what they are, they're pretty good. But they're also made by robots in a very modern facility - which is why Tim stressed the importance of hand-fitting.
@@toddfeltman3748 ahh, did not know that. Not digging on him though. Just pointing out that mine worked well but they don't make mine anymore. I bought one of the first ones that came out with the 22tcm and the 9mmm conversion
I have the RIA TAC Ultra 22TCM/9MM combo, love this firearm and it is a flamethrower!!!! I have toyed with the idea of getting a 5.7x28, (and it would be the PSA) but the price of the ammo has kept me from doing so.(so far) Great video Tim.
Ballistic advantage over 22 WMR slight and cost of ammo nearly triple. Reasons I opted for the KEL TEC PMR 30. Runs 50 grain Game Shok flawlessly. Seriously considering the CMR 30.
Here in Utah, I always see TCM on the shelves. I recently bought a used double stack 9mm/TCM 1911. Now looking for their bolt action rifle for coyotes. The only thing I wish from Armscor is that they would produce a light AP round in TCM. Here is my “two cents:” 5.7 is a tactical caliber. TCM is a versatile multi-purpose caliber, perfect for varmint control, super fun at the range, and a capable defensive round if you choose to use it.
@@PatriotPaulUSA That makes me wonder. How would it perform in a conversion kit, on something that has a lighter slide? Such as say just for SnG's a race gun, or one of the competition Canik's? Where you could also tune the recoil spring?
22 magnum, especially with rounds like federal punch, is becoming a really cool little round in all these new pistols like the Walther and the Keltecs out there.
I've been pretty happy with my PSA 5.7 Rock. I had a few attempts at the gun trying to load 2-3 rounds at a time, but that seems to have fixed itself with use. Fun to suppress. Shoots accurately.
I think that a 5.7 chambered pistol is probably the best option for a school resource officer. Light recoiling, inherent accuracy, ability to defeat armor with the proper loads, super flat shooting. All those characteristics IMO mean that if you’re in an active shooter situation responding as the first armed person, the assailant is possibly at the end of a a hallway, or across a larger classroom where a traditional handgun cartridge is going to be less forgiving of a first round hit. Bad guys are wearing body armor more often, at decent distances the 5.7 will still reliably defeat most soft armor easily with even standard ammunition. With special or more exotic ammo even some hard armor is not a match. If 5.7 was as ubiquitous as 9mm today then I’d completely switch over to it as my daily EDC gun. Till it’s at least as common and cheap as any of the 40-45’ calibers I’ll wait.
Just bought a NEW double stack. I honestly think you have the single double issue backwards. There are also barrel kits for Glock that fire 22T9R.a round made specific for 9mm mag well. Just an fyi. Great vid You did hit nail on head about it basically being a fun range gun. I've had 2, they are great for instruction and getting a new shooter over the noise flinch.
It’s awesome seeing 5.7x28mm and 10MM gaining traction/availability. But even so, I’m gravitating back towards 9x19mm and .22LR due to the current climate.
Twenty years or so ago there was a gunsmith in Louisiana that necked down a 9x23 to .22 and called it the .22 Zipperer. I always thought it was a super cool concept and wanted one badly. Before that Jeff Cooper talked about how a center fire .22 at around 2000 FPS would make a dandy trail gun or maybe for self defense. I really never liked the FN 5.7x28 cartridge or pistol. When RIA came out with the 22TCM I was ecstatic. I was finally able to purchase a .22/9mm combo. I’m not disappointed, the performance and fireball are great fun and recoil is basically non-existent, and the 1911 configuration makes it that much better. I just wish that RIA would get SAAMI to standardize the cartridge, as it stands it’s a lot cheaper to shoot than 5.7x28.
It’s not a bad caliber by any means, unfortunately it’s just not popular and hasn’t caught on with any major ammo or gun manufacturers. 5.7 gaining popularity is probably pretty much killing it now unfortunately
My RIA 9mm/22TCM has been a champ. I also fitted a 38 Super barrel to it. A tiny bit of filing on the mag floor plate fixed the lock open with one round thing. With the trigger and action job done it’s as sweet as any 1911 that costs much more
I would be interested on doing the same thing. Would love to be able to have 38 Super Barrel. Would love to get your information who did the work for you? I would be very interested on getting fitted for that Barrel as well. Any information would be appreciated👍🏻👍🏻
@@louisfeuer9714 I did the fitting work on a used barrel from the gun show. It went really well, I had to do a tiny amount of fine file work inside the slide (the rim on 38 super was dragging and binding up the slide). Twenty minutes of file work and the 9mm recoil spring and she runs 38 Super👌
@@louisfeuer9714 I used a standard GI 1911 5” barrel that I bought off a table at a gun show (used for like $90, I think). The barrel links come in like 5 different lengths, a mid length worked well for mine. Check out 1911 barrel fitting videos here on the tube or get a book by Jerry Kuhnhausen “The Colt .45 Automatic a Shop Manual”. It’s not difficult work.
For me there needs to be more ammo options and more platforms. Look 1911 is cool and all but still it gets boring really fast. A S&W M&P 2.0 that shoots 22 TCM would be nice to have.
For me, the problem is the guns not the ammo. I like the round, and the price per round isn't terrible already. The problem is that the take up of the round by gun makers isn't high. Just like the fkbrno (that name lol), the round has awesome performance potential, but until it gets wide production acceptance, there's not much you can do
If you reload you can kinda make your own , I bought 1200 rounds of 22TCM for under 400.00 shipped to my door. That is cheap at 33 cents a round. It cant really push a heavier bullet so its kinda 40 grain or smaller weight to me. It really is a great gun and a fun cartridge to shoot. Thats about all 5.7 is to me too. I also bought 1200 rounds of nickel plated 22tcm cases with primers installed in the middle of ammogeddon for under 199.00. Its not a round that should be loaded by beginners tho because of the high chamber pressures.
One problem I've noted with the .22 TCM is the fact that there is plenty of exposed, soft lead that catches on the feed ramp pretty easily during feeding. That being said, the last time I took it out, it worked a lot better than when I first got it. I've handloaded for it as well and the loads worked fine, but the bullets had to be seated very deeply, so bullet choices are limited to lighter weight and/or stubby in profile. EDIT: The trigger on the Rock Island pistol is excellent in my opinion, better than my other 1911 type pistols.
Everything you said about the .22TCM was said about the 5.7 when it was first released for the commercial market. It will be interesting to see what the future holds for the .22TCM.
It certainly has a future with me since you can cast a gazillion bullets for the 22 TCM9R very cheaply and make GCs out of aluminum cans and roughly 10-12 grns of H110 or W296 and a small pistol primer equates to shooting it extremely cheap something you cant do with the 5.7.The 5.7 is an awesome caliber but the reloading process is a little more tedious than the 22 TCM or TCM 9R
@@9unslin9er what is the point of a PCC . 22TCM when all you need is to reload you 5.56 cases with . 22TCM bullets. No need for a new barrel, receiver and magazine.
@@luburan1973 The point is you can have a smaller reciever. Less weight more handy. .22TCM has far less recoil, so it wouldn't need a buffer tube system. *It could run in a Ruger PC Carbine, without a longstroke gas system. The recoil spring in a RIA .22TCM is 7lbs. Far less than what's needed for 9mm (13lbs)
Glad I'm not the only one who was going to mention this. Also, the RIA MAPP pistol is a more modernized pistol that is double stack .22 TCM/9mm convertible.
They just pushed the bullet deeper restricting the powder capacity and power. It is the cartridge they should have developed more and released first with SAAMI specs.
Also as an owner of a RIA MAPP 22TCM9R. I agree the 22TCM9R Is overlooked. Mine is a fire breathing dragon. Glad I picked it up when I did. Most didn't even know the pistol or round exists.
@@charlesmckinley29 Yep! and if you look around some smart guy's on forums found a way to load more common .224 projectiles into the 9R without seating it too lown down. I think it was on glock forums?
Whoa! Hold up! You mean to tell me that a company that is mostly known for making 1911s with an average MSRP of $758.50 doesn't have as good of a quality control department as a company that specializes in making 1911s with an average MSRP of $2004.24? What's next? Telling us that an off-the-shelf .308 Savage Axis with an old Tasco scope won't be as accurate as a custom-built chassis system rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor with a Zeiss scope. Give us some warning when you get to that one. Wouldn't want anyone to die of shock or anything.
Bit of a nitpick: Just because the newer cartridge is longer doesn't automatically mean that the older cartridge can't be the parent case. The .38 Special is the parent case of the .357 Magnum, which is itself the parent case for the .357 Remington Maximum, and the .38 Special is the shortest case of that bunch. The .44 Russian is the parent case for the .44 Special, and the .44 Special is the parent case for the .44 Magnum. The parent case for the .308 Winchester is the .300 Savage, which is based on the .250 Savage, both of which are shorter than the .308 Winchester. I could probably dig around and find more examples if I really needed to, but these were the examples that immediately came to mind.
I feel bad for the 22tcm. It has a lot of potential, but it just doesn't have the manufacturer support. Get a little bit of marketing support from one or two big manufacturers and it would really take off.
For me, the two things that interest me in the 22TCM are 1. The grip of a pistol will mirror that of a 9mm. I have large hands but short fingers so I prefer a a smaller grip that isn't very deep(?) from the back to front strap. Hence why I haven't found any 5.7 handguns to feel good in my hands. 2. The potential in a light, handy bolt action or semi auto carbine/rifle. If you can get upwards of 2800 FPS out of a carbine or 20" barrel, you are looking at a potentially fantastic varmit gun, more power than a 22 WRM with the (assumed) ability to handload/reload. That is definitely a potentially winning idea, especially if it can be paired with a handgun that could share ammo. Imagine a lightened Ruger PC carbine and Glock/M&P/Sig combo for a ranch, bugout, of survival combo. Something that I would definitely like to see.
@jmg617 - RIA/Armscor make a bolt-action which fires the 22 TCM, in case you are interested. I don't have experience with it, but it was on their website last I saw.
