Is Same-Sex Marriage an "Agree-to-Disagree" Issue?
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2024
- In this video I respond to recent comments by Andy Stanley in the wake of the Unconditional Conference regarding whether same-sex marriage (and other related matters of human sexuality) are an "agree-to-disagree" issue.
See the Sean McDowell and Alan Schlemon video: • Andy Stanley's Uncondi...
See Sam Allberry Christianity Today article: www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...
Truth Unites exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
01:24 - The Need For Compassion
02:28 - Andy Stanley's Position
04:33 - (1) Is Same-Sex Marriage a Christian Option?
06:56 - (2) The Subtlety of the Appeal
09:12 - (3) An Inclusive Welcome vs. An Inclusive Affirmation
11:16 - (4) An Ambiguous Definition of Love
13:02 - (5) Is Chastity Realistic?
15:17 - An Agree-to-Disagree Issue?
16:30 - The Witness of Church History
19:28 - The Witness of Scripture
22:38 - A Final Appeal - Розваги
I was an atheist and sex addict for much of my life. My addiction ruined any relationships I might have had. There was so much money, time, effort, mental space given over to attaining that excitation and release that I today can't believe it.
In my late 40's, after coming to Christ, I was still certain that God didn't really care about the things we do in the flesh. But after two years of walking with Jesus, the Holy Spirit in a single moment convicted me in my whole body, convinced me, and delivered me from the addiction that I had been under most of my life. The freedom I have now is so much greater than the compulsion I had before. I would never want to go back to it.
I pray that all bound by addictions of any type be set free by the power of Christ. It is for freedom that we have been set free.
“Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”
1 Corinthians 10:12-13 NASB1995
Praise God! The enemy usually tries to come hard after one shares a testimony like this so I would like to encourage you again with the above. Blessings to you in the name of the Lord!
God Bless you Brother! Jesus saved me from a 25+ year alcohol addition,even when I called on the name of Jesus I was still drinking ,still a lukewarm Christian ,still living in my sin,still thinking I could do it all by myself. Then last September I cried out to Jesus to help me because I couldn’t do it on my own anymore. I stopped drinking September,went to service in October and was Baptised in November and I have walked with the LORD ever since! 🙏
What a testimony! Thank you for sharing! God bless you in your new-found freedom!
Praise God brother! 🙌🏻 Similar testimony here
There are clearly cases where attachment to sex causes spiritual harm. But, given Ortlund's view that Christianity should primarily serve to make people happy in the "here and now" and give them hope for a hereafter, then why would he hold to a Romans 1 doctrine of homosexuality, especially in California??? This kind of view would put his congregation at serious odds with the surrounding culture. It puts a huge chasm between his church and potential gay converts (what do you do about the ones who are already legally married or have had gender reassignment, and possibly dependent children?), and how could you not expect the ones who do manage to extricate themselves from that lifestyle and convert not to wrestle with constant self-loathing, despair, and worries that God has already "given them up"? Where's the happiness in that? And as difficult as that situation would be for them, what do you do with the parishioners who have family in that lifestyle? Isn't that a ton of additional conflict and alienation just waiting to happen? Shouldn't we expect Ortlund to adopt a more progressive hermeneutic on this matter?
"Jesus says come as you are. He doesn't say stay as you are." Very well put.
Yes, and he also crew lines on right and wrong! Take for instance the time he cleared the temple of the sellers(merchants) that were over charging for their animals that were being sold for sacrifice. He cleared it because they were in effect taking more(in some cases much more) than the animal would have been sold for if they were to charge the right price.
But Jesus also said in order to enter heaven you must repent, which means to change who you are. If that isnt clear enough, and he is accpeting of everyone, then why is HE warning us of his wrath that is coming? Who is the wrath for then???
Also...if he was "accepting" of gays, then why did HE DESTROY Sodom and Ghemmhora...? And why does GOD say when we are in "the days of Lot", HE will destroy it again. Better read your Bibles with more discernment people.
I appreciate this video Pastor Ortlund. Too many leaders today are clouding the issue and it’s always encouraging to see someone stand for truth. Keep on fighting the good fight of faith!
Gavin’s clip of Andy starts about 3m too late. You MUST watch the whole sermon referenced - ua-cam.com/video/JEPHnpos17A/v-deo.html . If you do not watch the entire sermon from Andy, please watch from the 39 min mark on. Andy affirms Paul’s stance on same sex sin in Romans 1, 1 Cor 6 and 1st Timothy 1. He also affirms that sex outside of marriage is sin and that sin is only between one man and one woman.
@bobtaylor I have watched the whole thing. Stanley contradicts himself. What if we substituted another sin issue, like porn watching, as Gavin proposed, or, say, adultery, sex with children, wife beating, murder, etc.? One could compromise on any biblical issue if one were so inclined, and find a “biblical” excuse for it.
Who was it who said, “Did God not say…?” We are not here to please ourselves. Be kind and understanding to repentant sinners. We are such ourselves. But Jesus and the Apostles had harsh words for the unrepentant, and for those who encourage their sinful behavior.
@@melodysledgister2468important to approach this issue with compassion. Nothing wrong with first drawing people to Christ and his love for them rather than as a starting point saying you’re going to hell if you don’t change. I bet many of these same critics, had they homosexual urges, would have just a hard time resisting them.
What I don’t get though is why does it matter with belief in sola fide? Jesus did all the work so all people have to do is profess faith in him and they are saved right? How many sins do you continue to do on a daily basis?
Clear and powerful. Thank you.
