I disagree that your content has been negative lately. I appreciate that you guys take a balanced approach and call things out when they are not working as well as they could. It really puts me off when content creators are overly positive out of a fear of losing views. When you have a large platform discussing the good as well as the bad is the best way to serve the community and influence the game, and I respect that.
@@VinceVenturella I think this is a main reason why people stick around. You speak your mind, call out both positives and negatives. Out of all the Warhammer and adjacent content creators I've found, those that I stick with all have this trait in common.
'I'm gonna spend way too much time making a skaven krondspine ...' I feel this part so hard. I spent so much time making KO themed spells-in-the-bottle and now ...
Same here dude. Most armies gained something from 3rd to 4th edition. Ogres nearly lost every cool thing they had. They were a fun interactive army, you didnt steamroll your enemy, they had fun as well. Would be fun if we got our shooting back. Only kinda maybe viable option are the Leadbelchers. But you wont take them for shooting, only for the cheap bodies.
The ogor cannon list in 3rd was real, and was real fun. I was playing 2 cannons, 2 units of 8 leadbelchers, and filled the rest with gluttons and it was solid. It wasn't gonna go 5-0, and I never took it to a gt, but I went 2-1 at a one day tournament
White Dwark is a wonderful initial delivery mechanism for special armies or regiments...as long as it goes online and on the app within a month of publishing.
Narrative events, been to two this year. The first one is one that Ben and Jimbo from the studio have been atvfor the last 4years. So it's something that the studio does participate in
I think many of these issues can be solved by going back to different utility across weapon options. Simpler i not always better. Calvary charging a unit with swords should be more effective than say charging a unit with spears.
MTG reference: as an old, semi-retired, Unlimited, Revised, Legends, Dark player to casual Return to Ravnica-ish, that Incarnate reminds me so much of Planeswalkers and how my group just didn't play them for a few years ... hopefully they'll find a more widespread place in AoS eventually.
I came for the warhammer discussion. I stayed for the "Texas Hammer" shout out. Jim Addler has been flooding the Texas market with "Better call Saul"esque ads for decades.
Have been saying that as a nighthuant player (also I play FEC so at the top and bottom of stats). Bladegiest revenants did not change from 3rd to 4th, same to hit, to wound, rend, damage, save and movement. Even the +1 attack on the charge is the same as 3rd. The only thing that changed? they went from a range of 1 inch to a range of 3 inches. Never took units of 20 in prior editions, now 2 units of 20 is a staple in all lists
What is interesting is that Fyreslayer units can be Hammer, anvil or porcupine depending on buffs. 40 wounds on a 4+ ignoring 3 rend with a 5++ is a hell of an anvil, 60 attacks with crit mortals is a good hammer. and ASF and crit mortals makes a good porcupine..... we just don't have the speed
There was a brief period in the days we don't talk about when Empire Cannons could easily get to 2 attacks, 2+/2+/-2/D6 at i believe 36" which was solid for what they did. Range was much longer than the other options and the damage was good. Rend 2 in 2st ed was also really high. We just have no real stats or anything from back then
Its true, but the delivery mechanism is as always the challenge. It would require them to get the charge and not be charged, in my experience, that is difficult with a 4" move and being hunted by things moving 14-20"
On the topic of artillery the beast skewer killbow has done a lot of work for me. Unfortunately I often have to deploy it near the line, and its a bit of a silver bullet, but threatening 12 rend 3 damage isn't a joke.
250-300 points on prospectors is an extremely useful recommendation for list building. I love guides that just kind of tell you ok this many points for hammers this much for support this much for anvils. Extremely helpful.
Thank you for calling that out, that means UA-cam did the bad thing and inserted a bunch of ads again, I have removed them. You shoudl be able to refresh and watch normally now. :)
My local Horus Heresy community has really leaned into co-op narrative events and it's been an absolute blast. Big apocalypse games, 2v2, 4v4. Bigger longer games with less time pressure, more collaboration and generally people having more bandwidth to help each other out with rules and ideas for what to do, "Of course my Sisters of Silence HQ is going to duel the Keeper of Secrets, that's awesome!"
I'm 100% on this train. I can sneak out long enough for a game here and there, but I really have zero interest in a 9-12 hour slog, and I would much rather enjoy the game as a beer and pretzels night than get super spiky about it.
