That song was terrible and that whole folksy-Americana aesthetic ceased being relevant over a decade ago around the time indie rock and hipsterism died.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". .
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. - Acts 3:19
Your teachings not only cover important topics but have helped me better understand those times and stand amazed at how vigorously the adversary has sought to destroy the gospel. He never stops. There is great value in understanding how blessed we are for the Protestants scholars that stood up to defend the gospel that saves sinners.
I lived in a neighborhood where the entrance to turn in had a Unitarian church on one side and a Mormon church on the other. Every time i sat at the stoplight I would say i was a heretic Oreo.
Yannow, I'm not a Lutheran but I really like your channel. Your delivery and your insight is really quite a nice break from the usual polemics. You make a good case as a via media of sorts without the usual antagonistic attitude. Very well done.
Thank you. One of the best expositions I have seen on this topic. You were very easy to follow, and provided lots of interesting information. Thanks again
Thanks for creating this, having grown up in the UU church and left, I've been trying to get a better context of what it was about. One nitpick, the logo you showed was a UU one, not a classic Unitarian one, the double circles represent the two denominations joining together.
There is one God almighty. He who formed the world, he who fashioned man, he who is God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, above whom there is no other God. He is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ. For almost all the different sects of heretics admit that there is one God; but then, by there pernicious doctrines, they change this truth into error.
Yes God is the Father and Jesus is not that almighty God. But Jesus was exalted to God's right hand as the Apostles repeatedly stated in the books of Acts. The book of Acts by its absence of a doctrine of the trinity convincingly proves the allegation by Unitarians that the Trinity doctrine was indeed a later invention created by church leaders who fell in love with Greek philosophy. @@cc3775
Calvinism's explanation that God chooses those who are saved and those who are condemned was the impetus for some to insist, following the scriptural passages that describe God's desire for all to come to repentance, that all will eventually be saved: universalism. If God chooses for all to be saved, then doctrinal differences no longer matter as much: unitarianism.
"I love Paradise Lost, don't get me wrong, but the guy's Trinitary theology is terrible." Separate the questions. Absolute gold tossed off in an off hand way.
In regard to the Hellenization hypothesis, I would argue that Greeks like Plato and Aristotle only put explicit terminology to a view of the world that was also held in ancient Israel, but was not expressed philosophically. There is a reason why platonic thought is partially accepted by Christians, and it is because of its realist view of the world. The early Christians adamantly rejected Greek philosophies such as atomism and Epicureanism, and were not terribly receptive to stoicism. Also, the early Christians clearly saw the limitations of philosophy, and Thomas Aquinas, even though he used some of Aristotle’s teachings corrected him on many other issues when they were not compatible with Christianity. It is really silly to say that one should reject anything that is Greek simply because it is Greek.
If Unitarians don't believe in the immortality of the soul, how can they believe in the resurrection? How can a non-existent soul be resurrected? Do they think that the soul and body are re-created at the time of the resurrection? Wouldn't that conflict with their non-belief in the supernatural?
Im debating with some oneness pentacostal folks , a new believer I know started going there. Watching. Where in New England are you from? Do you have any plans to do some speaking here?
14:10 i think they did call themselves unitarians long before the english term. Because the Hungarian Unitarian Church’s confession from 1782 is called Summa Universae Theologiae Christianae secundum Unitarios and also i don’t know of any other name that they identefied with (i am from Transylvania)
Was Jesus a Trinitarian? Did he tell you that God is three in the most important commandment (the shema). Did he mention anyone else but the father in the Lord’s Prayer? This debate is nonsensical. There is no trinity. Only monotheism.
