“The gospel is that I am so sinful that Jesus had to die for me, yet so loved and valued that Jesus was glad to die for me. This leads to deep humility and deep confidence at the same time. I can’t feel superior to anyone, and yet I have nothing to prove to anyone.” - Tim Keller
@@davepugh2519 Since you are not qualified to make a judgment like that, your feeling has no significance. What should affect your feelings is the fact that as a sinner, God has provided His own dear Son as your personal Savior... which you dearly need!
God bless you, Gavin. I can’t even express to you how grateful I am for your videos. I am a newer Christian who is ravenously curious but also, admittedly, kind of gullible. I have gotten sucked into just about every single-issue sub sect of Christian internet culture over the last year and I have been in prayer about all of it. I believe God has heard my prayers and recognized my sincere confusion and has therefore led me to you. Your videos are so comforting and balanced. They always seem to ground me. You are also such a great example of how to disagree with grace. Thank you 🙏
Thank you @@jannaswanson271 ! I read scripture every day and pray for discernment but there is still a prideful and sinful part of me that has biases that definitely come into play when I study the Bible. We all have different spiritual gifts according to scripture and we can use those gifts to support and edify one another. I love listening to Christians with teaching gifts because they can illuminate the scripture that I struggle to comprehend.
Not sure there are many better guides than Gavin. The internet is an internet distribution network. Obviously. That means it will distribute all information, but it has no discernment. It is disembodied, and does not respect the whole human person. It tears us limb from limb. People are reduced to their passions, to slivers of their opinions, to disconnected words. To learn patiently from a wise teacher, even at one remove, is, on the other hand, humanizing.
@@LemonLimeJuiceBarrell I do know what you mean but I have not found one YT preacher that agrees with Scripture 100%. When it comes to the Scripture I simply believe God. If I don't understand I ask for Him to teach me and I wait. Once you understand the depth and breadth of the lies we are taught You will have a hard time standing. Believe God, believe scripture.
I am a YEC guy and have never even come close to being persuaded otherwise, but I completely agree with your points here Gavin. Thanks for the video. Keep up the good work, brother!
@tonyfrederickson6692 unironically being a strict literalist is the antithesis of what Christ preached. Being a literalist is profane and always has been. It's this simple minded reactionary condemnation from people who don't know what they don't know that really amazes me. You argue from ignorance and use it as a pedestal. Smh
I am a biochemist with a PhD. I am a scientist and a creationist who believes that God created the universe. However, I do believe that our creation debate has gone wrong and I do believe that Augustine’s view, as highlighted in Dr.Ortlund’s book, is a significant help in working through the the issue.
Augustine perspective is good in the sense that it brings awareness that the struggle with the text is not new, however, Gen 1 has to be interpreted in its ancient near East context. Look into that.
Augustine was a fallible man who was not a font of pure doctrine. The Bible is sufficient to enlighten us about the flood. 2 Tim 3:16-17. The only issue concerning the Flood is we have Christians who do not want to believe the Word of God.
Keep on building. The problem that is not appreciated much is the many interpretations of Genesis that have come down to us in time. If you get the bible commentary on Gen 1-15 by Wenham you will get an appreciation of many ways to look at Genesis. There are so many against science yet God said to look at nature to see the greatness of Him and this would include the study of physics. Luther appealed to Joshua [10:12] to prove the sun revolves around the sun. He called Copernicus a FOOL! Luther said God commanded the sun to be still and not the earth! It seems that many have not learned that our interpretations can be wrong. The bible was not written as a science book and yet many want it to be read literally like a science book. The bible was written according to the times of the people they were written to. This doesn't make the bible wrong but accommodating to their times. Here is a list of books I found really helpful to see Genesis in other ways. I'm sure I will get flack for this in the comments but they will help you and your faith and you will no longer be caught in a false dichotomy between literalism and interpretations that seem fixed in cement. You can hold the interpretations a little more lightly and maybe even see the deeper truths of Genesis that go much deeper than the age of the universe for example. Get them and read them and leave the 6000 years old earth idea. There are many that think the earth is old and that is even before the idea of evolution started. The Lost World of Genesis ONE Walton Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament - Introducing the Conceptual World of the Hebrew Bible Walton The Lost World of Adam and Eve Walton The Lost World of the Flood: Mythology, Theology, and the Deluge Debate Walton The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of Earth David A. Young In Quest of the Historical Adam William Lane Craig Seven Days That Divide the World: The Beginning According to Genesis and Science John C. Lennox
Hurts to hear that. Ken made rounds to lots of churches in the 90s I remember. Then I went to college and was dismayed to learn the lack of science in many of his observations. He was willing to make arguments that only work outside of academia and that is a character issue. I lost all respect for him at that point. Winning by lying "disgusting" to God.
Honestly, I don’t comment much on UA-cam channels but you have been a tremendous blessing to my faith. I pray that God continues to allow you time, space, and opportunity to continue on this platform and I pray that the Spirit continues to give you wisdom and direction.
I grew up watching Ken Ham and believing every word of what he said. I used to think that being a YEC was the only way to go. I still believe YEC is the correct interpretation but your videos and my own searching have helped me to see there are other reasonable interpretations. In that way, your mission for this channel has been a success!
Hey Gavin, I am someone who really struggles with this issue, and historically have felt firm in both camps. I am currently undecided. I feel a real pull in both ways. I am grateful for your voice in the conversation. I have a baby boy coming this next month and I have no idea what I'm going to tell him about dinosaurs! "They lived... a long time ago." :D
I understand your concern as a Father but instill creationism and that we are not an accident and are special that puts things into focus rather than simply a dinosaurs age. God created us all because without that everything else is futile.
Yes dinosaurs did exist but now science is saying they may not have evolved into birds, may not be reptilian, etc. Also carbon dating is limited. How do scientists know what millions or billions of years look like? How can they possibly measure it? I do believe in a young earth.
@@IvanAlvarezCPACMA its not a trust issue. its an interpretation issue. Did God intend for Genesis creation account to be read as literal history. I would answer yes, but once you change the argument to say the opposition is trusting man and against God, you are misunderstanding the issue and making unnecessary accusations.
This is a fascinating conversation. I’ve always been more convinced by YEC personally, but I do like hearing other ideas about it. I hadn’t heard those things from Augustine before, but they’re very fascinating and make very good points. I think you’re right that this whole topic is a way more complicated subject that we often give it credit for.
I believe in YEC not only because of the Bible but because of science. Lots of scientific fact justifies a YEC. The one that is most convincing for me are Dimonds. Science states diamonds take millions of years to form. Science also says that C14 has a half-life of 5,700 years, which means Diamonds should have zero traces of C14. What do you know, diamonds have C14. The half-life of diamonds also correlates to the earth's age; what a coincidence! The Bible is the word of God, a history book, a book of genealogy, a book of prayers, a book of revelations, a book of poetry, a book of wisdom, and a moral guide. It is an encyclopedia.
As a Protestant myself, one of the biggest pet-peeves I have is that other Protestants are so unwilling to read anything that disagrees with the Reformers and are so quick to call something heresy while demonstrating that they are way over their head on specific subjects but act like they are experts. What I so appreciate about Gavin is that he analyzes both sides of the debate and speaks on topics after studying what both sides say about the matter. Unfortunately, there are so many so-called Theologians on YT who almost seem like they’ve never read a single theological book on any topic they disagree with.
“As a Protestant myself, one of the biggest pet-peeves I have is that other Protestants are so unwilling to read anything that disagrees with the Reformers and are so quick to call something heresy while demonstrating that they are way over their head on specific subjects but act like they are experts.” Mind if I use this quote? It’s golden.
Hey Gavin, just wanted to let you know that I have been working through some major health issues and along the way I’ve had some serious doubts about my faith, honestly, you and Sean McDowell have been the biggest influences on me, staying in the faith and developing a rational understanding of the Christian faith. Your videos on creation, and the trustworthiness of scripture have been so helpful to me, I also love your heart for people and your heart for unity. Keep up the great work. I am listening to evidence that demands a verdict right now and I am blown away by rigorous amount of evidence There is for the Christian faith, whether or not the evidence is valid, I’ll have to analyze it, and come to a conclusion. But I am very satisfied so far with reading through it.
God loves yo bro. He will be with you. Three book reccomendations for you: read On Guard and the Son Rises by William Lane Craig and The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright. Those were really helpful to me in my journey.
Im so grateful God led me to your channel, a lot of the time I've been feeling overwhelmed, exhausted and confused by all the unresolved questions I have. You have encouraged me to keep pursuing God through the questions. Thankyou for all you're doing!
I’m a YEC, but I love Gavin’s humility, something believers on BOTH sides should take note of. Would love if he and Ham could sit down and have a conversation.
You are correct at the end of your video when you say that it can lead to a crisis of faith. It did lead to a crisis for me when I began studying anthropology in college. For two years I struggled, at times felt agnostic, especially because spiritual leaders that I asked my questions to again reaffirmed my greatest fears. That because I found evolution convincing, I had to leave my faith (my only hope in this world). I kept on researching, and it was William Lane Craig's book that helped me the most. I am so happy to see you making this video, because it will help so many people like me. My faith is stronger than ever now!
You found evolution ‘convincing’? How is that when there is not one strand of evidence to confirm it? I am not a believer in a young Earth, I see in Scripture that God created the heavens and the earth and ‘then’ he started to form the Earth - which was ‘without form and void’ in a period of six days as a home for mankind. I certainly do not believe in evolution as most so-called scientist try to portray it, but I am sure there is plenty of scope for interbreeding and selection due to natural forces and conditions etc. Science does not have all the answers, in fact it has very few compared to the complexity of the world. Having said that, I am a firm supporter of true science, but not speculation and mere assertion as many ‘scientists’ practice.
I cannot tell you how much I loved this video. I tire of how many times Ken Ham gets to attack and destroy anyone who disagrees with him on the age of the earth. I do believe that there is room for disagreement on this issue. I am a pastor with the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference. I have been so blessed to be a part of a denominational fellowship that emphasizes unity on the essentials while lovingly disagreeing on non-essentials. I also have your book, "Finding the Right Hills To Die On." It should be required reading for every church. Please continue what you are doing. It is wonderful. I am now going to purchase your book, The Augustine Way. Blessings.
There is no room for disagreement on the issue because the Bible teaches a definite position. It's like saying there is room for disagreement about whether or not Jesus was the Messiah. Show me a pastor that says something like this, and i'll show you a pastor that is illiterate.
I really like when you provide book recommendations. Please continue to provide them in your videos! Thank you for this one. I grew up in conservative Christian circles who would triage this issue exactly as Ken Ham does. I agree with you but I don't think I could have articulated my gut feeling about it without your video.
I am so thankful for this video. I too was taught YEC in high school and almost broke up with my boyfriend (now husband) because of his different views on the age of the earth and Genesis.
First, I'd ask them what they really think about the age of the Earth? Let them know that science observes a very different story than the superimposed 6,000 year theory. Show them how Hebrew is a very word limited language (6,700) and much of it's meaning is contextual and not scientific. Show them that "Yom" the term translated as day has many more meanings and basically only refers to time. I was brought up secularly agnostic, no religion whatsoever. In school, we were taught that monkeys evolved into men. Thats what we had to say in school. But outside school, looking at nature, the way things work and what little we knew about ourselves, we said "No way that humans came from monkeys, there has to be a God, although we don't know him". Sometimes kids are smarter than you think. If your kids are not presented with a logical and consistent option, and they go on to embrace YEC, they will have a huge problem learning sciences, especially geology and history.
Gavin, I'm firmly in the YEC camp, but I'm grateful for your voice in YT. One of the reasons I subscribe to you is because you push into impartiality, and reject being put into a box. Thank you. Let's kill modernism, liberalism, and idolatry but not each other.
I don't have to big an issue with the exact age of the earth, although I do believe it to be far younger than is alleged by Materialist Cosmology which fraudulently tries to pass itself on as science. My concern is however that people started believing this Cosmology and then started 'picking' sides there. And those people do not realize that the Materialist Cosmology with those long ages does have serious problems to begin with. They work with assumptions they can't proof, which however look plausible to the ignorant. Well, it's still assumptions aka 'faith' they have to put in this. There is good reasons to dismiss the long age dating methods, which are virtually all extrapolations from present day observations into the past and accept that that what is dated is actually younger.
Is ok to call out a heresy. You don't need to praise Gavin in every single video he makes. Correction is a good thing, and even consider the idea that Genesis is metaphorical can lead to multiple heresies. If you love Gavin you should correct him. For his own good and for anyone who sees this video.
I get really uncomfortable arguing either side on this. Ken Ham absolutely drives me crazy with this though and I think it’s good that you are addressing it.
@@staal2691 Gentle, sure i agree, but also humble. He has come against many strong Christian academics who are defenders of the faith. One example being William Lane Craig, who defends all the basic Christian doctrines, Diety of Christ, Inspiration of the scriptures, Virgin Birth, and above all is the most elegant defender of the resurrection in our times.
@@benjaminwatt2436I could be biased but I don't think it's coming from a bad place. I have a similar attitude, I feel like non-YEC Christians are far more often compromising on Scripture because of the consensus of mainstream science. I think it's a possibility, but I really don't think most deny YEC for purely Scriptural reasons. That is to say, I think many of these people re-interpret Scripture based on what they think is "unquestionable scientific fact". That mentality is a big problem.
@@TONyjustRoCks Unfortunately, Christians that believe in YEC sound like rubes and atheists and secularists shut right down when they hear it. Evidence for dinosaurs and fossils is sound. A day is as a thousand years w/ the Lord. It doesn't have to undermine anything about our faith, or how much we love and trust the bible to understand the earth is not a mere 6000 years old.
Yeah, very timely brother!! God bless you. My brother is an atheist and when we would clash he would distory me and the last several months had been rough. You, inspiringPhilosophy and Jimmy akin really have been a guard rail against sever depression and anxiety. Thank you brother!!
The respect and love should be hallmarks of every Christian! Even if people attack a Christian, if they are of good character most people will not agree with the attack which can result in more people witnessing the truth of God's word. Historically anyhow, this seems to be the age of scoffers.
@@kriegjaeger I very much appreciate the grace Gavin shows toward his fellow Christian. I thik all of us could learn to speak kindly to one another and fulfil Christ words of "they will know you by the fruit"
Great summary Gavin. Really like you providing summary of different beliefs. You and the remnant radio guys are needed! 👍 Let's have grace for different views that are within biblical orthodox Christianity. God will bless your approach, so keep going.
As always, very peaceful approach to this issue. While I don’t agree with Gavin on creation, I do appreciate what he brings to the conversation as a brother!
Is not ok to be peaceful with straight up heresy. We christians really need to abandon the "Ned Flanders" approach to life, is embarrassing and does nothing good for the faith. When people start believing genesis is a metaphor it can indeed lead to a lot of other heresies. If you can't see this and you don't care there's a problem here.
@@JesusProtects I do think arguing for an older Earth opens up other cans of worms (like how we got from "Point A" to "Point B"), but I don't think Gavin is necessarily arguing for evolution. Augustine's view is interesting, and I might start leaning towards his view, because it would leave room for both interpretations of old or young earth. Ultimately the creation account itself is what really matters, and that we were created by God instead of through naturalistic processes. It's just a lot more complicated than "Creation vs. Evolution".
