What a beautiful little introductory essay from HeyWoah. Everytime that man goes deep into the first principles of the game and how they interlock, I wish that the actual people making it thought and cared this much about their product.
This was like an early Christmas gift from HeyWoah. It’s one thing when he does it on his own channel, but to come to another channel and gift it by spending this kind of thoughtful consideration and wordcraft, it’s another thing entirely.
The day Tom debuts that new microphone will also be the day that Tom's hobby update is about the completion of a Rube Goldberg device, constructed from old sprues, that will automatically knock off the microphone without need for his hands.
Lore nerd out: the Goroan empire was in the lore since 2019. First with the 2016 Ogroid mage we got background info that Ogroids were a race that once worshipped Gorkamorka. 2019 S2D tome and the Myrmidon release added further they were Destruction until they sought more power and took chaos up on their promises of power which caused Destruction to exile them. Then 2022 with S2D the lore went into specifics that they were called Goroa, they had a very advanced civilization that traded with other nations(which already made Orruks & Ogors question them) and sought Chaos after a Waaaagh destroyed the heart of their empire. So they’ve been building up their lore for a long time.
To the point about RNG, I fundamentally agree with HeyWoah. The game as designed is only 5 turns total. That means that any given unit will be activated 5 times (with exceptions of course). If I have an ability on my unit that I only get to activate 5 times, it feels really terrible that there's a 33% chance that literally nothing happens when I activate it. This is taken to the extreme with abilities that are one per game and can just...fizzle. In general, I think the game feel would improve dramatically if every ability did at least something every time it's activated with a potential to do something additional if a second dice roll is necessary for some reason.
As a SCE player I feel this. So many abilities that only trigger if you roll a 3+... An ability that's dependent on a die roll needs to be suitably strong. It can't be both weak AND unreliable (like the Knight Azyros 3+: -1 to hit but only in his combat range. Which is both unreliable and pretty weak). As you said a way better design would be something like "roll a 3+: if the roll succeeds this unit has +1 to hit and wound, if it fails it has +1 to hit" etc.
I cant believe the number of subfactions that are choose 1 unit (most of the times it has even more conditions, ie choose 1 unit that charged this turn) roll a dice on a +3 you get a bonus You telling me, I'm sacrificing other subfactions, that give permanent buffs for almost all my army, for the CHANCE 1 unit does something ?
2nd edition, death are the main antagonist faction:- necroquake, obr turn up, broken realms has the rite of life to square that up and push them down back to level. 3ed: destruction main antagonists, aaaaaaand they dont get mentioned in the meta narrative at all......
I feel like GW needs to realize that Destruction should be the Grand Alliance wanting to return the Realms to a more primordial era, before Order, Chaos and Death. They even have a Prehistoric God on their side, damn it !
The idea of making Sons an RPG adventuring party is so brilliant I suddenly wanna build it all. Sadly, the idea is too brilliant for GW to ever execute.
Personally I disagree, the greenskins should still be the main boyz of the destruction faction, we already suffer enough with GW not giving us enough lore taking 3 years to update what Gordrakk did after getting to the eightpoints, we don't need even more of the greenskin's faction autonomy supplanted by a faction wouldn't even make sense to go alongside the orruks
Oddly Drycha could technically fit in destruction as she has green skin and she does want to destroy cities to plant more trees. In Warhammer Total War 2 she has gigantic spiders as a beast recruit in her army which is technically a destruction unit. I see a possible harmony between Drycha and greenskins as the fungus in the forests would also help them grow.
Praise Vince! On the Kragnos thing, I agree so much with this. Especially Kragnos doesn't fit into Destruction at all.. There is nothing related to this strange Centaur...
I pretty sure Vince has stated on Warhammer Weekly that he confirmed with the designer that the design brief for Kragnos was always that he would be a destruction guy. I'm pretty sure the idea came less from BoC and more from the designer playing Breath of the Wild...
I deeply appreciated HeyWoahs thoughts at the top of the conversation. To add to his point on "Life" being the idea for Destruction: Wouldn't it be great if Alarialle herself had to learn this lesson after seeing how her Rite of Life made the "era of the beast". It serves Destruction AND aelven lore, their hubris and its unintended consequences as a theme. Love the show
AoS destruction lore is terrible. Its why I stick to the WHF lore for my Ogres. They're not dumb, just extremely straightforward bullies. They set up a damn trade and tariff empire selling off furs and ivory while taking tribute from the merchant caravans. In AoS they're just locust. They barely even pay lipservice to their mercenary nature, they gave that to the SoB's.
My suggestion for the Beastclaw aspect of the book... Thundertusks... Make them have a 6" aura of -1 to hit to represent the cold. COMPLETELY drop the range attack. Up the wounds to 20 (18 for Beastrider version) Give it a 3+ save. Same Rampage as on scroll. Make it a true anvil. ..... Stonehorn... Increase the movement to 12 with run and charge. Make impact hits similar to the old way they worked in 3rd. Make its Horn attacks damage 4 and still have +1 damage on charge. (Controversial bit here) DROP stone Skeleton. Same mechanic as before for Rampage. Turn it into a proper hammer. So when it spikes, IT SPIKES. ....... A Huskard on the Thundertusk... PRIEST (2) Gains built in warcmscroll prayer... Blinding Blizzard (3+) Pick a friendly unit/monster within 18". Enemy units cannot target this unit with ranged attacks, prayers, or spell unless within 12" of that unit. Huskard is on a Stonehorn... PRIEST (2) ....... Create a Prayer lore for the Priests... Crushing Snowball (3+) *universal* Target enemy unit within 12" that unit takes D3 Damage. Winds of the everfrost (3+) If successful Pick a friendly unit within 12". Until the end of turn, unto may run and charge. A prayer of Frozen Spirit (4+) which gives strikes last, Avalanche (4+) Targets a terrain piece within line of sight roll a dice for each enemy unit within 6 inches. On a roll of 2+ The enemy unit take D3 Mortal wounds. Frost Lords... MAKE THEM A PRIEST (1) it's part of their lore, give them that buff. Keep everything else the same. No in built prayer but gain access to prayer lore. Gives them utility and some much needed punch again. Yetis... Give them a Unit champion. So they can issue commands to themselves. Increase their speed to 8" and give them a "wreathed in the everwinter" making them give a -1 to hit both in combat and ranged (yes this would stack with the other -1 debuff) turn them into a prospector unit and an interesting porcupine at a pinch. Mournfang Pack... Increase movement to 10". Control score if 3. Change Anti-Cavalry to Anti-Infantry Everything else stays the same. Beastriders Harpoon Launchers 2 shots instead of one. flat damage 2 Chaintrap hits on 3+ Blood Vulture range 24" roll a D6 on a 3+ causes 1 Mortal Wound Still don't know what to do about the Hunters...
I could not disagree more with HeyWoah. He’s calling for a complete rework of destruction. His essay calls for a replacement to destruction, not a rework. I think they need to lean more into what destruction is. It is a force of nature, survival of the fittest, force to be reckoned with. I agree with Vince that they shouldn’t all be dumb. They should have a simple cunning or focused on short sided outcomes, but not stupid. Love the passion and how this game appeals to so many different people on different levels.