@@couriersix7326 Is God eternal, limitless, and infinite in power and wisdom? How then can God be three? Why stop at three? Who polices this limit? Can God forgive sins without the need for a human sacrifice? Who says He can’t? Doesn’t the Lord’s Prayer explicitly instruct us to ask God for forgiveness of our sins as we forgive the sins of others? Isn’t this the only place where Jesus explicitly teaches us how to pray and whom to pray to? If you believe God is three, then there is absolutely nothing stopping God from being three million. You are still placing a numerical limit on God, giving God form. Throughout the Bible, God is described as one, eternal, inconceivable, formless, and invisible. The “Old” Testament isn’t old; it is the eternal word of God. Not a single stroke can be changed, and those who teach others to do so will be seen as least in the kingdom of heaven. I love the passion of Trinitarians, but I’m afraid this Hellenic Greco-Roman influence has truly knocked you off your pathos-pun intended. The Greeks were obsessed with trinities. The state religion of Rome at the time of Jesus was the Capitoline Triad. Greek philosophy was centered on pathos, ethos, and logos. Greco Roman culture included numerous triune deities, triads or trinities from Ancient Greek mythology and cosmology: 1. The Big Three: - Zeus, Poseidon, Hades: The three major gods ruling the sky, the sea, and the underworld, respectively. 2. The Fates (Moirai): - Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos: The three sisters who control the thread of life for every mortal and god. 3. The Furies (Erinyes): - Alecto, Megaera, Tisiphone: The three deities of vengeance who punish crimes against the natural order. 4. The Judges of the Underworld: - Minos, Rhadamanthus. Aeacus: The three judges who determine the fate of souls in the afterlife. 5. The Elder Cyclopes: - Brontes, Steropes, Arges: The three one-eyed giants who forged Zeus’s thunderbolts. 6. **The Hecatoncheires**: - **Briareus**, **Cottus**, **Gyges**: The three giants with a hundred hands and fifty heads, children of Uranus and Gaia. 7. **The Oneiroi**: - **Morpheus**, **Phobetor**, **Phantasos**: The three gods of dreams. 8. **The Three Rules of the Universe**: - **Primordials**: The first gods and entities, including **Chaos**, **Gaia**, **Uranus**, etc. - **Titans**: The second generation of divine beings, children of Uranus and Gaia, including **Cronus**, **Rhea**, **Oceanus**, etc. - **Olympians**: The principal gods of the Greek pantheon who resided on Mount Olympus, including **Zeus**, **Hera**, **Poseidon**, **Demeter**, **Athena**, etc. 9. **The Charites (Graces)**: - **Aglaea**, **Euphrosyne**, **Thalia**: The three goddesses of charm, beauty, nature, human creativity, and fertility. 10. **The Gorgons**: - **Stheno**, **Euryale**, **Medusa**: The three monstrous sisters with snakes for hair, of whom Medusa is the most famous. These triads reflect the Greek tendency to categorize divine and cosmic elements into groups of three, a significant number in their mythology and belief systems.
The way that modern UU church claims a link with the Unitarians, was that by the claim that the early Christians had many different ideas of Jesus and God, and that was a good thing, and then Nicaea forced everyone into one view. They then claim that Unitarian's was a restoration of that early church dialog, and see themselves today as an inheritor of the dialog, but now expanded.
I'm not totally sure the evaluation of Clarke's views at the end was totally accurate. Clarke uses language which suggests subordination, but he's careful to qualify that this is just a matter of where the activities and persons of the Trinity come from (the Son is subordinate to the Father for Clarke only *insofar as* the Son is begotten of the Father and performs the divine actions because they are communicated to him by the Father). That doesn't seem to match up with EFS (indeed, on my reading the EFS people are even more subordinationist than Clarke). Clarke also doesn't reject "homoousios," he just prefers to be quiet about it because neither it nor its negation is explicit in scripture. To be clear, he's still unorthodox, but in a more mild way than I think is suggested here. Probably the area where his orthodoxy is most questionable (it seems to me) is when he says that all divine worship given to the Spirit and the Son must terminate in the Father (he makes an analogy to how the inseperable operations come from the Father through the Son and rest in the Spirit), and where he says that he prefers to say that begetting and proceeding are voluntary free acts of God and not something he does naturally or essentially.
I would definitely like to hear you talk about the hellenization accusations because I've been exposed to a lot of that position in recent reading. I'm fascinated by Hyam Maccoby's book The Mythmaker, in which he basically claims that Paul invented Christianity himself. I would really get a lot out of a strong argument against this book from someone with your level of knowledge. I'm new to your channel so don't know if you've already done something like that.