@@JesusProtectsit's not heresy. You can literally observe nominal evolution which is embedded in the genetic makeup each kind of creature. But that really doesn't matter to someone who is a strict literalist, something that betrays the parables that make up the Bible. Literalism is at best surface level, in reality it's metaphysically profane. Parables will go right over your head, as they did to so many in Christ's time.
@@joshsimpson10 But hang on, you're charging him with hyperliteralism when all he is doing is reading a part of the Bible that appears to be a history, a literal genre. After all, what's the allegorical interpretation of Genesis 5? Just because he reads Genesis literally doesn't make him some sort of idiot that thinks Jesus was telling people how to encourage bird life on mustard bushes or thinks the Psalms should be read with the same hermeneutic as Romans.
I'm so thankful for my upbringing in South Africa where I was taught from a young age that the Bible is not a science textbook, and that it doesn't teach us How God made the earth, but That he made the earth.
Gen 1 goes to great lengths to explain the "hows". I count over 19 action verbs in Genesis 1. Why would you say that the Bible doesn't teach us how God made the earth?
@@philosopher-2007 Genesis 1 is presented as history. Throughout the rest of the Bible, it is affirmed as history (eg, John 1:1-3, Heb 4, etc). References like these undermine what Indorm is saying.
@@timfoster5043 No, it doesn't. None of those verses try to literalize Genesis. Genesis can be true history in that it categorically and metaphorically tells HOW and WHY God created the universe. It doesn't need to be literal. You are assuming that all text should ALWAYS be taken literally unless another text LITERALLY tells you not to take the other text literally.
@@philosopher-2007 Well, let's test a couple of items: - Did God literally rest on the 7th day of creation? Yes. (Gen 2; Exod 20; Exod 31; Heb 4) ..but you think it's not literal because.. why? - Did God literally create the heavens in 6 days? Yes (Gen 1; Gen 2; Exod 20; Exod 31; Matt 19:4). ..but you think these references aren't trying to be literal because ..why? No passage anywhere in the Bible tries to take Gen 1-3 metaphorically. Take off your blinders, friend. > You are assuming that all text should ALWAYS be taken literally unless another text LITERALLY tells you not to take the other text literally. If you believe Gen 1:1 is literal history, then there is no compelling or logical reason to not take the rest of Gen 1-3 as literal history. [I'm not going to bother spelling it out for you, but I will say this: if you think Gen 1:1 is literal, but insist the rest of Gen 1-3 cannot be literal, then you're not thinking clearly or consistently. No offense. The reasons have everything to do with your presuppositions that you bring to the table.]
Gavin, I really appreciate this video. In the past, I was taught 24 hour days as an essential of the faith but I have recently concluded that I don’t know how long it took, and I’m OK with that uncertainty. By focusing on the days, we miss the important points. I like to read Genesis 1 with the 2nd commandment in mind. The pagans worshipped the sun, moon and stars, the creatures above the earth, on the earth and below (in the water). The 2d C tells us not to worship those things and Gen 1 tells us why - because God made them. Genesis 1 is a slap in the face of pagan religion, showing how God is supreme and that none of the pagan gods would even exist apart from God’s choice to create. It may be that Gen 1 is written in a way to group creation into these categories (things above the earth, on the earth and below). And days and times could have been different before the flood, with people living hundreds of years. The point is that there is some mystery here, and we err when we try to pin everything down and end up speculating in the process. I wonder what you think about that. On the other hand, I think it’s necessary to have Adam specially created or else Romans 5 doesn’t make sense. Please keep up the good work.
Is it mysterious about evening and morning and then day immediately following? Under a non-24 hour day Adam is standing on the bones of dead creatures and God is saying it is very good? No, something is broken in that logic.
i really appreciate this video. I felt that Ken incorrectly represented old earth believers in the arguments that he made, and it bugged me. So, thank you for being more balanced.
I fall in the YEC/anti-evolution camp bc of a mix of biblical, scientific, and philosophical reasons. However, the vitriolic, anti-Christlike nature of many popular YECs is really disturbing and makes me want to distance from the movement. Thank you for always approaching these topics with a genuine spirit of curiosity, grace, and humility.
You have to be aggressive when confronting evolution or they will walk all over you and laugh. You cant maintain silence in the face of these lies or nonbelievers will remain isolated in their echo chamber of confirmation bias,, but you are correct, there is a line you shouldn't cross in discussion and that is allowing your feelings/ego to get hurt. Find common ground with atheists, persuade them with demonstrable truths and if they refuse good reasoning, you have at least provided an opportunity for them to hear it. Keep fishing for men!
@@jacobostapowicz8188 I agree, absolutely. These are lies from the pit of hell, propounded by Phds whom God laughs at. The most used weapon in Satan´s arsenal is ridicule. Common ground with atheists?
@@carolbarlow8896 The "OLCs" are a coalition of satan sowing doubt in young or weak believers minds. Their primary MO is ridicule of "the non-intellect" of Christians, who have much more than "intellect", we have the mind of Christ.
Another excellent video, Gavin! I thank God for the work you are doing on this channel. Your levelheaded, charitable, and thoughtful approach is like a breath of fresh air in a world full of smog. May the Lord guide you and bless you with wisdom as you continue to work for His Kingdom! 😊
Thank you for this, Gavin. Growing up amongst a super vocal, conservative, literal 6/24-creation, purity-culture extended family, my sons, now in their 30s, were mocked and criticized by their cousins and "corrected" by their aunts and uncles for believing whst my husband and I taught them. We believed then and now that our God's creation is vast and ancient, and that the "book" of Creation serves to confirm the truths God meant to convey in the Book of Genesis and beyond. This is one of your best. I am impressed by your generosity of spirit as well as your depth of intellect. They CAN go together -- who knew??!!!
@@coloradodutch7480 "Book of Nature" was figuratively spoken. It's not a printed book. But it got something like text (information and data) nevertheless. Also an issue with the interpretation there.
We also taught our sons that the world was ancient and that Genesis was also literal! Literal Adam and Eve! It's been difficult to convey to our many YEC friends how the OEC works. I am doubtful that anything less that a several hour presentation/discussion will be adequate to cover the verse by verse examination that would be needed. And also throw in why neo Darwinian evolution is an impossibility from a Biblical and Scientific point of view. We are convinced, though, that the Truth will prevail eventually!
This is exactly the kind of content I've been searching for in regard to Ken Ham and the young earth creationist viewpoint! You are a Christian who lovingly sweats the details and pinpoints the nuances of Ken's views, and that is so refreshing. I think I generally agree with Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis, but little logical missteps and arguments they make often rub me the wrong way and I appreciate you dissecting some of those in this video.
I personally have always felt that the terms morning and evening refer to beginnings and endings of an unspecified period of time. There are multiple places in the Bible using similar terminology for different period lengths. However, it bothers me tremendously how certain people attach salvation to a specific belief in how God timed His creation. And doing this, of course, becomes extremely divisive among the church.
@The_Bored_Theist The Bible is not a scientific textbook. My point to the atheists is to ask them why they are attacking the Bible for being something it was never intended to be. I try to make them justify the ridiculousness of their attacks. At that point, most of them don't know how to respond.
Gavin- I am so glad I watched your video. I’ve read books about this topic and heard both sides, and I just have so much trouble with grasping a young earth in the face of so much evidence against… Very encouraging
Gavin - Thank you again and again for being the voice of reason clothed in the garment of humility. This is the best presentation on this topic that I've heard. Totally agree with you!
This is such an amaying video. Thank you so much for all you do Gavin!! I've listened and read hours and hours on this topic, and it's so refreshing and uplifting to be able to glorify God even more fully in his creation!
This is spot on, especially the point made at 23:24. I spent the first 34 years of my life immersed in and deeply committed to YEC for all the reasons referenced by Ken Ham. We were supporters and consumers of Answers in Genesis and Institute for Creation Research. When working on my undergrad at Liberty University, I wrote a paper, part of which referenced the physical impact of the fall. I confidently wrote about the world wide flood as evidenced by the Grand Canyon, Badlands etc, only to go after in search of citable sources. I had hints before that, but my search pulled up several peer reviewed articles, ALL debunking the idea in question. I never lost my faith, but it did suffer a crisis starting with the realization the earth might be older than 6,000 years. Your book Finding the Right Hills to Die On, which I was required to read for Village Institute prompted me to dig deeper in the topic. Your Augustine book, and Francis Collins book Language of God helped me reestablish what had been broken. In looking closer at the text, past the "science" I have found theological depth I never imagined before. There's a lot more I could say on this topic, suffice to say thank you for your unifying efforts. I'll be looking forward to the follow-up videos on this.
That's such a strange way to claim to lose faith on, first off peer review doesn't mean anything, to trust it like that is consensus fallacy (cause all it confirms is agreement among the consensus which are majorly Anti-Christ influenced to say the least, Satan is a conspiracy against God after all and he has even much of the churches in his hand) but even that aside why does the Grand Canyon, Badlands, ect. have to be evidence for a Global Flood? God's Word says it all, man's words are irrelevant, you should've actually read the Psalms and Proverbs before anything, why do you put any trust in the words and beliefs of man, there is nothing reliable in anything they say, they are liars, they are thieves, they are robbers, yet you trust the slaves of Satan to be right? Even among those who claim to be of Christ, they are still enslaved to Satan because they bow the knee not to God's Word but to man's. Its not different then pinching the incense to Caesar and saying "Caesar is Lord", it services the same god. If one does not build their theology on the rock but instead upon the sand, he will be shaken and eventually destroyed. The Scripture is clear about this warning, why does no one ever listen? Well I know why, but it is a wonder that everyone claims to walk away based on evidences that were devised by man deliberately to destroy God, for they are His enemy, why would you trust the enemies of truth who have no honesty on their side?
@@michaelbabbitt3837 "Worldly interpretation"- Now that's a weird description! Since when was the young earth teaching equated with the idea of being worldly????
@@wesleygordon1645You might find the history of YEC interesting. It’s only been extant in its current form since the early/mid 1900s. Before that, scientists felt little to no need to mash together their science and their Christian beliefs.
@@irenafarm > , scientists felt little to no need to mash together their science and their Christian beliefs. That wouldn't be the best way to phrase it since the age of modern science didn't rise to the fore of Western thought until ~18th century anyways. And the thought leaders in science assumed that science was the means by which we understand God and His creation. Phrasing it as "little to no need to mash together" makes is sound like science and theology originated in separate schools of thought. Nothing could be further from the truth, since the scientists of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were devoutly religious. (Most people don't know that Newton wrote more about theology than science)
Thank you so much for your approach on this issue. It's been a very important problem for my own life and it's amazing to see someone be very faithful in how they explain the topic.
I'd probably tap the brakes on that one. Recall that Jesus' #2 most repeated line was "Have you not read...?" Every Bible author that comments on it directly or indirectly treats Gen 1-11 as literal history, with 6 literal days for creation. They take it as plain history, If we're not taking it as such, we'd better have a good reason for departing from Moses and what is written. God is quite capable of saying that Creation took billions of years. That He never once bothered to do so should tell us something. If this is "yea, hath God said..?" territory, then we'll have to answer on Judgment Day.
@@timfoster5043Yom is translated as millions or billions of years. Specifically, as Epoc or undetermined amount of time. The Hebrew is understood contextually with only 6,700 words which are repeated with different meanings. The full range of Yom definition was not considered or known in 1604 when the scholars under King James made their translation. They used the single word "day".
@@SpaceCadet4Jesus You should consult a Hebrew scholar when you get a chance. You have many strange ideas in dire need correction. I studied under a Hebrew scholar for several years - a professor who was commissioned to do translation work on a portion of the Dead Sea Scrolls. But if you don't have a scholar you can consult, here's Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries H3117 יוֹם yowm (yome) n-m. 1. a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb) In other words 'day' in Hebrew means the same 'day' in English, German, French and even Swahili. It *usually* means a 24-hour day, but on occasion, can refer to an unspecified time period. Just like in English, when we say "back in the day...", and we don't mean a 24-hour span of time. This is nothing new to Hebrew - or any other language for that matter. But the problem is not 'yom' or 'day'. Old Earthers need to explain וַֽיְהִי־עֶרֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹקֶר ("evening and morning"). In the Bible, that phrase always refers to the passing of a 24-hr day. That's why so many old earthers skip it and focus on 'yom' ..as if we didn't already know what 'yom' means.
As someone who's suffered under abusive Christian fundamentalism, and have seen the damage it can do, I'm far less patient with people like Ken Ham. Not because we disagree, but because of how he frames his argument - it's not a matter of theological triage, as you put it, but an essential doctrine necessary for relationship w/God. People who disagree with Ham are not just wrong, they are heretics, unbelievers, and do not possess saving faith. He has put his own agenda above that of unity in Christ, sound hermeneutics, and the weight of historic Christian theology. I'm grateful for the graciousness and magnanimity in which you've presented your side of things.
I admit, I’ve become a lot less talent of the more rabid YEC like Ham as well. Theological argumentation is one thing; straight up denying established scientific fact to uphold a tertiary theological doctrine is a little less classy.
@@TitusCastiglione1503 Glad I'm not the only one. I have to check my anger sometimes. I'm being raised fundamentalist, and arguing isn't possible when your opponent practically says, "Nuh uh!"
This is possibly the best discussion yet. I've struggled with creation in the Bible, but I was never aware of these ideas from the early church. This is kind of game changing for me. Thanks so much for this!
He is not a true christian,doubting the bible ,be not decieved,hold on to the faith,Paul warns against false prophets.what makes him the authority of the bible think about it
@@tonyfrederickson6692 Apart from dedicating his life to ministry and having a doctoral degree in it, I don;t know how you can say he is not an expert. What are your credentials to claim he's not only not an authority but a deceiver?
@tonyfrederickson He isn’t claiming to “own” the Bible, nor to be the ultimate authority. Besides, what basis do you use to claim that he isn’t a “true Christian”? He affirms the deity of Christ, His death and resurrection and salvation only through faith in Him. Those are the basics of the gospel.
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
Thanks Gavin. Your voice on this subject (and other matters) needs to be heard. It saddens me that all too many "apologists" are more interested in winning arguments than seeing the lost understand the beauty of the Gospel.
I grew up Evangelical Protestant but was confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church 7 years ago. And I regularly connect with both a lot of Catholics and Protestants and am committed to Catholic/Protestant dialogue, partnership etc. And I greatly appreciate the spirit in which Gavin makes his points. It's very much in the spirit of humility and unity. He advocates for his position without making everybody who disagrees feel like you're either in or out. I love that. I know he deeply disagrees with the Roman Catholic position on a number of issues, but I feel like he'd be willing to have a good conversation about it if we sat next to each other on a plane or something :)
Roman Catholicism is not Christianity - in fact it is the opposite of that! It is a distortion of the truth. It encourages faith in the ‘church’ rather than Christ, it is a religion of works rather than of faith through God’s grace. It has multiple errors regarding the ‘priesthood’ and ‘saints’ etc. Biblically all true believers are saints, and priests, our great High Priest being the Lord Jesus Christ. The Papacy is built on totally false foundations and has an appalling history of violence and corruption. Roman Catholicism is a counterfeit faith to deceive people.
