31:46 It’s unsettling how many of these “cult characteristics” like opposing critical thinking, isolating and punishing dissection, requiring inappropriate demonstrations of loyalty, are exemplified in Trinitarian churches, in defense of the Trinity.
If you believe that ministers and theologians are not qualified to define and identify what constitutes a cult, then do you really think it is appropriate for you to eliminate the term altogether? Try telling a former cult member that it's best for them not to view the groups that they narrowly escaped with their souls as a cult and see how that goes for you. The overall impression I gather from this presentation is one of defensiveness, i.e., "As a Unitarian, I've personally been labeled as part of a cult, so I will work to eliminate that term because it offends me." It's a common tactic to lean on academic authority (scholars) to bolster your claims, but let me be clear: if any of those so-called experts who criticize the term "cult" had firsthand experience with one, their perspective would change very quickly. There's a common belief that 4th-century Christianity eradicated paganism, but in reality, it assimilated many of its elements. Having been raised in Catholicism, I view it and its reformation counterparts as the most significant cult movements in history. It might be worthwhile to explore the psychology of projection, as that seems to be what evangelicals are engaging in with Biblical Unitarians. And I want to clarify that my intention is not to alienate or create divisions, nor to cause any offense. I genuinely believe it's the truth. From my experience, the essence of a cult identity is deeply tied to the collective worship of a group that is fundamentally rooted in idolatry. This idolatry is less about strict doctrines and more about the actions and practices of the group. Therefore, even if you don't explicitly adhere to a trinitarian understanding of Christ, engaging in a trinitarian eucharist, for instance, connects you to that idolatry through your participation in the ritual. I'll finish by saying that it's completely understandable to feel hesitant about labeling others with a term that may have caused you distress. However, completely dismissing it suggests that the focus may be more on your feelings than on the reality of the situation. You can express love and kindness towards those in differing Christological camps without outright accusing them of being the descendant of a 4th-century Roman pagan cult movement. Yet, ignoring these elements entirely won't serve anyone well either. No one would blink an eye if you referred to the ancient Greek or Roman pagan religions as cults, because that’s precisely what they were. In other words, accusing a Trinitarian of being part of the largest cult movement in history is likely not a productive approach. However, it can be beneficial to recognize this perspective when discussing Unitarianism with them. If anything, gaining this understanding can foster greater empathy towards Trinitarians because they really do need help. Don't make it about you.
The point is that the term “cult” had a defined meaning, especially within Dr. Chandler’s field of religious studies, that then was redefined to be useful only as a slur. There are more accurate terms to describe the harmful qualities you mention, such as “high control”. The term “cult” has been used to falsely correlate abusive behavior to a certain set of doctrinal positions when there is no correlation between the two. Defending unitarians against this kind of slander isn’t about taking personal offense, it is about identifying fallacious claims by trinitarians and not leaving those falsehoods unchallenged.
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance I completely agree that the term "cult" is often misused. However, is the solution to eliminate the label entirely? That seems to oversimplify the issue. Instead, let us focus on gaining a clearer understanding of what genuinely warrants that designation, rather than ignoring its existence. To address your point about the term "high control," in my experience, it fails to capture the essence of what defines a cult. While some cults are clearly authoritarian, others may not exhibit such overt control. If I were to ask the average person if they view Catholicism as a cult, the answer would likely be no. When probed for a reason, they might say it’s because individuals can freely come and go. However, this perspective overlooks the experiences of those raised in the faith, who have been baptized and participated in various sacraments, often intertwining their identities with the religion. For them, leaving could mean severing family connections, which represents a profound level of control. Thus, the term itself can be misleading and complex. Even for the adult convert, if they are led to believe that the Catholic church is the one true church, well then it's implied that salvation lies solely within its walls. In my view, the definition is quite simple. A "cult" can be identified as a pagan religion, period end. Instead, we should concentrate on what defines paganism, which is where Christology and rituals become significant. It begins with core beliefs, which then filter through the priesthood and are solidified in their rituals.
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance That's correct, that was Keegan's point, and it was a valid term to denote liturgy and worship practices - nothing offensive or accusative.
Well, folks, according to the authors quoted by Keegan, I am the proudest heretic to walk the face of the earth. If Nicaea determines orthodoxy, then I am as cultish as they get and hold fast to it.
