The Tragedy of the N&W Y5
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
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This is the tragic story involving the incident of the Norfolk and Western Y5 locomotive #2114. To my knowledge this video is the first covering this incident on UA-cam! The video outlines the lack of maintenance action on a series of reported issues with this particular locomotive that directly led to a tragic ending.
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The fact that the fisherman was a MILE away from the explosion and parts of the locomotive passed over him is absolutely terrifying.
Apparently the Railroad had the "something may happen, but probably won't" attitude.
Thanks for another great episode! I think that you are probably right. Water was not getting into the boiler and I suspect that the low water whistle was simply not working. Once the water level dropped below the crown sheet, the metal would have been heated until it was red hot. Either a change in gradient or speed caused the water to wash over tha plate and immediately turned into superheated steam and the sudden increase in pressure caused the explosion. The same thing happens in steamships when a leak allows cold water to contact the firebox. Those maintenance crews should have been charged with negligent homicide. Their lack of action is just unbelievable.
Very questionable practices to be sure that probably would not be gotten away with today
A lot of railroads had that "Locomotive don't make no money laid up or in a berth" mentality. Sadly this kind of thing was the end result.
Yeah but they were already withdrawn from service, so I still dunno why one of them couldnt have been thrown into the corner of the yard.
Scrap value is the answer. Due to all the specialty alloys and etc. used to manufacture steam locomotives of that era, the price for scrap was double the amount for purchase even for that time.@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower
this sounds like an absolutely unacceptable level of negligence. this locomotive was a ticking time bomb and I think your anger is right. Obviously the human factor is the biggest tragedy, but the animal deaths are, at the very least, someone's livelihood being affected in a horrible way.
I am also surprised the accident investigation wasn't more complete, given this is the type of accident that could easily serve as grounds for a full investigation in the repair facility.
From Effff Jay????
Not sure what you're asking?
Thank you for the input.. I get pretty agitated seeing this stuff. Even if it doesn't involve me.
@@joshandkorinnayes
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPoweri am just popular on a random site. No worries man.
This kind of crap is still common in the work place to this day . Trust me
Yep! Only at least today it's much easier to expose the nonsense than it was in 1950.
I love the Great Big Humongous steam locomotives. Why are safety issues ignored. I would think that NO Railroad would want these safety issues to be ignored despite the cost of PROPER MAINTENANCE.
Not that it doesnt happen still today, because it does... But in 1950 and despite of N & W's passion for steam; Steam was a very difficult proposition to maintain financially. Much to my chagrin, N & W quite apparently was not immune to these save a buck practices. It was a most disappointing thing for me to see. thanks for commenting!
In the end, high maintenance cost headed the list of factors which lead to the downfall of the steam locomotive. Safety and pollution weren't among them, as they don't appear on the general ledger.
Can't argue with any of that!
And overall labor costs. Each engine required an engineer and fireman and there was no way to "Multiple" steam engines as with a diesel. Three engines on the head end? Three crews. Couple five diesels together and you only need one crew. In addition, diesels were available 90% or more of the time with very little downtime. Servicing was easy. In a few short years, terminals no longer needed 300-man roundhouse forces to maintain the fleet, and other than main shops most engine facilities could be manned by a working foreman each shift who could fuel, sand, and water the engines.
It should be noted there were strict Federal regulations from the 1920s on about humanely transporting livestock including water stops and restrictions on being in the cars too long at a time, so it is a bit of a stretch to say "no one cared" about the livestock.
As to the boiler explosion, it cannot be denied that many engine crews were so-called "low water experts" who believed that engines steamed better when running less than full. My late grandfather was a B&O trainman and he told me he got nervous as a head brakeman with some of those guys when the water was barely bobbing in the bottom of "the glass".
Overreacting? Not really. The supervision in Portsmouth was not good at all. The N&W was a generally well-run railroad, but there may have been a different culture in Ohio than Roanoke.
@@B-and-O-Operator-Fairmont Thanks for the comment. Good info! I cant imagine being an engineer purposely running on less than full water for any reason. Not when I am driving a potential bomb like a steam locomotive otherwise can be. Just crazy!