12:38 you did ok :)) , just that his first name isn’t actually John but the hungarian alternative which is Janos (which is pronounced somthing like Yanosh)
One jewish rabbi on youtube asked a rhetorical question: why even protestant reformers did not reject the trinity? He probably think that they should reformed almost all teology at their time
I like Sam, watch his channel occasionally. He actually did a recent series on church fathers and also a response to Gavin Ortlund that laid out a timeline regarding the establishment of trinitarianism. He would definitely be an interesting conversation partner.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19
You mean the Re-Birth of Unitarianism? Are you implying the OT wasn’t Unitarian? The first few hundred years of Christianity were strictly Unitarian. Even the Nicene affirms “we believe in one God, the Father almighty”. Jesus only had one person as his God, therefore Jesus was a Unitarian. Paul says, “For us there is one God, the Father. Not, “one God the trinity”. This sort of mentality that Unitarianism began in the 16th century is just historically refutable and irresponsible.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. - Acts 3:19
c'mon, trying to use the NICENE CREED to justify Unitarian heresy? You do realize that, exactly 5 LINES LATER, it states that Christ is "True God from True God"? As was the point of the creed, it is anathematizing Unitarianism as heresy, confirming the doctrine of Homoousios, meaning the same substance of the Father is that of the Son (and later the holy spirit)? And no, the OT does NOT deny Trinitarianism or endorse a Unitarian doctrine. Look to Genesis, we clearly see all persons of the Trinity present, The Father is creating, The Son is walking on the creation, and the Spirit is hovering over the waters. All three are distinctly shown, and they are talking amongst each other. Think, why would the Father say "let US make man in our own image"? He isn't talking in the third person, he is talking to the other two persons in God, the only conscious beings up to that point with the capacity to think like this. This is present ALL throughout the OT, this idea of pre-incarnation Unitarianism is bogus.
@toilet_cleaner_man No credible scholar would say Genesis 1:26 is referring to a Trinity. That’s pure conjecture. How many persons did Jesus did have as his God? 1. How many persons is Jesus’ God to this day and for all eternity? 1. Jesus is a Unitarian. That's good enough for me.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
Then why is Jesus making divine claims about himself and accepting worship if he’s only a prophet? Why are the gospel writers taking prophecies about YHWH and applying them to Jesus? Why is Jesus going to judge the world, which is Gods’s job, if he is only a prophet? That isn’t only Matthew 7, but also Islam. Why on earth is Jesus judging the world if Jesus is only a prophet? Why is Jesus saying things like, “Apart from me, you can do nothing” if he was only a prophet? Why is he taking the Divine Name YHWH for himself if he is only a prophet? Why did the early rabbis call him a blasphemer and deserving of his death if he was only a prophet? What claim did he make in order to be called a blasphemer if he was only a prophet? Why should we honour Jesus as we do the Father if he was only a prophet? He’s either a deceiver and false prophet, or he is the Only Begotten Son of God. There is no middle ground.
@@samueljennings4809 luke 4:8 “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’” The bible is undeniably corrupted, don't you think the trinity, the most important belief in Christianity shouldn't have been explained and elaborated by christ himself? Shouldn't he just said we are a god of three, worship us? If you're referring to the miracles of jesus, plenty of prophets had miracles,should we worship them? If you're basing your belief on the fact the jesus was born without a father, should we worship Adam or eve? They don't have fathers
@@lukehardman3003 No, that isn’t why. The trinity is in the Old Testament, throughout the Exodus, the Angel in Genesis who is the God of Jacob (Genesis 48:15-16), appeared to Moses in Exodus, yet is sent ahead of God who has “put His Name” in the Angel. Who lead the Israelites through the wilderness? god? Or the Angel of the Lord, who is distinct. But, God has sent the Angel ahead, so has God sent Himself? This is also mentioned in the prophets also (Isaiah 63:8-10); God is the only saviour and redeemer, yet the Angel of the Lord, already established to be God in Genesis 48, is the “Angel of his presence”, and “his Holy Spirit” who was has grieved is the one poured out. So, one God, yet 3 persons? 🤔 God, His “Messenger”, and His Spirit. Also, read what I said again. I never said anything about miracles, I never claimed that Jesus was God because there was no biological father. You are putting words in my mouth. I’m only asking you questions that make you realise that the whole “Jesus was only a prophet” thing falls apart when you actually look at history outside of the Bible. The first century Jews outside of the OT called him a blasphemer for a reason. The Christians early on, from a Jewish background, then Gentile, worshipped him as God, and was described as such before 100 AD, and in such a widespread fashion that the only explanation is that this thought was established incredibly early, within the lifetime of the apostles themselves. The issue regarding the Trinity was HOW to describe the Incarnation. It’s telling that the first major heresy was Modalism, not Arianism, almost like the deity of Jesus was emphasised and certain, even if you couldn’t explain it. Read Daniel Boyarin’s works. He is a Jew but he acknowledged that the idea of a multi personal God is not a Christian invention, but came out of close study of the Old Testament. I won’t engage any further, since you putting words in my mouth indicates that this is probably not out of sincerity or good will, but please actually think about what I’ve written and look into it. Second Temple Judaism and the “two Powers” theology had different positions on the multi personal nature of God than modern day Judaism does.
