This tragedy has a universal aura that trascends, the play itself represents Nietzches philosophy I think, I was reading twilight of the idols and came across a passage that said we humans reduce the unknowable to knowable like a defense mechanism, that whatever explanation is better than nothing, that is really similar to Oedipus anxiety to know the truth instead of not trying to search for it, and like another passage of Nietzches, you can know a mans measure with how much truth he can handle, in this case Odeipus cannot handle such truth and plucks his eyes out, also resembling that truth is always blind in a sense. My english is not the best hahaha, but philosphy trascends language I think in some way, great podcast man.
it is a great podcast, no doubt... but i disagree with your reasoning (how Nietzschean of me!!)... Oedipus was a heroic character (how could you not perceive this, sir stranger?!)... but he wasn't a complete libertine degenerate monster (not a Hitler, you see?!)... Sophocles was a truly great literary artist... know you no shame?!... therefore, i now spank myself most ardently in your sight...
I’m scared. I just read the play 3 days ago and now you are posting this. Some would say that this event was foretold by a prophecy. But we don’t believe in them, right?
16:41 would it be important to distinguish between knowledge and wisdom? I know this is even more complicated by the facts of translation and different Greek words having subtly different connotations of things that today in English we all refer to under the same term. It is clear Nietzsche argues that TRUTH, in the sense of factual or even conceptual apprehension of things in an epistemic or material way is not a universal good, and knowing too many facts about something can actually be antithetical to life because we need some Illusions in order to act. But I always understood wisdom to be something more. It is not just a knowledge of facts or even epistemic principles but a holistic understanding of something. There may be different levels - you could compare the broad wisdom of a Nestor to the wisdom of a tradesman within his craft. So that if someone had true wisdom about themselves or how to operate in the world would that not also include the realization that it is often times the wisest thing to limit one's knowledge, to keep oneself ignorant of certain facts or even, if possible, to re-enter into ignorance by forgetting things? As I understand it Oedipus's journey throughout the first play is entirely one of acquiring more knowledge but not necessarily more wisdom, he learns but he doesn't grow. He gains more and more of the objective facts of the scenario that happened, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is gaining a deeper understanding of the implicit mechanisms of the world or of his own mind and soul. Even him solving the riddle of the Sphinx is more a matter of cleverness than it is deep wisdom. I would even argue that there is nothing in the Greek tradition that argues against wisdom, as I am laying it out here, and it is almost always seen as a universal good, but there is definitely quite a lot that argues against the acquisition of excessive knowledge (or as we may think of it today trying to deconstruct things) and especially the hubris that comes when one thinks they have acquired so much knowledge that they are now better than they really are. Both things that I would also argue wisdom directly guards _against._ If wisdom is the wedding of knowledge and experience than can one really be said to have it if they haven't also had the experiences which teach them the limits and proper application of knowledge? The fact that Nietzsche calls this the "problem of science" seems to mean he very much would conceive of it this way, since the scientific process is almost antithetical to wisdom, reducing everything down to epistemic factuality - often using that very knowledg to dismiss or destroy other structures which are founded on wisdom but not obey that kind of pathological truth seeking. Whereas traditional wisdom almost goes in the opposite direction towards a kind of gnosis which doesn't outright dismiss the reality of fact finding, and in fact sees it as important, but also understands it only as a part of the whole. TL;DR would Nietzsche believe that you can even understand yourself too well? Curious on your thoughts, however brief.
Maybe edit in a tldr version for him first in the beginning? Like i read everything and i follow 95-99% but still it’s hard to determine all this was a question at first glance
Like i know you put a question first, but there was another question on the evaluation (not just differentiation) of knowledge and wisdom, and that one is easy to miss
@@nguyenquangminh4814 I edited to be a little more clear, and fixed a couple spelling and punctuation mistakes that may have been confusing, but I can't really take any parts out. Mr Keegan is a smart guy, I don't think he'll miss the question. Either he's interested in what I'm saying or he's not.
No, he is driven by circumstances into more and more knowledge out of which arises, by the awful grace of God, Wisdom. How can he know the alleged limits of such knowledge without the wisdom knowledge itself brings about? Its a bind - which is the very point of the drama. So your mistake is to presuppose the existence of wisdom prior to the knowledge that brings it (the wisdom) about.
the god of the bow, therefore the god of distace, and finally apollo is also the god of boundary lines" "purposeless necessity" i'm putting that in my conclusion work for university, machine learning of course. it is all about boundaries.