What Dr. Ortlund calls his "irenic approach" has sometimes made me think that he was unwilling to speak a deeply unpopular truth, such as this one. I am glad to find that I was wrong.
This old ex-Catholic needed to hear that last 3-ish minutes...again and again. God bless/thx for speaking boldly, from your heart, Pastor Gavin.
We Catholics love Jesus too!
@@kirkzandier8995We know you do 😊
Thank you for the message.
I was divorced in 2017 and I've abstained from sex since that time. I've just hit my 40s and it's been hard - especially after being sexually active throughout the marriage - but I do it because it's what Christ commanded.
The commands about sexuality are clear, and they apply to everyone. Whenever I see these creative arguments to excuse homosexuality (and in some cases to even call it fine and good), I can't help but laugh. I don't know any other fitting response.
What would all the people who excuse homosexual attraction have to say to me?
Would they tell me that I can have sex with women and it's fine? Or would they draw lines? Would they tell me that it's okay for me if I can do it, but not everyone can be celibate?
Let's just call this what it is. It's terrible pastoring. It's pandering to people who value their relationships with sinners more than they do obedience to Christ. That's it.
Thank you again, and please continue to speak truth.
You obviously didn’t watch Andy’s message and your analogy is off. You seem to be saying same sex attraction is a sin and the church should condemn anyone that has same sex attraction. Please clarify.
I think it's important for Christians to talk about celibacy now so I'm here to add my voice. I've been celibate almost as long as you have, since I became Christian. And I will remain celibate until I get married - if I ever get married. It's in God's hands.
This approach, where we sacrifice things we enjoy in order to follow Christ, is so countercultural people cannot understand it.
But it's what Christianity is.
I've also worked on temperance in other areas of my life. I consciously eat less, I limit time spent consuming trashy media, and I try really hard to be 'in the world, not of it'.
The last thing Christians should do is make a big noise about our sacrifices, or take pride in them, and I think many of us don't share in detail with outsiders what our walk looks like for that reason.
But now might be a good time for us to start explaining, for the sake of teaching others what the faith really is.
So, good on you bro. Solidarity.
@@sia9907Amen. Well said 🙏🏽
@@toonnaobi-okoye2949 🤍🤍🤍
@sia9907 I appreciate that and respect to you for enduring. I pray that you continue to.
True, “being chaste is easier than martyrdom” really is how it feels, I say that as an unmarried woman (never been sexually active) who struggles with lust and depression in the past. Though God has brought me very far, sometimes stumbling in both is unbearable. Thanks for the video.
Corrie Ten Boom also struggled with this. I highly recommend her book "In My Father's House"
Seek a husband
Start living if it's not too late. Your statement is horrible and people who indoctrinated you into religious crap ought to be prosecuted. 🥶
seek ye first the Kingdom of God and come out of her.
I feel your pain. I didn't marry till I hit 50. Those years of singleness were sometimes brutal. I wish I could go back in time and redo so much. I pray God lifts your heart, and soothes your soul.
Is a gospel without repentance good for anything?
I've heard it said, "If you confuse you lose." Andy Stanley lost us with bringing unfortunate obfuscation over something that is very clear in Scripture. And worse, missed an opportunity to share a fuller presentation of the gospel as you highlighted. I really appreciate the clarity you brought here.
I've also been told; The Bible is meant to be understood.
It should be represented as written. The moment you start adding to it like he did you are going astray.
@@kriegjaeger so the Earth is only 7 days old, is that what you are saying?
Thank you for this, brother! I was comfort actually when you said that Christianity is hard. Following Jesus is hard. I have said this many times and brothers and sisters look at me confused. They ask why and praise God they say it is easy for them and they have a zeal for God. I thought it was just me that has found Christianity to be hard. I often fight my temptations and i have plenty. My wife and i are Christians. I am the only Christian from my side of the family and I told my wife i feel like compromising just to be more welcomed by my parents and sisters but Praise God this is only our temporary home. I look forward everyday to be in God's kingdom so i won't feel so much temptation and feel so weak.
Stand strong 💪 Just make sure it’s holiness and the gospel that offends them, not you, and not imposing your values on them.
@ricksonora6656 Christianity is supposed to be a place of rest. However, the good fight is walking day by day, moment by moment, believing this. Don't let the enemy rob you of a life of peace, rest, and hope in Christ. Circumstances are hard, but, even with hard circumstances Christians should be growing in their understanding of what it means to still be at peace on the inside as you go through each and every issue.
God never blesses what He condemns, and neither can His church.
Well said!!
Not true at all, God blesses many people in the old testament who did not follow a more "tradition" marriage/relationships AND both God and Paul very explicitly justify slavery and have no problem with Christians still being christians and yet continuing the SIN of owning another human being
The Church welcomes everyone but not everything
Yet, evangelicals welcomes Trump. Go figure
@@geojjjackson3535such a ridiculous argument bringing politics into this.
Is life long sobriety not possible for some Christians, is life long abstaining from violence impossible for some, Heroin addiction is impossible to give up for many...shall we provide free needles in church bathrooms and a clean environment for shooting up with phlebotomists on duty? How about a wet bar in the basement? Can’t give up seeing prostitutes? Shall we reinstate temple prostitution? We can accommodate all sin in the name of inclusion and affirmation.
For some people, resisting the urge to sleep with prostitutes is sustainable, but for others that is not sustainable. For them, they choose to have a public ceremony declaring that they will continue seeing prostititues until they die and will never repent. That is THEIR choice. We need to meet them where they are at.