I would encourage you to get to know some faithful Catholics and become friends with them and then learn what they believe both from their lives and also form the things Catholics actually teach and believe. It may be that some day you realize that even though you disagree with them, you realize they're your spiritual brothers, or at least to respond in a way that comes across as you caring for them, rather than just making accusations. I used to think kind similar to you, and it took a lot of travail and learning to realize my attitude was misinformed and jurgmental. And by way I do think there is a place to confront falsehood. It's just that I think the way way you're seeking to go about it likely just makes people dig in their heels and get defensive.
@@thirdparsonage I know a very great deal about Catholics and Catholicism, as many of my family were catholic - sadly passed on now. I am not saying that catholics cannot be Christians, only God knows who His children are, but that ‘Catholicism’ in itself is not Christianity, it is a distortion and a perversion of the true biblical faith. Anyone with the slightest understand of the Apostolic faith and teaching found in Scripture would concur with me.
Excellent brother. Thank you for talking about this. This has so much to do with the fall of creation, the source of the fall. And the multiple beings that have place in creation.
I can tell you are very genuine and are doing this for the right reasons. Praying for you to be an instrument for The Lord to use and lead the lost and confused to the Truth of Jesus Christ.
I rejected young Earth creationism primarily due to reading the text. The more I studied, the less it seemed plausible that it was meant to be literalistic history, but rather was telling the story of our first ancestors in such a way as to generate the themes of redemption for the rest of the biblical story.
Really? I came to the exact opposite conclusion based on the text and the literary genre of Genesis. I also came to my conclusion based on the comments of Jesus, Paul, and Peter in the new testament giving support to Genesis being historical and not metaphorical allegory. And your reason as posted above doesn't logically support your conclusion. Perhaps there is more you just didn't mention concerning your reasoning. I am going to pray God does something to open your eyes to His truth He has given us in Genesis. I also request you begin to petition Him yourself for a proper understanding. It is very important for God's children to get this right.
as a YEC i fond it very shameful that many of my fellow Christians are so unchariatble. I have seen how YEC christians tend to be demeaning, angry, rude and confrontational. All of these attitudes are not Christian. I would love to see other YEC be willing to admit there is flexibility in interpretation and be more humble in responding to fellow Christians we disagree with
As a young earth creationist, I can give you an answer to why that is. I myself and every single person on my team for that matter, were raised by atheists and were atheists. We were the type that laughed and mocked Christians and only recently have we converted to become Christians ourselves and unfortunately we still bear that Ike flesh. It’s hard to just change who you are instantly. So yes, we have this aggressive attitude still sometimes and I find that we fight fire with fire. Over time we will change but you will notice it is the atheists we target, not believers of any denomination
We should always be charitable. But in Ken Ham's defense (and other YEC apologists like myself) we can be so angry because millions of youth have left the faith because of false science and corrupted biblical history....and its horrifying.
@@jeremystrand7095oh, yes. So true. Many people lost their faith because of bad theology, human made theories about the gospels and their reliability, etc. Therefore when I found Christ I read about 30 books before starting to study theology, to steelman my own faith as best I could against the liberal theology I might encounter. Worked pretty well 😊. And I always had good grades because of all that reading.
This is a much needed perspective Gavin. Thank you, as always, for bringing clarity, historical perspective, and a gracious tone to an important discussion.
Thanks for this video, Gavin. Many young people leave the faith when they leave the Young Earth echochamber and hear good arguments for an Old Earth outside their church, especially when it has been tied to being an issue of salvation - this grieves my heart. Glad to see you focus on Scripture and Church history.
I think you should give Ken Ham a good listen then as he explicitly argues this point in particular. The problem isn't that kids are taught YEC, it's that they aren't. They're told God made the world in 6 days (As Exodus 20 plainly states) and no further elaboration is given, no further teaching or guidence. Questions are palmed off as 'Trust in Jesus!" and not taken seriously. Ken Ham and his ministry labor to provide rigorous evidences for Young Earth but he ALWAYS points to the scripture as authority and presents the challenge that we either accept God's word, or Man's word. In general, it is a problem that young Christians are not taught apologetics. Sent into the battlefield that is the world without armor or a shield.
In general, the problem is that anyone at all is taught YEC because it's clearly a false teaching. If you teach your children YEC, they will leave the church when they discover the church is teaching them falsehoods. Simple as that.
@@The_Bored_Theist I would recommend understanding Genesis was given by the Holy Spirit to Moses. If you believe NE cosmology influenced Moses in his writings, you don't believe in divine inspiration of the Word of God. Bringing NE cosmology to the discussion is giving the devil and invitation to our table. You need to read and understand 2 Peter 1:20-21. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
@@kriegjaegerThere are literally people in the comment sections under this video saying that if young earth creationism is false then God does not exist. So if you were to show them that yec is false what would they do? Arguing that they haven't really been taught YEC is just disingenuous, I've personally attended churches who utilize AIG materials in their Sunday schools and youth groups. The fact of the matter is the scenario laid out in the video and by others here in this thread is by far more likely, and is borne out by observation again and again. I'm fine with anyone wanting to be a YEC, but when you elevate it to salvific levels of importance, it's not surprising that when it's shown to be false people will then abandon the faith.
Thank you so much for doing this! My daughter is part of a Christian youth group where many of them chastised her and told her she was going to hell for not believing in YEC. At the time, she was already struggling with her faith after losing her father, and this made things even harder. 2 years later, she is still affected by it. She knows and believes God created the earth & everything. I teach her to have civil disagreements with others on secondary issues. I wish all Christian parents would train their kids to do the same and not condemn other kids because they don't agree on secondary issues. Thanks again and I look forward to watching the rest of the segments. Praying for you & your ministry.
Your comment was sad to read. To make this issue a part of salvation is wrong. That would be adding to the Gospel message of Jesus Christ. My prayers go out for both you and your daughter.
Thank you for this. Mr. Hamm's position--and the way he argues it--has always troubled me. A little too triumphalist for my taste. Your defense of a *traditional* view of non-24 hour creation day, based on scripture and church history, is excellent.
as a YEC i've always found Ken Hams dogma far too narrow. i'm ok with "days" being more flexible and Genesis being at least somewhat poetic. it seems too obtuse to be so wooden on the issue
I lean towards young earth, but agree with you. I don’t like the triumphalist tone, as in “I’m right and everyone else is ab-solutely wrong”. It’s like, if you are not a YEC you destroyed Christianity all together, so don’t even bother be a Christian.
As per modern Creationism, Scripture is not Science. It’s Ancient literature teaching Theology. It’s a simple matter of genre. Ancient hearers would not have modern questions. Imposing our categories onto the text is a major problem w Creationists hermenuetics.
Surely we're not supposed to believe the ancients didn't understand Genesis 1-3? That's preposterous!! They would have understood it to be a historical retelling of exactly what took place. They would have summed it up like this: [+] For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Exod 20:11) [+] It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’” (Exod 31:17) Does any of that sound metaphorical? Does any of that suggest categories common to 21st century pleebs, but foreign to ancient minds? Respectfully - don't flatter yourself. Moses had no problem communicating exactly what he meant (just as he did for the next 100 chapters of the Pentateuch). He could have said differently about creation if he wanted to. After all, the ancient Egyptians (who trained him for 40 years) believed the earth was millions of years old. Those categories of thought were not at all foreign to him. Yet Moses went out of his way to repeatedly communicate a 6-day creation. You should too.
@@steveOCalley > What does traditional Jewish rabbinical study say? That's an interesting question. Is Moses undecipherable to you that you need to appeal to an authority to interpret him? If these rabbis were right about everything, I would pay close attention to them. But they got Jesus wrong, didn't they? And Jesus said they didn't believe Moses (Jn 5). Are you sure you want to get on their ship? Just a thought.
@@steveOCalley Earlier, I quoted Moses (in Exodus) to summarize his own writings in Genesis 1-2. I'm not sure why that's not enough to convince us what Moses meant. However - I suppose there is the oddball chance that Moses somehow meant something mystical and undecipherable in Gen 1-11, and yet something coherent for the rest of Genesis, Exodus, Lev and Deut. It could be helpful to pull in a different Jewish reader, from a century other than our own. To that end, here's Flavius Josephus, 1st century Jewish historian, writing 1400 years after Moses, telling us what he thinks of Moses' writings about Creation. "On the sixth day he created the four-footed beasts, and made them male and female: on the same day he also formed man. **Accordingly Moses says, That in just six days the world, and all that is therein, was made. And that the seventh day was a rest, and a release from the labor of such operations**; whence it is that we Celebrate a rest from our labors on that day, and call it the Sabbath, which word denotes rest in the Hebrew tongue." - Antiquities. Book 1, Ch 2 From where I sit, Joseph reads and comprehends Genesis 1 exactly like any unbiased 21st century reader would. Thanks.
Pushed out my church because of this. Very sad. I hope your work will have a great impact on the Church. It’s a fight people like I am fighting (as humbly as possible).
@@bowrudder899 Hugh Ross put faith in the Bible being God's word, because, in his words, it agreed with scientific theory. Namely, Big Bang. So in other words, Ross placed scientific theory above the Bible in regards to authority. Science is his measuring stick for how he is going to interpret the Word of God. This is backwards. Secondly, Ross arrives at a tortured understanding of the events of the 4th day by ignoring proper hermeneutics. We just can't say on days 1-3, and 5-6 what is mentioned as being created on those days is actually created on those days, then say, buuuuut, the things created on day 4 were actually created on day 1. Ross inserts his imagination into the events of day 4 in order to have it harmonize with Big Bang. Hebrew scholars will tell you the sun and other stars were created on day 1, but Ross insists "his" Hebrew scholars will allow for the sun being created on day 1 where there is no mention of it. I could say more, but I'll stop here. Sorry for the late reply, YT just informed me you responded.
@@SpaceCadet4Jesus Hugh Ross has a Ph.d in astronomy. He believes Big Bang comports with Genesis. This has the problem of explaining how the sun could be created before the Earth when the stars were created on Day 4, and Earth on Day 1. He solves this by violating good hermeneutic principles and mangling the Hebrew. To his credit, he doesn't believe in Darwinian evolution, which he says violates the scriptures. You can watch a good interplay between Hugh and Dr.Jason Lisle who has a Ph.d in astrophysics and is a young earth christian here on UA-cam. Just type Jason Lisle vs Hugh Ross into the search. I really appreciate Dr. Lisle and his reasoning and logic. There's also a debate on the John Ankerberg show here on YT from years ago with Ken Ham and Jason Lisle on one side for YEC and Dr Walter Kaiser, a Biblical Hebrew scholar and Dr Ross on the other side for OEC. It's worth viewing and seeing how Kaiser, though an OEC on Ross's side, destroys Ross's position on Day 4 during the debate without realizing what he did.
I love your appeal for us to be united despite our differences on this view. I am surrounded by YEC where I live, and as someone who isn't a YEC, I often find people act very condescendingly towards me as if I just don't view Scripture highly due to my views. We older earth people love the Bible too!
Personally I'm an OEC but I could see YEC as well. It seems like most of the outrage towards this comes from the YEC side, but unfortunately I have seen some OEC belittle YEC believers as well. Even when I was a YEC I never saw this as some sort of compromise issue.
I disagree, academia is entirely against YEC. Ken Ham is the most outspoken YEC, but the last person other than Kent Hovind I would ever look to for YEC views. He is not a good example of a rational YEC. He attacks everyone who doesn’t think what he thinks in a fallacious way…he doesn’t represent YEC he represents Ken Ham.
@@truthovertea Agreed, Answers in Genesis Ministry produces a lot but delivers it with scoffing, mockery and advertisement of their products. Creation Ministries International has a lovely magazine and regular youtube discussions that more focus on the glory of God's creation and evidence of his work in the world than scoffing or belittling darwinists. As for outrage it is understandable (though not condonable) given that Christian liberalists, Acadamia, atheists and probably a few others I'm forgetting are all arrayed against those who follow plain reading of scripture and the ages God gave us through the generational timeline for the age of the world. Sadly, Ken Ham replies to the vitriol with equal vitriol. I do agree with him on many things, just not his delivery and treatment of others.
Well, the truly glorious part of this debate is the "outrage", in and of itself. I had been hopeful that science would ultimately condemn the historical grammatical hermeneutic, and hence Sola Scriptura, and hence Protestantism altogether. For better or worse, though, it appears there are even Baptists such as Ortlund who accept Evolution. C'est la vie, Darwin failed to defeat Protestantism in one fell swoop, but at least he managed to further fragment it, so that folks like Ken Ham anathematize folks like Ortlund. In other words, Darwin managed to "infuse" condemnation into Protestantism, which will lead to the "process" of Protestantism's death, which will be further actualized each time the sacrament of in-house debate is partaken, and the walls of the edifice suffer the attrition of outrage
I’m sorry to disappoint, but despite the outrage, Christians are knit together by the mutual Spirit that lives in us, so the end result will be greater unity, not less. Also, not all old earthers believe in macro evolution.
Dr Ortlund Thank you for a very well-balanced video on the subject of the days of creation. As someone who is doing a lot of reading and research around the subject of creation and evolution, it was refreshing to approach it from a church history perspective. I will be intrigued to see your follow-up videos in that an old earth creationist view is generally rejected because of evolution's demand for long ages. I will be fascinated to see how you deal with macro-evolution and micro-evolution and how that fits with a biblical understanding of the gospel. I love your videos and have been blessed so much by them. Thank you, my brother.
Thanks for this video Gavin. I have been taught young earth creationism and even argued for it while attending public school but I'm glad to know that earlier church fathers had different views. I find the ongoing research by ICR very fascinating and the evidence for a whole earth flood seems to be almost obvious but I am interested to hear your well-educated conclusions as well.
This is excellent, Gavin! To be honest, I have really struggled with this. Particularly, as someone who has argued for a literal interpretation of Genesis 1, I could not understand how fellow brothers and sisters in Christ could not see it the same way. But I feel much more enlightened now from this video, and can now understand where those other views come from by other Christians. It is nice to see that even older Church fathers contemplated Genesis' meaning. What a neat debate! Thanks, Gavin! God bless you!
I went to a Christian college. It was one of the best decisions of my life. Yet, even in school this was not a hot button topic. Why have you struggled with the Gensis account? I like to hear the beliefs of other Christians. God Bless!
@@Disciple793Thank you for asking! When I say "struggle," I am referring to a struggle of discernment of truth between the new-earth creationism and old-earth creationism. Specifically, I wrestled over why God would say "day" and "night" and not mean a 24-hour period that He has defined throughout the Bible. I hope that clarifies what I mean. Gavin's presentation on this really opened my eyes and heart as to the other side of this interpretation. Super fascinating. God Bless!
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
Love this video Dr. Ortlund, so looking forward to the follow up! Thank you for your bravery in putting this out. I’ve learned from experience it can be so hard & painful to challenge peoples’ established church culture. It’s like saying to a group of Holiness Pentecostals or I.F. Baptists, “It’s Biblically not a sin to consume alcohol, in fact Jesus did….” then experiencing the explosive rage & rejection they can hurl at you. You’re a strong man Gavin, my prayers are with you!
