A Christian Visits a Unitarian Universalist Church
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2023
- This is the first video I've ever made where I go and learn about an entirely different religion. Unitarian Universalist isn't Christianity even though it has a few overlapping concepts and some overlapping history. I asked the Rev. Kim Mason of the First Unitarian Church of St. Louis, Missouri to sit down with me and walk me through who they are as a religion and what they believe.
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I'm a Catholic who is not particularly attracted to Calvinist theology, but "God is mad and hates everyone" might be the worst strawman of Calvinism I have ever heard! 😂
💯
Also not a Calvinists and I concur lol
To be fair, she was talking about certain 19th century calvinists, not the calvinism of most modern calvinists or of Calvin.
@@IamGrimalkin Calvin was no Angel he had people burned at the stake for what he considered heresy
It's possible that the only thing she knows about Calvinism is that one sermon title of Jonathan Edwards: "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God". Edwards was a prolific Congregationalist theologian of the Colonial era. It's a shame that the only thing some people know about him is that one sermon title. I'm not a Calvinist either, but lets be fair.
I know some folks are going to be mad, but as a Christian I'm excited to see you visiting different religions!
Based
@@nonamemage6599 lol
kek
Knowledge is *_always_* a good thing. Truth should never scare us. But some Christians believe lies and Truth terrifies them. God's Truth remains True no matter who says it.
😎♥✝🇺🇸💯
I'm Orthodox, and he's making a mistake for going to this temple of the antichrist
Here's what I like about the Unitarian Universalist church - they're honest about not being historic Christianity. There are many pastors in historic denominations like mine, the PCUSA, or the United Methodist Church or the Episcopal Church, who are basically Unitarian Universalist in their beliefs, but still try to take over these confessional, historic Protestant denominations
Hey its you!
@@pleasedontkillme2854 not all of it! But it keeps getting worse, which is why I’m trying to fix it
@@pleasedontkillme2854PCUSA has been bad for decades. It's the PCA that's conservative. It's like comparing UMC to GMC, or Episcopal to ACNA. (Or ELCA to LCMS kind of)
@@EssenceofPureFlavor it’s depressing that the liberals always keep the “original” one and conservatives have to run away (except for LCMS)
I swear this lady doesn't even sound like she believes what she's saying
A 2 hour video of 2 vastly different beliefs being discussed civilly? How incredibly counter cultural and maybe even counter to your own success on the internet in some ways.
I LOVE IT.
(Also the San Junipero reference was so great!)
I feel like I understand UU so much more than ever, but I still struggle with grasping how they don't seem to totally account for justice.
I inherited Christian Protestant from my parents, but not seen Christian value out of them,I myself found none since I been to many churches , I found only in JESUS
I love your prologue to this video, and I greatly value the way you stated you simply want people to be Christian, even if its not your own tradition. In fact, your videos where you visited an LCMS Lutheran church were a great influence for me and helped me to become a Lutheran Christian myself.
Many Lutherans as well as other christians are now converting to the Catholic Church. Look up THE JOURNEY HOME.
@Ninjamime56 same here! I didn't even realize there was an LCMS presence in my state, but I found one and have been there for about a year and a half now. I'm glad you also found your way there. I ALMOST got to meet Pastor Weedon (purely random that he was a speaker), but I would have basically been crashing the event to do it, which didn't seem cool. I'd really love to shake his hand and thank him for making Lutheranism make so much more sense to me than it did before.
Lol, same.
Same
Same.
Love your open-mindedness. As a Church-curious, liberal leaning agnostic it’s cool to see people having open minded conversations with people they might not agree with. Helps me try and work it all out.
Check out Orthodox Christianity. All the other branches of Christianity are just dime-a-dozen opinions about what the Bible says. All of these were invented just 500 years ago, and most within the last 200 years.
Orthodoxy is the historically original form of Christianity. Nothing else even honestly has a practical claim to even being Christian.
we are all in the same boat
As a Jew who's a huge fan of your videos, I just want to suggest if you ever do synagogue visits, make sure you start with an Orthodox synagogue. That's where you'll get the most authentic and integrated representation of the tradition and theology as it's existed for the last two millennia in cultures around the world.
I've been hoping for interfaith visits, hopefully this is the first of many! Personally, I've always wanted to understand what goes on inside a mosque, just like I love learning about churches.
Agreed
I strongly second this idea! Matt, you are so gifted in presenting perspectives that you don't agree with respectfully but without compromising what you do believe that it would be so helpful if you were to present other religions more.
Matt walking round a Synagogue and only seeing the star of St David and a few candles and maybe a decorative alter.
Not much to commentate on really!!! But probably more theologically structured than many modern day Baptist churches.
@@danmillar9582 You'd be surprised. Torah scrolls with mantles, breastplates, and crowns in a decorated ark with an eternal lamp. Bibles, prayerbooks, fringed garments. Scrolls you read, scrolls you wear, scrolls you display. Straight candles, braided candles, memorial candles. Braided bread, wine, even a bit of incense. Symbolic images and woodcarvings everywhere. Endless shelves of theology, liturgy, and law, maybe even some stained glass. A synagogue is not an empty place.
Also want this.
I love that you opened this up flatly stating this is a different religion.
It is antithetical to Christ.
It’s so refreshing to watch a civil conversation about theology even between two seemingly opposing religions. As a UU, I really enjoyed viewing this from a Christian perspective.
Huh.. As a Creedal Christian, i find this equaling baffling and fascinating. Thanks for sharing this conversation!
Great job, Matt. This interview was very different from your others. I learned more about Unitarian Universalism. And you were respectful but still asked some probing questions. Also, thanks to Rev. Kim Mason for taking the time to do this interview. She was very thoughtful in all her answers.
Matt, it was fascinating to see how speaking to someone with such dramatically different theology almost immediately made you articulate yours in ways we usually don't hear on the channel. I think this was very productive and I'm glad to have learned more about UUs from someone so articulate.
Matt, I know it’s most likely not the direct point of your work, but there is something very special about the way you conduct yourself that might be just as valuable as anything else. It is such a human thing to have a visceral reaction to claims or statements that are contrary to our own fundamental beliefs. Even without words that reaction is visible, but remarkably you are able to dig deep to find restraint and respect. I’d like to think it’s some kind of understanding that if the things we believe are true, they don’t necessitate the belief of ourselves (let alone others). Regardless of how, it is remarkable and a gift to anyone who watches. Thank you and, please, keep it up.