@@TheRoarkI see what you did there. Well said!
Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): "If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust."
The problem starts with making sin a part of our core identity. What's the most important thing in the world, falling in love and getting married or where we spend eternity? We don't build theology around our failure to have dominion over the desires of our flesh.
Well said
You do not even consider you are heterosexual you just are, just as homosexuals do; it may be hard for you to imagine being attracted to the same sex but you did not choose heterosexuality nor does the homosexual they just are. Now if you claim you chose heterosexuality then there is choice but I doubt you will.
This is the big issue. If a person calls himself or herself a Gay Christian they are accepting the first word as on par with the second and linked together. If a person says they are a Christian who struggles with same s*x attraction they are saying something very different.
@@wejpasadena1 This is the big issue? the only big issue? It seems a certain type of Christian is fixated on less than one per cent of the population the big issue could equally be the fornicating Christians in the church.
@@annodomini7250 Yes, how we identify ourselves is huge! It defines our core concept of self. If we root our identity in Christ and in the struggle to reject sin and follow Him we are making clear that we embrace the work God has done and is doing in our hearts. In addition the term G*y itself is closely identified with a political/social agenda which is antithetical to Christian doctrine. Fornication is sinful, but right now there aren’t a lot of people insisting that the Church change its teaching on this subject. If there were, then that would be a big issue.
The mistake the Church made was making the Church a place of evangelism. Jesus said, "Go into the whole world and share the gospel." The church is for God's children. Paul also dealt harshly in the way he was going to deal with sexual immorality in the Church of Corinthians 5
Andy, "For many, this [celibacy] is not sustainable." Christ calls his children to take up our crosses and follow him. Christ sustains his people. This is the message that needs to be heard, no matter what sin you're struggling against.
It's obvious you have no idea what this "sin" is. May I ask you when did you chose to be straight? How dare you deny your Christian brothers and sisters their right to a happy God-loving Christian life with all the joys, comforts, and even heartaches that come with a loving relationship. Where's your notorized affidavit from your supposedly all-loving God allowing you to spew such uncompassion?
Dr. O. I grew up in Georgia and went to Northpoint once while in college. I think Mr. Stanley continues to struggle with the Southern fundamentalist culture he grew up in that was often unthinking. But, he has fallen off the other side of the rail. His trajectory has been in a bad direction for a long time. In the post-Obergefell world, we MUST be clear on this. Matthew 19:1-11 is one of the most important Bible passages for our day. As a practicing physician, I fear for my license over this issue, given the direction of the professional societies on the LGBT issue. I appreciate your clarity and fleshing this out. Looking forward to further responses.
I think many of us feel the pressure to conform. I'm a high school teacher and it is scary considering how anti-Christian the modern culture is. I have determined to live by my convictions. I will not tolerate LGBT bullying, but I also am clear I do not agree with it. I respect students enough to call them by name and not a false pronoun
May the Lord protect you and keep as you seek to " not conform to the patterns of this world..."
These are scary times for health care providers as I am one.
BUT UNTO HIM WHO IS ABLE... we commit our fates🙏🏽🙏🏽
That Bonhoeffer quote! Ooof. “Come and die” Christianity can be hard, but so worth it.
Amen!
Love this, calm, compassionate, clear and inspiring.
Great message. Thanks.
“Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.”
“Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.”
“Come as you are, leave as He is.”
So you're now like Jesus?
@@afrocraft1 Jesus imputed righteousness is at work within me. His righteousness is my own.
@@ChadGrindstaff Same with your gay church members then. 🤷🏽♂️
I appreciate this video. So many Christians today are afraid to take a biblical stance against sexual sin in fear of scaring people away.
Christians need to speak up. One of the reasons I stayed away from Christianity for so long was that they didn't appear to stand by their supposed convictions. I don't mean to shift blame - it was only one of the reasons ; another reason was that I also didn't have the strength to act on my beliefs. But I tend to admire people who stand their ground, in whatever context. Don't back down. I might not even agree initially, but if I see someone not backing down, I might join their side just because I see their courage. There are so many issues where Christians need to stand up, and mostly they don't. Who, other than Christians, is going to push back against the tyranny of censorship? Or the tyranny of surveillance? Or the tyranny of forced vaccinations? If Christians don't push back, no one will. And yet... Almost no Christians do. We're sheep... That's not necessarily a good thing. And if we conform to the world on the issue of gay not-marriage, then that defeat will roll into more defeats and we'll lack the strength and experience to stand against other issues, where our participation is critical. And people will choose to stay away from Christ, because we are Luke warm, milk toast, wet sock, losers.
Calling "Chaste" an "old-fashioned" word means for most people today "obsolete." That is how you manipulate language; anything traditional is already taken as meaning "meaningless" or "defunct."
Jesus absolutely drew lines… hard ones… he also made it clear the condition of those that ignored those lines.
Yup
Clarity of the Truth is what killed the Messiah. The world is of the darkness, their deeds are evil.
This was a good and charitable response. Thank you!
"It's their decision." Apply the same logic to any other sin (pedophiles? rapists? murderers?) and would Andy still be saying the same thing about making big circles?
Yeah so do we kick them out of the church or do we accept them and help them change the behavior? I think that is his point.
@@gregmahler9506Do we kick someone out for incest?
@@gregmahler9506That's a strawman. The point is "it's their decision" and if their decision is a sin, them we shouldn't speak of it so lightly. We have to speak of it as what it is: sin. From there we love them in truth
@@gregmahler9506We love them, but don't accept their behavior.