I will add one more thing@@lukehardman3003 if we are misunderstanding each other, I mentioned being the Son of God as deity, not because I was trying to reference the virgin birth, I’m sorry if you thought that and this is why you responded with that, but I never said anything about miracles. I mentioned in another comment about the Incarnation, God becoming man to learn obedience in our struggles, and to be the perfect man that we could not. A part of this is learning to love God, and therefore it is logical that such a God who became man would follow the same approach. This is why Jesus has a God, because he became the perfect man in our stead, which includes loving God. Yes, he has two natures, but I think that’s the real answer. To show us how to live in humility (Philippians 2:6-11). God manifested in the flesh to live as a Servant and do the work that Israel never could, redeemed us, then returned to glory (1 Timothy 3:16). I’m sure that there are many people who can handle the trustworthiness of the Bible, and I pray that you may learn what I did on your journey. I was like you 5-6 years ago before I understood the gospel and how the Bible and the God it teaches about are trustworthy.
Gorgeous intro. You should bring "a saint and a sinner is what i am" back for a retro callback, lol. Only the real fans remember.
That song was terrible and that whole folksy-Americana aesthetic ceased being relevant over a decade ago around the time indie rock and hipsterism died.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
@@gymnopedie4445☕️
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
- Acts 3:19
@@gymnopedie4445 it was a vibe and you know it
Your teachings not only cover important topics but have helped me better understand those times and stand amazed at how vigorously the adversary has sought to destroy the gospel. He never stops. There is great value in understanding how blessed we are for the Protestants scholars that stood up to defend the gospel that saves sinners.
Are you saying Unitarians are trying to destroy the gospel?
@Cato1006 Yes? How are they not? If you deny Jesus' divinity you destroy the whole gospel.
I lived in a neighborhood where the entrance to turn in had a Unitarian church on one side and a Mormon church on the other. Every time i sat at the stoplight I would say i was a heretic Oreo.
Don't quit your day job.
Yannow, I'm not a Lutheran but I really like your channel. Your delivery and your insight is really quite a nice break from the usual polemics. You make a good case as a via media of sorts without the usual antagonistic attitude. Very well done.
Thank you. One of the best expositions I have seen on this topic. You were very easy to follow, and provided lots of interesting information. Thanks again
Thanks for creating this, having grown up in the UU church and left, I've been trying to get a better context of what it was about. One nitpick, the logo you showed was a UU one, not a classic Unitarian one, the double circles represent the two denominations joining together.
There is one God almighty. He who formed the world, he who fashioned man, he who is God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, above whom there is no other God. He is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ. For almost all the different sects of heretics admit that there is one God; but then, by there pernicious doctrines, they change this truth into error.
For us there is but one God the Father and one lord Jesus messiah
Yes God is the Father and Jesus is not that almighty God. But Jesus was exalted to God's right hand as the Apostles repeatedly stated in the books of Acts. The book of Acts by its absence of a doctrine of the trinity convincingly proves the allegation by Unitarians that the Trinity doctrine was indeed a later invention created by church leaders who fell in love with Greek philosophy. @@cc3775
There is only one God (the Father), and only one mediator between our God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
Like the new intro
Calvinism's explanation that God chooses those who are saved and those who are condemned was the impetus for some to insist, following the scriptural passages that describe God's desire for all to come to repentance, that all will eventually be saved: universalism.
If God chooses for all to be saved, then doctrinal differences no longer matter as much: unitarianism.
"I love Paradise Lost, don't get me wrong, but the guy's Trinitary theology is terrible." Separate the questions. Absolute gold tossed off in an off hand way.
In regard to the Hellenization hypothesis, I would argue that Greeks like Plato and Aristotle only put explicit terminology to a view of the world that was also held in ancient Israel, but was not expressed philosophically. There is a reason why platonic thought is partially accepted by Christians, and it is because of its realist view of the world. The early Christians adamantly rejected Greek philosophies such as atomism and Epicureanism, and were not terribly receptive to stoicism. Also, the early Christians clearly saw the limitations of philosophy, and Thomas Aquinas, even though he used some of Aristotle’s teachings corrected him on many other issues when they were not compatible with Christianity. It is really silly to say that one should reject anything that is Greek simply because it is Greek.