Great video. I tend to agree with Ken Ham but I appreciate your point about historical Christian views on this issue and how it should not be considered a primary issue.
Love it. A very timely and much needed video for me. Book recommendations are great too. Would love to see them mentioned in video descriptions too. Ready for the next video.
Gavin ortlund is great 😃 Getting into so much of his stuff after being made aware of him by Megan Basham 😂 Will most likely purchase his book about this on Audible!
As someone who is not fully sold on the idea of old earth creationism and young earth creationism, I appreciate the way you deal with these issues. Even when I disagree, I don't find myself having to be defensive because it feels you are just a fellow Christian wanting to learn :)
Very sad to hear that someone would walk away from the LORD on this issue. We don't know HIS ways and there are many things in the Bible that can confuse people. However HIS love for us isn't one of them. Love your neighbor and don't argue things that would cause them to stumble. Thanks for the video
This was an excellent video. Thank you for this. I struggle back and forth on how literal the creation story in Genesis is. Either way, it's not an issue that should prevent fellowship between Christians
I’m so thankful for your videos on this topic. I have been accused of not believing in the inerrancy of the Bible because of my belief in an old earth so many times, when that couldn’t be further from the truth.
God is so far above our understanding and even science cannot answer all the questions we might have about creation. Humility is always needed and is available as a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
I recently left a church I was considering joining because the pastor claimed believers in evolution are rebelling against God. I realized I couldn't meaningfully serve there. It is hard, because I really liked that church.
If man evolved from animals, at what point did man gain a rational soul distinguishing him from animals? If animals are incapable of sin, at what point did the animal "man" gain culpability for said sins and a need to be redeemed? If man was descended from animals, who is "Adam" in Gensis? If "Adam" is only metaphorical, what is he metaphorical for? If Jesus is the "Last Adam" sent to redeem mankind from the sin brought upon us by the "First Adam", but the "First Adam" is only a metaphorical concept describing early man (or the animal that would eventually become them), what exactly is Christ redeeming us from? And if sin and death are natural parts of creation (as all evolution hinges on the concept of good traits being passed on through procreation, and bad traits being discarded and lost through death of the "less fit"), then what exactly is Christ redeeming us to, if there was never a perfect painless deathless state of being to begin with? "Believing in evolution is rebellion against God" sounds hyperbolic and harsh. But the thing being criticized is not just a general amorphous concept - it is a series of multiple, multiple, multiple building blocks making up a framework of how you see the world and by extension God's inclusion in it. It may not be direct intentional rebellion, but it fundamentally antithetical to the very essence of Salvation when it is broken down into its elements.
@@drawingdragon I can't reasonably be expected to answer every single question in a UA-cam comment. I can, however, point out that that is all they are. None of them positively demonstrate a contradiction between the Gospel and the scientific theory of evolution. And if that is true, then this is an area where believers can have reasonable theological conversations without charging their opponents with heresy.
On the one hand, I am glad I had the experience growing up in a creationist church because it helped me take scripture seriously, learn how to analyze people's presuppositions, and fall in love with the first dozen chapters of Genesis. On the other hand though, having to re-orient my brain around how to understand scripture (like acknowledging genre and the history of tradition), how to engage issues with charity and irenicism, and how to value all of scripture has been a serious struggle. I would say creationism was a major reason I have pursued theological training at an academic level, so I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with it. The process has been long, but videos like this have been such a help along the way. This video will be a helpful resource that I can give people if they have questions around this topic!
My experience has been the opposite. I became a believer as a child but accepted the worldly view of deep time and the evolution of ‘kinds’. Then in my adult years I came to see the necessity as a true believer of accepting the Bible as true from the first to the last word and God-breathed. I then came to see the unacceptability of accepting the Theory of Evolution which of necessity would have death and dying as part of God’s plan from the beginning, which contradicts God’s word. When I came to accept God’s word as inerrant and true my faith soared.
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
I believe that young earth creationism is the view that most conforms with a natural interpretation of Genesis chapter 1 without allegorizing the text even though it is the view that most conflicts with modern science. For instance some Christians who accept an old earth or theistic evolution believe that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are not historical which would depart from biblical orthodoxy.
James 1:4 If one accepts scripture is truly God's word, why do they feel the need to harmonize it with man's? It seems to me of all manuscripts and scripture, it is the most clear and simple explanation he's given us, and yet people labor so hard at trying to make it fit what man thinks.
I wonder though, when God created the heavens and the earth, it doesn't say how long that took. The first day only appears after the separation of day and night, light and darkness. The Bible never mentioned how much time went by before that first day. So we only have a starting point when this first day was counted. And later on, some people lived for hundreds of years. I think I'll have to do the actual math how many years it really was from Adam to Jesus. Shouldn't that be quite a lot? Would we arrive at the 5000 plus years of the Jewish calender? Okay, it certainly can't be millions since men was made but before the separation of light and darkness, we don't really know...
@@kriegjaeger pride is the urge to physically and mentally triumph over the Creator. It hasn´t worked yet, but science continues to hammer away at their new and improved tower of Babel II. (the con-struction of de-construction).
Great video as always. One fault I often find with "Christian Apologetics" is the mistaken belief that we have to have "all' the answers. The older I get, the more willing I am to simply acknowledge "I don't know"....and be OK with that statement. When I was younger, I consider this to be almost insulting, to acknowledge that I didn't know. Now, I recognize that not knowing is not an insult, it's a reality. To make matters worse, there seems to be this "gotcha' type of mentality among debaters on the subject that often hold Christians to, and theist in general, where ANY acknowledgment of "not knowing" or "not having" an answer for a challenge means by default that those in atheistic circles are correct in whatever belief that they hold or argue by default. Of course, the opposite is not applied, meaning that an atheist need not have "all the answers" and yet they are often given a pass often with the, mistaken, belief that eventually given enough time, they will. I think the "gotcha" type debating style so prevalent today, has had a polarizing effect on Christians, causing them to argue definitively on matters that reality, study and observation provides much greater flexibility. While it is important to hold to scripture as definitive, we must be willing to acknowledge that it is not scripture which is lacking, but our understanding of it that is often flawed. In the end, I care less over the amount of time it took GOD to create the universe, the Earth and all that is therein, than I do the fact and awesomeness that HE created it, me and everything else. I care less over which came first, the chicken or the egg, than I care over his love and compassion towards what he created that he was willing to express that love through an act of sacrifice to provide us a gift as great as eternal life. It is my observation of death that makes me recognize the splendor of life and the significance of eternal life. We do a great disservice to the witness of the gospel whenever we argue definitively on matters which scripture does not.
Quite true. I made the same "discovery" when studying theology. There comes a point in many debates about the Bible and Christianity when I simply had to say, we don't know but I believe it. Many of those clever theories in theology stand on shaky ground. The whole word "Theology" is at its core an impossibility. We can't have a "science about God", we can only bow down to him and try to follow his word in the end.
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
"Till we all come to the unity of the faith _and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ_ ;(Eph. 4:13)"...but _grow_ in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ(2 Pet. 3:18)"...It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, _but the glory of kings is to search out a matter_ (Pro. 25:2)." No true Christian could have such a lazy perspective on biblical education.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. As always, I’m grateful for your willingness to discuss these challenging topics in a spirit of charity and irenicism. Had I not discovered, through the help of my pastor and other resources, the fact that this issue has and never was a settled debate in the church historically, I may not be a Christian today. I had several people try to convince me that YEC was a hill to die on (and that any other opinion was merely sin and rebellion against God) when I was still a fairly new believer. As someone who wanted to be a paleontologist for many years as a child, that was too big a pill to swallow-not because of “sinful presuppositions” but because the evidence to me pointed clearly in the OEC/theistic evolution direction. But I’m all for brothers and sisters having differing convictions on this subject, and I’m more than happy to discuss this issue (and even be proven wrong!) on this matter. Thank you again for being a champion of charitable, Christ-centered dialogue! I’m truly grateful for your work and your ministry!
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
Hi Gavin, found you through Andrew Wilson’s Think Theology and God bless you for making these videos. I struggled with these issues and didn’t have a place to turn to as a new Christian. God has been faithful and every time I said I am being swallowed up by doubt and darkness and fear, He shone His light. Praying for you.
I used to be a diehard YEC. What changed my mind was realizing that I was reading Genesis through my 21st century lens. I began to struggle with statements that didn't align to reality, which greatly troubled me. That's when I figured out the problem was me, and not the Scriptures. Now, I read it as an ancient person would have understood it.
@crazycoolkids00 I'm really truly thankful that the Lord guided me to resources that could help answer my questions. Going through the process was difficult, but my faith only grew stronger in the end.
You've piqued my curiosity.... 1. How, exactly, would the Israelites of Moses' day have understood Gen 1-3? Since they didn't have our 21st century eyes, How would they have read it? 2. For whatever answer you give to number one, how do you know that's correct? Serious questions, submitted in all humility.
You've piqued my curiosity.... 1. How, exactly, would the Israelites of Moses' day have understood Gen 1-3? Since they didn't have our 21st century lens, How would they have read it? 2. For whatever answer you give to number one, how do you know that's correct? Serious questions, submitted in all humility.
@Tim.Foster123 Thank you for the questions. I want to preface by saying that I treat this topic as a secondary issue. Also, I understand how and why others draw different conclusions than me. An ancient Israelite would have understood Genesis with the knowledge that they had at that time. More importantly, they would have understood the theological messaging in Genesis. Their focus was theological, not scientific. Therefore, I read Genesis literally, but I am mainly looking for the theological messaging within it. To aid my interpretation of Genesis, I use many other passages in the Bible that describe elements from within Genesis. That helps understand how the Israelites understood Genesis. I hope that answers your questions. If there's a more specific question that I didn't answer, please let me know. God bless!
Great video as always Dr. Ortlund. One of the Ken Ham/YEC calling cards is that "Yom" is normally interpreted as 24 hour periods throughout the Bible. A treatment of this would be of great service.
IMO it is not so much that this is incorrect. The mistake is that the way the text is constructed and the culture it comes from show us that we are in the realm of poetry (which nevertheless tells us very true things about God, the world, and human purpose.) For instance, we could talk of parallels between days 1-3 > habitations or realms, and then days 4-6 > inhabitants or ruling functionaries of those realms. The Mesopotamian world was not scientific as we understand the term and did not understand the cosmos as a machine running by ordered laws. Rather, what the gods were like and what humans were made for was the primary concern. The Israelite Scriptures are casting a unique theological vision that communicated truth on these localized cultural and religious terms. There is also the matter of pacing. Why does creation take only 2 chapters but by the time we get to the patriarchs, the author slows down to tell us how Isaac was comforted after the death of his mother? The pacing of Genesis 1-11 is hyper compressed compared to 12-50. This is another indication that 1-11 is telling a primeval story in which theology and human telos is primary and a timeline is somewhat of an afterthought.
Thank you, Gavin, for your input on this topic. I'm surprised to read the comments. When it comes to the triage approach, I rank this issue so low on the scale that I'm hard-pressed to think of anything that means less to me! God created all that exists and all that exists is witness to it.
“The gospel is that I am so sinful that Jesus had to die for me, yet so loved and valued that Jesus was glad to die for me. This leads to deep humility and deep confidence at the same time. I can’t feel superior to anyone, and yet I have nothing to prove to anyone.”
- Tim Keller
Personally, I feel morally superior to the god of the Bible, because I have never commanded anyone to "kill every man, woman and child".
@@davepugh2519 Maybe those people were Nephilim? Read Genesis 6. That is why the 2nd flood occurred.
@@davepugh2519are you an atheist?
Please not Tim Keller.
@@davepugh2519 Since you are not qualified to make a judgment like that, your feeling has no significance. What should affect your feelings is the fact that as a sinner, God has provided His own dear Son as your personal Savior... which you dearly need!
God bless you, Gavin. I can’t even express to you how grateful I am for your videos. I am a newer Christian who is ravenously curious but also, admittedly, kind of gullible. I have gotten sucked into just about every single-issue sub sect of Christian internet culture over the last year and I have been in prayer about all of it. I believe God has heard my prayers and recognized my sincere confusion and has therefore led me to you. Your videos are so comforting and balanced. They always seem to ground me. You are also such a great example of how to disagree with grace. Thank you 🙏
I am so glad my videos have been useful to you! May the Lord continue to guide you and direct you.
The Scriptures with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will help you discern truth from lies. The lies are deep and many come from the church.
Thank you @@jannaswanson271 ! I read scripture every day and pray for discernment but there is still a prideful and sinful part of me that has biases that definitely come into play when I study the Bible. We all have different spiritual gifts according to scripture and we can use those gifts to support and edify one another. I love listening to Christians with teaching gifts because they can illuminate the scripture that I struggle to comprehend.
Not sure there are many better guides than Gavin. The internet is an internet distribution network. Obviously. That means it will distribute all information, but it has no discernment. It is disembodied, and does not respect the whole human person. It tears us limb from limb. People are reduced to their passions, to slivers of their opinions, to disconnected words. To learn patiently from a wise teacher, even at one remove, is, on the other hand, humanizing.
@@LemonLimeJuiceBarrell I do know what you mean but I have not found one YT preacher that agrees with Scripture 100%.
When it comes to the Scripture I simply believe God. If I don't understand I ask for Him to teach me and I wait. Once you understand the depth and breadth of the lies we are taught You will have a hard time standing. Believe God, believe scripture.
I am a YEC guy and have never even come close to being persuaded otherwise, but I completely agree with your points here Gavin. Thanks for the video. Keep up the good work, brother!
Same, really fun to learn Augustine's interpretation.
@@lucarich8711 it was based on Greek doctrines not Gods Augustine was a catholic
@tonyfrederickson6692 unironically being a strict literalist is the antithesis of what Christ preached.
Being a literalist is profane and always has been.
It's this simple minded reactionary condemnation from people who don't know what they don't know that really amazes me.
You argue from ignorance and use it as a pedestal. Smh
@@tonyfrederickson6692 What would he be in his day besides a catholic?
@@tonyfrederickson6692 Amen. Stand in truth, brother. The war on Genesis is a violent one.
I am a biochemist with a PhD. I am a scientist and a creationist who believes that God created the universe. However, I do believe that our creation debate has gone wrong and I do believe that Augustine’s view, as highlighted in Dr.Ortlund’s book, is a significant help in working through the the issue.
Is there a uni-verse? I believe it means something we have not yet understood. There is only the earth and the fulness thereof.
Augustine perspective is good in the sense that it brings awareness that the struggle with the text is not new, however, Gen 1 has to be interpreted in its ancient near East context. Look into that.
@@Solideogloria00- The struggle of 'Yeah, hath God really said?' began in fact a lot earlier than with Augustine.
Augustine was a fallible man who was not a font of pure doctrine. The Bible is sufficient to enlighten us about the flood. 2 Tim 3:16-17.
The only issue concerning the Flood is we have Christians who do not want to believe the Word of God.
@@scottb4579
Very well put bro!!
“WE” think God needs our help!!