The cold water could have been from the injector overflow. A typical trick to persuade a stubborn injector, especially if it got hot, is to let cold water run through the injector and out of the overflow to cool it. Could also have come from a fractured feed hose from tender to the footplate.
One wonders, considering the appalling maintenance standards on this loco, if the low water alarm was actually functioning. Also if the injector clack stuck open the water level would soon start to drop, but not as quick as seams to have happened.
Is there a change in gradient on this line that could explain a change of water level over the crown?
According to the ICC report there is a gradual increase in grade on the Eastbound run this loco was on. The travel distance was nearly 100 miles from point A to point B. The max grade was 1.5% So what you're saying is possible in my mind. Also, i'm thinking ruptured hose/pipe from excessive back pressure of a failed pump system (seized) This actually happened in my Nissan 240SX. The water pump seized, blew the hoses and then the pump actually shot off it's mount on the engine block and through the fan shroud. It damaged the whole nose of the car. Just think of what something like that would be with far greater pressure than a car?!?!
the cold water feed from the tender to the pump wouldn't be pressurised. If the pump stopped working, nothing on that line would be pressurised.
Your car hose failed, because the efforts of combustion heat the cooling water up plus is naturally pressurised slightly from the heating of the water (i cant remember now but I think its normally around 12psi above atmosphere?) . The circulating pump on a car doesn't pressurise. Its centrifugal pump designed for volume not pressure, and it simply circulates the water around the cylinder block to get a good flow from the bottom to the top of the radiator. The hose will have failed because he pump failed, but the pressure was from the heating of the cooling water not from the pump failing.
@@James_Rivett Well okay then! That answers that!
All US steam locomotives of that era were required to have 2 methods to get water into the boiler. Usually there was an injector on the engineers side and the fireman's side could either be an injector or some type of feedwater pump system. Were all these defect reports available to engineers like A/C logbooks for pilots?
Yes they were with many of the Roads. Engineering log books were kept. As for the injector(s) According to the ICC report, they consulted the N&W's blueprint of the Y5 and noted that only one injector was in use on the series. I found that rather surprising myself.
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower Yes, they only had one injector because the other method of getting water in the boiler was through the Worthington BL type feedwater heater. The BL or any type of FW heater was the responsibility of the fireman to operate and the engineer had the injector as a supplement and backup. Record books were kept of repairs but I have never seen anything stating that road crews had access to any prior maintenance performed other than word-of-mouth.
@@rogerhuber3133 The idea of just one injector was not a good one IMO, regardless of the Worthington. The prior maintenance was revealed by the ICC report findings. The locomotives had a log kept by the engineers for performance issues, maintenance issues, freight consists, weights etc. Now whether or not they were privy on what was done priorly on the locomotive, I do not know. in the least it would be up to the engineer to review the log.. And then ask questions about what was done. Im assuming a copy of the maintenance done on such requests was obtained for the log book. Or maybe not.. it was 1950, you know? I just know that is SOP in the least in todays world.
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower I don't know if it was a "good idea" or not but apparently the builders, railroads and ICC at the time felt it was necessary for two methods to provide water to the boilers. Apparently due to the many thousands of locomotives built with the various types of FW heaters they must have been a fairly reliable method of accomplishing that. In everything I've read and old engineers I talked to nothing has been said about a logbook available to them before taking on a trip. I'm sure with the ICC back then records were kept somewhere of all reports and maintenance performed be it scheduled or unscheduled.
Not a good idea meaning not having at least two actual injectors.. Primary and a backup. Sorry for the clarity issue :)
I merely have a question, what happened to the third
Lôcomotive person on the Tender when the boil blew, if known?
After reading the ICC report, it makes me wonder if the 2114’s crown sheet was already damaged when the crew departed Clare. That probably would mean that the crown sheet had been dry before, possibly coinciding with one of the previous “water issue” reports.
Yes! Exactly what my thinking was once my original theory was debunked. I asked that to another poster yesterday. You can see their reply within the comments here
Is the locomotive crew to blame for not ensuring thathe crown sheet wasubmerged? Are there notwo boiler water level sight glasses? Thank you.
