It could very well mean he gets a lead then camps so hard his opppnenta just don’t want to sit through the rest of the game and quit out. The disconnects could be either player.
@@drlytwatcher2646 there is different where the player that disconnect doesn't get a win or a loss and the other player get a win, I think regardless of if he was ahead or behind. Guy with lots of d/c are basically disconnecting to avoid their incoming loss but the other player get his win.
@@drlytwatcher2646 Does the point where he introduces “well what do we do while we’re waiting for Player A to report to us” mean the rest of the video is talking about collecting data on the disconnecting side of the game exclusively? Because at 3:52 he explains that the disconnects which follow either happen because someone had bad internet, or because they played with someone who did. If he means accidental disconnects like power outages then I can’t see how the data he shows next means we only see people who were the disconnecters.
@@drlytwatcher2646 yep! and later in the video he says he says a disconnect can be caused by playing against someone with bad internet :) when he’s going over the list he just says it’s “games with an abandonment” not “games where this player disconnected from”
Damn I love this content and your style. I would love to see more breakdowns on systems like this. It's very interesting seeing how this works behind the scenes
Thank you, Billy the Cheater (and honorable mentions for the other two-and-a-half). You've brought this channel to my attention, and that's all you'll ever contribute to the Melee community. I do, in this particular case, suggest you rest on your laurels, as it's surely the only valuable contribution you'll ever make.
I really appreciate this! Had another game where this exact same thing was happening and the despite a few people bringing it to the devs attention, they let the cheater stay on top of the ladder for a really, REALLY long time. And even once they decided to correct it, the only action they took was cutting their rank down by 1/3rd. Didn't even ban them!
4:09 I mean, with the fact that most of the disconnects were actually “evens,” and the “behinds” were about the same as his number of wins, this dude may have just been like a serial rage-quitter Like he’s not even trying to alter results and avoid losing he just gets stomp-knee’d once and throws his computer off the desk lol
"Even" probably means disconnecting game 3 though. More than likely, the player narrowly wins game 1, and proceeds to get walloped the next two, disconnecting on the last stock of the last match.
I love these explanation videos, as they put end to cheating rumors once and for all and makes everything nice and transparent. But I also fear that if someone really really wanted to cheat on online leaderboards, these videos would also give a lot of info on how not to get caught.
yeah, it's always gonna be a race to find ways to cheat and the devs patching it, this just speeds up the process a bit for both sides I think (assuming each method of cheating is found and easily patched obviously)
Yeah but just like in this case just because you think you are getting away with something doesn't mean they aren't actually tracking it all behind the scenes- I wouldn't be surprised if they have a few more tricks up their sleeves that they have deliberately not made public that will catch people who try and exploit what on the surface look like weak spots in the system.
I think you'll find that they aren't anywhere close to giving away all their detection secrets... this is low-hanging fruit, the type of cheating that far more people are likely to try because it's seemingly "harmless" & doesn't involve actual code manipulation. You'd be surprised how many people will stop disconnecting like this once they know the server owners are watching, which is what this video was about.
Tekken 7 has the same problem by the way. They didn't do anything about it, now we just encounter "Tekken God" etc ranked players who do junkyard, snake edge, ali kicks etc and disconnect.
The best part is this has been a Solved Problem literally ever since the conception of server-controlled matchmaking in video games. You give matchmaking queue penalties to repeat disconnects. Eventually they just literally can't get into a Good Boys And Girls Pool game when they want to actually play, and nobody ever has to deal with them ever again. ✨
Hi AltF4, thank you for posting this video.I have one concern with what you have shown. Are you actually displaying the real account of these cheaters? If so I have to disagree with the way you went about dealing with this situation. I am not condoning the actions of these cheating players and I understand what they did was wrong. However displaying their accounts for everyone to see will only encourage a mob mentality to try to hunt down these players and harrass them. As a developer I believe it would have been enough to just ban the players without the need to display their accounts. Seeing how you have an intutive way to detect them, I believe there should be no need to expose these indvidiuals to the public eye. I have to reitreate that I am not condoning the actions these players, I and I believe a ban is a fair judgement on your part. Thank you for your insight on how you went about to find these players.