@@Fassnight - a strawman is when I state a claim someone doesn’t actually believe. Where did I do so?
"We aren't trying to change Christian values, it's just that our interpretation of Christian values just-so-happens to correspond to modern, ideological values as much as possible without also scaring off too many people." Wow what a coincidence.
I love that meditation from Anselm. It hits right where it needs to and points us where we need to go. Thanks for this video.
This is how sexual immorality, and all sin, should be handled. This is pastoral care. Thank you so much for this.
Gay is not sexual immorality though.
@@Quint-ib4nf what do you mean?
@@Quint-ib4nf YOU: Gay is not sexual immorality though.
*ME: Homosexuality is not immoral for the world -- you can do whatever you wish. But homosexuality and cross dressing are immoral for Jews and Christians* -- Deut 22:5, Leviticus 18:22, Lev 20:13, Romans 1:25-28, etc -- *and according to the Apostle, those living active immoral sexual lives* (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, bestiality, etc) *are to be removed from the Church so that the entire congregation is not corrupted -- 1Corinth 5*
Sexual orientation is intrinsic, God-created, and inherently good for homosexual and heterosexual people alike.
Jesus died for our sins, not our homosexual or heterosexual orientation.
@@DebbyEvans this is so obviously wrong it's disturbing you believe it. Apply that logic to any other sin - sexual or otherwise- and it falls apart. Rapists, pedophiles, pornographers, etc. do not have intrinsic, God created, and inherently good orientations. Their sexuality has been warped by experience and environment. Homosexuality is no different. Pretending otherwise is just deception.
I’m glad you made a video on this. Really appreciate the work you do.
Thank you pastor for a loving ,crystal clear and Godly response, and give us understanding that people's eternity is at stake, it's living and best to be sincerely honest by speaking the Truth in a loving way🙏
Great video, Gavin. As always, you've provided a very clear, Biblical, pastoral, and sober-minded analysis of this very important and controversial issue without sacrificing truth to compassion or vice versa.
Keep up the great work!
My issue is, of course I want to treat people with respect and compassion, but not at the expense of truth. What is being demanded is affirmation of sin, and if you don't affirm, you don't have compassion so I'm repeatedly told I'm not being loving.
Love is the choice to will the good of the other says St Thomas Aquinas. And that we do. But the world doesn't know what is good for a person.
1 Cor 13:4
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
This is the definition of love, but keep in mind that God is love and Christ, the apostles AB-SO-LUTELY brought condemnation and conviction onto people by telling them what their sin was and how they were failing. But not out of a desire to crush them or hurt them, but to bring them to repentance so they can live rightly under God.
An example in Matthew 23:31 from the word of God himself
31 “But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started. 33 Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?
Saying things they find hurtful or rude doesn't make you unloving. It's the intention of it and that's between you and God.
Our loving Father disciplines His children. Remember Christ’s words to the rich man, to be saved that he would need to sell all his worldly goods and follow Him. He went away disappointed and Jesus did not run after him saying- ok, just give a bit of your riches away. 🙂
Love must be built on truth ; any love outside of truth is unsustainable. That's why God is Love - because He is Truth. Love and Truth are inseparable. Living falsehood, any degree of falsehood, is a denial of meaning ; to deny meaning is to obstruct the transmission of value. All sin is an obstruction of value, and all sin is founded in falsehood, since perfect knowledge would result in perfect action. Being uncompromising on sin is thus the most loving way you can be for other people.
I hope that was understandable. I'm not very well rehearsed in using Christian terminology, but my journey began with an obsession with the concept of truth.
@@fusion9619 You make perfect sense IMO :) You may approach God through many different paths, but the Truth-path is definitely the easiest for me as well.
I can tell Dr Ortlund is treating this issue very carefully. With kindness and compassion. I think of the seven churches in Revelation and I often wonder why these churches and how Jesus through John found errors and addressed them. So many of the apologetic videos out today talk a lot about sticking to the original churches led by the apostles, yet Revelation includes errors and corrections in these first, original churches. I bring that up because those faults Jesus found in the original churches seem to address this issue. The church in Ephesus had abandoned Christ’s teachings and the church of Pergamum had compromised its beliefs. Even the first churches dealt with this. I believe that Jesus needs to be the head of the church, the kingdom…not men. The deception and complacency and tolerance of worldliness and blindness to truth covered in this talk only works on men. Let’s stick with Jesus. He teaches godly truth with loving kindness, yet directly deals with it.
Amen!
Well said and gracious. Such a kind approach while being very clear
Very very well said, I appreciate your heart posture and approach to this topic as always. Keep up the good work!
I think an important thing to point out is that in Galatians 5, when the fruits of the spirit are listed, self control is there. So one could say that a lack of self control is comparable to a lack of love, or kindness, or gentleness. That says a lot about sexual immorality, whether it be from a homosexual relationship or a heterosexual porn watcher.
Thanks for the video Dr Ortlund, really appreciate the work you do. Idk how you find the time!
Thank you so much, Gavin. I deeply appreciate your work. God has poured out grace on you - please continue stewarding it for God's Church.
So well said Pastor Gavin, you spoke the truth in love, that is the most helpful and kind thing to do.
I’m reminded of the scripture that God gives more grace in James 4:6
Grace to help us to submit to him in all things.
Fantastic breakdown!
