SaltEMike Talks How EVE Cargo Contracts Make SO MUCH SENSE in Star Citizen...
Вставка
- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Check out my main channel - / @saltemike
Check out my clips channel -
/ @saltemikeclips
Check Out My Twitch Stream to see this live: / saltemike
Here's something wild about Eve. When players make a contract for someone to haul their goods, they have the hauler put down an agreed amount of money beforehand which will be paid out if they fail to deliver. This keeps the hauler honest so that they can't just steal the goods. But sometimes the person who made the contract will ambush the hauler so they can get the payment and keep the goods!
I'm sorry sir but you are not allowed to make sense and design gameplay before creating a new ship in SC.
@@Fragnatixwhich capital ship will make the docking ports work xD
@@travissmith1290vaguely sounds familiar, you can bring goods somewhere you think has demand and put them for sale at a price hoping you’ll get buyers. The risk is you have trouble selling at a profit
yup, "collateral" as it were. GREAT idea. Also the anonymity of the contract and time duration, giving the hauler plenty of time to attempt delivery without having to worry as much about the contract-maker ganking the hauler and collecting the collateral.
I played EVE for several years and spent lots of time in a null-sec industrial corp. Contracts are one thing - you're 100% correct on those. But aside from those, players can buy and sell commodities in an exchange in EVE, placing buy/sell orders for specified quantities of items at specific locations, at specified prices, with escrow. If Star Citizen had that it would facilitate lots of gameplay (presupposing the desirability and scarcity of the commodities in question). And on top of that it would make a perfect first interaction point between Quanta NPCs and players - MUCH simpler than using the mission system, I would imagine.
If the 'verse were a real thing, that marketplace would exist, but in the game it would be diagetic and done through a terminal or the mobiglas. I don't see such a system as being antisocial at all. And if I want to play the game 'antisocially' by your definition, why shouldn't I? Multiplayer gameplay isn't inherently better or worse than solo play. The game should have both.
That org storage workaround is hilarious and ridiculous. I see no reason why orgs shouldn't have storage (hangars) at stations and LZs just like players, even if only virtual and accessed via a terminal.
“Diagetic” Andy
Trade, Base/Station construction, Territorial control, & highly customizable ship equipment...these aren't Eve things...they're just good things for any game.
EVE was the first one to make it work though, so by any other standard we would normally call it an eve thing. Because of star citizens though, you can't credit another game with doing something better than CIG.
Nah, Eve are just good. It seems simple but it's complicated to create
If we need player contracts, then we need a more root cause for them to exist. Crafting and construction of bases, ships, ammunition, missiles, weaponry and components are the reasons we need those items. Without the crafting mechanic, player contracts won’t be nearly as useful today.
I don’t think it’ll be long before we see crafting mechanics introduced and simple contracts that follow those for the creation of simple things like guns or tools.
@@Deck1014 griefers is the only root cause needed. Create bounties to annoy their life
@@TheWorldsprayer Eve was the first game to have all of those things? Is this a fact?
I agree this is something Eve does well but also org rep and communication in game though text basically imagine if spectrum was available in game but you can mark individuals or other orgs as hostile which they then will show up on radar as such by default.
Another great thing about the delivery contract system in Eve is it allows offloading logistics within your own group, for example my corp decided to do some forward deployed combat but expecting everyone to move all of their stuff and haul ammo etc was never going to happen so the more industry focused guys or people with access to jump freighters were able to make a little money doing the stuff the guys only interested in combat didn't want to. They were also able to stock replacement ships in our FOB so that those same players could have back up ships and didn't need to do the work of shipping it themselves. You create co-dependence between combat/logistics players and everyone gets to play the game they actually want to play.
The Eve Online Economy is my Gold Standard for economic simulations.
For a game like SC, it should be a base case at least. Tony Z failed to see the scope of the game, CR has no clue how to make a good economy, and the current team now is basically doing nothing lol.
They will have 2 choice, go Tony Z way and make the game look alive but without any depth, arcadey and stuff
Or go hardcore, player driven economy, boom
@@Fragnatix there can be both. Things can be built such that it's arcadey for small scale/solo play and more hardcore for larger orgs that want to fight over territory or special resources
A lot of what you are talking about work in EVE because it is a fully player driven economy as you rightly point out. There is other parts of EVE which would translate even better to SC, a good example would be insurance, a fairly simple system which works perfectly and IMO would also work as well in SC.