Your comment means a lot to me. Thank you.
I agree. What's impressive to me isn't just not having a visceral knee-jerk reaction, but he follows up with a logical follow-up question instead. I'd be so tempted to argue, even politely, that I would kill this type of interview really quickly.
I heard a Unitarian minister shout the name of Jesus Christ during a service. As it turned out, the janitor fell down the stairs.
Underrated comment 😂
That joke is at least 50 years old
@@kathypatterson6813 old jokes, like old women, continue to be laughed at by each new generation
@@delightfulBeverage😂
I was honestly a bit nervous when I saw the notification, but after watching your intro, you alleviated my fears. Your patience and genuine tolerance (as opposed to promotion) of all traditions is a great quality, Matt. Thanks for making this.
I don't think Matt is 'promoting' this set up. He is just investigating it to expose it for what it is.
@@Anon.5216Right. I agree. That's why I said tolerance, as opposed to promotion. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
@@Anon.5216lol. "Expose" is an odd word choice. It'd be like if I said I "exposed" christians for believing in Jesus. You may not agree with us but it's not exposing if we wear it on our sleeves proudly.
Matt, I want you to know, your show has helped me become Catholic. You helped bring me back to Christ after I had walked away for most of my 20s. You’re doing good work Matt, and I thank you.
Same. The first episode he visited a catholic church sent me down a rather unexpected path. A year later and I graduated RCIA lol
What attracted you?
Strikingly similar for me.
Noooooooooo 😩 please don’t die lost! Jesus Is the way!
@@KyleHurd?
I really hope the comments here stay as kind and generous as Matt is.
The kind thing to do is call out the heresy and pray they repent.
I’m don’t think that is likely to win any converts. Jesus sat with the sick, he didn’t shout at them from afar.
@@MinimumSpanningTree you can call out heresy without shouting. Matt did it throughout the video several times.
@@MinimumSpanningTree Jesus always called out sin... when did he not?
It seems to me that Universal Unitarianism is really ecumenical humanism. Wherever humanism is supported by one’s tradition is where they really join together to commune.
Yes, humanism is the biggest self-identity in uu, the second is agnostic if I remember correctly. Self identified as Christian is only ~20 or less.
Credit to Rev. Kim Mason who knowing that she will be speaking to a largely orthodox audience decided to express her faith despite the possible (inevitable) backlash. I may not believe a lot of what she believes, but this was brave.
How was it brave to share what you believe? She’s not running a secret church.
@@Mike-gz4xnI think it is brave to sit down and represent your group and many deeply held beliefs one on one for two hours. Doing so with a very smart interlocutor and an audience of thousands takes a pretty strong stomach.
Obviously Matt has worked to build a community that is unlikely to go rabid, but it is still trusting and brave of her to do this.
It's brave to express your beliefs in America?
@iloveamerica007 for a lot of people yea it is. I personally know people who have lost friends and family over religious and political beliefs. There are communities in America where saying you're an atheist, or even just moving from catholic to protestant it could ostracize you from everyone in your life. Or coming out, America isn't always accepting of other beliefs and no matter what losing people is hard to do.
@@iloveamerica007 nowadays, depending on who you ask, yes.
Love you Matt. With all respect to the lady welcoming you to her congregation, you asserted the Bible, you asserted Christ, you asserted Christianity. you were evangelizing. God bless you.
He presented the Gosple multiple times. That was very cool.
And the "lady" is the minister and pastor of this Unitarian Universalist church. She represented the complex history, theology and practice of UUism very well, throughout the video.
This was edifying and humbling. Matt, I need to take a page out of your book. I can so quickly get into debate mode but it’s so important to really try to understand others while engaging with them. Thank you and the whole team
so much ♥️♥️♥️
A great episode, as usual. As a fellow minister, albeit in a catholic context, I can appreciate how open you are and how you continually search for common ground. Rev. Kim did a great job of representing the UU in general and her congregation specifically. Thanks for always seeking understandings that create unity.
I've been waiting for something like this! As one of your non-Christian fans who's loved every video you've done visiting other churches and traditions, I'm thrilled to see your interview style and curiosity go look at other ideas. I'd also love to see you talk to Mormons, some of the different sects of Judaism and Islam, and if you're feeling really adventurous maybe even some of the pagan folks.
And if you have a chance to go back to some more Orthodox churches, and/or hang out with the Quakers, that would be cool too :)
Thanks for being willing to step way outside your comfort zone for your audience.
I second this, for what it's worth.
At 15:59, you mention the Catholic view of Confession. While I understand your analogy, the notion the penance performed after Confession cancels out the sins confessed and absolved is entirely false. No one can atone for his own sins, which is something clear taught in the Bible and which Catholics profess. Rather, the absolution said by the priest applies the saving work of Christ on the Cross to the penitent and completely wipes away the sin, though not all of their effects.
As a Protestant I recognized that was an inaccurate picture. Protestants and Catholics talk past each other on many of these issues. Well catechized Catholics understand that they cannot earn salvation, they believe that they can only grab onto God's grace which has a transformative and salvific effect in their day to day life (primarily through the Sacraments). From a Catholic perspective, Sacraments are God's work, not the individuals.
@@robertguidry2168
Your understanding of the Catholic position is accurate, and I wish both more Catholics and Protestants likewise understood it.
Do you mind if I ask where you came to understand the position?
I really appreciate that Rev. Kim was willing to spend so much time discussing her religion and also the mutual respect with which that discussion took place. And I was grateful for the opportunity to learn.
What a thoughtful, gracious, and learned Pastor (person) she is... ❤ Matt too BTW - much thanks to both
Very interesting. On the face and after watching, Universalism is the natural progression of religion within the context of western philosophical ideas espousing individualism and freedom over everything. Very fascinating.
spot on! 1:21:35 I think is where that is highlighted best
Thank you so much for this conversation. I found it fascinating and learned quite a bit. I appreciate the two of you being able to converse with one another in such a respectful way despite your differences. What a good example!
"What do you get when you cross a UU with a JW? Someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason."
100% correct
JWs are actually ‘Unitarian’ in the fact they reject the Trinity.
Matt could see the apparent reason, but you failed to? Boo.
Or you get someone who never celebrates holidays, birthdays, or anniversaries but also never shows up uninvited and also never stands on the corner with a big display of pamphlets.