If Unitarians don't believe in the immortality of the soul, how can they believe in the resurrection? How can a non-existent soul be resurrected? Do they think that the soul and body are re-created at the time of the resurrection? Wouldn't that conflict with their non-belief in the supernatural?
No such thing taught in scripture. God formed man from dust and breathed into it the breath of life and man became a living soul.
The scriptures call it the regeneration or the new creation for a reason
Im debating with some oneness pentacostal folks , a new believer I know started going there. Watching.
Where in New England are you from? Do you have any plans to do some speaking here?
Western Mass. And sure, I'll speak if I'm invited.
@@DrJordanBCooper not too far. Im in lowell.
I hope you get to talk about modalism one of these days
14:10 i think they did call themselves unitarians long before the english term. Because the Hungarian Unitarian Church’s confession from 1782 is called Summa Universae Theologiae Christianae secundum Unitarios and also i don’t know of any other name that they identefied with (i am from Transylvania)
Oh interesting! Thanks for the info. That would differ from the sources I read.
Was Jesus a Trinitarian? Did he tell you that God is three in the most important commandment (the shema). Did he mention anyone else but the father in the Lord’s Prayer? This debate is nonsensical. There is no trinity. Only monotheism.
When he commanded others to baptize in the name of the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" what was he talking about?
@@couriersix7326 Is God eternal, limitless, and infinite in power and wisdom? How then can God be three? Why stop at three? Who polices this limit?
Can God forgive sins without the need for a human sacrifice? Who says He can’t? Doesn’t the Lord’s Prayer explicitly instruct us to ask God for forgiveness of our sins as we forgive the sins of others? Isn’t this the only place where Jesus explicitly teaches us how to pray and whom to pray to?
If you believe God is three, then there is absolutely nothing stopping God from being three million. You are still placing a numerical limit on God, giving God form.
Throughout the Bible, God is described as one, eternal, inconceivable, formless, and invisible. The “Old” Testament isn’t old; it is the eternal word of God. Not a single stroke can be changed, and those who teach others to do so will be seen as least in the kingdom of heaven.
I love the passion of Trinitarians, but I’m afraid this Hellenic Greco-Roman influence has truly knocked you off your pathos-pun intended. The Greeks were obsessed with trinities. The state religion of Rome at the time of Jesus was the Capitoline Triad. Greek philosophy was centered on pathos, ethos, and logos.
Greco Roman culture included numerous triune deities, triads or trinities from Ancient Greek mythology and cosmology:
1. The Big Three:
- Zeus, Poseidon, Hades: The three major gods ruling the sky, the sea, and the underworld, respectively.
2. The Fates (Moirai):
- Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos: The three sisters who control the thread of life for every mortal and god.
3. The Furies (Erinyes):
- Alecto, Megaera, Tisiphone: The three deities of vengeance who punish crimes against the natural order.
4. The Judges of the Underworld:
- Minos, Rhadamanthus. Aeacus: The three judges who determine the fate of souls in the afterlife.
5. The Elder Cyclopes:
- Brontes, Steropes, Arges: The three one-eyed giants who forged Zeus’s thunderbolts.
6. **The Hecatoncheires**:
- **Briareus**, **Cottus**, **Gyges**: The three giants with a hundred hands and fifty heads, children of Uranus and Gaia.
7. **The Oneiroi**:
- **Morpheus**, **Phobetor**, **Phantasos**: The three gods of dreams.
8. **The Three Rules of the Universe**:
- **Primordials**: The first gods and entities, including **Chaos**, **Gaia**, **Uranus**, etc.
- **Titans**: The second generation of divine beings, children of Uranus and Gaia, including **Cronus**, **Rhea**, **Oceanus**, etc.
- **Olympians**: The principal gods of the Greek pantheon who resided on Mount Olympus, including **Zeus**, **Hera**, **Poseidon**, **Demeter**, **Athena**, etc.
9. **The Charites (Graces)**:
- **Aglaea**, **Euphrosyne**, **Thalia**: The three goddesses of charm, beauty, nature, human creativity, and fertility.
10. **The Gorgons**:
- **Stheno**, **Euryale**, **Medusa**: The three monstrous sisters with snakes for hair, of whom Medusa is the most famous.
These triads reflect the Greek tendency to categorize divine and cosmic elements into groups of three, a significant number in their mythology and belief systems.