Ken Ham literally made me lose my faith and I’m trying to rebuild it now with a new perspective
may the Lord be with you and bless you
Keep on building. The problem that is not appreciated much is the many interpretations of Genesis that have come down to us in time. If you get the bible commentary on Gen 1-15 by Wenham you will get an appreciation of many ways to look at Genesis. There are so many against science yet God said to look at nature to see the greatness of Him and this would include the study of physics. Luther appealed to Joshua [10:12] to prove the sun revolves around the sun. He called Copernicus a FOOL! Luther said God commanded the sun to be still and not the earth! It seems that many have not learned that our interpretations can be wrong. The bible was not written as a science book and yet many want it to be read literally like a science book. The bible was written according to the times of the people they were written to. This doesn't make the bible wrong but accommodating to their times. Here is a list of books I found really helpful to see Genesis in other ways. I'm sure I will get flack for this in the comments but they will help you and your faith and you will no longer be caught in a false dichotomy between literalism and interpretations that seem fixed in cement. You can hold the interpretations a little more lightly and maybe even see the deeper truths of Genesis that go much deeper than the age of the universe for example. Get them and read them and leave the 6000 years old earth idea. There are many that think the earth is old and that is even before the idea of evolution started.
The Lost World of Genesis ONE Walton Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament - Introducing the Conceptual World of the Hebrew Bible Walton
The Lost World of Adam and Eve Walton
The Lost World of the Flood: Mythology, Theology, and the Deluge Debate Walton
The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of Earth David A. Young
In Quest of the Historical Adam William Lane Craig Seven Days That Divide the World: The Beginning According to Genesis and Science John C. Lennox
Hurts to hear that. Ken made rounds to lots of churches in the 90s I remember. Then I went to college and was dismayed to learn the lack of science in many of his observations. He was willing to make arguments that only work outside of academia and that is a character issue. I lost all respect for him at that point. Winning by lying "disgusting" to God.
It can be rebuilt far stronger if it is based on what is true and real. Good luck.
What did he do to make you lose your faith?
Honestly, I don’t comment much on UA-cam channels but you have been a tremendous blessing to my faith. I pray that God continues to allow you time, space, and opportunity to continue on this platform and I pray that the Spirit continues to give you wisdom and direction.
So glad its been a blessing to you!
I grew up watching Ken Ham and believing every word of what he said. I used to think that being a YEC was the only way to go. I still believe YEC is the correct interpretation but your videos and my own searching have helped me to see there are other reasonable interpretations. In that way, your mission for this channel has been a success!
I feel the same. I also tend YEC but overly dogmatic voices like his make cringe.
Hey Gavin, I am someone who really struggles with this issue, and historically have felt firm in both camps. I am currently undecided. I feel a real pull in both ways. I am grateful for your voice in the conversation. I have a baby boy coming this next month and I have no idea what I'm going to tell him about dinosaurs! "They lived... a long time ago." :D
I understand your concern as a Father but instill creationism and that we are not an accident and are special that puts things into focus rather than simply a dinosaurs age. God created us all because without that everything else is futile.
Anything that does not align with the Word is a lie. The Big Bang, evolution, dinosaurs, the Ice Age, Climate Change- all lies.
Yes dinosaurs did exist but now science is saying they may not have evolved into birds, may not be reptilian, etc. Also carbon dating is limited. How do scientists know what millions or billions of years look like? How can they possibly measure it? I do believe in a young earth.
Read the text. Do you trust man or God in this?
@@IvanAlvarezCPACMA its not a trust issue. its an interpretation issue. Did God intend for Genesis creation account to be read as literal history. I would answer yes, but once you change the argument to say the opposition is trusting man and against God, you are misunderstanding the issue and making unnecessary accusations.
This is a fascinating conversation. I’ve always been more convinced by YEC personally, but I do like hearing other ideas about it. I hadn’t heard those things from Augustine before, but they’re very fascinating and make very good points. I think you’re right that this whole topic is a way more complicated subject that we often give it credit for.
I believe in YEC not only because of the Bible but because of science. Lots of scientific fact justifies a YEC. The one that is most convincing for me are Dimonds. Science states diamonds take millions of years to form. Science also says that C14 has a half-life of 5,700 years, which means Diamonds should have zero traces of C14. What do you know, diamonds have C14. The half-life of diamonds also correlates to the earth's age; what a coincidence!
The Bible is the word of God, a history book, a book of genealogy, a book of prayers, a book of revelations, a book of poetry, a book of wisdom, and a moral guide. It is an encyclopedia.
As a Protestant myself, one of the biggest pet-peeves I have is that other Protestants are so unwilling to read anything that disagrees with the Reformers and are so quick to call something heresy while demonstrating that they are way over their head on specific subjects but act like they are experts. What I so appreciate about Gavin is that he analyzes both sides of the debate and speaks on topics after studying what both sides say about the matter. Unfortunately, there are so many so-called Theologians on YT who almost seem like they’ve never read a single theological book on any topic they disagree with.
“As a Protestant myself, one of the biggest pet-peeves I have is that other Protestants are so unwilling to read anything that disagrees with the Reformers and are so quick to call something heresy while demonstrating that they are way over their head on specific subjects but act like they are experts.”
Mind if I use this quote? It’s golden.
@@TitusCastiglione1503Yes, definitely. Please use as you wish. Sorry, I didn’t see your comment earlier.
@@J.F.331 most excellent! Thank you
So you’re saying Protestants are pretty much like everyone else in the world …
Hey Gavin, just wanted to let you know that I have been working through some major health issues and along the way I’ve had some serious doubts about my faith, honestly, you and Sean McDowell have been the biggest influences on me, staying in the faith and developing a rational understanding of the Christian faith. Your videos on creation, and the trustworthiness of scripture have been so helpful to me, I also love your heart for people and your heart for unity. Keep up the great work.
I am listening to evidence that demands a verdict right now and I am blown away by rigorous amount of evidence There is for the Christian faith, whether or not the evidence is valid, I’ll have to analyze it, and come to a conclusion. But I am very satisfied so far with reading through it.
May the Lord continue to guide and direct you, and also bring you to complete healing!
@@TruthUnitesthanks Gavin!
@@deion312I've been taught - when you take one step towards God, he takes two towards you.
God loves yo bro. He will be with you. Three book reccomendations for you: read On Guard and the Son Rises by William Lane Craig and The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright. Those were really helpful to me in my journey.
@@marlonfrometabarreto888 thankyou
Im so grateful God led me to your channel, a lot of the time I've been feeling overwhelmed, exhausted and confused by all the unresolved questions I have. You have encouraged me to keep pursuing God through the questions. Thankyou for all you're doing!
I’m a YEC, but I love Gavin’s humility, something believers on BOTH sides should take note of. Would love if he and Ham could sit down and have a conversation.
you not a christain,yall wear that YEC like a badge of honor,they worship creation rather than creator
@@tonyfrederickson6692tony, God hasn't assigned you to judge. Read the epistle to Corinthians. Be like Paul who entrusted judgements upon God.
You are correct at the end of your video when you say that it can lead to a crisis of faith. It did lead to a crisis for me when I began studying anthropology in college. For two years I struggled, at times felt agnostic, especially because spiritual leaders that I asked my questions to again reaffirmed my greatest fears. That because I found evolution convincing, I had to leave my faith (my only hope in this world). I kept on researching, and it was William Lane Craig's book that helped me the most. I am so happy to see you making this video, because it will help so many people like me. My faith is stronger than ever now!
You found evolution ‘convincing’? How is that when there is not one strand of evidence to confirm it? I am not a believer in a young Earth, I see in Scripture that God created the heavens and the earth and ‘then’ he started to form the Earth - which was ‘without form and void’ in a period of six days as a home for mankind. I certainly do not believe in evolution as most so-called scientist try to portray it, but I am sure there is plenty of scope for interbreeding and selection due to natural forces and conditions etc. Science does not have all the answers, in fact it has very few compared to the complexity of the world. Having said that, I am a firm supporter of true science, but not speculation and mere assertion as many ‘scientists’ practice.
I cannot tell you how much I loved this video. I tire of how many times Ken Ham gets to attack and destroy anyone who disagrees with him on the age of the earth. I do believe that there is room for disagreement on this issue. I am a pastor with the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference. I have been so blessed to be a part of a denominational fellowship that emphasizes unity on the essentials while lovingly disagreeing on non-essentials. I also have your book, "Finding the Right Hills To Die On." It should be required reading for every church. Please continue what you are doing. It is wonderful. I am now going to purchase your book, The Augustine Way. Blessings.
one world gov. you mean
There is no room for disagreement on the issue because the Bible teaches a definite position. It's like saying there is room for disagreement about whether or not Jesus was the Messiah. Show me a pastor that says something like this, and i'll show you a pastor that is illiterate.
I really like when you provide book recommendations. Please continue to provide them in your videos! Thank you for this one. I grew up in conservative Christian circles who would triage this issue exactly as Ken Ham does. I agree with you but I don't think I could have articulated my gut feeling about it without your video.
"I really like IT when you provide ...."
You have to have an "IT" after "like", otherwise it's not English.
I am so thankful for this video. I too was taught YEC in high school and almost broke up with my boyfriend (now husband) because of his different views on the age of the earth and Genesis.
My question now, is how do I help my children understand these issues in opposition to what they are being taught in their Christian school?
First, I'd ask them what they really think about the age of the Earth? Let them know that science observes a very different story than the superimposed 6,000 year theory. Show them how Hebrew is a very word limited language (6,700) and much of it's meaning is contextual and not scientific.
Show them that "Yom" the term translated as day has many more meanings and basically only refers to time.
I was brought up secularly agnostic, no religion whatsoever. In school, we were taught that monkeys evolved into men. Thats what we had to say in school. But outside school, looking at nature, the way things work and what little we knew about ourselves, we said "No way that humans came from monkeys, there has to be a God, although we don't know him". Sometimes kids are smarter than you think.
If your kids are not presented with a logical and consistent option, and they go on to embrace YEC, they will have a huge problem learning sciences, especially geology and history.
Gavin, I'm firmly in the YEC camp, but I'm grateful for your voice in YT.
One of the reasons I subscribe to you is because you push into impartiality, and reject being put into a box.
Thank you. Let's kill modernism, liberalism, and idolatry but not each other.
One might say that we should be partial to what the Bible clearly says.
@@SevenStarBibleQuest including being personally partial to biblical impartiality
@@georgeluke6382 You'll have to decode that for me. What is "biblical impartiality"?
I don't have to big an issue with the exact age of the earth, although I do believe it to be far younger than is alleged by Materialist Cosmology which fraudulently tries to pass itself on as science. My concern is however that people started believing this Cosmology and then started 'picking' sides there. And those people do not realize that the Materialist Cosmology with those long ages does have serious problems to begin with. They work with assumptions they can't proof, which however look plausible to the ignorant. Well, it's still assumptions aka 'faith' they have to put in this. There is good reasons to dismiss the long age dating methods, which are virtually all extrapolations from present day observations into the past and accept that that what is dated is actually younger.
Is ok to call out a heresy. You don't need to praise Gavin in every single video he makes. Correction is a good thing, and even consider the idea that Genesis is metaphorical can lead to multiple heresies. If you love Gavin you should correct him. For his own good and for anyone who sees this video.
I get really uncomfortable arguing either side on this. Ken Ham absolutely drives me crazy with this though and I think it’s good that you are addressing it.
me too, i'm YEC and I feel Ken Ham really needs to be humbled, because he can be vicious
@@benjaminwatt2436Ham is passionate. Maybe he should be more gentle in his approach.
@@staal2691 Gentle, sure i agree, but also humble. He has come against many strong Christian academics who are defenders of the faith. One example being William Lane Craig, who defends all the basic Christian doctrines, Diety of Christ, Inspiration of the scriptures, Virgin Birth, and above all is the most elegant defender of the resurrection in our times.
@@benjaminwatt2436I could be biased but I don't think it's coming from a bad place. I have a similar attitude, I feel like non-YEC Christians are far more often compromising on Scripture because of the consensus of mainstream science. I think it's a possibility, but I really don't think most deny YEC for purely Scriptural reasons. That is to say, I think many of these people re-interpret Scripture based on what they think is "unquestionable scientific fact". That mentality is a big problem.
@@TONyjustRoCks Unfortunately, Christians that believe in YEC sound like rubes and atheists and secularists shut right down when they hear it. Evidence for dinosaurs and fossils is sound. A day is as a thousand years w/ the Lord. It doesn't have to undermine anything about our faith, or how much we love and trust the bible to understand the earth is not a mere 6000 years old.
Excellent video! As a conservative evangelical pastor, I heartily appreciate both the truth and tone of Gavin's perspective on this.
Yeah, very timely brother!! God bless you. My brother is an atheist and when we would clash he would distory me and the last several months had been rough. You, inspiringPhilosophy and Jimmy akin really have been a guard rail against sever depression and anxiety. Thank you brother!!
The trifecta! 😎👉🏻👉🏻
LOVE this. Very well put together, Gavin. Also, very respectful, as always.
The respect and love should be hallmarks of every Christian!
Even if people attack a Christian, if they are of good character most people will not agree with the attack which can result in more people witnessing the truth of God's word. Historically anyhow, this seems to be the age of scoffers.
@@kriegjaeger I very much appreciate the grace Gavin shows toward his fellow Christian. I thik all of us could learn to speak kindly to one another and fulfil Christ words of "they will know you by the fruit"
Great summary Gavin. Really like you providing summary of different beliefs. You and the remnant radio guys are needed! 👍 Let's have grace for different views that are within biblical orthodox Christianity. God will bless your approach, so keep going.
As always, very peaceful approach to this issue. While I don’t agree with Gavin on creation, I do appreciate what he brings to the conversation as a brother!
Is not ok to be peaceful with straight up heresy. We christians really need to abandon the "Ned Flanders" approach to life, is embarrassing and does nothing good for the faith.
When people start believing genesis is a metaphor it can indeed lead to a lot of other heresies. If you can't see this and you don't care there's a problem here.
@@JesusProtects I do think arguing for an older Earth opens up other cans of worms (like how we got from "Point A" to "Point B"), but I don't think Gavin is necessarily arguing for evolution. Augustine's view is interesting, and I might start leaning towards his view, because it would leave room for both interpretations of old or young earth. Ultimately the creation account itself is what really matters, and that we were created by God instead of through naturalistic processes. It's just a lot more complicated than "Creation vs. Evolution".
Hello, mate. Do you believe in the order of creation though because the evolution theory has that upside down too?
@@JesusProtectsit's not heresy. You can literally observe nominal evolution which is embedded in the genetic makeup each kind of creature.
But that really doesn't matter to someone who is a strict literalist, something that betrays the parables that make up the Bible.
Literalism is at best surface level, in reality it's metaphysically profane. Parables will go right over your head, as they did to so many in Christ's time.
@@joshsimpson10 But hang on, you're charging him with hyperliteralism when all he is doing is reading a part of the Bible that appears to be a history, a literal genre. After all, what's the allegorical interpretation of Genesis 5?
Just because he reads Genesis literally doesn't make him some sort of idiot that thinks Jesus was telling people how to encourage bird life on mustard bushes or thinks the Psalms should be read with the same hermeneutic as Romans.
