Yup - good point - very much moreso about the continuous snowshed and tunnel combo. I didn't really emphasize that enough, but figured the general public would understand tunnel and not necessarily snowshed. :)
@@Hyce777 Hi, I'm a new fan, and I wonder as you are so passionate about train operations and functionality, would you be willing to give a look at Trans Siberian railway simulator. I know it has many non train related shenanigans, but I think it has very curious train operations that can be interesting.
@@Daemorien He is aware, however it will probably only show up in a stream when he has had sufficient of the stronger stuff for commentary according to Hyce in a previous livestream.
It’s also worth mentioning that the cab forward design won an industrial design award back in the day, and 4294 itself is a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark. A very SP way to solve a unique problem.
One of our engineers on the excursion line is an expert on this thing. He's a treasure for three big reasons: 1. He operated this locomotive itself 2. He was a mechanical engineer for SP who joined the operations aspect, so he knows every square inch of the beast 3. He has stories of these beasts that could make you cry
Hyce, I am 73 years old and enjoy watching your videos. My great uncle was an SP engineer out of Eugene,OR. (I was born there. but never lived there). He worked for SP his entire life and ran Cab Forwards and other locomotive over the Natron Cutoff and other routes. The Natron Cutoff had a big helper yard at Oakridge, OR. My Grandparents moved to Oakridge in the late 50's. I used to spend two or three weeks every summer with them and enjoyed every one of them as I was a kid from the big city of Portland ,OR. Their house was about two blocks from the SP mainline. Steam was gone but it was fun watching the trains. My great uncle died when I was young and I didn't get to know him. I wish I had known him as he probably had some great stories to tell about railroading from the 1890's to the 1950's.
Being 69, an Oregonian and also born in Eugene but lived all my life in Bend. I've been through Oakridge many times and never realized the town had such an important SP history. Cool story!
The failed German Cab Forward 05 003 also is an interesting Tale. It failed because it was designed to burn Oil but then was changed to Coal Dust, for Strategic Reasons that probably explain themselves in 1930ies Germany. It suffered constant Combustion Issues because the Coal Dust couldn't be blown steady through the Fuel Piping that was designed for Oil. Following these Issues, the Locomotive was turned around to a conventional Design with Cab at the Back, and the streamlined Shell was removed too.
Coal dust firing has its own issues - coal dust in air is a high explosive. The tenders detonate if nitrogen blankets aren’t used (my great grandfather drove one in Australia in the 1930’s - they went through three tenders in a year of testing).
5:34 While designed primarily for freight service, the SP used the cab-forwards for passenger service with some regularity. That valve supplies steam for passenger car heating.
Getting around the smoke in tunnels problem is a fascinating part of railroad history. You can satisfy all kinds of foamers. Cab forewards, Portal to portal electric, or T motors. Great video on the cab forward!
The EMD tunnel motors as well, those were specialized variants of the SD40-2 and SD45 that moved their air intakes to prevent overheating in long tunnels. They made about 500 of those for SP and Rio Grande, and several are still in service to this day.
I never knew about the hose situation from the temder to the locomotive, but the crazy design makes sense and gives me another new appreciation for the cab forwards.
This is why I love how Southern Pacific has the prettiest and powerful locomotives especially the 4-8-4 and the cab forwards. Plus 4449 is still rolling.
I remember when these monsters were in mainline service. The cab forward engine was designed mostly because of the SNOW SHEDS! As I recall there were more of those than tunnels in the Sierra. Also, that's supposed to be why Southern Pacific steam locomotives were oil fired, not coal fired. Cinders and sparks from a coal fire would set the snow sheds on fire - they were made of wood. I don't know if coal fired engines were ever allowed to run through the snow sheds - they certainly weren't in the 1950's. I didn't know that oil was cheaper than coal in California back then. Thanks for that. I lived in Crockett, CA in those days and most east bound rail traffic ran through our town. I loved these beasts, though they scared the crap out of me when I was little.
My favorite design feature is the earliest cab forwards and articulateds blew the roofs off the snowsheds on Donner Pass. So instead of some uber high tech blast nozzle or exhaust system, they just stuck a metal bar across the stacks. Low budget, low tech, and worked like a treat
Loading Gauge is such an interesting topic. In South Africa, our main network is Cape Standard Gauge (3'6" / 1067mm) yet our loading gauge is bigger than the UK's which runs on standard gauge track.
The UK should simply fix it's loading gauge to UIC loading gauge as everyone around them has. It also took the Union only 48 hours to fix the gauges of the entirety of the traitor states post war and loading gauge is just one more word, what difference can that possibly make. in the wise words of jeremy clarckson: "How hard can it be"?
As for comparing South Africa with the US, you probably have commuter trains faster than the entirety of the Americas has in intercity, not to mention other african countries that actually have HSR.
@@1121494 not actually true. We have one rapid rail system of only 50 route miles, runs up to 100mph. The national system is in shambles due to political nonsense (eg, catenary systematically removed - read stolen - whole tracks and sleepers stolen). All this came about in 2020 because the politicians have taxis and trucks in their pockets. When I speak of taxis, in our context, these are minibuses which are also run by gangsters and are above the law. Over the last year they have started to 'replace' what was stolen and slowly getting the network back and running - and wouldn't you know, just in time for elections in May. Its very bad down here, trust me things are way better up there by you. There is currently only one African country with HSR - that's Morocco using the French TGV trains. There is talks of introducing HSR here between our business center inland and the one port city, but nothing concrete yet and there is the problem of a plateau to overcome (in my mind this can be down with a series of helix's)
@1121494 the reason for the UK loading gauge problem, with the exception of parts of what was "God's Wonderful Railway", is that being first made them Guinea pigs, they were designed for the era when a locomotive had six wheels, maybe eight, and the tender had the same, all up not more than 20 tons, and it was road carriage sizes. The Pantechnicon was rarely seen in town. So bridges were lower, overall widths were narrower. The bit about God's Wonderful Railway, is Brunel's 7'3" gauge, giant machines, but still not much bigger in the loading gauge.
Another few facts worth mentioning (I may have done a little reading about cab forwards lol). The air pump exhaust was SIGNIFICANTLY louder that portrayed in the museum. The deck between the smokebox and the tender was referred to as “the monkey deck” because hobos often hitched rides up there. The more modern cab forwards were also equipped to handle passenger trains, having a steam heat line. Those who REALLY wanna deep dive into these things, should find a copy of Cab Forward by Dr Robert J Church. Hard fo find but a good edition to a foamer library.
I'd only heard of cab-forwards as a name. I didn't realize it's not just cab-forward, it's Whole Damn Locomotive Bass-Ackward. Including the articulated engine set. What a bizarrely beautiful machine. Although I see the point about _not being in the crumple zone_ if you hit something. Thanks for the video! Another great learning experience!!
Yeah I've seen that locomotive many times and never quite realized all the extra engineering needed to accommodate not just the reverse systems but the articulation. Dang.
It's been tried many ways. There were some attempts that had the engine the correct way around, and the engineer got his own cab. Those failed because of communication issues and the lack of Deadman protection.
