Issue for me is I'm still waiting to have that campaign that convinces me FB ads are worth it. Granted, ive not done dozens of campaigns and sunk hundreds of dollars into it yet, but I follow channels like yours to the letter when constructing my ads, making lots of ad variants with lots of different demographics targeted. In my most recent follower gate campaign, I spent £40 in a week - I gained virtually no new followers and my listener numbers didnt change and only 40 people converted. So I find it hard to justify FB ads when im paying £1 per listen...
Ads aren't meant to attain conversions instantly, it's more about exposure than conversion. The average consumer has to see a product ad 3 times before being convinced to take action. Focus on reach/impressions over clicks or listens. They don't tell you that but that's just basic marketing facts. How often did you offline have to see a product on a billboard etc before you decided to try it? And online, did you click on the ad to take action immediately or did you take time? Was the ad giving value to you or it was blatant product placement?
You give great advice, This video helped me solve a great problem. I've recently been the most active i've ever been in my music career and using different techniques and this video confirms i've been using a bad one. Yeah I get tons of streams using playlist but the followership is stagnant, it makes total sense now. I watched another video of yours about Toneden and i spent 30 dollars to test it out and I had a significant jump in my followers. Keep up the great content!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As someone who's watched your videos for months now, you've gotten a lot better and are clearly more comfortable behind the camera. Just wanted to let you know. your vids keep getting better and better.
Hey Tom, the timing of your video is great. I released a new single on July 30 and naturally I added playlist pitching into my mix of activities. I received the same comments from various playlisters regarding the mix and balance, which is truly ridiculous since the new song it was mixed at a pro studio. Lots of positive comments though, but they didn't see that song fitting into the genre of the playlists. In any event, I've yet to be added to any playlist and while I await word from various playlisters I was able to independently gain many many new followers, streams, and listeners from my direct and indirect promotion/PR activities (which included various video ads). I'm having trouble tracking any one specific thing that I've done to warrant so many Spotify plays, particularly from countries and cities I've never reached out to, but my music video has been shared/liked on Facebook 3-4 times more in 2 weeks than my most successful video ever (and that was over a few months). I would like to think that my video is driving people to the song the way MTV used to do, but that might wishful thinking.
This is a great question. To really dig into long-term fans is a multi-tiered process of targeting people with similar interests to engage with your content and your music and then retargeting them to bring them down the funnel to earn their email address, get them to follow you, etc. From there, it's a matter of engaging with them and earning their time and attention. At the core though, all of this is much easier when we make music they just love at first listen.
Booked a 1 to 1 session with Tom to set up a campaign properly after lot of unsuccessful tries on my own and I'm really happy with the result and the call ! By the way nice inexpected french skills aha :)
@@tomdupreeiii lol indeed in the nick of time. Could you clarify though what would you say determines "good playlists" as appose to hitting up curators? You mentioned good playlists will find your music with the right marketing and promo
omg this makes so much sense! I don't know why we chase playlists like that! Better spend this time to create meaningful connections with fans! Thank you
Great video dude!.. as always. Can you make a video showing a summary of your highest and lowest cost per conversion rate and how it's changed over your entire music career? And maybe talk about what you did wrong or right at the time. That would be real helpful I reckon, and perhaps a popular video for your channel. Show us more of that magical spread sheet haha. I just want to drink all of your secret sauce! (not in a weird way though)
They are great from an SEO perspective but it’s just a lot of work for not a lot of payoff. The best move is to treat blogs as a slow burn. Continuously cultivate relationships and grow a network you can rely on for every release.
Organic growth is simply momentum in action. The more you do and the longer you do it, the greater the odds of success become. Sticking with it is the key to organic growth.
I still think it can be worth it if you are not shotgunning your song into playlists they don’t belong in. A lot of playlists are run by massive music fans that are into sharing their tastes with their friends. If you find a playlist that is exactly your niche definitely reach out. They are also often run by other artists in your genre and it is a good way to start a relationship.