A UU will never force you to shun your family or excommunicate you the way JWs, Mormons, or Scientologists would.
A UU will not tell you that you're unworthy of love & forgiveness.
A UU will not demand you *PROVE* that you deserve dignity and respect while they actively disregard your boundaries
A UU will not gatekeep you with a creed doctrine before you are deemed anything but shameful and guilty from sin of some distant fictional ancestor who defies scientific evolutionary principles
@@SpaceCaseZ06 UU won't watch a pedophile as he interacts with children in the temple.
Remarkable interview. I know this will be controversial in some quarters so I'm grateful for this intellectual tour. I never suspected how unique this church was. I had a unitarian church down the road from me in Britain for a number of years, though not a UU church. On the signboard, it bore the inscription "All are welcome". Every time I walked past it, I said to myself "I must go in some day". As a person who follows no religion and does not come from a Christian background, if that church was anything like this one, I could have entertained no idea how welcome I would be.
Thank you Matt. Yours was one of the first Christian channels I subscribed to. I love your curiosity, tolerance, humour, and just all round positive energy. Always has me coming back for more. Salute!
A lot of Unitarian Universalist churches still are named as Unitarian churches, if the church was founded before 1961
Thank you for this helpful understanding of another religion's beliefs, Matt. This is incredibly helfpful for witnessing conversations. My Bible study group is about to start a several-month study comparing core Christian doctrines with the beliefs of other faiths, and I recommended your channel as a resource. I can see this video being particularly useful for those group discussions.
My church did this earlier in the year and it was a wonderful experience. Later it did the same with Native American perspectives. Also valuable.
I think the best part about this is that throughout the video he's basically gone to a month's worth of UU Services. Rev Kim was doing exactly her job in explaining to you what she believes and what she has seen and understands, while also listening to what you know, see, and understand. She is a really impressive speaker and I think this video did a really good job with the broad explanation of Unitarian Universalism.
This great conversation is a testament to you both! Well done!
I found this conversation engrossing. Thank you for having it. Both of y'all.
This is a very uncommonly comprehensive and deep exploration of Unitarian Universalism. I applaud Matt's genuine curiosity in exploring this. I appreciate his breadth of knowledge to compare and contrast other faith traditions.
My gripe is the framing of mainstream Christianity or popular fundamental Christianity as "historical" but historical depends on time and place because early historical Christianity is likely not the same as what Matt is thinking of as "historical".
It would be much more accurate to refer to it as contemporary traditional Christianity
Very interesting way of putting it. Good thought.
I feel like the way you handled talking to someone from a completely different faith was very well-done. Respectful and dignified for their sake. Would you consider doing videos on other faiths like Judaism and Islam?
Thank you Matt Whitman. Thank you Reverend Kim. I am a 61-year old Church of Christ minister. The congregation I grew up in was very fundamentalist and sectarian. The congregation I serve now is much more welcoming and open to asking hard questions of our traditions. I was surprised to hear Reverend Kim use many phrases that have guided our conversations for the last two decades. Those seven principles may be nuanced differently from congregation to congregation but they are certainly worth contemplation. Matt please keep up this great work you are doing.
i'm interested to know what traditions, hard questions and nuanced issues you as a minister of the church of christ are considering.
"the divine that is in each and every one" A statement as old as Genesis 3. Her views of if/how God exists were the most illuminating part of this video.
Thank you for holding this respectful conversation with this reverend, Matt. You wove the gospel into your conversation masterfully. I want to watch this again to study this method of evangelism more deeply. I understand you're a pastor and have more experience with this, but you did this so smoothly and non-awkwardly. It was very admirable.
I appreciate you interviewing this woman and helping us learn about other religions. Keep pushing the boundaries.
Matt, what a terrific job of asking, clarifying, and listening.
I'm a Christ follower, but I don't belong to any tradition and I probably align much more with the Unitarian Universalists than I do with any mainline denomination. This is the first video I have ever seen from this channel and I greatly appreciate how respectfully it was made and how WILDLY informative it was. Matt and I definitely disagree greatly on certain things, but a lot of care was put into this and I think he is trying to do something really good here. I'll definitely be watching some of the other church visits. Great video, both of you did an excellent job.
Amen.
It is Rosh Hashanah and the high holidays this weekend and next. Would you consider visiting different Synagogues? I'd be interested in comparing how Synagogue architecture was adapted into church architecture in symbolism and significance.
You need to go to the Catholic Church re Judaism being united in church architecture, as well as the Mass, because Catholicism is the completion of Judaism.
Yes! If Matt is going to branch out to other religions then I would love to see some Jewish synagogues. Would be a lot more interesting than UU’s.
Agreed! From synagogues to temples. If Jesus can talk to the rabbis at the temple, then Matt should take the time to know the differences between sects of Judaism. I wouldn't mind seeing Matt at Temple Emanu-El in NYC. Or Islam for that matter.
@ditzy.5246
Catholicism is not the completion of but a continuation. Catholic means Universal. The difference between Judaism and Christianity is the recognition of Jesus as the Messiah. Otherwise, every writer of the new testament was a Jew who just so happened to be followers of Christ (who was also a Jew). When Peter went to Antioch, he coined the term Christian.
There are many differences between Church architecture and Synagogue and Temple architecture as there are similarities.
@@m.gattus-reinhart845also a big difference is the importance of ethnicity
As an EFCA pastor in St Louis, I love this! It's great to learn about the beliefs of others. I appreciate your loving approach and willingness share what you believe to be true while graciously disagreeing. Great job and a great example for all of us!
Thank you so much, Matt, for talking to her and not shying away from tough conversations! I was raised in the Unitarian Universalist church, and, as a kid, I never fully understood what they believed. I asked that one time, and at my particular church, the Sunday School teacher told me that we believed whatever we chose to believe. I also heard this language used by members when they would testify to how accepted they felt there, being able to just believe whatever they wanted without judgment.
Long story short, I felt more confused and lost than ever, and through a series of events, I was invited to a Christian camp where I heard about Jesus and the gospel at 15 years old. Our church still refused to believe in what the bible taught, so we ended up leaving after my mom saw how sad and alone I felt in wanting to seek truth and them being unwilling to teach the bible. We began visiting Christian churches, and I started reading the Bible some, but it was still so confusing to me... yet Jesus saved me 11 years later! I've known the Lord now for almost 15 years, and my life has changed radically. I have a big heart for UUs because of my history with them, and I actually found this video because I was hoping to find conversations with them, as well as hopefully more people who have come out of the UU church, like I did.