Cab forward design is strangely beautiful in all its manifestations. The wheelhouse forward design of some lake freighter ships also seem unusual, but beautiful. The cab forward lorry models are almost gone in Canada but are beautiful. Modern diesel-electric locomotives have a cab forward design that is iconic. Aircraft are configured in a cab forward design. Automobiles have moved to a cab forward design, causing massive headaches to mechanics. They should be completely reworked to put the engine in the back with their current forward cab design. But, overall, cab forward is beautiful, except maybe automobiles.
2:02 i just keep thinking that surely it would be easier to make a tender that can run first at high speed cant possibly be as hard as the effort they went to to try and put the cab at the other end lol
SP had the tunnels and snow sheds to contend with, but they also had oil. I guess it’s not remembered very well these days, but the California oil fields were a big deal back in the day. Oil was cheaper than coal for the Southern Pacific. Even later, in my lifetime, I remember the oil pumps by the side of the freeway as a sign that we were getting close to LA. So cheap oil, expensive coal, and the tunnels and snowsheds combined to make cab-forwards more attractive to the SP than anyone else.
How railroads handled their tunnels would definitely be an interesting video. I know for a fact that my home railroad, the Boston and Maine, has a kind of funny story regarding the locomotives it uses for its big tunnel the Hoosac. The Boston and Maine found that the ventilation systems the tunnel had weren't cutting it, so in an attempt to reduce smoke and fumes, they bought 4 oil-burning 2-6-6-2 Mallet type engines. Called the M-1 class they did not perform well enough and were sold off to the Maine Central when the tunnel was electrified less than a year later. Once the Maine Central got the M-1s they were converted to coal burners, renumbered, and reclassified as the X class and ran the Crawford Notch grade until being retired in 1935.
As much as I love steam locomotives the more I watch of Hyce the more the switch to Diesel Electric from not just a business standpoint but plain common sense and simplicity makes sense. On an unrelated note I didn't know anything narrower than RGW existed in the US. Crazy to think about something that massive on that narrow a gauge!
It's worth noting that at the time dieselisation was taking place, especially in Europe, there wasn't really a sadness to see the steam engines go. They were considered dirty, unpleasant machines to work on, where the diesels were clean and easy. It's in fact our retrospective romanticism of steam that the appreciation mostly comes from.
Here in the UK, we had a similar loco, a steam loco that looks like a diesel called the Bullied Leader, an 0-6-0+0-6-0 with cabs at both ends, and the fireman cab in the middle so can run either direction. Instead of a separate tender, its all built in one. Front half is the boiler, the rear half is the "tender" part that holds the coal and water.
Thanks for another great video. You mentioned that some railroads ran their diesel locomotives Lon hood forward, one of these was the Norfolk and Western. They were one of the last to abandon steam, one reason was it was a “coal road” and stayed “loyal” to their customers. The locomotive crews almost refused to run the diesel short hood forward, so they bought their early hood units set up to run long hood forward. As you said the crews were concerned about safety.
4:17 This is a certified pew-pew moment Silliness aside, this was an excellent video! A really great presentation on the fascinating design of these unique beasts
There are two reasons why the SP had the tunnel issues that caused the cab forwards: Snow and Rock The heavy, wet snow of the Sierra Nevada mountains is nicknamed sierra cement for a reason. It is so relatively wet, more slush than snow, that overnight it freezes solid. And so much falls on Donner pass that Union Pacific has two teams of rotary plows with two plows per team for that pass alone. Their third team is for the rest of their system. That much snow, and the avalanches it caused, led the Central Pacific, later Southern Pacific, to connect the tunnels together with snow sheds. 40 miles of snow sheds at one point. As for the rock, the route over the Sierras, Donner pass, is almost entirely granite. Hard, tough granite that took years of blasting to dig through in the first place, averaging 2ft per day. And the longest was over 1600 feet long at the time. In the 1920s, the route was realigned with a two mile long tunnel to cut 1.3 miles off the total length and 130 feet lower in elevation at the summit. Even with this new tunnel, it was prohibitively expensive to add the large ventilation tunnels and shafts that other railroads used.
I went to the California State Railroad Museum once growing up. We were taking the Amtrak from Reno to Seattle, and you swap from the Zephyr to the Starlight in Sacramento. It's like a 9 hour transfer (you get in to SAC at 1500, then leave at like 23:50) which with the museum almost literally right next door is a perfect opportunity to stop by. I remember seeing the cab forward and thinking "well ain't that more then just a little goofy"
I’m not sure if the museum has a detailed analysis of the complete condition of the Cab Forward. This unit was saved at the last moment and pieced together since scrapping on her had already begun. They cobbled together nearly everything and welded it up to look presentable and I think they did a great job. I’m guessing the main chassis/frame is unmolested and that’s what matters but the side rods and other main rods are from other units so they aren’t aligned and would require major work if not completely new rods and saddle pistons. Each locomotive is unique, a majority of the drive parts are not interchangeable to identical locomotives as we’re used to today. Like others, I wish with all I have that we could get a Cab Forward running again but it’ll take a lot more than is possible.
I've heard that at least one other railroad (Western Pacific? Rio Grande?) considered buying cab forwards as well. Maybe the Grande, I could see this being useful in the 6-mile Moffat Tunnel. And of course, the same miles and miles of tunnels and snowsheds that birthed the Cab Forwards later led to the Tunnel Motors that you've also done a video on. Meanwhile, Great Northern opted just to electrify their tunnel, first the 2-ish mile one and then the 8-ish mile one. The wires came down in 1956, right about the same time the Cab Forwards were retired.
It’s amazing they can build so many of these machines with such complexity especially back in those days! And good luck that one of those components don’t fail in a dangerous manner.
Short answer is the sp had lots of snowsheds and putting the cab in front allowed the crew to be in front of the smokestack, the crew being in front of the smokestack kept the crew from suffocating due to smoke in the tunnels and snow sheds. I drove one of these in trainsim 2017 and had a lot of trouble with starting on slopes
I've been to that museum many times. It's a must-see stop for any railroad enthusiast. And there's plenty to see even for non-choo-choo folks. That is certainly one impressive locomotive, especially being able to get into the cab. Standing next to the driving wheels is also a pretty awesome experience. Thanks for the video.
Great video and fun fact for you. The UK had cab forward locomotives too. They were found on the Glyn Valley Tramway and these were 2ft 4inc locomotives with an 0-4-0 layout and were designed as a cab forward and had skirts covering all the motion and the sides of the engine. To meet the rules of the tramway they had to give an un obstructed view for the driver, a speedometer and limiter to 10mph and they had turntables at each end of the tramway to turn the engine.
Theres also bulleid's abomination which is the Southern railway's leader class... which looks like a normal diesel engine but it's steam and the fireman is IN THE MIDDLE.
I got to admit that little rinky dink cab forward thing you showed at the end of the video was pretty cute I do hope that one of these video games that are out or will be coming out features this locomotive in it because I've been dying to play it ever since I found out it was a possibility it was going to get added to railroads online. And id like to say that I do agree with hyce let's all please support our local railroads if you are anywhere in South Carolina please please go to the South Carolina railroad museum they are desperately in need of funding to support rebuilding a steam locomotive that they have sitting outside it needs a new boiler and a lot of other things and they're trying to raise money to get it fixed.