Have not watched yet but preemptively, ironjawz players, you have to suck it up and play Kragnos. The best ironjawz player in the world is in my region and let me tell you, he has a one drop kragnos list that is basically unstoppable. He's basically giving you +1 attacks all the time and is once per game giving out 2, to himself even. And he's almost always picking who goes first, and a turn 2 double ends 80% of games.
Turn 2 double ending the game is not a good game design mechanic. That's in addition to all the problems destruction has. Having the god model of your Grand alliance be auto include is bad game design. Not playing until atleast turn 4 is bad game design. If the game is meant to be played for 5 rounds, then why design it be over at 2? Bad design.
Yeah, no shit. But until you get a new book, you have to play the army you have. This is advice, not advocacy. Also, unless you're playing kb, you're in destruction because you like smashy smashy. If that's what you want to do, right now you need Kragnos to do it. Ideally games always go to turn 4 or 5 but there are armies where that isn't their goal. That being "bad design" depends entirely on how fun it is to play and play against.
Generally best not to stop buying from a company during a strike unless the steikers ask you to. The reason is because it actually reduces the strikers barganing strength, at least in the early stages
I still sometimes watch the last review of the ogors book for 3.0 with HeyWoah, just to remember what the best times in AoS was like! I’ve never had so much fun playing AoS and playing different armies; shooting, Kragnos charge, melee, monsters, combined arms, than in the last year of AoS 3!
Your argument about intelligence creating characterisation, agency, action, reaction, etc. is why I don't like the crazed berserker archetype. When the extent of them is 'me am kill you!' I don't have a character to hang any personality from.
When I think of ironjawz type Orcs, slow doesn't sit with me. Maybe slow to start but unstoppable bulldozer if you let them get speed up. Maybe give them run and charge with impact damage.
The Tyranids are a great example - they're essentially a Destruction army. Eat eat eat. But they're characterised as learning, adapting, smart but smart in the way birds and sharks are smart. This is how ogres used to be characterised too - intelligence, but on a different flight path than humanity. Straightforward doesn't have to mean dumb. Destruction doesn't have to be 'smart despite.' It can just be a different flavour of smart.
The problem with destruction is that it never had a concept. It shouldn't have been 'destruction' - it should have been 'nature' or 'the wilds' or 'life' - a faction seeking to preserve the realms in their natural wild state, equally opposed to the destruction of chaos, the nihilism of death, the stiffling control of order... oh, wait, Heywoah is saying the exact same thing I had long been thinking. But yeah, if 'destruction' had instead been a 'wilds' faction attempting to preserve the natural state of the realms then sylvaneth could have been part of the grand alliance. Beastmen too - while they started as the children of chaos, they could have been written as seeing archaon's return as the gods trying to take back their gift of these realms, and someone like Kragnos could have been a beastman champion leading his people against the betraying gods and allying or even merging identities with kurnouth.
Agreed. Primal might be a more inclusive faction name for this concept, but having the orcs and what not tearing things down to return to a more natural state of living, working with sylvaneth, etc, is much more compelling.
I don't suspect it's what the great majority of players WANT from the faction. But as a baby warhammer player getting into wargaming for the first time with AOS. My presumption reading lore blurbs like "These heavy Juggernauts..." or seeing that I was going to get to run 3 man units instead of 20. I thought getting into the army, that they were the fantasy equivalent of Custodese(even if I didn't know what those were at the time) I've pitched for years that Gutbusters should be the hyper elite mega tank infantry faction. I've sold my ogors. But if that ever happened. Boy howdy would I come back to my gutplate with a FURY
I argue that Daughters of Khaine - at the inception of AoS, not with Morathi now ascended to godhood - should have been placed in Destruction. To show diversity in the Grand Alliances, placing Elves all over the place, etc.
Excellent video. Really appreciate you both taking the time to research and dissect some of the issues facing my favourite armies. Here's hoping GW puts as much effort into the AOS4 Destruction Battletomes as you both did into this video 💚
for giants, they are clearly few in numbers so each of them, especially megas, should be able to choose between a couple special abilities to personalise them. It would be a way to keep existing kits but make them feel different. Kinda like artefacts and command traits on steroid
Came for AOS talk got a blast from the past with the Rifts talk. Lots of great session with that system back in the day. Glad people are still playing. :)
Ironjawz rally in combat. I've said before. I'll say it forever. Calling a Waaagh should summon/revive a unit. Now they've kind of boxed themselves out of that with 4th edition rules. But definitely should've been the route they go.
Crackpot army idea for destruction: Avenging Ancients Since the grotmas ror opened up that there's still non-corrupted goroans out there how about an army of them banded together with the survivors of the drogukh (however its spelled). Goroans as your priests/wizards, foot tropps, shooters and war machines (since they are intelligent by destruction standards and are proud of there craftsmanship) and drogukh for you cavalry and monsters. Kragnos and a goroan warlord or shaman as faction warmasters and away you go. The two spurned and lost cultures of destruction banding together to survive in a new era.
I love the new RoRs! I've been waiting for them to do cross-GA allies forever. As for the possible short shelf life... it's not like even entire armies are guaranteed to last anymore 😅
They’re extra nice because they’re pseudo-based around all the recent Stormbringer stuff. Lot of people just found lots of expansions for their armies which were formerly just random painting projects 👌
It's always nice when you have HeyWoah on, & not talk about MtG too much. Also, Vince having a card of Doctor Doom in his wallet (over his wife) amuses me. Thanks for the show--sorry I couldn't chat live with you guys!
I go absolutely FERAL for a HeyWoah monologue. Dude could talk about self-raising flour for twenty minutes and his inflection and turn-of-phrase would still keep me on the edge of my seat. Destruction absolutely should be the naturally violent state of the realms themselves resisting intrusion and occupation. If GW ever did anything with them, Bonesplitterz could have been a fantastic force-of-nature faction. Their little lore blurb explaining their disappearance states that some of them have gone to beat up incarnates in an attempt to call the world down after the Vermindoom. They could have returned as a faction of magic-crazed incarnate channellers, not only being a unique orruk faction but also showcasing even more quirks of the setting through its unique magic and/or wildlife.