A steam locomotivexploded south of Littleton, Colorado when the water apparently ran forward off the crown sheet. When the locomotive rolled onto level track, the water flowed rearward onto the crown sheet and flashed. Engineer, Fireman and "Trespasser" (photographer) were killed.
@@robertgift Well, I think they are to be blame for getting into the locomotive to begin with. The pump/injector system had numerous reports of being wonky leading up to the accident. So my hunch is the water levels thru site glass, etc. was all over the place. That loco had to of been a nightmare for them to handle.
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower Thank you.
Great uncle said allocomotives had their own personalities/quirks. It was commonplace that engineers and firemen delt with whathey got and cleverly overcame the problems. (I found a way of filling our firetruck's water tank through the pump rather than connecting a hose and filling from the top hatch which could easily flood the hose bed. Hose would need to be taken out andried)
So.rry thathey died andocomotive destroyed. Or was it rebuilt?
@@robertgift Nope, it was destroyed.
After reading the comments I did, it seems that there were several factors leading up to this tragedy. 1. A compromised Injector. 2. A design flaw in not having the second injector. 3. A lack of proper water control to the boiler through the one defective injector. 4. The crown sheet over heated more than once, as you stated the steel was a “true blue” indicating it had become very hot, probably, several times. A weakened crown sheet, low water, probably, and a good “head of steam” is definitely a recipe for disaster.
And the lack of available information and photo's outside of the ICC report suggests the railroad itself was purely held accountable. I.E. the crew couldn't be blamed. As a result, I think the N & W internalized the whole thing, as in " Top Secret" and made like it never happened. I think the explosion happened rather quickly to a point the crew couldn't even begin to respond.
Unfortunately, this same disregard for propper response to drivers concerns also applies to most of the major trucking companies. They will force drivers to take the rig out regardless of needed repairs. I always carried tools with me for most issues that I could handle without major shop time. You give it a bad order and requested repairs, sure as hell even after the shop returns it as good, the same issue still hasn't been repaired.
It's 2024 and we havent come up with a way to properly balance safe operations and capitalism.
Thank you *(RXR)* . Well done. Thank you for the pictures. My great uncle was a locomotivengineer. A steam locomotive is a potentiabomb.
Were any of those responsible, charged?
What is a lowater alarm on a steam locomotive? How does it operate? Thank you. (Like you, I car about animals. Also had a beloved potbellied pig, Piganini. He played the toy piano withisnout. You never sausage a pig!)
Public info on this accident is very, very scarce. Which tells me the railroad was responsible solely in this accident. The low water alarm is a device that go's off quite loudly if the water level in the boiler drops to a certain level. Which potentially gives the crew time to respond appropriately. It never went off in this case. Yeah, I get that they likely were going to slaughter. It's the needless suffering that was totally unacceptable here. And by all info. available, should have been avoided.
This was all very sad and avoidable, but when I think of 1218 and 2156 sitting cold, that really makes me despair of the 2,000,000 Railway enthusiasts and companies attitude in so much that if all we enthusiasts gave just £20 each, that would be £40, 000,000 , which would be enough to refurbish these fine machines .
If one of the US Railway societies opened a fund, many would contribute, even if we were only to see a video of a genuine revenue train being hauled by these locos, as well as specials 😊 .We can do this in the 🇬🇧 and Germany 🇩🇪 , new builds showing whats possible 🤔 😊
Yes, I totally agree!
Nice video!
Glad you enjoyed it
The crown sheet failed, dumping the water right into the fire----KABOOM!!! This is why the low water alarm never went off. Just as soon as the water hit the fire, it was all over---INSTANTLY!!!!! If she was using soft plugs, the soft plugs very well could've failed, also dumping the water right into the fire. The boiler pressure could've blown out the soft plugs, also dumping the water right into the fire.
Were there plugs that intentionallyvouldump water onto the fire? If the crew knew of a critical danger, how quickly could they dump the fire? Thank you.
Which would suggest the crown had been damaged already..Which I now think was the case.
