****SUNSTONE UK 2021 - 27 MARCH**** I'm so excited to be speaking at Sunstone, and so you don't miss it, you can catch it at the following link: facebook.com/groups/143828186747679/
@@julianpetersen43 When an individual makes truth claims , it's not up to others to prove that it's false, it's up to the individual making such claims to back it with factual evidence. Such evidence is lacking regarding Book of Mormon truth claims.
@@richardholmes7199Richard.. Paul Gregersen's so called "debunking" videos I find are a rather confusing cauldron of Gregersens opinion. His "evidence" is severely flawed and goes on to claim a victory over "anti - Mormon liars". If any individual has to descend to ad hominem to endorse their own opinion as Gregersen does then he has no credibility.
I left the LDS Church 20+ years ago. I recently have been following your channel. I viewed your life story on Mormon Stories. Your attention to detail and your ability to hold the LDS accountable is admirable. You are helping many people. Thank you!
Interesting I have been a Mormon for 77years read most anti Mormon writings. That have been proved wrong. But please carry on because your blogs actually help us to convert THOUSANDS DAILY. Once they hear your rubbish and then hear the truth they convert. There are a lot of Evangelical and😮 Baptist pastor's who advise people to read the book of Mormon. You have just strengthened my testimony again of Mormonism (The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saint's) Thanks for helping us grow.
Nemo is spinning his wheels, but going nowhere. Meanwhile, the Restored Gospel is moving forward all over the world. Every time we turn around, a new temple is going up. More new members are coming in. Yes, there are some members drifting away. It’s meant to be that way. There’s a sifting going on. That’s why there’s three degrees of Glory, and it seems Nemo is helping some to go for the distant star (telestial).
A ton of research? He just copied the talking points that have been regurgitated over the last 100+ years and some over the last 20 years. Same old tired arguments. I would suggested you do your own research versus nemos very flawed so called research. Once you have done the research and you feel you got what you needed, then take your quest to the Lord, the true source of truth.
The following (from 4 Nephi 1:6) is an example of the profound and concisely expressed thoughts in the BOM. This example shows why it would be SO hard to produce so much similar quality writing in just 65 days: 'And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away.'
Were I a pre-Colombian Prophet lugging around 150 lb of Golden plates, and sat for a moment to read when I was carrying, THAT verse would be particularly upsetting.
Such an amazingly clear logician, I love your content, they give me a better idea of how to defend my beliefs against my parents (: so concise and historically accurate !
my comment, that is seriously overlooked by most people, is that no one ever mentions the eerie canal and it's influence on the book of mormon and mormonism. the eerie canal was completed in 1825. the year it opened up more goods were transported through to new york city than through new orleans. the eerie canal connected cleveland ohio to new york city and all points in between. besides tons of goods, all the new ideas associated with frontier living were distributed. you can at least see the connection readily enough with joseph smith's new church popping up over night in kirland, ohio and his close association with sidney rigdon. the mormon church purposely downplays the importance of the eerie canal, and never mentions it, even though palmyra is on the banks of the eerie canal. what does it all have to do with the book of mormon and mormonism? the book of mormon was undoubtedly influenced by other books published about the same time. another good example of frontier influence is jacob cochran. Jacob Cochran (also Cochrane, 1782-1836) was a non-denominational preacher born in Enfield, New Hampshire, United States who founded the Cochranites in Saco, Maine. Cochranite worship is said to have resembled Shakerism, but which also practiced a new doctrine called spiritual wifery. Cochranism may have influenced the Mormon doctrines of plural marriage and the United Order, as well as the free love practice called complex marriage once favored by the Oneida Community. Cochran also was working towards a communal order where everything was held in common. it is myopic to think that joseph smith was not heavily influenced by other frontier thinking, and the eerie canal connected him to all points east and west. another point about joseph smith's geography is that it follows the great lakes geography as the vern holley map shows. the narrow neck of land between two seas referred to in the b/m fits lake eerie and lake ontario very nicely.
Great work again. Keep it up. You nailed it from the start: This is not about whether I could write a book, it's about whether Smith could write the book. It is such a patent and flimsy attempt to shift the burden of proof. The entire argument can be undermined by simply admitting Smith had a talent I don't have--that doesn't mean God is the only possibility. Beethoven composed his 9th Symphony (arguably one of the most transcendental pieces of music ever written) while almost entirely deaf. Does that mean the Ode to Joy is scripture, or that Beethoven was amazingly talented?
Cheers! There are so many examples of people doing things I never could, are they all divine? In a nutshell this is the major flaw in most apologetics in this area.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I'd say that the BoM is beyond the scope of what has been produced by any other fiction writer in history, by a long, long way. That's why I would use this type of argument. Many people I talk to say that it isn't actually that complicated, but anyone who studies it knows that it is. I don't buy that JS was simply a genius storyteller because no others of his caliber produced anything remotely close to the BoM if it is fiction. And I mean there is no work of fiction within a mile of being in striking distance of what the BoM contains and does. Critics of the BoM engage only with certain types of criticism of the BoM (anachronisms, comparisons to works of JS day, changes, etc). They don't engage on the whole with the narrative and themes. And most of what I've seen they wave away any defense that is made, insinuating that it is biased and thus not acceptable. The BoM gets a lot of thing astonishingly correct, and there is never any response from critics in those cases. Critics accuse us of putting our hands over our eyes and going "la la la" to any criticism, but it's more true for critics of the BoM from what I've seen. You accuse, we answer, you don't like the answer and ignore it.
@@markstenquist2315 What, exactly, does the BoM get "astonishingly correct"? My partner and I have written FAR MORE text that reads far cleaner than the first-pass BoM by far. The BoM isn't particularly impressive, especially not when you look at how long JS had to work on the story before writing it down. But yes, my original question: Like what?
One part of the bible that I love is how history shows it true and I try and read up on all knew discoveries. I was elated to study the dead sea scrolls found in Qumran which showed beyond any doubt that the old testament had not been corrupted as 1 Nephi chapter 13 said: "the loss of many plain and precious parts of the bible" had occurred. This is why Nephi said there was the need for "the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture". 1 Nephi 13: 26 says "after .. the twelve apostles of the Lamb, ... the formation of that great and abominable church, ... for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious". The notes at the bottom say Nephi made this prophesy between 600 and 592 B.C. Then 1 Nephi 13:30 says: "because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel ... Satan hath great power over them". Then, 1 Nephi 14:3 says because of this "the devil... lead away the souls of men down to hell". But the dead sea scrolls proved this prophecy is false as the scrolls found in cave 1 show that the old testament we have is not corrupted like Nephi said. And the other caves have proven this also with more books of the old testament. Jesus said he was the "word" of God and was one with the Father (not a previous humanoid) as a false prophet would say. God bless you.
Nemo, your videos are such high quality. I’m surprised that you don’t have more subscribers at this point. I now watch these videos as the balance to sacrament meeting every Sunday.
@@richardholmes7199 one question: what are this guy’s qualifications and why do you think he knows more about Egyptian than people who study it for a living?
The funny thing about the idea behind "How Can It Not Be True?" is the assumption that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. Isn't it also just as likely that he collaborated with other individual[s] in the production of the book (and it's content) and that the real "fiction" (besides the book itself) is the story they concocted about how he miraculously "translated" it from Golden Plates which he found buried? His co-conspirators being Martin Harris, Oliver Cowardly and Sidney Rigdon.
Bingo. That's actually the premise I've held to. Joseph Smith had collaborators/cohorts from the onset of his religious meanderings and pursuit of establishing a religion with the emergence of holy scripture as a premise.
One part of the bible that I love is how history shows it true and I try and read up on all knew discoveries. I was elated to study the dead sea scrolls found in Qumran which showed beyond any doubt that the old testament had not been corrupted as 1 Nephi chapter 13 said: "the loss of many plain and precious parts of the bible" had occurred. This is why Nephi said there was the need for "the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture". 1 Nephi 13: 26 says "after .. the twelve apostles of the Lamb, ... the formation of that great and abominable church, ... for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious". The notes at the bottom say Nephi made this prophesy between 600 and 592 B.C. Then 1 Nephi 13:30 says: "because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel ... Satan hath great power over them". Then, 1 Nephi 14:3 says because of this "the devil... lead away the souls of men down to hell". But the dead sea scrolls proved this prophecy is false as the scrolls found in cave 1 show that the old testament we have is not corrupted like Nephi said. And the other caves have proven this also with more books of the old testament. Jesus said he was the "word" of God and was one with the Father (not a previous humanoid) as a false prophet would say. God bless you.
Neither the dead sea scrolls nor the current version of the Bible address doctrines in the clarity of the BOM. Where is the Christian understanding of the Gathering of Israel and restoration of all things? Many covenants and teachings about resurrection, baptism, etc., are missing also.
You forgot that we feel it's true so there's the witness that it's true.. Ps....so, I stop getting respones on my comment...I was adding to the original comment that the church through missionaries and members, once you to go by your feelings...ie feels good means its true... I wasn't saying that I was suggesting it!
@@user-bw3fl7fj9w Feelings don't cut it my friend, often they can be subjective. Great for drawing out emotional conclusion due to them being part of our human construct. But lousy if we allow our feelings to rule us and lead us to thinking that our feelings are an excellent substitute for facts.
@@user-bw3fl7fj9w I suppose you'd be OK being on trial for a serious crime, and the jury makes their guilty or not guilty not based on evidence, but rather what they feel. How in any way are feelings a reliable way to determine the truth?
Once I gave myself permission to begin true investigation of the church last year, I was very quickly validated in questions I’d had over the years as a practicing member. For example the correlated aspect of the BOM translation narrative that JS translates in a very brief time period. There was always a red clad here for me. I thought “Actually, if he created the book, he had several years.” Thank you Nemo for being a rational voice that helps validate, I’m certain many who have reasonable doubts about the Mormon church.
A rational voice, really. I guess it's rational to those that want to be validated so one does not have to live up to Christ standards. Your basing the truth of the BoM off of what nemo says? Well good luck with knowing anything is true. Have fun with living with YOUR truth.
There are problem you may find difficult. Significant evidence is abundantly available and is continuing to be uncovered that prove what is said in the BOM is supported by physical evidence from back east excavations. Additionally, native Americans have traditions passed down generation to generation that support the odd claims of the BOM. The local and federal governments have PILES of evidence supporting the BOM. However, they claim it is all fakes and refuse to allow it to be tested for authenticity. That in and of itself answers the authenticity test, or they wouldn't need to cover it up and lie about it.
One part of the bible that I love is how history shows it true and I try and read up on all knew discoveries. I was elated to study the dead sea scrolls found in Qumran which showed beyond any doubt that the old testament had not been corrupted as 1 Nephi chapter 13 said: "the loss of many plain and precious parts of the bible" had occurred. This is why Nephi said there was the need for "the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture". 1 Nephi 13: 26 says "after .. the twelve apostles of the Lamb, ... the formation of that great and abominable church, ... for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious". The notes at the bottom say Nephi made this prophesy between 600 and 592 B.C. Then 1 Nephi 13:30 says: "because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel ... Satan hath great power over them". Then, 1 Nephi 14:3 says because of this "the devil... lead away the souls of men down to hell". But the dead sea scrolls proved this prophecy is false as the scrolls found in cave 1 show that the old testament we have is not corrupted like Nephi said. And the other caves have proven this also with more books of the old testament. Jesus said he was the "word" of God and was one with the Father (not a previous humanoid) as a false prophet would say. God bless you.
It bothers me so much when they say that the only changes in the Book of Mormon errors when I was on my mission a hundred years ago I bought a copy of the first edition of course not the original... and I had the Book of Mormon on cassette oh, yep that's how long ago was and I followed the Book of Mormon being read from The Book of Mormon we were using and 1978 word for word. There are many many mistakes and that whole paragraphs that have been removed or added
Woooooow. This reminds me of the saying "if all your friends would jump off a cliff, would you?". Just because a lot of people do something, doesn't mean that that thing is worthwhile. The lies shock and sadden me as well. To think that the church is still doing this is absolutely shameless.
This bit of apologetics comes from a the book "The Book of Mormon on trial" by John W. Rich, written in 1970. A summarized version of it has been popular among missionaries for many years. There are many more lies in the book, but many current readers take it at face value.