Thank you for uploading this! This actually gave me a lot more insight into UU than even I was fully aware of. Again, as a kid, I didn't even know what I believed. I knew I believed in God and thought Jesus was just a good historical figure and teacher. I believed He was the Son of God, but even that was only because my mom had Christians witnessing to her and she relayed the information to me. We were just confused all the way around, and we just happened to both be born into this faith. We never fully accepted the teachings, and we certainly didn't believe anything in particular about God other than Him being Creator of everything. We just didn't know or have any thought beyond that. Until God started pursuing me.... and it led to us leaving. Today, theology and apologetics are two things I am VERY passionate about, probably because of my upbringing. So, it's definitely a very long story, and there's so much more even beyond that, but I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to do this video and interview! ❤
This was really thoughtful. I’ve never watched your other videos but just with you opening I could tell you were serious and sincere and respectful. The following talk was spectacular! I’m a lifelong UU and I’ve never heard this reverend’s view on sin before. Thank you so much; your free and responsible search for truth and meaning leading you here is delightful! Well done.
I grew up in the Unitarian Church. It was in the basement of the local Unitarian Church where I became addicted to coffee at age 10. But when my parents allowed me to 'make my own decision' about religion at age 15, I left and never came back. The Unitarian Church, for me, was the religious side of everything that was wrong with the 60s, when I grew up. Unitarian Universalism--again, my take--promoted a kind of quasi-spiritual 'I'm OK, you're OK' approach to life. That sounds good, I'm sure. You don't have to struggle much at all to bring 'I'm OK You're OK' into full alignment with Gn 1:27--but that's not where 'I'm OK, you're OK' naturally leads. No, 'I'm OK, you're OK' ends up at 'If it feels good do it,' and that's no way to lead one's life. The theological problems with Unitarianism, as I understood the discontinuities at age 15, begin first of all with the assertion that the individual is responsible for his or her own salvation. We are the agents of our own salvation. Second, and more bothersome to me at the time, was the assertion that the individual creates his or her own values; there are no objective, universal truths. Sorry, I absolutely do not believe that, and never have. I have always seen God in everything, from earliest youth, even as a child of the pot-smoking 60s. I studied and visited virtually every major Protestant denomination before finally settling on the UCC (United Church of Christ; the Congregational Church), which you really ought to visit while you're making your rounds. My spiritual director, the pastor of our UCC parish, was born in Wisconsin but got his M. Div. in Massachusetts and served congregations throughout New England. Pretty much on a weekly basis Rev. McCain found a way to interject some reference to the Revolutionary War, pointing out that without the Congregational Church there likely never would have been a United States of America. Yeah, you should go to a UCC church. You'll discover theological perspectives and ways of thinking about religion and politics and country that you'll find nowhere else. It seems you like hanging out in St. Louis. Since you've visited the ultra-liberal Unitarian Church, you might consider wandering down to Webster Groves and scheduling some time with Bishop Krebs of the ECC (Ecumenical Catholic Communion), which is a strange mixture of very traditional, very liturgical Catholicism and very modern, liberal ideas on social concerns. I attended mass at the ECC for two years, but it's not for me (I became Roman Catholic after returning from Peace Corps service in West Africa in the early 1980s). My contribution to the discussion: I sense a growing and accelerating absorption of Enlightenment and 1960s-era thinking into churches across the board, and I mean in every Protestant denomination and throughout American Catholicism. My response begins with a decidedly anti-Enlightenment commentary on the first two chapters of Genesis, which I will publish next year under the title The Emerald Hexameron. Interesting discussion with the minister. But even now, more than 50 years after I left the Unitarian Church, I feel no warm fuzzies about the organization. For me, it's a quite unappealing relic from the distant past. Still, I enjoyed the discussion, and look forward to hearing you speak with a real Yankee pastor at a UCC church. Thanks for posting the interview! PM 2023
Interesting response AncientNovelist. The UU fellowship I attend (as well as the Methodist church I've attended since 2001) has a close relationship with my town's UCC church as well as the local Mennonite church and our local Jewish congregation.
@@franksiegle6346 Thanks for the input. I do not recall a single instance at a UU church when a pastor or congregant expressed views I considered hostile toward any group or antithetical toward civilization. I have absolutely heard such views at several conservative churches where people consider themselves Christian. Today we have a clearer sense of why that might be, with a large chunk of declared conservatives lending not only political support but theological support to a large group of people determined to undermine American democracy, led by Tr**p. I see the UU Church as a positive and vital force, but it's not for me. I've moved on from the UCC as well, which is likewise a center of purposeful good. I walk with St. Francis of Assisi, and it is in this walk that I discover new ways of looking at the Christian faith, our relationship with the Earth and with each other. The moral arc of the universe, as I write in one my poems, 'bends not to my will, but to the horizon, to vale and hill.' That is, the Moral Arc does not serve me, personally, but all of Creation, which includes all of humanity. If you'd like to read 'Promise the Dawn' (the poem), check out Earth Anthem: Songs for the March at any online book retailer. At least at the major retailer, you should be able to 'look inside' the book and read the poem so that you don't have to pay for the privilege. You might also check out A Progressive Inclusive Hymnal, Second Edition, whose 289 hymns (598 pages) will give you some idea of my theological perspective. Pax et Bonum. PM 2023
I appreciate this video. I was a CNA when I was younger and I took care of a lady who was part of this church. I always was curious about it. Just for the record I’m a Catholic convert from Protestantism. I like to know more about other religions as well so I can better understand and communicate with others.
This was such an interesting conversation. Thank you, Rev. Kim and Matt!
Matt, you conduct your interviews (as well as the commentary before and after) in a straight-up amazing way. Your kindness and wisdom are an inspiration for me, and I aspire to interact with people who disagree with me as well as you do
(Also I grew up in the EFree church so I'm coming from a highly similar background and theology as you. But I think I would still like your content just as much if I came from a totally different place, and that's the beauty of what you're doing)
Excellent, thoughtful and respectful interview. I've never understood Unitarian Universalism and this really helps. I'm intrigued. I'm an instant fan of the Rev. Kim Mason and her obviously thoughtful responses.
I am very interested in how people from other religions think, and am grateful to have another Christian I can "walk" with as you take the journey. It's also helps to have dialogue with someone if we take the time to know where they are coming from.