I think the crown sheet was damaged from a previous incident. I do not think that there was time for the crew to do anything. Public info seems to be very guarded on this incident. Which to me indicates the responsibility fell on the railroad solely
I’m not sure what kind of metal the injector is made from, however it sounds as though the lubricator failed as well as the pump seizing from a buildup of deposits from the water or corrosion inside the pump body. This defect should have been taken care of on the first write up! There is no excuse for deferred maintenance when human lives are at stake. As a retired CDL driver, if I find a defect on my inspection (even as much a single marker light) I can refuse to operate that equipment until the defect is repaired. If this locomotive crew knew of the defect, they should have made sure it had been corrected, and maintenance should have made the proper repairs before the crew moved the locomotive.
Complete failure on the maintenance end. I totally believe the railroad was faulted for this accident.. Thus why nothing is available outside of the federal investigation report.
Absolutely! Had the repairs been made in a timely manner (first write up) this incident wouldn’t have happened. With the information you provided, several crews had reported the same defect, why hadn’t one of other roundhouses made the repairs? There was a very obvious defect in the water system. Personally, the first shop foreman that cleared this locomotive as “ fit for service” should have been held responsible for these men’s tragic, avoidable deaths. Other terminal maintenance managers should have been held criminally accountable as well. The railroad did these men wrong, just to save a few bucks in maintenance.@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower
@@johnbeck3270 Yes, I agree.. And I do legitimately get worked up whenever I see a story like this. I dont care if it's 1950 or whenever, you know? Because it still go's on today.
The fault lies with the lack of THOROUGH inspections and follow up service. Multiple complaints on the same issue bears this out.
Not only that, but related equipment multiple reports as well!
Very poor maintenance department. The foreman should have been sacked for not following up properly.
With the severe lack of secondary material to draw from right down to photo's; I can only conclude the railroad was found at fault. Now, what happened thereafter to personnel involved is purely theatre. But we can safely assume that appropriate remedies were carried out behind closed doors.
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower
One would hope so.
Isn't a Boiler Explosion caused by water being added and hitting the RED HOT Crown Sheet ? That being said, that would mean the water pump WAS working.
Pretty positive it cam be caused be an exposed crown sheet that fails due to getting soft and can also fail from water being added to rapidly to an exposed crown sheet. So yes you're correct, but it can also fail due to being exposed too long.
no that's a false understanding that many have. It will lead to cracking and fatigue, and chrisalisation of the steel that has been chilled, and after that be susceptible to failing failure do to the hardening of the steel.
An overheated crown sheet becomes soft, and the steam pressure will either try to rip the crown sheet off its stays, or start to deform the plate areas that are unsupported. In US boiler construction practice, the stay is what we call a straight stay in the UK, in that it is simply sealed off on the fire side by calking over the head or a bead of weld. With this practice, when the crown becomes over exposed, and soft, it is much easier to pull the sheet off the crown stays, often with a deadly explosion. With UK practice, a nut is placed on the fire side of the crown sheet to help support and spread to load area of the crown on the stay. This wont prevent a overheated crown from failure (assuming the fusible plug is in operative), but does seam to prevent the sudden and uncontrolled explosions that seamed to be common in the US. The last deadly crown failure of the railway loco in the UK was during WW2 when the USATC loaned the UK railways some S160's for trial and running in, and they were the first explosions on UK railways for 20 years. the one previous being a shell failure due to inoperable safety valves.
The other thing that squirting cold feed water onto a overheated firebox can do (assuming its a riveted firebox not a welded one) is couse the seams or rivetts to leak and fizzle as with rivets become strained, and the caulked seams become distorted by the shock.
On Lancashire mill boilers, if the boiler water fell too low, it used to make the flue tube distort in the middle. if court in time, the feed water would chill the tube and it would stay in its deformed state, but if not court, it would continue to deform until the flue was either ruptured, or pulled out of the boiler end plates. Much testing was carried out in the late 1800's regarding explosions caused by rapid cooling of overheated boilers under pressure. None exploded, but non were in very good health after.
The boiling point of water increases with pressure. It is 212 degrees F at sea level (14.7 PSI). In a locomotive boiler it depends on the operating pressure, but is closer to 400 degrees. The boiling point is the temperature where water can exist as either a liquid or gas. As long as the boiler is intact they are in equilibrium.