Thank you for weighing in and speaking truth with kindness and clarity. It seems truth and clarity flew out the window since the emergent and progressive church movement. Many in the churches are not being taught the scriptures and have little knowledge of the church fathers and church history. The RCC and Eastern churches have three year catechisms in order to instruct people. The Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian and some Baptist churches had creeds and confessions and Catechisms for instruction. The churches I attended were non denominational so I didn’t receive a lot of that instruction. I made up for that after I retired. I got a better understanding of some of the groups and origins of certain teachings that were prevalent in the second century and origins of other practices after 500AD. A lot of what we’re seeing today was taking place in the past. Again you have been a great source for keeping people informed of these things. Thank you.
Great work Gavin! Humble and Biblical. Much needed in this conversation!
Tremendous video Gavin!! I always enjoy your content. Oh how believers, unbelievers and the Church need to confess our hubris. Our pride keeps us from truly loving and repenting!
I don't even understand what he means. The guy on the stage, not Gavin.
Too much speaking around the issue.
@sia9907 I remember someone saying a while ago that Andy secretly affirms, but is not open about it, and is easing his congregation into it.
I really hope that this isn’t true, since it’s manipulative, but it’s honestly starting to look like there’s merit to what they said.
@sia9907
I really hope that rumour isn’t true. Let’s pray for Andy, hé real needs it.
@@samueljennings4809 Andy tries to balance love and truth, it's always going to be on the cutting edge. He sincerely believes the Bible fully, he's not on a slippery slope. I agree we should be careful but I believe he is having a successful ministry helping people overcome even in cases of sexuality.
@@samueljennings4809He sounds like a politician, not a pastor.
Also he looks VERY queer himself. And I mean queer specifically, not gay. That's where the lack of boundaries, and the 'circles not lines' comes in.
Queer theology is... interesting.
This is spot on. You articulate the issues with clarity and compassion without deviating from scripture. Thank you!
Thank you for this clear and truthful explanation! I was torn and confused! 🙏
Thank you for the wisdom that you make so freely available.
Thank you, pastor. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I sorely needed to hear those last three minutes. Praise our Lord Christ for all things. Holy Spirit, give us strength and grace.
Telling Christians that they need to
listen to the voices of those who
embrace & promote sinful lifestyles is
just a more subtle & palatable way of
saying, "You need to walk in the
counsel of the ungodly, stand in the
way of sinners, & sit in the seat of
scoffers."
Also,
John the Baptist: "Repent of your
sins, you brood of vipers."
Celeb evangelicals: "I just want to
adopt a posture of listening and
understanding, not saying 'this or
that is wrong.' I want them to know I
am for them, even if we disagree
about their lifestyle."
Sounds like a quote from a well-known preacher! 👎🏻
I stop whatever I’m doing and watch the video when Pastor Ortlund uploads
Thank you so much for addressing this
Bravo, Dr. Ortlund!! Well spoken and balanced with truth and grace. This will be a go-to video for me to share with Christians and those interested in what we believe on this issue. Thank you!
Thank you brother, the Truth is Beautiful, and it will unite all who will. ❤
Jesus literally drew a line (John 8:6).
And while it seems like it's in agreement with what Andy Stanley says, it is only in reference to violent punishment/execution of people for their sins. This is where you already agreed with Andy - we shouldn't abuse people because of their sinfulness. But we cannot be silent about what is sinful. We all are sinners, but turning a blind eye to anyone's sins is not loving.
Thank you Gavin. I've heard several analyses of the Andy Stanley situation. This one is the best so far. As always, I appreciate your Biblically-based, irenic tone.
This is a GREAT ANALYSYS of Andy's sermon/answer!! Thank you. I had those same reservations, as I've listened to his sermon.
Stanley has crossed a boundary into another country and can no longer be considered a Christian preacher but a heretical preacher. What is stronger than agree to disagree...anathema?
Mark and avoid perhaps?
Stanley has made a serious mistake. It is possible he is a heretic, however we should be fully aware, he may have confused his desire to bring people to Christ with his duty to uphold clear scriptural teaching. I always encourage people to be quick to call out bad doctrine, but slow to attack the person it came from. we need to see what his reaction is to people like Dr. Gavin.
Church discipline is first come to them in love and correct them. If they refuse correction, bring someone they respect and another witness. If they refuse them, bring them before the church.
If they still refuse to repent, Paul commanded the church cast out the man engaged in sexual immorality in Corinth. When the man DID repent, he told them to let him back in, lest he be crushed. It's disciplinary but out of Love, hoping the man comes back to Christ.
He chucked out the OT now he is chucking out holiness and repentance. Stanley is a heretic.
He gets the EO blessing for non-EOs: Anathema, Anathema, Anathema!
Wonderful video. If you are reading this, I exhort you: don’t cave in.
What Andy Stanley did this month, church after church and pastor after pastor are going to do in the coming decades. Resolve in your heart not to follow them. Resolve to stand by the Word of God. Resolve to proclaim and uphold the truth though the world and the erring church crucify you. Resolve not to cave in. Christ will reward you on the final day. The most loving thing you can do in this generation is to refuse to call evil good.
Even if you have the opinion that sexuality is not an extremely important topic in and of itself, it is extremely important to stand firm in the truth where our culture is rooted in lies. It’s important to make a stand on this because our culture is so staunchly in the other direction.
Truth it - it's ok to be gay.
Wonderfully put Gavin, thank you for the video.
Thank you! This was a wonderful, compassionate message!
This is great, Gavin. *Clarity is loving*.