EVE also allows contracts to be either public or private and when you haul cargo for/to someone, at the destination the package is dropped in the receiver's hangar automatically. And I could see that work once our hangars come into the game in SC too.
I do not agree that doing things on your time is "anti social or a-social" at all. Running a contract for someone is still an interaction between players. Someone needing guns could put up a contract for it or offer you a contract to deliver.
Eve: wants 20.000 of x cargo, puts the contract, random guy auto loads the ship, jumps and delivers
SC: puts a contract of 3000 SCU of X commodity, random guy waits 1 minute for the mission to populate, travels to the area with the commodity, waits for hangar to open, lands, walks out of a giant ship, walks into an elevator, walks again, gets into
another elevator, goes upstairs, interacts with a terminal, goes back through the stairs, first and second elevator, pulls his multi tool gun, loads a battery, opens his ship door, starts loading 100 boxes one by one, 2h and 20 batteries later is ready to leave, opens the hangar doors, slowly moves 2 meters out, detonates exiting the hangar, fails mission, gets negative rep and a bounty
Dummo man, it seems like 2 very different experiences and needs lol
EVE doesn't need Quantum, the shops in SC could serve as a market, players drop off items, set the price, the cheapest will sell, supply and demand will do the rest. Also In EVE, war consumes resources and assets, players craft, transporters move production,
But they don't fight for nothing, it's because they defend territories (and not to make battle videos with 100 players) also you can pay for the game subscription with the game currency, so we can convert the game money into dollars and calculate the real cost.
CIG PLEASE WATCH THISSSSSS
They can watch it but they aren’t capable of creating it
Even Elite has a decent cargo loop.
12 years in and yet here we are
It's far from decent as you can't store items on a station even for a fee to place there in the expectation of a price increase. You pick a hauling contract, you get npc pirates on you but you can't switch to your combat ship because it doesn't have enough cargo space - it's a really silly system.
@sidrat2009 No, you can't use a different combat ship if you get attacked, but, you can choose to have NPC fighters based on your ship for defense and set them free when danger arrises.
There are also levels to the AI conbat effectiveness which changes how much you pay them.
While its far from perfect. Elite at least has a player driven economy. And i always loved the fact that there was always some kind of community goal for players to take part in. Either by cargo hauling, or combat.
There are still so many features from ED that i really do hope make it to SC. Then SC would really be my perfect game.
More and more, it seems as if Star Citizen developers restrict players from making money, and I feel like that's an incredible conflict of interest given that they also sell ships. They are LITERALLY printing money, here, and the inconvenience of grinding missions at 20-50k a pop give or take is more soul-crushing than playing a free account in War Thunder. I mean.. I like PvE bounties, but having to grind through a hundred of them in an Aurora (Sorry, NORMAL folks can't do VHRTs in an Aurora--if YOU can, then good for you) just to afford a $2.5MM Gladius ONLY to look forward to a character reset at some point? I mean... what's the freaking point?! --and Gladius' aren't even endgame, really! Vanguard... Corsair... Connie... require even more (6-10 mil)! It's no wonder folks want to skip past all that BS
Eves Player Economy is fantastic.
I would also like community goals from E:D, where everyone would either have to assist with cargo, or combat missions in order to complete a goal.
For instance, in order to have a new space station built, players would have to clear the area of alien or pirate threats. The space truckers would then have to bring all the necessary materials. Then personnel transporters would bring the workers from different systems. These goals would last for weeks at a time.
There was also a loop called "Power Play" that had to do with governance in different systems.With this you were tasked with pushing your political leaders influence in their opponents systems. You could gain money, rep and unique parts for ships for these actions.
These are a couple of the many features that i would love to come to S.C. From E:D.
Please become the perfect game.
Copium dreams.
Eve's Contract system is amazing. I once took a contract to haul 440k m3 of Quafe - Quafe is a goddamn soda. I filled a freighter with soda, and delivered it to this random dude. I have no idea why he wanted it, why he wanted so much of it, or why the hell he couldn't just get it himself. But he paid me big money for it.
I hope we get player "orders" like that in SC, once Base Building/Crafting is in.
100%, this is the type of thing that could keep a game feeling alive and new day after day. Imagine if rather than doing the same old commodity runs in every game session or even doing game-generated cargo missions, you could be supplying actual players with stuff they'll actually use for something. A simulated economy is cool, but it can't replicate the randomness of actual players and the feeling of actual community and interaction that comes with that.