Sold my .22TCM not too long ago.. fireball for sure and low recoil that is about it.. I had extraction issues and mag we troublesome but in the end was not worth the expense.
i have the same issues, sent the pistol back twice to Nevada for fixing, they said it worked fine but it never has been able to shoot more than one magazine full without a failure to extract. Now i just use it as a 9mm as i have the dual caliber kit when i bought it.
I did have some extraction issues in my .22 TCM, but that was only when I fired the 9R round in it. Locked it up and I had to use a cleaning rod to punch the fired case out. No such problems with the standard TCM ammo.
On the projectile expansion, the TCM appears circular, and the 5.7 more square. If you took the area given the measurements of each, the TCM comes out with a larger area. Of course, all the other lingering issues of TCM still apply. It's neat, but I doubt anyone else will ever pick it up.
I got the 22TCM conversion for one of my Glocks, not as a defensive caliber (I have that covered) but as a variable for the range or possibly a trail critter load. No reliability issues yet & lots of fun!
The 22 tcm is awesome. I have it in the Glock model wich takes the 22 tcm R to fit the Glock 9mm mags. And a rock island wich takes the 22 tcm and is in the awesome wide body 20+ rd mags and with just a barrel change you can swap to 9mm and still enjoy the rock island elite model. The best part is that rock island also makes a bull barrel bolt action rifle wich takes the 20+ rd pistol mags and it is accurate and squeezes more velocity out of the round. You should have added these points into the video. Also the 22 tcm isn’t a new idea. They just perfected it. Before the 22 tcm was the 224 BOZ wich was a necked down 10mm to 22 cal or something like that. And if the only reliability issue with a sample size of one is a 5 to 10 min tuning of the slide lock thats not bad. I have had both models of the rock island and neither have ever had a hiccup. But yes they arent a staccato or even a Springfield prot but it also is only 500 to 600$. And the rifle is really is nice and to have a nice long range bolt gun that uses the same mags. The Glock model wich is the 22tcm R I built myself and it works so good it is my go to rig pistol. That being said I love the 5.7x 28 is awesome too. That is why I almost have all the pistols that shoot it and a p 90 wich is so much fun. But I will say that the price of the 5.7x28 ammo is ridicules and it should I way be 50 to 60$ a box. Let’s hope when PSA get their brass & steel cased ammo they will crank out affordable and reliable ammo for the 5.7 , 556, 762, 5.45 ext and others and allow people to get out shooting more.
The 5.7 handguns only make sense if you can get the good ammo like Elite ammunition. But they're not even making ammo right now because they can't seem to get materials. Until PSA starts cranking out ammo and brings the price of plinking ammo down and comes out with penetrator rounds it's not really going to explode like it could.
Even the nerfed 5.7mm rounds have objectively proven themselves to be pretty lethal in a certain infamous shooting. The majority of complaints about ineffectiveness are mostly from unverified, "trust me bro" internet forum anecdotes.
@ostiariusalpha Anything can be effective when shooting fish in a barrel. The case you speak of nobody could defend themselves. They were executed. That doesn't mean 5.7 is great a defensive round. What happened at Ft. Hood could have been accomplished with a .22lr.
@@TheCowboyfromhell87 Whether they were armed or not is irrelevant, all the victims that were killed had died from a single shot to center mass. That's objectively effective for any pistol round.
If 22 TCM got any of the marketing or support anywhere near 5.7, it would hands down be the better cartridge. It has better performance, you can load any number of 223/556 bullets into it, so it would always be on top. 5.7 just has the casing diameter going for it, meaning more rounds in a mag. Imagine one of these in a pocket pistol like a P365 or Hellcat. Just imagine any other platform with 22 TCM as the cartridge. There are glock conversions, but those suffer from reliability issues from what I've found online, because the slides are too heavy if I'm correct. As well as a slightly different chambering, 22 TCM9R.
Even that "advantage" is insignificant. A 21rd G17 Magpul holds 22rds of TCM and is about 3/8" taller than a 20rd 5.7 mag (about what you'd expect for 22 vs 20 in the same caliber).
That glock slide isn't as heavy as a 1911 slide I am sure. It does use a 7lb recoil spring, so if the glock slide isn't smooth enough cycling it would be bad , I can see that.
The expanded surface area of the 22 TCM would be greater than that of the 5.7. The 22TCM was more circular with an area of 0.066 sq-in while the 5.7 was more closely to that of a square shape where you measured the hypotenuse, thus having an area of 0.048 sq-in.
When they announced the tcm I was Soooo looking forward to it and I just KNEW this exact scenario of one source for ammo and guns would play out. I wish the big names came out promoting it initially so it could have gotten a better start.
I once saw one of the bolt action rifles in a local gun shop and handled it for a few minutes. It surprisingly had one best triggers I had ever felt on a simple production gun. I was so impressed I almost bought the gun just because of the trigger. But having a 17hmr and 22mag rifles I talked myself out of the "need".
I believe the RIA 5.0 is going to be available in .22tcm9r also available will be a 2.5 pound trigger. The owner of RIA said these things at shot show. Didn’t say how long till market of course.
The billing is that you only need to swap the barrel and recoil spring (easy to do in a 1911, basically field strip and swap) to change it into a 9mm. That was the only reason I thought it was kinda cool, if .22 TCM ever goes away, just swap your barrel and shrug. If you buy a 5.7, it's a 5.7 and that's what it is.
Don't be mislead the RIA 1911's are very well made and lifetime gauranteed to whoever owns it, even if you didn't buy it new. His little slide stop issue is because he hasn't taken care of it. Also the 1911 he has is their bottom tier model.
Tcm all the way for me. I have owned both but not at the same time but I preferred the TCM by far. If people would just give it a chance, then more guns and ammo would be made.
I got a Rock Island Armory 22 TCM barrel and spring kit for my Glock 19. Jams fairly regularly so not something I would carry for self defense. But man does the 22 TCM have a presence at the range. Muzzle blast the size of a watermelon! And the BOOM is epic. BTW, the PSA Rock 5.7 pistol is currently on clearance on their website for $299!!! I just ordered 2 more…
I saw the Psa add online Are those pistols any good I’ve always wanted a 5.7 but the Fn was out of budget for me and I have the KelTec Pmr and the Cmr for less than the Fn They run flawlessly
Have you looked into the 22tcm9r ammo? It is intended for use in the glock conversion. The 22tcm9r bullet is seated deeper in the case than the standard 22tcm. They did this in order to make it feed more reliably in 9mm magazines. The downfall is, you're not likely to find it on the shelf of your local gun store. If you find some, you might want to try it.
@@Bones6987I don't know if you got your answer by now but I don't have a PSA but I've hot Ruger 5.7s. I have watched countless videos on 5.7s and 3 different videos was comparing different brand 5.7s. The PSA done good until they got into the smaller grain bullets which have over 2000 fps and the PSA didn't just jam but the guns were messed up so bad it was over for them and they had to send them back to PSA to be fixed if able to. Smith and Wesson jammed a few times but that could've been ammo but they used same ammo for testing. Ruger and FN there wasn't a problem. I got my Ruger 2 1/2 years ago and have shot a lot of rounds out of it and several different grains and I haven't had 1 jam or problem at all. So hopefully this will help you but I hope I'm not to late.
Wish we had more market support for the TCM. It's a good cartridge. And I love the convertible 9mm guns that RIA made to go with them. Fantastic concept that fell out of style bc of poor marketing along with Armscors refusal to allow other companies to load it. I used to see 22TCM in Cabela's every time I walked in, but that was pre pandemic. TBH, I haven't noticed it in a while, but then again, I haven't been looking for it either so... yeah. And TCMs operating pressures, still aren't as high as 30soup. Another reason why I don't see the super carry making too long either, (unless the industry keeps cramming it down everyone's throats, then folks will be sorta forced to accept it). I still wouldn't mind seeing more 357sig though 🤔
I'd like to see .30 SC in a Hi-Power, like the 7.92 VBR demonstration model. The gun already has slim mags to keep the grip narrow and that limits the 9mm capacity very harshly, but .30 SC being narrower could squeeze more rounds around the Hi-Power's limitations.
I love the 357 Sig, and I don't even carry one. LOL. Out of $$ for tritium sights and a good holster. It is a whiz-bang manstopper, likely better than the 40 Smith I carry with Gold Dot 165gr.
@@gifthorse3675 I think the mp7(and the p90, despite the bad triggers, especially on the latter) are possibly the coolest/most fun machine guns to shoot. Probably not the greatest PDWs/sub guns on earth, but fun nonetheless(though I'm realizing now that "cool" or "fun to shoot" are probably not the metrics you were using to gauge how overrated they are or are not.
I love my 22TCM/ 9mm 1911. I got mine not long after they came out. 17 +1 is a win IMO. I had the same issue with the last round so I sent it back to Armscor and they fixed the issue. I have a Para Ordinance 14/ 45 as well.
The 22 TCM 9R is a shorter version of the 22 TCM and the 9R can be used in Glock conversions for this caliber. The malfunction is a magazine/slide stop issue and could be easily corrected by a competent gunsmith. Armscor also has a very good warranty service.
Also for people who reload, the TCM round can be made from 223/5.56 brass. And how much dinged neck and shoulder 5.56 brass have you seen at the range?
I have a T/C Contender 14" 22 Jet barrel that is fun to shoot. With handloads and soft, cast bullets, it is one of my fav close range, rock chuck shooting set ups. On my parent's place in Idaho, the 'chucks get under the rocks, buildings, and eat a lot of alfalfa. The little 22 Jet does not make a lot of noise, and if I miss, the soft lead bullets just flatten on the rocks and I don't have to worry too much about ricochets. With a 5.7x28, I would worry about bouncing rounds off rocks and into my parent's farm critters, buildings, expensive machinery or the roadway.
The three limiting factors of firepower: Rate of fire , Combat range, Terminal effect. Make all of your decisions on an aggregate of these three. Personally I don't even want to be hit by an air rifle pellet. So go ahead and make all the overblown comparisons you like. You are better off armed than unarmed. Good video, thanks for all you do.
I have yet to see one that works. I have 3, all installed by professional gunsmith. Not a single one can make it through a complete magazine without a malfunction.
@@chrisr251 If you honestly paid a professional gunsmith to put a barrel and recoil spring into your pistols... then as a shooter, I'm finding it difficult to take you seriously.