I am indeed also grateful for Rev. Kim. I learned so much from her. It is good to step out of our boxes and get to know others who might not think quite like how we do, and have our own belief systems challenged in the process.
Wow, great video as always! I think you accomplished the goal you set up at the beginning respectfully and very well!
These videos are super helpful and encouraging - thank you!
As an LCMS Christian, I really appreciate these videos, Matt. My interpretation of her comments boil down to that statement by C.S. Lewis, we are wired for eternity and worship because she doesn't believe in a supernatural God, but still feels the need to congregate and worship, using worship language, rather than just having a weekly group meeting.
No, she “worships” herself and humanity. That is not worship.
@@billmartin3561, I hear what you're saying, but I would say it's still worship, it's just worship of self and the devil. It's still evident of God wiring us for worship and eternity and it's something we simply can't not do. Unfortunately, our sin nature will lead us to the wrong worship if Jesus isn't our Savior.
@@billmartin3561Stop Judging
@@billmartin3561 Worship literally means to ascribe worth or to shape what is worthy. Humans (people), nature, togetherness, family, friends, acts of kindness, justice, charity, etc., are all things worthy of worship. What keeps coming up in the comments are words like heresy, worship...people use them and simply don't know their ultimate meanings.
I am LCMS now too but for a little while was UU some years ago 😬🤣
Matt, I've got to admit, I thought you'd jumped the shark with this one. I began watching in full skepticism mode. And I was thoroughly impressed with the thoughtful and insightful dialog. Reverend Mason was truly gracious and this was very informative. Definitely a new perspective.
“Can the blind lead the blind? do they not both fall into the ditch.” [Luke 6:39] 🔥♥️
Love this series so much. Would love to see a mainline/UMC church or theologian sometime
Great open honest conversation! Good on you both for getting out of your bubble and being willing to speak on camera no less!
Hey Matt -- I don't know if you'll remember, but you and I communicated by email a few years ago, and I asked if you'd ever considered doing exactly what you accomplished admirably in this video. I appreciated the intro where you made your goals clear. I'm glad you decided to explore this new direction as an enrichment to what you do.
Thank you,Matt and Kim. Great convo.🌹⭐🌹⭐🌹
Very interesting interview handled with grace and dignity in the best way. There is so much we can learn from things like this. I truly appreciate your work.
Matt, The idea that you can atone for your sin after death is NOT a "Catholic notion of purgatory", Catholics do not believe that one can "atone" for your sin after death, but that purgatory is the natural suffering process one must experience as they are being cleansed of any sinful attachments still present at the time of their death.
Jesus nailed it all to the Cross. The blood of Jesus is enough. He alone is Worthy.
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10
And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 1 Peter 2:24
As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Psalm 103:12
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Revelation 12:11
As a kid attending a UU Church in the 1970s, none of it made any sense. Matt's conversation with Rev. Kim Mason helpfully explains for me the history of why the adults at our church were so self obsessed, broken, and lost. Thank you Matt for helping me to process some of my childhood. It seems to me the search for meaning in this life, divorced from a God that has revealed Himself to mankind, leads either to complete nihilism or a simulacrum of meaning from a theology of intersectionality, wherein every individual envisions the universal meaning focused on their own identities. Thanks Matt for another great video.
It sounds more as if you were self obsessed, broken, and lost. What makes you think your childlike view of adults is an accurate assessment of their state of being?
I for one have found greater meaning in this life once I gave up the notion of some creator God (or devotion to any other God/dess(s) for that matter)
I’m glad you are happy and at peace with your life and I wish you all the very best. I know that there is a lot of “bad” Christianity out there. I can’t speak to the current state of the UU Church, but back then it was a lot of drugs, free love, adultery, and wreckage. Simple atheism would have been preferable. @@kitiowa
@@kitiowayou don't know what behaviors or personalities he is basing this comment on. You're defending people you don't know, with zero context, because they happen to agree more closely with your position on God. Tribal mentality
@@stevenyoung3752 No, I was replying to what was written and the context given in that persons post. The original poster made the broad sweeping characterizations of others. The original poster also was denigrating those who don't share their Theistic notions. I was basing my comment on the person commenting, not those they were commenting about.
@@stevenyoung3752 Like many of the UU bashing comments here, he is qualifying and entire group of people, and that certainly sounds like tribal mentality.
Also, I think your intro was pertinent and important! I hope every time you go outside of Christianity you preface a video like that so new or one-time watchers are aware of your goal!
I learn so much about conversing respectfully when I watch your more difficult visits, so thank you. This one was both enlightening and exhausting.
Since Matt is now branching out into other religions it would be really interesting to see him visit some synagogues.
Agree
Non Christian religion might not be his interest.
I grew up Unitarian Universalist. It was confusing and massively uncomfortable and we had YOUTH LED co-ed lock-ins. Boundaries and definitions were so wishy washy. My grandpa was a southern baptist minister and naval pastor and I ran to him at 18 for guidance lol.
I grew up as a Catholic. In high school, one of my closest friends took me to her Universal Unitarian Church. I finally felt like I belonged. That was many years ago and am still UU to this day.
@@kathypatterson6813 Very different experiences and people :) Everyone is. But I think it's very strange how UUism is kind of a DIY religious experience.
It's important to learn about other religions and cultures. But I do not agree with how confused it makes children or a lotttttt of the stuff I was exposed to growing up in UUism. And OWL starting in kindergarten is crazy.
Are you not familiar with the long and storied history of catholic priests systematically raping young boys?
Your politeness and patience is really quite amazing! Bob Passintino advocating using the golden rule in apologetic discussion. Great great application! Taking notes
I am a UU and I think this conversation was brilliant. I appreciate your desire to know more about a different tradition then put in the energy and time to seek out the knowledge by connecting with an authoritative voice. Your respectful and curious questions were top notch! I wonder what the world would look like if we all approached the larger religious conversation this way..? Cheers!
I am a new Christian and my mind does not understand how people believe that Jesus is God himself. I understood everything now when i found UU thank you 🥰
She generally answers with grace and openness, she did great. Her total refusal to make any sort of notion of a notion regarding the afterlife is...interesting. There's a lot going on behind that nonanswer.
Yes she’s an atheist or agnostic. wanting to use relativist modern philosophy and the slightest grain of theology to influence people is what I took away from that conversation
Not only does she not believe in an after life...... When Matt asks her If she hopes there is a heaven she can't even answer that. Yes a lot of relativism answers aka my truth , your truth. Unfortunately there is only "the truth" that doesn't bend.