I think this sort of unclarity is also unloving on a pastoral and missional. People who are same sex attracted will eventually perceive this sort of thing as gaslighting/they'll experience whiplash. On one level they hear "we can disagree and it's all good" and another they hear in hushed and whispered tones, "yeah but your lifestyle is one of sin". That kind of contradiction in missional approach--if you really think gay sexual relations are sin--leaves people feeling betrayed. People leave the church over stuff like this because they feel like they've been baited and switched. It's much better to just lovingly and compassionately speak with clarity on sin.
Amazing response as always, Dr. Ortlund! You clearly have a pastoral gifting from the Spirit. Thank you for letting God use you in that capacity.
You are an outstanding brother. Thank you and praise God.
I recall hearing Rosaria Butterfield saying about Pastor Ken who ministered to her something to the effect, “I accept you but don’t approve…”
God bless you, Gavin, for your thoughtful insight to this issue of our day. As always, you are a trustworthy and sober minded source. I think this topic has to rank highly on the theological triage model, given how rampantly it is assaulting the church right now. Keep up the good work, brother.
Excellent, Gavin. Thank you.
Incredible teaching, thank you.
I think it's very good to recognize the valid parts of someone's argument even when you disagree with them on their central points. Christians should absolutely affirm that caring for those who currently, or previously, identify with LGBTQ ideals is a good thing and that loving them is Christ-like, but that does not mean that we should ever affirm or condone what God calls sin. The true "quieter middle ground" is to believe that we should love those who are tempted towards these sins, as toward any other sin, totally, and call them unconditionally to repent of them, while offering all the support, prayer and care that we can to them as they do so.
Why? Being gay is not a sin.
@@StudentDad-mc3pu What do you mean by "being gay"? Do you mean having attractions to members of the same sex, or having sexual relations with the same sex? The Bible does not recognize the new modern concepts of a sexual identity nor does it condemn the existence of attractions. It does categorically and absolutely condemn homosexual sexual relationships though.
An attraction is NOT sin. If so, Jesus sinned as he was attracted and had to be in order to be tempted. Where did Jesus address same-sex attraction is sin? Please show me where in the Gospels he condemns those who are same-sex attracted in permanently-committed, bonded through God in monogamous love? He could have, but he didn’t. Instead, he chose to warn against judging others.🤔✌🏼
@@TednGilbertAZ He did not condemn the existence of attractions as sin but he did condemn acting on those attractions. This means that those who are tempted, or attracted, towards committing sins have disordered desires that must be fought against in order to keep themselves from sinning, but the existence of the desire itself is not sinful.
The idea of those who are same-sex attracted living in "permanently-committed, bonded through God, monogamous love" is both sinful and incongruous though. It is sinful because Jesus affirms the old testament law, which condemns Homosexual acts (Matthew 5:17). He then adds to this his own positive definition of marriage in Mark 10: 6-10, where appeals directly to the creation account to firmly ground the purpose of marriage and sex itself. This passage and others make it clear that the only kind of marriage that God recognizes is monogamous and heterosexual.
In light of this, we should be very cautious about advocating for views that deviate from what the Bible clearly teaches, and what the church has believed for the entirety of its existence. Jesus' warnings in Matthew 18: 6-9 and 18-20 very clearly show that those who lead others into sin will be punished with terrible severity, and those who refuse to repent from their sin will be cast out of the church. In light of this we should exhort one another with love and truth, striving to assist one another so that no one might be lost to lies and temptations of any kind.
Every time I hear an evangelical speak on the subject of homosexuality, the word that stands out is “BUT.” “We Christians love you gays so much, BUT . . .” In my experience, evangelicals are so busy protecting God's holiness, that they don't reach out with love. Or to put it another way, evangelicals would rather run the risk of being judgmental, and unwelcoming than take a chance that someone - anyone - would think them guilty of being impious. I didn't attend the Unconditional Conference, but it seems to have emphasized God's love instead of God's holiness. I think maybe that's a good thing, though I'm sure many will disagree. Dr. Ortlund, I take your point about being careful not to sell a false bill of goods. But, will we draw people into the fold by showing them the hard edge of holiness? or by holding them in a warm embrace of love? How does a non-Christian apprehend the kindness of Jesus you spoke about so passionately in your closing if not through the uncritical (dare I say “unconditional”) love of a believer? We all have cultural blind spots? Without a doubt. But could the Stanley critics be the ones with the blind spot?
Please note the point(s) made regarding "loving" and how it is defined. Something we can be certain of is that never will God's Holiness "conflict" with His Love. It is certain that if we are "loving" another in that which is sinful/unholy before God, we are most assuredly not loving them. The way in which we reach out and are clear that we are "one beggar showing another where to get bread" and our hearts are soft in delivering "tough love" is certainly worth working through
@@toddcarll I'm not sure what you mean when you write, “It is certain that if we are 'loving' another in that which is sinful/unholy before God, we are most assuredly not loving them.” I guess the part which most confuses me is when you say, “loving another IN THAT WHICH IS unholy/sinful”? Does that mean that until gays/lesbians repent of their unholy/sinful behavior, they are unworthy of love? Or is it more of a love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin kind of deal where Christians ought to love gays and lesbians BUT hate that they are gay? If the latter, ought we to hate the fact that gays/lesbians have same sex attraction (i.e. it's the same sex attraction which is sinful/unholy) or only hate it if they have a gay or lesbian relationship? I'm also unclear about delivering tough love with a soft heart. Not sure what that would look like. You write that part is “worth working through,” so maybe you're not sure what that would look like either? I love the quote from Spurgeon! I had never heard it before. I wish I could see that evangelicals were living that quote, but I do not. I see judgment and a sense of moral superiority, especially where this issue of gays and lesbians are concerned - like one beggar is nicer, better dressed, and doesn't smell as bad. Thank you for taking time to share your thoughts!