Okay let's break this down. Full disclosure, I am LDS, I definitely have a clear motive here, but it of course doesn't change the facts I'm going to argue. With that out of the way, let's get into it. 0:50 The point is not that we're putting undue expectation on someone who doesn't have the skill necessary to write the book of mormon, the point is that NO ONE has the skill necessary, especially a farm boy from the 1820's who had little education and was frequently described as borderline illiterate. 1:10 He starts criticizing the artistic visuals of the video. What purpose does this serve? it doesn't address any claims actually made in the video. It's simple jeering and cheap point scoring. I wouldn't have mentioned it if it was just an offhand comment, but he goes on for over a minute on this point. I guess it's just there to prime the audience into believing that everything in the video is inaccurate and that he's able to refute it all? 2:30 I was confused until I realized that he meant "ancient structures" when he said "ancient scriptures", and was just continuing on from the last point. Regardless, the claim made here is that there is a lack of geographical evidence for the book of mormon. (I presume he's referring to the new world in particular.) This is simply untrue. Here are some videos on the evidence: ua-cam.com/video/0eg71RR2zP8/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/lSV68oZ3e0o/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/CLWcsxuHEtI/v-deo.html 2:55 Because we know that he didn't have any. Many of the people closest to Joseph (including his wife, mother, and scribes) wrote in their own personal diaries that he couldn't have possibly used any source material, and that he didn't read much anyway, and we know that he never visited the local library either. He dictated the whole thing blindfolded anyway, so he would've had to memorize the information anyway. Regardless, none of the alledged sources would have been available to him anyway, he's out in the backwoods of New York, and again never visited a library. Again, some videos that go more in depth on the topic: ua-cam.com/video/pnkrQOEhuHA/v-deo.html (this one is a more formal version of the video being reacted to here) www.jefflindsay.com/oneday.shtml (a more comedic take on the subject) 3:10 if you want to be more precise: 273,725 words. As an author myself that has written 60k word book from scratch in three weeks, 275k in two months is a gargantuan task. The average page is between 250 and 500 words depending on double or single space. So the equivalent is 531 to over a thousand pages. And by the way, double space is more standard for non-scripture books, so look more towards the high end of that. The guy in the video admits that the original edition was 60 pages longer after all. He does mention the word count eventually, (By the way, Brian Hales, the guy he cites for the word count, has written multiple studies arguing in favor of the book of mormon.) but that's not including the first 116 pages that just got deleted, which would put the whole dictation process at about 325k words, well over 300k, even if you take out the 14k that was taken up by Isaiah. And let's be clear, these passages weren't just copy pasted in. Joseph recited all 21 chapters blindfolded, and his scribe copied down what he wrote by hand. There's no functional difference between Isaiah and the original content. If you want to take the challenge and insist on being allowed to memorize and recite 14k words of pre-existing content, then by all means we'll spare you that. You'd still never come close to the book of mormon. Finally he tries saying that the word count is inflated because quantity is not quality. And I agree, the book of mormon has complexity surpassing Tolkien's works, it's certainly high quality. But raw quantity is important as well because he have to recite every last word, I don't care if you repeat phrases as often as Green Eggs and Ham does, 300k words is still 300k words. 5:40 I've read the verses he's talking about, the differences are slight and do not force a different interpretation. The point being expressed in the video is that the original edition didn't contain any punctuation at all. Thousands of commas had to be added to be prepared for print, (mostly because Joseph and Oliver didn't know how grammar works) and you can't majorly rewrite sections. Again, as an author, the vast majority of writing is rewriting Regardless, this point is pretty unimportant when trying to establish the truthfullness of the book of mormon, if you can't match the monumental task of creating a complex book of scripture that is a complete finished product in both the 1st and 2nd edition. 6:10 except those styles aren't what's being taken into account. The styles in question are the very clear differences between the styles of the book of mormon authors, particularly Nephi, Alma, Mormon, and Moroni. Even if you take things like Matthew into account (He's referring to Christ's visit to the America's where he gives altered versions of the sermon on the mount and other parables.) you would still have to commend Joseph on his ability to seamlessly replicate those styles, despite not being direct quotations. And even when you do quote things, your own voice still bleeds through if you're dictating from memory. Here are studies and videos on the topic: knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/is-it-possible-that-a-single-author-wrote-the-book-of-mormon ua-cam.com/video/l8-fpaNA78c/v-deo.html journal.interpreterfoundation.org/comparing-book-of-mormon-names-with-those-found-in-j-r-r-tolkiens-works-an-exploratory-study/ rationalfaiths.com/book-of-mormon-stylometry-in-pictures-and-tables/ bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/watch-five-evidences-for-book-of-mormon-names?fbclid=IwAR3L5rUTYALstdOc8vFmG3Q8QCfft8wtw4bA2gt0e6t61vZblB95UuUqi7Y bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/watch-evidence-of-the-book-of-mormon-internal-complexity
continued: 6:30 Yes it does. Need I link more evidence? Let's do the Old world this time: bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/watch-compelling-book-of-mormon-evidence-for-lehi-s-journey-through-arabia ua-cam.com/video/tB8-rVAdPug/v-deo.html 6:35 The hill in New York is simply named after the hill described in the book of mormon. And I've seen no quote from Joseph saying they are the same hill, I'm afraid Joseph Fielding Smith is simply mistaken. All it takes is to actually read the book of mormon to see this is the case. The final battle takes place on the original hill Cumorah, the hill with all the records. Moroni then takes the gold plates away from Cumorah--as his father instructed on his deathbed--and flees from the lamanites hunting him, and wanders in the wilderness for decades before finally burying the plates in New York. The geographical description given in the book of mormon is also entirely different from the New York hill. You would think that Joseph could do so little as keep his made up geography consistent with the geography of his own backyard, and yet he doesn't, and even mistakes the hill in New York for the hill Cumorah, a mistake that could have only possibly been made if Joseph WASN'T the author. Here's a video about evidence of Cumorah: ua-cam.com/video/9-hk7RsqoU8/v-deo.html 8:45 No it doesn't make those claims. The geographical details in the book of mormon clearly indicate that it covers a very small area. I think the longest travel time included is about a month of traveling, and that's just because they got lost. Definitely not the amount of time that would be required if it covered all of the Americas, and all the peoples across the two whole continents. 8:50 Being kept from other nations means that they wouldn't be conquered by other nations. In fact many sociologists believe that the reason why the Indians were so far less advanced than the Europeans is because North America was so large that if conflict ever arose, the groups would just flee to the plentiful amounts of open area available, meaning that they became nomadic, and never had the need to innovate because they were backed into a corner because they were too busy migrating. This is also why some of the most advanced civilizations were in mesoamerica which was a much smaller area, which had a culture of warfare. This is all mirrored in the book of mormon. Even if you want to take the stance that there would only be civilizations that were sent by God, and none that discovered it by secular means, you still have to remember that the America's are massive. There could be 100 such nations, and there would still be enough space to have 100s of miles of separation between them. All that's necessary for this verse to be accurate is for there to be a relatively undeveloped (not necessarily uninhabited) 200ish sq mile area. And if you read between the lines of the book of mormon, there is ample evidence of other pre-existing people that they encountered upon arriving in the Americas. 9:35 the issue isn't that the intellectuals are mormon. The point is that they're mormon because they're intellectuals. Stop dancing around the elephant in the room. You simply cannot accept the book of mormon as a historical record without also believing the religious claims surrounding it. The two positions are inseparable. The fact that there are intellectuals that have a factual basis for their faith in the LDS church at all is the astounding feat of the book of mormon. I notice that he doesn't dare put into question the credibility of the scholars, only implies it by stating they're mormon, because if he were to actually confront the credentials of these experts, he would have to concede the point that they are indeed very credible in their fields and that their research is very factual. This is nothing but Bulverism. 9:45 I'll address his claim about the lack of DNA evidence here. The sample we are trying to detect out of the population of Native Americans, comes out to about 5 unique genomes (Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, and his wife) among the thousands of other Native Americas that they intermarried with. You could also include the Mulekites in this, but we don't know how many of them there were at first. So the descendants of five people among a million from over 2,500 years ago. Despite this, we actually have found some DNA evidence. Particularly pre-columbian plants that have DNA that hails from the Arabian Peninsula, which absolutely baffled researchers when they first found it. Again, here's a video on the topic: ua-cam.com/video/eb1fDCU7DiM/v-deo.html 9:55 I presume the 85 days includes the 116 pages not included in the book of mormon that were just thrown out. If you're so insistent on being precise, then I have no qualms with changing the rules of the challenge as laid out in this video. You get an extra 20 days, but must write write an additional 116 pages, which are then to be given to a friend out of your sight. You must then continue from where you left off and then once you've finished the book, must return and rewrite the beginning from the perspective of another character, and still remain consistent with the pages you gave to your friend, who will be present and remember what the original beginning said. As for Joseph thinking the story up before he got the plates, this doesn't hold up as Joseph is reported as being surprised at certain passages when they come up. For example he was surprised that Jerusalem had walls, the process of baptism described, and was brought to tears by the passage on infant baptism, seeing as his own son had died during childbirth. Even still, if I were to grant you this point, Joseph would only have the general story in his head, and none of it written down. And the video said you must WRITE the book in 65 days. Obviously we can't stop you from utilizing pre-existing ideas while writing your "record." And besides, the book of mormon definitely doesn't seem like the kind of story that someone would come up with as a child and developed as they grew up anyway. The idea that Joseph told his mother stories isn't as impressive as the fact that these stories turned out to be archeologically accurate to criteria we wouldn't even know to measure the book of mormon against until over a hundred years after being published. Also the idea that it would go by quicker because he orally dictated it is silly. They don't have text to speech you know. Every time Joseph said a phrase, he had to wait for Oliver Cowdery to write it down, and then double check that he got it right. Clearly it would be much faster for Oliver Cowdery to simply write it on his without having to wait for Joseph to talk inbetween writing sentences. If you don't believe me, try "writing" a simple letter by orally dictating it to a scribe. After you've gone through all the umms and long pauses while you try to figure out what to say next, then you can tell me it wouldn't have been many times faster to simply write in down yourself. You assume that it's faster because you imagine a professional stenographer copying down Joseph's words as he speaks fluently as if he's reading a book out loud. In reality, it's one verse at a time while Joseph has his face in a hat. 10:35 Or it's just pointing out the fact that since people volunteer two years of life for the sake of spreading it's message, that there must be something to it, and that whatever book you could create under these conditions would have to produce the same zeal and conviction in its readers. It's not so much an appeal to popularity as it saying that the book the viewer creates is required to end up being similarily popular. And it's not really an appeal to popularity anyway. People tend to dislike the missionaries and being a mormon is in no way popular or commonplace, so saying that the video is trying to get people to jump on the band wagon is plain silly. Any social capital is only gained while among other mormons, and not until after the mission is completed. During the actual 2 year time period, the missionaries are under incredible stress motivating them to not be mormon because of the bad encounters they have with naysayers everyday. 11:10 no lack of archeological evidence, especially considering what you would expect given the amount of knowledge we have on the topics being discussed. It's incredible actually how much evidence we do have with how little we know about ancient mesoamerica, especially compared to our wealth of knowledge of the old world. 11:25 Not as tightly constrained? You've provided no evidence to back up this claim. The most you've said is that it was 85 days instead of 65, and that Joseph told his mother stories. Even disregarding the rest, I'd like to see someone write any 300k word book in 85 days, the discipline required to accomplish such a task even without the other restrictions is almost inhuman.
conclusion: 11:30 You're right. And no matter how much you think the book is the false, that doesn't make it so either. And honestly, you haven't put your money where your mouth is, you haven't put any skin in the game. You just sit and poke holes from a safe distance without offering any alternative explanation about how it's possible for the book of mormon to even exist. Even throughout this video, you flip flop between the a prior assumptions that Joseph translated the book the way he claimed he did, and the assumption that he faked the translation process. What's your null hypothesis here? Are you doing an internal critique, or providing an alternative view? The whole point of this video is to show how ridiculous the atheist position that Joseph Smith came up with the book on his own is, and how it would be impossible to reproduce it given the parameters. Your hypothesis can't be demonstrated, the results are not reproduceable. You're like someone saying that Einstein's theories can't be correct because you're able to point out ways it doesn't fit within your quantum physics model. The fact of the book of mormon's existence doesn't need to change in order to fit your preconceived notions, you need to manage your assumptions to stay in line with the historical facts. The book exists, you can't refute that. Provide your own explanation, or shut up.
It really bothers me when member says that it only took a few months for him to translate The Book of Mormon. He had to return annually for 4 years until Moroni supposedly allowed him to take the plate. So let's say he started thinking about the Book of Mormon four years before he started he had that much time to be writing the whole time.
There's evidence of Proto drafts of the bom as well and many pieces of the material mbom if you get it down for it's true original Short sources come from its own family experience is like a dream of a tree which came from his dad in 1811 I think.
@@richardholmes7199 what word print studies ? The studies of the boo. Prove you wrong way wring here you spewed agaisnt me but only turns back and hits you only. Proves you wrong far more than double wrong. The "chiasmus" theory has been torn apart and doesn't exist in the fraud bom and another problem is that 1800 material contains modern day "chiasmus" and refutes your position. Google bom is fraud dummy where Google works dummy and lost soul for hell. Repent
Good job on this one Nemo. I was a bit amused though by your observation that beyond those who get a paycheck from BYU, the number of academics and intellectuals who support the veracity of the BofM diminishes considerably. Quite an understatement. In fact the number is virtually zero.
But only a Sith deals in absolutes ;) on a serious note I don’t know for certain that no intellectuals unpaid by the church support the veracity, and it’s a great way to get egg on my face when someone pulls out one guy somewhere!
@@iceguy9723 John could do way better is he just sat there with his googoo eyes glistening and not said a word while the people he interviews tell their story
On archeology...about a year ago, I came across the British show Time Team. As an American, I had no clue this existed, but I’ve been watching as many episodes as I can since then. They are on UA-cam so it’s easy to find here in the States. But in it, they come across Roman slag heaps and smelting kilns constantly! In fact, it’s one way they know it’s a Roman culture. And yet, there is hardly archeology in the American continents showing metallurgy took place. There is a little evidence of something in Peru where it’s more a jewelry type of thing, but not enough to have chariots, swords and other weapons. The Book of Mormon fails at each and every turn!
What makes it worse but the idea about Advanced is to monolithically simplistic it's not that simple and actually has several different routes and alien ways of advanced advanced comes in three to four different ways at least or almost most and one way we say advances by the Western Middle Eastern European and North African World by what we know or what's dominant which is where the book of moron came from is a fanfiction Luffy fanfiction up in a colonialist mindset. We look at the far alien forms of advanced civilization and high-tech different worlds like the Americas or Asia Africa recently see something far different of sophisticated something that we never knew about it because of the dominant white world we find far different advancements that are completely alien to anything that was claimed by the morons or anyting judeo-christian Colonial like the cold relies upon and can't live without in fact is so ingrained into it they're separated is to destroy it. Cool gets worse than that the very fact of anything Advanced by native people now he doesn't support it way way refuted Tom and morons even further they have to twist things even have a stand which they can't cuz that makes them even more dishonest they have no station how do you want to slice it or or spin it more on his arm loses every single time no matter how it wants to play the Utah staff so-called church or cult has no leg to stand on at all that's why I have to keep on changing and changing and then with the newer Generations denying it what they originally were for and what they're about even existed they throw their so-called pro(fit)"phet" smith and others under the bus all to conform to outside world that has grown toooo far above them now though this is not to say that they were above Joseph Cult of moron ism 200 years ago and less. But true restoration of christianity by evangelicals and such and revealing natives own history and stories 2000 years ago more and more less that way over refutes and contradicts moronism verbatim point by point as well as simple common sense destroys smith.
I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was correct when He said, "do not cast Pearl's before swine", meaning "do not throw valuable information to those who will never appreciate or understand it". There is nothing anyone with intelligence can ever say to faithful mormons to change their mind about the greatest fraud ever perpetrated against mankind----Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Mormons will reject any information that is derogatory towards the church, even though everyone outside the church is laughing at them for their insane beliefs. Jehova Witnesses are also a cult, but their members are mainly uneducated, ignorant people, who mostly have grammar school education. Mormons, however, are mainly professional, highly educated people, like doctors, school teachers, lawyers, etc., that should know better, yet they are duped, even worse than Jehova Witnesses.
BoM talks of chariots in Israel, not in BoM times. Common mistake coming from anti's talking points. Study heartland and other BoM archeology, you will be quite surprised by what is known.