I’d love to see Mega-Gargants be the ancient and wise sages of GA Destruction that the smaller races look up to for their insight into the nature of the Realms
To fix the Bad Moon: instead of existing on table quarters and moving on its path it can now exist in 4 locations (technically 5). Each location being the center of a table edge. It shines its light on that half of the table and the other is in Darkness. It starts on the center of the table effecting the whole table. At the start of the round roll off against your opponent, the winner deciding how to move the Bad Moon. The Bad Moon MUST move to an adjacent node, and a Gitz Player can move the Bad Moon to the Center if the won the roll (or won the roll and the roll was a 5+). The moon now orbits around the board casting half in light and half in darkness and the Gitz player is actually feeling like they are chasing up be in the bad moon
Episodes like this are the reason I continuously tune in. Bullseye on so any things. This is actually why Kruleboyz are my favourite concept to come out of AoS. Geedubs took a big risk deviating from the tried and true big dumb orc design with them and sadly I see them just be melted back down into the low effort creativity as the rest of destro. Sadly I don't see this getting any better.... We'll see with the newest OW and GSG drop but I'm not expecting much. Th overall effort from the company itself seems to be going in a low effort direction more and more imo. Great episode, gents. 👊
aestyetically, i love the idea of mixing a few sylvaneth units into a nighthaunt army for a spooky haunted forest theme, but rules-wise? Yeah, not so much.
a good part of the new AoS grotmas regiments are basicly a mix of the basis and premium content from the hachette stormbringer Abo. If you have the Abo you have now the chance to use them in some way without start a new army.
The giants have, in the actual setting, matrons, that are basically the shamans of the tribes, and keep the oral tradition alive. There you have a wizard giant. We won't get a warscroll for that tho
Thank you both for this video! Super (and very sad) state of affairs regarding destruction armies. I love your ideas about SoB!!! GW should engage HeyWoah !!! :) However, as long as units like Varanguards (to name but one) are able to kill 2 giants in 1 activation, having a fifth won’t change anything... Given their life expectancy on the tables today, one may wonder how they have survived so far! Given their save, it's to believe that they have a baby skin and, at the slightest scratch, they will die of sepsis
An interesting addendum to this that I know 75% of your audience isn't interested in: For some of the reasons Heywoah identified at the 40min mark for why Destro is bad... Destruction is the absolute strongest GA in Warcry. Destruction's random stupid brutes just do more damage than everyone else's stupid brutes in Warcry, and it forms a core pillar of the game. This isn't necessarily a good thing, but it is a reasonable place for anyone frustrated by destro's mechanics in AOS to go and play their toys in a game where those toys do the maximum amount of work.
@Kroeghe I mean, yeah that's fair. It would be cool if every faction in every game were designed with an empathetic eye towards giving people a fun experience with their toys. I liked Vince's point (and he's made similar ones in other shows) that sometimes they have this subconscious association with certain factions that bleeds into the rules writing. Destro in warcry is still designed to be big dumb scary, but for some reason the faction abilities just came in to be just as good as the abilities for other GA, which combined with the hitting power make them the strongest GA.
Order: Protagonist Chaos: Antagonist Death: Deuteragonist Destruction: NPC I definitely agree that making pretty much all of Destruction "dumb" is a big problem. It is fine if all non-Brodd Sons are somewhat dumb and act as a force of nature. But Orruks, Ogors and Gitz should have clever leaders. With their own thoughts and motivations. They can love constant fighting while using sound tactics. See Khorne. Speaking of Chaos: Ogors and Ironjaws can be tactically clever like Khorne, Kruleboyz can be tricky like Tzeentch and Gitz can be sneaky and scheming like Skaven. And only Sons keep a very straightforward, move and smash playstyle. Bottom line: GW can keep most Destruction armies simpler and more Timmy-focused while still including interesting characters for the lore and interesting effects for the gameplay.
As an IJ player I haven't even played 4th ed yet. Maybe I'd have a good gaming experience, but from what I heard unless I play a specific build I'd have really bad game. I'm not bummed by losing, but by bad play experience. I'll either have to switch my main army or just keep playing other wargames... Great show Vince! Heywoah is great guest as always!
I think the first problem with this is that the definition of "fun" used through the conversation is too flexible. Sometimes you are meaning "fun derived from having a fair chance of winning (defined by sitting in the Goldilocks Zone)" and other times you just mean "you enjoy yourself playing with the army regardless of win chance". In a competitive game space the later is a distant second to the first. The first leads to the situation you have now with the giants - where the variation in units is so small. The current situation with giants also hightlights the problem with your proposal - the more different they are the more players will just take the one deemed "best" relegating the others to the bench - even by the slimest of margins! Games like MtG defeat this by limiting availability (yes they can do this in AoS as well) and forcing more choices and possibly sacrifices in efficacy of the strategy (see the early edition Red Aggro success vs its later failing as the pool of "best" for control strategies improves.).
OMG I SAID THAT! about Gargants. Yes. 25 health. 400 points. They should also all be minimum rend 2 always. Damage 4 minimum always. They should not like being near each other so they don't ever get to dog pile on units. Forcing them to spread out. Make it so they hit each other if they're ever in a situation where there's no enemy unit nearby. D3 damage. They heal when they kill models. Like again, there's a well of creativity they are missing with Gargants
The idea a new mic is going to stop Tom hitting it. I think destruction suffers from the design team not having a clear conception of the theme and cannot get a balance between the menance they should represent and the comic elements. They sorted 40k orks in 3rd but have still slipped back a bit
I wanna sell a few things to you, these all piqued my interest haha Nurgles Gift in a Darkoath army makes them super interesting. The maruaders deal mortals when they die, feed the wilderfiend and then pop out as a nurgling while being able to recur. Its going to be so fun and chaotic. Thematically im partial to the lost song in a soulblight list. A living forest beset by a thick fog, obscurring the undead dire wolves and vampires lurking within. Its so gothic and bad ass. Im hyped to hobby a display piece up for that. What do yall think?
I want the Ravening Gnarloak from Warcry to be Ogors 3rd terrain piece. Or better yet a unit. It's a giant walking tree with a mouth; should be in Ogor Mawtribes.
Destruction should be forces of nature, with nature cycle like IDK. Units should ingest/take on the aspects of the realm like Chamon hard as steel or Ghyran heals each round.
Because this isn't the first time we've seen content like this. Your best case is basically until the end of 4th. We've been down this road many, many times.
Very well said by heywhoah! Sadly GW just isn't interested in Destruction and as a result they are rarely allocating enough time/energy to write decent lore or rules for us.
It does hurt a bit that you ignored Bonesplitterz near completely. We are still an army.... for a little bit at least. Listening to you guys talk, did remind me of why I loved the army. Lore wise, they did have a higher purpose outside of random destruction. And that was to bring about the reunification of the Gorka Morka and a new Orruk golden age. Up until 3rd edition, they had multiple play styles and tricks you could pull off. The 3rd edition book is horrible. The index wasn't great either, as the internal balance was horrible. However it didn't hit has hard as the 3rd edition book. My list these days is basically Kragnos, backed up by heals, and the formation that turns off wards on enemy units in combat range.
The overall thrust of your argument is... Very similar to what went wrong with the color blue in Magic in the early years! Why blue was way too good and green was way too bad; the brute-force colors/factions are defined by their limitations, and designers are usually harsh on them, but the "smart" colors/factions are just allowed to do whatever, to have these qualitatively-insane and wacky effects, with very few checks on them. Your cards can just do whatever, because you're "the color of magic". And then later on, when you two describe the Tzeentch armies as being the "smart-person fantasy" of the army actually doing most of the work for you, just letting you decide at the last minute to do things, instead of requiring all the cleverness and planning from you, you just get to make the choice later... Well if that don't sound like blue decks in Magic! Blue mages think they're SO smart, holding up that mana and casting instant-speed card-draw at the end of the other player's turn, never having to commit! But their job is much-easier than that of regular decks; they just get to wait and see, to react! Their opponent has to make the more-meaningful decisions, more in-the-dark!