I don't know why, but its so satisfying seeing the process you go through for these Edit: I love at 4:13 the first person with 11 disconnections is such a perfect example of someone who potentially just has really bad connection issues Though this is assuming even is defined in a way that they couldn't exploit that (which I dont see how they could but this is your field, not mine)
I really don't understand why someone would want to boost their ranking by quitting out. Nobody cares if you get a high ranking, because if you can't perform against even a half-decent player in a tournament setting, no one will think you're any good. And it will be VERY apparent if you actually suck. You don't get the satisfaction of improving, and you put in a ridiculous amount of work just quitting out, to the point that I can't imagine it's any fun to log on. So what do it?!
I assume the player that disconnects will always assume the loss, and also that average ping will be playable, but in the event that lag is an issue is there a way for both parties to agree on cancelling? Online tournaments and previous ranked sites would have lag tests and I am curious if you will be implementing something like this or if there is no need to. There also is no way to dispute a match to my knowledge so I think it would be a really beneficial feature to have despite being an extra step.
I haven’t played ranked but I’ve had plenty of band connections before and have been curious to know how this would work. Gentleman’s agreement to cancel would be a nice feature
people like this are why I stopped playing ranked in Pokken, because there it would deny the win to the person you pulled the plug against. So you would get people who have "won" hundreds of matches but haven't gotten credit for any of them and just get stuck unable to increase their own rank legitimately. It's always good to see the ones in charge do something about this though to give the losses to those that drop the game, and the wins to the ones they tried to cheat.
Sometimes I have a disconnect but I don’t know why. Does being on WiFi make a disconnect more possible? My laptop does not have a Ethernet plug in. But I don’t run anything else in the WiFi when I play and I usually google WiFi test at 185mbps with upload speed of 4mbps
I love that they had ways to tell who was disconnecting for gain lol. Just makes the cheaters look even more dumb for doing it when they could be easily caught lmao.
I've noticed similar behavior in Taiko no Tatsujin and Tekken 7 as well. My opponents would instantly disconnect after they missed their first note, or after they see my name, because they didn't want to get beaten by me again.
I vote that you make the # of disconnects visible on a player's profile, along with those stats you're showing too. :) Might prevent people from doing it if they know it's going to show up somewhere.
There is a lot of incentive because it's always just been played amongst friends and in salty arguments it comes up like "I beat so and so and they beat you, you only can beat me because of the match up and other johns!" And now they can go online and cheat and get a good rank to "prove" to their friends that they are the best player even though they always lose and that their John's are justified. There might be more incentive to cheat online amongst low level smashers than any other esport because they actually have friends they physically play the game with.
Leaving to avoid taking an L plagued Soulcalibur 6 at the beginning and there were players with 100% winrates at the top of the leaderboards. Nobody rematched and people who did frequently would disconnect on Round 3 if they were losing. It was awful.
question: couldn't this incentivize a player to have some disconnects while they are ahead at a similar rate than they abandon losses to keep it "mostly even" and avoid being banned for gaming the system? is this something that the system is able to spot as anomalous?
@@mnemony3151 Thats the simple part. But the more indepth like. How does he think of himself. What does having a high rank on a comunity driven ranking gives you? Do they they have anything else that they can call their own? Stuff like that
The first race are the Caltoreans. They are a race of hyper-intelligent humanoids who have advanced their technology and society nearly three thousand years ahead of anyone else in the Zova system. Their whole world is composed of a global tech park, dedicated to the sciences and arts. The Caltoreans may be arrogant, and maybe even antisocial at times, but they are always curious. The second race are the Dragorigans. Everything they lack in terms of technology and society they make up for in combative ability and especially size. The planet itself, Drangerek, can be compared to eight Jupiters arranged in a cube form in terms of size. These titans actually keep dragons as little pets. They are very primative, agressive, and unintelligent. However, they do have a strong advantage against others due to their advanced size, allowing them to crush any opponents they meet with little to no effort. The third race are the Caltoreans. They are a race of hyper-intelligent humanoids who have advanced their technology and society nearly three thousand years ahead of anyone else in the Zova system. Their whole world is composed of a global tech park, dedicated to the sciences and arts. The Caltoreans may be arrogant, and maybe even antisocial at times, but they are always curious. The fourth race are the Dragorigans. Everything they lack in terms of technology and society they make up for in combative ability and especially size. The planet itself, Drangerek, can be compared to eight Jupiters arranged in a cube form in terms of size. These titans actually keep dragons as little pets. They are very primative, agressive, and unintelligent. However, they do have a strong advantage against others due to their advanced size, allowing them to crush any opponents they meet with little to no effort.