My grandparents store their camping trailer in the shops where they were built. Unfortunately UP is buying it back from the guy they leased it to to use as a storage facility to tear it down. I have a bunch of pictures thankfully.
Listening to your point and seeing the front-end at 8:00, I'm reminded of the gas-powered railcars of the era. Collisions with grade-crossing traffic had a good chance of not ending well for the operator.
Hi Mark, this 101 episode about the why of a cab forward was fascinating. Gigantic choo-choo, Omg! Being a beginner, I hadn’t thought about this feature. Thanks for your excellent and succinct explanation. Also, what a great exhibit being able to enter the cab and actually sit in the fireman and engineer’s seats to examine the controls and all that. I echo your statement, Mark, about how beautifully the trains are preserved and exhibited at the California State RR Museum. They even include sounds that’s so cool! Loved hearing Brett’s observations, two experts conversing-can’t get any better! The 4294 is magnificent for sure and I hope to see this and the museum in person someday. Many, many thanks for yet another A+++ classroom field trip session and, as always, cheers to you Professor!
Wasn't there an incident where those long oil lines came back to bite them? I don't remember the specific story, but an oil line failed and dumped a bunch of oil on the rails. That was enough to cause the locomotive to wheelslip something fierce, and the resulting slack action caused a knuckle to fail and the train to dump, leaving the crew stranded in the tunnel as it filled with smoke and the fire spread. I don't think that was enough to stop SP from using them, but I remember hearing about something like that from, (I think) Train of Thought's channel.
Just a random, off topic comment: In the early 2000's I use to work at the Milwaukee PBS station. We had several shows we produced, some of which were carried nationally to all the other PBS stations. One of those shows was called Tracks Ahead. I'm guessing you've probably heard of it. I used to work on that show alongside the producer and after watching several episodes of your show, I have to say that I'm getting serious Tracks Ahead vibes off your content. Keep up the good work.
I used to go to that museum every year and I got to see that engine up close almost every time. I learned a few things about it from your video that I never know from seeing it in person.
Thank you for showing the cab layout. Living in Australia, it is unlikely that I would get to see the cab forward in person so this video is much appreciated. Yes the gauge glasses might be behind you, but you would not always be watching them, only glancing at them every so often, more so the fireman than the engineer. The control and gauge layout seems appropriate for the time and the needs, the only fear being so close to the front if there is something on the track that should not be there.
The smoke in the tunnels was bad but also the snow sheds. SP had a lot of snow sheds. The device located right over the center of the twin stacks is a smoke splitter to lessen the exhaust damage to the roofs of the snow sheds. I don't think I have to ask what your Dead Head friends favorite Dead tune is. Side note: Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter often had trains mentioned in the songs they wrote for the Dead.
Always, ALWAYS thought it was one of the most intersting, exotic, BEAUTIFUL creations in metal..! Thank you oh so very much in showing/ presenting that eerie cab interior..
By the way, the K-36 and K-37 class like the 491 shown in the outro his simply incredible track record. Out of the 20 that have been built, 17 still exist and 13 are still in working condition. Incredible, after basically 100 years. Many of the much newer locomotive types cannot be described like that.
I have got to see Southern Pacific Cab Forward 4294 displayed here at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, California. It’s a amazing big steam locomotive at the museum. We could’ve also had another SP Cab Forward preserved with that being Southern Pacific Cab Forward 4274. Which could’ve been displayed at the Western Railway Museum in Suisun City, California. Since it was known for being the last steam locomotive that the SP operated, even when operating at Donnor Pass.
I went to the museum during my ninth birthday which is 2019 and when I saw 4294 i thought to myself it be nice to restore the locomotive but the money the place to store here and the place to run her it’s just a a lot of work but I hope someday some one will restore here
Having lived in SP territory all my life, some of my favorite steamers are designs the Southern Pacific used. One of the first books about trains I had as a kid was a brief overview of several different steam locomotives, and the first one in that book was an AC-class articulated.
Another wonderful Hyce video, so cool to learn about the big Choo Choo. Such a unique piece of history and the opening shot of you standing next to it really puts its size into perspective.
What I find interesting is that despite having similar performance to UP's big boy, 4294 and the other cab forwards were built to very exact specifications; While their outward appearances changed over time, the AC-12s were fundamentally the same locomotives as the AC-6s under the hood, and in fact some earlier cab forwards were rebuilt with newer front ends after wrecks or just when SP decided it was time to upgrade them, these engines became nearly indistinguishable from their wartime sisters. This isn't to say they didn't receive upgrades over time or you can't tell them apart, you can, and they did, but from the AC-4 through to the AC-12 they never changed the core fundamentals of the design: the boiler, firebox, and wheelbase all stayed _exactly_ the same. Additional fun fact: SP's AC-9s were also built to these same dimensions as well, except reversed, so they truly were "reverse cab forwards" down to the millimeter. Ever wondered what 4294 would look like setup cab-front? there's your answer. That's literally how a reversed cab forward looks.
I've seen these things run in simulations and am convinced that the air compressor would have driven me nuts had I actually had to drive one. It's also worth noting that many late steam engine designs that tried to compete with diesels but never got built also considered using a cab-forward design.
I’d love to see that too. Its oddities like the Cab Forwards that often inspire my many fantasy locomotive designs ive made. Seeing it run in real life or at least recorded running on modern tech would help with that, since I read somewhere that the valve gear was a bit different as well, though im not sure if thats accurate or not.
The Pennsylvania Railroad had an early electric known as the P5a, which was a boxcab electric. The cabs were located on each end of the locomotive until a grade crossing accident on the New York Division killed the crew when they struck an apple truck stuck on the crossing. After most P5a were redeveloped into the P5a (modified) which had a center "steeple cab" design, similar to the in prototyping GG1 and R1 electrics
There were still some in service when I was a little kid. A most impressive sight was seeing one leading a long string of yellow/orange Pacific Fruit Express reefers, possibly as many as 100, with a tuscan red bay window caboose heading silently north past the Lockheed plant in Burbank to cooler climes. Also got to see the 4449 which was then "our" locomotive, maintained in reserve in L.A.
Left out the miles of snow sheds that covered the line over the sierra mountains . They was a plan to send this cabforward on a tour but the cost and time needed to overhaul it was to high.
Always my favorite at the museum since I first went there as a child. Last time I was there the guy behind me in line was saying this was a bussman's holiday for him as he usually worked on the rotary plow. I think he meant he repaired it. He was grinning like a kid.
I rode in the cab of a coal burning steam locomotive and we went through a tunnel. I had firm confirmation of why they developed the cab forward engine. *Cough, cough...
8:29 What is this beautiful abomination of mechanical engineering? 😮 (As a ferroequinologist, I am drawn to the stranger-looking Locomotives, because they usually have quite the story behind them.)
I’ve been there quite a few times, and I love it there! The cab-forward is one of my favorite things they have, along with the A.T.S.F. F.7, and the S.P. snowblower. I love going down there!
This is the only big railroad museum ive been to! Back in 2015 when we took a trip down to san diego to visit family, we stopped by here. Fantastic experience
As a fan of the SP, and most of my models are of them.....I know it's gone... but the Daylight, the Black Widows, cabooses, and assorted other units ....including the Heritage Unit....well.... they all still make me happy when I see them.