Yo Tom! Just stumbled onto your website and shopify page would love to see a video of you talking about those, how to set them up and possibly touch on how they work for you :)
Pitching to Spotify's editorial playlists within Spotify for Artists is definitely legit. I'd recommend always doing that for every release. Just don't "pay to play" with the independent services.
This is a good video and frankly it is the common opinion in music marketing these days. I am still doing playlist pitching for a few reasons, but I might stop at some point. Reasons: 1. My conversions with FB ads were ridiculous. It was literally flushing money down the toilet. Zero ROI. Maybe I'm not a FB ad guru. It will be expensive to become one I'm pretty sure. Also any marketing service that offers advertising for independent musicians is a scam unfortunately so you can't outsource to the experts like you can with most things. 2. I believe "social proof" matters for music listeners (probably why Spotify puts metrics on the artist pages) and playlists are a reasonable way to get the song an audience if curators like it. 3. I am a frequent listener of user playlists, and I save/follow all the time if I love the song. I have found thousands of artists this way. Some playlist listeners are passive I'm sure, but not all of them. Through playlists the # of followers did double. Granted the followers/monthly listener ratio isn't great, but it did help. 4. I still saw plenty of algorithmic plays in the past couple of releases even though some say that playlists automatically kill algorithmic plays. 5. The marketing I'm doing was for a collaboration with an artist that already has a sizeable organic fanbase via touring, social media, etc, but that didn't translate to streams for them. Ticket sales, yes, but not streams. Not saying I know the answer to this... Does appear that making friends with the "algorithm" helps, but how to do that in a cost effective way isn't clear.
What if Facebook Ads didn't work for you, you already have a bad save rate and low streams - but high repeat listeners, do you think it's worth it to full it with streams so you can get your track popularity up to try and get on the release radar playlists the first month? That's what I am up to this moment, I think my only option is to try and get my popularity track up to see if I will have a shot on release radars as it is my 3rd chance this friday to get on it. Also my experience is that with very bad stats after I reached about 27 - 28 popularity on another song I still got on disover weekly and I still am but with low streams.
Absolutely agree. I've done this over a year, with almost 100.000 streams, but very few followers and repeated listeners. Pursuing playlists does nothing for expanding your fanbase, except for I got on an official editorial playlist by Spotify, and that seems to give some algorithmic spin-off. Tbh, ad campaigns also haven't proven fruitful to increase followers so far. Streams, yes, followers, no. The campaigns sort of pays for themselves, but doesn't add up. I don't do live shows, although that would increase the fanbase, and I've started pitching to radios, but that is hard to track the effect of. Do you have any experience with radio, or ideas on how to work into that?
This is so useful 🙏 About the feedback, it can be pertinent in only one case: if the reviewer asks for a score to make an analytical review of the work with respect to Harmony, Instrumentation, Engraving, Orchestration... And all the "Conventional" elements of Composition in the frame of predetermined Style/Gender. Asking someone for a feedback based on listening is just equivalent to asking anyone, even non-musician, if he likes the music: We should never pay for subjective opinion 😁 That's at least what I learned from my classical approach based on knowledge neither than taste. Thanks Tom for all what you giving us 🙏❤️
This is a hot take for sure. And based on your reasoning, I'm inclined to agree with you. However, how are you confident that ads make true fans more than playlists?
The whole thing is a bit of a con for unsigned artists. I'm just coming up to a year and pitched my latest song to Spotify. Think the odds are similar to a small lottery win of being accepted but anythings possible.
@@tomdupreeiii Facebook and Instagram ads are very competitive and expensive. I noticed most people on social media are usually not in a listening mood at the time so they just waste your ad. You have to retarget them over and over. Most people usually don't care for a new artist they are not familiar with... except you create a challenge or trend.. Just my thought.