That poor guy with 6/7 disconnects happening while he's ahead
It could very well mean he gets a lead then camps so hard his opppnenta just don’t want to sit through the rest of the game and quit out. The disconnects could be either player.
@@lohn2559 At 0:47 he explains that there's a difference in the match reporting between the person who disconnected and the person who didn't
@@drlytwatcher2646 there is different where the player that disconnect doesn't get a win or a loss and the other player get a win, I think regardless of if he was ahead or behind. Guy with lots of d/c are basically disconnecting to avoid their incoming loss but the other player get his win.
@@drlytwatcher2646 Does the point where he introduces “well what do we do while we’re waiting for Player A to report to us” mean the rest of the video is talking about collecting data on the disconnecting side of the game exclusively?
Because at 3:52 he explains that the disconnects which follow either happen because someone had bad internet, or because they played with someone who did. If he means accidental disconnects like power outages then I can’t see how the data he shows next means we only see people who were the disconnecters.
@@drlytwatcher2646 yep! and later in the video he says he says a disconnect can be caused by playing against someone with bad internet :) when he’s going over the list he just says it’s “games with an abandonment” not “games where this player disconnected from”
I love that billy imagines himself to have the skill of someone whose 23-2 but can't beat a single good player once he's there
BIG BAD BIDDEFORD BILLY?! 🤣
>tries to exploit system
23 wins 188 losses
I almost respect the persistence
Westballz catching strays killed me
Damn I love this content and your style. I would love to see more breakdowns on systems like this. It's very interesting seeing how this works behind the scenes
I read this in the voice of Jerry Seinfeld
"Yeah I'm pretty good at Melee, I'm 23-2(00) on Ranked nbd"
Fizzi built the palace and AltF4 defends it with motion sensing laser turrets.
Thank you, Billy the Cheater (and honorable mentions for the other two-and-a-half). You've brought this channel to my attention, and that's all you'll ever contribute to the Melee community. I do, in this particular case, suggest you rest on your laurels, as it's surely the only valuable contribution you'll ever make.
Well. He's banned now. So really no choice but to rest on his laurels lol
5:04 shoryuken
best comment right here
lmao i was like halfway paying attention and was also confused why he said shoryuken
@@emprox1 lol
23W-188L. Thats a big OOF from me
Probably better than my rate. But im not cheating at least ;D
@@robbyz512 lol.
@@robbyz512
Dude, what's your problem? He wasn't "bragging" about not cheating.
@@robbyz512 What made you think he was bragging and why do you have such a flawed and bias views?
Agreed, integrity and sportsmanship are for the weak and frightened. I'm gonna cheat. I'm not scared, I'll cheat right here in the comments.
hey im in this video! im still stuck in gold without cheating btw lol
I believe in you
We had a good set earlier today ggs
This was awesome - I’d love more videos going over your dev stuff, Slippi related or not. Such an awesome kind of “dev log”
I really appreciate this! Had another game where this exact same thing was happening and the despite a few people bringing it to the devs attention, they let the cheater stay on top of the ladder for a really, REALLY long time. And even once they decided to correct it, the only action they took was cutting their rank down by 1/3rd. Didn't even ban them!
Maybe as a warning?
@@Noahtheorigianl when you keep a cheater's rank your entire ladder becomes suspect. I think they were just being lazy.
4:09 I mean, with the fact that most of the disconnects were actually “evens,” and the “behinds” were about the same as his number of wins, this dude may have just been like a serial rage-quitter
Like he’s not even trying to alter results and avoid losing he just gets stomp-knee’d once and throws his computer off the desk lol
He actually just instantly disconnected from any good player he recognized
"Even" probably means disconnecting game 3 though.