I feel like cavalry would make more sense if they had lower movement, say capped at 8 inches, but had as standard a 3D6 charge. Alternatively, maybe capped at 10 inch move and a once per battle 3D6 charge. Mounted archers could have run and shoot as a differentiation.
Yeah my biggest issue in Warhammer in general l, both AOS and 40K right now, is how written off whole classes of units are. I have so many great models that I just can't justify putting on a table even though I want to. Plagues claw catapult, soul grinder, exalted flamers, and in 40K my aircraft (Which I don't even want to be aircraft I just want them to have hover mode and be reasonably pointed so I can use the model). Just so many models I love and own that I can't justify putting on the table because they aren't even 80% as effective as what I should be taking. I also think that anvils can be perfectly fine Even if they don't do any damage, But the pointing and the army design needs to facilitate that. They need to be pointed significantly differently than the anvils that do also do enough damage to win for example. And the army needs the synergy with its other units to take advantage of the time the anvil buys to still be able to come out ahead even if they're anvil is going to lose. For cities I'm thinking the ranged needs to be able to shoot the enemy dead in time. There's nothing inherently wrong with a design of anvils that will eventually lose as long as they last a while and are pointed such that you can maybe get two of them plus a unit like fusiliers instead of only avoiding two units of anvils that actually do enough damage to win the engagement. I'm really glad you guys had that conversation at the end about units that aren't usable like all monsters. It really kind of drives me nuts in your podcast and others I listen to when people spend so much time talking about one or two units that are pretty good but not quite there and just literally ignore half the units in the book which actually need the help. I really didn't like it when you guys in your index reviews just completely skipped over talking about so many units that I love and want to use. Even if they're bad I want to hear them discussed that's the fun part of listening to this kind of stuff and you guys are really good at it, and the only thing I really don't like about your podcast is when you don't give me more podcast on these units to listen to!
5 super buffed brutes lifted 20 Mortek Gaurd who had the Katakros buff + 5+ ward. Both of us rolled average+. I have yet to see a problem with the brute war scroll itself. Other IJ problems are there but after 11 games vs brute heavy lists I still think they’re no joke.
They are definitely not one of the best units... I think competitively Vince is pretty off sometimes. People in general overhype and overestimate Kruleboyz
Thinking about the toughness problem what if they gave all non-hero monsters -1 to wound and ignore 1 rend? Seems like that would go a long way to make them tougher. It at least makes it difficult to calculate how easy it is to lift.
If GW is happy enough with the incarnate of Ghur in 4th I'm sure we'll get the incarnate of Aqshy in this edition. Probably around the time the tease narrative book comes out next year. Much like when and how the Ghur incarnate was released.
Vampire lord should in best unit. It’s not in a good category (foot hero assassin) but it’s a fantastic disruption piece and punches well above his weight class and is tanky enough to bring up another disruption piece the next turn while doing this in the opponents side of the field. And the more you have of them, the more effective they become.
Been trying to settle on a hammer for SCE (irony) with the new book. Seems you either pick one of the pallidors, stormdrakes, or dracothian guard? None of them are quite Varanguard level but what is.
late to the party, but I think a good solution would be to make monsters the anti-cav toolbox... and then kind of end up with a rock/paper/scissors system Perhaps too late now with the monsters that have already been printed, but could be a good way to bring them back to the table
The Porcupine units, like you said Zombies were that in 3rd, but so sad Zombies are just completly useless now, when other armies have access to such units ^^ At start Zombies were TOO powerful for sure in 3.0, but then got balanced better, and now in 4.0 they got put on the shelf for almost everyone, hope they atleast become playable when a new book comes, but not autoinclude in every list either.
my first thought on a small fix for monsters without adding toughness, what if certain monsters had a "trans human " rule from 40k where they can only be wounded on a 4+? or some type of terror rule to give them better utility?
Krondspine in 3rd edition was very unfun due to the terrible core rules for incarnates and its own overstacked warscroll. It is much better in 4th edition. Among all the manifestations, it simply plays like a slightly different one of those. Which is fine. They could actually release another incarnate at this point. I like the suggestion of giving all artillery units long range. Mostly 48", never less than 36". That would give them their own niche next to regular shooting units, that all went down to 12" to 24" range.