I wrote my first book, 52,000 word novel, in 17 days. No fillers or copied passages like the Book of Mormon. It was pretty grueling, but I was also working 40 hours a week in this process. I didn’t do any research, and I based it on my surroundings. Multiply that by five, and you have the Book of Mormon. Honestly, it’s not at all unrealistic that Joseph created this story, especially given that he used sources in his time period to aid in its creation.
its also the content of the book. multiplying by 5 IS A LOT. also to bring forth an entire history of a people with little to no contradictions historically is a whole different level. With these civilizations add in their foods materials...heritages ..etc... basically lord of the rings in 60-80 days. it took LOR years to finish. you guys gotta stop acting like this could be done.
You absolutely no nothing of what you are talking about. Do your research on the history of the boy Joseph that discovered the plates. Was barely educated
@@kaylumhendrickse4644 you know, I’ve done a lot of research on Joseph Smith. For example, I know he claimed the papyrus contained a history written by the hand of Abraham that he translated into the Book of Abraham, but that Egyptologists have completely debunked it. In fact, it’s not even from the same century. So, I already know he’s capable of fabricating scriptural text in a way people find convincing. If we add to that things like him marrying a 14 year old girl or inciting a riot to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor for exposing his practices of polygamy and polyandry (which is what he was killed for), it seems obvious that he was a fraud. And when we look at the church, the fruits of his labor, and we see the harm and the damage it does all while enriching itself, it’s evident none of it is true.
@@AndOrMaybeSure historical speaking in the BOM there is VERY little contradictions.. Even if there are historical issues its not huge, 600+ pages of a historical account is extremely intense. grammar errors are worthless for your point here. You are literally saying that a man with crappy education can produce a book like Lord of the rings in 3 -4 months. Im not even Mormon, but people like you are so quick to toss aside the reality of how things are. You literally compared your book to the Book of Mormon. it is very UNREALISTIC to think what you did was even anywhere remotely close to what JS did. keep it 100
@@richardholmes7199 From Paul Gregersen - "You will see things get much much better when I reveal the LDS church being true from within an ancient mathematical code unveiled straight from the Bible itself. Its coordination process passing through centuries of connected time lines. We will unveil a predesigned prophetic system explaining precise mathematical prophecies to the world for the first time. Its perfect alignment will prove so incredibly accurate within its mathematically measured time line that it will stun all critics into shock and a terrible silence. Its perfect connections spanning over thousands of years from the past to present so amazingly that the odds of any accidental coincidences will become greater than infinity. The time line will strike the 1830 restoration of the LDS church 12 separate times on the Bibles sequence of prophetic links. It will do this in such a convincing way that any tricked manipulation will be absolutely impossible to happen by chance. No computer on earth could have devised it. That is what is coming and you won't like it. When it is unveiled the press is now ready to be notified by designated people . Get your smartest critics lined up because this is going to hit within the next few months very hard and sudden." Is this guy the leader of QAnon?? After digging a bit, I’m unsure your point or how this is relevant, until he publishes his BoA stuff in the peer-reviewed academic Egyptological literature nobody will take this serious.
@@trevorper Egyptological literature? Do you seriously believe Joseph Smith's translation/revelation was supposed to match up with that of Egyptian mythology in order to have been translated correctly?
@@richardholmes7199 What I seriously believe is that Joseph had no translation or revelatory power and he made it all up. Occam’s Razor. Much easier explanation.
I dont really understand your point in this video showing skepticism of the Book of Mormon going together with your still being a member of the church. If the Book of Mormon isn't true then the church is invalid, so why would you stay a member if you think the Book of Mormon isn't true? This is a real question.
Excellent work, my friend. Bringing facts to a faith fight might not always have the impact we'd like, but it's still important to sow as many seeds as possible.
Great points like always! Everytime I see a new archaeological discovery on my news feed it reminds me of the glaring lack of evidence that is archaeological evidence for the book of Mormon. I also find it amazing that they would state that there's archaeological evidence for the book, a complete lie. Congrats on Sunstone, I'm looking forward to it.
Cheers! I feel the same way, especially living in Britain, where we are finding Roman things all the time, and having spent most of my childhood walking around ancient things. I can't believe I never twigged that if this ancient Roman Bath-house is still around, where is the Book of Mormon Archaeology?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON dont you think it is a bit confusing for viewers of your channel to see you agreeing with people who shun your cult even though you said in your about page that you are a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints?
It might be, but then I think it really just shows I’m a complex person with complex beliefs like everyone else. Being a member doesn’t mean I don’t see issues with the church, I think my channel makes that very clear! And just because some of those issues are shared by those who have chosen to strongly denounce the church as a cult is no reflection on my ability to remain a member and see these issues. Hope that clarifies, cheers for your comment!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON dont get me wrong, I like the unbiased approach you take on things, but it just seemed a bit weird to me since you yourself are a latter day saint. Honestly these videos are leading me away from the church a lot more then they are bringing me to it. Just an idea, try responding to a video attacking mormonism and defend . You might get a lot less views and more dislikes though. But anyways how do you reconcile your belief in all these issues that the church, so much so that you said the prophet was lying to kids, with your belief that this is the true church? If a muslim said muhammad lied they would be denounced as a heretic instantly.
really glad you went over this cause if I saw this shit I'd lose my cool, I'm impressed that you can stay so calm discussing their maniupulative bullshit
@@NEMOTHEMORMON honestly same though like sometimes it just hits you again, like the enormity of lies you believed, and its like holy shit this was my life
10:35 I have discovered how the church is "True". Soon the word "True" will even be redefined as not in the literal sense but get enough people...l like 4 or 5 million and it's "True!"
There are plenty of examples of people writing a book in 85 days in fact November is national novel writing month a challenge to write a book in one month and many people have been able to do. I am not sure the length but 85 days is more than enough time to write a book
One thing you should mention about the Bible quotes in the book of Mormon that they include the italicized words that the 1623 translators added from the original text to make it read smoother in English. So having a plagiarism from this King James Bible only proves that it's not in fact in ancient document but a plagiarism of King James English biblical quotations
All the young missionaries going out is, to me, a real testament to the amazing power of social pressure. To begin with, most of them have spent their entire mortal existence in a culture that constantly pummels them with the singular message of absolute truth, and they also grow up in a culture where their continued social acceptance is conditioned not only on their proclamation of that professed truth, but that they also demonstrate that with rituals, ordinances, activity, and obligatory "service" as missionaries.
The Sundance is a sacred ceremony of indigenous people of the North American continent. There are 12 poles used in the Sundance corral representing the original 12 disciples. How on earth would my people have this ancient knowledge without Christ coming to the American continent 🤔
I like your work, Nemo. Quick thought experiment, if incontrovertible proof of the BOM’s historicity were unearthed, what would that actually change in the the way the faith is practiced? For me the most significant breakdown is the leap to blind faith in a leadership beyond reproach, especially in that the promise of divine intervention on doctrinal “misleading” is not well founded or supported by observed history whatsoever.
Whether you believe the church or its truthfulness. One thing that is undeniably and undoubtedly correct is that the principles and morals that are instilled are by far the greatest. From a less active LDS 🇿🇦
"One thing that is undeniably and undoubtedly correct..." According to who? By what demonstrable measure? What a ridiculously unqualified assertion. Let me guess, you are certain because you prayed and got that warm fuzzy feeling, right?
But still trinitarian how do you want to splice it moron ISM from its start to finish is a lie goes from bad to far worse like every year Smith would contradict himself or the new fake non-existent Revelation is in a revelation at all in the least you can buy a two-year-old he was a let Rebel liar and a fraud and a Satanist his entire life received so many it was because of back then he got away with it was today he would be it would have been shot jailed and killed within five years of his life of doing this s*** the same thing is true of Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist and scientologists.
I think the person making them is just doing what they are told. This video in particular is just music text and stock video. May have been given to a PR intern? The Church media department under the supervision of the leaders of the church is ultimately responsible. And the church leaders definitely know some of the things in this video are untrue!
I just have to say, from the last four years of nonsense here in the USA, people are easily duped by CGI. Make it realistic enough and many people have a terrible time knowing the difference between what is real and what is not...surprised?
Much of your video is filed with incorrect interpretations but you are clearly nor a believer and perhaps have an axe to grind with the Church. I would love to address many of your assumptions but this comment format is not the place. You should know by now that the veracity of the BOM does not come by proving the authenticity of plates, the relationship of the 8 and 3 witnesses, or anything else of that nature. It is revealed to those who approach the subject and God with a sincere and humble heart - the holy ghost will reveal the truth of it into you. Further, 'most correct book' refers to most correct doctrine, not the actual translation which has been edited (most of it for clarity although some of it, as you mentioned, to clarify doctrine). There were also two sets of plates.
Enjoyed your comments about a contemporary clip from LDS, Inc. Had me chuckling loud as I remember the very same arguments were used over 50 years ago in my high school seminary experience. Back then I was an avid reader and when these points were given about days of writing, number of words, creating new vocabularies, etc. I thought sitting their in class, wait a minute, Edgar Rice Burroughs created an entire civilization and culture on Mars, Frank Herbert created the Dune series, J. R. R. Tolkien created the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. There was nothing unique about what Joseph Smith claimed to have done and shame on LDS, Inc. suggesting so. As you stated there is no more archeological proof of the Book of Mormon than there is proof of a civilization on Mars.
@@isaacconder9901The trinity concept is like a 2 in shampoo kind of idea: both entities are actually the same entity. The Godhead is a team work concept: multiple individual beings with the same purpose.
When you spoke about the "timeframe" of 65 days for the writing of the BofM, you left out the 9 months afterwards they had for editing and revising before the actual first publication.
Love this video. Nemo you are the bomb. I was so annoyed when my uncle thinks he is a genius for suggesting I couldn’t write the Book of Mormon, and I’m like you’re right cuz I have no interest in doing that but he’s 4 people that could-guy that wrote View of the hebrews for similar content, Tolkien lord of the rings for complexity, guy in Michigan that translated plates he dug up out of the ground for similarity of how, and dang I can’t remember the 4th example. And my uncle’s brilliant comeback was …yeah but u couldn’t.🤦♀️
Well said. I wish to see video and hear argument that parses the possibility that the Book's historicity is not true yet the spiritual parts of the Book may be true. I wish the Church would make space for such a position.
Well that would depend on how you define something spiritual as true, given it has no physical state and therefore no physical evidence to test. I suppose you you could characterise it under utility maybe?
if i was writing a book, it would not be repetitive like the Book of Mormon. I read part of 3rd Nephi recently, the part where Jesus came. it was so repetitive, I ended up stopping.
“How can it not be true?” The answer is simple - if it was made up. This entire video they put out is just an argument from incredulity mixed with some lies and distortions of facts. “Jo was as dumb as a rock in a hat, so he couldn’t have written a 531 page book in 65 days!” And yet he was entirely capable of reading the Bible, and coming up with elaborate and detailed stories about the Native Americans throughout his childhood and early teen years. Nothing of what he did is remotely miraculous. There have been people who have had incredible memories, vivid imaginations, or other similar talents that would have been helpful in writing a book. For example, Handel’s Messiah was written in about a month and is considered one of the greatest compositions ever written. The problem with Mormon apologists is that in order for the BoM to be a miracle, they have to assert that Joseph was a complete idiot with no mental capacities, no knowledge of anything but plowing dirt (and maybe women lol), and zero education. Otherwise there’s nothing particularly extraordinary about it. Of course, that’s not to say anyone could do it, but it’s certainly within the realm of possible for someone with a creative mind and a good memory.
good points but i would say that in the end that the land probably wasn't hidden due to the fact that the Nephites kept on sinning it happens all the time in the BOM, and they were supposed to be the righteous ones so to assume that land was kept secret while they were doing all that stuff i wouldn't really say holds up
I think the point more is that they were the only ones there, and so they, as was believed by members of the church for years, were the progenitors of the Native Americans! A claim now soundly refuted and requiring a narrative shift!
Smith and Crowley rent the same s*** as well as also another cult leader l.ron Hubbard he wrote his texts his book his so-called new scripture quote on quote unless the month if I remember right I think even shorter than that and it's around 500 pages. That he was an ignorant farmboy that propagated Lie by their cult they lie about their so-called leader nobody knew how to read and write in an early age his father was a teacher as well as he was well aware of many different writing sources and can recite them easily as well as tell his mother long stories that could fill up or more than half of the bom just by Word of Mouth 👄. Smith had a very good talent to bs and and make long operations on it say if he didn't live back then he was here today and he was doing this kind of stuff except for a different reason he could actually have a entire Tonight Show basically we could entertain us with fictional stories then he went beep or you'll be actually being rich the right way at least you can actually do things for Earthly Bad Manners at least for a proper way and not try to destroy Christianity or even try to lie about Native people and lethally or that s***.
It seems like a perfect rebuttal to make a video entitled “How can the BofM be false?” You nailed that premises on the head! Enjoyed your video as always
I regard Smith's BOOK OF MORMON as a mystery instead of history. There is not a single shred of evidence to support any of Smith's claims in the Book of Mormon. Smith wrote a book for a mid - nineteenth century audience living in a rural wilderness who believed in magic and ritual. The Book of Mormon needs to remain in the nineteenth century because Smith's book has no relevance outside the time and place in which the book was created and published.
The B.O.M. may have 531 pages. But: 1) There is a Topical Guide at the bottom of each page. Sometimes this takes up OVER A QUARTER of the page. On average I guess about 15% of the page. 2) There are also explanatory paragraphs at the start of each chapter ( about one every two pages.) If both of these things were removed that would mean far fewer than 531 pages. So, could someone please calculate the number of pages in the BOM if the Topic Guide and explanatory paragraphs were removed? These two things are of course additional to the text. When people mention the ACTUAL TEXT not being so impressive in length, they might mention the Isaiah filler or other quotes from the Bible. But: 3) The way the book is written makes its length less impressive. It's wordy. For example, why not take out all the unnecessary auxillary verbs? Instead of: "I did cry unto the Lord and behold he did visit me? Why not: " I cried unto the Lord and he visited me?" Without behold it is even shorter.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON The New Book of Mormon Challenge Nemo, Could you calculate exactly how many pages the BOM would have if the following were removed? 1) BIble Quotes in the text (about 10% of the text. ) 2) The Topical Guide... below the text. 3) Explanatory Paragraphs... before each chapter. While 2 & 3 do not increase the word count of the actual TEXT of the BOM, as they are not in it, they still increase the number of PAGES of the book overall to 531. No.1, of course, increases both the length of the actual story and the book I guess you would first somehow scan the pages and estimate the space taken up by 2 & 3. Then see how removing them reduced the number of pages, perhaps to 450 ; Then with only the text left reduce that by 10% leading to a page count of 405. I have actually read that the KJV contribution is higher than 10%, but be generous. Having done this you could then spend the next month, crossing out all the unecessary "It came to passes," auxilliary verbs, relative pronouns, "beholds," passive constructions, adverbial phrases, and repetition of possessive adjectives, leaving the following for example! I Nephi ,born of goodly parents, was taught somewhat in the learning of my father, And having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, Yet being highly favoured of the Lord, and having great knowledge of His goodness and mysteries, Therefore I make a record of my proceedings. Your challenge is to get the book down to 300 pages! I think that's really the equivalent of what we have here.