To be fair, Christianity in general doesn't say very much at all about what the afterlife is like. It's mostly just a general description of whats going to happen in the "macro" sense. you die, then a resurrection and a judgement and a new earth. How that happens and in what way, and how long that'll be as it plays out is not really known.
@@catholicguy1073can’t believe this religious leader is trying to influence people!
@@obamna666 she’s using an avenue where she will have a influence of the community. People and in many cases rightly so defer some wisdom to someone who is a pastor, teacher, academic. It’s when this is done to a degree that people forget to really lose their own sense of what the person is teaching. Being unable as the Bible says to point out the “false teacher,” and they are legion in our society
This was incredible! The conversation was extremely healthy, helpful, and thought provoking! As a follower of Christ who is convinced by some of the more liberal agreements such as theistic evolution, affirming theology for queer folks, and church leadership not being neglected for differences in gender, but ability and study, I appreciated this even more so. You have a classical liberal lens with the creeds and a more intentional equality position going over the overlap and distinction that help us get along more. Here’s an idea/question this brings that I have had for awhile: the stereotype of more « progressive » sects of Christianity is that they just believe in a mushy God of love without substance. I think that is incredibly unhelpful and incredibly uninformed. So I would love to see this type of video with a creedal, Jesus believing, biblically sound, liberal church. Specifically Zach Lambert down at Restore in Austin Texas has been about as helpful to me as you have Matt. I would love to see that conversation and it would be awesome to hear a steel man of a more « liberal » church in this awesome series. Zach Lambert is far from the only person, but he is my top suggestion of course! 😊
This might be my favorite one yet! You both were awesome!
I am so excited to see/hear all you are exploring.
Thank you so much for this video. As a Christian I work and am surrounded by people that follow other religions (Hindu, Muslim, Bahai etc) so I like to try to understand other religions from those that practice them. I respect their right to worship the way they choose, and they know that I am a Christian and often ask questions which I am happy to answer and we have respectful discussions. So good to see you having such a respectful and deep discussion with Rev Mason, it was interesting to learn about Unitarianism, I had a high level idea of their beliefs, but theological deep dive was great. I wouldn't mind seeing more of these types of discussions. Great job!
As they say in Australia: "Good on yer.!"
I am a 30 year UU. This is a lovely conversation. It is a demonstration of what UU is.🙏
Such an informative conversation. If we could all sit down and honestly share different opinions as this, how much better our world would be!
Aye.
Hey man, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for the respect you showed in this video. Among people my age, your character and open mind do much more to repair the reputation of Christianity than any logical argument could. Keep at it brother!
I'd argue the most "successful" Sunday School series I've ever led was one on the different major world religions. Taking such a close, respectful look at the genuine beliefs of other religions was not only fascinating and fun but it also helped the class learn about and wrestle with - by contrast - what they ACTUALLY believed as nominally orthodox creedal Christians. A few even started thinking, "Wait a minute. Am I really a _____ more than a Christian?" It was both fantastic from a truth-telling perspective and a huge pastoral challenge.
Thanks for doing this talk. Keep it up! And special thanks to Rev. Kim Mason. She was wonderful. I have to admit her calling out folks with, "Well, the remaining Universalists just joined the mainline denominations," was a HUGE burn that I enjoyed probably far too much.
You just described the typical UU Sunday school.
@@Marinette.1 The difference, of course, being that our classes always affirmed orthodox Christianity. Invoking Lewis here: "If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through... you are free to think that all these religions, even the queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth... But, of course, being a Christian does mean thinking that where Christianity differs from other religions, Christianity is right and they are wrong. As in arithmetic-there is only one right answer to a sum, and all other answers are wrong: but some of the wrong answers are much nearer being right than others." This is just the natural state of believing any of them. By selecting one, you are effectively de-selecting the others. Not out of malice but from honest conviction.
@@jsharp3165 Problem with Lewis, I think, was that he was kind of equating apples with oranges...or celery. heh heh. If you get my drift.
@@franksiegle6346 I'm not sure what you are saying. How is he comparing apples to oranges? That implies that someone is either ignorantly or deceptively equating two unequal things. Lewis was saying that apples and oranges ARE different. That's his whole point. And that while it's not wrong to point out they have some similarities (seeds, water, skins, etc.) that at the end of the day they are not the same. And that it's dishonest to say that they are. Modernists and universalists try to say all religions are the same and all are equally valid. Christianity cannot say that and still be internally consistent. They are NOT all the same.
I can’t count all the heresy.
This was very cool and enlightening, Thank you Mr. Whitman.
"These are mashed potatoes, but they're not mashed, and they're not potatoes." -Unitarian Universalism 2023
Half way through listening and the more and more she speaks , it's clear there's no actual function of this "church" as they are a la carte in their beliefs that can seemingly contradict itself , she takes so long to respond that she's not sure what she or the "church" or the "congregation " actually hold true or is tip toeing around what they do. Pray for em.
Are you talking about the Unitarian Universalist brain?
@@crushtheserpent yes, she is lost and needs prayer for reconciliation to Christ and to shed these false beliefs
@@jarontaliman1 and @crushtheserpent it sounds like from your faith perspective it's okay to bash and misrepresent people from other faith perspective. Really contrary to the spirit and attitude that Matt used on this interview.
Great example of strawman fallacy.
Matt, I have gained more respect for you seeing that you've made this video and the respect you're treating it with. I am sort of what some would call a "Christian" Universalist. I have listened to some of your podcasts, watched a number of your videos, and I really enjoy your perspective. Thanks for this!
Christian Universalist is a pretty good fit for me, too. Thanks for that.
Yes, I appreciate the time she spent with you to share her beliefs.
Yeah, she served up a word salad for lunch with zero nourishment.
Christian Unitarian Universalist Liberal Christianity….Kamala Harris, is that you?! 😂
Great thoughtful conversation. Thank you
While I think of myself as a mostly orthodox (small "o") Protestant, I do think we are here to use our hearts and heads to figure things out. As CS Lewis said in his radio broadcasts, "God wants us to grow up!" That's not scriptural, but I think it's true.