For Nighthaunt a feelbabd but effective nerf would be to create an exception for keyword based rend so they can be rented by those +1 rend on charge, infantry
Going by this breakdown of unit types, it becomes very clear very quickly how garbage FEC is this edition, which is such a disappointment. They have NO hammers, NO anvils, NO porcupines, NO cheap prospectors (the gorewarden is their only teleporting unit--don't even start with "b-but muh zombie dragon" cuz _nobody_ runs that--and he takes up an entire regiment slot), and their utility pieces can't even really be called that, because they don't "add" any additional utility--they provide abilities without which the faction is _incapable of functioning in the first place_ on a competitive level. Really sucks cuz the lore is fantastic and the new models are amazing, but I'm gonna have to give FEC a hard pass this edition, cuz the only list capable of topping is Ush, a pope or GKoTG, and like, 18 morbheg knights. Miss me with that snoozefest list.
Legends stuff allowed!? Multiple formats for Warhammer? Heaven forbid! Lol in all seriousness coming over from MTG and other games with eternal formats and singleton formats and the like i would love to see a non-rotating rules set for a legends format where a casual player who only gets in a couple games a year doesn't need to "purchase" and learn a new ruleset to play their next 9 games of warhammer. I played a bit in 8th, got in at the tail end of 9th and with 10th im looking at flushing out a second army for my partner to play and the idea of having to learn 11th rules to play with other people by the time im done painting their army is... Wooof just gimmie an eternal format
Isn't the problem with narrative events that it doesn't sell models, so no incentive for GW to support? Hard to know without seeing the sales figures but I imagine it's more around making kids buy "the best" minis rather than actual tournament meta chasers.
depends, it does get kitchen table folks to go to events, which can be hard enough as is. And if they like it they might become more involved in the local community and actually pick up that second army they have been concidering for a while or whatever their N+1 is...
![40K BEGINNERS - THE ASTARTES CHAPTERS [Part 2] | Warhammer 40,000 Lore/History](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cXeLiWE0vh8/mqdefault.jpg)
I disagree that your content has been negative lately. I appreciate that you guys take a balanced approach and call things out when they are not working as well as they could. It really puts me off when content creators are overly positive out of a fear of losing views. When you have a large platform discussing the good as well as the bad is the best way to serve the community and influence the game, and I respect that.
Thank you, I appreciate that. I try to always give the full story, I just don't want to get caught up in my own bias at the same time. :)
@@VinceVenturella I think this is a main reason why people stick around. You speak your mind, call out both positives and negatives. Out of all the Warhammer and adjacent content creators I've found, those that I stick with all have this trait in common.
'I'm gonna spend way too much time making a skaven krondspine ...' I feel this part so hard. I spent so much time making KO themed spells-in-the-bottle and now ...
37:22 Tom's "crap, busted" face when he multitasking and only partially paying attention
As an Ogor Mawtribes enjoyer it strikes me how this conversation feels like it is from a completely different game than the Ogor Mawtribes index
Unfortunately, you're not wrong.
Same here dude. Most armies gained something from 3rd to 4th edition. Ogres nearly lost every cool thing they had. They were a fun interactive army, you didnt steamroll your enemy, they had fun as well.
Would be fun if we got our shooting back. Only kinda maybe viable option are the Leadbelchers. But you wont take them for shooting, only for the cheap bodies.
21:07 love painting yellow. Interested in the process you used for the Goblin. Hope to see content on it soon, and from the sound of it we will.
Came for the AoS, stayed for the costumes
The ogor cannon list in 3rd was real, and was real fun. I was playing 2 cannons, 2 units of 8 leadbelchers, and filled the rest with gluttons and it was solid. It wasn't gonna go 5-0, and I never took it to a gt, but I went 2-1 at a one day tournament
That was a very fun time!
White Dwark is a wonderful initial delivery mechanism for special armies or regiments...as long as it goes online and on the app within a month of publishing.
I think you're right.
Narrative events, been to two this year. The first one is one that Ben and Jimbo from the studio have been atvfor the last 4years. So it's something that the studio does participate in
I think many of these issues can be solved by going back to different utility across weapon options. Simpler i not always better. Calvary charging a unit with swords should be more effective than say charging a unit with spears.