My family was members of the SAC rail museum for years. You should go check out the Roseville yard to the north next time or the old Donner snow tunnels on the summit
What an amazing video! I was just in Strasburg at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Saw some amazing equipment, including a couple of Heisler Fireless. Also, Norfolk and Western 475 under steam.
It’s an awesome engine I had the privilege of sitting in the engineers seat on this locomotive about 6 years ago and one of the museum’s guides showed me all the engineers controls
There once was a standard gauge cog rail line which went up to a mine in the mountains (Erzbergbahn). Some documentaries were made about this line and how it operatet (steam locos until the closure of the line in the 70s) and one of them once shows the train going up through the tunnel from inside the cab (by the way every single train had two locos, one at the front and the other one at the back but I think that they split the train and let the two halfs go up one by one so the smoke was a bit more survivable, the fully loaded train got also split in half but didn´t connect behind the tunnel and instead went directly to the transfer station). They showed in the film, how the whole crew crouched on the floor of the cabin, held wet rags in front of their faces and tried not to pass out!
I´ve just searched it and you can find it at the Österreichische Mediathek and it´s called Zahnradbahn Eisenerz-Vordernberg (37 minutes long) Last two minutes: Tunnelscene
They would; yeah. I didn't think about that. But at the same time, mainline standard gauge grades aren't much compared to some of the narrow gauge madness I'm used to, lol! But yes, they'd have to carry it pretty high.
I've seen this many times and I still cannot get over the way this thing looks like a San Francisco streetcar and a Challenger loved each other very much in the fifth circle of hell.
Can’t wait to wach it! You’re my fav UA-camr dude. The rio grande really did love there fat af engines. THE BLOWDOWN OUSIDE WTF😂😂😂. Thanks for sharing the awesome vid dude, you’re the best.
im building a cargo bike but a moterised big one its going to be a seat were you sit above the rear wheel and the whole hood (train /ray's speederbike inspired) and after driving a normal cargo bike for some time that long nose yust makes you feel good so its not just tradition its seeing what you got
Thanks! This cleared up a question I had about cab-forwards since I first heard about them: were the engineer and fireman "reversed" so they were on the "correct" side going forward
Having never seen one of these in person, I didn't realize that they were so narrow. Makes it even more strange to look at, as if being backwards wasn't unusual enough.
Yes the tunnels were a big reason but the main reason was the 40 miles of snow sheds the Espee created to cover the Mountain over Donner as this was before major snow equipment. Espee wanted articulated engines but when they brought articulated mallets to the Hill it was so much smoke that it gave crews asphyxiation in the cab and killed them so they took the South Pacific Coast railroads one and only cab forward design and made their own. Espee being in the Southwest also was the first railroad to use oil as fuel in Steam engines and the Cab Forwards really go the ball rolling when it came to fully transitioning from wood.
I've seen two of the surviving Big Boys (4018 and, much more recently, 4014) but I'd love to go see 4294 someday. One thing about the Cab Forwards I always wanted to know but couldn't find much information on is why the eccentric cranks on the valve gear are angled differently than most other Walschaerts setups. I do know it's to reverse the valve motion but I wonder if that was really necessary since the "normal" setup of Walschaerts, with the eccentric cranks angled in the opposite direction, seems to work just as well in reverse.
Most American locomotives used Baker, rather than Walschaerts, valve gear -- don't know if that makes a difference. (Edit: actually, looks like Walschaerts at 3:02.) It might just be that the valve gear is more mechanically efficient when running "forwards". If that's the case, it would be worth switching it around for a locomotive that always runs in reverse.
This is the kind of goofy ass shit we need in Derail Valley. Give us one of these as the end game steamer, because it's the perfect blend of memes and usefulness that derail valley is best at.
Even though I've been to this museum, and seen this loco, the size of it alone is hard to comprehend, at the beginning when you walked next to it there was almost a look like it had to be a green screen because it felt out of scale (unless you're 3 feet tall). Just a massive locomotive all around. Not an engineer but I would think a better solution for tunnels is to simply have a way to close up the cab (windows and doors that are "air tight") then when you emerge open them back up.
I'd imagine an air tight cab would be hard to make & pretty dangerous in itself if it worked (if any CO from the firebox can enter that's catastrophically bad, but if it's only the CO2 the engineers breathe out that builds up, they'd probably remember to open back up once the headache & panic sets in). Then again, even the simplest solution for tunnels - 'hold your breath & drive real fast' - probably works a lot of the time!
@@nathansmith3608 Well the first key would be to prevent the sooty smoke from going into the cab I would think, other than that maybe they can have an air hole in the floor that goes close to track level air should be good there? Either way, not sure at what rate CO or CO2 would enter the cab, like you said hold your breath and go through, like the picture that was shown toss on a mask if it's a long tunnel, seems so much cheaper of a solution than redesigning the locomotive.
You mention tunnels but don't forget the snow sheds they had.
Yup - good point - very much moreso about the continuous snowshed and tunnel combo. I didn't really emphasize that enough, but figured the general public would understand tunnel and not necessarily snowshed. :)
I have actually been there
@@Hyce777 Hi, I'm a new fan, and I wonder as you are so passionate about train operations and functionality, would you be willing to give a look at Trans Siberian railway simulator.
I know it has many non train related shenanigans, but I think it has very curious train operations that can be interesting.
I live 40 minutes away from the museum
@@Daemorien He is aware, however it will probably only show up in a stream when he has had sufficient of the stronger stuff for commentary according to Hyce in a previous livestream.
It’s also worth mentioning that the cab forward design won an industrial design award back in the day, and 4294 itself is a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark. A very SP way to solve a unique problem.
Oh that's cool! Had no clue on either fact, but it makes sense.
nice
One of our engineers on the excursion line is an expert on this thing. He's a treasure for three big reasons:
1. He operated this locomotive itself
2. He was a mechanical engineer for SP who joined the operations aspect, so he knows every square inch of the beast
3. He has stories of these beasts that could make you cry
Oh my god. That's the kind of guy you want to sit down and interview.
@@Hyce777Could you do a video on Bulleid CIÉ Turf Burner and the last days of commercial steam in the UK being in Northern Ireland?
Hyce, I am 73 years old and enjoy watching your videos. My great uncle was an SP engineer out of Eugene,OR. (I was born there. but never lived there). He worked for SP his entire life and ran Cab Forwards and other locomotive over the Natron Cutoff and other routes. The Natron Cutoff had a big helper yard at Oakridge, OR. My Grandparents moved to Oakridge in the late 50's. I used to spend two or three weeks every summer with them and enjoyed every one of them as I was a kid from the big city of Portland ,OR. Their house was about two blocks from the SP mainline. Steam was gone but it was fun watching the trains. My great uncle died when I was young and I didn't get to know him. I wish I had known him as he probably had some great stories to tell about railroading from the 1890's to the 1950's.
Cool!
Oh my word. He really must have had so many stories... that's such a cool connection. I am glad you enjoy this videos too. :)
More Little Engines Big Men ❤
Being 69, an Oregonian and also born in Eugene but lived all my life in Bend. I've been through Oakridge many times and never realized the town had such an important SP history. Cool story!