More than likely, the player narrowly wins game 1, and proceeds to get walloped the next two, disconnecting on the last stock of the last match.
Probably best to learn to control your emotions then
Love this video, super interesting to see behind the scenes of slippi. Please do more!
I like how Wes is the control variable
I have a 200 word essay due tomorrow, but AltF4 just dropped a new video... idk what I'm gonna do!
Watch the video and then hammer it out. It's 200 words. I believe in you!
this comment had 20 words in it
bait
love all the transparency of this. good stuff
Love the EFF hoodie! Wonderful explanation, love you pulling up westballz' record 😂😂
Really good video ! I liked it, the pacing is good and the explanations are perfect. Keep it up !
Have you ever tried to jump into one of these paintings behind you for absolutely no reason?
AltF4 uses GIMP, let's go. Great video once again. I love learning about this technical Slippi stuff.
Press 5:04 to hear AltF4 say SHORYUKEN!
they put altf4 in street fighter 2 (real)
Amazing video! Thank you so much for the thorough explanation and breakdown of the system and situation.
I played billy lol, I destroyed him and he just disconnects lol.
I love these explanation videos, as they put end to cheating rumors once and for all and makes everything nice and transparent.
But I also fear that if someone really really wanted to cheat on online leaderboards, these videos would also give a lot of info on how not to get caught.
yeah, it's always gonna be a race to find ways to cheat and the devs patching it, this just speeds up the process a bit for both sides I think (assuming each method of cheating is found and easily patched obviously)
Yeah but just like in this case just because you think you are getting away with something doesn't mean they aren't actually tracking it all behind the scenes- I wouldn't be surprised if they have a few more tricks up their sleeves that they have deliberately not made public that will catch people who try and exploit what on the surface look like weak spots in the system.
I think you'll find that they aren't anywhere close to giving away all their detection secrets... this is low-hanging fruit, the type of cheating that far more people are likely to try because it's seemingly "harmless" & doesn't involve actual code manipulation. You'd be surprised how many people will stop disconnecting like this once they know the server owners are watching, which is what this video was about.
I just watched this whole video with intense interest and I have no idea what game he is talking about.
Smash bros melee on PC
it is so insanely cool that we live in a world where this comment can exist
Tekken 7 has the same problem by the way. They didn't do anything about it, now we just encounter "Tekken God" etc ranked players who do junkyard, snake edge, ali kicks etc and disconnect.
The best part is this has been a Solved Problem literally ever since the conception of server-controlled matchmaking in video games. You give matchmaking queue penalties to repeat disconnects. Eventually they just literally can't get into a Good Boys And Girls Pool game when they want to actually play, and nobody ever has to deal with them ever again. ✨
Billy Mitchell back at it again
This video is clear, concise, and reserved. Very nicely put together!
Great work! I'm glad you guys are keeping a watch on things.
Hi AltF4, thank you for posting this video.I have one concern with what you have shown. Are you actually displaying the real account of these cheaters? If so I have to disagree with the way you went about dealing with this situation. I am not condoning the actions of these cheating players and I understand what they did was wrong. However displaying their accounts for everyone to see will only encourage a mob mentality to try to hunt down these players and harrass them. As a developer I believe it would have been enough to just ban the players without the need to display their accounts. Seeing how you have an intutive way to detect them, I believe there should be no need to expose these indvidiuals to the public eye. I have to reitreate that I am not condoning the actions these players, I and I believe a ban is a fair judgement on your part. Thank you for your insight on how you went about to find these players.
I don't know why, but its so satisfying seeing the process you go through for these
Edit: I love at 4:13 the first person with 11 disconnections is such a perfect example of someone who potentially just has really bad connection issues
Though this is assuming even is defined in a way that they couldn't exploit that (which I dont see how they could but this is your field, not mine)
This was such an interesting data analysis!! Thanks so much for this
I really don't understand why someone would want to boost their ranking by quitting out. Nobody cares if you get a high ranking, because if you can't perform against even a half-decent player in a tournament setting, no one will think you're any good. And it will be VERY apparent if you actually suck. You don't get the satisfaction of improving, and you put in a ridiculous amount of work just quitting out, to the point that I can't imagine it's any fun to log on. So what do it?!