@@Themanyfacesofego give it a little bit more I would give it most through in 25 but that alone still destroys the text but if we actually do a little closer check actually it's less than that I would say below 300 in the 200 not to mention that there was early drafts of its pieces prior to 1828. As well as proto drafts too. In 1827 not long after Smith was arrested charge for glass looking and occult practice why scamming which were also tied into his deliriousness and crazy behavior.
Joseph Smith didn't just "start dictating". From 1823 he was telling Book of Mormon stories to his family. There are many writers who never went that far. I've wondered if the lost pages weren't very good, hence their loss being convenient.
As a curious new watcher and so far just at 2:47 of the video I don’t see the big deal of them using a CGI of an old structure. It’s just painting a picture for the watcher. yeah they could’ve used a 4th real image or not. Doesn’t seem to Matter to me…
8:50 You (Nemo) stating that the churches comment being contradicting compared to what’s said in the Book of Mormon is totally reaching in my opinion. (2 Nephi 1:8-9) As far as me watching and researching myself in record & Scripture. The Church not claiming to be a record of all inhabitants or Native American Ancestors lines up with what’s said in (2 Nephi 1:8-9) Book of Mormon.. It sticks to those three civilizations records. It DOES say there will be other nations to come foot on that land but that’s every land on this earth. (A Very General Statement) and in reading (2 Nephi 1:8-9) it goes on to say if they do set foot on the land and so long as they keep the commandments they will prosper and won’t be influenced/bothered by outside forces of the world, “inheriting” the blessings and safety from our lord.
Sad that you have that name. "Alma" which means young woman or virgin and is feminine set for a woman. Yet its a name of a man in smith's bom fan fiction of fan fiction.
does the book of Mormon exist = yes is it historically accurate = no is it scientifically accurate = no does the book contain plagiarised stories of other religions and cultures = yes has this been proven = yes, many times.
I like how that video makes unbelievably vague and sweeping claims with literally not a shredd of evidence/sources cited lol. It almost feels like a Mormon bearing their testimony but in video form. It's just words with absolutely no attempt to demonstrate a real argument with tangible evidence.
Now that the church isn’t doing the Pageant, maybe they’ll do an archeological dig on Cummorah and reveal chariots and horse skeletons and fine steel swords. Just kidding.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON A guy in my ex ward took his family camping upstate and they were beyond thrilled to have found Lamanite arrowheads near the Hill. And doesn’t that just prove there was a battle there? 🙄
They have to finish building it first, then tumble it & age it, then bury it again, & it shall come to pass they'll dredge it up & pay the right $ for someone to declare it bona fide dig & behold they shall stand before the press & pronounce it the true evidence of the bom that it's true, end of conversation, & thus shall they continue thereafter to stand on that & never make another answer and never sit down forevermore amen
I really appreciate your videos but am so confused as to how you see all of the church deception and fraud and still the a faithful member??????? You are a very interesting human.
Aside from surrounding circumstances, the book itself contains very little. There are gaps of hundreds of years in the timeline, paraphrasing of Bible stories, paraphrasing of the book itself, events narrated where the was no witness present, just like the Bible, same structure for many stories. Pages and chapters of just someone passing the plates down to the next person. A large amount of filler and fluff. Every war or battle described in the same way. Also many historical errors, anachronisms and contradictions, and the caveat of "if there are errors, they're the faults of men". Even though it's supposed to be "the most correct book" ever, whatever that means. If two books tell you to be nice to others, they are both equally correct, in that point. A basic math book will always be far more correct, if by that we mean that the facts presented are true and can be confirmed.
The original Mormons: Joseph Smith Jr. (December 23, 1805 - June 27, 1844) a good looking and intelligent young man from a penniless upstate New York family; professional buried treasure hunter. Oliver H. P. Cowdery (October 3, 1806 - March 3, 1850) a school teacher who boarded with the Smith family David Whitmer (January 7, 1805 - January 25, 1888) farmer; friend of Oliver Cowdery Martin Harris (May 18, 1783 - July 10, 1875) prosperous farmer; employer of Joseph Smith Sr. the Smith family Joseph Smith Sr. (July 12, 1771 - September 14, 1840) father of Joseph Smith Jr. Emma Hale Smith Bidamon (July 10, 1804 - April 30, 1879) wife of Joseph Smith Jr Hyrum Smith (February 9, 1800 - June 27, 1844) brother of Joseph Smith Jr Samuel Harrison Smith (13 March 1808 - 30 July 1844) brother of Joseph Smith Jr. the Whitmer family Jacob Whitmer (February 2, 1800 - April 21, 1856) brother of David Whitmer John Whitmer (August 27, 1802 - July 11, 1878) brother of David Whitmer Christian Whitmer (January 18, 1798 - November 27, 1835) brother of David Whitmer Peter Whitmer Jr. (September 27, 1809 - September 22, 1836) brother of David Whitmer Hiram Page (c. 1800-August 12, 1852) brother in law of David Whitmer Apparently after 1826, Joseph Smith Jr realized that his fraudulent treasure hunting career was a failure and he began thinking about a career as a religious leader and false prophet. In 1829, Smith met poor school teacher Cowdery and they put together a book based on the King James Bible, View of the Hebrews published in 1823 by Ethan Smith (no relation, although he was an acquaintance of Cowdery) and their own imagination. Whitmer and his family joined the conspiracy probably in hope of becoming religious leaders and escaping a hard life of farming. Harris was conned into providing the money. So basically the foundation of Mormonism was the beauty (Smith) the brains (Cowdery) the money (Harris) and the Whitmers who jumped on the bandwagon. Three very young, 25 year old, men and one middle aged man who paid the bills, along with most of the Smith and Whitmer families, founded Mormonism. The Book of Mormon went on sale March 26, 1830. The LDS church opened for business in Smith’s home on April 6, 1830. In 1835 Smith and Cowdery published a sequel to the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants. Since then various other scriptures have been published, such as the Pearl of Great Price, and Mormon prophets and prophecies continue to this day. Mormonism broke up into competing sects after the death of Smith. From 1850 to 1900, tens of thousands of Mormon converts from poor districts of Denmark, Sweden, England and Germany poured into Utah. They formed the basis of the present Utah population. There have been no large scale conversions since 1900, partially because Mormons had no interest in converting non-white people. The center of Mormonism today is Provo, Utah, a suburb of Salt Lake City, which is 90% Mormon and 90% white and home to Brigham Young University. (Like the rest of the country, Utah has had a significant and growing Hispanic population since 1990. Someone has to wash the toilets.) Utah is definitely the world center of Mormonism, with only small communities scattered elsewhere. Mormons are characterized by being very kind and friendly to each other and to potential converts, devoutly religious and somewhat white supremacist. Most Mormons have a lifestyle reminiscent of the United States in the 1950’s. They also do not drink or smoke. A minority practice polygamy and forced child marriage. (Starting in 1841, after becoming the leader of Nauvoo, Illinois, Smith began having sex with any woman he could get his hands on and some Mormon men to this day have tried to follow in his footsteps. One, Warren Jeffs, is serving life in prison as a result.)
The Book of Mormon proves itself. It doesn’t need anyone to prove it. To anyone who says it isn’t true, I challenge them to write a book comparable to The Book of Mormon. They won’t even start the task because they’ll know it’s impossible. The Book of Mormon was written by the Prophets of God we Latter-day Saints day it was.
This is just another system that has been taken over by mans need to control. Legal, medical, political, and i know add this church. I always knew the members didnt follow. Oh well keep my hands in the earth, face towards Christ, reliance on the Spirit, and Dependency of Gods Will and ALL WILL BE WELL !! Thanks for using your skills.
@@samantacm8048 it depends on what type of feeling your referring to. A personal experience which involves the Mind, body and other senses which some people experience and remember for many years can be described as a deep spirtual experience. That might make something they believe in like the existence of a loving being or divine intelligence very real! Its a very personal thing, they might share or they might not. If they do share and others dont believe them it does not make that experience untrue or false. For the experience is theirs and was meant to be so. You can say that experience is false but how wd you know? Just because some writer from the past has said it cannot be relied upon, or its a line in the new testament that may have many meani ngs out of context or in context. If you believe a thing is impossible you never likely to believe it could be possible until something significant changes yr mind. That all starts with the notion i really want to know if?
@@CyrusmagiI think in this case what I am refering is mormons tend to claim they know to be the true church because of "feelings", this normally happens when contradicted with insconsitencies from mormon theology and biblical theology, Joseph Smith and Church History. I agree with you that the Bible can be taken out of context that's why you must read at least the whole chapter, study the context at that time and so on... Mormon theology takes the NT out of the context many times, eternal marriage, exaltation, becoming Gods and so on... I believe one is free to believe in whatever he wants but at the same time I believe critical thinking is a must, something unfortunally I don't see on LDS Church where you must research within the Church approved sources or you will be lead astray.
Oh come on! The Book of Mormon is so complex, who in the world could have written it! Joseph Smith? impossible! Ideas from the "View of the Hebrews" or "Solomon Spaulding's manuscript? Ridiculous! Come on Capt. Nemo, your very intelligent, WHO???
Are you being sarcastic I hope you are because cuz if so your sarcasm defeats you. Going through that book it's not complex it's actually quite simply stupid and fabricated almost on every page close study of its background formulated shows in fact it is fraud.
Alma and Nephi have so many suspicious errors and fabrications in them their inability to actually read as well as the names are fabricated let alone more than half of their content is already forged by Bible texts view the Hebrews Etc
@@ronalddunlap9933 wrong sir I do know what I'm talking about because I have read it and I know people who have read it in-depth again and again you don't know what you're talkin about because you've never studied it you never ask a question that are challenged it or even looked at it or even seen the errors and it in the flaws in it they're so crappy so terrible because you're introduced and brainwashed into Ally never questioned it and never realized how false upon fake upon fake it is that is sick and sad
@@ronalddunlap9933 you need a lot of help and you need to get really smacked around in order to get yourself fixed because you will have no idea where the light is
Why do you call your self a Mormon if you are are contly making fale claimes and talking against it.if you do not believe in the church why do you stay in the church
****SUNSTONE UK 2021 - 27 MARCH****
I'm so excited to be speaking at Sunstone, and so you don't miss it, you can catch it at the following link:
facebook.com/groups/143828186747679/
Would you consider covering the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the Egyptologists when speaking at sunstone?
I haven't heard your response.
@@julianpetersen43 When an individual makes truth claims , it's not up to others to prove that it's false, it's up to the individual making such claims to back it with factual evidence.
Such evidence is lacking regarding Book of Mormon truth claims.
@@richardholmes7199Richard.. Paul Gregersen's so called "debunking" videos I find are a rather confusing cauldron of Gregersens opinion.
His "evidence" is severely flawed and goes on to claim a victory over "anti - Mormon liars". If any individual has to descend to ad hominem to endorse their own opinion as Gregersen does then he has no credibility.
@@TheShodan92 How is Paul Gregersen's evidence severely flawed?
I left the LDS Church 20+ years ago. I recently have been following your channel. I viewed your life story on Mormon Stories. Your attention to detail and your ability to hold the LDS accountable is admirable. You are helping many people. Thank you!
Cheers, you're very welcome!
Interesting I have been a Mormon for 77years read most anti Mormon writings. That have been proved wrong.
But please carry on because your blogs actually help us to convert THOUSANDS DAILY.
Once they hear your rubbish and then hear the truth they convert.
There are a lot of Evangelical and😮 Baptist pastor's who advise people to read the book of Mormon.
You have just strengthened my testimony again of Mormonism (The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saint's)
Thanks for helping us grow.
Nemo is spinning his wheels, but going nowhere. Meanwhile, the Restored Gospel is moving forward all over the world. Every time we turn around, a new temple is going up. More new members are coming in. Yes, there are some members drifting away. It’s meant to be that way. There’s a sifting going on. That’s why there’s three degrees of Glory, and it seems Nemo is helping some to go for the distant star (telestial).
Absolutely! Thank you. Your skills are incredible
@@herbofallon965 they're losing more than they can even retain.
Dude, it's clear you put a TON of research into this one.
BRAVO.
Cheers pal!
A ton of research? He just copied the talking points that have been regurgitated over the last 100+ years and some over the last 20 years. Same old tired arguments. I would suggested you do your own research versus nemos very flawed so called research. Once you have done the research and you feel you got what you needed, then take your quest to the Lord, the true source of truth.
The following (from 4 Nephi 1:6) is an example of the profound and concisely expressed thoughts in the BOM.
This example shows why it would be SO hard to produce so much similar quality writing in just 65 days:
'And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away.'
HAHAHA! Gotta love those filler verses!
Were I a pre-Colombian Prophet lugging around 150 lb of Golden plates, and sat for a moment to read when I was carrying, THAT verse would be particularly upsetting.
😆🤣😂
🤣
@@ozymandias6743 That verse is the literary equivalent of Princess Vespa’s giant hair dryer being lugged across the desert in Space Balls.
Many authors are VERY prolific and write Book of Mormon length books in a shorter amount of time repeatedly.
The look on your face at "Archeological Evidence Supports It" = Priceless
It could be false because Joseph Smith was a known con-man and dabbler in folk magic who also happened to be extremely creative.
If you did your research, you would fine that the Book of Mormon, makes for a good fiction movie, no truth to it Al all.
And he was amazing at plagiarism!
Such an amazingly clear logician, I love your content, they give me a better idea of how to defend my beliefs against my parents (: so concise and historically accurate !
Thank you! I'm so glad it's helpful to you! Best of luck with it, drop me an email if you ever need anything.
my comment, that is seriously overlooked by most people, is that no one ever mentions the eerie canal and it's influence on the book of mormon and mormonism.
the eerie canal was completed in 1825. the year it opened up more goods were transported through to new york city than through new orleans.
the eerie canal connected cleveland ohio to new york city and all points in between. besides tons of goods, all the new ideas associated with frontier living were distributed.
you can at least see the connection readily enough with joseph smith's new church popping up over night in kirland, ohio and his close association with sidney rigdon.
the mormon church purposely downplays the importance of the eerie canal, and never mentions it, even though palmyra is on the banks of the eerie canal.
what does it all have to do with the book of mormon and mormonism? the book of mormon was undoubtedly influenced by other books published about the same time.
another good example of frontier influence is jacob cochran.
