'The Book of Abraham vs. the CES Letter!' - FACT CHECK
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- Опубліковано 8 жов 2024
- A response to the video "The Book of Abraham vs. the CES Letter!" which seeks to discredit the CES letter on the topic of The Book of Abraham
Jeremy's Letter
cesletter.org/
Jeremy's Rebuttal of FAIR Mormon
cesletter.org/...
Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language 1835
www.josephsmit...
Book of Abraham, 1842
www.churchofje...
Kevin Mathie Article
web.archive.or...
Dr Robert Ritner Interview with John Dehlin and RFM
• Dr. Robert Ritner - An...
Dr Robert Ritner Rebuttal of LDS Church Essay
oi.uchicago.ed...
Olishem
faenrandir.git...
Kerry Muhlstein
www.deseret.co...
The original video is included under 'Fair Use' law for the purpose of critique.
#AncientEgypt #Apologetics #FairMormon
Thanks for focusing on the claims and not being distracted by the showmanship aspects of the videos.
I also appreciate the fact he provides links/references. It's not as easy to critique video essays for this reason. What's absurd to me is the apologist defending something that looks like chicanery when prophecy would have been an easier argument. The reasonable prophet would have simply said, "Bear in mind I do not translate but I have been given yet another garden of eden account with more Abraham from this time" in these circumstances, not "I am translating and it's now up to my members to prove how I might be correct and interpolate all the doctrine around this to keep my credentials for me". IOW, this is all because of an unreasonable level of clarity/high need for mysticism one would not expect of a reasoned, logical prophet. Instead we have these wishy washy hoops to jump through and the simple explanation seems deceptive not inspiring. To say Joseph translated these and it's correct was the original viewpoint he allowed to spread. What kind of leader does that?
Why did Joseph pay so much for the papyrus if he technically didn't even need it? Why didn't he just look into a potato and receive the translation?
Great question!
Great observation! The “lord” so powerful doesn’t need any prop. What if this man Chandler have sold his merchandise to somewhere else?
Excellent point. Joseph had a seer stone. He needed nothing else.
@@salt1956 the seer stone was to distract from the notes he had hidden inside the hat.
And why did he allow a misunderstanding of his ability, if this was something besides translation to become the knowledge of the time?
I find it hilarious that their channel has turned off dislikes and comments. I couldn’t imagine why
Exactly because most of those views are ex Mormon!
I think Fair Mormon in only starting to understand how much these empty-headed videos undermine their own credibility as a serious apologetics organization.
Thank you again, Nemo for a clear commentary of a frankly embarrassing presentation by these 2 boys. If I were church leadership I would have these 2 closed down because they are, quite frankly, making the church look not only amateurish but entirely non-credible.
Gamakly Wilson my pleasure! Feel free to let me know if there is any other church media you want fact checked!
Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube''.
Eleanor, the Church did eventually have all the videos taken down. They were doing far more harm than good.
It comes across as propagandistic as a Prager U video. I mean, you can hear that pitch and tone in their rehearsed presentation.
So... it appears FairMormon took all those videos down? I guess it's pretty clear how this debate ended.
Every ad hominem they used against the Egyptologists can describe Brigham Young. Man, these guys are bad at their jobs.
Well done again. It's telling how brief their videos are and how dense they are with things that need further time and research to do justice.
Your presentation of the information is clear, evenly explained, on point, and interesting enough to listen to even without a smattering of jokes.
I would say that when you comment as they are talking, the sound level of the source video is louder than you are, so I can't always make out what you are saying.
Thanks again for the time you put into this.
Tyson Hoffman Thanks for the feedback! I’m working on my software set up, next one will be better hopefully!
The Egyptologists were debunked in 2014. Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong.
No wonder these boys think they torched the letter. They build the biggest, tallest straw man in existence and use a flame thrower to burn down the idea of the letter they’ve created in their own heads.
It's honestly the wickerman of strawmen!
It hurts us precious
Brilliant! It’s so big the Burning Man Festival could last for a whole year!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Are you going to admit the Egyptologists have been debunked?