When water turns to steam it expands by about 1600 times in volume. Small leaks don't change the boiler pressure enough to upset the equilibrium. You get a tiny change in pressure or temperature. But if you depressurize a boiler suddenly then the water of the boiler will flash into steam, quickly and in large quantity. It is the depressurization caused by a rupture of the crown sheet that triggers the explosion. The steam has a path to escape, usually through the firebox which had ripped open. As the steam escapes it carries away some heat but also lowers pressure inside the boiler further, lowering the boiling point even more. The process continues until a new equilibrium is reached, with most of the water turned to steam and the remaining water at 212 F (or less if it is above sea level).
According to the ICC report, the crown sheet was tinted to a true blue color.. which indicates to me a total breakdown of the metal to a brittle state. Over exposure to extreme heat and then failure due to extreme pressure
Exactly right..see my response below.. The crown sheet turned blue!!
Not my field, but, there is a FRA web site that has the accident reports for these, 1950 should be extensive. Not my thing, but you should take a look.
Yes! That is in fact where I found the ICC report for this incident. I wasn't looking for this one.. I came across it while looking for something else, and it wound up taking priority because of the blatant disregard from maintenance.. And then there wasn't even any secondary material elsewhere to work with.. So that tells me the railroad paid for this one in full.
Amazing that all the hogs were killed but the brakeman survived!
The hog cars derailed.. many were either killed outright or later put down. I had no info on what had happened to the brakeman injury wise. He just wasnt on the casualty report.
SAME basic problem... LACK of Properly done Maint. due to CUTS in Employees. Instead of N&W, it's NS.
Unfortunately, same company!
"cost the lives of several hundred hogs"... that were headed to slaughter, fwiw. kind of dramatic way of stating things
Do we know that? Could have just as well been a farmers purchase and they were being transported. The point was, not all of the hogs were killed by the accident right away. It's the suffering! Heading for slaughter or not that's unacceptable!! It's unacceptable because of negligence and it should have been avoidable. This wasn't a unseeable accident and nothing could have been done. So no, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.. It's not being being dramatic.
I'm surprised at your high dudgeon over an event that occurred so long ago that the company that existed then is long gone as, I suspect are most (if not) all of those who contributed to the event. Yes, the performance of some maintenance people was a major contributor to this tragedy and corporate culture may have been involved, at least locally. We cannot fix the past. Let us, instead, use this as a lesson to be applied to today's technology.
I hear that, but these practices continue to happen today. The only difference being it's a lot harder to hide them.. like this one was. You would be extremely hard pressed to find any info. or even any pictures of this incident. Today, it would be all over the place. The N & W is not long gone. It is alive and well. Just a name change when they absorbed the Southern Railroad.
They should have, put those mechs an the Forman in jail
In the least I am sure they took the fall. I saw nothing that could place blame on the crew unlike the Allegheny 1642 accident.
No your not over reacting this, if anything your under reacting
Appreciate the support!
No you are not overreactiog.
Thank you for responding!
You are over reacting. That was 75 years ago. All person are now dead and steam is no more.
Overreacting ........
Thanks !
Check with the Norfolk And Western historical society. They have official documents plus shop paper work, they did a article on this a year or so ago.
I checked their site prior to the video.. If they did, it's not published. Didn't see it in the Arrow either.
@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower Need to check with Ken Miller the editor of the arrow, he can steer you in the right direction
sad to see but the companies have been shitting on their employees for 70+ years. profits BEFORE safety.
Yes! I agree!
Even the N&W? As far as I know, they were a good company and the employee reviews from the time were pretty positive. Of course, there were a couple of hiccups every now and then like in the video.
@@Train_Tok_Man There was another commentor who had some knowledge from a relative who worked with the N & W... And they said there were issue's with the N & W's Ohio operations.. And after seeing the ICC report on this.. I believe it! I was most disappointed because the N W was pretty much the leader in everything steam in the end.
@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPowerOhio's always been weird and shitty
The N&W was actually a very good company to work for, I come from 3 generations. People who think or feel they are getting screwed from their employers need to find a job. As I tell my employees is you do like it here. Working here is a option. You don't have to work here
East Palestine anyone? Since were talking maintenance negligence.