I had a professional install them after I couldn't get them to work. And because that was what RIA told me I needed to do before I could get them to refund my money for their product not working. So I got reimbursed for it along with the refund. But when two different gunsmiths are unable to get what is supposed to be a drop-in kit to work, there is something wrong with the kit. When it is three different kits, for both Glocks, and RIA's own MAPP, which is supposed to actually use the cartridge, something is very wrong with the kits.
@@chrisr251 Ah. Ok. I understand now. Thank you for the explanation. I apologize. I'd not have said what I said if I had known that the manufacturer had told you to do so. Particularly if you'd said that they'd mandated it in order to get a refund. I can understand how you would Not be happy about That. Additional cost, mandated on a product that doesn't work! I am really wondering if it is a platform issue. What kind of pistol was your kit for? There's vids of Glock kits that work. 1ShotTV has one such video.
If Armscore would make a barrel for the long slide large frame glocks, it would do everything. The 22TCM9R for Glock 17s is a lot of fun and works flawlessly.
I love the concept of the 22 tcm and 9 mm combo. I just wish it was made more plentiful across other manufacturers. Hopefully it survives, but I guess I won't hold my breath.
22tcm has been around for 10 years now. I've had one since they came out, the doublestack 1911 is a fantastic gun with an excellent trigger. 22tcm destruction is something you have to experience, 9mm pokes holes in stuff, tcm annihilates it. I have a rock 5.7 too, and the 5.7 just doesn't blow stuff up the same way.
Agree the 68 gr XD bullet loaded by Underwood is everything you say it is at the 6:30 mark. The Underwood 357 Sig XD 68gr round at a real world velocity of 2200 + fps and 765 ft. lbs. of energy smokes the 9mm and 5.7 in over all performance.
There’s so many different 5.7x28 rounds from AP ammo/ FMJ/ hollow points/ polymer tips/ you have the gold dots/ some sub sonic hollow points that open up bigger than a 25cent us Quarter/ you even have Special frangible rounds that break into 3 peace’s I love 57
Glad to see more and cheaper loads available on the market for the 5.7x28. Not a huge fan of pistols in that caliber but the Ruger LC carbine makes a nice truck gun. Needs a better trigger but it has promise.
Interesting, I have kind of the opposite opinion when it comes to 5.7x28 and think the Ruger LC carbine is an odd choice for the caliber. The way I see it it seems weird to go for a full sized rifle at 20rd capacity in 5.7 when 5.56 exists to fill the small, fast, and light recoiling rifle space, and the biggest pro of 5.7 is the ability to fit in a pistol where there are few cartridges like .22 TCM that fill a similar niche. As a companion that takes the same magazines as the pistol I could see the value, but if you were to pick 1 gun why the LC carbine? It feels like there are plenty of foldable and bullpup alternatives in 5.56 if you're looking at 5.7 from the standpoint of only having a full length rifle in the caliber.
Yeah it's $1000 truck gun! Does it do anything more than a Keltec/Glock combo? and since AP ammo is not readily on the market for 5.7X28 wouldn't you be better off with a cheaper and lighter AR pistol with a brace or M4 Carbine and AP 5.56mm?
I realize this is an old videos but I just got my hands the S&W 5.7x28 and I put a 407k red dot on it and I'm into it 900$ or so. I have not yet to shoot it do to me getting back surgery but I definitely fell in love with the ergonomics and the trigger break is crisp. Two things I love. Right now ammo is 35 to 40 dollars for 50 rounds. That part sucks but if you grab a box of ammo every check and sacrifice the energy drinks it's not that bad. I recommend it for anyone with decent size hands because it is incredibly comfortable.
I love your honesty!!!! Too many gun reviewers just selling guns for manufacturers. The gun mags are the same too. So you Tim, are a breath of fresh air
Excellent video, and a fun topic. I love the 22 TCM and would like to see it gain some popularity and industry presence... but agree with your assessment on the comparison.
Plus their bullshit shipping fees, tax and whatever your local FFL charges for transfer fees. Probably bumps that number up to 600-ish. I like PSA but they're definitely guilty of using unsavory business practices (like they way they advertise and market the things that they sell).
The actual story--according to a conversation I had with RIA owner, Martin Tuason is that there were barrels of reject brass that RIA gunsmith Frank Craig saw at Armscorp and he asked if he could take some to develop this cartridge he had been thinking about. The reason it was developed for the 1911 is that RIA is the world's largest manufacturer of 1911s. I fired one at SHOT Show a couple of years ago, and it's definitely a pretty cool cartridge. The offerings in 1911 are far too big for CCW in my opinion. I haven't played with the Glock conversion, but based on the limited ammunition that's available, it's definitely a niche round. In my opinion, this probably shouldn't be anybody's first, or for that matter second, or even third handgun. If you are into cool guns and cartridges, it's probably worth owning.
I have owned a single stack RIA 22TCM tactical for several years. It's one of my favorite range guns. While some of the concerns expressed in the video are certainly valid, I believe the value of the 9mm/22TCM combo was understated. Same for the price difference between the 22TCM and 5.7 cartridges. To many folks, that price difference is significant and important. As to quality, I can honestly say that my "sample of 1" has been 100% reliable through thousands of rounds. I don't remember having any kind of malfunction. One other point. While I can't speak to the 5.7 in any pistol (never owned one), I can offer that the 22TCM out of my RIA is by far the most accurate pistol I have ever owned... and I've owned a LOT. I attribute that accuracy to the light, smooth trigger and the almost non-existent recoil of the firearm. It is an absolute joy to shoot.
22 TCM is only more affordable because there is basically no demand for it. If it ever managed to become even moderately more popular, the price would shoot up well past 5.7mm; it's a bit of a Catch-22 (pun intended).
I love my .22 TCM 1911. I don't use it for self defense. That is reserved for my FN 509. I hate that you didn't get a reliable 1911, Tim. I've fired mine many times and never had a bit of trouble with reliability. Good information in the video, though.
I understand that running these rounds in handguns is the basis of the video but…. I remember when the TCM was introduced and they advertised the bolt action rifle that was chambered in it, not for everyone but a cool concept I thought. I think that a 5.7x28 in a compact bolt action would be a handy little varmint gun, I would also like to see a Controlled Chaos 5.7 round. Great topic for conversation as usual, thanks for all that you do!
22tcm9R would be an interesting thing to cover..you can get a barrel and recoil spring kit for any gen 3 9mm Glock.And your absolutely correct with the boom..it sounds like a 44mag but feels like a 22mag.
*Laughs in 7.62x25* On a serious note, yes, I knew almost 10 years ago that this 5.7 would become huge, ans everyone said, "No, bro, don't get the 5.7. It'll never take off and they're too expensive. You'll end up having a gun that nobody makes the bullets for.". Yet, look where we are now. I'm not disappointed.
22TCM can be bought for $35 a hundred. I have never had an issue with my 22TCM. In my opinion, if you have a 22TCM, no need to go with the 5.7, but each to their own.
Tim I have spoken to you before when I had some issues with a pistol years ago. When I called the shop you were very interested in the story. I wanted to add some things. I'm not sure if someone else said this in the comments. I hope it helps 1. Most of the rock island guns in 22tcm came with a 9mm barrel to swap out. In case 22tcm did not survive, you did not have a dead gun. 2. Armscor, at one time, we're making after-market glock slides and another version of their ammo. 22tcmr. I would assume the r stands for rounded. I am not sure since I never bought one. However, reduced weight for carry. I cannot confirm reliability. At one time, I had the single stack your showing as well as their 2011 version still have the double stack. Hope this information helped. I can tell you both pistols needed some adjustments before I got them reliable. Very small ones but needed.
From the look of the entry angle for each round, the 5.7 has MUCH less drop at that distance, making aiming over a range of distances much easier. That right there is worth more than all the features you could ever add to a gun.
For me, the main drawback of the 22 TCM is that it doesn't utilize a Spitzer style bullet and therefore has almost zero potential to penetrate body armor 😕
I got a Glock 19 .22 TCM conversion barrel. Shot 1 box of Armscor 22 TCM 9 ammo through it. Had 3 primers completely eject out the back of their cases. Called Armscor and they weren't interested in the problem. It was a real disappointment for me. I returned the barrel and said forget it. Never shot it again. It doesn't help that they came out with 2 versions of 22 TCM.... the stabdard and the 22 TCM 9 for 9mm conversations. At one point Classic Firearms had a plethora of 22 TCM rifles. Almost bought one for fun. After seeing the over-pressure of their rounds in the pistols, glad I didn't. I honestly hope Armscor/ RIA does well with their new 5.0. It looks awesome. I hope the quality is better than my previous experience with them. I do know many people who love their RIA pistols. Another round I hope sees a long life is the .327 Fed Mag.
I also bought the conversion kit from RIA for my CA roster Gen3 G17. Problem is I can't find .22TCM9R ammo available anywhere. I have plenty of 22TCM ammo for my RIA Tactical 22TCM/9mm combo pistol that I had to SSE back when Californians had that option. I'd really like to find some of the 9R so I can actually try out the conversion.
Have a ruger in 5.7 x 28 have had no problems but wanted a TCM and 9mm barrel in the 17 rd gun so I could chamber it in 38 super. Guess I'll stop looking. I have already started building a comb 1911 in 6 in. with Wilson nolan ramped barrels in 10mm and 38 sup. Will be my.5th 10mm 2nd 38sup. Built a 460 Rowland and love it. Great explanations about the two. Now I have to sell some 22 TCM ammo I bought in preparation.
MAC, I have shot both calibers and from a carry standpoint the 22TCM is so loud that it is not something I'd want to shoot without hearing protection defensively. The object of a defensive weapon is to stop a threat; not take yourself out because your equilibrium is disrupted.. On another note, I have not shot the PSA Rock, but I have shot the new S&W and the Ruger 5.7 offerings, as well as, the OG FN, and I have to say that out of those 3, the S&W is by far my favorite. It has some things going on in its design that are not only intriguing from an innovative manufacturing perspective but also takes an already soft shooting caliber and makes it that much softer and smoother performing. I think once you give it a run the PSA may take a second place standing. The thing that the Rock has advantage wise over all of them is its relatively low retail cost. If you are looking for a 5.7 on a miniscule budget the PSA is definitely going to be the way to go; however, if you have close to 700 to spend and are looking at the S&W and Ruger, IMO the S&W is a far better way to go. Will be anxious to see if you share that sentiment.