This is good stuff Gavin. I have to admit the attack on church brought on by homosexuality is what had me start looking at the church fathers and start asking the question well what has the church always understood the teaching to be? This then however brought me to the realization that others teaching are inconsistent with my church tradition (southern Baptist) main one being the Eucharist. I feel as though Protestantism is having a hard time wrestling with textualism and originalism because we have to admit we also pick and choose teachings that different from how they were originally taught. We all need to seek the truth and submit to it humbly and pray the holy spirit guides us.
Praise God Brother. I'm thankful for the Lord leading me here as I've been blessed with knowledge each time I've had the opportunity to sit and watch one of your videos since I joined. I've heard several pastors with that "circle" view and its a very dangerous place to stand. Yes, compassion is a invaluable when trying to reach the lost, however, assuring people they'll spend eternity with the Lord regardless of their ways is anything but compassionate. I absolutely love and appreciate the way you share the Truth. Words of Wisdom and Knowledge are present.
Thank you for holding firm to scripture on this brother
Hey Gavin. Do you have any content on contraception? I recently watched one of McDowell‘s videos hosting a conversation about it and have been looking into Luther and Calvin’s thoughts on the issue. It seems like it could be a fairly big issue of unacknowledged sin and I wonder how you would triage it?
Gavin - thank you for being a great example for compassion AND firmness rooted in God's word. I have enjoyed your videos not only for excellent Biblical knowledge but also your approach. I can be more of a bull in a china shop when it comes to God's Word, but listening to you constantly helps me to reset my attitude....(sometimes many times). Can not thank you enough!!!
I'm interested in hearing the series on the sermon on the mount!
Excellent response to Mr. Stanley’s message. Thank God for men and women who will stand and articulate truth in such a profound and I would even say very palatable fashion.
Thanks for the excellent video Dr. Ortlund. I find Andy Stanley's language about drawing lines or drawing circles as too vague. What exactly does that mean?
When it comes to accepting people into our churches I think nearly all churches welcome everyone unconditionally to their public services. At the same time they would usually limit leadership positions to those not living in unrepentant sin and recognizing only the biblical definition of marriage. There is a need to be specific about these issues.
YOU: When it comes to accepting people into our churches I think nearly all churches welcome everyone unconditionally to their public services
*ME: And thats the problem. Believers gathering together (church) is for BELIEVERS (Acts 2:46-47), not people claiming to be believers but are living active sexually perverse lifestyles* (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc) -- *that is why the Apostle instructed the Congregation to remove any person living in open sexual sin -- because if they don't, the entire congregation will be corrupted -- 1Corinth 5* This applies to everyone, not just leadership.
Gavin you should put quotation marks on the title “marriage “ because it’s not marriage.
Hey Gavin, your heart and sensitivity to such challenging questions has meant everything to me. Your desire for Christian unity has been so refreshing as you seek to draw lines as widely as you can until you cannot any further, when so many Christians are drawing lines so prematurely and are genuinely ripping the body of Christ apart. I grew up Reformed (PCA), and sadly saw a lot uncharitably drawing lines in the sand, instead of deeply pursuing Christian unity until it wasn't possible any further.
Because of such agonizing doubt about this issue, I have sunk into a deep depression, where sometimes I feel it easier to just not keep going on any longer. My pain-staking inquiry is this... what do you do if you're just genuinely not sure about this issue? It appears far easier to remain opposed to homosexuality as I have all my life, but I feel a responsibility to genuinely seek what is true about this issue. I have always been opposed by default, and have read a decent amount of people's experiences in favor of my position. It's comfortable.
A couple of years ago I lost my best friend to an affirming lifestyle. That was very challenging. In moving towns, I acquired a new best friend, as we've just grown closely together organically, and he is now exploring/following the affirming lifestyle. As you can imagine, this has been heart-wrenching. After a crisis of faith I had a year ago , I saw it a responsiblity this time to genuinely explore this topic. ...and I feel so lost. I don't know what the truth is. Maybe it is because I am not smart enough. ...but I'm juggling back and forth reading a book from an affirming argument, then a non-affirming argument. ...and it's all so gray. The arguments from the original languages and/or context on either side seem equally compelling. There are things I'm not convinced about from the affirming position, such as "what marriage fundamentally is", and the roles of men and women (I'm slightly on the complementarian side).
But the challenge still remains, how do I question these thinks without being racked by fear? I'm afraid of being wrong as it seems like eternity is at stake. May God have mercy on me. You or anyone else's response or support is deeply appreciated.
@ben.misantone, Grace and peace in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ!
Rather than reading what other people say from various positions, you need to trust the Scriptures themselves. Start with Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:18-25. God made marriage as one man and one woman for a lifetime. Procreation, logically, was one of the mandates (Genesis 1:28, "Be fruitful and multiply"). That's impossible with same-sex relationships. They are unnatural and sinful, just as pre-marital sex, prostitution, and adultery are sinful sexual behaviors prohibited by Scripture. Re-listen to Gavin's section "The Witness of Scripture" starting at 19:29. It's very clear in the Scriptures. Don't trust your own experiences, don't trust any tradition you were raised in, instead trust Scripture and trust the Lord. Pray earnestly for God to reveal truth and give you strong conviction on this issue. May you be blessed by hearing and knowing God's voice through His Word.