Jacob Cochran (also Cochrane, 1782-1836) was a non-denominational preacher born in Enfield, New Hampshire, United States who founded the Cochranites in Saco, Maine. Cochranite worship is said to have resembled Shakerism, but which also practiced a new doctrine called spiritual wifery. Cochranism may have influenced the Mormon doctrines of plural marriage and the United Order, as well as the free love practice called complex marriage once favored by the Oneida Community.
Cochran also was working towards a communal order where everything was held in common.
it is myopic to think that joseph smith was not heavily influenced by other frontier thinking, and the eerie canal connected him to all points east and west.
another point about joseph smith's geography is that it follows the great lakes geography as the vern holley map shows. the narrow neck of land between two seas referred to in the b/m fits lake eerie and lake ontario very nicely.
Thanks for the extra info!
Great work again. Keep it up.
You nailed it from the start: This is not about whether I could write a book, it's about whether Smith could write the book. It is such a patent and flimsy attempt to shift the burden of proof.
The entire argument can be undermined by simply admitting Smith had a talent I don't have--that doesn't mean God is the only possibility. Beethoven composed his 9th Symphony (arguably one of the most transcendental pieces of music ever written) while almost entirely deaf. Does that mean the Ode to Joy is scripture, or that Beethoven was amazingly talented?
Cheers! There are so many examples of people doing things I never could, are they all divine? In a nutshell this is the major flaw in most apologetics in this area.
It's been said the great composers were inspired by God.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I'd say that the BoM is beyond the scope of what has been produced by any other fiction writer in history, by a long, long way. That's why I would use this type of argument.
Many people I talk to say that it isn't actually that complicated, but anyone who studies it knows that it is. I don't buy that JS was simply a genius storyteller because no others of his caliber produced anything remotely close to the BoM if it is fiction. And I mean there is no work of fiction within a mile of being in striking distance of what the BoM contains and does.
Critics of the BoM engage only with certain types of criticism of the BoM (anachronisms, comparisons to works of JS day, changes, etc). They don't engage on the whole with the narrative and themes. And most of what I've seen they wave away any defense that is made, insinuating that it is biased and thus not acceptable. The BoM gets a lot of thing astonishingly correct, and there is never any response from critics in those cases. Critics accuse us of putting our hands over our eyes and going "la la la" to any criticism, but it's more true for critics of the BoM from what I've seen. You accuse, we answer, you don't like the answer and ignore it.
@@markstenquist2315 What, exactly, does the BoM get "astonishingly correct"?
My partner and I have written FAR MORE text that reads far cleaner than the first-pass BoM by far.
The BoM isn't particularly impressive, especially not when you look at how long JS had to work on the story before writing it down.
But yes, my original question:
Like what?
One part of the bible that I love is how history shows it true and I try and read up on all knew discoveries. I was elated to study the dead sea scrolls found in Qumran which showed beyond any doubt that the old testament had not been corrupted as 1 Nephi chapter 13 said: "the loss of many plain and precious parts of the bible" had occurred.
This is why Nephi said there was the need for "the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture". 1 Nephi 13: 26 says "after .. the twelve apostles of the Lamb, ... the formation of that great and abominable church, ... for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious". The notes at the bottom say Nephi made this prophesy between 600 and 592 B.C. Then 1 Nephi 13:30 says: "because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel ... Satan hath great power over them". Then, 1 Nephi 14:3 says because of this "the devil... lead away the souls of men down to hell".
But the dead sea scrolls proved this prophecy is false as the scrolls found in cave 1 show that the old testament we have is not corrupted like Nephi said. And the other caves have proven this also with more books of the old testament. Jesus said he was the "word" of God and was one with the Father (not a previous humanoid) as a false prophet would say. God bless you.
Nemo, your videos are such high quality. I’m surprised that you don’t have more subscribers at this point. I now watch these videos as the balance to sacrament meeting every Sunday.
I appreciate that! I'm really glad to have the subscribers I have, they're great!
Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube''.
@@richardholmes7199 one question: what are this guy’s qualifications and why do you think he knows more about Egyptian than people who study it for a living?
The funny thing about the idea behind "How Can It Not Be True?" is the assumption that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. Isn't it also just as likely that he collaborated with other individual[s] in the production of the book (and it's content) and that the real "fiction" (besides the book itself) is the story they concocted about how he miraculously "translated" it from Golden Plates which he found buried? His co-conspirators being Martin Harris, Oliver Cowardly and Sidney Rigdon.
Also Oliver came from a church who's pastor wrote the Book of the Hebrews.. published a few years prior to the BofM
Bingo. That's actually the premise I've held to. Joseph Smith had collaborators/cohorts from the onset of his religious meanderings and pursuit of establishing a religion with the emergence of holy scripture as a premise.
One part of the bible that I love is how history shows it true and I try and read up on all knew discoveries. I was elated to study the dead sea scrolls found in Qumran which showed beyond any doubt that the old testament had not been corrupted as 1 Nephi chapter 13 said: "the loss of many plain and precious parts of the bible" had occurred.
This is why Nephi said there was the need for "the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture". 1 Nephi 13: 26 says "after .. the twelve apostles of the Lamb, ... the formation of that great and abominable church, ... for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious". The notes at the bottom say Nephi made this prophesy between 600 and 592 B.C. Then 1 Nephi 13:30 says: "because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel ... Satan hath great power over them". Then, 1 Nephi 14:3 says because of this "the devil... lead away the souls of men down to hell".
But the dead sea scrolls proved this prophecy is false as the scrolls found in cave 1 show that the old testament we have is not corrupted like Nephi said. And the other caves have proven this also with more books of the old testament. Jesus said he was the "word" of God and was one with the Father (not a previous humanoid) as a false prophet would say. God bless you.
Neither the dead sea scrolls nor the current version of the Bible address doctrines in the clarity of the BOM. Where is the Christian understanding of the Gathering of Israel and restoration of all things? Many covenants and teachings about resurrection, baptism, etc., are missing also.
The Churches argument for the book of Mormon seems to be: Just because we said it, makes it so! LOL!!
A simple and frighteningly effective argument!
You forgot that we feel it's true so there's the witness that it's true..
Ps....so, I stop getting respones on my comment...I was adding to the original comment that the church through missionaries and members, once you to go by your feelings...ie feels good means its true... I wasn't saying that I was suggesting it!
@@user-bw3fl7fj9w Feelings don't cut it my friend, often they can be subjective.
Great for drawing out emotional conclusion due to them being part of our human construct.
But lousy if we allow our feelings to rule us and lead us to thinking that our feelings are an excellent substitute for facts.
@@user-bw3fl7fj9w feelings of satan and deceit no testing moronism there you have it lol.
@@user-bw3fl7fj9w
I suppose you'd be OK being on trial for a serious crime, and the jury makes their guilty or not guilty not based on evidence, but rather what they feel. How in any way are feelings a reliable way to determine the truth?
Thanks so much for posting your sources Nemo - see you online at Sunstone.
Absolutely, looking forward to it!
Once I gave myself permission to begin true investigation of the church last year, I was very quickly validated in questions I’d had over the years as a practicing member. For example the correlated aspect of the BOM translation narrative that JS translates in a very brief time period. There was always a red clad here for me. I thought “Actually, if he created the book, he had several years.” Thank you Nemo for being a rational voice that helps validate, I’m certain many who have reasonable doubts about the Mormon church.
*red flag
Thanks for the kind words! I do hope you continue to find my videos useful!
A rational voice, really. I guess it's rational to those that want to be validated so one does not have to live up to Christ standards. Your basing the truth of the BoM off of what nemo says? Well good luck with knowing anything is true. Have fun with living with YOUR truth.
There are problem you may find difficult. Significant evidence is abundantly available and is continuing to be uncovered that prove what is said in the BOM is supported by physical evidence from back east excavations. Additionally, native Americans have traditions passed down generation to generation that support the odd claims of the BOM. The local and federal governments have PILES of evidence supporting the BOM. However, they claim it is all fakes and refuse to allow it to be tested for authenticity. That in and of itself answers the authenticity test, or they wouldn't need to cover it up and lie about it.
One part of the bible that I love is how history shows it true and I try and read up on all knew discoveries. I was elated to study the dead sea scrolls found in Qumran which showed beyond any doubt that the old testament had not been corrupted as 1 Nephi chapter 13 said: "the loss of many plain and precious parts of the bible" had occurred.
This is why Nephi said there was the need for "the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture". 1 Nephi 13: 26 says "after .. the twelve apostles of the Lamb, ... the formation of that great and abominable church, ... for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious". The notes at the bottom say Nephi made this prophesy between 600 and 592 B.C. Then 1 Nephi 13:30 says: "because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel ... Satan hath great power over them". Then, 1 Nephi 14:3 says because of this "the devil... lead away the souls of men down to hell".
But the dead sea scrolls proved this prophecy is false as the scrolls found in cave 1 show that the old testament we have is not corrupted like Nephi said. And the other caves have proven this also with more books of the old testament. Jesus said he was the "word" of God and was one with the Father (not a previous humanoid) as a false prophet would say. God bless you.
It bothers me so much when they say that the only changes in the Book of Mormon errors when I was on my mission a hundred years ago I bought a copy of the first edition of course not the original... and I had the Book of Mormon on cassette oh, yep that's how long ago was and I followed the Book of Mormon being read from The Book of Mormon we were using and 1978 word for word. There are many many mistakes and that whole paragraphs that have been removed or added
Woooooow. This reminds me of the saying "if all your friends would jump off a cliff, would you?". Just because a lot of people do something, doesn't mean that that thing is worthwhile.
The lies shock and sadden me as well. To think that the church is still doing this is absolutely shameless.
It's quite amazing isn't it!?!?
This bit of apologetics comes from a the book "The Book of Mormon on trial" by John W. Rich, written in 1970. A summarized version of it has been popular among missionaries for many years. There are many more lies in the book, but many current readers take it at face value.
Okay let's break this down. Full disclosure, I am LDS, I definitely have a clear motive here, but it of course doesn't change the facts I'm going to argue. With that out of the way, let's get into it.
0:50 The point is not that we're putting undue expectation on someone who doesn't have the skill necessary to write the book of mormon, the point is that NO ONE has the skill necessary, especially a farm boy from the 1820's who had little education and was frequently described as borderline illiterate.
1:10 He starts criticizing the artistic visuals of the video. What purpose does this serve? it doesn't address any claims actually made in the video. It's simple jeering and cheap point scoring. I wouldn't have mentioned it if it was just an offhand comment, but he goes on for over a minute on this point. I guess it's just there to prime the audience into believing that everything in the video is inaccurate and that he's able to refute it all?
2:30 I was confused until I realized that he meant "ancient structures" when he said "ancient scriptures", and was just continuing on from the last point. Regardless, the claim made here is that there is a lack of geographical evidence for the book of mormon. (I presume he's referring to the new world in particular.) This is simply untrue. Here are some videos on the evidence:
ua-cam.com/video/0eg71RR2zP8/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/lSV68oZ3e0o/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/CLWcsxuHEtI/v-deo.html
2:55 Because we know that he didn't have any. Many of the people closest to Joseph (including his wife, mother, and scribes) wrote in their own personal diaries that he couldn't have possibly used any source material, and that he didn't read much anyway, and we know that he never visited the local library either. He dictated the whole thing blindfolded anyway, so he would've had to memorize the information anyway. Regardless, none of the alledged sources would have been available to him anyway, he's out in the backwoods of New York, and again never visited a library. Again, some videos that go more in depth on the topic:
ua-cam.com/video/pnkrQOEhuHA/v-deo.html (this one is a more formal version of the video being reacted to here)
www.jefflindsay.com/oneday.shtml (a more comedic take on the subject)
3:10 if you want to be more precise: 273,725 words. As an author myself that has written 60k word book from scratch in three weeks, 275k in two months is a gargantuan task. The average page is between 250 and 500 words depending on double or single space. So the equivalent is 531 to over a thousand pages. And by the way, double space is more standard for non-scripture books, so look more towards the high end of that. The guy in the video admits that the original edition was 60 pages longer after all. He does mention the word count eventually, (By the way, Brian Hales, the guy he cites for the word count, has written multiple studies arguing in favor of the book of mormon.) but that's not including the first 116 pages that just got deleted, which would put the whole dictation process at about 325k words, well over 300k, even if you take out the 14k that was taken up by Isaiah. And let's be clear, these passages weren't just copy pasted in. Joseph recited all 21 chapters blindfolded, and his scribe copied down what he wrote by hand. There's no functional difference between Isaiah and the original content. If you want to take the challenge and insist on being allowed to memorize and recite 14k words of pre-existing content, then by all means we'll spare you that. You'd still never come close to the book of mormon. Finally he tries saying that the word count is inflated because quantity is not quality. And I agree, the book of mormon has complexity surpassing Tolkien's works, it's certainly high quality. But raw quantity is important as well because he have to recite every last word, I don't care if you repeat phrases as often as Green Eggs and Ham does, 300k words is still 300k words.
5:40 I've read the verses he's talking about, the differences are slight and do not force a different interpretation. The point being expressed in the video is that the original edition didn't contain any punctuation at all. Thousands of commas had to be added to be prepared for print, (mostly because Joseph and Oliver didn't know how grammar works) and you can't majorly rewrite sections. Again, as an author, the vast majority of writing is rewriting Regardless, this point is pretty unimportant when trying to establish the truthfullness of the book of mormon, if you can't match the monumental task of creating a complex book of scripture that is a complete finished product in both the 1st and 2nd edition.