The term you're looking for is sectional density. It's the one of, if not the biggest, determining factors in penetration. It's the reason that heavy-for-caliber rounds tend to penetrate greater than lighter rounds. One can play tricks and mess with bullet material to play with the numbers, but it follows the same argument as 'there's no replacement for displacement'
I bought a NOE mold from Al that drops a 39 Grn and put a aluminum GC on it and your at 40-41grns depending on your lead alloy and I have had nothing but excellent results with my Glock 17 conversion barrel and spring.
The above comment was in regard to the 22 TCM 9R Cartridge,you can shoot the 22 TCM 9R in a regular 22 TCM but not the other way around because the 22 TCM is longer in length
I tried using the 22 TCM 9R, which is the version of the 22 TCM designed to work in standard 9mm length actions like the Glock. I tried the Glock 17 and 19 conversion kits, as well as the RIA MAPP pistol, which is supposed to run the 22 TCM 9R cartridge specifically. I couldn't get it to work reliably in any of them. Failure to feed, short stroking, failure to extract... You name it, all of them did it. Part of me suspects that the factory ammunition is very inconsistent. But at this point it doesn't matter. I can't get it to work so I don't bother using it. I went and got a FiveseveN, and just use that instead. Yes, the ammunition costs more. But it is utterly reliable.
Maybe Panzer Arms could research making an upper similar to the AR57 upper to chamber the 22TCM using a similar magazine and setup. That would cut down the blast and utilize the powder that is being wasted out the barrel. See how that makes it perform.
Been saying for year that i'm more impressed with the 22 tcm then the 5.7. Think i even mentioned it on your channel few times. Only reason 5.7 is taking off cause it has military backing.
I tend to agree with your comment. 5.7 is a military caliber. TCM was never supposed to be a competitor to the 5.7. It was designed to be a very versatile varmint/light defensive multi-purpose caliber for the CIVILIAN market. I doubt Craig/Tuason even considered “being a competitor” to any other particular round. Otherwise, Armscor would have developed a semi-auto carbine for the round (which would be a very cool addition).
those 2 cals to me seem ONLY for people who think the 9mm has to much recoil. you show these being shot out of FULL size guns and in full size guns 9mm is a sweet heart that has great ballistics. love innovation and i dig nitch or boutique stuff but for everyday in a full size gun 9mm is hard to beat
![Is 5.7x28mm Just Overpriced .22 Magnum? [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9sBMgau4ew/mqdefault.jpg)
![Is 5.7x28mm Just Overpriced .22 Magnum? [Part 1]](/img/tr.png)
FYI the double stack 17rd 22TCM FS 1911 is still made and sold. I recently bought one (two mags supplied) from Sportsman's Warehouse, and, my experience (not just an opinion) is that it has so far proved to be flawlessly reliable and very accurate. Like 38 Super, it isn't widely stocked ammo, true, but I've found it on the shelves of some gun shops, and I've ordered it in bulk from both Cabelas and Sportsmans Warehouse at half the price of 5.7x28! At 74 y.o. I no longer handle the bigger bore handguns as well as I once did, so the light recoiling 22TCM is a welcome addition to my choice of EDCs. The 22TCM FS double stack is certainly not a toy, it is seriously all business, and the penetration capabilities of the lead hollow point round on soft body armor can be improved (if required) by reloading with pointed copper bullets. The conversion kit with a 9mm Glock reportedly has its issues, and also chambers a shortened version of the 22TCM round called TCM9R. To say the noise and muzzle blast of 22TCM is a con, really is a "con" when you promote shooting pistols chambered in 10mm. How many rounds of 10mm do you put through your pistol at any one range session? I shoot my 22TCM a lot, and thoroughly enjoy it! Also, compare some of the videos out there exposing the reliability and functionality of some of those 5.7 pistols you claim are better. BTW one can take advantage of the Armscor deal (like I did) to provide proof of your 2024 purchase of a 22TCM FS 1911and get a free double stack 17rd mag along with 100 rounds of ammo.
The TCM came out in 2009. Why do you say 74 years?
@@Inflorescensse That's my age. Grammar now edited to avoid that confusion.
@@Inflorescensse he's 74 yrs old not the bullet. thats why he likes the recoil of the TCM
The 22TCM is an underrated round that suffers from bad marketing. I would have named it the 223micro.
I was hoping it would catch on just for the fact that I could use cut down 223 brass and reload it
Or 5.56 x 24 that's what I load in the tcm cases. 40grn 5.56 projectiles...1850fps out of a Glock 19 ...😳
The only people that know about it are the people that know about it. 😁
RIA does need to get the word out.
If they made a rip off of the mp7 chambered in 22 Tcm I would buy one
@@stoltzld80 that’s the same velocity i get from my 5.7.
You really need a 5.7 platform to bring out the best in the 22 TCM.
The magazine length of the 5.7 is what’s needed to optimize 22tcm
I actually have both. The 5.7 Rock is incredible in every way except ammo cost, additionally it's full size makes it an awkward choice for me other then when I am fully dressed (like a suit) in winter gear. For the 22TCM9R, I have the MAPP edition which is built by Tanfoglio under license by Armscor/Rock Island. This is essentially a compact 9mm Tanfoglio Witness (DASA) in 22TCM9R and uses a 16 round magazine that fits any 9mm CZ. The MAPP is a CZ clone in nature and has been incredibly reliable and handles the 22TCM9R round which is 39gr vs 40. I have carried the 22TCM (same as my G19) with just a shirt or tee on, not going to happen with the Roc (a full 8 vs 6.75in).
5.7x28 is making huge gains as of lately. Lots of new guns chambered in the caliber and PSA ammo coming in line. These factors will be the death of .22 TCM
Its also a NATO adopted cartridge
RIA should have just adopted the 5.7x28 instead of trying to recreate the wheel with the 22 TCM, had they introduced Armscore 5.7x28 ammunition along with a budget friendly 5.7 pistol instead of the 22 TCM they would have beaten Ruger, S&W, and PSA to market with a budget friendly firearm in an area of the market with FN being their only over priced competitor for at least a couple of years while Ruger and the others were still doing R&D.
.22tcm will always be more popular with reloaders and wildcat types. Its just more interesting, more to be explored, more common brass n bullets that will always be accessible. Now people are messing with 5.56×24.
But i agree it will never be a favorite to folks susceptible to marketing ploys and just wanna jam a round in a hole that fits n pull the trigger without putting much thought into it.
@@notchagrandpa8875 can't knock FN's pricing, they were first and were the only ones on market for a while, so of course they were going to ask a premium there. I'm just hoping 2023-2024 sees them realize they can no longer price like that and adjusting.
They only know how to make 1911s and 5.7 is too long to fit in one
Not so much applicable in the USA but in other countries where you have to register each gun or where there is a limit to the number of guns that can be owned, a multi-caliber gun can be very beneficial and a huge PRO for the cartridge.
Yeah, not as much here. I know it's one reason the CZ 455/455 series is so popular because one rifle is 4 calibers and multiple barrel lengths. In the US multi caliber weapons don't take off as much, with maybe the only real exception being the 300 BLK.
Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Cares
@@Wardinson I CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Having a single stack magazine for such a small caliber round is self-defeating, since one of the advantages of going small is having more shots in the magazine.
My 22 TCM mags hold 15 or 17 rounds...
@@bluepunk182 MAC said they don't make that double column magazine M1911 anymore.
There's barrel kit conversions. I know that there's a video of one in a glock.
So in that particular case, yeah.. use ur glock mags, and capacity isn't an issue.
Cheaper than buying a new gun too. Less restrictive as there's no background check involved. ;-)
@Sean Price maybe not, but at what price? If people aren't going to pay the price for what's still available, why bother? Same with acquiring the tooling and any required production rights necessary to make them yourself.
Well, if one is going to the bowels of mindanao where clan warfare is still a thing, yes less rounds in the mag is quite a disadvantage. But for self-defense purposes? I doubt those on the receiving end of the 22TCM barrel will retain the courage to push on after hearing its insanely loud report. One would think they're up against someone carrying a rifle.
I had a Rock Island TCM Tactical when they first came out and it performed flawlessly
Mine performs flawlessly also, double stack one of the first available, the fireball is impressive I will admit.
It saddens me that you said “had”, why “had”? Nice to see another Air Cav trooper!!
@@txvet7738 one of those stupid moments in life. TAC Ultra FS HC 22TCM/9mm 17rd, UGH! AIR CAV! Now you have looking for a replacement. Can't have too many. ;)
I think Tim's point was that it's a single provider solution for that ammo, and being as such, the gun needs to run flawlessly for HIM. Whether it's the mag, or the gun, HIS model consistently malfunctions at that one spot. Armscor makes value grade guns. And for what they are, they're pretty good. But they're also made by robots in a very modern facility - which is why Tim stressed the importance of hand-fitting.
@@toddfeltman3748 ahh, did not know that. Not digging on him though. Just pointing out that mine worked well but they don't make mine anymore. I bought one of the first ones that came out with the 22tcm and the 9mmm conversion
One pro for the 22tcm is that it doubles as a flashbang in close quarters combat in the dark.
… that works both ways
VERY true
Yes it does. Out of my Glock 19 it throws a fireball.
I mean.. same with a 357 sig, 9x25, 400 corbon.. and so on and so forth, no?
If you need to go from light to dark, maintain night vision, or any other applicable situation, close an eye before making the bright thing happen.
I have the RIA TAC Ultra 22TCM/9MM combo, love this firearm and it is a flamethrower!!!! I have toyed with the idea of getting a 5.7x28, (and it would be the PSA) but the price of the ammo has kept me from doing so.(so far) Great video Tim.
Ballistic advantage over 22 WMR slight and cost of ammo nearly triple. Reasons I opted for the KEL TEC PMR 30. Runs 50 grain Game Shok flawlessly.
Seriously considering the CMR 30.