There was a game called "Gun of Icarus" back in like 2012/2014. It had the best ship crew mechanics I've ever played. I really want them to introduce some sort of mechanics like that game has to repair ships and damage.
good to see another player, swear there was only like 20 online at once?
@@borgKick when it first launched the game was poppin.
Nowadays though... Sad.
First we need crafting, then we need 3-4 star systems at least, then Org owned bases/stations/moons. Then we need player driven market and cargo/market contracts.
But before all of that, fix the flippin bugs!
I wanted to make a second comment just to say, we should have had the ability to hire pvp players to protect our cargo runs and cargo players to do vice versa a long time ago
Right now we have crappy medical beacons that people barely use
I mean the issue is nothing happens with any of the goods, the shops constantly restock, you can get them from looting soft death ships but the game doesn’t actually do anything with them.
There’s no effect on the game, they need to find a way to have it an impact on the game, like atleast have them make something
I don't think player-to-player contract cargo would work. There would be no standard, and you as the one requesting the contract had everything to lose in the interaction. You don't have anysay in punishing bad actor. We should still be able to submit request, but not directly.
The system should governs it. You as a player, want to move X amount of cargo from A to B. You submit the request, you also submit the reward (this will be based on many things). It will then be thrown into the system and will be delivered as a contract offers to high-rep cargo hauler (this might tie in to the reward, the higher the rep, the higher the reward). This should also work in Buying demands. Say you are a large orgs planning on doing some crafting, you need 1k SCU of Titanium, you then submit your request into your local TDD, and this will add to the demand pool of Titanium, it should also trigger a price hike in that specific TDD. After a certain threshold passed, it may be time or the amount of demand that the request goes unfulfilled, then the systems would trigger Cargo Contracts offers to the haulers.
I believe the upcoming cargo contracts should at least make commodity trading and the price dynamic makes a little bit of sense. There are outposts with overflowing stock of their mined commodities, TDD A18 is chockfull of RMC, and the price is still the same. LZ getting overflowed by scrap and waste. They can then make up some in-game lore about each of the commodity and their 'supposed' consumption for now.
SC should have a production and consumption number that is make sense, from logical standpoint, and gameplay standpoint. For example, LZ and outposts need HYD and QUAN to refuel ships and RMC to repairs things, MEDS for respawning people, FOOD for food and drinks, RMC and Consruction Material should be in high demand on ArcCorp, its surface being covered by cities. These will be either supplied locally or from numerous outpost in the system. And each of these outposts has their own rate of production - these also need to be balanced, so that there is room for player mined commodity to be sold.
After that then you can tweak and specialized for each specific place. MEDS being high consumption on LZ and LEO station (although I don't get why would MEDS be produced on outpost, doesn't make sense. After all of that has been established, after most contracts happen because there are supply and demands for it. Then we can add our own.
The supply and demand won't just be simulated numbers now, it has reasons behind it and we as the players can add to it and influence it. Overmining just one type of commodity would flood saturate the market, while individuals/orgs that request huge amount of commodities for their crafting (for example) or huge amount of weaponry (you can even simulate the weapon sales in to higher consumption of commodities)
It will not only be a player driven economies, because the world itself should move whether we are there or not. Now, a direct player-to-player contracts should also be inconsideration, but later, when we have the standards first. After it is established of how much you would get doing it from the system, now you can think about player-to-player. If not, then that is not economy, its simply roleplaying.
Agree, player-to-player should be channeled trough NPC contract managers and security, that way if the other player exploits the contract the game accounts that behavior. (except for ORGS, that should be adressed with a permisson manager and access control)
About the other considerations I think those are part of the plan. CIG always said everything we buy ingame has manufacturing costs in materials and resources so that means if these resources don't reach the factory the production stops and the prices rise. Simply, factories aren't yet in the game.
I love eve onlines power cpu and turret system i can put a mining lazer on a titan it may be dumb af but i can mine anywhere i LOVE that choice but its limited by power and cpu.
I also love that you can replace the mining lazer of a mining ship and put weapons on it
Lastly if you unmount all your weapons you move faster or turn them entirely off to allow more power to your systems (to counter electric measures)
When it comes to EvE you have to consider that most players will have two characters. While few people would want to haul goods from one place to another, those that do can make great money in game by doing it.