So important to understand the deliberate stigma associated with the word "cult." And that it is used deliberately to cast aspersions on alternate versions of Christology than that promulgated by the Catholic Church in centuries long ago. I have to also point out that the actions of assigning unitarianism to evil behaviors reminds me too much of the way antisemitism developed and spread over the centuries. It's a tactic of the enemy.
The catholic church is the original "christian cult" It closely resembles Mystery Babylon Religion with their three gods and their goddess, the mother of god.
It is interesting to think how the Council of Trent used the word to characterise Protestants in the 16th century. To this day the name given for any Protestant church in France is "La Culte" - this being used because the nation was dominated by Roman Catholics for several centuries after the Council. Now the Protestants (or at least some of them) are using the same tactic on people that they don't like.
I expressed similar thoughts myself. That theological positions should define what a "cult" is, but the harmful behaviours and control mechanisms certain religions have, should be what defines as such. I myself 'have' had direct experience in being part of a cult from childhood, and getting out of it by means of my independent study of the Bible. I hold to Unitarian positions (pre-existent), merely because of my understanding of the Bible. Not because I'm in or am running some high control movement. To quote some what I have already written on the matter: "It is common knowledge that the Catholic Church, as well as some of the early Protestant Churches did all in their power to suppress what they believed to be heretical, which included things such as: Restricting the Bible from the common people The Inquisitions Physical torture of heretics Slow and painful executions (often by burning at the stake) Labelling any who had a theological disagreement to the mainstream Church as a “damnable heretic” or “demon possessed” All these things can be labelled as cult behaviours. When the Trinity doctrine was first made to be unquestionable in the 4th century, it came with military Roman state power and persecution to those who disagreed (and there were a lot of people who disagreed). Cruel methods used to keep heretics in line, though people of a differing Christological view didn’t pose a threat to society or anyone’s wellbeing, oddly enough, seem to match several of the criteria of what makes a “cult” aforementioned above. Though today Catholic and Protestant churches are seen as “normal and mainstream” and not cultish at all in the eyes of most, the irony is that historically, they could be labelled as some of the biggest cults in history. Their methods of control were extremely unchristian, using scare tactics, information control and suppression, slanderous name calling, and grotesque violence, all just to silence a few dissenting voices who came to believe the mainstream interpretations of the scriptures from the Churches, were wrong or at the very least, questionable Only by the 1600s and onward, after these churches slowly began to lose their power and the world becoming more secularised, with the scriptures finally back into the hands of all people freely to read, were dissenting voices given the breathing room to finally be able to “come out of the closet” so to speak, without threat of torture and violence. But by that time, certain doctrines become so mainstream, only certain kinds of people would be willing to begin to question them, and with that then comes a lot of baggage. To be a non-trinitarian in a world where the Trintiy is mainstream, and constantly upheld by a large voice to be the “center of Christianity” and “vital to salvation”, it takes some big “cahoonas” to stand up against, and this means that only certain kinds of people will stand up: The extremely brave The individualist The contrarian The insane It is true that many cultus are of non-trinitarian leanings, but the historical trinitarian churches acted like cults too. Why is it the case today that many high control groups are non-trinitarian? It's because cults often thrive by being “different” to the rest. They attract members by “sticking out” amongst the crowd, and this differentiation also serves to separate them from those around them also, making their members feel like they have something “unique and special”. As non-trinitarianism isn’t as popular as trinitarianism, this makes the doctrine a prime tool to add to the cultist’s arsenal, along with any other doctrines that are not as mainstream, whether or not they be true or false. But let's keep the term "cult" separate from debates on theology. Because there have been both cults and non-cults, of all positions.
There were many cults in the 1970s: Catholics, Muslims, Trinitarians, Calvinists, Sabbath Keepers, Tora Keepers, Jesus People, Moonies, Hare Krishna, World Wide Church of God, Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way, The Manson Family, Jim Jones' People's Temple, David Koresh's Branch Davidians, and all the Oriental Religions. They were all non-Christian cults. Some of them are still around. Torah keeping"christians" seem to be common.
Excellent presentation!
31:46 It’s unsettling how many of these “cult characteristics” like opposing critical thinking, isolating and punishing dissection, requiring inappropriate demonstrations of loyalty, are exemplified in Trinitarian churches, in defense of the Trinity.