The failed German Cab Forward 05 003 also is an interesting Tale. It failed because it was designed to burn Oil but then was changed to Coal Dust, for Strategic Reasons that probably explain themselves in 1930ies Germany. It suffered constant Combustion Issues because the Coal Dust couldn't be blown steady through the Fuel Piping that was designed for Oil. Following these Issues, the Locomotive was turned around to a conventional Design with Cab at the Back, and the streamlined Shell was removed too.
Coal dust firing has its own issues - coal dust in air is a high explosive. The tenders detonate if nitrogen blankets aren’t used (my great grandfather drove one in Australia in the 1930’s - they went through three tenders in a year of testing).
5:34 While designed primarily for freight service, the SP used the cab-forwards for passenger service with some regularity. That valve supplies steam for passenger car heating.
Getting around the smoke in tunnels problem is a fascinating part of railroad history. You can satisfy all kinds of foamers. Cab forewards, Portal to portal electric, or T motors. Great video on the cab forward!
Or gas masks (I know alot of foamers into those, for some reason...)
The EMD tunnel motors as well, those were specialized variants of the SD40-2 and SD45 that moved their air intakes to prevent overheating in long tunnels. They made about 500 of those for SP and Rio Grande, and several are still in service to this day.
I never knew about the hose situation from the temder to the locomotive, but the crazy design makes sense and gives me another new appreciation for the cab forwards.
This is why I love how Southern Pacific has the prettiest and powerful locomotives especially the 4-8-4 and the cab forwards. Plus 4449 is still rolling.
We hope! sucks to see an operating engine sit for years
@@YellowNoseProductions its owners say it runs. They had it out for their holiday train a couple of years ago, I think.
I remember when these monsters were in mainline service. The cab forward engine was designed mostly because of the SNOW SHEDS! As I recall there were more of those than tunnels in the Sierra. Also, that's supposed to be why Southern Pacific steam locomotives were oil fired, not coal fired. Cinders and sparks from a coal fire would set the snow sheds on fire - they were made of wood. I don't know if coal fired engines were ever allowed to run through the snow sheds - they certainly weren't in the 1950's. I didn't know that oil was cheaper than coal in California back then. Thanks for that. I lived in Crockett, CA in those days and most east bound rail traffic ran through our town. I loved these beasts, though they scared the crap out of me when I was little.
My favorite design feature is the earliest cab forwards and articulateds blew the roofs off the snowsheds on Donner Pass. So instead of some uber high tech blast nozzle or exhaust system, they just stuck a metal bar across the stacks. Low budget, low tech, and worked like a treat
Loading Gauge is such an interesting topic. In South Africa, our main network is Cape Standard Gauge (3'6" / 1067mm) yet our loading gauge is bigger than the UK's which runs on standard gauge track.
The UK should simply fix it's loading gauge to UIC loading gauge as everyone around them has.
It also took the Union only 48 hours to fix the gauges of the entirety of the traitor states post war and loading gauge is just one more word, what difference can that possibly make.
in the wise words of jeremy clarckson: "How hard can it be"?
As for comparing South Africa with the US, you probably have commuter trains faster than the entirety of the Americas has in intercity, not to mention other african countries that actually have HSR.
@@1121494 not actually true. We have one rapid rail system of only 50 route miles, runs up to 100mph. The national system is in shambles due to political nonsense (eg, catenary systematically removed - read stolen - whole tracks and sleepers stolen). All this came about in 2020 because the politicians have taxis and trucks in their pockets. When I speak of taxis, in our context, these are minibuses which are also run by gangsters and are above the law. Over the last year they have started to 'replace' what was stolen and slowly getting the network back and running - and wouldn't you know, just in time for elections in May. Its very bad down here, trust me things are way better up there by you. There is currently only one African country with HSR - that's Morocco using the French TGV trains. There is talks of introducing HSR here between our business center inland and the one port city, but nothing concrete yet and there is the problem of a plateau to overcome (in my mind this can be down with a series of helix's)
@1121494 the reason for the UK loading gauge problem, with the exception of parts of what was "God's Wonderful Railway", is that being first made them Guinea pigs, they were designed for the era when a locomotive had six wheels, maybe eight, and the tender had the same, all up not more than 20 tons, and it was road carriage sizes. The Pantechnicon was rarely seen in town. So bridges were lower, overall widths were narrower.
The bit about God's Wonderful Railway, is Brunel's 7'3" gauge, giant machines, but still not much bigger in the loading gauge.
@@1121494we have the Gautrain running in the Gauteng province… using the 1,435 m gauge
Another few facts worth mentioning (I may have done a little reading about cab forwards lol).
The air pump exhaust was SIGNIFICANTLY louder that portrayed in the museum.
The deck between the smokebox and the tender was referred to as “the monkey deck” because hobos often hitched rides up there.
The more modern cab forwards were also equipped to handle passenger trains, having a steam heat line.
Those who REALLY wanna deep dive into these things, should find a copy of Cab Forward by Dr Robert J Church. Hard fo find but a good edition to a foamer library.
I'd only heard of cab-forwards as a name. I didn't realize it's not just cab-forward, it's Whole Damn Locomotive Bass-Ackward. Including the articulated engine set. What a bizarrely beautiful machine.
Although I see the point about _not being in the crumple zone_ if you hit something.
Thanks for the video! Another great learning experience!!
Yeah I've seen that locomotive many times and never quite realized all the extra engineering needed to accommodate not just the reverse systems but the articulation. Dang.
It's been tried many ways. There were some attempts that had the engine the correct way around, and the engineer got his own cab. Those failed because of communication issues and the lack of Deadman protection.
Cab forward design is strangely beautiful in all its manifestations. The wheelhouse forward design of some lake freighter ships also seem unusual, but beautiful. The cab forward lorry models are almost gone in Canada but are beautiful. Modern diesel-electric locomotives have a cab forward design that is iconic. Aircraft are configured in a cab forward design. Automobiles have moved to a cab forward design, causing massive headaches to mechanics. They should be completely reworked to put the engine in the back with their current forward cab design. But, overall, cab forward is beautiful, except maybe automobiles.
2:02 i just keep thinking that surely it would be easier to make a tender that can run first at high speed cant possibly be as hard as the effort they went to to try and put the cab at the other end lol
SP had the tunnels and snow sheds to contend with, but they also had oil. I guess it’s not remembered very well these days, but the California oil fields were a big deal back in the day. Oil was cheaper than coal for the Southern Pacific. Even later, in my lifetime, I remember the oil pumps by the side of the freeway as a sign that we were getting close to LA. So cheap oil, expensive coal, and the tunnels and snowsheds combined to make cab-forwards more attractive to the SP than anyone else.
How railroads handled their tunnels would definitely be an interesting video. I know for a fact that my home railroad, the Boston and Maine, has a kind of funny story regarding the locomotives it uses for its big tunnel the Hoosac.
The Boston and Maine found that the ventilation systems the tunnel had weren't cutting it, so in an attempt to reduce smoke and fumes, they bought 4 oil-burning 2-6-6-2 Mallet type engines. Called the M-1 class they did not perform well enough and were sold off to the Maine Central when the tunnel was electrified less than a year later. Once the Maine Central got the M-1s they were converted to coal burners, renumbered, and reclassified as the X class and ran the Crawford Notch grade until being retired in 1935.