There are things that are easier with n+1; if it can be done with an second, third or tenth character it will be done. Lighting a cyno in a random system that you just want to go to and come back again is easier with a cyno alt. No interaction required, get there get it done come back again. Would you want to see that in Star Citizen? Can you run two instances of different accounts at the same time?
If there are too many things in Star Citizen that must be done in a group it can severely limit the enjoyment factor of those who aren't social, or can't commit to playing in a regular time zone for a regular amount of time. Those working shifts may find it difficult to team up with the same people and surely working with the same group means it's smoother as people find their groove & their niche.
The other factor is that there are currently no character skills in Star Citizen so everything is based on the players ability, determination and willingness to learn, practice and excel. I don't know if player skills are going to be in the game at some point in order to reward player commitment, perhaps there should be otherwise it's buffs via armour, helmets and gadgets which can be used by anyone if they have the in game wealth, or real money for the perma-item.
I don't want skills and abilities. I want it where the more you shoot the better you get, for example lower recoil and faster reload. More stamina and speed etc. Also make it where you lose like 20% of this "exp" when you die.
Eve isn't a single sever, what they do is impressive but all servers connect to main database and so on, there are multiple ssd servers and each jump point acts as a gateway to transfer you between servers, they even have a full video on how their servers work etc, however one main issue is for them they are a single tick rate and they use time dilation which can at worst make 1 second in game take 10 real life seconds, they also offload a bunch of things client side, so its a bit more complex but regardless what they do with their servers is impressive, just less so because its a text based game with a graphics overlay.
30k people at 1 tick rate normally and up to 5k in the same system at .1 tick rate vs...100 people at 5 tick rate....
How much would you bet the data being handled by SC breaches 5x the data being handled by Eve?
It could use alot neat features like eve, but you don't want it to be eve, EvE iis way to unforgiving. I have lost thousands in battles of real $$$ of many years playing eve.
SC is almost there, it needs the production piece of the puzzle to have a complete circle and the items which are sold in shops (ships, components, tools, armors) could be virtually produced with the minerals and resources. If only every ship we destroy including NPCs, had to be manufactured and sold to be replaced, then the economy would begin to work. Because each ship would require materials to be manufactured the quantity of minerals availiable to sold would increase or decrease prices and also ships avaliability in shops. I think that's the intention of SC developers.
And Crafting can come along with this.
You know how to kick-start the economy in SC. Make missiles consumables, not just free reloaded for a tiny cost. Make fuel types and create SF delivery missions. Stuff like this.
SALTY MIKE FINALLY LOOKS AT EVE and how amazing the companies ideas are!!!
EVE online has the best player "tools" for their players.
DEEP DIVE on how much we could take inspiration from eve and bring it to SC
EvE Online is 90% non-combat but high social. everything is based around orgs/corps/empires and socializing and such. an AMAZING book that shows how SOCIAl eve is are the books: Empires of EvE 1 (goes from beta to like 2010) and Empires of EvE 2 (~the rise of goons until like 2020) also EvE is awesome when you look into their propaganda videos for wars between player orgs
or simply make it like the Original SWG. the bazaars in the BMM and Kraken Privateer are designed to solve some of these challenges. Go find "insert whatever valuable thing here" and go to your store (which is protected by things you've built) and (manned by AI you hire) to sell the stuff you collect, mine, salvage, find, steal etc. people come by, buy the things, you restock etc. Player driven economies are a good thing. player made contracts good thing. most importantly SC NEEDS player to player co-dependencies. I need fuel and I have an option to get it from a player, same with repair, resupply. if there is cohesion between systems that create co-dependency we all win. supply chain logistics need to work.
I find it super bizarre that after 10 years of "development" ppl still don't understand that SC does not need to invent the wheel. They do have to implement like 60% of what EVE ONLINE did and does to this day in a way that is technically / gameplay / interface wise feasible and applicable to SC. Because that particular wheel has not only been invented ages ago, but also perfected. They do not need to invent it.
Contracts is just one of those things - you go, you look how EVE does it and figure out if and how you can apply it.
If they do crafting - they need to do player economy to a certain extend. Player economy requires contracts.
Crafting is by definition an anti-social experience. Sourcing the required materials, moving them and bringing the end product (or intermediate components ) to market has huge potential of being a very social experience.
How do devs balance the problem of not having enough player crafted goods on the market if people are not actively doing that - simple, you seed lower quality NPC produced goods on markets and then the player produced goods are of higher quiality/stats or are unique. In EVE this is T1 vs T2 items, and the ones in between are loot drops.