If you believe that ministers and theologians are not qualified to define and identify what constitutes a cult, then do you really think it is appropriate for you to eliminate the term altogether? Try telling a former cult member that it's best for them not to view the groups that they narrowly escaped with their souls as a cult and see how that goes for you.
The overall impression I gather from this presentation is one of defensiveness, i.e., "As a Unitarian, I've personally been labeled as part of a cult, so I will work to eliminate that term because it offends me." It's a common tactic to lean on academic authority (scholars) to bolster your claims, but let me be clear: if any of those so-called experts who criticize the term "cult" had firsthand experience with one, their perspective would change very quickly.
There's a common belief that 4th-century Christianity eradicated paganism, but in reality, it assimilated many of its elements. Having been raised in Catholicism, I view it and its reformation counterparts as the most significant cult movements in history. It might be worthwhile to explore the psychology of projection, as that seems to be what evangelicals are engaging in with Biblical Unitarians. And I want to clarify that my intention is not to alienate or create divisions, nor to cause any offense. I genuinely believe it's the truth.
From my experience, the essence of a cult identity is deeply tied to the collective worship of a group that is fundamentally rooted in idolatry. This idolatry is less about strict doctrines and more about the actions and practices of the group. Therefore, even if you don't explicitly adhere to a trinitarian understanding of Christ, engaging in a trinitarian eucharist, for instance, connects you to that idolatry through your participation in the ritual.
I'll finish by saying that it's completely understandable to feel hesitant about labeling others with a term that may have caused you distress. However, completely dismissing it suggests that the focus may be more on your feelings than on the reality of the situation. You can express love and kindness towards those in differing Christological camps without outright accusing them of being the descendant of a 4th-century Roman pagan cult movement. Yet, ignoring these elements entirely won't serve anyone well either. No one would blink an eye if you referred to the ancient Greek or Roman pagan religions as cults, because that’s precisely what they were. In other words, accusing a Trinitarian of being part of the largest cult movement in history is likely not a productive approach. However, it can be beneficial to recognize this perspective when discussing Unitarianism with them. If anything, gaining this understanding can foster greater empathy towards Trinitarians because they really do need help. Don't make it about you.
The point is that the term “cult” had a defined meaning, especially within Dr. Chandler’s field of religious studies, that then was redefined to be useful only as a slur.
There are more accurate terms to describe the harmful qualities you mention, such as “high control”.
The term “cult” has been used to falsely correlate abusive behavior to a certain set of doctrinal positions when there is no correlation between the two.
Defending unitarians against this kind of slander isn’t about taking personal offense, it is about identifying fallacious claims by trinitarians and not leaving those falsehoods unchallenged.
Amen!
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance I completely agree that the term "cult" is often misused. However, is the solution to eliminate the label entirely? That seems to oversimplify the issue. Instead, let us focus on gaining a clearer understanding of what genuinely warrants that designation, rather than ignoring its existence.
To address your point about the term "high control," in my experience, it fails to capture the essence of what defines a cult. While some cults are clearly authoritarian, others may not exhibit such overt control. If I were to ask the average person if they view Catholicism as a cult, the answer would likely be no. When probed for a reason, they might say it’s because individuals can freely come and go. However, this perspective overlooks the experiences of those raised in the faith, who have been baptized and participated in various sacraments, often intertwining their identities with the religion. For them, leaving could mean severing family connections, which represents a profound level of control. Thus, the term itself can be misleading and complex. Even for the adult convert, if they are led to believe that the Catholic church is the one true church, well then it's implied that salvation lies solely within its walls.
In my view, the definition is quite simple. A "cult" can be identified as a pagan religion, period end. Instead, we should concentrate on what defines paganism, which is where Christology and rituals become significant. It begins with core beliefs, which then filter through the priesthood and are solidified in their rituals.
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance That's correct, that was Keegan's point, and it was a valid term to denote liturgy and worship practices - nothing offensive or accusative.
Note @dboulos7 comment in this thread. The point is “cult” started out a a neutral term. Using it to describe abuse is an abuse of language itself.
Well, folks, according to the authors quoted by Keegan, I am the proudest heretic to walk the face of the earth.
If Nicaea determines orthodoxy, then I am as cultish as they get and hold fast to it.
If you don't believe in the Trinity, you are a cultist. I guess that includes the first Christians who had no idea of a Trinity.