Sorry what is that word you use? “Hune” from a single stone? I’ve heard it so many times in other videos and i cant go without knowing how to write anymore. Thanks Btw i was listening to this at 12.30 a.m. and i can feel myself in Thebes suffering from the plague and in Athens debating with the locals as well. Thank you for this surreal trip that makes me wonder what it’s like to be raised by the ancient greeks
Hmmm,,, enduring suffering, in the end, if the subject pursues the truth, no matter the obstacles- - whether they be overt&covert threats of violence (Kauai ‘24), mockery&gaslighting (Lihue Airport&my evil woman ex roommate&others in My Home Neighborhood), punishments (14 days in the loony bin in ‘23- - 3.5 hellish day/nights/constant sleepless freeze in the downtown jail on False Charges- ex roommate, again), lead to a break Through in both mood/intellect//musical skill///(I am not Miles, but- - let’s just say that playing boring scales from ‘93 to ‘05 is suddenly paying Dividends). wow. you don’t say. that’s what I call a “no shit Agatha Christy 👣👣👣👣👣
While the host certainly has a gift for intelligent and engaging verbal musings, his underlying technocratic and rational materialist underpinnings (consistent with his modern cultural conditioning) are repeatedly laid bare in the shallowness of certain accepted premises. The repeated position that Greek tragedy is primarily functioning as a means for audience "catharsis" is an offensively shallow proxy in the absence of any philosophical basis or literary analysis of substance (to be fair, the same sort of superficial "categorizing" that Aristotle displayed when he had no real understanding or inquiry of a subject). Bored housewives also obtain "catharsis" from daytime soap operas. Greek tragedy has a more timeless and consistent underpinning than some empty hand-waving about "catharsis." Understanding this requires greater contemplation of the transcendental question and escaping our modern utopian vanities.
This is a Nietzsche channel, I’m very familiar with the criticism that Aristotle is incorrect to call tragedy a catharsis (Nietzsche makes the same criticism). The point was not to give my opinion, but to explain why Aristotle would consider tragedy a great dramatic form.
@@untimelyreflections Thank you - and first and foremost, I regard your expositions as head and shoulders above (and far more original than) the majority of celebrated philosophy professors speaking in large-audience classes, which is why I listen to you enough to have high expectations. Plato’s student was such an over-rated catalog author and politician, compared to Plato himself, but he knew how to suck up to power. Thank you for clarifying that this repeated terminology is not your viewpoint.
Oedipus wasn't cruel enough, he should have killed jocasta as well why did he only kill the man, he could have taken someone else, not to mention why does he even blind himself, it's pointless drama that shows the infantile nature of that age
@@spitbukket6862this is not necessarily a contradiction. I think you are well aware that "infantile" merely means something or someone that is immature or has a low resolution understanding of the world, not someone that is literally an innocent little baby. It is a word with clear negative connotations implying all of the ignorance of extreme youth but not implying any of the innocence. If OP he had said Oedipus was "childlike" that might be a different thing.
This tragedy has a universal aura that trascends, the play itself represents Nietzches philosophy I think, I was reading twilight of the idols and came across a passage that said we humans reduce the unknowable to knowable like a defense mechanism, that whatever explanation is better than nothing, that is really similar to Oedipus anxiety to know the truth instead of not trying to search for it, and like another passage of Nietzches, you can know a mans measure with how much truth he can handle, in this case Odeipus cannot handle such truth and plucks his eyes out, also resembling that truth is always blind in a sense. My english is not the best hahaha, but philosphy trascends language I think in some way, great podcast man.
it is a great podcast, no doubt... but i disagree with your reasoning (how Nietzschean of me!!)... Oedipus was a heroic character (how could you not perceive this, sir stranger?!)... but he wasn't a complete libertine degenerate monster (not a Hitler, you see?!)... Sophocles was a truly great literary artist... know you no shame?!... therefore, i now spank myself most ardently in your sight...
Nietzsche also said the absolute will to truth is a subtle will to nothingness. “Those Greeks stopped at the surface, out of profundity!”