@@couriersix7326 I am sorry, but this is a very weak argument.
@@erykpatrykchudy5675 So was the OP's.
The way that modern UU church claims a link with the Unitarians, was that by the claim that the early Christians had many different ideas of Jesus and God, and that was a good thing, and then Nicaea forced everyone into one view. They then claim that Unitarian's was a restoration of that early church dialog, and see themselves today as an inheritor of the dialog, but now expanded.
Episode on late medieval and reformation heresies is not on Spotify
Oh! I'll fix that. Thank you for the heads up.
I'm not totally sure the evaluation of Clarke's views at the end was totally accurate. Clarke uses language which suggests subordination, but he's careful to qualify that this is just a matter of where the activities and persons of the Trinity come from (the Son is subordinate to the Father for Clarke only *insofar as* the Son is begotten of the Father and performs the divine actions because they are communicated to him by the Father). That doesn't seem to match up with EFS (indeed, on my reading the EFS people are even more subordinationist than Clarke). Clarke also doesn't reject "homoousios," he just prefers to be quiet about it because neither it nor its negation is explicit in scripture.
To be clear, he's still unorthodox, but in a more mild way than I think is suggested here. Probably the area where his orthodoxy is most questionable (it seems to me) is when he says that all divine worship given to the Spirit and the Son must terminate in the Father (he makes an analogy to how the inseperable operations come from the Father through the Son and rest in the Spirit), and where he says that he prefers to say that begetting and proceeding are voluntary free acts of God and not something he does naturally or essentially.
Oooh, new intro 👀
I would definitely like to hear you talk about the hellenization accusations because I've been exposed to a lot of that position in recent reading. I'm fascinated by Hyam Maccoby's book The Mythmaker, in which he basically claims that Paul invented Christianity himself. I would really get a lot out of a strong argument against this book from someone with your level of knowledge. I'm new to your channel so don't know if you've already done something like that.
12:38 you did ok :)) , just that his first name isn’t actually John but the hungarian alternative which is Janos (which is pronounced somthing like Yanosh)
Hey, I tried!
Im here to have a deep dive on curtis yarvin's take on progressivism march.
The English Presbyterians went (almost?) completely Unitarian in the 17th and 18th centuries. I'm not sure why Presbyterianism?
That intro goes kinda hard ngl
One jewish rabbi on youtube asked a rhetorical question: why even protestant reformers did not reject the trinity? He probably think that they should reformed almost all teology at their time
Rabbi singer?
@@ABLEARC Yes, the most popular
I know a Unitarian @Transfigured who would like to dialogue in good faith with you
I like Sam, watch his channel occasionally. He actually did a recent series on church fathers and also a response to Gavin Ortlund that laid out a timeline regarding the establishment of trinitarianism. He would definitely be an interesting conversation partner.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Although a (Biblical) Unitarian, I have benefittted from the history. (I threw out the Trinitarian Theory as unBiblical when I was 58.)
There is no such thing as a Biblical Unitarian.
You mean the Re-Birth of Unitarianism? Are you implying the OT wasn’t Unitarian? The first few hundred years of Christianity were strictly Unitarian. Even the Nicene affirms “we believe in one God, the Father almighty”. Jesus only had one person as his God, therefore Jesus was a Unitarian. Paul says, “For us there is one God, the Father. Not, “one God the trinity”. This sort of mentality that Unitarianism began in the 16th century is just historically refutable and irresponsible.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
- Acts 3:19
@@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool Who so loved the world?
c'mon, trying to use the NICENE CREED to justify Unitarian heresy? You do realize that, exactly 5 LINES LATER, it states that Christ is "True God from True God"? As was the point of the creed, it is anathematizing Unitarianism as heresy, confirming the doctrine of Homoousios, meaning the same substance of the Father is that of the Son (and later the holy spirit)? And no, the OT does NOT deny Trinitarianism or endorse a Unitarian doctrine. Look to Genesis, we clearly see all persons of the Trinity present, The Father is creating, The Son is walking on the creation, and the Spirit is hovering over the waters. All three are distinctly shown, and they are talking amongst each other. Think, why would the Father say "let US make man in our own image"? He isn't talking in the third person, he is talking to the other two persons in God, the only conscious beings up to that point with the capacity to think like this. This is present ALL throughout the OT, this idea of pre-incarnation Unitarianism is bogus.