6:10 except those styles aren't what's being taken into account. The styles in question are the very clear differences between the styles of the book of mormon authors, particularly Nephi, Alma, Mormon, and Moroni. Even if you take things like Matthew into account (He's referring to Christ's visit to the America's where he gives altered versions of the sermon on the mount and other parables.) you would still have to commend Joseph on his ability to seamlessly replicate those styles, despite not being direct quotations. And even when you do quote things, your own voice still bleeds through if you're dictating from memory. Here are studies and videos on the topic:
knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/is-it-possible-that-a-single-author-wrote-the-book-of-mormon
ua-cam.com/video/l8-fpaNA78c/v-deo.html
journal.interpreterfoundation.org/comparing-book-of-mormon-names-with-those-found-in-j-r-r-tolkiens-works-an-exploratory-study/
rationalfaiths.com/book-of-mormon-stylometry-in-pictures-and-tables/
bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/watch-five-evidences-for-book-of-mormon-names?fbclid=IwAR3L5rUTYALstdOc8vFmG3Q8QCfft8wtw4bA2gt0e6t61vZblB95UuUqi7Y
bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/watch-evidence-of-the-book-of-mormon-internal-complexity
continued:
6:30 Yes it does. Need I link more evidence? Let's do the Old world this time:
bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/watch-compelling-book-of-mormon-evidence-for-lehi-s-journey-through-arabia
ua-cam.com/video/tB8-rVAdPug/v-deo.html
6:35 The hill in New York is simply named after the hill described in the book of mormon. And I've seen no quote from Joseph saying they are the same hill, I'm afraid Joseph Fielding Smith is simply mistaken. All it takes is to actually read the book of mormon to see this is the case. The final battle takes place on the original hill Cumorah, the hill with all the records. Moroni then takes the gold plates away from Cumorah--as his father instructed on his deathbed--and flees from the lamanites hunting him, and wanders in the wilderness for decades before finally burying the plates in New York. The geographical description given in the book of mormon is also entirely different from the New York hill. You would think that Joseph could do so little as keep his made up geography consistent with the geography of his own backyard, and yet he doesn't, and even mistakes the hill in New York for the hill Cumorah, a mistake that could have only possibly been made if Joseph WASN'T the author. Here's a video about evidence of Cumorah:
ua-cam.com/video/9-hk7RsqoU8/v-deo.html
8:45 No it doesn't make those claims. The geographical details in the book of mormon clearly indicate that it covers a very small area. I think the longest travel time included is about a month of traveling, and that's just because they got lost. Definitely not the amount of time that would be required if it covered all of the Americas, and all the peoples across the two whole continents.
8:50 Being kept from other nations means that they wouldn't be conquered by other nations. In fact many sociologists believe that the reason why the Indians were so far less advanced than the Europeans is because North America was so large that if conflict ever arose, the groups would just flee to the plentiful amounts of open area available, meaning that they became nomadic, and never had the need to innovate because they were backed into a corner because they were too busy migrating. This is also why some of the most advanced civilizations were in mesoamerica which was a much smaller area, which had a culture of warfare. This is all mirrored in the book of mormon. Even if you want to take the stance that there would only be civilizations that were sent by God, and none that discovered it by secular means, you still have to remember that the America's are massive. There could be 100 such nations, and there would still be enough space to have 100s of miles of separation between them. All that's necessary for this verse to be accurate is for there to be a relatively undeveloped (not necessarily uninhabited) 200ish sq mile area. And if you read between the lines of the book of mormon, there is ample evidence of other pre-existing people that they encountered upon arriving in the Americas.
9:35 the issue isn't that the intellectuals are mormon. The point is that they're mormon because they're intellectuals. Stop dancing around the elephant in the room. You simply cannot accept the book of mormon as a historical record without also believing the religious claims surrounding it. The two positions are inseparable. The fact that there are intellectuals that have a factual basis for their faith in the LDS church at all is the astounding feat of the book of mormon. I notice that he doesn't dare put into question the credibility of the scholars, only implies it by stating they're mormon, because if he were to actually confront the credentials of these experts, he would have to concede the point that they are indeed very credible in their fields and that their research is very factual. This is nothing but Bulverism.
9:45 I'll address his claim about the lack of DNA evidence here. The sample we are trying to detect out of the population of Native Americans, comes out to about 5 unique genomes (Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, and his wife) among the thousands of other Native Americas that they intermarried with. You could also include the Mulekites in this, but we don't know how many of them there were at first. So the descendants of five people among a million from over 2,500 years ago. Despite this, we actually have found some DNA evidence. Particularly pre-columbian plants that have DNA that hails from the Arabian Peninsula, which absolutely baffled researchers when they first found it. Again, here's a video on the topic:
ua-cam.com/video/eb1fDCU7DiM/v-deo.html
9:55 I presume the 85 days includes the 116 pages not included in the book of mormon that were just thrown out. If you're so insistent on being precise, then I have no qualms with changing the rules of the challenge as laid out in this video. You get an extra 20 days, but must write write an additional 116 pages, which are then to be given to a friend out of your sight. You must then continue from where you left off and then once you've finished the book, must return and rewrite the beginning from the perspective of another character, and still remain consistent with the pages you gave to your friend, who will be present and remember what the original beginning said. As for Joseph thinking the story up before he got the plates, this doesn't hold up as Joseph is reported as being surprised at certain passages when they come up. For example he was surprised that Jerusalem had walls, the process of baptism described, and was brought to tears by the passage on infant baptism, seeing as his own son had died during childbirth. Even still, if I were to grant you this point, Joseph would only have the general story in his head, and none of it written down. And the video said you must WRITE the book in 65 days. Obviously we can't stop you from utilizing pre-existing ideas while writing your "record." And besides, the book of mormon definitely doesn't seem like the kind of story that someone would come up with as a child and developed as they grew up anyway. The idea that Joseph told his mother stories isn't as impressive as the fact that these stories turned out to be archeologically accurate to criteria we wouldn't even know to measure the book of mormon against until over a hundred years after being published. Also the idea that it would go by quicker because he orally dictated it is silly. They don't have text to speech you know. Every time Joseph said a phrase, he had to wait for Oliver Cowdery to write it down, and then double check that he got it right. Clearly it would be much faster for Oliver Cowdery to simply write it on his without having to wait for Joseph to talk inbetween writing sentences. If you don't believe me, try "writing" a simple letter by orally dictating it to a scribe. After you've gone through all the umms and long pauses while you try to figure out what to say next, then you can tell me it wouldn't have been many times faster to simply write in down yourself. You assume that it's faster because you imagine a professional stenographer copying down Joseph's words as he speaks fluently as if he's reading a book out loud. In reality, it's one verse at a time while Joseph has his face in a hat.
10:35 Or it's just pointing out the fact that since people volunteer two years of life for the sake of spreading it's message, that there must be something to it, and that whatever book you could create under these conditions would have to produce the same zeal and conviction in its readers. It's not so much an appeal to popularity as it saying that the book the viewer creates is required to end up being similarily popular. And it's not really an appeal to popularity anyway. People tend to dislike the missionaries and being a mormon is in no way popular or commonplace, so saying that the video is trying to get people to jump on the band wagon is plain silly. Any social capital is only gained while among other mormons, and not until after the mission is completed. During the actual 2 year time period, the missionaries are under incredible stress motivating them to not be mormon because of the bad encounters they have with naysayers everyday.
11:10 no lack of archeological evidence, especially considering what you would expect given the amount of knowledge we have on the topics being discussed. It's incredible actually how much evidence we do have with how little we know about ancient mesoamerica, especially compared to our wealth of knowledge of the old world.
11:25 Not as tightly constrained? You've provided no evidence to back up this claim. The most you've said is that it was 85 days instead of 65, and that Joseph told his mother stories. Even disregarding the rest, I'd like to see someone write any 300k word book in 85 days, the discipline required to accomplish such a task even without the other restrictions is almost inhuman.
conclusion:
11:30 You're right. And no matter how much you think the book is the false, that doesn't make it so either. And honestly, you haven't put your money where your mouth is, you haven't put any skin in the game. You just sit and poke holes from a safe distance without offering any alternative explanation about how it's possible for the book of mormon to even exist. Even throughout this video, you flip flop between the a prior assumptions that Joseph translated the book the way he claimed he did, and the assumption that he faked the translation process. What's your null hypothesis here? Are you doing an internal critique, or providing an alternative view? The whole point of this video is to show how ridiculous the atheist position that Joseph Smith came up with the book on his own is, and how it would be impossible to reproduce it given the parameters. Your hypothesis can't be demonstrated, the results are not reproduceable. You're like someone saying that Einstein's theories can't be correct because you're able to point out ways it doesn't fit within your quantum physics model. The fact of the book of mormon's existence doesn't need to change in order to fit your preconceived notions, you need to manage your assumptions to stay in line with the historical facts. The book exists, you can't refute that. Provide your own explanation, or shut up.
Some interesting counter points, and I appreciate you taking the time to write them out for me!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Thank, I very much appreciate your effort to be objective. And apologies if any of my points came off as rude.
Another great video. Thanks for your information. I really like your channel.
You’re very welcome! Thanks for watching!
It really bothers me when member says that it only took a few months for him to translate The Book of Mormon. He had to return annually for 4 years until Moroni supposedly allowed him to take the plate. So let's say he started thinking about the Book of Mormon four years before he started he had that much time to be writing the whole time.
Exactly, and we know he was telling stories to his family too.
There's evidence of Proto drafts of the bom as well and many pieces of the material mbom if you get it down for it's true original Short sources come from its own family experience is like a dream of a tree which came from his dad in 1811 I think.
Google ''Word Print Studies Of The Book of Mormon FAIR''. A bit of info proving you wrong.
@@richardholmes7199 what word print studies ? The studies of the boo. Prove you wrong way wring here you spewed agaisnt me but only turns back and hits you only. Proves you wrong far more than double wrong. The "chiasmus" theory has been torn apart and doesn't exist in the fraud bom and another problem is that 1800 material contains modern day "chiasmus" and refutes your position. Google bom is fraud dummy where Google works dummy and lost soul for hell. Repent
Good job on this one Nemo. I was a bit amused though by your observation that beyond those who get a paycheck from BYU, the number of academics and intellectuals who support the veracity of the BofM diminishes considerably. Quite an understatement. In fact the number is virtually zero.
But only a Sith deals in absolutes ;) on a serious note I don’t know for certain that no intellectuals unpaid by the church support the veracity, and it’s a great way to get egg on my face when someone pulls out one guy somewhere!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON You are right, even if there is only one, it would be like a hard core apologist to ambush you with a "gottcha."
I love these short little videos!!! Way better than the 6 or 7 hour monstrosities by mormon stories.
hahahahaha....I AGREE......"monstrosities by mormon stories" LOL
I love Mormon Stories, but take my time listening. No law says you have to listen in one sitting. 💕
Totally agree. (And lengthened by Dehlin's non sequitur rants.)
@@iceguy9723 John could do way better is he just sat there with his googoo eyes glistening and not said a word while the people he interviews tell their story
GREAT Video, this man did his homework. Very knowledgeable.
Cheers!
On archeology...about a year ago, I came across the British show Time Team. As an American, I had no clue this existed, but I’ve been watching as many episodes as I can since then. They are on UA-cam so it’s easy to find here in the States.
But in it, they come across Roman slag heaps and smelting kilns constantly! In fact, it’s one way they know it’s a Roman culture. And yet, there is hardly archeology in the American continents showing metallurgy took place. There is a little evidence of something in Peru where it’s more a jewelry type of thing, but not enough to have chariots, swords and other weapons. The Book of Mormon fails at each and every turn!
Time Team is Great!!!!
What makes it worse but the idea about Advanced is to monolithically simplistic it's not that simple and actually has several different routes and alien ways of advanced advanced comes in three to four different ways at least or almost most and one way we say advances by the Western Middle Eastern European and North African World by what we know or what's dominant which is where the book of moron came from is a fanfiction Luffy fanfiction up in a colonialist mindset. We look at the far alien forms of advanced civilization and high-tech different worlds like the Americas or Asia Africa recently see something far different of sophisticated something that we never knew about it because of the dominant white world we find far different advancements that are completely alien to anything that was claimed by the morons or anyting judeo-christian Colonial like the cold relies upon and can't live without in fact is so ingrained into it they're separated is to destroy it. Cool gets worse than that the very fact of anything Advanced by native people now he doesn't support it way way refuted Tom and morons even further they have to twist things even have a stand which they can't cuz that makes them even more dishonest they have no station how do you want to slice it or or spin it more on his arm loses every single time no matter how it wants to play the Utah staff so-called church or cult has no leg to stand on at all that's why I have to keep on changing and changing and then with the newer Generations denying it what they originally were for and what they're about even existed they throw their so-called pro(fit)"phet" smith and others under the bus all to conform to outside world that has grown toooo far above them now though this is not to say that they were above Joseph Cult of moron ism 200 years ago and less. But true restoration of christianity by evangelicals and such and revealing natives own history and stories 2000 years ago more and more less that way over refutes and contradicts moronism verbatim point by point as well as simple common sense destroys smith.
I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was correct when He said, "do not cast Pearl's before swine", meaning "do not throw valuable information to those who will never appreciate or understand it". There is nothing anyone with intelligence can ever say to faithful mormons to change their mind about the greatest fraud ever perpetrated against mankind----Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
Mormons will reject any information that is derogatory towards the church, even though everyone outside the church is laughing at them for their insane beliefs.
Jehova Witnesses are also a cult, but their members are mainly uneducated, ignorant people, who mostly have grammar school education. Mormons, however, are mainly professional, highly educated people, like doctors, school teachers, lawyers, etc., that should know better, yet they are duped, even worse than Jehova Witnesses.
BoM talks of chariots in Israel, not in BoM times. Common mistake coming from anti's talking points. Study heartland and other BoM archeology, you will be quite surprised by what is known.
I wrote my first book, 52,000 word novel, in 17 days. No fillers or copied passages like the Book of Mormon. It was pretty grueling, but I was also working 40 hours a week in this process. I didn’t do any research, and I based it on my surroundings. Multiply that by five, and you have the Book of Mormon. Honestly, it’s not at all unrealistic that Joseph created this story, especially given that he used sources in his time period to aid in its creation.
its also the content of the book. multiplying by 5 IS A LOT.
also to bring forth an entire history of a people with little to no contradictions historically is a whole different level. With these civilizations add in their foods materials...heritages ..etc...
basically lord of the rings in 60-80 days. it took LOR years to finish.
you guys gotta stop acting like this could be done.
You absolutely no nothing of what you are talking about. Do your research on the history of the boy Joseph that discovered the plates. Was barely educated
@@kaylumhendrickse4644 you know, I’ve done a lot of research on Joseph Smith. For example, I know he claimed the papyrus contained a history written by the hand of Abraham that he translated into the Book of Abraham, but that Egyptologists have completely debunked it. In fact, it’s not even from the same century. So, I already know he’s capable of fabricating scriptural text in a way people find convincing. If we add to that things like him marrying a 14 year old girl or inciting a riot to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor for exposing his practices of polygamy and polyandry (which is what he was killed for), it seems obvious that he was a fraud. And when we look at the church, the fruits of his labor, and we see the harm and the damage it does all while enriching itself, it’s evident none of it is true.