A friend of my fathers was sitting in a restaurant many years ago and hearing the discussion in the table behind him speak of how the book of Abraham is not true and what they needed to do to get rid of it. When they stood up and left he noticed one of the people that sat in that table was a member of the first presidency Hugh B Brown!!! They have known for a long time but don’t know how to walk it back!
Whoa, I really wish there was a recording of that!
I have already informed NEMO that Joseph Smith was right, the arrogant Egyptologists were wrong. Paul Gregersen clearly covers this on his videos.
So, because Kevin Mathie cannot provide the original Egyptian drawings. It means his interpretation is flawed. If we applied that same argument to the book of Mormon, then it must also be suspect, as no one can produce the original “reformed Egyptian” text. It goes both ways.
Indeed it does!
Why does the LDS church use these minions instead of putting the churches experts on camera?
I have no idea! They say these are some of there most successful videos too!
They are a form of confirmation biases for the devout members.
@Greghunter. Better THESE
FOOLS look like fools than the
others risk more exposure.
Their "proof" reminds me of The Music Man, where the charlatan sings "Trouble, that starts with T and that rhymes with P and that stands for Pool!"
Mormon stories has proven how far off JS was in long interview with Dr. Ritter. Worth watching!
I've seen it, it was very good!
The Egyptologists were debunked in 2014.
I literally had to stop watching this video. These guys are soooo INFURIATING! Love your work Nemo but can't handle looking at these idiots and yes they are idiots.
I've had this feedback quite a bit, I found it very difficult too watch also, but my desire to put the record straight pushed me through!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON You are more patient than me🙂
@Fotomadsen. X 93 million.
My gag-reflex can't last just glancing at the silenced screen.
To those who can, thanks for supporting our Clark Kent.
21:41 _"This is god we're talking about here, right? So if he wanted Joseph Smith to translate a ramen noodle packet, it'd be fine. The Book of Abraham would still be true."_
This is still a self defeating argument (as is all apologetic arguments for the authenticity of the BoA in my opinion). It still remains the case that God approves of revealing scripture (or anything really) through deceptive and dishonest means. Whether it would have been a ramen noodle packet or the papyrus in Joseph's possession, Joseph still believed he had the literal, original record in his possession and was producing an inter-lingual translation, be it with divine aid or not.
And god allowed this misunderstanding to spread all throughout the membership of the church, _and leadership alike._ And instead of clearing up this theologically condemning belief, he let his church deal with the mass fallout in the early 21st century because of this alleged misunderstanding. And even more to my point, he said _nothing_ to the leadership of the church as to what actually happened all those years ago with regards to the origin of the BoA, but instead let the church's "scholars" and apologists come up with _contortionist_ arguments in order to try to square what is _clearly and obviously_ the case about its origins with it being actual scripture.
If there ever was an issue in the church that god had an obligation to set right, this would be it! But because he has done nothing, he is solely responsible for the apostasy of tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of former members of the church. This is akin to criminal negligence on his part.
And to those who would say god's not responsible because people "have their agency", I say that it doesn't take neglecting the spread of such a theologically condemning belief in order for people to exercise their agency in choosing to remain a member of the church. It doesn't take _these kinds of condemning divine gaffs_ in order to try the faith of the church members.
The fact of the matter is that all the church's truth claims cannot be simultaneously true. Either the BoA is an authentic record, and god is not who he says he is since he brought it about through deceptive means and let misinformation spread with no attempt to correct it, or the BoA is not an authentic record and god had no hand in its fabrication which would preserve his moral character. Of course, this is granting the assumption that the LDS god exists.
But Holland himself has admitted it wasn’t a direct translation.
Yep, he went full catalyst in that timeless interview with John Sweeney!
I like how they disregard someone's opinion on egyptology because they were racist, yet worship the teachings of men who were even more racist...
I really don't miss being raised in a cult.
Yes, but their racism was ordained by God, so it wasn't an issue.
@@AtticusLaineBlos Be quiet pretender.
The videos are almost painful to watch. They talk to their audience like they are idiots.
It wasn't easy to sit through i'll give you that!!!
Thank you for calling out the deceptive statements that were made! Every time I was about to start yelling at my tablet, you clicked pause and said it! This was great. These arrogant clowns need to be called out on their dishonest, un-Christlike, and pathetic attempt to defend the giant lie of Joseph Smith which we call "The Book of Abraham".