Also isn’t Oedipus’ unflinching will to truth his downfall?
Also his plucking his eyes out is more of a tyrannical will to power that tyrannies himself
God I love when this guy posts
lololo... indeed... when N.P.G. (Nietzsche Podcast Guy) posts... it is well with my soul!!... it is well...
This is pure distilled gold.
I’m scared. I just read the play 3 days ago and now you are posting this. Some would say that this event was foretold by a prophecy. But we don’t believe in them, right?
you know who else didn't believe in prophecies?
Me too, i don't believe in prophecies and i was raised as a "William Marion Branham-ite".
Super determined universe simulator
This happens to me almost everyday on UA-cam with some video or another... thank The Algorithm.
Happens all the time. We notice only when functional.
Best channel on youtube!!!!
Great video and analysis.
Thank you 🙏
Good stuff, I've had these plays sitting on my shelf for a few years this has inspired me to actually read them!
Thank you for your work, love it.
OEDIPUS Explained - Top Ten details YOU missed!!!!!!
Great!
Thank you.
16:41 would it be important to distinguish between knowledge and wisdom?
I know this is even more complicated by the facts of translation and different Greek words having subtly different connotations of things that today in English we all refer to under the same term.
It is clear Nietzsche argues that TRUTH, in the sense of factual or even conceptual apprehension of things in an epistemic or material way is not a universal good, and knowing too many facts about something can actually be antithetical to life because we need some Illusions in order to act. But I always understood wisdom to be something more. It is not just a knowledge of facts or even epistemic principles but a holistic understanding of something. There may be different levels - you could compare the broad wisdom of a Nestor to the wisdom of a tradesman within his craft.
So that if someone had true wisdom about themselves or how to operate in the world would that not also include the realization that it is often times the wisest thing to limit one's knowledge, to keep oneself ignorant of certain facts or even, if possible, to re-enter into ignorance by forgetting things?
As I understand it Oedipus's journey throughout the first play is entirely one of acquiring more knowledge but not necessarily more wisdom, he learns but he doesn't grow. He gains more and more of the objective facts of the scenario that happened, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is gaining a deeper understanding of the implicit mechanisms of the world or of his own mind and soul. Even him solving the riddle of the Sphinx is more a matter of cleverness than it is deep wisdom.
I would even argue that there is nothing in the Greek tradition that argues against wisdom, as I am laying it out here, and it is almost always seen as a universal good, but there is definitely quite a lot that argues against the acquisition of excessive knowledge (or as we may think of it today trying to deconstruct things) and especially the hubris that comes when one thinks they have acquired so much knowledge that they are now better than they really are. Both things that I would also argue wisdom directly guards _against._
If wisdom is the wedding of knowledge and experience than can one really be said to have it if they haven't also had the experiences which teach them the limits and proper application of knowledge?
The fact that Nietzsche calls this the "problem of science" seems to mean he very much would conceive of it this way, since the scientific process is almost antithetical to wisdom, reducing everything down to epistemic factuality - often using that very knowledg to dismiss or destroy other structures which are founded on wisdom but not obey that kind of pathological truth seeking. Whereas traditional wisdom almost goes in the opposite direction towards a kind of gnosis which doesn't outright dismiss the reality of fact finding, and in fact sees it as important, but also understands it only as a part of the whole.
TL;DR would Nietzsche believe that you can even understand yourself too well?
Curious on your thoughts, however brief.
Maybe edit in a tldr version for him first in the beginning? Like i read everything and i follow 95-99% but still it’s hard to determine all this was a question at first glance
Like i know you put a question first, but there was another question on the evaluation (not just differentiation) of knowledge and wisdom, and that one is easy to miss
@@nguyenquangminh4814 I edited to be a little more clear, and fixed a couple spelling and punctuation mistakes that may have been confusing, but I can't really take any parts out. Mr Keegan is a smart guy, I don't think he'll miss the question. Either he's interested in what I'm saying or he's not.
No, he is driven by circumstances into more and more knowledge out of which arises, by the awful grace of God, Wisdom.
How can he know the alleged limits of such knowledge without the wisdom knowledge itself brings about? Its a bind - which is the very point of the drama.
