Southern Pacific 4-8-8-2 Cab Forward, How the Worlds Most Unique Steam Locomotive Came to be
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- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
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This video covers the story of how the Southern Pacific Cab Forward came into existence and went on to be the worlds most distinctive and unique steam locomotive ever built.
It`s nice to see that SP saved one cab forward.
Im not sure how you couldn't.. One of a kind here in the States!
Fantastic video on the Cab Forward. I really enjoyed learning the history on it. #4294 was my first articulated locomotive. Good stuff!👍
Very cool!
Thank you for the video on Cab Forward Locomotives. I have been interested in the Cab Forwards for quite some time. Keep the good videos and the narrative/explanations that you give with them coming.
Thank you! And will do!
The very first cab-forward steam loco in the US was a 3-foot gauge Northwestern Pacific RR 4-4-0 that was turned around and used oil for fuel. This railroad served the northern side of the San Francisco Bay and north area.
Good tidbit! Thanks for commenting!
The AC12 at the CSRM is absolutely enormous. They literally just turned the locomotive around, made some necessary changes due to the new configuration and gave it an all-weather cab up front. The engineer and fireman's position didn't change. The throttle and other controls were now on the left. It should be noted that cab forwards were oil burners. Using coal as a fuel was not an option, with the firebox up front and the tender in the trailing position.
Great info! Thank you for commenting!
Actually, they did swap the engineer and fireman's position. Compared to a conventional locomotive, everything inside the cab is effectively mirrored. If you were to reorient 4294 into a conventional configuration, the engineer would be on the left side of the cab, the gauges for the engineer were also oriented so you must be looking away from the firebox in order to view them. This reconfiguration was done to maintain the relative position so that the engineer would still be on the right side of the locomotive when moving in a forward direction, in large part to have a clear view of signals and other on-ground equipment.
@@ExPRazor Huh? Have you been to CSRM? The seats are facing the opposite way. All the controls and gauges are in the same position, more or less. In a typical steam locomotive, the engineer sits on the right. In a cab forward he sits on the left, just like you drive your car. Where signals are placed is irrelevant because there is nothing to block the view. May as well be driving a bus.
@@J3scribe I worked there as a docent for several years, the project I did to get the position had a focus on that engine. I could point to most if not all of the controls on the engineer side, which are infact on the right side of the cab. There are pictures of the real thing, as well as simulated versions of the AC-10 and 11, all three have the controls for the engineer and fireman mirrored from a conventional yellowstone, and positioned so the engineer is not having to face backwards to view the gauges.
Don't know if this will post successfully, but here's a fisheye shot of the engineer's seat, the front windshield is behind the camera: www.railpictures.net/images/d2/0/3/0/8030.1463059994.jpg
My dad use to take me and my brothers up to tehachapis to see the cab forward steam engine pull the train the loop.
Those had to be the days!
Gotta love the Cab-forwards💪🏽
Indded!
In my opinion these arent yellowstones. Because of its backwards configuration I think we should call it the "ENOTSWOLLY".
In all seriousness I love the cab forwards even though they never ran near my side of the states. Great vid man!
Although SP had no choice in this matter, I was wondering how much more expensive it was to use oil rather than coal. And, although I'll probably never visit Sacramento, I was wondering about the layout of the cab, position of the seats, gauges, valves, etc.
You know, I was there and inexplicably I only took one photo of the Cab Forward.. And it wasnt the cab layout. Curious decision by me since I did take cab photo's of the SP's Daylight 4449 locomotive and several cab photo's of various Mikes along the way. They used Bunker C oil.. Which is about as unrefined as you can get. Therefore the cheapest. That said, overall coal was still the cheapest means of firing and running a steam locomotive. This despite obvious savings in residual coal handling labor.. Such as ash handling, etc.
The numbers say it was NOT a Yellowstone. Orientation is from leading trucks (cornering) to trailing trucks, not having ANYTHING to do with the cab, or firebox, or any extraneous detail.
Opinions on this will not be uniform.
You are basing your comment on the typical Whyte System of classification using the direction of normal running. Using the wheel count from "normal" as from under the boiler front to the cab, the Whyte Classification is a 2-8-8-4. The only practical way this set-up works is by using oil for fuel; even though it was bunker C or almost asphalt and had to be heated to flow. The tenders had to be pressurized to about 1/2 to 1 psi to get the oil to the firebox on the steep grades because of the distance between the tender connection and the burner in the firebox causing them to be at different levels. Obviously, this was a problem when the tender oil tank became low from use.
@@royreynolds108 Great explanation!
The ACs proved very adaptable engines and were used all over the SP empire. Notably, they were used as passenger power for both the Pacific Limited and Owl over the Donner and Tehachapi segments respectively. Their last days were spent pulling freights on the Southern Pacific's Western Division between Oakland and Roseville.
that was well worded and yes i think the yellow stone and cab forward are the "same"
Thank you!
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower you deserve it your content is great
Most kind of you!
Was hoping you would have explained how they worked with the fire box.
Yeah, this video was more about the origins of Cab Forward, how it came to be rather than the technical side of things. I also tend to TRY not to be too technical with my video's in general because a lot of the viewers are more of the casual/new classic rail fan who don't have a lot of working knowledge of the mechanics. Being overly techy would kind of leave them out. The viewership results of my step further Big Boy tech breakdown video reflects this as well.