Here in Utah, I always see TCM on the shelves. I recently bought a used double stack 9mm/TCM 1911. Now looking for their bolt action rifle for coyotes. The only thing I wish from Armscor is that they would produce a light AP round in TCM. Here is my “two cents:” 5.7 is a tactical caliber. TCM is a versatile multi-purpose caliber, perfect for varmint control, super fun at the range, and a capable defensive round if you choose to use it.
LIGHT armor piercing? The standard round will go through quarter inch steel
They should make the 22 tcm in a long slide pistol. Eek out a little more velocity, would be cool I think.
The bolt action is really nice. Mine is right at MOA. Works great on prairie dogs out to 200 yards.
The problem is, it barely has enough to cycle the heavy 5" slide on a regular 1911. (It uses a 7lb recoil spring)
Who is "they" ?
@@ccompson2 I think He Who Ceases means Rock Island Armory.
@@PatriotPaulUSA That makes me wonder. How would it perform in a conversion kit, on something that has a lighter slide? Such as say just for SnG's a race gun, or one of the competition Canik's? Where you could also tune the recoil spring?
22 magnum, especially with rounds like federal punch, is becoming a really cool little round in all these new pistols like the Walther and the Keltecs out there.
Still rimfire all those issues with reliability
@@newerest1 22 wmr has basically none of the issues 22 lr has. its a way more modern and reliable design.
@@muffinxcancer still just by the priming method its not as reliable
I have a Grendel P30 (pre-Kel-Tec). 30 rounds of 22 mag are a lot of fun. Been tweaking mine for 30m years so it's almost reliable.
@@newerest1 22 magnum ammo tends to be much higher quality, and that being said, I wouldn't use any 22 for self defense.
I've been pretty happy with my PSA 5.7 Rock. I had a few attempts at the gun trying to load 2-3 rounds at a time, but that seems to have fixed itself with use. Fun to suppress. Shoots accurately.
I think that a 5.7 chambered pistol is probably the best option for a school resource officer. Light recoiling, inherent accuracy, ability to defeat armor with the proper loads, super flat shooting. All those characteristics IMO mean that if you’re in an active shooter situation responding as the first armed person, the assailant is possibly at the end of a a hallway, or across a larger classroom where a traditional handgun cartridge is going to be less forgiving of a first round hit. Bad guys are wearing body armor more often, at decent distances the 5.7 will still reliably defeat most soft armor easily with even standard ammunition. With special or more exotic ammo even some hard armor is not a match.
If 5.7 was as ubiquitous as 9mm today then I’d completely switch over to it as my daily EDC gun. Till it’s at least as common and cheap as any of the 40-45’ calibers I’ll wait.
Just bought a NEW double stack. I honestly think you have the single double issue backwards. There are also barrel kits for Glock that fire 22T9R.a round made specific for 9mm mag well. Just an fyi. Great vid
You did hit nail on head about it basically being a fun range gun. I've had 2, they are great for instruction and getting a new shooter over the noise flinch.
It’s awesome seeing 5.7x28mm and 10MM gaining traction/availability. But even so, I’m gravitating back towards 9x19mm and .22LR due to the current climate.
Necked pistol rounds, really need more love
Make 357 sig great again
9x25mm Dillon. It's like 9mm, but for men.
See, 10mm isn't the only caliber with a sense of humour.
Wildcat rounds baby!
7.62x25mm anyone?
@@panzerabwerkanone SW could have made a pistol for that instead of the 30 sc.
Twenty years or so ago there was a gunsmith in Louisiana that necked down a 9x23 to .22 and called it the .22 Zipperer. I always thought it was a super cool concept and wanted one badly. Before that Jeff Cooper talked about how a center fire .22 at around 2000 FPS would make a dandy trail gun or maybe for self defense. I really never liked the FN 5.7x28 cartridge or pistol. When RIA came out with the 22TCM I was ecstatic. I was finally able to purchase a .22/9mm combo. I’m not disappointed, the performance and fireball are great fun and recoil is basically non-existent, and the 1911 configuration makes it that much better. I just wish that RIA would get SAAMI to standardize the cartridge, as it stands it’s a lot cheaper to shoot than 5.7x28.
Love your stuff brother. I own the .22TCM rifle. Great coyote slayer to 150 so far. Tack driver accuracy.
That's my experience too.
It’s not a bad caliber by any means, unfortunately it’s just not popular and hasn’t caught on with any major ammo or gun manufacturers. 5.7 gaining popularity is probably pretty much killing it now unfortunately
I want one!
wait wtf there's a 22tcm carbine/rifle? I need that.
Trouble with .22 TCM in a rifle:
.22 Hornet
.222 Remington
.223 Remington
.22 Nosler
.22-250 Remington
.220 Swift
My RIA 9mm/22TCM has been a champ. I also fitted a 38 Super barrel to it. A tiny bit of filing on the mag floor plate fixed the lock open with one round thing. With the trigger and action job done it’s as sweet as any 1911 that costs much more
I would be interested on doing the same thing. Would love to be able to have 38 Super Barrel. Would love to get your information who did the work for you? I would be very interested on getting fitted for that Barrel as well. Any information would be appreciated👍🏻👍🏻
@@louisfeuer9714 I did the fitting work on a used barrel from the gun show. It went really well, I had to do a tiny amount of fine file work inside the slide (the rim on 38 super was dragging and binding up the slide). Twenty minutes of file work and the 9mm recoil spring and she runs 38 Super👌
@@mshort7087 where would I find a 38 Super Barrel that would be able to fit the Rock Island? Or would the barrel have to be custom made?
@@louisfeuer9714 I used a standard GI 1911 5” barrel that I bought off a table at a gun show (used for like $90, I think). The barrel links come in like 5 different lengths, a mid length worked well for mine. Check out 1911 barrel fitting videos here on the tube or get a book by Jerry Kuhnhausen “The Colt .45 Automatic a Shop Manual”. It’s not difficult work.
@@mshort7087 thank you so much for the information my friend.👍🏻👍🏻 definitely going to seek that out.
I would totally get into 22 TCM if there were more ammo options!
For me there needs to be more ammo options and more platforms. Look 1911 is cool and all but still it gets boring really fast. A S&W M&P 2.0 that shoots 22 TCM would be nice to have.
For me, the problem is the guns not the ammo. I like the round, and the price per round isn't terrible already. The problem is that the take up of the round by gun makers isn't high. Just like the fkbrno (that name lol), the round has awesome performance potential, but until it gets wide production acceptance, there's not much you can do
I would really like to see some solid copper rounds
@@SCH292 There is a Glock barrel conversion for the 22TCM, but I don’t know how reliable it is. Just throwing that out there.
If you reload you can kinda make your own , I bought 1200 rounds of 22TCM for under 400.00 shipped to my door. That is cheap at 33 cents a round. It cant really push a heavier bullet so its kinda 40 grain or smaller weight to me. It really is a great gun and a fun cartridge to shoot. Thats about all 5.7 is to me too. I also bought 1200 rounds of nickel plated 22tcm cases with primers installed in the middle of ammogeddon for under 199.00. Its not a round that should be loaded by beginners tho because of the high chamber pressures.
The TCM must be mismarketed or misunderstood.
It’s cool though. Thanks!
I had no idea what it was.
One problem I've noted with the .22 TCM is the fact that there is plenty of exposed, soft lead that catches on the feed ramp pretty easily during feeding. That being said, the last time I took it out, it worked a lot better than when I first got it. I've handloaded for it as well and the loads worked fine, but the bullets had to be seated very deeply, so bullet choices are limited to lighter weight and/or stubby in profile. EDIT: The trigger on the Rock Island pistol is excellent in my opinion, better than my other 1911 type pistols.
Note: using low end 5.7 ammo: It seems that the high end 5.7 ammo combined with an 8" barrel ( or more ) is the sweet spot for 5.7
Everything you said about the .22TCM was said about the 5.7 when it was first released for the commercial market. It will be interesting to see what the future holds for the .22TCM.
It certainly has a future with me since you can cast a gazillion bullets for the 22 TCM9R very cheaply and make GCs out of aluminum cans and roughly 10-12 grns of H110 or W296 and a small pistol primer equates to shooting it extremely cheap something you cant do with the 5.7.The 5.7 is an awesome caliber but the reloading process is a little more tedious than the 22 TCM or TCM 9R
.22TCM bullets also are loaded to . 223 Cases for cheaper practice rounds for AR-15.
@@luburan1973Man you just got me drooling for a .22TCM PCC. That would actually be viable over 9mm. .22TCM out of a 12inch barrel would be amazing.
@@9unslin9er what is the point of a PCC . 22TCM when all you need is to reload you 5.56 cases with . 22TCM bullets. No need for a new barrel, receiver and magazine.
@@luburan1973 The point is you can have a smaller reciever. Less weight more handy. .22TCM has far less recoil, so it wouldn't need a buffer tube system. *It could run in a Ruger PC Carbine, without a longstroke gas system. The recoil spring in a RIA .22TCM is 7lbs. Far less than what's needed for 9mm (13lbs)
I love How he left out the 22TCM9R which was made for G19/G17 and only needs a new barrel
Glad I'm not the only one who was going to mention this. Also, the RIA MAPP pistol is a more modernized pistol that is double stack .22 TCM/9mm convertible.
They just pushed the bullet deeper restricting the powder capacity and power. It is the cartridge they should have developed more and released first with SAAMI specs.
Also as an owner of a RIA MAPP 22TCM9R. I agree the 22TCM9R Is overlooked. Mine is a fire breathing dragon. Glad I picked it up when I did. Most didn't even know the pistol or round exists.
Take a Meta Tactical glock bullpup conversion but make the 16" barrel 22tcm. Tame the fireball and get the extra fps
@@charlesmckinley29 Yep! and if you look around some smart guy's on forums found a way to load more common .224 projectiles into the 9R without seating it too lown down. I think it was on glock forums?
I've never watched a video from you that felt like it was as long as the timer says. Very informative and entertaining. Thanks MAC
Whoa! Hold up! You mean to tell me that a company that is mostly known for making 1911s with an average MSRP of $758.50 doesn't have as good of a quality control department as a company that specializes in making 1911s with an average MSRP of $2004.24?