MTG reference: as an old, semi-retired, Unlimited, Revised, Legends, Dark player to casual Return to Ravnica-ish, that Incarnate reminds me so much of Planeswalkers and how my group just didn't play them for a few years ... hopefully they'll find a more widespread place in AoS eventually.
I came for the warhammer discussion. I stayed for the "Texas Hammer" shout out. Jim Addler has been flooding the Texas market with "Better call Saul"esque ads for decades.
Have been saying that as a nighthuant player (also I play FEC so at the top and bottom of stats). Bladegiest revenants did not change from 3rd to 4th, same to hit, to wound, rend, damage, save and movement. Even the +1 attack on the charge is the same as 3rd. The only thing that changed? they went from a range of 1 inch to a range of 3 inches. Never took units of 20 in prior editions, now 2 units of 20 is a staple in all lists
It's always interesting to see how small changes can shift strategies!
What is interesting is that Fyreslayer units can be Hammer, anvil or porcupine depending on buffs. 40 wounds on a 4+ ignoring 3 rend with a 5++ is a hell of an anvil, 60 attacks with crit mortals is a good hammer. and ASF and crit mortals makes a good porcupine..... we just don't have the speed
It really is the thing that hurts the army the most, but they are versatile.
It is kinda funny that an army of underground-dwelling, gold-loving dwarves is lacking prospectors.
Thanks for listening to the feedback from last week. Hope you enjoyed your Halloween.
Glad to hear it!
There was a brief period in the days we don't talk about when Empire Cannons could easily get to 2 attacks, 2+/2+/-2/D6 at i believe 36" which was solid for what they did. Range was much longer than the other options and the damage was good. Rend 2 in 2st ed was also really high. We just have no real stats or anything from back then
For heavy Cav they can do what they do in 40k and have a different reinforcement cost deincentivizing packs of 6
On the artillery: they should do splash damage. Every units in combat range from the original target should also make a save roll.
Bring back blast markers! 😂
Brutes can get up to an additional 5 attacks with a mega boss, 8+ brawl charge, and all out attack
Its true, but the delivery mechanism is as always the challenge. It would require them to get the charge and not be charged, in my experience, that is difficult with a 4" move and being hunted by things moving 14-20"
Monsters should come with a built-in -1 to wound
On the topic of artillery the beast skewer killbow has done a lot of work for me.
Unfortunately I often have to deploy it near the line, and its a bit of a silver bullet, but threatening 12 rend 3 damage isn't a joke.
Vince's costume is phenomenonemal!
The Endrinmaster is basically a must take utility hero now that he lets boats retreat/run n shoot.
250-300 points on prospectors is an extremely useful recommendation for list building. I love guides that just kind of tell you ok this many points for hammers this much for support this much for anvils. Extremely helpful.
Exactly! You need to be able to balance your army!
It's really funny. I'm watching this and every time Tom starts going on a point, UA-cam gives me an ad right in the middle of his sentence.
Thank you for calling that out, that means UA-cam did the bad thing and inserted a bunch of ads again, I have removed them. You shoudl be able to refresh and watch normally now. :)
@@VinceVenturella Part of me thought it was intentional, and it made me laugh. Thanks for removing the ads though. Great content as always
I think there is a big appetite for "non-competitive" events. Three games in a day is a slog sometimes.
My local Horus Heresy community has really leaned into co-op narrative events and it's been an absolute blast. Big apocalypse games, 2v2, 4v4. Bigger longer games with less time pressure, more collaboration and generally people having more bandwidth to help each other out with rules and ideas for what to do, "Of course my Sisters of Silence HQ is going to duel the Keeper of Secrets, that's awesome!"
I'm 100% on this train. I can sneak out long enough for a game here and there, but I really have zero interest in a 9-12 hour slog, and I would much rather enjoy the game as a beer and pretzels night than get super spiky about it.
Sorry I missed the show! Happy Halloween to you both and thank you again for all you do for our hobby
Thanks and you too!
I feel like cavalry would make more sense if they had lower movement, say capped at 8 inches, but had as standard a 3D6 charge. Alternatively, maybe capped at 10 inch move and a once per battle 3D6 charge. Mounted archers could have run and shoot as a differentiation.
Thank you vince!
I can't wait for the episode on buffs for monsters. Make them effective and reasonably costed!