@@jaromsmiss no contradictions except the ones they edited out and the historical anachronisms, you mean.
@@AndOrMaybeSure historical speaking in the BOM there is VERY little contradictions.. Even if there are historical issues its not huge, 600+ pages of a historical account is extremely intense.
grammar errors are worthless for your point here. You are literally saying that a man with crappy education can produce a book like Lord of the rings in 3 -4 months. Im not even Mormon, but people like you are so quick to toss aside the reality of how things are. You literally compared your book to the Book of Mormon.
it is very UNREALISTIC to think what you did was even anywhere remotely close to what JS did. keep it 100
Keepin em honest yet again!! Thanks again NEMO!!
My pleasure!!
When is Nemo going to admit Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists?
@@richardholmes7199 From Paul Gregersen - "You will see things get much much better when I reveal the LDS church being true from within an ancient mathematical code unveiled straight from the Bible itself. Its coordination process passing through centuries of connected time lines. We will unveil a predesigned prophetic system explaining precise mathematical prophecies to the world for the first time. Its perfect alignment will prove so incredibly accurate within its mathematically measured time line that it will stun all critics into shock and a terrible silence. Its perfect connections spanning over thousands of years from the past to present so amazingly that the odds of any accidental coincidences will become greater than infinity. The time line will strike the 1830 restoration of the LDS church 12 separate times on the Bibles sequence of prophetic links. It will do this in such a convincing way that any tricked manipulation will be absolutely impossible to happen by chance. No computer on earth could have devised it. That is what is coming and you won't like it. When it is unveiled the press is now ready to be notified by designated people . Get your smartest critics lined up because this is going to hit within the next few months very hard and sudden."
Is this guy the leader of QAnon?? After digging a bit, I’m unsure your point or how this is relevant, until he publishes his BoA stuff in the peer-reviewed academic Egyptological literature nobody will take this serious.
@@trevorper Egyptological literature? Do you seriously believe Joseph Smith's translation/revelation was supposed to match up with that of Egyptian mythology in order to have been translated correctly?
@@richardholmes7199 What I seriously believe is that Joseph had no translation or revelatory power and he made it all up. Occam’s Razor. Much easier explanation.
Excellent Video! Congrats on speaking at Sunstone!
Thanks, I’m so thrilled!
I dont really understand your point in this video showing skepticism of the Book of Mormon going together with your still being a member of the church. If the Book of Mormon isn't true then the church is invalid, so why would you stay a member if you think the Book of Mormon isn't true? This is a real question.
I listened to this video twice because of how soothing this guys voice is.
Listen to other sources pro and con, then you can make a better evaluation. Hopefully take it to the Lord, the source of all truth.
This was great lol. Keep up the great work Nemo!
Excellent work, my friend. Bringing facts to a faith fight might not always have the impact we'd like, but it's still important to sow as many seeds as possible.
No doubt! Cheers!
Great points like always! Everytime I see a new archaeological discovery on my news feed it reminds me of the glaring lack of evidence that is archaeological evidence for the book of Mormon. I also find it amazing that they would state that there's archaeological evidence for the book, a complete lie.
Congrats on Sunstone, I'm looking forward to it.
Cheers! I feel the same way, especially living in Britain, where we are finding Roman things all the time, and having spent most of my childhood walking around ancient things. I can't believe I never twigged that if this ancient Roman Bath-house is still around, where is the Book of Mormon Archaeology?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON dont you think it is a bit confusing for viewers of your channel to see you agreeing with people who shun your cult even though you said in your about page that you are a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints?
It might be, but then I think it really just shows I’m a complex person with complex beliefs like everyone else. Being a member doesn’t mean I don’t see issues with the church, I think my channel makes that very clear! And just because some of those issues are shared by those who have chosen to strongly denounce the church as a cult is no reflection on my ability to remain a member and see these issues. Hope that clarifies, cheers for your comment!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON dont get me wrong, I like the unbiased approach you take on things, but it just seemed a bit weird to me since you yourself are a latter day saint. Honestly these videos are leading me away from the church a lot more then they are bringing me to it. Just an idea, try responding to a video attacking mormonism and defend . You might get a lot less views and more dislikes though. But anyways how do you reconcile your belief in all these issues that the church, so much so that you said the prophet was lying to kids, with your belief that this is the true church? If a muslim said muhammad lied they would be denounced as a heretic instantly.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I’m so curious to know your reasons for staying in the church
I love your work Nemo. Its always well researched and you make good points.
Thank you kindly!
really glad you went over this cause if I saw this shit I'd lose my cool, I'm impressed that you can stay so calm discussing their maniupulative bullshit
I've been gaslighted my whole life, as many of us have, so even though I can see it now, I suppose still I'm used to it!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON honestly same though like sometimes it just hits you again, like the enormity of lies you believed, and its like holy shit this was my life
Your comment fits the description of someone having to stomach the LIES presented on the above video.
GOAT Mormon UA-cam channel. Just subscribed
10:35 I have discovered how the church is "True". Soon the word "True" will even be redefined as not in the literal sense but get enough people...l like 4 or 5 million and it's "True!"
No inspired work of God would repeat the same phrase And it came to pass 5,000 Why the Church keeps it in is a mystery
There are plenty of examples of people writing a book in 85 days in fact November is national novel writing month a challenge to write a book in one month and many people have been able to do. I am not sure the length but 85 days is more than enough time to write a book
So glad I made it out of that cult after 40 years of tbm. So much time wasted!
One thing you should mention about the Bible quotes in the book of Mormon that they include the italicized words that the 1623 translators added from the original text to make it read smoother in English. So having a plagiarism from this King James Bible only proves that it's not in fact in ancient document but a plagiarism of King James English biblical quotations
Exactly 💯 Joseph couldn't forsee the dead sea scrolls being found or the Rosetta stone
All the young missionaries going out is, to me, a real testament to the amazing power of social pressure. To begin with, most of them have spent their entire mortal existence in a culture that constantly pummels them with the singular message of absolute truth, and they also grow up in a culture where their continued social acceptance is conditioned not only on their proclamation of that professed truth, but that they also demonstrate that with rituals, ordinances, activity, and obligatory "service" as missionaries.
IMAGINE: You wrote a book with the assistance of familiar spirits.
The Sundance is a sacred ceremony of indigenous people of the North American continent. There are 12 poles used in the Sundance corral representing the original 12 disciples. How on earth would my people have this ancient knowledge without Christ coming to the American continent 🤔
I like your work, Nemo. Quick thought experiment, if incontrovertible proof of the BOM’s historicity were unearthed, what would that actually change in the the way the faith is practiced?
For me the most significant breakdown is the leap to blind faith in a leadership beyond reproach, especially in that the promise of divine intervention on doctrinal “misleading” is not well founded or supported by observed history whatsoever.
I remember showing this to the exmormon subreddit when it had little under a thousand views. I love how much people are dissecting this video.
Whether you believe the church or its truthfulness. One thing that is undeniably and undoubtedly correct is that the principles and morals that are instilled are by far the greatest.
From a less active LDS 🇿🇦
"One thing that is undeniably and undoubtedly correct..." According to who? By what demonstrable measure? What a ridiculously unqualified assertion. Let me guess, you are certain because you prayed and got that warm fuzzy feeling, right?
@@zachgarver7922 not at all. I just think that alot of principles that are being taught in a fucked up society is excellent for youth.
Thank you Nemo 🙌🏼🙌🏼
My pleasure!!
Was it Vogel who matched the geography of western New York very precisely with The Book of Mormon?
From what I recall, the BOM has a model of God based on modalism. Is that correct?
But still trinitarian how do you want to splice it moron ISM from its start to finish is a lie goes from bad to far worse like every year Smith would contradict himself or the new fake non-existent Revelation is in a revelation at all in the least you can buy a two-year-old he was a let Rebel liar and a fraud and a Satanist his entire life received so many it was because of back then he got away with it was today he would be it would have been shot jailed and killed within five years of his life of doing this s*** the same thing is true of Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist and scientologists.
Great video. Nemo -- do you think whoever makes these videos are just ignorant of the facts or do you think it is deliberate misrepresentation?
I think the person making them is just doing what they are told. This video in particular is just music text and stock video. May have been given to a PR intern? The Church media department under the supervision of the leaders of the church is ultimately responsible. And the church leaders definitely know some of the things in this video are untrue!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON It's based on a terrible book from the 70's that they never fact checked.
I just have to say, from the last four years of nonsense here in the USA, people are easily duped by CGI. Make it realistic enough and many people have a terrible time knowing the difference between what is real and what is not...surprised?
Another great video!
Thanks again!
Much of your video is filed with incorrect interpretations but you are clearly nor a believer and perhaps have an axe to grind with the Church. I would love to address many of your assumptions but this comment format is not the place.
You should know by now that the veracity of the BOM does not come by proving the authenticity of plates, the relationship of the 8 and 3 witnesses, or anything else of that nature. It is revealed to those who approach the subject and God with a sincere and humble heart - the holy ghost will reveal the truth of it into you.
Further, 'most correct book' refers to most correct doctrine, not the actual translation which has been edited (most of it for clarity although some of it, as you mentioned, to clarify doctrine). There were also two sets of plates.
Enjoyed your comments about a contemporary clip from LDS, Inc. Had me chuckling loud as I remember the very same arguments were used over 50 years ago in my high school seminary experience. Back then I was an avid reader and when these points were given about days of writing, number of words, creating new vocabularies, etc. I thought sitting their in class, wait a minute, Edgar Rice Burroughs created an entire civilization and culture on Mars, Frank Herbert created the Dune series, J. R. R. Tolkien created the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. There was nothing unique about what Joseph Smith claimed to have done and shame on LDS, Inc. suggesting so. As you stated there is no more archeological proof of the Book of Mormon than there is proof of a civilization on Mars.
Hell Elvish even had its own writing system.
You stated the Book of Mormon changed from the trinity outlook to more of a godhead outlook. What exactly is the difference?
The difference between trinity and godhead, or the difference between the two editions?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON the trinity at the godhead
@@isaacconder9901The trinity concept is like a 2 in shampoo kind of idea: both entities are actually the same entity. The Godhead is a team work concept: multiple individual beings with the same purpose.
When you spoke about the "timeframe" of 65 days for the writing of the BofM, you left out the 9 months afterwards they had for editing and revising before the actual first publication.
What do "Heartland" theorists & apologists do with JSJr's claim about the hill Cumorah in New York state?
Love this video. Nemo you are the bomb. I was so annoyed when my uncle thinks he is a genius for suggesting I couldn’t write the Book of Mormon, and I’m like you’re right cuz I have no interest in doing that but he’s 4 people that could-guy that wrote View of the hebrews for similar content, Tolkien lord of the rings for complexity, guy in Michigan that translated plates he dug up out of the ground for similarity of how, and dang I can’t remember the 4th example. And my uncle’s brilliant comeback was …yeah but u couldn’t.🤦♀️
I appreciate this, because after watching the video it's easy to be swayed as I'm sure many people are, until you logically break it down.
Well said. I wish to see video and hear argument that parses the possibility that the Book's historicity is not true yet the spiritual parts of the Book may be true. I wish the Church would make space for such a position.
Well that would depend on how you define something spiritual as true, given it has no physical state and therefore no physical evidence to test. I suppose you you could characterise it under utility maybe?
Subscribed 🤠🇧🇻
You, my dear friend, are subscriber number #1000!
if i was writing a book, it would not be repetitive like the Book of Mormon. I read part of 3rd Nephi recently, the part where Jesus came. it was so repetitive, I ended up stopping.
“How can it not be true?”
The answer is simple - if it was made up.
This entire video they put out is just an argument from incredulity mixed with some lies and distortions of facts. “Jo was as dumb as a rock in a hat, so he couldn’t have written a 531 page book in 65 days!” And yet he was entirely capable of reading the Bible, and coming up with elaborate and detailed stories about the Native Americans throughout his childhood and early teen years.
Nothing of what he did is remotely miraculous. There have been people who have had incredible memories, vivid imaginations, or other similar talents that would have been helpful in writing a book. For example, Handel’s Messiah was written in about a month and is considered one of the greatest compositions ever written.
The problem with Mormon apologists is that in order for the BoM to be a miracle, they have to assert that Joseph was a complete idiot with no mental capacities, no knowledge of anything but plowing dirt (and maybe women lol), and zero education. Otherwise there’s nothing particularly extraordinary about it. Of course, that’s not to say anyone could do it, but it’s certainly within the realm of possible for someone with a creative mind and a good memory.
Absolutely, it's insulting to Joseph Smith really! The gross underestimation of his abilities required is absurd.
Thanks for your comment as always!
@@julianpetersen43 JS was not stupid, just deceitful and he continues to fool the gullible!
@@julianpetersen43truth hurts ,don't it.
good points but i would say that in the end that the land probably wasn't hidden due to the fact that the Nephites kept on sinning it happens all the time in the BOM, and they were supposed to be the righteous ones so to assume that land was kept secret while they were doing all that stuff i wouldn't really say holds up
I think the point more is that they were the only ones there, and so they, as was believed by members of the church for years, were the progenitors of the Native Americans! A claim now soundly refuted and requiring a narrative shift!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON oh no i agree with that for sure
Great video Nemo
Thanks!
Alister Crowley’s book was supposedly written in an 8 hour period.
Smith and Crowley rent the same s*** as well as also another cult leader l.ron Hubbard he wrote his texts his book his so-called new scripture quote on quote unless the month if I remember right I think even shorter than that and it's around 500 pages.
That he was an ignorant farmboy that propagated Lie by their cult they lie about their so-called leader nobody knew how to read and write in an early age his father was a teacher as well as he was well aware of many different writing sources and can recite them easily as well as tell his mother long stories that could fill up or more than half of the bom just by Word of Mouth 👄. Smith had a very good talent to bs and and make long operations on it say if he didn't live back then he was here today and he was doing this kind of stuff except for a different reason he could actually have a entire Tonight Show basically we could entertain us with fictional stories then he went beep or you'll be actually being rich the right way at least you can actually do things for Earthly Bad Manners at least for a proper way and not try to destroy Christianity or even try to lie about Native people and lethally or that s***.
So do U believe that book is false or not true??just asking be specific yes or no
It seems like a perfect rebuttal to make a video entitled “How can the BofM be false?” You nailed that premises on the head! Enjoyed your video as always
Thanks!!
I regard Smith's BOOK OF MORMON as a mystery instead of history. There is not a single shred of evidence to support any of Smith's claims in the Book of Mormon. Smith wrote a book for a mid - nineteenth century audience living in a rural wilderness who believed in magic and ritual. The Book of Mormon needs to remain in the nineteenth century because Smith's book has no relevance outside the time and place in which the book was created and published.