What's next? Telling us that an off-the-shelf .308 Savage Axis with an old Tasco scope won't be as accurate as a custom-built chassis system rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor with a Zeiss scope. Give us some warning when you get to that one. Wouldn't want anyone to die of shock or anything.
Bit of a nitpick: Just because the newer cartridge is longer doesn't automatically mean that the older cartridge can't be the parent case. The .38 Special is the parent case of the .357 Magnum, which is itself the parent case for the .357 Remington Maximum, and the .38 Special is the shortest case of that bunch.
The .44 Russian is the parent case for the .44 Special, and the .44 Special is the parent case for the .44 Magnum.
The parent case for the .308 Winchester is the .300 Savage, which is based on the .250 Savage, both of which are shorter than the .308 Winchester.
I could probably dig around and find more examples if I really needed to, but these were the examples that immediately came to mind.
I feel bad for the 22tcm. It has a lot of potential, but it just doesn't have the manufacturer support. Get a little bit of marketing support from one or two big manufacturers and it would really take off.
For me, the two things that interest me in the 22TCM are
1. The grip of a pistol will mirror that of a 9mm. I have large hands but short fingers so I prefer a a smaller grip that isn't very deep(?) from the back to front strap. Hence why I haven't found any 5.7 handguns to feel good in my hands.
2. The potential in a light, handy bolt action or semi auto carbine/rifle. If you can get upwards of 2800 FPS out of a carbine or 20" barrel, you are looking at a potentially fantastic varmit gun, more power than a 22 WRM with the (assumed) ability to handload/reload. That is definitely a potentially winning idea, especially if it can be paired with a handgun that could share ammo. Imagine a lightened Ruger PC carbine and Glock/M&P/Sig combo for a ranch, bugout, of survival combo.
Something that I would definitely like to see.
@jmg617 - RIA/Armscor make a bolt-action which fires the 22 TCM, in case you are interested. I don't have experience with it, but it was on their website last I saw.
Sold my .22TCM not too long ago.. fireball for sure and low recoil that is about it.. I had extraction issues and mag we troublesome but in the end was not worth the expense.
i have the same issues, sent the pistol back twice to Nevada for fixing, they said it worked fine but it never has been able to shoot more than one magazine full without a failure to extract. Now i just use it as a 9mm as i have the dual caliber kit when i bought it.
I did have some extraction issues in my .22 TCM, but that was only when I fired the 9R round in it. Locked it up and I had to use a cleaning rod to punch the fired case out. No such problems with the standard TCM ammo.
5.7 has finally become mainstream and I'm so happy about it!
On the projectile expansion, the TCM appears circular, and the 5.7 more square. If you took the area given the measurements of each, the TCM comes out with a larger area.
Of course, all the other lingering issues of TCM still apply. It's neat, but I doubt anyone else will ever pick it up.
I got the 22TCM conversion for one of my Glocks, not as a defensive caliber (I have that covered) but as a variable for the range or possibly a trail critter load. No reliability issues yet & lots of fun!
The 22 tcm is awesome. I have it in the Glock model wich takes the 22 tcm R to fit the Glock 9mm mags. And a rock island wich takes the 22 tcm and is in the awesome wide body 20+ rd mags and with just a barrel change you can swap to 9mm and still enjoy the rock island elite model. The best part is that rock island also makes a bull barrel bolt action rifle wich takes the 20+ rd pistol mags and it is accurate and squeezes more velocity out of the round.
You should have added these points into the video. Also the 22 tcm isn’t a new idea. They just perfected it. Before the 22 tcm was the 224 BOZ wich was a necked down 10mm to 22 cal or something like that.
And if the only reliability issue with a sample size of one is a 5 to 10 min tuning of the slide lock thats not bad. I have had both models of the rock island and neither have ever had a hiccup. But yes they arent a staccato or even a Springfield prot but it also is only 500 to 600$. And the rifle is really is nice and to have a nice long range bolt gun that uses the same mags. The Glock model wich is the 22tcm R I built myself and it works so good it is my go to rig pistol.
That being said I love the 5.7x 28 is awesome too. That is why I almost have all the pistols that shoot it and a p 90 wich is so much fun. But I will say that the price of the 5.7x28 ammo is ridicules and it should I way be 50 to 60$ a box. Let’s hope when PSA get their brass & steel cased ammo they will crank out affordable and reliable ammo for the 5.7 , 556, 762, 5.45 ext and others and allow people to get out shooting more.
The 5.7 handguns only make sense if you can get the good ammo like Elite ammunition. But they're not even making ammo right now because they can't seem to get materials. Until PSA starts cranking out ammo and brings the price of plinking ammo down and comes out with penetrator rounds it's not really going to explode like it could.
EA does ammo drops every couple months. They just released a batch of S4 on Feb 15th. They only announce it on their youtube channel.
Yep....S4 has come up now and then.
Even the nerfed 5.7mm rounds have objectively proven themselves to be pretty lethal in a certain infamous shooting. The majority of complaints about ineffectiveness are mostly from unverified, "trust me bro" internet forum anecdotes.
@ostiariusalpha Anything can be effective when shooting fish in a barrel. The case you speak of nobody could defend themselves. They were executed. That doesn't mean 5.7 is great a defensive round. What happened at Ft. Hood could have been accomplished with a .22lr.
@@TheCowboyfromhell87 Whether they were armed or not is irrelevant, all the victims that were killed had died from a single shot to center mass. That's objectively effective for any pistol round.
If 22 TCM got any of the marketing or support anywhere near 5.7, it would hands down be the better cartridge. It has better performance, you can load any number of 223/556 bullets into it, so it would always be on top. 5.7 just has the casing diameter going for it, meaning more rounds in a mag.
Imagine one of these in a pocket pistol like a P365 or Hellcat. Just imagine any other platform with 22 TCM as the cartridge. There are glock conversions, but those suffer from reliability issues from what I've found online, because the slides are too heavy if I'm correct. As well as a slightly different chambering, 22 TCM9R.
Even that "advantage" is insignificant. A 21rd G17 Magpul holds 22rds of TCM and is about 3/8" taller than a 20rd 5.7 mag (about what you'd expect for 22 vs 20 in the same caliber).
That glock slide isn't as heavy as a 1911 slide I am sure. It does use a 7lb recoil spring, so if the glock slide isn't smooth enough cycling it would be bad , I can see that.
The 22 Spitfire (5.7 Johnson) lives on.
The expanded surface area of the 22 TCM would be greater than that of the 5.7. The 22TCM was more circular with an area of 0.066 sq-in while the 5.7 was more closely to that of a square shape where you measured the hypotenuse, thus having an area of 0.048 sq-in.
When they announced the tcm I was Soooo looking forward to it and I just KNEW this exact scenario of one source for ammo and guns would play out. I wish the big names came out promoting it initially so it could have gotten a better start.
Its ALL because of SAAMI certification. If RIA would submit it for SAAMI cert then others could make it. Since they wont ,nobody else can,
Yep RIA killed it before it even got started. Dumb, dumb, dumb
I bought so much 229R during the pandemic lol was always in stock and the price didn't fluctuate much
I once saw one of the bolt action rifles in a local gun shop and handled it for a few minutes. It surprisingly had one best triggers I had ever felt on a simple production gun. I was so impressed I almost bought the gun just because of the trigger. But having a 17hmr and 22mag rifles I talked myself out of the "need".
I believe the RIA 5.0 is going to be available in .22tcm9r also available will be a 2.5 pound trigger. The owner of RIA said these things at shot show. Didn’t say how long till market of course.
The 22TC9r is a special rounded nose 39 grain for the glock. I'm pretty sure the 5.0 will be in the regular 22tcm
@@PatriotPaulUSA If they are smart about it the 5.0 should run the regular 22tcm so it will be capable of running both.
22 tcm would be awesome out of a reliable firearm. I just don't want to jump on board when RIA is the only handgun offering 22 tcm as a chambering.
The billing is that you only need to swap the barrel and recoil spring (easy to do in a 1911, basically field strip and swap) to change it into a 9mm. That was the only reason I thought it was kinda cool, if .22 TCM ever goes away, just swap your barrel and shrug. If you buy a 5.7, it's a 5.7 and that's what it is.
Don't be mislead the RIA 1911's are very well made and lifetime gauranteed to whoever owns it, even if you didn't buy it new. His little slide stop issue is because he hasn't taken care of it. Also the 1911 he has is their bottom tier model.
@@tedhodge4830 I believe it has a ramped barrel Clark ramp i think
Tcm all the way for me. I have owned both but not at the same time but I preferred the TCM by far. If people would just give it a chance, then more guns and ammo would be made.
It's just not going to happen, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it personally.
Same here. I have the Rock Island and owned the Ruger 57. The only thing 5.7 has going for it is mag capacity.
I got a Rock Island Armory 22 TCM barrel and spring kit for my Glock 19.
Jams fairly regularly so not something I would carry for self defense.
But man does the 22 TCM have a presence at the range. Muzzle blast the size of a watermelon! And the BOOM is epic.
BTW, the PSA Rock 5.7 pistol is currently on clearance on their website for $299!!!
I just ordered 2 more…
I saw the Psa add online
Are those pistols any good
I’ve always wanted a 5.7 but the Fn was out of budget for me and I have the KelTec Pmr and the Cmr for less than the Fn
They run flawlessly
Have you looked into the 22tcm9r ammo? It is intended for use in the glock conversion. The 22tcm9r bullet is seated deeper in the case than the standard 22tcm. They did this in order to make it feed more reliably in 9mm magazines. The downfall is, you're not likely to find it on the shelf of your local gun store. If you find some, you might want to try it.
@@ruthlessone3k That’s what I’m using. The standard 22 TCM won’t fit.
The issue seems to be that the spring is just a tad too light.
@@keywestfan2503 22TCM9R IS UNRELIABLE ... THE REAL 22 TCM PROBABLY WON'T HAVE SUCH ISSUES
@@Bones6987I don't know if you got your answer by now but I don't have a PSA but I've hot Ruger 5.7s. I have watched countless videos on 5.7s and 3 different videos was comparing different brand 5.7s. The PSA done good until they got into the smaller grain bullets which have over 2000 fps and the PSA didn't just jam but the guns were messed up so bad it was over for them and they had to send them back to PSA to be fixed if able to. Smith and Wesson jammed a few times but that could've been ammo but they used same ammo for testing. Ruger and FN there wasn't a problem. I got my Ruger 2 1/2 years ago and have shot a lot of rounds out of it and several different grains and I haven't had 1 jam or problem at all. So hopefully this will help you but I hope I'm not to late.