Seen here, my 8th graders' amount of effort for Halloween dress up day. 👍
Tom's a madlad with that microphone
Yeah my biggest issue in Warhammer in general l, both AOS and 40K right now, is how written off whole classes of units are. I have so many great models that I just can't justify putting on a table even though I want to. Plagues claw catapult, soul grinder, exalted flamers, and in 40K my aircraft (Which I don't even want to be aircraft I just want them to have hover mode and be reasonably pointed so I can use the model). Just so many models I love and own that I can't justify putting on the table because they aren't even 80% as effective as what I should be taking.
I also think that anvils can be perfectly fine Even if they don't do any damage, But the pointing and the army design needs to facilitate that. They need to be pointed significantly differently than the anvils that do also do enough damage to win for example. And the army needs the synergy with its other units to take advantage of the time the anvil buys to still be able to come out ahead even if they're anvil is going to lose. For cities I'm thinking the ranged needs to be able to shoot the enemy dead in time. There's nothing inherently wrong with a design of anvils that will eventually lose as long as they last a while and are pointed such that you can maybe get two of them plus a unit like fusiliers instead of only avoiding two units of anvils that actually do enough damage to win the engagement.
I'm really glad you guys had that conversation at the end about units that aren't usable like all monsters. It really kind of drives me nuts in your podcast and others I listen to when people spend so much time talking about one or two units that are pretty good but not quite there and just literally ignore half the units in the book which actually need the help. I really didn't like it when you guys in your index reviews just completely skipped over talking about so many units that I love and want to use. Even if they're bad I want to hear them discussed that's the fun part of listening to this kind of stuff and you guys are really good at it, and the only thing I really don't like about your podcast is when you don't give me more podcast on these units to listen to!
5 super buffed brutes lifted 20 Mortek Gaurd who had the Katakros buff + 5+ ward. Both of us rolled average+. I have yet to see a problem with the brute war scroll itself. Other IJ problems are there but after 11 games vs brute heavy lists I still think they’re no joke.
Pleased to see Gutrippaz are here... Kruleboyz finally have meaningful dirty tricks, and if these guys get fully buffed nothing stands up to them.
They are definitely not one of the best units... I think competitively Vince is pretty off sometimes. People in general overhype and overestimate Kruleboyz
Thinking about the toughness problem what if they gave all non-hero monsters -1 to wound and ignore 1 rend? Seems like that would go a long way to make them tougher. It at least makes it difficult to calculate how easy it is to lift.
If GW is happy enough with the incarnate of Ghur in 4th I'm sure we'll get the incarnate of Aqshy in this edition. Probably around the time the tease narrative book comes out next year. Much like when and how the Ghur incarnate was released.
Vampire lord should in best unit. It’s not in a good category (foot hero assassin) but it’s a fantastic disruption piece and punches well above his weight class and is tanky enough to bring up another disruption piece the next turn while doing this in the opponents side of the field. And the more you have of them, the more effective they become.
Been trying to settle on a hammer for SCE (irony) with the new book. Seems you either pick one of the pallidors, stormdrakes, or dracothian guard? None of them are quite Varanguard level but what is.
I think that is right, but they are all viable, I thin the Pallidors or Stormdrakes are the best right now, but more can work.
Are centigors in beasts of chaos the best Calvary unit in the game? Shooting attack, +1 rend vs cav, 4+ ward
My Krondspine has a verminlord corruptor head on it.
Happy halloween guys!
Generic -1 to wound on big monsters? Would open op a munter hunter subgroup of units
The lack if anti-cavalry in the game is a big part of why they are so stong as a type. Lots ave anti-infantry but need more anti-cavalry
youz paintin da red gobbo!
I think the best unit in AoS 4.0 would be Tyler if you didn't have to roll for his deployment.
Tom can do some work if you play him right, the 'Hit the mic' debuff can be a real NPE though. I think it needs FAQ'd
late to the party, but I think a good solution would be to make monsters the anti-cav toolbox... and then kind of end up with a rock/paper/scissors system
Perhaps too late now with the monsters that have already been printed, but could be a good way to bring them back to the table
It is an interesting idea for sure!
Hit like and subscribe, like Tom is hitting his mic! Consistency is key :D
I will do absolutely nothing but think about why vince was painting a goblin model until he tells us.