@toilet_cleaner_man No credible scholar would say Genesis 1:26 is referring to a Trinity. That’s pure conjecture. How many persons did Jesus did have as his God? 1. How many persons is Jesus’ God to this day and for all eternity? 1. Jesus is a Unitarian. That's good enough for me.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
There's only one god, jesus like all other prophets was only a messenger
Then why is Jesus making divine claims about himself and accepting worship if he’s only a prophet? Why are the gospel writers taking prophecies about YHWH and applying them to Jesus? Why is Jesus going to judge the world, which is Gods’s job, if he is only a prophet? That isn’t only Matthew 7, but also Islam. Why on earth is Jesus judging the world if Jesus is only a prophet? Why is Jesus saying things like, “Apart from me, you can do nothing” if he was only a prophet? Why is he taking the Divine Name YHWH for himself if he is only a prophet? Why did the early rabbis call him a blasphemer and deserving of his death if he was only a prophet? What claim did he make in order to be called a blasphemer if he was only a prophet? Why should we honour Jesus as we do the Father if he was only a prophet?
He’s either a deceiver and false prophet, or he is the Only Begotten Son of God. There is no middle ground.
@@samueljennings4809 luke 4:8 “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”
The bible is undeniably corrupted, don't you think the trinity, the most important belief in Christianity shouldn't have been explained and elaborated by christ himself? Shouldn't he just said we are a god of three, worship us?
If you're referring to the miracles of jesus, plenty of prophets had miracles,should we worship them?
If you're basing your belief on the fact the jesus was born without a father, should we worship Adam or eve? They don't have fathers
No.
@@lukehardman3003 No, that isn’t why. The trinity is in the Old Testament, throughout the Exodus, the Angel in Genesis who is the God of Jacob (Genesis 48:15-16), appeared to Moses in Exodus, yet is sent ahead of God who has “put His Name” in the Angel. Who lead the Israelites through the wilderness? god? Or the Angel of the Lord, who is distinct. But, God has sent the Angel ahead, so has God sent Himself? This is also mentioned in the prophets also (Isaiah 63:8-10); God is the only saviour and redeemer, yet the Angel of the Lord, already established to be God in Genesis 48, is the “Angel of his presence”, and “his Holy Spirit” who was has grieved is the one poured out. So, one God, yet 3 persons? 🤔 God, His “Messenger”, and His Spirit.
Also, read what I said again. I never said anything about miracles, I never claimed that Jesus was God because there was no biological father. You are putting words in my mouth. I’m only asking you questions that make you realise that the whole “Jesus was only a prophet” thing falls apart when you actually look at history outside of the Bible.
The first century Jews outside of the OT called him a blasphemer for a reason. The Christians early on, from a Jewish background, then Gentile, worshipped him as God, and was described as such before 100 AD, and in such a widespread fashion that the only explanation is that this thought was established incredibly early, within the lifetime of the apostles themselves. The issue regarding the Trinity was HOW to describe the Incarnation. It’s telling that the first major heresy was Modalism, not Arianism, almost like the deity of Jesus was emphasised and certain, even if you couldn’t explain it.
Read Daniel Boyarin’s works. He is a Jew but he acknowledged that the idea of a multi personal God is not a Christian invention, but came out of close study of the Old Testament.
I won’t engage any further, since you putting words in my mouth indicates that this is probably not out of sincerity or good will, but please actually think about what I’ve written and look into it. Second Temple Judaism and the “two Powers” theology had different positions on the multi personal nature of God than modern day Judaism does.
I will add one more thing@@lukehardman3003 if we are misunderstanding each other, I mentioned being the Son of God as deity, not because I was trying to reference the virgin birth, I’m sorry if you thought that and this is why you responded with that, but I never said anything about miracles.
I mentioned in another comment about the Incarnation, God becoming man to learn obedience in our struggles, and to be the perfect man that we could not. A part of this is learning to love God, and therefore it is logical that such a God who became man would follow the same approach. This is why Jesus has a God, because he became the perfect man in our stead, which includes loving God. Yes, he has two natures, but I think that’s the real answer. To show us how to live in humility (Philippians 2:6-11).
God manifested in the flesh to live as a Servant and do the work that Israel never could, redeemed us, then returned to glory (1 Timothy 3:16).
I’m sure that there are many people who can handle the trustworthiness of the Bible, and I pray that you may learn what I did on your journey. I was like you 5-6 years ago before I understood the gospel and how the Bible and the God it teaches about are trustworthy.