Quanta can also come into this - the NPCs moving, buying and selling the entry level goods - lower quality (basic) items, commodities and construction components.
Items of value are player crafted or very rare drops.
But then even the most basic commodity (corundum/tritanium) has value.
If SC managed to have an economy 1/4 the depth of EVE, I would be thrilled. That's one of the aspects that always keeps me coming back to EVE, just how intertwined the whole world is, be it resources, players, and roles. You said it perfectly "in EVE that material turns into something, in SC it turns into nothing"
In eve I remember having corporate storage with 9 hangars each of which can have totally different access rights. Each hangar or capital ship hangar has these and so you can asign one to all org mates, one to leadership, one to just CEO, and split the rest among types of cargo storage. More would be better but using 9 (or was it 10) made it very doable to do multiplayer self serve.
If SC copied EvE market and production and copied Elite discovery and engineering (yes engineering is needed in SC, maybe not as complex as Elite) then SC would be the GOAT... but right now it's barely more then a buggy tech demo - with pretty ships and locations.
I've been saying this from day 1, SC would benefit tremendously from incorporating economy, hauling and crafting systems from EVE / EVE Echoes. The devs should at least jump into the more user friendly mobile game (EVE Echoes) to get some inspiration there. They did a lot of streamlining in Echoes that makes it less an excel simulator and more an actual MMO.
I barely played EvE, but I did play SWG, and it made me a big fan of player driven economies. For SC, I'd like to see a good mix of Quantum and player driven. Quantum can be used to balance the system when players find exploits, and keep everything in check, but also to keep the player lively and immersive. So they both will affect each other, but for the players, it makes more sense to buy and sell to other players, and NPC markets are the backup option.
If it's that easy to just steal shit you've been contacted to deliver, you should immediately lose your delivery license and be incapable of doing more of those missions. Delivery drivers that steal shit from their truck are, unsurprisingly, fired forever.
PS: Defining what is and is not antisocial is a helluva lot easier if your mental construct is "is this PROSOCIQL," especially given antisocial as a word exists specifically to describe behavior that is NOT PROSOCIAL, so by definition you should be assessing the prosociality of a behavior, not the antisociality of it.
Subsequently, yes, all systems that facilitate and automate trade and other commercial interactions between players (and non-players, as well) are prosocial by definition: markets and commercial relationships are among the pinnacle of prosocial, communitarian behaviours.
To clarify, humans engaging in mutually beneficial relationships dependent on material exchange is quite literally the basic prosocial behaviour responsible for inception human culture and civilization as we know it today: economic relationships are, at their base, fundamentally prosocial.
(Now, there's an argument to be made for capitalism being antisocial, but thats a function of morality and justifiability directly contradicting classist behaviour that arises from the alienation of labour: economic relationships at their base are fundamentally prosocial, before they are alienated by capital equity.)
My dream scenario for SC has always been that it ends up combining the visually immersive, extremely interactable and physicalised world that CIG have been creating with the player-driven economy, world and power structure of Eve. Because the thing is despite its' "spreadsheet simulator" gameplay Eve is, to me at least, possibly the most fascinating game ever made; the idea of creating a massive game world and then just saying to players "This world is now yours. You can do whatever you like and shape this world however you like, and the only thing that's going to stop you is rival players or your own lack of ambition" that's just so exciting to me and exactly what I want from SC, and I know that's not really what CIG are going for, but the closer we get to that the happier I'll be.
TDDs are auction houses, they just don't function as such yet. Data running to gather prices, communication through comm arrays, they might be down sometimes due to pirates and other reasons. MMO auction houses of days past are not needed. They only existed due to technical limitations. I'd very much prefer UO vendor like NPC with base building, sell the marker to your "store" to terminals. Imagine how cool it is to get somewhere for the first time and see these routes for sale on the terminal, buy it, go there and buy stuff you might not be able to buy elsewhere. I know you can, Mike, you have played UO as well ;)
From Eve Online Both Contracts and Market would be amazing to have in SC. The market in Eve also has NPC sold things which SC could use to counter balance weird player behavior
Man, I miss SWG. And for those that don't like player run vendors being "a-social". In SWG those player vendors led to a ton of character-to-character interaction.
Totally agree. I joined Star Citizen in 2014 in hopes it will eventually have Player Contracts and Buy/Sell orders for market. But I understand that we need other features and star systems first.