Im sorry, I just realized hours later that I didnt answer your question about the firebox... Really, not much had to be done with that, the boiler, etc.. simply because the operation ran on Bunker C fuel oil and not coal. Fuel was pumped in after it was heated first as bunker c is close to sludge when it's cold.
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPowerwas wondering about that. Would have been hard to move coal from one end of the locomotive to the other. Oil just requires a pump so not that difficult. UP probably could have converted 3985 into a cab forward locomotive since it runs on oil too.
I absolutely agree that the cab forward steam locomotives on the spa were definitely yellow stones reverse yellow stones
Appreciate the feedback!
While the SP cab forwards are the most well known and the largest of the kind, they weren't unique.
A series of 43 cab forward 4-6-0s were built for the Italian State Railways from 1902 onwards, so even before an engineer on the SP railroad thought of turning his locomotive around.
Germany did build one of the three DRG class 05 4-6-4 locomotives intended for 120mph running as a cab forward, and some other experimental locomotives have been built as a single unit type of cab forward in Europe and the UK.
Im aware that smaller Cab forwards existed in other countries. Im just not versed nearly enough to speak about them. The SP's are the most unique IMO because of their size and the task of which they were asked to do; of which they performed brilliantly.
❤ I love this video I had no idea about the legend behind it Engineers decided to flip the locomotives around and they saw a trend and they decided to make a locomotive with those specifications and never even tested it out and just built it that's pretty Epic I've seen the ac12 table forward in the Sacramento Railroad Museum when I was probably 12 or 13 years old the thing is gigantic I still remember it very well that was the first articulated locomotive I ever saw for a very long time till I saw the big boy in Utah where I live very awesome video of always been a fan of the cab forwards back in the day on my old computer I had train simulator with a upgrade pack with a cab forward I always love the ac12 cuz they look almost like a trolley car in the front but then you walk off to the side and you see this gigantic articulated steam locomotive I always love that cab forwards cuz of that they're so cool looking a very trippy way and it's a very interesting to solve the smoke inhalation problem Southern Pacific was party clever on that it's sad that locomotive will probably never turn a wheel under its own power ever again awesome video keep up the great work
Especially now that the Union Pacific now controls the SP lines. No need for a Cab Forward competing against 4014 for attention. Love the story! And thank you!
Super cool loco, think Nigel Gresleys LNER Class P-1 three cylinder Caprotti Valve gear 2-8-2 crossed with an SP Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 to handle 1,400ton iron ore trains to steel works in Scunthorpe South Yorkshire UK, makes a BR Riddles Class 9F 2-10-0 look like a toy.
Southern Pacific did not refer these as Yellowstones (an NP name). They called them Cab Forwards or ACs.
Yes I know... The reference was simply made because the design of the loco itself wound up being based upon the Yellowstone design, of course with their own tweaks and modifications. The design used by the SP (Baldwin) actually looks to be the pre-cursor to the B & O Yellowstone design (also built by Baldwin) The specs are very similar. I am guessing that Baldwin used many of the features in the SP for the B & O design
So how did they get the coal to the firebox? It appears that the firebox was still with the cab and would be way up front. You can pipe water but coal?
All of the Southern Pacific Cab Forwards ran on bunker C oil.. Which is as close to sludge as you can get in grade. It had to be heated first so it could flow into the fire box. it's the only way this cab forward setup could work. Coal would be impossible to use.
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower Thanks. That explains it
How did they feed the coal into the engine? Did they have some kind of mechanism to slowly push the coal into the furnace?
Bunker C fuel oil, no coal in the Cab Forwards :)
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower I see I see, makes a lot more sense then
I disagree. If you’re going to say a 4-8-8-2 is a Yellowstone, will you then say a 4-10-2 is a backwards Texas? Is a Berkshire a backwards Mountain? A Pacific a backwards Adriatic?
By 'Engineer' we assume you mean train driver.
in locomotive operations, yes. In the locomotive design dept. it's a design engineer.
Yes it is a yellowstone
Agreed!
Nope… yellow stone 2-8-8-4 cab forward 4-8-8-2…
Okay, that's how you see it! No foul there.
See my comment for @coachhannah2403 above.
'most unique? Unique means it is the only one - there are no degrees of 'uniqueness'!
If you say so.
Yes it is a Yellowstone.
I more than think so as well.
As usual the Americans have claimed this was unique and one off design And as usual they are WRONG There were cab forwards running in Italy in the 1890s Yes they weren't as big but the lines were mountainous with lots of tunnels Please note America did not invent ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING
Well, you can't say America doesn't have pride! Thanks for the comment!
Don't mean to be pedantic, but those Italian cab forwards you are referring to weren't made until 1900.
And true, while not a unique one off, it was Americans that first came up with the concept of thr cab forwards. With the Forney locomotives of the 1860s and an experimental engine by the North Pacific Coast railroad in the 1870s.
And it can be argued that SPs attempts at Cab Forwards were the most successful executions of the concept, so it makes sense that SPs attempts are more well known than others.
@@mattthedoormat I completely forgot about the Forney.. Otherwise I'd have mentioned it in the video!
Well Mussolini always claimed he made the trains run on time, so you have that going for Italy.
@@GermanShepherd1983 If that's the case, then nothing else worked out for him.. At least he had that going for him.