I started the hobby a few weeks ago with Ogors Spearhead. Is it just a meta thing and they are ok to play or are they unplayable bad? I really like the Leadbelchers and the Frostlord looks sooo nice. Should i switch armies while i can or is it fine to stick with em?
I would have preferes if Big Waagh came back through special Regiment of Renown exclusive to orruks. Like, if you are a Kruleboyz player, you could have the choice between a RoR centered around (and highlighting the features of) a ardboy boss, or a megaboss, or Tuskboss (not a weirdnob shaman, cause KBz already have shamans). If you are a Ironjawz player, you could have the choice between the already existing killabow and boltboyz, the breaka-boss and monstakillaz, or the soon to be hobgrot boss and hobgrots (for cheap chaff). Something like that...
Kruleboyz got a great glow-up from 3rd to 4th but agree with all the comments. The army are difficult to play, and so squishy. But... It is fun. Would love some means to make dirty tricks more reliable. That would make the army competitive at the top table. Right now, they aren't.
I dont even know that it needs to go as far as chnaging the alliance. Just tone down the randomness and put in more "hearty" rules. Like a good theme for destruction especially Orruks and Ogors could be that they have alot of ignore modifiers rules. Megaboss on foot can make a unit of brutes ignore wound roll modifiers on a 2+. Ogors all have a 6+ ward because of their tough skin. There's just such a lack of creativity in destruction because they rely on the "random" theme rather than a more appropriate theme for the alliance. Destruction ARE forces of nature. IN FACT. I'd be all for changing the Alliance name to Nature. Order Chaos Death Nature That to me makes more sense. These are the the forces of nature. Even thiugh it does cause a BIT of a problem with alarielle. You can justify it away by saying she's the goddess of life, and she is focused on her people and specifically trees rather than being a FORCE of nature. Maybe even Grand Alliance of Brutality. I dunno. Destruction isn't necessarily bad. They do just need to refocus and rebrand
Big agree on your suggestions for fixing the gameplay of Sons: Average 400 points per Mega with 30 health, 10 control, same damage output as they have now. Also, more interesting and diverse abilites for most of them. Big disagree on your suggestions for changing their style and flavour of Sons: The European (not just British!) fairytale giants are a very good fit for both Warhammer and Destruction.
The issue with videos like this, to no fault of your own, is dat GW plans books YEARS in advance. Rules are written long before any feedback can reach them. Meaning that this video might see a chance at being applied to 5th edition at the earliest. And frankly, that sucks hard.
Could someone tell me qhere to find the win % ? Is kt a website? Blog? I didnt understand the name they memtionned? Warhammers? Or is it officially by warhammer?
I guess it makes sense from a game pov to forcing army lists to go all in on specific subfactions, but I hate subfactions. Less so in obvious soup books, but still. I collect my army factions because they’re cool. I don’t want to split them. I don’t want skinks separate from saurus. If you’re writing the game to have swamp orcs to work as a different army faction to Ironjaws then make them separate factions already. Surely a subfactions should just add some flavor, not change the ingredient list completely.
Here's my idea of Destruction getting more evolved. Maybe the elite Destruction are meant to be a big civilisation that of gladiator like beings. maybe Orc like but have skin like stone in a sense and having maybe like titan like army . They are smart but in a brutal way . In a sense of Mad max but more rich along with big powerful gigantic creatures . I think Destruction should have really elite like beings but in a brutal way .
My friends are getting into to AoS after March. I chose Sons of Behemat cause i already play Cult in 40k and i need less to paint. Love the goofy factor. How cooked am i?
Great discussion as always, however I don't agree with HeyWoah's introduction. Having intelligence and complex personality is not necessary for great faction in Warhammer. Let's look at 40k - both Orks and Tyranids function in the world as basically natural disasters. Some Ork Bosses do have their own plots and schemes in action, but it mostly comes down with wanting to have the best fight there is. Tyranids have basically no lore - The Hive Mind may be highly inteligent, but I doubt we will ever its perspective or in-depth explanation. Even sixth subfaction in Gloomspite Gitz sounds better than basing Destruction on some anime nonsense ;-)
A prospector is someone who goes out and gets you simple battle tactics so for example, it is generally fast cheap units that die quite easily that sit on the flanks and do take the flanks then they run back into the enemy territory and they take their land and so on late game if they still exist, maybe the act is chaff or just to be a little bit of objective control or objective threat something like that. Their prospectors because they get gold gold meaning points.
What bothers me the most about orruks is that they’ve inherited nothing about what made Orcs great in WHF or in 40k. 40k Orks are instinctively drawn to a particular clan. Place an ork from every clan together and they are clearly relatedx but are completely different. They retain a cohesive theme despite their differences. WHF Orc Warbands followed warbosses of different flavours with some genuinely interesting characters. They should not fit into life/death/order/chaos. They should be the ultimate wildcard. Both predictable and unpredictable. Truly enigmatic. They’ve also long provided an incredibly rare thing in WH - humour. From doom divers to squigs, blood axes to blood bowl goblins, they’ve always had an air of humour about them. In 40k they can even will things into existence when enough of them believe something to be true. What makes orruks dull is the different clans are too separate from another. Kruleboyz are so different to Ironjawz that they each have to have stand independently from one another, and their design isn’t strong enough to do that. 40k Evil Sunz don’t have to do that because they’re Orks first. Grimgor, Skarsnik and Azhag are all completely different characters but all part of the Greenskin horde. GW differentiated the greenskins from one another in AoS but haven’t made the factions character strong enough to do that.
What a beautiful little introductory essay from HeyWoah. Everytime that man goes deep into the first principles of the game and how they interlock, I wish that the actual people making it thought and cared this much about their product.
This was like an early Christmas gift from HeyWoah.
It’s one thing when he does it on his own channel, but to come to another channel and gift it by spending this kind of thoughtful consideration and wordcraft, it’s another thing entirely.
Unreal! I barely even know about AoS but understood him so well lol
Hot damn HeyWoah hitting the nail on the head with the topic intro. Destro needs a Pantheon not a Pantheoff
The day Tom debuts that new microphone will also be the day that Tom's hobby update is about the completion of a Rube Goldberg device, constructed from old sprues, that will automatically knock off the microphone without need for his hands.
Lore nerd out: the Goroan empire was in the lore since 2019.
First with the 2016 Ogroid mage we got background info that Ogroids were a race that once worshipped Gorkamorka.
2019 S2D tome and the Myrmidon release added further they were Destruction until they sought more power and took chaos up on their promises of power which caused Destruction to exile them.
Then 2022 with S2D the lore went into specifics that they were called Goroa, they had a very advanced civilization that traded with other nations(which already made Orruks & Ogors question them) and sought Chaos after a Waaaagh destroyed the heart of their empire.