I'm so thankful for my upbringing in South Africa where I was taught from a young age that the Bible is not a science textbook, and that it doesn't teach us How God made the earth, but That he made the earth.
Gen 1 goes to great lengths to explain the "hows". I count over 19 action verbs in Genesis 1.
Why would you say that the Bible doesn't teach us how God made the earth?
@@timfoster5043 not specifically how, generally how.
@@philosopher-2007 Genesis 1 is presented as history. Throughout the rest of the Bible, it is affirmed as history (eg, John 1:1-3, Heb 4, etc). References like these undermine what Indorm is saying.
@@timfoster5043 No, it doesn't. None of those verses try to literalize Genesis. Genesis can be true history in that it categorically and metaphorically tells HOW and WHY God created the universe. It doesn't need to be literal. You are assuming that all text should ALWAYS be taken literally unless another text LITERALLY tells you not to take the other text literally.
@@philosopher-2007 Well, let's test a couple of items:
- Did God literally rest on the 7th day of creation? Yes. (Gen 2; Exod 20; Exod 31; Heb 4) ..but you think it's not literal because.. why?
- Did God literally create the heavens in 6 days? Yes (Gen 1; Gen 2; Exod 20; Exod 31; Matt 19:4). ..but you think these references aren't trying to be literal because ..why?
No passage anywhere in the Bible tries to take Gen 1-3 metaphorically.
Take off your blinders, friend.
> You are assuming that all text should ALWAYS be taken literally unless another text LITERALLY tells you not to take the other text literally.
If you believe Gen 1:1 is literal history, then there is no compelling or logical reason to not take the rest of Gen 1-3 as literal history.
[I'm not going to bother spelling it out for you, but I will say this: if you think Gen 1:1 is literal, but insist the rest of Gen 1-3 cannot be literal, then you're not thinking clearly or consistently. No offense. The reasons have everything to do with your presuppositions that you bring to the table.]
Gavin, I really appreciate this video. In the past, I was taught 24 hour days as an essential of the faith but I have recently concluded that I don’t know how long it took, and I’m OK with that uncertainty. By focusing on the days, we miss the important points. I like to read Genesis 1 with the 2nd commandment in mind. The pagans worshipped the sun, moon and stars, the creatures above the earth, on the earth and below (in the water). The 2d C tells us not to worship those things and Gen 1 tells us why - because God made them. Genesis 1 is a slap in the face of pagan religion, showing how God is supreme and that none of the pagan gods would even exist apart from God’s choice to create. It may be that Gen 1 is written in a way to group creation into these categories (things above the earth, on the earth and below). And days and times could have been different before the flood, with people living hundreds of years. The point is that there is some mystery here, and we err when we try to pin everything down and end up speculating in the process. I wonder what you think about that. On the other hand, I think it’s necessary to have Adam specially created or else Romans 5 doesn’t make sense. Please keep up the good work.
I agree with everything you said William Lane Craig has a book on the historical Adam that I really want to get and thought I would mention to you.
Is it mysterious about evening and morning and then day immediately following? Under a non-24 hour day Adam is standing on the bones of dead creatures and God is saying it is very good? No, something is broken in that logic.
Why are you allowing the serpent to get you to question God's word?
i really appreciate this video. I felt that Ken incorrectly represented old earth believers in the arguments that he made, and it bugged me. So, thank you for being more balanced.
I fall in the YEC/anti-evolution camp bc of a mix of biblical, scientific, and philosophical reasons. However, the vitriolic, anti-Christlike nature of many popular YECs is really disturbing and makes me want to distance from the movement. Thank you for always approaching these topics with a genuine spirit of curiosity, grace, and humility.
Messiah came to bring a sword, satan is disguised as an angel of light.
You have to be aggressive when confronting evolution or they will walk all over you and laugh. You cant maintain silence in the face of these lies or nonbelievers will remain isolated in their echo chamber of confirmation bias,,
but you are correct, there is a line you shouldn't cross in discussion and that is allowing your feelings/ego to get hurt.
Find common ground with atheists, persuade them with demonstrable truths and if they refuse good reasoning, you have at least provided an opportunity for them to hear it.
Keep fishing for men!
@@jacobostapowicz8188 I agree, absolutely. These are lies from the pit of hell, propounded by Phds whom God laughs at. The most used weapon in Satan´s arsenal is ridicule.
Common ground with atheists?
I get it but OLCs can be pretty darn arrogant and snarky themselves.
@@carolbarlow8896 The "OLCs" are a coalition of satan sowing doubt in young or weak believers minds. Their primary MO is ridicule of "the non-intellect" of Christians, who have much more than "intellect", we have the mind of Christ.
Another excellent video, Gavin! I thank God for the work you are doing on this channel. Your levelheaded, charitable, and thoughtful approach is like a breath of fresh air in a world full of smog. May the Lord guide you and bless you with wisdom as you continue to work for His Kingdom! 😊
Thank you for this, Gavin. Growing up amongst a super vocal, conservative, literal 6/24-creation, purity-culture extended family, my sons, now in their 30s, were mocked and criticized by their cousins and "corrected" by their aunts and uncles for believing whst my husband and I taught them. We believed then and now that our God's creation is vast and ancient, and that the "book" of Creation serves to confirm the truths God meant to convey in the Book of Genesis and beyond. This is one of your best. I am impressed by your generosity of spirit as well as your depth of intellect. They CAN go together -- who knew??!!!
It's actually pretty obviously literal days. And I don't see why that should be a problem anyway.
To call it a book of creation is a misnomer and a fallacy, creation is not a book.
@@coloradodutch7480 "Book of Nature" was figuratively spoken. It's not a printed book. But it got something like text (information and data) nevertheless. Also an issue with the interpretation there.
Mother Mary will bless you
We also taught our sons that the world was ancient and that Genesis was also literal! Literal Adam and Eve! It's been difficult to convey to our many YEC friends how the OEC works. I am doubtful that anything less that a several hour presentation/discussion will be adequate to cover the verse by verse examination that would be needed. And also throw in why neo Darwinian evolution is an impossibility from a Biblical and Scientific point of view. We are convinced, though, that the Truth will prevail eventually!
This is exactly the kind of content I've been searching for in regard to Ken Ham and the young earth creationist viewpoint! You are a Christian who lovingly sweats the details and pinpoints the nuances of Ken's views, and that is so refreshing. I think I generally agree with Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis, but little logical missteps and arguments they make often rub me the wrong way and I appreciate you dissecting some of those in this video.
I personally have always felt that the terms morning and evening refer to beginnings and endings of an unspecified period of time. There are multiple places in the Bible using similar terminology for different period lengths. However, it bothers me tremendously how certain people attach salvation to a specific belief in how God timed His creation. And doing this, of course, becomes extremely divisive among the church.
@The_Bored_Theist The Bible is not a scientific textbook. My point to the atheists is to ask them why they are attacking the Bible for being something it was never intended to be. I try to make them justify the ridiculousness of their attacks. At that point, most of them don't know how to respond.
Gavin- I am so glad I watched your video. I’ve read books about this topic and heard both sides, and I just have so much trouble with grasping a young earth in the face of so much evidence against… Very encouraging
I will pray for you to remain faithful to your understanding of the Bible. Thank you for this.
Gavin - Thank you again and again for being the voice of reason clothed in the garment of humility. This is the best presentation on this topic that I've heard. Totally agree with you!
This is such an amaying video. Thank you so much for all you do Gavin!! I've listened and read hours and hours on this topic, and it's so refreshing and uplifting to be able to glorify God even more fully in his creation!
I LOVE all the Book suggestions you’ve been giving! Thank you for your work!
This is spot on, especially the point made at 23:24. I spent the first 34 years of my life immersed in and deeply committed to YEC for all the reasons referenced by Ken Ham. We were supporters and consumers of Answers in Genesis and Institute for Creation Research.
When working on my undergrad at Liberty University, I wrote a paper, part of which referenced the physical impact of the fall. I confidently wrote about the world wide flood as evidenced by the Grand Canyon, Badlands etc, only to go after in search of citable sources. I had hints before that, but my search pulled up several peer reviewed articles, ALL debunking the idea in question. I never lost my faith, but it did suffer a crisis starting with the realization the earth might be older than 6,000 years.
Your book Finding the Right Hills to Die On, which I was required to read for Village Institute prompted me to dig deeper in the topic. Your Augustine book, and Francis Collins book Language of God helped me reestablish what had been broken. In looking closer at the text, past the "science" I have found theological depth I never imagined before.
There's a lot more I could say on this topic, suffice to say thank you for your unifying efforts. I'll be looking forward to the follow-up videos on this.
That's such a strange way to claim to lose faith on, first off peer review doesn't mean anything, to trust it like that is consensus fallacy (cause all it confirms is agreement among the consensus which are majorly Anti-Christ influenced to say the least, Satan is a conspiracy against God after all and he has even much of the churches in his hand) but even that aside why does the Grand Canyon, Badlands, ect. have to be evidence for a Global Flood? God's Word says it all, man's words are irrelevant, you should've actually read the Psalms and Proverbs before anything, why do you put any trust in the words and beliefs of man, there is nothing reliable in anything they say, they are liars, they are thieves, they are robbers, yet you trust the slaves of Satan to be right? Even among those who claim to be of Christ, they are still enslaved to Satan because they bow the knee not to God's Word but to man's. Its not different then pinching the incense to Caesar and saying "Caesar is Lord", it services the same god. If one does not build their theology on the rock but instead upon the sand, he will be shaken and eventually destroyed. The Scripture is clear about this warning, why does no one ever listen? Well I know why, but it is a wonder that everyone claims to walk away based on evidences that were devised by man deliberately to destroy God, for they are His enemy, why would you trust the enemies of truth who have no honesty on their side?
Yes, the YECs make their level of worldly interpretation of Genesis The interpretation.
@@michaelbabbitt3837 "Worldly interpretation"- Now that's a weird description! Since when was the young earth teaching equated with the idea of being worldly????
@@wesleygordon1645You might find the history of YEC interesting. It’s only been extant in its current form since the early/mid 1900s. Before that, scientists felt little to no need to mash together their science and their Christian beliefs.
@@irenafarm > , scientists felt little to no need to mash together their science and their Christian beliefs.
That wouldn't be the best way to phrase it since the age of modern science didn't rise to the fore of Western thought until ~18th century anyways. And the thought leaders in science assumed that science was the means by which we understand God and His creation.
Phrasing it as "little to no need to mash together" makes is sound like science and theology originated in separate schools of thought. Nothing could be further from the truth, since the scientists of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were devoutly religious. (Most people don't know that Newton wrote more about theology than science)
Thank you so much for your approach on this issue. It's been a very important problem for my own life and it's amazing to see someone be very faithful in how they explain the topic.
When I stand before my Lord that question will be the farthest thing in my mind
I'd probably tap the brakes on that one. Recall that Jesus' #2 most repeated line was "Have you not read...?"
Every Bible author that comments on it directly or indirectly treats Gen 1-11 as literal history, with 6 literal days for creation. They take it as plain history,
If we're not taking it as such, we'd better have a good reason for departing from Moses and what is written.
God is quite capable of saying that Creation took billions of years. That He never once bothered to do so should tell us something.
If this is "yea, hath God said..?" territory, then we'll have to answer on Judgment Day.
@@timfoster5043Yom is translated as millions or billions of years. Specifically, as Epoc or undetermined amount of time. The Hebrew is understood contextually with only 6,700 words which are repeated with different meanings. The full range of Yom definition was not considered or known in 1604 when the scholars under King James made their translation. They used the single word "day".
@@SpaceCadet4Jesus You should consult a Hebrew scholar when you get a chance. You have many strange ideas in dire need correction. I studied under a Hebrew scholar for several years - a professor who was commissioned to do translation work on a portion of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
But if you don't have a scholar you can consult, here's Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries
H3117 יוֹם yowm (yome) n-m.
1. a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb)
In other words 'day' in Hebrew means the same 'day' in English, German, French and even Swahili. It *usually* means a 24-hour day, but on occasion, can refer to an unspecified time period. Just like in English, when we say "back in the day...", and we don't mean a 24-hour span of time. This is nothing new to Hebrew - or any other language for that matter.
But the problem is not 'yom' or 'day'.
Old Earthers need to explain וַֽיְהִי־עֶרֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹקֶר ("evening and morning"). In the Bible, that phrase always refers to the passing of a 24-hr day. That's why so many old earthers skip it and focus on 'yom' ..as if we didn't already know what 'yom' means.
Thank you so much for this video. This is a topic that has weighed heavily on me of late, and you laid this out better than I ever could.
As someone who's suffered under abusive Christian fundamentalism, and have seen the damage it can do, I'm far less patient with people like Ken Ham. Not because we disagree, but because of how he frames his argument - it's not a matter of theological triage, as you put it, but an essential doctrine necessary for relationship w/God. People who disagree with Ham are not just wrong, they are heretics, unbelievers, and do not possess saving faith. He has put his own agenda above that of unity in Christ, sound hermeneutics, and the weight of historic Christian theology. I'm grateful for the graciousness and magnanimity in which you've presented your side of things.
I admit, I’ve become a lot less talent of the more rabid YEC like Ham as well. Theological argumentation is one thing; straight up denying established scientific fact to uphold a tertiary theological doctrine is a little less classy.
@@TitusCastiglione1503 Glad I'm not the only one. I have to check my anger sometimes.
I'm being raised fundamentalist, and arguing isn't possible when your opponent practically says, "Nuh uh!"
@@thatoneskinnykid when fundies come to mind, I’m reminded of a quote from Father Brown: “You attacked reason; it’s bad theology.”
This is possibly the best discussion yet. I've struggled with creation in the Bible, but I was never aware of these ideas from the early church. This is kind of game changing for me. Thanks so much for this!
He is not a true christian,doubting the bible ,be not decieved,hold on to the faith,Paul warns against false prophets.what makes him the authority of the bible think about it
@@tonyfrederickson6692 Apart from dedicating his life to ministry and having a doctoral degree in it, I don;t know how you can say he is not an expert. What are your credentials to claim he's not only not an authority but a deceiver?
@tonyfrederickson He isn’t claiming to “own” the Bible, nor to be the ultimate authority. Besides, what basis do you use to claim that he isn’t a “true Christian”? He affirms the deity of Christ, His death and resurrection and salvation only through faith in Him. Those are the basics of the gospel.
@@tonyfrederickson6692 This is an unnecessary statement.
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
Thanks Gavin. Your voice on this subject (and other matters) needs to be heard. It saddens me that all too many "apologists" are more interested in winning arguments than seeing the lost understand the beauty of the Gospel.
Great stuff. Really appreciate this gracious and well thought out response
I grew up Evangelical Protestant but was confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church 7 years ago. And I regularly connect with both a lot of Catholics and Protestants and am committed to Catholic/Protestant dialogue, partnership etc. And I greatly appreciate the spirit in which Gavin makes his points. It's very much in the spirit of humility and unity. He advocates for his position without making everybody who disagrees feel like you're either in or out. I love that. I know he deeply disagrees with the Roman Catholic position on a number of issues, but I feel like he'd be willing to have a good conversation about it if we sat next to each other on a plane or something :)
Roman Catholicism is not Christianity - in fact it is the opposite of that! It is a distortion of the truth. It encourages faith in the ‘church’ rather than Christ, it is a religion of works rather than of faith through God’s grace. It has multiple errors regarding the ‘priesthood’ and ‘saints’ etc. Biblically all true believers are saints, and priests, our great High Priest being the Lord Jesus Christ. The Papacy is built on totally false foundations and has an appalling history of violence and corruption. Roman Catholicism is a counterfeit faith to deceive people.