Just the Facts Thanks my friend!
The Egyptologists were debunked in 2014.
@@richardholmes7199 The church admitted they were correct in 2013, and the essay hasn’t been changed as of yet.
@@justthefacts9796 Lie much?
@@richardholmes7199 A personal attack now. So typical. You can read the Gospel Topics Essay on the church’s website for yourself. It admits the papyrus doesn’t match what’s in the Book of Abraham which is exactly what the Egyptologists say. You accuse me of lying. That’s ironic since you are defending an organization that used to call certain facts “anti-Mormon lies” and now calls those very same facts church history. The false narrative I was raised on in the 70s and 80s has been brought out of the darkness and into the light. And people can accuse me of whatever makes them feel better, but I know who the real liars are. They are the leaders of the billion dollar corporation that tried to coerce and manipulate me with false and incomplete information.
I grew up in the church being taught that the Book of Abraham was a translation of from the papyrus. Why has this changed now?
"We got through this together"
The only way. I hope you get a little catharsis from reading the comments after enduring these videos. Great video, thanks for being on the level!
Thank you, and thank you for watching!
Did they take down the original video after you posted this rebuttal? I can’t seem to find it anywhere.
What I love about this series is how angry the fair mormon guys sound and how calm Nemo always is, like isn't it supposed to be us so-called "anti-mormons" who are the angry ones while the mormons are just perfectly unemotional? Guess that's not actually how it always works, go figure :P
Thanks, I will do my best to continue to remain calm!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON It is hard sometimes haha XD
Thank you fairmormon for confirming my doubts.
A summary of the mormon position:
Some of the words Smith used to describe the papyri could sound like real world names.
But only if you CHANGE the vowel sounds, and give or take a syllable from them.
(We'll ignore the fact that the words Smith used had nothing to do with the papyri in the first place.)
The words were never never supposed to have anything to do with the papyri. This is what debunked the Egyptologists. Paul Gregersen has clearly demonstrated this. I have informed you of this.
Why would the content of the papyrus matter if he didn’t even use the damn plates?? Did he use the rock/hat combo for the papyrus too?
I like how Kwaku says that JS referred to himself as one of the "weak things of the world." Like, didn't Joe ordain himself the literal king of the planet?...
I called it when they posted their first video. They were going to remove the videos because they were so bad
the top of the first page says: "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
so, the first and most obvious problem with the book of abraham is: how was abraham suppose to have written in heiroglyphics that existed 2000 years after his death?
mormons have to preform unworldly mental gymnastics to think the phrase "written by his own hand upon papyrus" does not refer to the papyrus the church owns.
they are so lost.
I love these guys, they are revolting to the honest seekers of truth inside LDS. I applaud their work in crating x-mormons.
I try patiently to listen to these Fair Mormon spokesmen (btw they will need to change their name since, according to Nelson, by using Mormon they are deeply offending Christ) but I find them so wearing. Attempts at humour are, frankly, embarrassing. They confuse noise and hype with reason. They think that speed of delivery and piling up stuff before you can think about it is more important than calm rationality. But they do prove one thing: that in debate you can argue for anything however flimsy, or empty headed. And if all else fails fall back on personal invective. Fair? Perhaps that adjective is more offensive to Christ than the noun it is describing. If Holland claims no ability to understand the means of production of the Book of Abraham from funerary document to Abrahamic narrative (despite his claim to talk to God directly) then FM lads would be wise to back off!
Spot on! Cheers!
those fair Mormon videos are just... the worst. So embarrassing and cringe worthy. Thanks for making these.
Racist 😂😂😂 let’s quote Brigham a little!
Exactly what I said! 🤣
🤣y'all FUNNY
These BOYS aren’t helping the Church out one bit.. Very poor salesmanship. They need to repent and cancel there channel. Thank you Nemo for sifting through there B. S. and making a factual video.
Factual?
FAIR was instructed and did pull the videos down.
Thank you for your research and correction on these claims!
You’re welcome!
NEMO needs to update his video. NEMO knows full well that Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologists.