So they’ve been building up their lore for a long time.
To the point about RNG, I fundamentally agree with HeyWoah. The game as designed is only 5 turns total. That means that any given unit will be activated 5 times (with exceptions of course). If I have an ability on my unit that I only get to activate 5 times, it feels really terrible that there's a 33% chance that literally nothing happens when I activate it. This is taken to the extreme with abilities that are one per game and can just...fizzle. In general, I think the game feel would improve dramatically if every ability did at least something every time it's activated with a potential to do something additional if a second dice roll is necessary for some reason.
As a SCE player I feel this. So many abilities that only trigger if you roll a 3+...
An ability that's dependent on a die roll needs to be suitably strong. It can't be both weak AND unreliable (like the Knight Azyros 3+: -1 to hit but only in his combat range. Which is both unreliable and pretty weak).
As you said a way better design would be something like "roll a 3+: if the roll succeeds this unit has +1 to hit and wound, if it fails it has +1 to hit" etc.
I cant believe the number of subfactions that are choose 1 unit (most of the times it has even more conditions, ie choose 1 unit that charged this turn) roll a dice on a +3 you get a bonus
You telling me, I'm sacrificing other subfactions, that give permanent buffs for almost all my army, for the CHANCE 1 unit does something ?
2nd edition, death are the main antagonist faction:- necroquake, obr turn up, broken realms has the rite of life to square that up and push them down back to level.
3ed: destruction main antagonists, aaaaaaand they dont get mentioned in the meta narrative at all......
I feel like GW needs to realize that Destruction should be the Grand Alliance wanting to return the Realms to a more primordial era, before Order, Chaos and Death. They even have a Prehistoric God on their side, damn it !
The idea of making Sons an RPG adventuring party is so brilliant I suddenly wanna build it all.
Sadly, the idea is too brilliant for GW to ever execute.
And here i was just going "i wonder what heywoah has been up to lately"
Let Alarielle take over, Order has enough faction, it doesn't need the angry trees.
Personally I disagree, the greenskins should still be the main boyz of the destruction faction, we already suffer enough with GW not giving us enough lore taking 3 years to update what Gordrakk did after getting to the eightpoints, we don't need even more of the greenskin's faction autonomy supplanted by a faction wouldn't even make sense to go alongside the orruks
@@grey3247 Fair. For one thing the god of destruction should be some greenskin and not some weird centaur.
Oddly Drycha could technically fit in destruction as she has green skin and she does want to destroy cities to plant more trees. In Warhammer Total War 2 she has gigantic spiders as a beast recruit in her army which is technically a destruction unit. I see a possible harmony between Drycha and greenskins as the fungus in the forests would also help them grow.
37:40
VV: Brood Terror can only go up right now, he's such crap.
Brood Terror: -goes to Legends-
ha that was my thought also
Don't you manifest that
Praise Vince! On the Kragnos thing, I agree so much with this. Especially Kragnos doesn't fit into Destruction at all.. There is nothing related to this strange Centaur...
1000% agree
For now...
If Rumors are to be believes he was supposed to go into beast of chaos, but they didnt want to can it and put it in destruction
I pretty sure Vince has stated on Warhammer Weekly that he confirmed with the designer that the design brief for Kragnos was always that he would be a destruction guy. I'm pretty sure the idea came less from BoC and more from the designer playing Breath of the Wild...
I just use my Rogue Idol model for Kragnos. Fits the theme of my Orks way better and is about the right size.
Only when the last warscroll has been cut down, GW will finally realise destruction players can't eat memes.
Destruction should be the natives of AoS, fighting the other alliances to get of their land. so nature, life and tribalism should be their identity.
It would have been interesting if Sylvaneth were actually part of "Destruction".
I deeply appreciated HeyWoahs thoughts at the top of the conversation. To add to his point on "Life" being the idea for Destruction: Wouldn't it be great if Alarialle herself had to learn this lesson after seeing how her Rite of Life made the "era of the beast". It serves Destruction AND aelven lore, their hubris and its unintended consequences as a theme. Love the show
AoS destruction lore is terrible. Its why I stick to the WHF lore for my Ogres. They're not dumb, just extremely straightforward bullies. They set up a damn trade and tariff empire selling off furs and ivory while taking tribute from the merchant caravans.
In AoS they're just locust. They barely even pay lipservice to their mercenary nature, they gave that to the SoB's.
Hell yeah, the Maw lore is far better than "Gorkamorka's"
My suggestion for the Beastclaw aspect of the book...
Thundertusks...
Make them have a 6" aura of -1 to hit to represent the cold.
COMPLETELY drop the range attack.
Up the wounds to 20 (18 for Beastrider version)
Give it a 3+ save.
Same Rampage as on scroll.
Make it a true anvil.
.....
Stonehorn...
Increase the movement to 12 with run and charge. Make impact hits similar to the old way they worked in 3rd. Make its Horn attacks damage 4 and still have +1 damage on charge.
(Controversial bit here) DROP stone Skeleton.
Same mechanic as before for Rampage.
Turn it into a proper hammer. So when it spikes, IT SPIKES.
.......
A Huskard on the Thundertusk...
PRIEST (2)
Gains built in warcmscroll prayer... Blinding Blizzard (3+) Pick a friendly unit/monster within 18". Enemy units cannot target this unit with ranged attacks, prayers, or spell unless within 12" of that unit.
Huskard is on a Stonehorn...
PRIEST (2)
.......
Create a Prayer lore for the Priests...
Crushing Snowball (3+) *universal* Target enemy unit within 12" that unit takes D3 Damage.
Winds of the everfrost (3+) If successful Pick a friendly unit within 12". Until the end of turn, unto may run and charge.
A prayer of Frozen Spirit (4+) which gives strikes last,
Avalanche (4+) Targets a terrain piece within line of sight roll a dice for each enemy unit within 6 inches. On a roll of 2+ The enemy unit take D3 Mortal wounds.
Frost Lords... MAKE THEM A PRIEST (1) it's part of their lore, give them that buff. Keep everything else the same. No in built prayer but gain access to prayer lore. Gives them utility and some much needed punch again.
Yetis... Give them a Unit champion. So they can issue commands to themselves. Increase their speed to 8" and give them a "wreathed in the everwinter" making them give a -1 to hit both in combat and ranged (yes this would stack with the other -1 debuff) turn them into a prospector unit and an interesting porcupine at a pinch.
Mournfang Pack...
Increase movement to 10".
Control score if 3.
Change Anti-Cavalry to Anti-Infantry
Everything else stays the same.
Beastriders
Harpoon Launchers 2 shots instead of one. flat damage 2
Chaintrap hits on 3+
Blood Vulture range 24" roll a D6 on a 3+ causes 1 Mortal Wound
Still don't know what to do about the Hunters...
I could not disagree more with HeyWoah. He’s calling for a complete rework of destruction. His essay calls for a replacement to destruction, not a rework. I think they need to lean more into what destruction is. It is a force of nature, survival of the fittest, force to be reckoned with.