Great video!
The weakest aspect of Star Citizen right now is any type of player driven content. There is no drive to have any type of industrial content right now besides buy low / sell high. It's just boring and half of the industrial ships in SC are kind of just pointless unless your time spent is exponential to the amount of money created. If we had the ability to craft weapons, ammunition, medical equipment, and other consumables then there could be supply and demand in certain star systems where those types of commodities are unavailable or scarce. We don't have other systems either so... building an interstellar economy is kind of mute right now.
Eve builds a lot of the player driven economy from the "arms race" between coalitions. The logistics chains that EVE corps manage for their coalitions is ridiculous; I want this in SC.
The economy in EVE has taken 20 years to develop to a point where every single thing has some worth to any player for many purposes, crafting mainly ships. That would be cool to see in SC. Also Org systems are way developed for this system to exit, SC needs ORg/clan systems for that to work too.
I'm confused. Why do I need to be on someone else's time more than putting a box full of the goods at a specified location to be "looted" by another player? I think doing it avatar to avatar is more appropriate for the "dream" of the vision. I think the idea of Org based locations like hangers would be useful. (I think they would help follow the concept of the game to begin with.)
So to deal: two people or parties meet. One has crates of items, the other has cred to pay for it. You transfer funds; I unload the crates. Then we can go our separate ways. You can still transport stuff the usual way, through a delivery contract, for most goods, even to other players.
Still, I kind of hope moving stolen and/or "found" goods can be done face to face, player to player, like all good black market deals should be made. And a bit of risk gets added as well.
Additionally, the value of a cargo should never be known by the hauler. Even if the boxes are labeled, you need to take the risk that they are mislabeled.
About the antisocial thing, I think it should be only automated by having certain something. Like having a kraken privateer to sell your weapons.
Your buyers can go to your market and buy them without you being there. But if you don't have that, you should do the trades manually. Having "public" automated markets sounds bad.
Was just saying this to a buddy of mine. We played EVE since beta for over 15 years. He needed something at a location I was not near, and an eve-style contract would have allowed for it. It is a fantastic logistical and economic tool. SC needs something like this.
The eve economy is unmatched, studied by real world economists around the world. Star Citizen needs an economy on par, or deeper, than Eve. If not, it will never be as immersive as it can be.
Eve online with a not *entirely player driven economy* is my dream for Star Citizen. We need player contracts moving forward with crafting for sure, whether it's hauling, or collecting resources. Then we need territory control for massive orgs to give that higher level gameplay and pvp aspect. Those two things would bring this pointless sandbox to a real MMO.
I don't know if I agree with automated trading systems, to give other players the opportunity to intercept trades. But I don't think its realistic to expect people to play on some other persons time.
I would in general have much more limits on replacing ships and loadouts. But the whole preselling ships part pretty much killed those balancing options. In Eve you fly what you want to risk. in Star Citizen whatever is the biggest and coolest ship you have that can do the task. Loosing it doesn't cost much, just a bit of time.
I completely agree with you. Want the samy. It will not happen. The thing you are describing requires fully player driven economy. The contrast you mentioned are there, because players have need to haul large amounts of cargo. Cargo that they produced, mined and so on. On the other end, players will sell all of that in other places. If we are not able to setup a sell order in any place and saying how much we want for the assets we are selling then there will never be need for the orders you described. We need full market economy, where you can buy and sell freely. And in eve there are also BUY orders, where player says "I want to buy 100 pieces of XYZ for NNNN each". And there are players that will buy it cheaper, transport it and then sell it to that player.
OMG mike, if you like cargo trading stuff in a video game, then EVEonline is the best game ever for you! I personally hate EVEonline for other reasons, but the cargo and trading stuff in EVE is the best!
Many an hour spent hauling in EVE. Great vid that I hope the Economy Devs take note of. Like housing and resource gathering/crafting in Star Wars Galaxies the market system in EVE has a lot to offer.
It seems to me the economy team is already starting out wrong. They're still arbitrarily pricing things without any basis. What determines the value of UEC? They need to figure out what base materials are required for crafting and determine a value for UEC before re-pricing stuff in the game.
this is true - the packages you haul for other players in eve are in wrapped containers. You can steal the cargo if you want, but you likely paid insurance for the load, which the shipper has to cover. Marquee Dragon is a long time RMTer and this is something generally frowned on in the EVE community.
its not only cargo system... you should check crafting system, scanning system, exploration system.... and the rest of the comments below.