Dan Vogel pointed out that most of the information about Abraham and Egypt in the Book of Abraham was found in sources like Adam Clarke's Bible commentary and Jewish myths about Abraham that would have been available for Smith at the time. The name Elkanah is mentioned in Clarke's commentary, which Smith read and draws from. Even if Smith got something right, it was information already availible to his contemporaries.
Thanks for making these. It's so insidious that they make these videos which *appear* to thoroughly discredit evidence against Mormonism's faulty truth claims, but are themselves actually riddled with bad logic and intellectual dishonesty.
Leaving the church its nice to finally use facts instead of going off feelings
Why are you yelling , Kwaku?
So when a tablet has a similar name, is proof of copying, but entire portions of the 1769 KJV, including errors, are copied into the book of Mormon is just a coincidence.
Biased much‽
Quite the double standard!
The historical, linguistic and philosophical illiteracy of this video is shocking. Massive Respec'for calmly demolishing it, moronic half-truth by unreasoned non-sequitur.
In the "Polygamy is OK actually" video these clowns did, they whined that "Presentism" was being used to speak out against polygamy of Mormon founders and prophets. "It's like hating Abraham Lincoln because he would've opposed gay marriage!" was their argument. Except that they use Presentism to discredit the Egyptologists they call "Nazis." A lot of scientists were, unfortunately, Eugenicists during the early 20th century, but that doesn't mean their work wasn't of value in the fields of genetics and evolution.
It’s so telling that they start off their video by stating that it doesn’t matter what the papyrus says and then proceed to spend an entire video trying to defend it.
Hahaha! Exactly!
Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists back in 2014.
"he correctly guessed". Awesome. Didn't he translate it? Very different than guessing.
The same logic they use to discredit Mathy could be applied to JSJr.
Indeed, funny that....
Ward radio is a sad sad show. They don't even realize how pathetic they look when trying to rationalize the church's factual, historical problems.
It's a shame the Fair Mormon videos aren't more popular. The work they do is immeasurable.
Let's hope I can bring them a bit more publicity!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON The tits videos are frustrating. As an LDS member seeking enlightenment, they are hardly intelligible to me. Quite telling.
@@wardified8566 It is telling! The last thing we need as members dealing with these difficult things is muddying of the waters.
Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube''. A video DEBUNKING the LIES from NEMO.
So even though it may not be the same Kevin Mathey as the piano player as you say, do you have a better lead on who he is and what his qualifications are?
The truth about the BofA is what led me out of the church. Thank goodness! Their argument about which papyri was used during the translation, are irrelevant. The church has the images in the BofA, that are used, those by themselves are wrong, and prove the translations to be false.
Thank you for your work!!!
My pleasure!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON may I ask, where you are in the UK?
There is no defending the book of Abraham and the agreements against it is hilarious
I used to like Kwaku but videos like this make it hard
Once again, kwaku makes a total fool of himself with his ridiculous bullying tactics. If I were not an avowed pacifist I would be overwhelming tempted to slap him back under the rock from which all dorks emerge
it's funny that El is Elohim. That means that Mormon God wants virgin human sacrifices?
Have you seen Year One?
I doubt Kwaku is a virgin, even if he says he is.
The most important thing that happens when you leave the church is that you no longer experience cognitive dissonance. When you're a member it happens at least twice a week, minimum
Say I ask 100 Christians to draw a nativity scene for use in a religious service. I will see a variety of different styles based on each artist's skill. Likewise I would expect to see certain elements, like a baby in a manger. Other elements may be less common but not out of place (e.g. shepherds, a star, etc.) There would even be room for certain random elements that still fit into a nativity scene like, say, an innkeeper or a little drummer boy.
Now, say I tear those pictures in half, can I reasonably guess what the torn areas contain? Sure! More importantly, however, I can tell you what they wouldn't contain. I wouldn't see, for instance Buddha sitting under a Bodhi Tree, Thor channeling lightning, or Luke Skywalker lifting rocks. These would never be found in a nativity scene drawn by a devotee for religious purposes.