As much as I love steam locomotives the more I watch of Hyce the more the switch to Diesel Electric from not just a business standpoint but plain common sense and simplicity makes sense. On an unrelated note I didn't know anything narrower than RGW existed in the US. Crazy to think about something that massive on that narrow a gauge!
It's worth noting that at the time dieselisation was taking place, especially in Europe, there wasn't really a sadness to see the steam engines go. They were considered dirty, unpleasant machines to work on, where the diesels were clean and easy.
It's in fact our retrospective romanticism of steam that the appreciation mostly comes from.
Here in the UK, we had a similar loco, a steam loco that looks like a diesel called the Bullied Leader, an 0-6-0+0-6-0 with cabs at both ends, and the fireman cab in the middle so can run either direction. Instead of a separate tender, its all built in one. Front half is the boiler, the rear half is the "tender" part that holds the coal and water.
Thanks for another great video. You mentioned that some railroads ran their diesel locomotives Lon hood forward, one of these was the Norfolk and Western. They were one of the last to abandon steam, one reason was it was a “coal road” and stayed “loyal” to their customers. The locomotive crews almost refused to run the diesel short hood forward, so they bought their early hood units set up to run long hood forward. As you said the crews were concerned about safety.
I've heard that long hood forward was standard on the earlier ALCO diesels
0:20 that tree top lurking over the roof of the building looked a bit like a bigfoot easteregg :D
4:17 This is a certified pew-pew moment
Silliness aside, this was an excellent video! A really great presentation on the fascinating design of these unique beasts
There are two reasons why the SP had the tunnel issues that caused the cab forwards: Snow and Rock
The heavy, wet snow of the Sierra Nevada mountains is nicknamed sierra cement for a reason. It is so relatively wet, more slush than snow, that overnight it freezes solid. And so much falls on Donner pass that Union Pacific has two teams of rotary plows with two plows per team for that pass alone. Their third team is for the rest of their system. That much snow, and the avalanches it caused, led the Central Pacific, later Southern Pacific, to connect the tunnels together with snow sheds. 40 miles of snow sheds at one point.
As for the rock, the route over the Sierras, Donner pass, is almost entirely granite. Hard, tough granite that took years of blasting to dig through in the first place, averaging 2ft per day. And the longest was over 1600 feet long at the time. In the 1920s, the route was realigned with a two mile long tunnel to cut 1.3 miles off the total length and 130 feet lower in elevation at the summit. Even with this new tunnel, it was prohibitively expensive to add the large ventilation tunnels and shafts that other railroads used.
I went to the California State Railroad Museum once growing up. We were taking the Amtrak from Reno to Seattle, and you swap from the Zephyr to the Starlight in Sacramento. It's like a 9 hour transfer (you get in to SAC at 1500, then leave at like 23:50) which with the museum almost literally right next door is a perfect opportunity to stop by.
I remember seeing the cab forward and thinking "well ain't that more then just a little goofy"
I live near Sacramento and the museum is a great visit. Roseville also has a display of old locomotives. Thanks Hyce for this presentation.
I’m not sure if the museum has a detailed analysis of the complete condition of the Cab Forward. This unit was saved at the last moment and pieced together since scrapping on her had already begun. They cobbled together nearly everything and welded it up to look presentable and I think they did a great job. I’m guessing the main chassis/frame is unmolested and that’s what matters but the side rods and other main rods are from other units so they aren’t aligned and would require major work if not completely new rods and saddle pistons. Each locomotive is unique, a majority of the drive parts are not interchangeable to identical locomotives as we’re used to today. Like others, I wish with all I have that we could get a Cab Forward running again but it’ll take a lot more than is possible.
I've heard that at least one other railroad (Western Pacific? Rio Grande?) considered buying cab forwards as well. Maybe the Grande, I could see this being useful in the 6-mile Moffat Tunnel. And of course, the same miles and miles of tunnels and snowsheds that birthed the Cab Forwards later led to the Tunnel Motors that you've also done a video on.
Meanwhile, Great Northern opted just to electrify their tunnel, first the 2-ish mile one and then the 8-ish mile one. The wires came down in 1956, right about the same time the Cab Forwards were retired.
It’s amazing they can build so many of these machines with such complexity especially back in those days!
And good luck that one of those components don’t fail in a dangerous manner.
Short answer is the sp had lots of snowsheds and putting the cab in front allowed the crew to be in front of the smokestack, the crew being in front of the smokestack kept the crew from suffocating due to smoke in the tunnels and snow sheds. I drove one of these in trainsim 2017 and had a lot of trouble with starting on slopes
I've been to that museum many times. It's a must-see stop for any railroad enthusiast. And there's plenty to see even for non-choo-choo folks.
That is certainly one impressive locomotive, especially being able to get into the cab. Standing next to the driving wheels is also a pretty awesome experience.
Thanks for the video.
Holy crap this engine is MASSIVE, I come from the UK and this is just gargantuan. Most of the trains here aren’t this huge!
Great video and fun fact for you. The UK had cab forward locomotives too. They were found on the Glyn Valley Tramway and these were 2ft 4inc locomotives with an 0-4-0 layout and were designed as a cab forward and had skirts covering all the motion and the sides of the engine. To meet the rules of the tramway they had to give an un obstructed view for the driver, a speedometer and limiter to 10mph and they had turntables at each end of the tramway to turn the engine.
Theres also bulleid's abomination which is the Southern railway's leader class...
which looks like a normal diesel engine but it's steam and the fireman is IN THE MIDDLE.
@@davidty2006 Yeah those things were murder to the fireman and a sweat box being fully enclosed
I got to admit that little rinky dink cab forward thing you showed at the end of the video was pretty cute I do hope that one of these video games that are out or will be coming out features this locomotive in it because I've been dying to play it ever since I found out it was a possibility it was going to get added to railroads online.
And id like to say that I do agree with hyce let's all please support our local railroads if you are anywhere in South Carolina please please go to the South Carolina railroad museum they are desperately in need of funding to support rebuilding a steam locomotive that they have sitting outside it needs a new boiler and a lot of other things and they're trying to raise money to get it fixed.
My grandparents store their camping trailer in the shops where they were built. Unfortunately UP is buying it back from the guy they leased it to to use as a storage facility to tear it down. I have a bunch of pictures thankfully.
Listening to your point and seeing the front-end at 8:00, I'm reminded of the gas-powered railcars of the era. Collisions with grade-crossing traffic had a good chance of not ending well for the operator.
Hi Mark, this 101 episode about the why of a cab forward was fascinating. Gigantic choo-choo, Omg! Being a beginner, I hadn’t thought about this feature. Thanks for your excellent and succinct explanation. Also, what a great exhibit being able to enter the cab and actually sit in the fireman and engineer’s seats to examine the controls and all that. I echo your statement, Mark, about how beautifully the trains are preserved and exhibited at the California State RR Museum. They even include sounds that’s so cool! Loved hearing Brett’s observations, two experts conversing-can’t get any better! The 4294 is magnificent for sure and I hope to see this and the museum in person someday. Many, many thanks for yet another A+++ classroom field trip session and, as always, cheers to you Professor!