Do this analysis for what Star Citizen can learn from Helldivers (narrative. and Manor Lords? (RTS, farming) or even Starfield..
So far the vision for SC is very similar to EVE’s economy and player-trade system.
There’s a lot in EVE I would love to see some of in SC, and that’s just because it obviously works very well and stands the test of time.
Are people just now realizing this? EVE mastered what it meant to be a person in space, only it was a ship-down view. Much of what star citizen will be will simply be EVE in first person mode (something eve tried to do a number of times before)
I agree that Star Citizen doesn’t feel like an MMO because of server player capacity.
But what MMO in the last 10 years has felt like that? WoW? Older than 10 years.
Black Desert Online? Older than 10 years.
RuneScape, Older than 10 years.
What MMO has those large numbers that’s been made within the last ten years? I can’t think of one that’s decent? What happened to the MMO industry? Name one that’s high capacity and decent?
SC needs an economy full stop. when there is money to be made trading and hauling you are more players flying around which makes targets for people to pirate with makes jobs for People to be hired as guards. it helps naturally build story's between players and encourages player interaction even if it is just shooting each other. In EvE Sovereignty over resource rich systems is what drives wars. We dont have that in SC so money needs to be the driving force for now at lest
Player to player contracts beyond bounties are too much of a stretch imo.
What they should do is implement real-time contract assignment through the insurance system.
Someones ship blowing up should be a big deal, when someone files a claim it should kickstart a symphony of production behind the scenes with components, weapon systems and even refined materials being delivered.
The popularity of particular stations and the number of claims made per hour within them could determine the volume of the inventory they like to have on hand.
Stations with more claims being made could begin to run out of supplies increasing claim times until the deficit has been remedied, providing incentives for people to assume roles on large industrial ships to accelerate and reduce the cost of ship reclamation.
For this to function properly several things need to happen.
1. Claim timers need to double or even quadruple.
2. The cost of the claims need to be a meaningful amount of money being directly correlated to the ships in game value.
Tell me why you disagree.
Eve has a well balanced and much more predictable money drain: ships getting blown up, that need to be replaced. That part of the economy is lacking in Star Citizen, especially since ships can be respawned without additional cost.
100% agree on you with this one mike
oh and to the guys who don't want an auction house, that is just idiotic,
if you refuse an auction house that doesn't mean that people will want to interact with you and buy stuff with jank trade ships, they will just buy vendor gear instead and still not be any more soical
look at wow as an example, these locations become trade hubs, but they dont remove the ability for people to do in person trades,
back in vanilla for example people would use trade chat to sell items to avoid ah charges etc...
both can exist, some players will prefer one over the other, some will have very valid reasons for refusing to board a strangers ship to buy stuff
If CIG were to implement a similar cargo contract system; I wish you can see playernames and the amount of SCU they have delivered, from there you can make decisions to set up personal contracts for them or something. Also this is still highly social, just without the necessity of direct interaction, perfect for people on the spectrum and wannabe cargo hauler like me
EVE worked because they were smart enough to dev out the crafting first, then build the economy around it adjusting as needed according to how the players responded.
Players didn't need fake incentives to transport mats across distanced because they were transporting the real thing from day 1. The issue with SC is they're putting the cart before the horse wanting to make a trade system based around a crafting and a multi solar system map that doesn't exist.
I used to play EvE and hauled for specific corps that do nothing but hauling red frog freight and PushX. Hauling is an easy way to make money if you have the bank to pay the collateral of hauling.
Reading way to far into it Mike. We just need crafting and base building and stuff like that. Then there will be demand and the balancing can take place after. RMC for example. Once we need that for base building there will always be demand for it.
we still need SC to get fuel prices nailed down or elevated from almost 0. we also need to start paying insurance to get those credit sinks in the game so we can start seeing real operation costs, then they can adjust cargo profit margins, and the need for players to move cargo for the economy. also need station and planet city missions we can do without leaving for real zero to hero play. EDIT: we need to be able to sell our ingame purchased ships cuz if you have 30 ships and have to pay 30k for a random number for insurance you may want to trim overhead costs and reduce fleet.
Please Mike, have a look at starsector if you haven’t already. I know it’s single player but it is incredible at simulating a universe. Eve gets closer to what I understand Star citizen wants to do but I still love starsector.