Wish we had more market support for the TCM. It's a good cartridge. And I love the convertible 9mm guns that RIA made to go with them. Fantastic concept that fell out of style bc of poor marketing along with Armscors refusal to allow other companies to load it.
I used to see 22TCM in Cabela's every time I walked in, but that was pre pandemic. TBH, I haven't noticed it in a while, but then again, I haven't been looking for it either so... yeah.
And TCMs operating pressures, still aren't as high as 30soup. Another reason why I don't see the super carry making too long either, (unless the industry keeps cramming it down everyone's throats, then folks will be sorta forced to accept it).
I still wouldn't mind seeing more 357sig though 🤔
I'd like to see .30 SC in a Hi-Power, like the 7.92 VBR demonstration model. The gun already has slim mags to keep the grip narrow and that limits the 9mm capacity very harshly, but .30 SC being narrower could squeeze more rounds around the Hi-Power's limitations.
I love the 357 Sig, and I don't even carry one. LOL. Out of $$ for tritium sights and a good holster. It is a whiz-bang manstopper, likely better than the 40 Smith I carry with Gold Dot 165gr.
Contrary to popular belief, advertising doesn't actually force you to buy things.
@@edgarburlyman738 With some people, you really have to wonder.
The .30SC's operating pressure is a complete non-issue except to people with a Fudd mentality.
Now do 4.6x30 HK and cringe even harder
The MP7 is overrated, I shot one in Vegas and people have this really high view of it because they’re so rare.
The big issue is CMMG is the only company that offers a gun in it for us normals.
@@gifthorse3675 I think the mp7(and the p90, despite the bad triggers, especially on the latter) are possibly the coolest/most fun machine guns to shoot. Probably not the greatest PDWs/sub guns on earth, but fun nonetheless(though I'm realizing now that "cool" or "fun to shoot" are probably not the metrics you were using to gauge how overrated they are or are not.
At least it comes in a cool gun, the MP7. Not some import budget 1911 in a dead cartridge.
I love my 22TCM/ 9mm 1911. I got mine not long after they came out.
17 +1 is a win IMO.
I had the same issue with the last round so I sent it back to Armscor and they fixed the issue.
I have a Para Ordinance 14/ 45 as well.
The 22 TCM 9R is a shorter version of the 22 TCM and the 9R can be used in Glock conversions for this caliber. The malfunction is a magazine/slide stop issue and could be easily corrected by a competent gunsmith. Armscor also has a very good warranty service.
Competent gunsmith= guy in garage with dremel 😂😎👍
@@thegoodlife7337 can't dremel the slide stop. It has to be filed very carefully. Too much material taken from that tab will create more problems.
They have an awesome warranty, I shipped them my TCM and they fixed all feed/last round issues and threw in 4 free mags.
Also for people who reload, the TCM round can be made from 223/5.56 brass. And how much dinged neck and shoulder 5.56 brass have you seen at the range?
Still love .22tcm, n am happy to see someone talkin about it.
5.7 has a few decades on it
I have a T/C Contender 14" 22 Jet barrel that is fun to shoot. With handloads and soft, cast bullets, it is one of my fav close range, rock chuck shooting set ups. On my parent's place in Idaho, the 'chucks get under the rocks, buildings, and eat a lot of alfalfa. The little 22 Jet does not make a lot of noise, and if I miss, the soft lead bullets just flatten on the rocks and I don't have to worry too much about ricochets. With a 5.7x28, I would worry about bouncing rounds off rocks and into my parent's farm critters, buildings, expensive machinery or the roadway.
Hi Mac I live in Michigan and have a . 22 tcm rifle. I could bring it down to you to shoot if you're interested, if not no worries. Excellent content.
The three limiting factors of firepower: Rate of fire , Combat range, Terminal effect. Make all of your decisions on an aggregate of these three. Personally I don't even want to be hit by an air rifle pellet. So go ahead and make all the overblown comparisons you like. You are better off armed than unarmed. Good video, thanks for all you do.
I really can't believe that Tim neglected the aftermarket conversion kits for the 22tcm.
I have yet to see one that works. I have 3, all installed by professional gunsmith. Not a single one can make it through a complete magazine without a malfunction.
@@chrisr251 If you honestly paid a professional gunsmith to put a barrel and recoil spring into your pistols... then as a shooter, I'm finding it difficult to take you seriously.
I had a professional install them after I couldn't get them to work. And because that was what RIA told me I needed to do before I could get them to refund my money for their product not working. So I got reimbursed for it along with the refund. But when two different gunsmiths are unable to get what is supposed to be a drop-in kit to work, there is something wrong with the kit. When it is three different kits, for both Glocks, and RIA's own MAPP, which is supposed to actually use the cartridge, something is very wrong with the kits.
I came here to say exactly this. I saw a guy put a conversion barrel in his Browning Hi Power and it works great.
@@chrisr251 Ah. Ok. I understand now. Thank you for the explanation. I apologize. I'd not have said what I said if I had known that the manufacturer had told you to do so. Particularly if you'd said that they'd mandated it in order to get a refund.
I can understand how you would Not be happy about That. Additional cost, mandated on a product that doesn't work!
I am really wondering if it is a platform issue. What kind of pistol was your kit for?
There's vids of Glock kits that work. 1ShotTV has one such video.
If Armscore would make a barrel for the long slide large frame glocks, it would do everything. The 22TCM9R for Glock 17s is a lot of fun and works flawlessly.
I love the concept of the 22 tcm and 9 mm combo. I just wish it was made more plentiful across other manufacturers. Hopefully it survives, but I guess I won't hold my breath.
6.5x25 CBJ fits the bill as well, but unfortunately it's unavailable where the TCM is just uncommon.
22tcm has been around for 10 years now. I've had one since they came out, the doublestack 1911 is a fantastic gun with an excellent trigger. 22tcm destruction is something you have to experience, 9mm pokes holes in stuff, tcm annihilates it. I have a rock 5.7 too, and the 5.7 just doesn't blow stuff up the same way.
Agree the 68 gr XD bullet loaded by Underwood is everything you say it is at the 6:30 mark. The Underwood 357 Sig XD 68gr round at a real world velocity of 2200 + fps and 765 ft. lbs. of energy smokes the 9mm and 5.7 in over all performance.
Availability really holds the TCM back. I've never seen it on a shelf and it's out of stock any time I check online stores
There’s so many different 5.7x28 rounds from AP ammo/ FMJ/ hollow points/ polymer tips/ you have the gold dots/ some sub sonic hollow points that open up bigger than a 25cent us Quarter/ you even have Special frangible rounds that break into 3 peace’s I love 57
Glad to see more and cheaper loads available on the market for the 5.7x28. Not a huge fan of pistols in that caliber but the Ruger LC carbine makes a nice truck gun. Needs a better trigger but it has promise.
Interesting, I have kind of the opposite opinion when it comes to 5.7x28 and think the Ruger LC carbine is an odd choice for the caliber. The way I see it it seems weird to go for a full sized rifle at 20rd capacity in 5.7 when 5.56 exists to fill the small, fast, and light recoiling rifle space, and the biggest pro of 5.7 is the ability to fit in a pistol where there are few cartridges like .22 TCM that fill a similar niche. As a companion that takes the same magazines as the pistol I could see the value, but if you were to pick 1 gun why the LC carbine? It feels like there are plenty of foldable and bullpup alternatives in 5.56 if you're looking at 5.7 from the standpoint of only having a full length rifle in the caliber.
Yeah it's $1000 truck gun! Does it do anything more than a Keltec/Glock combo? and since AP ammo is not readily on the market for 5.7X28 wouldn't you be better off with a cheaper and lighter AR pistol with a brace or M4 Carbine and AP 5.56mm?
I realize this is an old videos but I just got my hands the S&W 5.7x28 and I put a 407k red dot on it and I'm into it 900$ or so. I have not yet to shoot it do to me getting back surgery but I definitely fell in love with the ergonomics and the trigger break is crisp. Two things I love. Right now ammo is 35 to 40 dollars for 50 rounds. That part sucks but if you grab a box of ammo every check and sacrifice the energy drinks it's not that bad. I recommend it for anyone with decent size hands because it is incredibly comfortable.
I love your honesty!!!! Too many gun reviewers just selling guns for manufacturers. The gun mags are the same too. So you Tim, are a breath of fresh air
Excellent video, and a fun topic. I love the 22 TCM and would like to see it gain some popularity and industry presence... but agree with your assessment on the comparison.
Love your channel. :)
@@theknifeman7097 Thanks man!
Love the 5.7 rock! Paid 400 for an optics ready slide and complete frame. Add 100$ for 5 mags and you're at 500.
Plus their bullshit shipping fees, tax and whatever your local FFL charges for transfer fees. Probably bumps that number up to 600-ish. I like PSA but they're definitely guilty of using unsavory business practices (like they way they advertise and market the things that they sell).
The actual story--according to a conversation I had with RIA owner, Martin Tuason is that there were barrels of reject brass that RIA gunsmith Frank Craig saw at Armscorp and he asked if he could take some to develop this cartridge he had been thinking about. The reason it was developed for the 1911 is that RIA is the world's largest manufacturer of 1911s.
I fired one at SHOT Show a couple of years ago, and it's definitely a pretty cool cartridge. The offerings in 1911 are far too big for CCW in my opinion. I haven't played with the Glock conversion, but based on the limited ammunition that's available, it's definitely a niche round. In my opinion, this probably shouldn't be anybody's first, or for that matter second, or even third handgun. If you are into cool guns and cartridges, it's probably worth owning.
you should definitely check out the black dragon fang, Its a pretty gnarly defensive round for the 5.7.