As a Fyreslayers player, we don't really have anything that ticks any of these boxes 😂
You have anvils, and ummm, anvils
Where would you say stormdrake guard fit in?
I think they fall in the Hire a Hammer section, they can carry their weight.
@VinceVenturella Alr thanks.
Please don't remove reinforcement from Cav - think of the Mournfang! If they get stuck on 2 man units they are (even more) unusable.
The Porcupine units, like you said Zombies were that in 3rd, but so sad Zombies are just completly useless now, when other armies have access to such units ^^ At start Zombies were TOO powerful for sure in 3.0, but then got balanced better, and now in 4.0 they got put on the shelf for almost everyone, hope they atleast become playable when a new book comes, but not autoinclude in every list either.
I am thinking extremely deeply.
my first thought on a small fix for monsters without adding toughness, what if certain monsters had a "trans human " rule from 40k where they can only be wounded on a 4+? or some type of terror rule to give them better utility?
Krondspine in 3rd edition was very unfun due to the terrible core rules for incarnates and its own overstacked warscroll. It is much better in 4th edition. Among all the manifestations, it simply plays like a slightly different one of those. Which is fine. They could actually release another incarnate at this point.
I like the suggestion of giving all artillery units long range. Mostly 48", never less than 36". That would give them their own niche next to regular shooting units, that all went down to 12" to 24" range.
For Nighthaunt a feelbabd but effective nerf would be to create an exception for keyword based rend so they can be rented by those +1 rend on charge, infantry
Is it goblin time soon ? 😁
My fec are garbage, my maggotkin are garbage and I just finished rebaseing all my S2D on squares
If it's thursday and Vince is getting eaten by one of the chorus girls from Manamana that Doctor Strange have conjured up, hit like.
after deth wizard, its grin shaman
Goblin mayhem game on the horizon from badgers?!
One singular shaman though? I wonder if it's a painting competition...
Idc if you’re overly negative or positive. Just stop hitting the mike
Pleeeeease
Going by this breakdown of unit types, it becomes very clear very quickly how garbage FEC is this edition, which is such a disappointment. They have NO hammers, NO anvils, NO porcupines, NO cheap prospectors (the gorewarden is their only teleporting unit--don't even start with "b-but muh zombie dragon" cuz _nobody_ runs that--and he takes up an entire regiment slot), and their utility pieces can't even really be called that, because they don't "add" any additional utility--they provide abilities without which the faction is _incapable of functioning in the first place_ on a competitive level. Really sucks cuz the lore is fantastic and the new models are amazing, but I'm gonna have to give FEC a hard pass this edition, cuz the only list capable of topping is Ush, a pope or GKoTG, and like, 18 morbheg knights. Miss me with that snoozefest list.
Legends stuff allowed!? Multiple formats for Warhammer? Heaven forbid!
Lol in all seriousness coming over from MTG and other games with eternal formats and singleton formats and the like i would love to see a non-rotating rules set for a legends format where a casual player who only gets in a couple games a year doesn't need to "purchase" and learn a new ruleset to play their next 9 games of warhammer. I played a bit in 8th, got in at the tail end of 9th and with 10th im looking at flushing out a second army for my partner to play and the idea of having to learn 11th rules to play with other people by the time im done painting their army is... Wooof just gimmie an eternal format
It is definitely a really fun and interesting idea, but sadly GW hasn't gone that route, but I think that would be really neat.
Slaves: anvils? Hammers? Your units aren’t doing both things at the same time?
For raw utility I’d maybe call out The Masque and Sneaky Snufflaz as good picks.
The masque 100% for sure. She's MVP all the time.
M
Isn't the problem with narrative events that it doesn't sell models, so no incentive for GW to support? Hard to know without seeing the sales figures but I imagine it's more around making kids buy "the best" minis rather than actual tournament meta chasers.
depends, it does get kitchen table folks to go to events, which can be hard enough as is. And if they like it they might become more involved in the local community and actually pick up that second army they have been concidering for a while or whatever their N+1 is...
I don't know, I think most players are buying the models they like. I am not sure there really is much money in the tourney chasers to be honest.
@VinceVenturella I probably should have made it clearer that I think this is an internal GW perception, rather than actual consumer behaviour.