I agree with Vince that they shouldn’t all be dumb. They should have a simple cunning or focused on short sided outcomes, but not stupid.
Love the passion and how this game appeals to so many different people on different levels.
Have not watched yet but preemptively, ironjawz players, you have to suck it up and play Kragnos.
The best ironjawz player in the world is in my region and let me tell you, he has a one drop kragnos list that is basically unstoppable.
He's basically giving you +1 attacks all the time and is once per game giving out 2, to himself even. And he's almost always picking who goes first, and a turn 2 double ends 80% of games.
😉
Turn 2 double ending the game is not a good game design mechanic. That's in addition to all the problems destruction has. Having the god model of your Grand alliance be auto include is bad game design. Not playing until atleast turn 4 is bad game design. If the game is meant to be played for 5 rounds, then why design it be over at 2? Bad design.
Yeah, no shit. But until you get a new book, you have to play the army you have. This is advice, not advocacy.
Also, unless you're playing kb, you're in destruction because you like smashy smashy. If that's what you want to do, right now you need Kragnos to do it.
Ideally games always go to turn 4 or 5 but there are armies where that isn't their goal. That being "bad design" depends entirely on how fun it is to play and play against.
Funny, as I specifically address this very thing during the show...
Generally best not to stop buying from a company during a strike unless the steikers ask you to. The reason is because it actually reduces the strikers barganing strength, at least in the early stages
this is not at all how it works lol
Destruction so bad it was more interesting for the hosts to wax on about comics for 20 minutes
I still sometimes watch the last review of the ogors book for 3.0 with HeyWoah, just to remember what the best times in AoS was like! I’ve never had so much fun playing AoS and playing different armies; shooting, Kragnos charge, melee, monsters, combined arms, than in the last year of AoS 3!
Wow! That intro was incredible. Such a better direction for Destruction and the improvement of the AoS IP as a whole.
Your argument about intelligence creating characterisation, agency, action, reaction, etc. is why I don't like the crazed berserker archetype. When the extent of them is 'me am kill you!' I don't have a character to hang any personality from.
When I think of ironjawz type Orcs, slow doesn't sit with me. Maybe slow to start but unstoppable bulldozer if you let them get speed up. Maybe give them run and charge with impact damage.
The Tyranids are a great example - they're essentially a Destruction army. Eat eat eat. But they're characterised as learning, adapting, smart but smart in the way birds and sharks are smart. This is how ogres used to be characterised too - intelligence, but on a different flight path than humanity. Straightforward doesn't have to mean dumb. Destruction doesn't have to be 'smart despite.' It can just be a different flavour of smart.
Definitely agree w/ HeyWoah about the problem of making an entire GA the GA of being mindless destruction. It's kind of the Greenskins fault honestly.
The problem with destruction is that it never had a concept. It shouldn't have been 'destruction' - it should have been 'nature' or 'the wilds' or 'life' - a faction seeking to preserve the realms in their natural wild state, equally opposed to the destruction of chaos, the nihilism of death, the stiffling control of order... oh, wait, Heywoah is saying the exact same thing I had long been thinking. But yeah, if 'destruction' had instead been a 'wilds' faction attempting to preserve the natural state of the realms then sylvaneth could have been part of the grand alliance. Beastmen too - while they started as the children of chaos, they could have been written as seeing archaon's return as the gods trying to take back their gift of these realms, and someone like Kragnos could have been a beastman champion leading his people against the betraying gods and allying or even merging identities with kurnouth.
Agreed. Primal might be a more inclusive faction name for this concept, but having the orcs and what not tearing things down to return to a more natural state of living, working with sylvaneth, etc, is much more compelling.
first
BIG
Surprised you found the comment button while being in the Realm of Shadow, nice of Vince to balance it out with being in Hysh on the screen. 😄🌚🌝
Was it my interview you were watching? 😊
@@MossDogAoS Yes it was!
@@HeyWoah oh, bless your heart! 🥰
I don't suspect it's what the great majority of players WANT from the faction. But as a baby warhammer player getting into wargaming for the first time with AOS. My presumption reading lore blurbs like "These heavy Juggernauts..." or seeing that I was going to get to run 3 man units instead of 20. I thought getting into the army, that they were the fantasy equivalent of Custodese(even if I didn't know what those were at the time)
I've pitched for years that Gutbusters should be the hyper elite mega tank infantry faction. I've sold my ogors. But if that ever happened. Boy howdy would I come back to my gutplate with a FURY
I argue that Daughters of Khaine - at the inception of AoS, not with Morathi now ascended to godhood - should have been placed in Destruction. To show diversity in the Grand Alliances, placing Elves all over the place, etc.
Excellent video. Really appreciate you both taking the time to research and dissect some of the issues facing my favourite armies. Here's hoping GW puts as much effort into the AOS4 Destruction Battletomes as you both did into this video 💚
Thanks! We are hoping that they do as well.
for giants, they are clearly few in numbers so each of them, especially megas, should be able to choose between a couple special abilities to personalise them. It would be a way to keep existing kits but make them feel different. Kinda like artefacts and command traits on steroid
Good idea
agreed on the guants they are such a good base for conversion i 100% agree
Came for AOS talk got a blast from the past with the Rifts talk. Lots of great session with that system back in the day. Glad people are still playing. :)
I'm glad you enjoyed the blast from the past!
You have the best show on the internet an it really shows. I’m saving this episode is funny and informative 👍👍👍😎
Ironjawz rally in combat. I've said before. I'll say it forever.
Calling a Waaagh should summon/revive a unit. Now they've kind of boxed themselves out of that with 4th edition rules. But definitely should've been the route they go.
Crackpot army idea for destruction: Avenging Ancients
Since the grotmas ror opened up that there's still non-corrupted goroans out there how about an army of them banded together with the survivors of the drogukh (however its spelled). Goroans as your priests/wizards, foot tropps, shooters and war machines (since they are intelligent by destruction standards and are proud of there craftsmanship) and drogukh for you cavalry and monsters. Kragnos and a goroan warlord or shaman as faction warmasters and away you go. The two spurned and lost cultures of destruction banding together to survive in a new era.
Vince and Heywoah is the dose of extra sass I needed in my life. This needs to be a regular thing.
I love the new RoRs! I've been waiting for them to do cross-GA allies forever. As for the possible short shelf life... it's not like even entire armies are guaranteed to last anymore 😅
They’re extra nice because they’re pseudo-based around all the recent Stormbringer stuff. Lot of people just found lots of expansions for their armies which were formerly just random painting projects 👌
It's always nice when you have HeyWoah on, & not talk about MtG too much.
Also, Vince having a card of Doctor Doom in his wallet (over his wife) amuses me.
Thanks for the show--sorry I couldn't chat live with you guys!
Glad you enjoyed the show! It's fun to have HeyWoah on.
I go absolutely FERAL for a HeyWoah monologue. Dude could talk about self-raising flour for twenty minutes and his inflection and turn-of-phrase would still keep me on the edge of my seat.