If nobody cares why show the ranking?
People do care, hence they cheat. Even if it is just for themselves.
I assume the player that disconnects will always assume the loss, and also that average ping will be playable, but in the event that lag is an issue is there a way for both parties to agree on cancelling? Online tournaments and previous ranked sites would have lag tests and I am curious if you will be implementing something like this or if there is no need to. There also is no way to dispute a match to my knowledge so I think it would be a really beneficial feature to have despite being an extra step.
I haven’t played ranked but I’ve had plenty of band connections before and have been curious to know how this would work. Gentleman’s agreement to cancel would be a nice feature
It is indescribable how hilarious it is to me that the infamous cheater is just called billy
the good dog bit had me dying LMAO
I love your John Avon lands posters.
Mango played Silly Billy in his placements, funniest shit i saw.
"You're playing the best player in the world Silly, ACT LIKE IT!"
Would love to see that one actually. You gotta link?
@@taytertot9382 it's early into his lastest video that's like an hour and a half long
Amazing Breakdown! Looking forward to more
5:03 “yo what’s that one move from street fighter?”
Great videos
Those John Avon unhinged basic prints are sick.
Super cool insight! Thanks for the video
people like this are why I stopped playing ranked in Pokken, because there it would deny the win to the person you pulled the plug against. So you would get people who have "won" hundreds of matches but haven't gotten credit for any of them and just get stuck unable to increase their own rank legitimately.
It's always good to see the ones in charge do something about this though to give the losses to those that drop the game, and the wins to the ones they tried to cheat.
just realized those are the unhinged lands in the background. sick
wait you're considered a cheater if your power/internet goes out? what the fuck???
If it happens over 50% of the games and often when youre behind, yes
Love the art in the background. Thought it was an mtg video at first.
Sometimes I have a disconnect but I don’t know why. Does being on WiFi make a disconnect more possible? My laptop does not have a Ethernet plug in. But I don’t run anything else in the WiFi when I play and I usually google WiFi test at 185mbps with upload speed of 4mbps
This is incredibly interesting!
love the john avon lands in the background!
Honestly based but also if you disconnect just lose rank outright. Play with a good connection or play against lowbies, within a small margin lol.
Thanks for everything you guys do for us
I love that they had ways to tell who was disconnecting for gain lol. Just makes the cheaters look even more dumb for doing it when they could be easily caught lmao.
How do bans work? Does it ban their IP or could they create a new account and do the whole thing over again?
Proud billy bludgeoner here 🙋♂️
Wow. I actually remember playing that taunt=fnintendo guy
Meleeeeee 🎇🐙🔥
5:03 623p, man playing the wrong fighting game
Got that GIMP shop right there? Yeah buddy
Slippi has ranked? I can finally achieve my dream: being the worst player in the world!
interested in how you determine "ahead" and "behind". obv more than one definition
Unrelated to the video but I love that your John Avons are in WUBRG order.
Fucking Bob Ross talking over console commands
I've noticed similar behavior in Taiko no Tatsujin and Tekken 7 as well.
My opponents would instantly disconnect after they missed their first note,
or after they see my name, because they didn't want to get beaten by me again.
Hey, where did you get your SM64 paintings from? I'd like to get some of my own
I vote that you make the # of disconnects visible on a player's profile, along with those stats you're showing too. :)
Might prevent people from doing it if they know it's going to show up somewhere.
You sure taught them a lesson, Sneed.
I don't even know what the hell this was or how i got here but it was worth it to see the cute dog, adorable. Please pet him for me.
Great video as usual!
Nice winrate billy
where did you get those MTG land prints in your background?
There is a lot of incentive because it's always just been played amongst friends and in salty arguments it comes up like "I beat so and so and they beat you, you only can beat me because of the match up and other johns!" And now they can go online and cheat and get a good rank to "prove" to their friends that they are the best player even though they always lose and that their John's are justified. There might be more incentive to cheat online amongst low level smashers than any other esport because they actually have friends they physically play the game with.