So important to understand the deliberate stigma associated with the word "cult." And that it is used deliberately to cast aspersions on alternate versions of Christology than that promulgated by the Catholic Church in centuries long ago. I have to also point out that the actions of assigning unitarianism to evil behaviors reminds me too much of the way antisemitism developed and spread over the centuries. It's a tactic of the enemy.
The catholic church is the original "christian cult" It closely resembles Mystery Babylon Religion with their three gods and their goddess, the mother of god.
Did you beat that university in court to get your doctorate? I didn't hear the ending from any of the common sources I listen to.
It is interesting to think how the Council of Trent used the word to characterise Protestants in the 16th century. To this day the name given for any Protestant church in France is "La Culte" - this being used because the nation was dominated by Roman Catholics for several centuries after the Council. Now the Protestants (or at least some of them) are using the same tactic on people that they don't like.
I expressed similar thoughts myself. That theological positions should define what a "cult" is, but the harmful behaviours and control mechanisms certain religions have, should be what defines as such.
I myself 'have' had direct experience in being part of a cult from childhood, and getting out of it by means of my independent study of the Bible. I hold to Unitarian positions (pre-existent), merely because of my understanding of the Bible. Not because I'm in or am running some high control movement.
To quote some what I have already written on the matter:
"It is common knowledge that the Catholic Church, as well as some of the early Protestant Churches did all in their power to suppress what they believed to be heretical, which included things such as:
Restricting the Bible from the common people
The Inquisitions
Physical torture of heretics
Slow and painful executions (often by burning at the stake)
Labelling any who had a theological disagreement to the mainstream Church as a “damnable heretic” or “demon possessed”
All these things can be labelled as cult behaviours. When the Trinity doctrine was first made to be unquestionable in the 4th century, it came with military Roman state power and persecution to those who disagreed (and there were a lot of people who disagreed).
Cruel methods used to keep heretics in line, though people of a differing Christological view didn’t pose a threat to society or anyone’s wellbeing, oddly enough, seem to match several of the criteria of what makes a “cult” aforementioned above.
Though today Catholic and Protestant churches are seen as “normal and mainstream” and not cultish at all in the eyes of most, the irony is that historically, they could be labelled as some of the biggest cults in history. Their methods of control were extremely unchristian, using scare tactics, information control and suppression, slanderous name calling, and grotesque violence, all just to silence a few dissenting voices who came to believe the mainstream interpretations of the scriptures from the Churches, were wrong or at the very least, questionable
Only by the 1600s and onward, after these churches slowly began to lose their power and the world becoming more secularised, with the scriptures finally back into the hands of all people freely to read, were dissenting voices given the breathing room to finally be able to “come out of the closet” so to speak, without threat of torture and violence. But by that time, certain doctrines become so mainstream, only certain kinds of people would be willing to begin to question them, and with that then comes a lot of baggage.
To be a non-trinitarian in a world where the Trintiy is mainstream, and constantly upheld by a large voice to be the “center of Christianity” and “vital to salvation”, it takes some big “cahoonas” to stand up against, and this means that only certain kinds of people will stand up:
The extremely brave
The individualist
The contrarian
The insane
It is true that many cultus are of non-trinitarian leanings, but the historical trinitarian churches acted like cults too. Why is it the case today that many high control groups are non-trinitarian? It's because cults often thrive by being “different” to the rest. They attract members by “sticking out” amongst the crowd, and this differentiation also serves to separate them from those around them also, making their members feel like they have something “unique and special”. As non-trinitarianism isn’t as popular as trinitarianism, this makes the doctrine a prime tool to add to the cultist’s arsenal, along with any other doctrines that are not as mainstream, whether or not they be true or false.
But let's keep the term "cult" separate from debates on theology. Because there have been both cults and non-cults, of all positions.
There are two billion "christians" in the world. All are in cults, not Christianity.
There were many cults in the 1970s: Catholics, Muslims, Trinitarians, Calvinists, Sabbath Keepers, Tora Keepers, Jesus People, Moonies, Hare Krishna, World Wide Church of God, Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way, The Manson Family, Jim Jones' People's Temple, David Koresh's Branch Davidians, and all the Oriental Religions. They were all non-Christian cults. Some of them are still around. Torah keeping"christians" seem to be common.
In short, all manmade religions are cults. Every 'christian' denomination is a (babylonian) cult. Denomination = let us make a name for ourselves.
I think this shows that the term 'cult' is so analytically useless when the vast majority of manking appears to be in a cult.