Most Christians only think about 1 Corinthians 13 as being about Love, but it also says some very deep things about how little we understand - and ever will understand - in this world. After Paul's amazing desription of love, and what it does, he then says,
"But where there are prophecies, they will cease, where there are tongues they will be stilled, and where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
For we know in part, and we prophecy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect (what we know in part) goes away.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish things behind me.
Now we see only as a reflection in a mirror (I have studied ancient mirrors - they are necessarilly small, not much bigger than your face, and indeed, they were mainly used for looking at oneself, for applying makeup or cleaning one's face). Then we shall see face-to-face. Then we shall face-to-face. (Does this not imply that now, we tend to see God as a representation of ourselves, instead of seeing ourselves as a representation of God?) Now we know in part. Then we shall know fully, even as we are fully known.
But for now, these three remain: faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love."
It strikes me that Paul in the Scripture (and therefore God) is talking about how little we know, even with our God-breathed, Holy Scripture.
Former Catholic here who has become a Unitarian. I am grateful to this denomination because when I felt in every fiber of mine that I cannot be a Christian anymore, I don't agree with the most important tenets of Christianity, I cannot be part of a movement which - although represents many good values - surrendered its voice, public image to the worst, loudest hateful and intolerant people, Unitarianism allowed me to keep my faith in God without forcing me to accept a certain image of God.
It allowed me to have questions that cannot be answered and to steer clear of answers that cannot be questioned.
As a musician who had certain experiences I cannot be an Atheist.
And I think there are millions out there who see this issue exactly as we do. They are Unitarians without knowing that they are.
I live in Romania, the part called Transylvania where this religion was born (also in Poland at around the same time in the 16th century), but I was in the USA when iot happened.
I was fed up with the spewing of hatred and intolerance, I knew by then that I was no Catholic and no Christian anymore but I had no framework for my faith.
Then a friend of mine asked me to compose the soundtrack of an audiobook "The Unitarian Path". And I found myself agreeing with every word that was said there.
The rest as they say it, is history.
Congrats...you are part of the Falling Away in the end times.
@@jesuschristmyking8644😢 May God open your eyes.
You are the one blinded. @@Beriabi
This is amazing!!! More more more of different of this please!
Matt, I love your videos. I am an ELCA Lutheran, would love to see you do a video on the ELCA, its history and the full communion movement the ELCA has entered into with other church bodies.
Also an ELCA Lutheran and I agree! I know he's done a video on the Missouri synod, but honestly... I'm not sure I even consider these two to be the same denomination. Sure, they may be Lutheran but they also believe that female pastors are contrary to scripture. (While, yes I agree, taken literally the scripture is quite clear on women's roles. I also believe that the scripture isn't always meant to be taken so literally, especially as culture and humanity changes.)
@@BraydenPrice30 not to argue, but the LCMS is the better example of authentic and historic Lutheranism, hence why it was chosen. I think you might agree the ELCA is Lutheran in name only.
@@BraydenPrice30 truth does not change with the times…
LCMS doesn't consider them the same denomination either. ELCA is not in altar or pulpit fellowship with LCMS. Your female pastor reference is just a small example of the major difference between the two. Is the bible inspired or inerrant? @@BraydenPrice30
How do you know what questions to ask? You did a great job as an interviewer! Thank you for drawing this conversation out.
Thank you for doing this. I've always wondered what the Unitarian Universalist church was all about.
There is a UU church right next to mine. I knew they had strange beliefs, but thanks for having this interview because it helped me understand them better.
My students are studying the view of Christ from a wide variety of "beliefs" such as those of Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Unitarian Universalists, and others. As we watched, my students, who are predominantly Christian, were amazed at the civil conversation you had with Pastor Kim. While we had plenty of information to process and discuss in class, we were able to "get" so much more because of the awesome way you presented the gospel "with gentleness and respect." All I can say is Wow!...Thank you!...Praise the Lord! We'll be praying for Pastor Kim to come to Jesus as Lord and for your ministry.
To me it is really interesting to see different beliefs. So I like that you are branching out, but also that you are comming to this with a definite christian lens.
Having had been a UU for years, the minister correctly articulated my understanding of the UU position, which is inclusiveness and tolerance for all people since (1) we all have genuine inherent worth, and (2) that all have a unique set of beliefs that should be accepted as genuinely as our own is genuine. Accordingly, I wasn’t surprised by the level of honest candor by the minister. UUs freely and honestly admit that they don’t have the answers but are unwilling to accept systems of thought that presume to know the truth for others. Yet, what I found missing from the forms and words of their services, which had the appearance of a Christian service, was that there was no foundation to it and therefore meaningless to me. Later, having read the Westminster Confession of Faith, I rediscovered my foundation, that is Christ and his sacrifice for my sins.
1:28:37-1:31:00 is a very honest, painful moment and to me a very telling moment of why she's where she is theologically. The most common Christian view of atonement is a forensic one that says God is angry, so much so he can't even look at you and something needed to be done to make him not angry anymore. Different denominations have different ways of resolving how they think God was appeased but they're all trying to solve a problem that paints God as an angry pegan deity. I don't see this model of atonement as biblical (John 14:9) and if I'm reading between the lines correctly she is saying that she doesn't accept it either. How can God be loving if the base premise is "if you step out of line even once... I'll kill you! To show you how serious I am I will publicly kill my son to sgow you what your in for". She seems to be rejecting the premise that this kind of God could be described as kind or inclusive. She's rejecting a kingdom that she's been told already rejects her. So instead she looks within herself and her own thoughts for the righteousness she didn't find in the "Christian" God.
Matt and most Protestants are wrong on the nature of the human person. We are not corrupt to the core, we are pure at the core. Our sin makes us dirty, but it is washed away with repentance and God’s grace through the precious blood of Christ. This grace is infused in us, transforming us…not imputed on us, just covering our sin. Martin Luther got this very wrong, due to his own self loathing.
100% agree. I grew up in a weird mishmash of Catholicism and Calvinism, and it messed with my head. I simply couldn't square "God is love" with "obey me or burn." Others struggle with it too, and some folks end up on the liberal end of the Christian spectrum because of it, or end up walking away from the whole thing.
I don't know how common what you are saying is. I don't mean at all to negate what you are saying. That is not uncommon in our faith, unfortunately. But Christianity is such a big tent with so many different interpretations and perspectives, that such is certainly there - especially among the more conservative sects. But it is far from being universal.
Yeah, the typical Protestant ideas of the atonement in America aren't really all that spiritually elavating, indeed.