I believe you are just angry and just talking about your experience , Playlist pitching is an important part as radio pitching , music supervisor pitching , marketing campaings etc etc , there is not absolute truth, The most important thing is having a good song , a listener is a listener, it wont matter where the listener is , radio or digital store , in fact people listen more to spotify than to radio and you have more chances to gain a listener on spotify than on radio, if the listener likes the song he will save you , on radio he must remember lyrics and search or i don't know . Anything guarantees anything not even songs pushed by labels are a guarantee. If Playlists are well curated with 100% organic listeners artists have great chances .
Issue for me is I'm still waiting to have that campaign that convinces me FB ads are worth it. Granted, ive not done dozens of campaigns and sunk hundreds of dollars into it yet, but I follow channels like yours to the letter when constructing my ads, making lots of ad variants with lots of different demographics targeted. In my most recent follower gate campaign, I spent £40 in a week - I gained virtually no new followers and my listener numbers didnt change and only 40 people converted. So I find it hard to justify FB ads when im paying £1 per listen...
Ads aren't meant to attain conversions instantly, it's more about exposure than conversion. The average consumer has to see a product ad 3 times before being convinced to take action. Focus on reach/impressions over clicks or listens. They don't tell you that but that's just basic marketing facts. How often did you offline have to see a product on a billboard etc before you decided to try it? And online, did you click on the ad to take action immediately or did you take time? Was the ad giving value to you or it was blatant product placement?
You give great advice, This video helped me solve a great problem. I've recently been the most active i've ever been in my music career and using different techniques and this video confirms i've been using a bad one. Yeah I get tons of streams using playlist but the followership is stagnant, it makes total sense now. I watched another video of yours about Toneden and i spent 30 dollars to test it out and I had a significant jump in my followers. Keep up the great content!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As someone who's watched your videos for months now, you've gotten a lot better and are clearly more comfortable behind the camera. Just wanted to let you know. your vids keep getting better and better.
Man thank you for this comment. Glad to know I’m improving!
Hey Tom, the timing of your video is great. I released a new single on July 30 and naturally I added playlist pitching into my mix of activities. I received the same comments from various playlisters regarding the mix and balance, which is truly ridiculous since the new song it was mixed at a pro studio. Lots of positive comments though, but they didn't see that song fitting into the genre of the playlists. In any event, I've yet to be added to any playlist and while I await word from various playlisters I was able to independently gain many many new followers, streams, and listeners from my direct and indirect promotion/PR activities (which included various video ads). I'm having trouble tracking any one specific thing that I've done to warrant so many Spotify plays, particularly from countries and cities I've never reached out to, but my music video has been shared/liked on Facebook 3-4 times more in 2 weeks than my most successful video ever (and that was over a few months). I would like to think that my video is driving people to the song the way MTV used to do, but that might wishful thinking.
Agreed on the principles! Problem is would the ads find my fans...? How to run ads to find my true fans?
This is a great question. To really dig into long-term fans is a multi-tiered process of targeting people with similar interests to engage with your content and your music and then retargeting them to bring them down the funnel to earn their email address, get them to follow you, etc. From there, it's a matter of engaging with them and earning their time and attention. At the core though, all of this is much easier when we make music they just love at first listen.
I love your content Tom! ❣
Thanks so much!
Booked a 1 to 1 session with Tom to set up a campaign properly after lot of unsuccessful tries on my own and I'm really happy with the result and the call ! By the way nice inexpected french skills aha :)
Dude, I'm so glad I could help! And happy to hear the results have been good. Thanks for suffering through my attempt to speak French 😆
Why not do both? I don’t completely agree with you but you do have a point
I wish I saw this video last year. I really slept on your channel last year😞
Hey you're here now, and that's what matters!
@@tomdupreeiii thanks alot 🙏
Great advice. Don't ask for permission to go in the front door, find the side door entrance and go in yourself.
💯💯💯
Thank you for talking some sense into us new artists man! I like your mindset
I appreciate that!