Facsimile 1 is known as a Lion Couch scene. It was drawn by a professional clergyman for religious purposes. It would be a very common scene in Egyptian religion. Just like my nativity scenes, variations of lion couch scenes exist among the artists and certain elements can be added or altered. There are, however, things that would never be in a lion couch scene. The spaces where the papyrus was filled in by Smith contain elements as out of place in a lion couch scene as Captain America would be in a nativity scene. Moreover, the text of the Book of Abraham does not work if those forged areas were filled in with the expected lion head imagery.
What is your response to the reality of the Egyptologists being debunked?
@@richardholmes7199 there is no such reality. There are precisely zero peer reviewed papers in any scientific journal defending the Smith translation.
@@radiofreeutah5328 Mormonism (Jesus Christ) is spiritual. Spiritual things must needs be understood spiritually, not scientifically. Joseph Smith translated in reverse back to a biblical text, the original. This is proper interpretation. Whereas you're assuming the arrogant Egyptologist interpretation is correct. The stupidity of the Egyptologist interpretation is the assumption that LDS scripture, in order to be true, is supposed to match up with that of Egyptian mythology.
@@radiofreeutah5328 Therefore, how could Joseph Smith's translation/revelation have been translated correctly if it matched up with Egyptian mythology (fake idols)?
@@richardholmes7199 got to appreciate a god who goes out of his way to cover his tracks.
Does the church pay for saints unscripted? A budget was mentioned
Most likely through a middle man for plausible deniability
Kuaku and friends are like a bad "Saturday Night Live" Skit.
These guys need a course in basic information literacy!
Quack-ew and his side kicks are clowns... they are mean spirited (cause thats how Jesus would act) and they make the church look bad... its embaressing...
Just sayen
I see Kwaku and team: Egypt, Canaan, Syria, turkey all had interchangeable pantheons and no particular care about the general spelling or pronunciation of those deity names.
Anything close enough across hundreds of miles and a thousand year spread is good enough!
I love this! Thanks to Andrew Gold.
Growing up in the church, my parents always told me about how their friend who was a scholar of Hebrew and Egyptology found part of the book of Abraham in the papyrus by doing something like reading it out loud in Egyptian and spelling it phoneticly in Hebrew...
I am glad that I can apply a little logic to it now and know that it that was true then he would have told the church about it and it would be used in defense of the book of Abraham.
Thanks for exposing their weak attempt to cast unfounded FUD on the letter. You rightly called out various points of unfairness in their critique. Simply put though, we know these boys have roots in very biased apologetics and it will do just about anything persuasive, logical/sourced or not to fly. As far as ad hominems go, there is so much of that Nazi stuff that bites both ways isn't there? Not really the best point for them to bring up.
For the pianist bit, I almost think we need a new fallacy name for that. Pointing out another discipline to discount any expertise in another is a flavor of ad hominem/auctoritate we could call Argumentum ab auctoritate menorae or something. The counter is that many experts are multidisciplinary, have hobbies with crtiqieu being over-emphasis on authority in general.
Hard to watch the BYU Garbage. Thanks to you Nemo you did!
What do virgins have to do with "A story about sexuality"? Seems like a story about virgins is the exact opposite of a story about sexuality...
18:06 the citation says 2103 instead of 2013
Nice spot!
I believe in being kind to people, but I have to smile at your freezing the upload
and leaving the presenters with dumb expressions on their faces.
You know damned well that Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist assessments against Joseph Smith by presenting proper interpretation. Joseph Smith was right, the arrogant Egyptologists were wrong.
Where does it state that Joseph Smith's explanation/revelation was supposed to concur with the translation from that of the Egyptologists?
God that video is annoying
Isn't the overwhelming consensus among historians that Abraham is a fictional character?
Honestly couldn't tell you, but if you have some sources i'd love to see them!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON The Old Testament between theology and history, by Niels Peter Lemche. But he is a (extreme) minimalist of the Copenhagen type.
The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman. They are mainstream.
But my impression is that everyone but the fundamentalists agree that he is fictional.
you lost credibility at 1:09. done with this video.
I lost credibility when I pointed out that Kwaku was making a straw man argument? You're not going to enjoy the rest of my videos much either then, nor find them credible if I'm honest, as they're full of moments where I expose fallacious arguments. Cheers for watching all the same!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON if you have a problem at 1:09....it's like you are truly trying to be cognitively unaware.