It's a knock off of elite ammo t6b round...and they did a great job of doing it
@@harrycallahan5112 when they work lol
I have owned a single stack RIA 22TCM tactical for several years. It's one of my favorite range guns. While some of the concerns expressed in the video are certainly valid, I believe the value of the 9mm/22TCM combo was understated. Same for the price difference between the 22TCM and 5.7 cartridges. To many folks, that price difference is significant and important. As to quality, I can honestly say that my "sample of 1" has been 100% reliable through thousands of rounds. I don't remember having any kind of malfunction. One other point. While I can't speak to the 5.7 in any pistol (never owned one), I can offer that the 22TCM out of my RIA is by far the most accurate pistol I have ever owned... and I've owned a LOT. I attribute that accuracy to the light, smooth trigger and the almost non-existent recoil of the firearm. It is an absolute joy to shoot.
22 TCM is only more affordable because there is basically no demand for it. If it ever managed to become even moderately more popular, the price would shoot up well past 5.7mm; it's a bit of a Catch-22 (pun intended).
Excellent video guys! Very good comparison,I’d love too see that mythical 22TCM rifle.
You and be both!
I have 2 of them the wood versions and synthetic
@@calebhenderson8263 awesome send it to M.A.C so we all can see a review of it.
Look at the Rock Island M22 TCM BA rifle. It is in semi-auto. A very fine rifle for the TCM cartridge.
I love my .22 TCM 1911. I don't use it for self defense. That is reserved for my FN 509. I hate that you didn't get a reliable 1911, Tim. I've fired mine many times and never had a bit of trouble with reliability. Good information in the video, though.
I've owned a kimber stainless 2 in 10mm that was also a piece of steaming dog crap
I understand that running these rounds in handguns is the basis of the video but…. I remember when the TCM was introduced and they advertised the bolt action rifle that was chambered in it, not for everyone but a cool concept I thought. I think that a 5.7x28 in a compact bolt action would be a handy little varmint gun, I would also like to see a Controlled Chaos 5.7 round. Great topic for conversation as usual, thanks for all that you do!
A 22 tcm carbine or pdw style pistol with an 8 inch or longer barrel would be ideal for better efficiency of the cartridge.
I did not run across this month-old video until today. Absolutely the perfect title for such a video!
They need to make a modern polymer framed double stack in 22 tcm with modern features ifbthey want to see it take off better
the Rock Island MAPP is modern styled after a CZ75/Tangfolio pistol that .22tcm is or was at one time offered in.
22tcm9R would be an interesting thing to cover..you can get a barrel and recoil spring kit for any gen 3 9mm Glock.And your absolutely correct with the boom..it sounds like a 44mag but feels like a 22mag.
You sir, are a showman. I dig it.
*Laughs in 7.62x25*
On a serious note, yes, I knew almost 10 years ago that this 5.7 would become huge, ans everyone said, "No, bro, don't get the 5.7. It'll never take off and they're too expensive. You'll end up having a gun that nobody makes the bullets for.". Yet, look where we are now. I'm not disappointed.
22TCM can be bought for $35 a hundred. I have never had an issue with my 22TCM. In my opinion, if you have a 22TCM, no need to go with the 5.7, but each to their own.
Tim I have spoken to you before when I had some issues with a pistol years ago. When I called the shop you were very interested in the story. I wanted to add some things. I'm not sure if someone else said this in the comments. I hope it helps
1. Most of the rock island guns in 22tcm came with a 9mm barrel to swap out. In case 22tcm did not survive, you did not have a dead gun.
2. Armscor, at one time, we're making after-market glock slides and another version of their ammo. 22tcmr. I would assume the r stands for rounded. I am not sure since I never bought one. However, reduced weight for carry. I cannot confirm reliability.
At one time, I had the single stack your showing as well as their 2011 version still have the double stack. Hope this information helped. I can tell you both pistols needed some adjustments before I got them reliable. Very small ones but needed.
From the look of the entry angle for each round, the 5.7 has MUCH less drop at that distance, making aiming over a range of distances much easier.
That right there is worth more than all the features you could ever add to a gun.
Hey Tim, Gunbroker has 2, 22 TCM rifles for sale right now. They aren’t the tactical model but with the wood stock, instead.
For me, the main drawback of the 22 TCM is that it doesn't utilize a Spitzer style bullet and therefore has almost zero potential to penetrate body armor 😕
Watch Paul Harrells 22tcm vs 5.7x28 video.
You could probably get a custom mold for it and use some hard lead or.. other substances I suppose lol
I got a Glock 19 .22 TCM conversion barrel. Shot 1 box of Armscor 22 TCM 9 ammo through it. Had 3 primers completely eject out the back of their cases. Called Armscor and they weren't interested in the problem. It was a real disappointment for me. I returned the barrel and said forget it. Never shot it again.
It doesn't help that they came out with 2 versions of 22 TCM.... the stabdard and the 22 TCM 9 for 9mm conversations.
At one point Classic Firearms had a plethora of 22 TCM rifles. Almost bought one for fun. After seeing the over-pressure of their rounds in the pistols, glad I didn't.
I honestly hope Armscor/ RIA does well with their new 5.0. It looks awesome. I hope the quality is better than my previous experience with them. I do know many people who love their RIA pistols.
Another round I hope sees a long life is the .327 Fed Mag.
Think they’re both good varminters. I’m hoping to get a 22tcm barrel soon
First time hearing about 22TCM, thanks for the knowledge transfer Sir
22tcm needs some PSA support
They cant . Nobody can unless RIA bothers to get it SAAMI certified . They wont of course because they have a monopoly this way. Pisses me off
@@PatriotPaulUSA yeah I know, I was hoping the cartridge would be SAAMI spec's by now. I would love to get a Rock in 22 tcm
I like the 22TCMr Glock 17 conversion barrel. 33rd mags, slap a stock on it and you got yourself a incredible little armor defeating carbine! 👍🏻
I also bought the conversion kit from RIA for my CA roster Gen3 G17. Problem is I can't find .22TCM9R ammo available anywhere. I have plenty of 22TCM ammo for my RIA Tactical 22TCM/9mm combo pistol that I had to SSE back when Californians had that option. I'd really like to find some of the 9R so I can actually try out the conversion.
I would like to see an extreme penetrator style round in the 22tcm!
Have a ruger in 5.7 x 28 have had no problems but wanted a TCM and 9mm barrel in the 17 rd gun so I could chamber it in 38 super. Guess I'll stop looking. I have already started building a comb 1911 in 6 in. with Wilson nolan ramped barrels in 10mm and 38 sup. Will be my.5th 10mm 2nd 38sup. Built a 460 Rowland and love it. Great explanations about the two. Now I have to sell some 22 TCM ammo I bought in preparation.
I guess the only question that matters is whether 22tcm or 5.7 will penetrate the upgraded armor that high table forces are using 🤔 😁
You can get 5.7ap ... you rounds but idk about the other. 5.7 is nato.
MAC, I have shot both calibers and from a carry standpoint the 22TCM is so loud that it is not something I'd want to shoot without hearing protection defensively. The object of a defensive weapon is to stop a threat; not take yourself out because your equilibrium is disrupted..
On another note, I have not shot the PSA Rock, but I have shot the new S&W and the Ruger 5.7 offerings, as well as, the OG FN, and I have to say that out of those 3, the S&W is by far my favorite.
It has some things going on in its design that are not only intriguing from an innovative manufacturing perspective but also takes an already soft shooting caliber and makes it that much softer and smoother performing. I think once you give it a run the PSA may take a second place standing. The thing that the Rock has advantage wise over all of them is its relatively low retail cost. If you are looking for a 5.7 on a miniscule budget the PSA is definitely going to be the way to go; however, if you have close to 700 to spend and are looking at the S&W and Ruger, IMO the S&W is a far better way to go. Will be anxious to see if you share that sentiment.
FN 5.7 - when you want 22 TCM performance, but the 22 TCM just doesn't cost *enough*
As a PS90 owner I felt this
Well said!
The term you're looking for is sectional density. It's the one of, if not the biggest, determining factors in penetration. It's the reason that heavy-for-caliber rounds tend to penetrate greater than lighter rounds. One can play tricks and mess with bullet material to play with the numbers, but it follows the same argument as 'there's no replacement for displacement'
As a reloader, the tcm is quite intriguing 🤔
I bought a NOE mold from Al that drops a 39 Grn and put a aluminum GC on it and your at 40-41grns depending on your lead alloy and I have had nothing but excellent results with my Glock 17 conversion barrel and spring.
The above comment was in regard to the 22 TCM 9R Cartridge,you can shoot the 22 TCM 9R in a regular 22 TCM but not the other way around because the 22 TCM is longer in length
I tried using the 22 TCM 9R, which is the version of the 22 TCM designed to work in standard 9mm length actions like the Glock. I tried the Glock 17 and 19 conversion kits, as well as the RIA MAPP pistol, which is supposed to run the 22 TCM 9R cartridge specifically. I couldn't get it to work reliably in any of them. Failure to feed, short stroking, failure to extract... You name it, all of them did it. Part of me suspects that the factory ammunition is very inconsistent. But at this point it doesn't matter. I can't get it to work so I don't bother using it. I went and got a FiveseveN, and just use that instead. Yes, the ammunition costs more. But it is utterly reliable.
Maybe Panzer Arms could research making an upper similar to the AR57 upper to chamber the 22TCM using a similar magazine and setup. That would cut down the blast and utilize the powder that is being wasted out the barrel. See how that makes it perform.
Been saying for year that i'm more impressed with the 22 tcm then the 5.7. Think i even mentioned it on your channel few times. Only reason 5.7 is taking off cause it has military backing.
I tend to agree with your comment. 5.7 is a military caliber. TCM was never supposed to be a competitor to the 5.7. It was designed to be a very versatile varmint/light defensive multi-purpose caliber for the CIVILIAN market. I doubt Craig/Tuason even considered “being a competitor” to any other particular round. Otherwise, Armscor would have developed a semi-auto carbine for the round (which would be a very cool addition).
Thank you Tim. Great video. 👍 🤠
those 2 cals to me seem ONLY for people who think the 9mm has to much recoil. you show these being shot out of FULL size guns and in full size guns 9mm is a sweet heart that has great ballistics. love innovation and i dig nitch or boutique stuff but for everyday in a full size gun 9mm is hard to beat