Literally got this video notification AS I was searching and dm'in playlist curators lol oh man 🤦🏾♀️
Haha! Wow. This video rode in on the white horse to save you some time and money!
@@tomdupreeiii lol indeed in the nick of time. Could you clarify though what would you say determines "good playlists" as appose to hitting up curators? You mentioned good playlists will find your music with the right marketing and promo
omg this makes so much sense! I don't know why we chase playlists like that! Better spend this time to create meaningful connections with fans! Thank you
Great video dude!.. as always. Can you make a video showing a summary of your highest and lowest cost per conversion rate and how it's changed over your entire music career? And maybe talk about what you did wrong or right at the time. That would be real helpful I reckon, and perhaps a popular video for your channel. Show us more of that magical spread sheet haha. I just want to drink all of your secret sauce! (not in a weird way though)
Does this include all Spotify playlists, I.e. editorial and algorithmic too or just independent user playlists
Independent ones only
Are blogs a waste too
They are great from an SEO perspective but it’s just a lot of work for not a lot of payoff. The best move is to treat blogs as a slow burn. Continuously cultivate relationships and grow a network you can rely on for every release.
Honestly, I still don't understand what organic growth means or how to get into that momentum to create an organic growth.
Organic growth is simply momentum in action. The more you do and the longer you do it, the greater the odds of success become. Sticking with it is the key to organic growth.
@@tomdupreeiii And finally the answer is here. thank you very much Sir for enlighten me.
I still think it can be worth it if you are not shotgunning your song into playlists they don’t belong in. A lot of playlists are run by massive music fans that are into sharing their tastes with their friends. If you find a playlist that is exactly your niche definitely reach out. They are also often run by other artists in your genre and it is a good way to start a relationship.
Yo Tom! Just stumbled onto your website and shopify page would love to see a video of you talking about those, how to set them up and possibly touch on how they work for you :)
Definitely! I plan to start incorporating both of those into my channel content in the future for sure!
@@tomdupreeiii oh amazing stuff! Man it’s strange you replied right now no cap I’m vibing to Hero in my gaming playlist right now lol
My journey just started, but I think you're right 🙈 What about playlist pitching on Spotify for artists? Any thoughts on this one? 🧐
Pitching to Spotify's editorial playlists within Spotify for Artists is definitely legit. I'd recommend always doing that for every release. Just don't "pay to play" with the independent services.
@@tomdupreeiii alrighty! Thanks for your help! 😎
But they won't add you if don't have significant amounts of followers or monthly listeners.
You're right. Thanks mate
You bet. Glad you agree!
This is a good video and frankly it is the common opinion in music marketing these days. I am still doing playlist pitching for a few reasons, but I might stop at some point. Reasons:
1. My conversions with FB ads were ridiculous. It was literally flushing money down the toilet. Zero ROI. Maybe I'm not a FB ad guru. It will be expensive to become one I'm pretty sure. Also any marketing service that offers advertising for independent musicians is a scam unfortunately so you can't outsource to the experts like you can with most things.
2. I believe "social proof" matters for music listeners (probably why Spotify puts metrics on the artist pages) and playlists are a reasonable way to get the song an audience if curators like it.
3. I am a frequent listener of user playlists, and I save/follow all the time if I love the song. I have found thousands of artists this way. Some playlist listeners are passive I'm sure, but not all of them. Through playlists the # of followers did double. Granted the followers/monthly listener ratio isn't great, but it did help.
4. I still saw plenty of algorithmic plays in the past couple of releases even though some say that playlists automatically kill algorithmic plays.
5. The marketing I'm doing was for a collaboration with an artist that already has a sizeable organic fanbase via touring, social media, etc, but that didn't translate to streams for them. Ticket sales, yes, but not streams.
Not saying I know the answer to this... Does appear that making friends with the "algorithm" helps, but how to do that in a cost effective way isn't clear.
Hey Tom great vid,I am confused as to why it can’t be both user generated playlist submission And FB adds?