Destruction absolutely should be the naturally violent state of the realms themselves resisting intrusion and occupation. If GW ever did anything with them, Bonesplitterz could have been a fantastic force-of-nature faction. Their little lore blurb explaining their disappearance states that some of them have gone to beat up incarnates in an attempt to call the world down after the Vermindoom. They could have returned as a faction of magic-crazed incarnate channellers, not only being a unique orruk faction but also showcasing even more quirks of the setting through its unique magic and/or wildlife.
I’d love to see Mega-Gargants be the ancient and wise sages of GA Destruction that the smaller races look up to for their insight into the nature of the Realms
To fix the Bad Moon: instead of existing on table quarters and moving on its path it can now exist in 4 locations (technically 5). Each location being the center of a table edge. It shines its light on that half of the table and the other is in Darkness. It starts on the center of the table effecting the whole table. At the start of the round roll off against your opponent, the winner deciding how to move the Bad Moon. The Bad Moon MUST move to an adjacent node, and a Gitz Player can move the Bad Moon to the Center if the won the roll (or won the roll and the roll was a 5+).
The moon now orbits around the board casting half in light and half in darkness and the Gitz player is actually feeling like they are chasing up be in the bad moon
Episodes like this are the reason I continuously tune in. Bullseye on so any things.
This is actually why Kruleboyz are my favourite concept to come out of AoS. Geedubs took a big risk deviating from the tried and true big dumb orc design with them and sadly I see them just be melted back down into the low effort creativity as the rest of destro.
Sadly I don't see this getting any better.... We'll see with the newest OW and GSG drop but I'm not expecting much.
Th overall effort from the company itself seems to be going in a low effort direction more and more imo.
Great episode, gents. 👊
Thank you, Vince, I'm not running Ironjawz to bring some dumb centaur!!!
aestyetically, i love the idea of mixing a few sylvaneth units into a nighthaunt army for a spooky haunted forest theme, but rules-wise? Yeah, not so much.
If they made the simple changes Heywoah suggested for Sons, I would windmill slam the “Buy Now” button on four mega gargants
a good part of the new AoS grotmas regiments are basicly a mix of the basis and premium content from the hachette stormbringer Abo. If you have the Abo you have now the chance to use them in some way without start a new army.
The giants have, in the actual setting, matrons, that are basically the shamans of the tribes, and keep the oral tradition alive. There you have a wizard giant.
We won't get a warscroll for that tho
Thank you both for this video!
Super (and very sad) state of affairs regarding destruction armies.
I love your ideas about SoB!!! GW should engage HeyWoah !!! :)
However, as long as units like Varanguards (to name but one) are able to kill 2 giants in 1 activation, having a fifth won’t change anything...
Given their life expectancy on the tables today, one may wonder how they have survived so far! Given their save, it's to believe that they have a baby skin and, at the slightest scratch, they will die of sepsis
An interesting addendum to this that I know 75% of your audience isn't interested in: For some of the reasons Heywoah identified at the 40min mark for why Destro is bad... Destruction is the absolute strongest GA in Warcry. Destruction's random stupid brutes just do more damage than everyone else's stupid brutes in Warcry, and it forms a core pillar of the game. This isn't necessarily a good thing, but it is a reasonable place for anyone frustrated by destro's mechanics in AOS to go and play their toys in a game where those toys do the maximum amount of work.
I'd rather that both games had non-bs Destruction armies/warbands, to be honest.
@Kroeghe I mean, yeah that's fair. It would be cool if every faction in every game were designed with an empathetic eye towards giving people a fun experience with their toys. I liked Vince's point (and he's made similar ones in other shows) that sometimes they have this subconscious association with certain factions that bleeds into the rules writing.
Destro in warcry is still designed to be big dumb scary, but for some reason the faction abilities just came in to be just as good as the abilities for other GA, which combined with the hitting power make them the strongest GA.
They joy I felt in the first moment of this episode is matched only by the sorrow I feel knowing it will not last forever. Love the Hey Woah shows!
Order: Protagonist
Chaos: Antagonist
Death: Deuteragonist
Destruction: NPC
I definitely agree that making pretty much all of Destruction "dumb" is a big problem. It is fine if all non-Brodd Sons are somewhat dumb and act as a force of nature. But Orruks, Ogors and Gitz should have clever leaders. With their own thoughts and motivations. They can love constant fighting while using sound tactics. See Khorne.
Speaking of Chaos: Ogors and Ironjaws can be tactically clever like Khorne, Kruleboyz can be tricky like Tzeentch and Gitz can be sneaky and scheming like Skaven. And only Sons keep a very straightforward, move and smash playstyle.
Bottom line: GW can keep most Destruction armies simpler and more Timmy-focused while still including interesting characters for the lore and interesting effects for the gameplay.
As an IJ player I haven't even played 4th ed yet. Maybe I'd have a good gaming experience, but from what I heard unless I play a specific build I'd have really bad game. I'm not bummed by losing, but by bad play experience. I'll either have to switch my main army or just keep playing other wargames...
Great show Vince! Heywoah is great guest as always!
Fun trivia, Who Framed Roger Rabbit was originally a script for the third Jacob Gittes movie but got repurposed after The Two Jakes flopped.
I think the first problem with this is that the definition of "fun" used through the conversation is too flexible. Sometimes you are meaning "fun derived from having a fair chance of winning (defined by sitting in the Goldilocks Zone)" and other times you just mean "you enjoy yourself playing with the army regardless of win chance". In a competitive game space the later is a distant second to the first. The first leads to the situation you have now with the giants - where the variation in units is so small.
The current situation with giants also hightlights the problem with your proposal - the more different they are the more players will just take the one deemed "best" relegating the others to the bench - even by the slimest of margins! Games like MtG defeat this by limiting availability (yes they can do this in AoS as well) and forcing more choices and possibly sacrifices in efficacy of the strategy (see the early edition Red Aggro success vs its later failing as the pool of "best" for control strategies improves.).
What a LEGENDARY introduction to the main subject. HeyWoah is God!
OMG I SAID THAT! about Gargants. Yes. 25 health. 400 points. They should also all be minimum rend 2 always. Damage 4 minimum always. They should not like being near each other so they don't ever get to dog pile on units. Forcing them to spread out. Make it so they hit each other if they're ever in a situation where there's no enemy unit nearby. D3 damage. They heal when they kill models. Like again, there's a well of creativity they are missing with Gargants
I had fun with the Trogg herd with the random elements.
Where is the whole on hit effects? That’s how I feel as an IJ against everyone who just straight up gets there’s.
The idea a new mic is going to stop Tom hitting it.
I think destruction suffers from the design team not having a clear conception of the theme and cannot get a balance between the menance they should represent and the comic elements. They sorted 40k orks in 3rd but have still slipped back a bit
I wanna sell a few things to you, these all piqued my interest haha
Nurgles Gift in a Darkoath army makes them super interesting. The maruaders deal mortals when they die, feed the wilderfiend and then pop out as a nurgling while being able to recur. Its going to be so fun and chaotic.