The B.O.M. may have 531 pages. But:
1) There is a Topical Guide at the bottom of each page. Sometimes this takes up OVER A QUARTER of the page.
On average I guess about 15% of the page.
2) There are also explanatory paragraphs at the start of each chapter ( about one every two pages.) If both of these things were removed that would mean far fewer than 531 pages.
So, could someone please calculate the number of pages in the BOM if the Topic Guide and explanatory paragraphs were removed?
These two things are of course additional to the text. When people mention the ACTUAL TEXT not being so impressive in length, they might mention the Isaiah filler or other quotes from the Bible. But:
3) The way the book is written makes its length less impressive. It's wordy.
For example, why not take out all the unnecessary auxillary verbs? Instead of:
"I did cry unto the Lord and behold he did visit me?
Why not:
" I cried unto the Lord and he visited me?"
Without behold it is even shorter.
Great additional points, thank you!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON
The New Book of Mormon Challenge
Nemo, Could you calculate exactly how many pages the BOM would have if the following were removed?
1) BIble Quotes in the text (about 10% of the text. )
2) The Topical Guide... below the text.
3) Explanatory Paragraphs... before each chapter.
While 2 & 3 do not increase the word count of the actual TEXT of the BOM,
as they are not in it, they still increase the number of PAGES of the book overall to 531.
No.1, of course, increases both the length of the actual story and the book
I guess you would first somehow scan the pages and estimate the space taken up by 2 & 3.
Then see how removing them reduced the number of pages, perhaps to 450 ;
Then with only the text left reduce that by 10% leading to a page count of 405.
I have actually read that the KJV contribution is higher than 10%, but be generous.
Having done this you could then spend the next month, crossing out all the unecessary
"It came to passes," auxilliary verbs, relative pronouns, "beholds," passive constructions, adverbial phrases,
and repetition of possessive adjectives, leaving the following for example!
I Nephi ,born of goodly parents, was taught somewhat in the learning of my father,
And having seen many afflictions in the course of my days,
Yet being highly favoured of the Lord, and having great knowledge of His goodness and mysteries,
Therefore I make a record of my proceedings.
Your challenge is to get the book down to 300 pages! I think that's really the equivalent of what we have here.
@@Themanyfacesofego give it a little bit more I would give it most through in 25 but that alone still destroys the text but if we actually do a little closer check actually it's less than that I would say below 300 in the 200 not to mention that there was early drafts of its pieces prior to 1828. As well as proto drafts too. In 1827 not long after Smith was arrested charge for glass looking and occult practice why scamming which were also tied into his deliriousness and crazy behavior.
@@yaruqadishi8326 Writing the BOM took the effort of writing 250 page book, not a 530 one, and even those 250 pages are not particularly interesting.
@@Themanyfacesofego Yes indeed youre right very very right.
Thanks so much for doing this, great information.
Glad it was helpful!
"It came to past". That Nemo knows what he is talking about.
Joseph Smith didn't just "start dictating". From 1823 he was telling Book of Mormon stories to his family. There are many writers who never went that far.
I've wondered if the lost pages weren't very good, hence their loss being convenient.
If you believe this video, then I have some magical underwear I would like to sell you. It wards off evil.
Omg when did they begin turning comments off?.... on every single video! That is so wrong to do.. 🚩🚩🚩
Exactly, red flags!!!
I blame Kwaku and his snarky defense videos
As a curious new watcher and so far just at 2:47 of the video
I don’t see the big deal of them using a CGI of an old structure. It’s just painting a picture for the watcher. yeah they could’ve used a 4th real image or not.
Doesn’t seem to Matter to me…
8:50
You (Nemo) stating that the churches comment being contradicting compared to what’s said in the Book of Mormon is totally reaching in my opinion.
(2 Nephi 1:8-9)
As far as me watching and researching myself in record & Scripture. The Church not claiming to be a record of all inhabitants or Native American Ancestors lines up with what’s said in (2 Nephi 1:8-9) Book of Mormon..
It sticks to those three civilizations records.
It DOES say there will be other nations to come foot on that land but that’s every land on this earth. (A Very General Statement)
and in reading (2 Nephi 1:8-9)
it goes on to say if they do set foot on the land and so long as they keep the commandments they will prosper and won’t be influenced/bothered by outside forces of the world, “inheriting” the blessings and safety from our lord.
Amazing
Thanks pal!
Sad that you have that name. "Alma" which means young woman or virgin and is feminine set for a woman. Yet its a name of a man in smith's bom fan fiction of fan fiction.
It doesn’t matter if the Book of Mormon is true. God is With us..Within us..to Guide us and Help us..EveryDay! Stories in a book are just stories.
And it came to pass that nemo did debunk thy church's video
does the book of Mormon exist = yes
is it historically accurate = no
is it scientifically accurate = no
does the book contain plagiarised stories of other religions and cultures = yes
has this been proven = yes, many times.
D&C 24:1 - “Behold thou wast called and chosen to WRITE the Book of Mormon”….
Oops!
I gotta check this out!
I love your podcasts , Nemo. Keep them coming!
I like how that video makes unbelievably vague and sweeping claims with literally not a shredd of evidence/sources cited lol. It almost feels like a Mormon bearing their testimony but in video form. It's just words with absolutely no attempt to demonstrate a real argument with tangible evidence.
Now that the church isn’t doing the Pageant, maybe they’ll do an archeological dig on Cummorah and reveal chariots and horse skeletons and fine steel swords. Just kidding.
They've already sent a team, the report that came back was that it was an archaeologically clean hill
@@NEMOTHEMORMON A guy in my ex ward took his family camping upstate and they were beyond thrilled to have found Lamanite arrowheads near the Hill. And doesn’t that just prove there was a battle there? 🙄
They have to finish building it first, then tumble it & age it, then bury it again, & it shall come to pass they'll dredge it up & pay the right $ for someone to declare it bona fide dig & behold they shall stand before the press & pronounce it the true evidence of the bom that it's true, end of conversation, & thus shall they continue thereafter to stand on that & never make another answer and never sit down forevermore amen
I really appreciate your videos but am so confused as to how you see all of the church deception and fraud and still the a faithful member??????? You are a very interesting human.
I’ll take the compliment hahaha!
It’s so true!
Aside from surrounding circumstances, the book itself contains very little. There are gaps of hundreds of years in the timeline, paraphrasing of Bible stories, paraphrasing of the book itself, events narrated where the was no witness present, just like the Bible, same structure for many stories. Pages and chapters of just someone passing the plates down to the next person. A large amount of filler and fluff. Every war or battle described in the same way. Also many historical errors, anachronisms and contradictions, and the caveat of "if there are errors, they're the faults of men". Even though it's supposed to be "the most correct book" ever, whatever that means. If two books tell you to be nice to others, they are both equally correct, in that point. A basic math book will always be far more correct, if by that we mean that the facts presented are true and can be confirmed.
The original Mormons:
Joseph Smith Jr. (December 23, 1805 - June 27, 1844)
a good looking and intelligent young man from a penniless upstate New York family; professional buried treasure hunter.
Oliver H. P. Cowdery (October 3, 1806 - March 3, 1850)
a school teacher who boarded with the Smith family
David Whitmer (January 7, 1805 - January 25, 1888)
farmer; friend of Oliver Cowdery
Martin Harris (May 18, 1783 - July 10, 1875)
prosperous farmer; employer of Joseph Smith Sr.
the Smith family
Joseph Smith Sr. (July 12, 1771 - September 14, 1840)
father of Joseph Smith Jr.
Emma Hale Smith Bidamon (July 10, 1804 - April 30, 1879)
wife of Joseph Smith Jr
Hyrum Smith (February 9, 1800 - June 27, 1844)
brother of Joseph Smith Jr
Samuel Harrison Smith (13 March 1808 - 30 July 1844)
brother of Joseph Smith Jr.
the Whitmer family
Jacob Whitmer (February 2, 1800 - April 21, 1856)
brother of David Whitmer
John Whitmer (August 27, 1802 - July 11, 1878)
brother of David Whitmer
Christian Whitmer (January 18, 1798 - November 27, 1835)
brother of David Whitmer
Peter Whitmer Jr. (September 27, 1809 - September 22, 1836)
brother of David Whitmer
Hiram Page (c. 1800-August 12, 1852)
brother in law of David Whitmer
Apparently after 1826, Joseph Smith Jr realized that his fraudulent treasure hunting career was a failure and he began thinking about a career as a religious leader and false prophet.
In 1829, Smith met poor school teacher Cowdery and they put together a book based on the King James Bible, View of the Hebrews published in 1823 by Ethan Smith (no relation, although he was an acquaintance of Cowdery) and their own imagination. Whitmer and his family joined the conspiracy probably in hope of becoming religious leaders and escaping a hard life of farming. Harris was conned into providing the money.
So basically the foundation of Mormonism was the beauty (Smith) the brains (Cowdery) the money (Harris) and the Whitmers who jumped on the bandwagon. Three very young, 25 year old, men and one middle aged man who paid the bills, along with most of the Smith and Whitmer families, founded Mormonism.
The Book of Mormon went on sale March 26, 1830. The LDS church opened for business in Smith’s home on April 6, 1830.
In 1835 Smith and Cowdery published a sequel to the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants. Since then various other scriptures have been published, such as the Pearl of Great Price, and Mormon prophets and prophecies continue to this day. Mormonism broke up into competing sects after the death of Smith.
From 1850 to 1900, tens of thousands of Mormon converts from poor districts of Denmark, Sweden, England and Germany poured into Utah. They formed the basis of the present Utah population.
There have been no large scale conversions since 1900, partially because Mormons had no interest in converting non-white people.
The center of Mormonism today is Provo, Utah, a suburb of Salt Lake City, which is 90% Mormon and 90% white and home to Brigham Young University. (Like the rest of the country, Utah has had a significant and growing Hispanic population since 1990. Someone has to wash the toilets.) Utah is definitely the world center of Mormonism, with only small communities scattered elsewhere.
Mormons are characterized by being very kind and friendly to each other and to potential converts, devoutly religious and somewhat white supremacist. Most Mormons have a lifestyle reminiscent of the United States in the 1950’s. They also do not drink or smoke. A minority practice polygamy and forced child marriage. (Starting in 1841, after becoming the leader of Nauvoo, Illinois, Smith began having sex with any woman he could get his hands on and some Mormon men to this day have tried to follow in his footsteps. One, Warren Jeffs, is serving life in prison as a result.)
Where are the plates of bronze??????
The Book of Mormon proves itself. It doesn’t need anyone to prove it. To anyone who says it isn’t true, I challenge them to write a book comparable to The Book of Mormon. They won’t even start the task because they’ll know it’s impossible. The Book of Mormon was written by the Prophets of God we Latter-day Saints day it was.
Sincerely hope you look into the truths and words spoken by your political leaders too and not take them at face value
Where are you looking bro?
Be nice. Medical condition known as strabismus. Educate yourself.
Stop being so factual!
You're ruining all the fun!
Sorry 😬
And the tree of life came from his father.
This is just another system that has been taken over by mans need to control. Legal, medical, political, and i know add this church. I always knew the members didnt follow. Oh well keep my hands in the earth, face towards Christ, reliance on the Spirit, and Dependency of Gods Will and ALL WILL BE WELL !! Thanks for using your skills.
You're a fake.
"Because no matter how many people thinks something is true it doesn't make it so."
I make your words mine!
Glad you liked it!
It also works the other way round no matter how many think its untrue does not make it so.
All depends on you perspective at the time
@@Cyrusmagi I totally agree with you! If we both agree feeling can be deceiving how can we know what is true?
@@samantacm8048 it depends on what type of feeling your referring to. A personal experience which involves the Mind, body and other senses which some people experience and remember for many years can be described as a deep spirtual experience.
That might make something they believe in like the existence of a loving being or divine intelligence very real!
Its a very personal thing, they might share or they might not. If they do share and others dont believe them it does not make that experience untrue or false.
For the experience is theirs and was meant to be so.
You can say that experience is false but how wd you know?
Just because some writer from the past has said it cannot be relied upon, or its a line in the new testament that may have many meani ngs out of context or in context.
If you believe a thing is impossible you never likely to believe it could be possible until something significant changes yr mind. That all starts with the notion i really want to know if?
@@CyrusmagiI think in this case what I am refering is mormons tend to claim they know to be the true church because of "feelings", this normally happens when contradicted with insconsitencies from mormon theology and biblical theology, Joseph Smith and Church History. I agree with you that the Bible can be taken out of context that's why you must read at least the whole chapter, study the context at that time and so on... Mormon theology takes the NT out of the context many times, eternal marriage, exaltation, becoming Gods and so on... I believe one is free to believe in whatever he wants but at the same time I believe critical thinking is a must, something unfortunally I don't see on LDS Church where you must research within the Church approved sources or you will be lead astray.
How can it not be true ? Only to those who think they can fight God and win.
Oh come on! The Book of Mormon is so complex, who in the world could have written it! Joseph Smith? impossible! Ideas from the "View of the Hebrews" or "Solomon Spaulding's manuscript? Ridiculous! Come on Capt. Nemo, your very intelligent, WHO???
Are you being sarcastic I hope you are because cuz if so your sarcasm defeats you. Going through that book it's not complex it's actually quite simply stupid and fabricated almost on every page close study of its background formulated shows in fact it is fraud.
Alma and Nephi have so many suspicious errors and fabrications in them their inability to actually read as well as the names are fabricated let alone more than half of their content is already forged by Bible texts view the Hebrews Etc
It was Smith Smith shows proof tea in fact with a smart kid and could read and write and was very intelligent why is early teens even prior to 1820
@@ronalddunlap9933 wrong sir I do know what I'm talking about because I have read it and I know people who have read it in-depth again and again you don't know what you're talkin about because you've never studied it you never ask a question that are challenged it or even looked at it or even seen the errors and it in the flaws in it they're so crappy so terrible because you're introduced and brainwashed into Ally never questioned it and never realized how false upon fake upon fake it is that is sick and sad
@@ronalddunlap9933 you need a lot of help and you need to get really smacked around in order to get yourself fixed because you will have no idea where the light is
Why do you call your self a Mormon if you are are contly making fale claimes and talking against it.if you do not believe in the church why do you stay in the church
btw we still need to go airsofting when lockdown is over i've missed ol buddy :)
This is where i'm scratching my brains to work out who this is! Drop me a line on Facebook!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON sure thing bud