What if Facebook Ads didn't work for you, you already have a bad save rate and low streams - but high repeat listeners, do you think it's worth it to full it with streams so you can get your track popularity up to try and get on the release radar playlists the first month? That's what I am up to this moment, I think my only option is to try and get my popularity track up to see if I will have a shot on release radars as it is my 3rd chance this friday to get on it. Also my experience is that with very bad stats after I reached about 27 - 28 popularity on another song I still got on disover weekly and I still am but with low streams.
Also my stats atm: 2.36 repeat rate, 4.75% save rate.
Absolutely agree. I've done this over a year, with almost 100.000 streams, but very few followers and repeated listeners. Pursuing playlists does nothing for expanding your fanbase, except for I got on an official editorial playlist by Spotify, and that seems to give some algorithmic spin-off. Tbh, ad campaigns also haven't proven fruitful to increase followers so far. Streams, yes, followers, no. The campaigns sort of pays for themselves, but doesn't add up. I don't do live shows, although that would increase the fanbase, and I've started pitching to radios, but that is hard to track the effect of. Do you have any experience with radio, or ideas on how to work into that?
I totally agree!
🙏🏻🙏🏻
This is so useful 🙏
About the feedback, it can be pertinent in only one case: if the reviewer asks for a score to make an analytical review of the work with respect to Harmony, Instrumentation, Engraving, Orchestration... And all the "Conventional" elements of Composition in the frame of predetermined Style/Gender.
Asking someone for a feedback based on listening is just equivalent to asking anyone, even non-musician, if he likes the music: We should never pay for subjective opinion 😁
That's at least what I learned from my classical approach based on knowledge neither than taste.
Thanks Tom for all what you giving us 🙏❤️
This is a hot take for sure. And based on your reasoning, I'm inclined to agree with you. However, how are you confident that ads make true fans more than playlists?
BIG FACTS
Yeah!
I thought so. Ty. For saving our time
The whole thing is a bit of a con for unsigned artists. I'm just coming up to a year and pitched my latest song to Spotify. Think the odds are similar to a small lottery win of being accepted but anythings possible.
Yep, you're exactly right. It's just a big lottery ticket.
100% okay with that.
Glad you agree!
💯💯💯
🙏🏻🙏🏻
Great video just the truth and no BS!
Facebook ads are a complete disaster. Probably the reason for the recent class-action lawsuit filed against them.
Spoke a lot of truth in my opinion
Glad you agree. And love the screen name btw.
Totally agree and you are 100 percent correct
Got for free on playlist with 20.000 followers
Boom. Running ads will result in good playlist adds over time.
Hey, its cool submmit music to Spotify curator...you can enter in some official playlist...nothing to loose, my opinion.
Agreed 100%
💯💯
Bruh then tf do we do😭
“Hurry up and wait.” - Auron
Direct and organic marketing. Facebook and Instagram ads is where it’s at!
@@tomdupreeiii Facebook and Instagram ads are very competitive and expensive. I noticed most people on social media are usually not in a listening mood at the time so they just waste your ad. You have to retarget them over and over.
Most people usually don't care for a new artist they are not familiar with... except you create a challenge or trend.. Just my thought.
Hard agree with you on all these points Tom
Truth
It is pointless
Dude, 💯
First!
Love it!
I believe you are just angry and just talking about your experience , Playlist pitching is an important part as radio pitching , music supervisor pitching , marketing campaings etc etc , there is not absolute truth, The most important thing is having a good song , a listener is a listener, it wont matter where the listener is , radio or digital store , in fact people listen more to spotify than to radio and you have more chances to gain a listener on spotify than on radio, if the listener likes the song he will save you , on radio he must remember lyrics and search or i don't know . Anything guarantees anything not even songs pushed by labels are a guarantee. If Playlists are well curated with 100% organic listeners artists have great chances .
So true, total waste. If you have to submit to something, try blogs! :D
Yep, absolutely!