Translation: You get one wall-pull freebie.
"A cheater is a cheater, you can't say it's only a half" -> Some yoshi main i think
love these vids. I dont even play smash
Love your EFF hoodie
i LOVE your land posters
You are awesome AltF4
how did it take me this long to recognize the art on the wall lol
What is it
@@inhalantsJohn Avon’s artwork aka a famous Magic: The Gathering illustrator
@@CraigPark specifically the Unhinged lands, used to be the go to versions and chasiest of chase foils
2:56 maybe it's a bad player with even worse internet! jokes aside, very interesting stuff. I never knew you could cheat this badly on Slippi
Where did you get those Super Mario 64 paintings?
Please forgive me being a total noob. Are you part of the Slippy team? Or is Slippy an open source platform that anybody can pull these numbers from?
not leaving a game while ahead when you can't actually get ahead isn't more suspicious than just being bad at the game
that bein said unfixed disconnects ruin the matchmaking experience
and yea sure these guys are obviously cheating . but i worry strategies like this only catch obvious cheaters and unlucky ppl
Give DJSS a white hat decal on their profile for being the good guy on this
question: how would the system handle a troll that purposfully disconects when hes ahead?
AltF4Warrior, Dan the man!
Leaving to avoid taking an L plagued Soulcalibur 6 at the beginning and there were players with 100% winrates at the top of the leaderboards. Nobody rematched and people who did frequently would disconnect on Round 3 if they were losing. It was awful.
when are you going to talk about B&T using AI trained on replay files? is the topic avoided because you guys are working with them behind the scenes?
Are the current leaderboards cheated? There's a lot of names I don't even recognize from people that don't even stream?
question: couldn't this incentivize a player to have some disconnects while they are ahead at a similar rate than they abandon losses to keep it "mostly even" and avoid being banned for gaming the system? is this something that the system is able to spot as anomalous?
that does make sense, and seems to solve the problem. can't believe i didn't think of that lmao
Love this content!
I would really like to go into the mind of people that disconnect mid game so that it doesnt count as a loss just to see what they are thinking.
pretty sure its as simple as: "haha! no loss for me! no win for you!"
@@mnemony3151 Thats the simple part. But the more indepth like. How does he think of himself. What does having a high rank on a comunity driven ranking gives you? Do they they have anything else that they can call their own? Stuff like that
This has been a problem for online games from the old days and how it's still around baffles me.
at least he made it obvious. now they can polish up these cracks. long live melee
If disconnecting is counted as a loss, I sure hope all the players have DDoS protection.
The first race are the Caltoreans. They are a race of hyper-intelligent humanoids who have advanced their technology and society nearly three thousand years ahead of anyone else in the Zova system. Their whole world is composed of a global tech park, dedicated to the sciences and arts. The Caltoreans may be arrogant, and maybe even antisocial at times, but they are always curious. The second race are the Dragorigans. Everything they lack in terms of technology and society they make up for in combative ability and especially size. The planet itself, Drangerek, can be compared to eight Jupiters arranged in a cube form in terms of size. These titans actually keep dragons as little pets. They are very primative, agressive, and unintelligent. However, they do have a strong advantage against others due to their advanced size, allowing them to crush any opponents they meet with little to no
effort. The third race are the Caltoreans. They are a race of hyper-intelligent humanoids who have advanced their technology and society nearly three thousand years ahead of anyone else in the Zova system. Their whole world is composed of a global tech park, dedicated to the sciences and arts. The Caltoreans may be arrogant, and maybe even antisocial at times, but they are always curious. The fourth race are the Dragorigans. Everything they lack in terms of technology and society they make up for in combative ability and especially size. The planet itself, Drangerek, can be compared to eight Jupiters arranged in a cube form in terms of size. These titans actually keep dragons as little pets. They are very primative, agressive, and unintelligent. However, they do have a strong advantage against others due to their advanced size, allowing them to crush any opponents they meet with little
to no effort.
I play ranked to discover how bad I am. Then immediately go back to unranked to grind my weaknesses. Go back to to ranked. Repeat.
billy the KING cheating out the system while beta coders have to clean up after him.
pretty based, billy is the guy.