Good, clear, loving truth. Thank you
Calling it a sermon is WAY too generous. I don't believe he referenced a single Biblical verse... as is his norm.
It is loving, truthful, and necessary, though sometimes painful, to have this conversation with people who are exploring the Christian faith. I regularly interact with college students who are professing Christians - it is almost more difficult to have these conversations with them. The ambiguity is confusing - they long to be loving toward their classmates and accepted, so there is great temptation to move toward the progressive ideas theologically because those voices argue that their position on sexual ethics is Biblical.
In the spring I gave a group of my students an introductory quiz in which they were asked if there was such a thing as objective truth - all 19 said no. 😳
We have Christians who don't have a biblical worldview. I think many do believe in objective truth but we're so bombarded with the idea of personal truth and authenticity. Certainly none of us has the market on objective truth (except God). I think that's why most don't want to say there's objective truth.
Thankful for you re these matters
Just found your channel definitely subscribing for more
Jesus drew circles? Was inclusive?
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household” (Matthew 10:34-36).
The line is unrepentant sin Mr. Stanley. This is the kind of rhetoric we hear from people who don't believe in inerrancy.
Stanley believe in inerrancy. He also believe in holiness, and loving people into truth.
I think the best comparison to SS Attraction is to replace "homosexual" with "fornicator". Both are sins without a victim. The only people directly harmed by it are the people engaged in the act. A trick progressives try to use is that by saying SSM is biblically forbidden, you are being exclusive and keeping people from sitting at the table with Jesus. However, if people tried to say that saying pre-marital sex is forbidden means you're keeping fornicators from sitting at the table with Jesus, we'd obviously see how acceptance of fornication doesn't follow from that reasoning.
You obviously didn’t watch Andy’s message. If you think someone that has same sex attraction (not acting on them) is a sin then I’m not sure what to tell you
@@1donknight I agree that mere same sex attraction isn't a sin, the same way opposite sex attraction isn't a sin. It's only sinful when it turns into lust or behavior, the same way extramarital sex works.
Excellent response - Thank you 👍
I know this is a bit of a non sequitur, but it occurred to me in reading through several early church fathers, and even up to Anselm, who Gavin mentions in this video, just how little they all refer to Mother Mary. Her position and veneration in Catholic and Orthodox traditions really is a modern invention. I'd encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ to seek out their wisdom. And, in all things, weigh their words against the holy scriptures. I think you'll find that not much has changed under the sun.
Nice Video! Speaking of western culture today, I think there is so much freedom that we may be blinded to the past and what God intended. Granted as a society, we still have sense of certain things that are wrong (rape, pedo, etc). I think the issue with same-sex marriage arrives as society seems to be more secular than the past, and trying to explain the dangers and issues to someone who doesn’t want to know Christ or have a preconceived notion about Him.
The first thing we learn about history is nobody learns from history. I recall a survey a few years ago that 25% of Protestants read the bible and 15% of Catholics. That may be a decade old now and I expect the number is even lower. The majority of people, let alone those claiming to be Christian, absolutely do not understand God's commands nor the reasons why he commands them.
There’s a difference between living with sin and living IN sin. If you continue to keep living in sin do you really love Jesus? Are you a new creation? Sexual sin is highlighted in the Bible specifically because it’s a sin against our own bodies,and our bodies don’t belong to us anymore,they were brought with a high price. And there was a reason Paul used and coined the word “arsenokoites”,people would do well to research into that and where it’s from. God Bless all 🙏
so helpful to clearly present biblical truth
When a preacher gives a monologue with lots of personal “wisdom” and opinion without any connection to scripture, this should be a sign to examine and re examine their teaching.
Wouldn't those in religious life as consecrated virgins be a witness to the fact that living a chaste life is indeed possible and bearable?
I know a few commenters may have aluded to it, but I am posting verses... 1Cor5:11-12 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler-not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
Thank you for your commentary! I would like to get the book on Anselm. Can you tell me the title of the copy you read from?
Great video Pastor. Glory to God
Hit it out of the park. Well done.
This is whats happening in these "circles". At the crux of it, prominent pastors are trying to find a way to be on both sides of this issue, in the name of "love", and "compassion". It's deceiving. I just don't see how it can be done. And in doing so all they do is sow confusion and doubt. See Fr James Martin, Pope Francis, etc as well. They just confuse, every time they open their mouths on this. They won't outright deny the Biblical Christian teaching on this topic, but they won't affirm it either. Trent Horn had a video on that a while back. Every time they open their mouths you just wonder. Then you have other Churches who are just silent on it. Like, they don't dare touch it. I think I understand why, but still. By not weighing in on this and intentionally avoiding it, you just further the confusion and doubt.
You really hit it on the head talking about repentant sin. All sin is wrong and misses the mark. And a truly convicted sinner seeking God has to hate his sin. Yes he's a sinner still, but since he's no longer defined by that sin, ("the old has past away.. the new has come"), he must hate that sin, all of it.
9:56 "..Come and see, come and sit with us". Come and see what? That some sin is fine to walk in? That some unrepentant sin is fine? I'm pretty sure God hates all of it. And therefore we should too. Our sexuality is a gift from God. It should be honored as such.
I think the issue is "sexuality" which has become an idol. God meant a man "knowing" a woman for the multiplication of our kind on the earth. And not for sport or entertainment, which is abuse and misuse.
I struggle with sexual sin more than almost anything else
Prayer and fasting.
Gavin great job. Always faithful
There is one critical job of a pastor..... the call to repentance.