Wasn't there an incident where those long oil lines came back to bite them? I don't remember the specific story, but an oil line failed and dumped a bunch of oil on the rails. That was enough to cause the locomotive to wheelslip something fierce, and the resulting slack action caused a knuckle to fail and the train to dump, leaving the crew stranded in the tunnel as it filled with smoke and the fire spread. I don't think that was enough to stop SP from using them, but I remember hearing about something like that from, (I think) Train of Thought's channel.
Oh wow. Yeah, that's far from ideal.
For the curious, I found the video. I believe the story starts around the 5:25 mark.
ua-cam.com/video/QdCXdQqaz5o/v-deo.html
Just a random, off topic comment: In the early 2000's I use to work at the Milwaukee PBS station. We had several shows we produced, some of which were carried nationally to all the other PBS stations. One of those shows was called Tracks Ahead. I'm guessing you've probably heard of it. I used to work on that show alongside the producer and after watching several episodes of your show, I have to say that I'm getting serious Tracks Ahead vibes off your content. Keep up the good work.
I loved Tracks Ahead! Somedays, I still wish I had become a train engineer.
we in germany had a high speed cab forward, the br05 003 but that got converted to a normal locomotive (and the streamlining removed) after WW2
This thing was probably the biggest (literally) highlight of my trip there. Getting to sit in the cab of that thing is just awesome.
I used to go to that museum every year and I got to see that engine up close almost every time. I learned a few things about it from your video that I never know from seeing it in person.
Mark, I'm so glad you made this video! I remember awhile back asking you about a video like this, so I'm glad we got the HYCE stamp!
Thank you for showing the cab layout.
Living in Australia, it is unlikely that I would get to see the cab forward in person so this video is much appreciated.
Yes the gauge glasses might be behind you, but you would not always be watching them, only glancing at them every so often, more so the fireman than the engineer. The control and gauge layout seems appropriate for the time and the needs, the only fear being so close to the front if there is something on the track that should not be there.
5:57 so the cab forward is a 3/4-idiot-certified Brett-sized locomotive? LOL. 😂
The smoke in the tunnels was bad but also the snow sheds. SP had a lot of snow sheds. The device located right over the center of the twin stacks is a smoke splitter to lessen the exhaust damage to the roofs of the snow sheds. I don't think I have to ask what your Dead Head friends favorite Dead tune is. Side note: Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter often had trains mentioned in the songs they wrote for the Dead.
4294 is one if the most impressive pieces in the museum's collection. It's always fun to go see.
Always, ALWAYS thought it was one of the most intersting, exotic, BEAUTIFUL creations in metal..!
Thank you oh so very much in showing/ presenting that eerie cab interior..
One other cab-forward engine I wish made it into preservation was SP 4126.
By the way, the K-36 and K-37 class like the 491 shown in the outro his simply incredible track record. Out of the 20 that have been built, 17 still exist and 13 are still in working condition. Incredible, after basically 100 years. Many of the much newer locomotive types cannot be described like that.
I have got to see Southern Pacific Cab Forward 4294 displayed here at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, California. It’s a amazing big steam locomotive at the museum. We could’ve also had another SP Cab Forward preserved with that being Southern Pacific Cab Forward 4274. Which could’ve been displayed at the Western Railway Museum in Suisun City, California. Since it was known for being the last steam locomotive that the SP operated, even when operating at Donnor Pass.
Western Railway Museum didn't exist in 1957 nor are they fond of steam locomotive preservation.
I went to the museum during my ninth birthday which is 2019 and when I saw 4294 i thought to myself it be nice to restore the locomotive but the money the place to store here and the place to run her it’s just a a lot of work but I hope someday some one will restore here
Shout out to you for getting the museum out there as a long time member of the museum we spend every weekend there and it’s hardly ever busy.
Having lived in SP territory all my life, some of my favorite steamers are designs the Southern Pacific used. One of the first books about trains I had as a kid was a brief overview of several different steam locomotives, and the first one in that book was an AC-class articulated.
Another wonderful Hyce video, so cool to learn about the big Choo Choo. Such a unique piece of history and the opening shot of you standing next to it really puts its size into perspective.
What I find interesting is that despite having similar performance to UP's big boy, 4294 and the other cab forwards were built to very exact specifications; While their outward appearances changed over time, the AC-12s were fundamentally the same locomotives as the AC-6s under the hood, and in fact some earlier cab forwards were rebuilt with newer front ends after wrecks or just when SP decided it was time to upgrade them, these engines became nearly indistinguishable from their wartime sisters.
This isn't to say they didn't receive upgrades over time or you can't tell them apart, you can, and they did, but from the AC-4 through to the AC-12 they never changed the core fundamentals of the design: the boiler, firebox, and wheelbase all stayed _exactly_ the same.
Additional fun fact: SP's AC-9s were also built to these same dimensions as well, except reversed, so they truly were "reverse cab forwards" down to the millimeter. Ever wondered what 4294 would look like setup cab-front? there's your answer. That's literally how a reversed cab forward looks.
I've seen these things run in simulations and am convinced that the air compressor would have driven me nuts had I actually had to drive one. It's also worth noting that many late steam engine designs that tried to compete with diesels but never got built also considered using a cab-forward design.
I know it won’t for a long list of reasons, but if any engine would be cool to see in steam again it’d be this one for me.
Agreed.
I’d love to see that too. Its oddities like the Cab Forwards that often inspire my many fantasy locomotive designs ive made. Seeing it run in real life or at least recorded running on modern tech would help with that, since I read somewhere that the valve gear was a bit different as well, though im not sure if thats accurate or not.
Hyce, you need your own railroad TV program.
The Pennsylvania Railroad had an early electric known as the P5a, which was a boxcab electric. The cabs were located on each end of the locomotive until a grade crossing accident on the New York Division killed the crew when they struck an apple truck stuck on the crossing. After most P5a were redeveloped into the P5a (modified) which had a center "steeple cab" design, similar to the in prototyping GG1 and R1 electrics
There were still some in service when I was a little kid. A most impressive sight was seeing one leading a long string of yellow/orange Pacific Fruit Express reefers, possibly as many as 100, with a tuscan red bay window caboose heading silently north past the Lockheed plant in Burbank to cooler climes. Also got to see the 4449 which was then "our" locomotive, maintained in reserve in L.A.
Left out the miles of snow sheds that covered the line over the sierra mountains .
They was a plan to send this cabforward on a tour but the cost and time needed to overhaul it was to high.
I love the AC-1 because SP went
"Alright, MC-1 kinda shit... Let's flip it around and try that"
Always my favorite at the museum since I first went there as a child. Last time I was there the guy behind me in line was saying this was a bussman's holiday for him as he usually worked on the rotary plow. I think he meant he repaired it. He was grinning like a kid.
I rode in the cab of a coal burning steam locomotive and we went through a tunnel. I had firm confirmation of why they developed the cab forward engine. *Cough, cough...
8:29 What is this beautiful abomination of mechanical engineering? 😮
(As a ferroequinologist, I am drawn to the stranger-looking Locomotives, because they usually have quite the story behind them.)
Ferroequinologist just rolls off the tongue!
I’ve been there quite a few times, and I love it there! The cab-forward is one of my favorite things they have, along with the A.T.S.F. F.7, and the S.P. snowblower. I love going down there!