I would encourage you to get to know some faithful Catholics and become friends with them and then learn what they believe both from their lives and also form the things Catholics actually teach and believe. It may be that some day you realize that even though you disagree with them, you realize they're your spiritual brothers, or at least to respond in a way that comes across as you caring for them, rather than just making accusations.
I used to think kind similar to you, and it took a lot of travail and learning to realize my attitude was misinformed and jurgmental. And by way I do think there is a place to confront falsehood. It's just that I think the way way you're seeking to go about it likely just makes people dig in their heels and get defensive.
@@thirdparsonage
I know a very great deal about Catholics and Catholicism, as many of my family were catholic - sadly passed on now. I am not saying that catholics cannot be Christians, only God knows who His children are, but that ‘Catholicism’ in itself is not Christianity, it is a distortion and a perversion of the true biblical faith. Anyone with the slightest understand of the Apostolic faith and teaching found in Scripture would concur with me.
Ken Ham won't care about this. He's already in conflict with other YEC's as well.
Excellent brother. Thank you for talking about this. This has so much to do with the fall of creation, the source of the fall. And the multiple beings that have place in creation.
I don't really have anything to add, but I simply must say, thank you! This was a very necessary video. Love your work, Gavin!
I can tell you are very genuine and are doing this for the right reasons. Praying for you to be an instrument for The Lord to use and lead the lost and confused to the Truth of Jesus Christ.
I rejected young Earth creationism primarily due to reading the text. The more I studied, the less it seemed plausible that it was meant to be literalistic history, but rather was telling the story of our first ancestors in such a way as to generate the themes of redemption for the rest of the biblical story.
I rejected young earth creationism primarily due to the overwhelming evidence.
Really? I came to the exact opposite conclusion based on the text and the literary genre of Genesis.
I also came to my conclusion based on the comments of Jesus, Paul, and Peter in the new testament giving support to Genesis being historical and not metaphorical allegory.
And your reason as posted above doesn't logically support your conclusion. Perhaps there is more you just didn't mention concerning your reasoning.
I am going to pray God does something to open your eyes to His truth He has given us in Genesis. I also request you begin to petition Him yourself for a proper understanding. It is very important for God's children to get this right.
Then at what point in the old testament do you start believing the bible? So is Jesus just a story of a different dude to get a point across?
as a YEC i fond it very shameful that many of my fellow Christians are so unchariatble. I have seen how YEC christians tend to be demeaning, angry, rude and confrontational. All of these attitudes are not Christian. I would love to see other YEC be willing to admit there is flexibility in interpretation and be more humble in responding to fellow Christians we disagree with
As a young earth creationist, I can give you an answer to why that is. I myself and every single person on my team for that matter, were raised by atheists and were atheists. We were the type that laughed and mocked Christians and only recently have we converted to become Christians ourselves and unfortunately we still bear that Ike flesh. It’s hard to just change who you are instantly. So yes, we have this aggressive attitude still sometimes and I find that we fight fire with fire. Over time we will change but you will notice it is the atheists we target, not believers of any denomination
We should always be charitable. But in Ken Ham's defense (and other YEC apologists like myself) we can be so angry because millions of youth have left the faith because of false science and corrupted biblical history....and its horrifying.
@@jeremystrand7095oh, yes. So true. Many people lost their faith because of bad theology, human made theories about the gospels and their reliability, etc.
Therefore when I found Christ I read about 30 books before starting to study theology, to steelman my own faith as best I could against the liberal theology I might encounter. Worked pretty well 😊. And I always had good grades because of all that reading.
This is a much needed perspective Gavin. Thank you, as always, for bringing clarity, historical perspective, and a gracious tone to an important discussion.
Thanks for this video, Gavin. Many young people leave the faith when they leave the Young Earth echochamber and hear good arguments for an Old Earth outside their church, especially when it has been tied to being an issue of salvation - this grieves my heart. Glad to see you focus on Scripture and Church history.
I think you should give Ken Ham a good listen then as he explicitly argues this point in particular.
The problem isn't that kids are taught YEC, it's that they aren't. They're told God made the world in 6 days (As Exodus 20 plainly states) and no further elaboration is given, no further teaching or guidence. Questions are palmed off as 'Trust in Jesus!" and not taken seriously.
Ken Ham and his ministry labor to provide rigorous evidences for Young Earth but he ALWAYS points to the scripture as authority and presents the challenge that we either accept God's word, or Man's word.
In general, it is a problem that young Christians are not taught apologetics. Sent into the battlefield that is the world without armor or a shield.
In general, the problem is that anyone at all is taught YEC because it's clearly a false teaching. If you teach your children YEC, they will leave the church when they discover the church is teaching them falsehoods. Simple as that.
@@TheBlinkyImp
Do you disagree with the Earth being created in 6 days and the global flood?
@@The_Bored_Theist I would recommend understanding Genesis was given by the Holy Spirit to Moses. If you believe NE cosmology influenced Moses in his writings, you don't believe in divine inspiration of the Word of God. Bringing NE cosmology to the discussion is giving the devil and invitation to our table.
You need to read and understand 2 Peter 1:20-21. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
@@kriegjaegerThere are literally people in the comment sections under this video saying that if young earth creationism is false then God does not exist. So if you were to show them that yec is false what would they do? Arguing that they haven't really been taught YEC is just disingenuous, I've personally attended churches who utilize AIG materials in their Sunday schools and youth groups. The fact of the matter is the scenario laid out in the video and by others here in this thread is by far more likely, and is borne out by observation again and again. I'm fine with anyone wanting to be a YEC, but when you elevate it to salvific levels of importance, it's not surprising that when it's shown to be false people will then abandon the faith.
Thank you so much for doing this! My daughter is part of a Christian youth group where many of them chastised her and told her she was going to hell for not believing in YEC. At the time, she was already struggling with her faith after losing her father, and this made things even harder. 2 years later, she is still affected by it. She knows and believes God created the earth & everything. I teach her to have civil disagreements with others on secondary issues. I wish all Christian parents would train their kids to do the same and not condemn other kids because they don't agree on secondary issues. Thanks again and I look forward to watching the rest of the segments. Praying for you & your ministry.
Your comment was sad to read. To make this issue a part of salvation is wrong. That would be adding to the Gospel message of Jesus Christ. My prayers go out for both you and your daughter.
Thank you for this. Mr. Hamm's position--and the way he argues it--has always troubled me. A little too triumphalist for my taste. Your defense of a *traditional* view of non-24 hour creation day, based on scripture and church history, is excellent.
as a YEC i've always found Ken Hams dogma far too narrow. i'm ok with "days" being more flexible and Genesis being at least somewhat poetic. it seems too obtuse to be so wooden on the issue
I lean towards young earth, but agree with you. I don’t like the triumphalist tone, as in “I’m right and everyone else is ab-solutely wrong”. It’s like, if you are not a YEC you destroyed Christianity all together, so don’t even bother be a Christian.
Gavin, it’s great that you do videos for your audience, but Ken can’t think on this level.
Wow. That’s rude.
As per modern Creationism, Scripture is not Science. It’s Ancient literature teaching Theology. It’s a simple matter of genre. Ancient hearers would not have modern questions. Imposing our categories onto the text is a major problem w Creationists hermenuetics.
Whether or not things are literal, they can still be metaphorical.
Surely we're not supposed to believe the ancients didn't understand Genesis 1-3? That's preposterous!! They would have understood it to be a historical retelling of exactly what took place.
They would have summed it up like this:
[+] For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Exod 20:11)
[+] It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’” (Exod 31:17)
Does any of that sound metaphorical? Does any of that suggest categories common to 21st century pleebs, but foreign to ancient minds?
Respectfully - don't flatter yourself.
Moses had no problem communicating exactly what he meant (just as he did for the next 100 chapters of the Pentateuch). He could have said differently about creation if he wanted to. After all, the ancient Egyptians (who trained him for 40 years) believed the earth was millions of years old. Those categories of thought were not at all foreign to him.
Yet Moses went out of his way to repeatedly communicate a 6-day creation.
You should too.
@@timfoster5043Here is a question. What does traditional Jewish rabbinical study say? We’re building a new road right in parallel to a very old one.
@@steveOCalley > What does traditional Jewish rabbinical study say?
That's an interesting question. Is Moses undecipherable to you that you need to appeal to an authority to interpret him?
If these rabbis were right about everything, I would pay close attention to them. But they got Jesus wrong, didn't they? And Jesus said they didn't believe Moses (Jn 5). Are you sure you want to get on their ship?
Just a thought.
@@steveOCalley Earlier, I quoted Moses (in Exodus) to summarize his own writings in Genesis 1-2. I'm not sure why that's not enough to convince us what Moses meant.
However - I suppose there is the oddball chance that Moses somehow meant something mystical and undecipherable in Gen 1-11, and yet something coherent for the rest of Genesis, Exodus, Lev and Deut. It could be helpful to pull in a different Jewish reader, from a century other than our own.
To that end, here's Flavius Josephus, 1st century Jewish historian, writing 1400 years after Moses, telling us what he thinks of Moses' writings about Creation.
"On the sixth day he created the four-footed beasts, and made them male and female: on the same day he also formed man. **Accordingly Moses says, That in just six days the world, and all that is therein, was made. And that the seventh day was a rest, and a release from the labor of such operations**; whence it is that we Celebrate a rest from our labors on that day, and call it the Sabbath, which word denotes rest in the Hebrew tongue."
- Antiquities. Book 1, Ch 2
From where I sit, Joseph reads and comprehends Genesis 1 exactly like any unbiased 21st century reader would.
Thanks.
Pushed out my church because of this. Very sad. I hope your work will have a great impact on the Church. It’s a fight people like I am fighting (as humbly as possible).
Soooo great. Looking forward to Monday 🤩. Thank you for you work sir 🙏🏾
I found Hugh Ross's writings on the topic extremely helpful.
Then you found one man's poorly thought out error to be helpful.
@@scottb4579 In what sense was it "poorly thought out"?
@@bowrudder899 Hugh Ross put faith in the Bible being God's word, because, in his words, it agreed with scientific theory. Namely, Big Bang.
So in other words, Ross placed scientific theory above the Bible in regards to authority. Science is his measuring stick for how he is going to interpret the Word of God. This is backwards.
Secondly, Ross arrives at a tortured understanding of the events of the 4th day by ignoring proper hermeneutics. We just can't say on days 1-3, and 5-6 what is mentioned as being created on those days is actually created on those days, then say, buuuuut, the things created on day 4 were actually created on day 1.
Ross inserts his imagination into the events of day 4 in order to have it harmonize with Big Bang. Hebrew scholars will tell you the sun and other stars were created on day 1, but Ross insists "his" Hebrew scholars will allow for the sun being created on day 1 where there is no mention of it.
I could say more, but I'll stop here. Sorry for the late reply, YT just informed me you responded.
@@scottb4579I haven't read or seen anything of Hugh Ross yet. What are his logical fallacies I should be on the lookout for? Thanks.
@@SpaceCadet4Jesus Hugh Ross has a Ph.d in astronomy. He believes Big Bang comports with Genesis. This has the problem of explaining how the sun could be created before the Earth when the stars were created on Day 4, and Earth on Day 1. He solves this by violating good hermeneutic principles and mangling the Hebrew.
To his credit, he doesn't believe in Darwinian evolution, which he says violates the scriptures.
You can watch a good interplay between Hugh and Dr.Jason Lisle who has a Ph.d in astrophysics and is a young earth christian here on UA-cam. Just type Jason Lisle vs Hugh Ross into the search. I really appreciate Dr. Lisle and his reasoning and logic.
There's also a debate on the John Ankerberg show here on YT from years ago with Ken Ham and Jason Lisle on one side for YEC and Dr Walter Kaiser, a Biblical Hebrew scholar and Dr Ross on the other side for OEC. It's worth viewing and seeing how Kaiser, though an OEC on Ross's side, destroys Ross's position on Day 4 during the debate without realizing what he did.
You summarised some Augustine for us! Thank you! There's so much to read and so little time. Videos like this one are incredibly helpful.
I love your appeal for us to be united despite our differences on this view.
I am surrounded by YEC where I live, and as someone who isn't a YEC, I often find people act very condescendingly towards me as if I just don't view Scripture highly due to my views. We older earth people love the Bible too!
Thank you Gavin. Very clear presentation. I'm looking forward to next week
Wow! I thank God for stirring you to share this truth with the world. God bless you.
It definitely wasn't God stirring him to constantly question God's word.
Personally I'm an OEC but I could see YEC as well. It seems like most of the outrage towards this comes from the YEC side, but unfortunately I have seen some OEC belittle YEC believers as well. Even when I was a YEC I never saw this as some sort of compromise issue.
I disagree, academia is entirely against YEC. Ken Ham is the most outspoken YEC, but the last person other than Kent Hovind I would ever look to for YEC views. He is not a good example of a rational YEC. He attacks everyone who doesn’t think what he thinks in a fallacious way…he doesn’t represent YEC he represents Ken Ham.
@@truthovertea
Agreed, Answers in Genesis Ministry produces a lot but delivers it with scoffing, mockery and advertisement of their products.
Creation Ministries International has a lovely magazine and regular youtube discussions that more focus on the glory of God's creation and evidence of his work in the world than scoffing or belittling darwinists.
As for outrage it is understandable (though not condonable) given that Christian liberalists, Acadamia, atheists and probably a few others I'm forgetting are all arrayed against those who follow plain reading of scripture and the ages God gave us through the generational timeline for the age of the world. Sadly, Ken Ham replies to the vitriol with equal vitriol. I do agree with him on many things, just not his delivery and treatment of others.
Well, the truly glorious part of this debate is the "outrage", in and of itself. I had been hopeful that science would ultimately condemn the historical grammatical hermeneutic, and hence Sola Scriptura, and hence Protestantism altogether. For better or worse, though, it appears there are even Baptists such as Ortlund who accept Evolution. C'est la vie, Darwin failed to defeat Protestantism in one fell swoop, but at least he managed to further fragment it, so that folks like Ken Ham anathematize folks like Ortlund. In other words, Darwin managed to "infuse" condemnation into Protestantism, which will lead to the "process" of Protestantism's death, which will be further actualized each time the sacrament of in-house debate is partaken, and the walls of the edifice suffer the attrition of outrage
@@wayned803what the heck are you even saying, dude. You need to take your pills
I’m sorry to disappoint, but despite the outrage, Christians are knit together by the mutual Spirit that lives in us, so the end result will be greater unity, not less. Also, not all old earthers believe in macro evolution.
Brother, you are such a blessing.