I personally think that the contract system should only really exist for lawful transactions. So for instance, if those railguns are illegal in the system that you're selling them in, you should have to physically go there and conduct the transaction by hand. Otherwise it should be through the tdd to be honest.
Not that you couldn't still sit down and make a physical deal for a legal, good or service. Just that you don't have to. And I like the idea of being able to dodge uee taxes if you conduct transactions by hand.
Pretty much just copy EvE economy 1to1. Also copy the security system in star systems too. Literally no need to think about the vision since EvE already figured it out. Star Citizen is just the FPS version of EvE.
I've been preaching this to you man for years on your vids lol. Cargo missions are what needs to happen and the way they have a "if you open it/steal it/get blown up" you get billed whatever the value set by the contract creator of the contract.
I couldn't agree more with your initial premise. I definitely would like more EVE influence in this game with regard to the economy.
Star Citizen should mimic at some point the x4 foundations system : for example if a station produce silicon wafers, you have to give them silicon ( in competition with other factions ) to get credits and for the station to keep operating
Mike... little note here from a player of eve for 15 years at this point... eves economy wasn't always player driven economy, a LOT of the economy was NPC buy and sell orders and players couldn't partake in buying and selling to players until things were slowly opened up over time. it was a gradual process to the point now where its mostly player to player buys and sells. there is still npc buy and sell orders and typically they are items that arent really worth using in any other way than getting money from it via NPCs (they dont contribute to any industry process or break down to any set of items that could be used in any other way)
also btw player to player contracts are used to scam people. in fact recentlyish a group of players were contract scammed extremely valuable Alliance Tournament prizes without realising it until it was too late. as per CCPs (the maker of eve online) that scam wasnt overturned as their policy is only to reverse things that are down to server service errors and blackouts on their end, not the players.
also lol markeedragon... fml.
As the trader you could choose the option to package goods. This stops the hauler seeing what it is. You didn’t have to do this though. I think the trader could insure the items and if the hauler list it i’m not sure they list anything but tine and the job buy in. Been a while though so correct me if i’m wrong.
I've been asking for this for a long time haha. Just nick a couple of things from Eve that can work in SC to give the game a little more depth.
So you watch Markee Dragon.. eve has serveral good mechanics what could be taken .the hacking minigame is realy cool
Sell to a banu merchantman or kraken privateer as middleman. Keep it manual with option for large transactions between players handled in a more automated way by those ships.
You keep mentioning crafting but what about NPC factories, where are all the factories in SC?
14:04 Make certain weapons and goods illegal to sell on the market to encourage black market social experiences while still allowing players the option of using a trading system that’s easier to use on their time.
It's very obvious that alot of the ideas that are implemented in SC or what they strive for is probably more accurate is very much inspired by eve online
I’m really curious, which UA-camr do you watch doing Eve hauling?
Eves market isn’t automatic. You can buy anything from anywhere. But you have to go to the location to pick it up
From the first moment I learned about Quanta I thought CIG is giving the best possible game loop to AI.
I've been an Eve trading evangelist for years. Glad Mike is advocating for something like it
WOW's "Auction House" was an amazing player driven economy.
I've played EVE for 9 years and and off and I've never touched a spreadsheet.
But then, I don't do serious crafting.
Org banks, need to happen for ships, Credits and items. Allow members to store things in there for other members to use or take based on their rank.
CIG are musk-class at marketing their jpegs, but terrible at marketing stuff in their game.
Player contracts means nothing if there is not an in depth crafting system that utilizes all of the materials in game to drives the player economy.
I only played EVE a little bit but it did not realise the cargo missions were listed by players it didnt seem that way are you sure _all_ of them are?
i will return to the game once they flesh out cargo stuff and add armor to ships. been waiting a long time.
Gun selling must be much better now you can fill large SCU boxes and sell the boxes to your customers :)
I hope when base building and crafting comes in more of an economy comes in with cargo.
The need to physicalize everything is why we cant have a interesting economy like EvE
CIG should just straight up copy what Eve does wrt logistics.
cargo contract in eve has always been shit,.. buyt sell/order trading is where its at
SC doesn’t need ANYTHING from Eve. You out of content?
MarkeeDragon!!! I've been watching that dude for a long time.
Cargo and market is literally the only thing I'm interested in with SC
I'm just happy that my MMO of choice gets praised for what it is.
You can’t even put a QD in a ship inventory anymore lmao
Eve online economy for SC would be great.