But I think the pastor's point is more profound. We should live in a way that helps other people find dignity in themselves, that's what agape, love, means.
@@Magnulus76 Well said! Personally, the most powerful point that has returned dignity and self respect is seeing God not in a forensic light (as a demanding dictator who says "do exactly what I say or I'll kill you") but instead, like the father in the prodigal son, God is pursuing us, willing for us to turn back to Him where He graciously returns us to full honor as a son! Not worried about our legal standing but wanting to heal us as our Heavenly Physician! The most stirring evidence are the words of Jesus himself in John 10:30 and again in 14:9 "I and the Father are one" and "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father", meaning if you've seen the loving character of Jesus, the Father is exactly the same!
I can't believe the level of grace patience the people of the comment section showed this lady. These protestant channels very often bring out the best in people.
It would be fascinating to hear a conversation between you and Brad Jersak, Gregory Boyd, WM Young, Robin Parry, Brian Zahnd, Richard Rohr, NT Wright, Pete Enns, and/or Tim Mackie. Any chance these types of conversations might be in the future of the channel?
When I have visited UU churches, and spoken with members, it was common to find individuals who had been hurt (felt that their inherent worth and dignity were not affirmed) by their childhood and young adult churches. I do believe that many Christian churches of all denominations can learn from UU Churches:
1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person
2. Justice, equity and compassion in human relation
3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations
4. A free and responsible search for truth and meaning
7. Respect for the interdependent web of existence of which we are all a part
Ex Muslim unbeliever here. Glad you did this. I come here to learn about doctrinal and liturgical differences between Christian denominations, however off the beaten path or heterodox. You are a wonderful guide to all this, with a winning personality. Now let me watch the rest of this.
Look into Oriental Orthodoxy brother. May God guide you.
@@timeisfleeting2452 I myself am part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, part of sister churches of Oriental Orthodoxy. Our Coptic Church was founded by Christ who gave the authority to St. Mark to spread the word and when he came to Egypt, we were established. Though our church’s motherland is from Egypt, the gospel of course is not specific to a region but is open to all and currently the Church is made up of many members from different backgrounds. The Coptic church is an Orthodox Church meaning it is biblical, apostolic, sacramental, patristic, etc. Orthodoxy means “straight line” or the right way… as we do not change anything. Everything we receive is everything as pass down and can be traced by to the early church and of course the Bible since everything we do is based on the Word of God. Though the Orthodox Church is split into 2 churches, the Oriental and the Eastern. Though the Eastern Orthodox Church split from us in the 5th century, they are still close and beloved brothers but we differ in our understanding of the Nature of Christ and other small things.
The Orthodox Church is a Church founded on both knowledge and experience of God. It is a living faith, a practical faith. We take the words of the Bible and pray our liturgy with them, we take the teachings of the fathers and saints and live by them in hope of revealing the Image of God in us and receiving salvation.
The Pillars of our Church are St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Athansius of Alexandria, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, St. Severus, St. Dioscorus, etc.
if you would like to read/ listen to fathers of contemporary time I recommend Pope Shenouda, St. Pope Kyrillos VI, Bishop Youssef of SUS. They have many lectures and writings. Also wherever you are in the world, I am sure there is a Coptic church near by. Find it, visit it, and May God lead you to the truth. If you would like we can exchange contacts and continuing our discussions.
I see three comments here, but only two are visible to me. To the second person who replied, or perhaps it was the same person, I cannot read your response.
*Edit: response to Philipp Brogli*
I left you two replies since yesterday and both were censored by the algorithm. This happens frequently. I will embed my answer in this existing comment as a workaround. Let's hope it works. My response:
We seem to have the same taste in religious content. I liked the interview. It's compulsive viewing. It's Christianity versus the Enlightenment, more or less, with some mysticism thrown in on the rationalist side. My head says the Unitarian Bishop is closer to the mark. It's not the trinity that gives me problems, as she indicates. I'm okay with that. God, if he is so powerful and otherworldly as is maintained, may take any form he pleases. Three in one, four in one, ten in one. Doesn't bother me. It's why I don't have a problem with polytheism either. The divine is mysterious by definition.
No, it's something else. It's just the whole supernatural framework. After Islam, I struggle with the idea. But my heart is with Matt. I think progressive Christianity cannot endure. We live in such a post-religious society that sooner or later the liberal church will shade into the dominant secular culture. I think religion needs to be conservative if it is to survive, and to stay aloof from the cultural tide.
That said, a liberal church is still better than mass atheism. It builds community and reminds one of higher ideals to live for than chasing the next dopamine rush. My preference is for a traditional prayer house with a traditional liturgy, but I would attend a Unitarian church if the need arose.
@@timeisfleeting2452It makes sense that I would find you here. What did you think about this conversation?
@@philippbrogli779 _Herr_ Brogli, my old nemesis. You're stalking me round the Web, I gather. You make a brother feel on edge.
I don't know, I thought it was compulsive viewing. I was gripped the whole way through. I'm closer in belief to the Unitarian Bishop (I hope I have not misremembered the minister's title), but I was conscious of a discomfit throughout. A nervous tension. Not sure why. Or rather, I think I do. Let me explain.
_Intellectually_ I'm at one with her. I find the supernatural difficult, to put it mildly. Islam has ruined it for me.
_Emotionally_ though, my sympathies are with Matt. I believe faith, if it is to endure, must be conservative, must find its vitality in the scriptures. I _like_ the idea of Scripture. I like the very word. That hefty, wrist straining bulk of vellum and ink we all so venerate but hardly read called the Bible. For me a whole romance is wrapped around it. I don't want a vague, maybe this, maybe that, kind of faith. I need something concrete and traditional.
I guess it's what the historian Jacques Barzun calls Primitivism: a recurrent yearning in civilisation to return to the past, no doubt an imaginary past with its moral failings airbrushed out, but a living past that gave us steeples, Gothic architecture, and rich literature like the 1662 Book of Common Prayer nevertheless.
I'm at home with the Old Time Religion more than I am with progressive Christianity, or at least I think I am from this safe distance, detached as I am from the sectarian quarrels I see among conservatives. But can I bring myself to believe it? That's the question. Still, I would gladly attend this minister's church and gladly partake in the "Great Mystery". Though it would not be my first choice, at this point, given the broken lives I've seen upclose in our post-religious society, the liberal church is to be preferred to unbelief.
This was a great conversation.
Another great interview !
Love your work Matt.