Dr Ortlund Thank you for a very well-balanced video on the subject of the days of creation. As someone who is doing a lot of reading and research around the subject of creation and evolution, it was refreshing to approach it from a church history perspective. I will be intrigued to see your follow-up videos in that an old earth creationist view is generally rejected because of evolution's demand for long ages. I will be fascinated to see how you deal with macro-evolution and micro-evolution and how that fits with a biblical understanding of the gospel. I love your videos and have been blessed so much by them. Thank you, my brother.
Thanks for this video Gavin. I have been taught young earth creationism and even argued for it while attending public school but I'm glad to know that earlier church fathers had different views. I find the ongoing research by ICR very fascinating and the evidence for a whole earth flood seems to be almost obvious but I am interested to hear your well-educated conclusions as well.
This is excellent, Gavin! To be honest, I have really struggled with this. Particularly, as someone who has argued for a literal interpretation of Genesis 1, I could not understand how fellow brothers and sisters in Christ could not see it the same way. But I feel much more enlightened now from this video, and can now understand where those other views come from by other Christians. It is nice to see that even older Church fathers contemplated Genesis' meaning. What a neat debate! Thanks, Gavin! God bless you!
This is a blessing to hear! Thank you for sharing your process my friend!
I went to a Christian college. It was one of the best decisions of my life. Yet, even in school this was not a hot button topic. Why have you struggled with the Gensis account? I like to hear the beliefs of other Christians. God Bless!
@@Disciple793Thank you for asking! When I say "struggle," I am referring to a struggle of discernment of truth between the new-earth creationism and old-earth creationism. Specifically, I wrestled over why God would say "day" and "night" and not mean a 24-hour period that He has defined throughout the Bible. I hope that clarifies what I mean. Gavin's presentation on this really opened my eyes and heart as to the other side of this interpretation. Super fascinating. God Bless!
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
Love this video Dr. Ortlund, so looking forward to the follow up! Thank you for your bravery in putting this out. I’ve learned from experience it can be so hard & painful to challenge peoples’ established church culture. It’s like saying to a group of Holiness Pentecostals or I.F. Baptists, “It’s Biblically not a sin to consume alcohol, in fact Jesus did….” then experiencing the explosive rage & rejection they can hurl at you. You’re a strong man Gavin, my prayers are with you!
I really could have used this info as a young Christian 25 years ago. Thank you so much for this.
Great video. I tend to agree with Ken Ham but I appreciate your point about historical Christian views on this issue and how it should not be considered a primary issue.
Don´t forget that even "the early church" was infiltrated by anti-Christ.
Love it. A very timely and much needed video for me. Book recommendations are great too. Would love to see them mentioned in video descriptions too. Ready for the next video.
"In the church we often emphasize being a sinner, and have underemphasized being a human being. . . a creature of God."
🔥🔥🔥
Great video Gavin! I'd really appreciate a video that focuses on the textual arguments for a non 6-day reading of Genesis 1. Thanks again
Check out Hugh Ross and ‘Reasons to Believe’… he gives a great explanation of an Old Earth model (non 6-day reading) from the Bible.
So does Greg Koukl, Stand to Reason and John Lennox.
Gavin. I love your channel
Gavin ortlund is great 😃
Getting into so much of his stuff after being made aware of him by Megan Basham 😂
Will most likely purchase his book about this on Audible!
great to hear, hope you enjoy!
As someone who is not fully sold on the idea of old earth creationism and young earth creationism, I appreciate the way you deal with these issues. Even when I disagree, I don't find myself having to be defensive because it feels you are just a fellow Christian wanting to learn :)
As a YEC, I respect your thoughts and appreciate your video. God bless
Very sad to hear that someone would walk away from the LORD on this issue. We don't know HIS ways and there are many things in the Bible that can confuse people. However HIS love for us isn't one of them. Love your neighbor and don't argue things that would cause them to stumble. Thanks for the video
This was an excellent video. Thank you for this. I struggle back and forth on how literal the creation story in Genesis is. Either way, it's not an issue that should prevent fellowship between Christians
I’m so thankful for your videos on this topic. I have been accused of not believing in the inerrancy of the Bible because of my belief in an old earth so many times, when that couldn’t be further from the truth.
I watched that video you are referencing and it was so frustrating. Thank you for this video!
God is so far above our understanding and even science cannot answer all the questions we might have about creation. Humility is always needed and is available as a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Great video. Thanks Gavin!
I recently left a church I was considering joining because the pastor claimed believers in evolution are rebelling against God. I realized I couldn't meaningfully serve there. It is hard, because I really liked that church.
If man evolved from animals, at what point did man gain a rational soul distinguishing him from animals? If animals are incapable of sin, at what point did the animal "man" gain culpability for said sins and a need to be redeemed? If man was descended from animals, who is "Adam" in Gensis? If "Adam" is only metaphorical, what is he metaphorical for? If Jesus is the "Last Adam" sent to redeem mankind from the sin brought upon us by the "First Adam", but the "First Adam" is only a metaphorical concept describing early man (or the animal that would eventually become them), what exactly is Christ redeeming us from? And if sin and death are natural parts of creation (as all evolution hinges on the concept of good traits being passed on through procreation, and bad traits being discarded and lost through death of the "less fit"), then what exactly is Christ redeeming us to, if there was never a perfect painless deathless state of being to begin with?
"Believing in evolution is rebellion against God" sounds hyperbolic and harsh. But the thing being criticized is not just a general amorphous concept - it is a series of multiple, multiple, multiple building blocks making up a framework of how you see the world and by extension God's inclusion in it. It may not be direct intentional rebellion, but it fundamentally antithetical to the very essence of Salvation when it is broken down into its elements.
@@drawingdragon I can't reasonably be expected to answer every single question in a UA-cam comment. I can, however, point out that that is all they are. None of them positively demonstrate a contradiction between the Gospel and the scientific theory of evolution. And if that is true, then this is an area where believers can have reasonable theological conversations without charging their opponents with heresy.
On the one hand, I am glad I had the experience growing up in a creationist church because it helped me take scripture seriously, learn how to analyze people's presuppositions, and fall in love with the first dozen chapters of Genesis.
On the other hand though, having to re-orient my brain around how to understand scripture (like acknowledging genre and the history of tradition), how to engage issues with charity and irenicism, and how to value all of scripture has been a serious struggle.
I would say creationism was a major reason I have pursued theological training at an academic level, so I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with it. The process has been long, but videos like this have been such a help along the way. This video will be a helpful resource that I can give people if they have questions around this topic!
My experience has been the opposite. I became a believer as a child but accepted the worldly view of deep time and the evolution of ‘kinds’. Then in my adult years I came to see the necessity as a true believer of accepting the Bible as true from the first to the last word and God-breathed. I then came to see the unacceptability of accepting the Theory of Evolution which of necessity would have death and dying as part of God’s plan from the beginning, which contradicts God’s word. When I came to accept God’s word as inerrant and true my faith soared.
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
Thank you for the Augustine book recommendation. It's been really helpful and enjoyable. Thank you
Looking forward to the follow-ups! Thanks for attempting to prune this thorny topic.
I believe that young earth creationism is the view that most conforms with a natural interpretation of Genesis chapter 1 without allegorizing the text even though it is the view that most conflicts with modern science. For instance some Christians who accept an old earth or theistic evolution believe that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are not historical which would depart from biblical orthodoxy.
James 1:4
If one accepts scripture is truly God's word, why do they feel the need to harmonize it with man's?
It seems to me of all manuscripts and scripture, it is the most clear and simple explanation he's given us, and yet people labor so hard at trying to make it fit what man thinks.
I wonder though, when God created the heavens and the earth, it doesn't say how long that took. The first day only appears after the separation of day and night, light and darkness. The Bible never mentioned how much time went by before that first day. So we only have a starting point when this first day was counted. And later on, some people lived for hundreds of years. I think I'll have to do the actual math how many years it really was from Adam to Jesus. Shouldn't that be quite a lot? Would we arrive at the 5000 plus years of the Jewish calender?
Okay, it certainly can't be millions since men was made but before the separation of light and darkness, we don't really know...
"modern science" is destroying Creation and its main objective is to eradicate the Creator.
@@kriegjaeger pride is the urge to physically and mentally triumph over the Creator. It hasn´t worked yet, but science continues to hammer away at their new and improved tower of Babel II. (the con-struction of de-construction).
Thank you for this ministry Gavin
Thanks!
Great video as always. One fault I often find with "Christian Apologetics" is the mistaken belief that we have to have "all' the answers. The older I get, the more willing I am to simply acknowledge "I don't know"....and be OK with that statement. When I was younger, I consider this to be almost insulting, to acknowledge that I didn't know. Now, I recognize that not knowing is not an insult, it's a reality.
To make matters worse, there seems to be this "gotcha' type of mentality among debaters on the subject that often hold Christians to, and theist in general, where ANY acknowledgment of "not knowing" or "not having" an answer for a challenge means by default that those in atheistic circles are correct in whatever belief that they hold or argue by default. Of course, the opposite is not applied, meaning that an atheist need not have "all the answers" and yet they are often given a pass often with the, mistaken, belief that eventually given enough time, they will.
I think the "gotcha" type debating style so prevalent today, has had a polarizing effect on Christians, causing them to argue definitively on matters that reality, study and observation provides much greater flexibility. While it is important to hold to scripture as definitive, we must be willing to acknowledge that it is not scripture which is lacking, but our understanding of it that is often flawed.
In the end, I care less over the amount of time it took GOD to create the universe, the Earth and all that is therein, than I do the fact and awesomeness that HE created it, me and everything else. I care less over which came first, the chicken or the egg, than I care over his love and compassion towards what he created that he was willing to express that love through an act of sacrifice to provide us a gift as great as eternal life. It is my observation of death that makes me recognize the splendor of life and the significance of eternal life.
We do a great disservice to the witness of the gospel whenever we argue definitively on matters which scripture does not.
Fully agree. John 21:22: "...what is that to you? You must follow me.” There are some things which should not worry about.
Quite true. I made the same "discovery" when studying theology. There comes a point in many debates about the Bible and Christianity when I simply had to say, we don't know but I believe it.
Many of those clever theories in theology stand on shaky ground. The whole word "Theology" is at its core an impossibility. We can't have a "science about God", we can only bow down to him and try to follow his word in the end.
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
"Till we all come to the unity of the faith _and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ_ ;(Eph. 4:13)"...but _grow_ in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ(2 Pet. 3:18)"...It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, _but the glory of kings is to search out a matter_ (Pro. 25:2)." No true Christian could have such a lazy perspective on biblical education.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. As always, I’m grateful for your willingness to discuss these challenging topics in a spirit of charity and irenicism. Had I not discovered, through the help of my pastor and other resources, the fact that this issue has and never was a settled debate in the church historically, I may not be a Christian today. I had several people try to convince me that YEC was a hill to die on (and that any other opinion was merely sin and rebellion against God) when I was still a fairly new believer. As someone who wanted to be a paleontologist for many years as a child, that was too big a pill to swallow-not because of “sinful presuppositions” but because the evidence to me pointed clearly in the OEC/theistic evolution direction. But I’m all for brothers and sisters having differing convictions on this subject, and I’m more than happy to discuss this issue (and even be proven wrong!) on this matter. Thank you again for being a champion of charitable, Christ-centered dialogue! I’m truly grateful for your work and your ministry!
Just a thought from someone who thinks in a ‘simple’ way. When I read the Bible it says to me that God created the ‘heavens and the earth’ first, but then the Earth was ‘without form and void’. After that God began to form and design the Earth as a home for mankind in 6 days. So I see no problem with any ‘true’ scientific findings. The problem though with a lot of ‘science’ is that it is far too sure of itself and many scientists are often vociferously anti-Christian, then after a decade or two the ‘books’ are having to be re-written as new and revolutionary findings are discovered, and the subject is found to be far more complicated and profound than they formerly imagined. I do not not believe for one minute that Christians need to be apologetic (in the regretful way) at all. God created the heavens and the earth and then formed it in a wonderful way in six days as a home for man. Done!
Hi Gavin, found you through Andrew Wilson’s Think Theology and God bless you for making these videos. I struggled with these issues and didn’t have a place to turn to as a new Christian. God has been faithful and every time I said I am being swallowed up by doubt and darkness and fear, He shone His light. Praying for you.
Really appreciated this information, I wasn’t aware of most of it
Wonderful stuff as always, Gavin! Perfectly done.
I used to be a diehard YEC. What changed my mind was realizing that I was reading Genesis through my 21st century lens. I began to struggle with statements that didn't align to reality, which greatly troubled me. That's when I figured out the problem was me, and not the Scriptures. Now, I read it as an ancient person would have understood it.
I wish I could like this comment 100 times. Thanks for the encouragement!
@crazycoolkids00 I'm really truly thankful that the Lord guided me to resources that could help answer my questions. Going through the process was difficult, but my faith only grew stronger in the end.
You've piqued my curiosity....
1. How, exactly, would the Israelites of Moses' day have understood Gen 1-3? Since they didn't have our 21st century eyes, How would they have read it?
2. For whatever answer you give to number one, how do you know that's correct?
Serious questions, submitted in all humility.
You've piqued my curiosity....
1. How, exactly, would the Israelites of Moses' day have understood Gen 1-3? Since they didn't have our 21st century lens, How would they have read it?
2. For whatever answer you give to number one, how do you know that's correct?
Serious questions, submitted in all humility.
@Tim.Foster123 Thank you for the questions. I want to preface by saying that I treat this topic as a secondary issue. Also, I understand how and why others draw different conclusions than me.
An ancient Israelite would have understood Genesis with the knowledge that they had at that time. More importantly, they would have understood the theological messaging in Genesis. Their focus was theological, not scientific. Therefore, I read Genesis literally, but I am mainly looking for the theological messaging within it. To aid my interpretation of Genesis, I use many other passages in the Bible that describe elements from within Genesis. That helps understand how the Israelites understood Genesis.
I hope that answers your questions. If there's a more specific question that I didn't answer, please let me know. God bless!
Great video as always Dr. Ortlund. One of the Ken Ham/YEC calling cards is that "Yom" is normally interpreted as 24 hour periods throughout the Bible. A treatment of this would be of great service.
IMO it is not so much that this is incorrect. The mistake is that the way the text is constructed and the culture it comes from show us that we are in the realm of poetry (which nevertheless tells us very true things about God, the world, and human purpose.) For instance, we could talk of parallels between days 1-3 > habitations or realms, and then days 4-6 > inhabitants or ruling functionaries of those realms. The Mesopotamian world was not scientific as we understand the term and did not understand the cosmos as a machine running by ordered laws. Rather, what the gods were like and what humans were made for was the primary concern. The Israelite Scriptures are casting a unique theological vision that communicated truth on these localized cultural and religious terms.
There is also the matter of pacing. Why does creation take only 2 chapters but by the time we get to the patriarchs, the author slows down to tell us how Isaac was comforted after the death of his mother? The pacing of Genesis 1-11 is hyper compressed compared to 12-50. This is another indication that 1-11 is telling a primeval story in which theology and human telos is primary and a timeline is somewhat of an afterthought.
Thank you, Gavin, for your input on this topic. I'm surprised to read the comments. When it comes to the triage approach, I rank this issue so low on the scale that I'm hard-pressed to think of anything that means less to me! God created all that exists and all that exists is witness to it.