So your mistake is to presuppose the existence of wisdom prior to the knowledge that brings it (the wisdom) about.
the god of the bow, therefore the god of distace, and finally apollo is also the god of boundary lines"
"purposeless necessity"
i'm putting that in my conclusion work for university, machine learning of course. it is all about boundaries.
which play won first place?
I know, right?
The great poet George Lucas. “Revenge of the Sith” Analkin sees he future. He tries to prevent it….
Sorry what is that word you use? “Hune” from a single stone? I’ve heard it so many times in other videos and i cant go without knowing how to write anymore. Thanks
Btw i was listening to this at 12.30 a.m. and i can feel myself in Thebes suffering from the plague and in Athens debating with the locals as well. Thank you for this surreal trip that makes me wonder what it’s like to be raised by the ancient greeks
"Hewn" make or shape (something) by cutting or chopping a material such as wood or stone.
Bro a convo between u and jonathan pageau would be great
Wo, man -- your script writer should win an Academy Award. Virtually another Shakespeare.
The original MF
Were the parents at fault for attempting to let him perish or the shepperd for not following the order?
I notice they often use "God" in the singular instead of the plural "godS", is this a translation thing?
God is zeus
💪💪💪💪
Brown Melissa Lewis Kenneth White Kevin
Lewis Michelle Johnson Sarah Young Helen
Hmmm,,, enduring suffering, in the end, if the subject pursues the truth, no matter the obstacles- - whether they be overt&covert threats of violence (Kauai ‘24), mockery&gaslighting (Lihue Airport&my evil woman ex roommate&others in My Home Neighborhood), punishments (14 days in the loony bin in ‘23- - 3.5 hellish day/nights/constant sleepless freeze in the downtown jail on False Charges- ex roommate, again), lead to a break Through in both mood/intellect//musical skill///(I am not Miles, but- - let’s just say that playing boring scales from ‘93 to ‘05 is suddenly paying Dividends). wow. you don’t say. that’s what I call a “no shit Agatha Christy 👣👣👣👣👣
While the host certainly has a gift for intelligent and engaging verbal musings, his underlying technocratic and rational materialist underpinnings (consistent with his modern cultural conditioning) are repeatedly laid bare in the shallowness of certain accepted premises. The repeated position that Greek tragedy is primarily functioning as a means for audience "catharsis" is an offensively shallow proxy in the absence of any philosophical basis or literary analysis of substance (to be fair, the same sort of superficial "categorizing" that Aristotle displayed when he had no real understanding or inquiry of a subject). Bored housewives also obtain "catharsis" from daytime soap operas. Greek tragedy has a more timeless and consistent underpinning than some empty hand-waving about "catharsis." Understanding this requires greater contemplation of the transcendental question and escaping our modern utopian vanities.
This is a Nietzsche channel, I’m very familiar with the criticism that Aristotle is incorrect to call tragedy a catharsis (Nietzsche makes the same criticism). The point was not to give my opinion, but to explain why Aristotle would consider tragedy a great dramatic form.
@@untimelyreflections Thank you - and first and foremost, I regard your expositions as head and shoulders above (and far more original than) the majority of celebrated philosophy professors speaking in large-audience classes, which is why I listen to you enough to have high expectations. Plato’s student was such an over-rated catalog author and politician, compared to Plato himself, but he knew how to suck up to power. Thank you for clarifying that this repeated terminology is not your viewpoint.
Oedipus wasn't cruel enough, he should have killed jocasta as well why did he only kill the man, he could have taken someone else, not to mention why does he even blind himself, it's pointless drama that shows the infantile nature of that age
You say he wasn’t cruel enough and in the same breath demonise his ‘infantile nature’?
An infant is not cruel, it's innocent any harm it causes is just natural tinkering, obviously you would not want that to get out of hand
He cuts out his eyes cause it’s hard af
@@spitbukket6862this is not necessarily a contradiction. I think you are well aware that "infantile" merely means something or someone that is immature or has a low resolution understanding of the world, not someone that is literally an innocent little baby. It is a word with clear negative connotations implying all of the ignorance of extreme youth but not implying any of the innocence.
If OP he had said Oedipus was "childlike" that might be a different thing.
Brother please stop commenting at least until you learn how to stop being either corny or dim
At 39:05 cue *curb theme*