This is the only big railroad museum ive been to! Back in 2015 when we took a trip down to san diego to visit family, we stopped by here. Fantastic experience
As a fan of the SP, and most of my models are of them.....I know it's gone... but the Daylight, the Black Widows, cabooses, and assorted other units ....including the Heritage Unit....well.... they all still make me happy when I see them.
Another great video Hyce!! I wonder how much having an enclosed cab added to crew comfort, especially up in the Sierras!
My family was members of the SAC rail museum for years. You should go check out the Roseville yard to the north next time or the old Donner snow tunnels on the summit
What an amazing video! I was just in Strasburg at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Saw some amazing equipment, including a couple of Heisler Fireless. Also, Norfolk and Western 475 under steam.
I knew this thing was big, but didn't know it was THAT big. Cool video on a class that... doesn't get talked about hardly at all.
There is one more surviving tender for the cabforward in Oregon from what I’ve been told by some of the ppl at this museum since I am a local
It’s an awesome engine
I had the privilege of sitting in the engineers seat on this locomotive about 6 years ago and one of the museum’s guides showed me all the engineers controls
I appreciate this the more I learn about it. At first I ignored it or just didn't pay much to it but I appreciate it. Genius
There once was a standard gauge cog rail line which went up to a mine in the mountains (Erzbergbahn). Some documentaries were made about this line and how it operatet (steam locos until the closure of the line in the 70s) and one of them once shows the train going up through the tunnel from inside the cab (by the way every single train had two locos, one at the front and the other one at the back but I think that they split the train and let the two halfs go up one by one so the smoke was a bit more survivable, the fully loaded train got also split in half but didn´t connect behind the tunnel and instead went directly to the transfer station). They showed in the film, how the whole crew crouched on the floor of the cabin, held wet rags in front of their faces and tried not to pass out!
I´ve just searched it and you can find it at the Österreichische Mediathek and it´s called Zahnradbahn Eisenerz-Vordernberg (37 minutes long) Last two minutes: Tunnelscene
I didnt hear any mention of water level problem, but wouldn't they have to carry it super high during steep climbs?
They would; yeah. I didn't think about that. But at the same time, mainline standard gauge grades aren't much compared to some of the narrow gauge madness I'm used to, lol! But yes, they'd have to carry it pretty high.
@@Hyce777yeah, good that real world doesnt have the same water slosh as DV. I think you would not be allowed to run these things ;)
I've seen this many times and I still cannot get over the way this thing looks like a San Francisco streetcar and a Challenger loved each other very much in the fifth circle of hell.
Can’t wait to wach it! You’re my fav UA-camr dude. The rio grande really did love there fat af engines. THE BLOWDOWN OUSIDE WTF😂😂😂. Thanks for sharing the awesome vid dude, you’re the best.
Fingers crossed for a 101 vid on the CP Huntington.
Such a cool and mesmerizing piece of American Engineering at its finest! Great museum and excellent locomotive!
Cab forwards. Because SP duplex cabover semi steamer is real and *will* hurt you
im building a cargo bike but a moterised big one its going to be a seat were you sit above the rear wheel and the whole hood (train /ray's speederbike inspired) and after driving a normal cargo bike for some time that long nose yust makes you feel good
so its not just tradition its seeing what you got
Thanks! This cleared up a question I had about cab-forwards since I first heard about them: were the engineer and fireman "reversed" so they were on the "correct" side going forward
As you saw in the video, the engineer's seat is on the right and the fireman on the left, as usual.
These Cab-Forwards can be found on virtually anywhere on the SP system in thier later days. Even seen powering trains in the relatively flat Bay Area.
It's said that the last cab forward locomotive is preserved "ready to run." It would be amazing to see this locomotive to run again.
Short answer: so the engineers and firemen didn’t pass out in Southern Pacific’s long tunnels and snow sheds.
Having never seen one of these in person, I didn't realize that they were so narrow. Makes it even more strange to look at, as if being backwards wasn't unusual enough.
ive been to that mueseum, it is so fun, they have a second story where they have model railroads and trains, its so cool and fun
Hyce, I’d like to see a video on the SOU CNOTP smoke deflectors and smoke hoods if you think it’s possible.
From what I recall there’s a mirror mounted to the fireman can see the sight glass without looking over his shoulder.
I got to see the last Railfair in 99 in Sacramento as a five year old, still have some great memories of it :)
Should have a look at a loco on the other southern railway here in the UK called the leader class. thanks for taking the time to produce you videos.
That thing is an abomination...
Yes the tunnels were a big reason but the main reason was the 40 miles of snow sheds the Espee created to cover the Mountain over Donner as this was before major snow equipment. Espee wanted articulated engines but when they brought articulated mallets to the Hill it was so much smoke that it gave crews asphyxiation in the cab and killed them so they took the South Pacific Coast railroads one and only cab forward design and made their own. Espee being in the Southwest also was the first railroad to use oil as fuel in Steam engines and the Cab Forwards really go the ball rolling when it came to fully transitioning from wood.
It was the North Pacific Coast’s design
@@kenmiddlebrook4704 good catch, wrong direction
I love can forwards, it like a SW8 mixed with a big boy, SP is just that dang special kid.😂
I've seen two of the surviving Big Boys (4018 and, much more recently, 4014) but I'd love to go see 4294 someday. One thing about the Cab Forwards I always wanted to know but couldn't find much information on is why the eccentric cranks on the valve gear are angled differently than most other Walschaerts setups. I do know it's to reverse the valve motion but I wonder if that was really necessary since the "normal" setup of Walschaerts, with the eccentric cranks angled in the opposite direction, seems to work just as well in reverse.
Most American locomotives used Baker, rather than Walschaerts, valve gear -- don't know if that makes a difference. (Edit: actually, looks like Walschaerts at 3:02.) It might just be that the valve gear is more mechanically efficient when running "forwards". If that's the case, it would be worth switching it around for a locomotive that always runs in reverse.
I would definitely restore this locomotive
This is the kind of goofy ass shit we need in Derail Valley. Give us one of these as the end game steamer, because it's the perfect blend of memes and usefulness that derail valley is best at.
I was at the museum in the 80 ‘s. I saw this engine. It’s a monster.
Even though I've been to this museum, and seen this loco, the size of it alone is hard to comprehend, at the beginning when you walked next to it there was almost a look like it had to be a green screen because it felt out of scale (unless you're 3 feet tall). Just a massive locomotive all around.
Not an engineer but I would think a better solution for tunnels is to simply have a way to close up the cab (windows and doors that are "air tight") then when you emerge open them back up.
I'd imagine an air tight cab would be hard to make & pretty dangerous in itself if it worked (if any CO from the firebox can enter that's catastrophically bad, but if it's only the CO2 the engineers breathe out that builds up, they'd probably remember to open back up once the headache & panic sets in). Then again, even the simplest solution for tunnels - 'hold your breath & drive real fast' - probably works a lot of the time!
@@nathansmith3608 Well the first key would be to prevent the sooty smoke from going into the cab I would think, other than that maybe they can have an air hole in the floor that goes close to track level air should be good there? Either way, not sure at what rate CO or CO2 would enter the cab, like you said hold your breath and go through, like the picture that was shown toss on a mask if it's a long tunnel, seems so much cheaper of a solution than redesigning the locomotive.