Thematically im partial to the lost song in a soulblight list. A living forest beset by a thick fog, obscurring the undead dire wolves and vampires lurking within. Its so gothic and bad ass. Im hyped to hobby a display piece up for that.
What do yall think?
I think a life GA could be super cool, but you’d HAVE to move Sylvaneth to Life
I want the Ravening Gnarloak from Warcry to be Ogors 3rd terrain piece. Or better yet a unit. It's a giant walking tree with a mouth; should be in Ogor Mawtribes.
Destruction should be forces of nature, with nature cycle like IDK. Units should ingest/take on the aspects of the realm like Chamon hard as steel or Ghyran heals each round.
If HeyWoah made Audiobooks I would buy them!
No Thanky-Or-Janky this year?
It will happen. :)
Why do you insist these regiments of renown will only be legal for such a short amount of time?
Because this isn't the first time we've seen content like this. Your best case is basically until the end of 4th. We've been down this road many, many times.
Very well said by heywhoah! Sadly GW just isn't interested in Destruction and as a result they are rarely allocating enough time/energy to write decent lore or rules for us.
Gitz have been oppressive for about 2 and a half years now so I disagree with this
It does hurt a bit that you ignored Bonesplitterz near completely. We are still an army.... for a little bit at least. Listening to you guys talk, did remind me of why I loved the army. Lore wise, they did have a higher purpose outside of random destruction. And that was to bring about the reunification of the Gorka Morka and a new Orruk golden age. Up until 3rd edition, they had multiple play styles and tricks you could pull off. The 3rd edition book is horrible. The index wasn't great either, as the internal balance was horrible. However it didn't hit has hard as the 3rd edition book. My list these days is basically Kragnos, backed up by heals, and the formation that turns off wards on enemy units in combat range.
1:56:22 unfortunately it seems GW misheard you and made the Kruleboyz like the rest of destruction.
The overall thrust of your argument is... Very similar to what went wrong with the color blue in Magic in the early years! Why blue was way too good and green was way too bad; the brute-force colors/factions are defined by their limitations, and designers are usually harsh on them, but the "smart" colors/factions are just allowed to do whatever, to have these qualitatively-insane and wacky effects, with very few checks on them. Your cards can just do whatever, because you're "the color of magic". And then later on, when you two describe the Tzeentch armies as being the "smart-person fantasy" of the army actually doing most of the work for you, just letting you decide at the last minute to do things, instead of requiring all the cleverness and planning from you, you just get to make the choice later... Well if that don't sound like blue decks in Magic! Blue mages think they're SO smart, holding up that mana and casting instant-speed card-draw at the end of the other player's turn, never having to commit! But their job is much-easier than that of regular decks; they just get to wait and see, to react! Their opponent has to make the more-meaningful decisions, more in-the-dark!
That is a really wonderful comparison, and I completely agree
I started the hobby a few weeks ago with Ogors Spearhead. Is it just a meta thing and they are ok to play or are they unplayable bad? I really like the Leadbelchers and the Frostlord looks sooo nice. Should i switch armies while i can or is it fine to stick with em?
They are okay to play, you aren't out of luck. :)
I would have preferes if Big Waagh came back through special Regiment of Renown exclusive to orruks. Like, if you are a Kruleboyz player, you could have the choice between a RoR centered around (and highlighting the features of) a ardboy boss, or a megaboss, or Tuskboss (not a weirdnob shaman, cause KBz already have shamans). If you are a Ironjawz player, you could have the choice between the already existing killabow and boltboyz, the breaka-boss and monstakillaz, or the soon to be hobgrot boss and hobgrots (for cheap chaff). Something like that...
Kruleboyz got a great glow-up from 3rd to 4th but agree with all the comments. The army are difficult to play, and so squishy. But... It is fun.
Would love some means to make dirty tricks more reliable. That would make the army competitive at the top table. Right now, they aren't.
I dont even know that it needs to go as far as chnaging the alliance. Just tone down the randomness and put in more "hearty" rules. Like a good theme for destruction especially Orruks and Ogors could be that they have alot of ignore modifiers rules. Megaboss on foot can make a unit of brutes ignore wound roll modifiers on a 2+. Ogors all have a 6+ ward because of their tough skin. There's just such a lack of creativity in destruction because they rely on the "random" theme rather than a more appropriate theme for the alliance. Destruction ARE forces of nature.
IN FACT. I'd be all for changing the Alliance name to Nature.
Order
Chaos
Death
Nature
That to me makes more sense. These are the the forces of nature. Even thiugh it does cause a BIT of a problem with alarielle. You can justify it away by saying she's the goddess of life, and she is focused on her people and specifically trees rather than being a FORCE of nature.
Maybe even Grand Alliance of Brutality. I dunno. Destruction isn't necessarily bad. They do just need to refocus and rebrand
Glad I found this channel after your appearnce on poorhammer.
Glad you found us!
Great stream! It would be cool if GW listened to at least some of what you two said. A girl can hope!
Love goblins but yes in AOS they don't seem so tricksy and old Warhammer fantasy and old has them made so well it's quite stunning
Kragnos is smart the novel about kragnos shows that
THey might want to tell the other writers who portray Kragnos about that in the books.
These regiments sound kinda sick actually. Why are ossiarch bone reapers fighting for cities of sigmar though??
They'll get that tithe wherever they can. ;)
Big agree on your suggestions for fixing the gameplay of Sons: Average 400 points per Mega with 30 health, 10 control, same damage output as they have now. Also, more interesting and diverse abilites for most of them.
Big disagree on your suggestions for changing their style and flavour of Sons: The European (not just British!) fairytale giants are a very good fit for both Warhammer and Destruction.
The issue with videos like this, to no fault of your own, is dat GW plans books YEARS in advance. Rules are written long before any feedback can reach them. Meaning that this video might see a chance at being applied to 5th edition at the earliest. And frankly, that sucks hard.
Could someone tell me qhere to find the win % ? Is kt a website? Blog? I didnt understand the name they memtionned? Warhammers? Or is it officially by warhammer?
Woehammer
Huh, Sylvaneth WOULD fit in with Destruction on the idea of the Realms fighting against order/civilization.
I guess it makes sense from a game pov to forcing army lists to go all in on specific subfactions, but I hate subfactions. Less so in obvious soup books, but still. I collect my army factions because they’re cool. I don’t want to split them. I don’t want skinks separate from saurus. If you’re writing the game to have swamp orcs to work as a different army faction to Ironjaws then make them separate factions already. Surely a subfactions should just add some flavor, not change the ingredient list completely.
I will also lobby for heywoah getting an avatar
Here's my idea of Destruction getting more evolved. Maybe the elite Destruction are meant to be a big civilisation that of gladiator like beings. maybe Orc like but have skin like stone in a sense and having maybe like titan like army . They are smart but in a brutal way . In a sense of Mad max but more rich along with big powerful gigantic creatures . I think Destruction should have really elite like beings but in a brutal way .
for faction size i think most armies should cap at 50 units max
My friends are getting into to AoS after March. I chose Sons of Behemat cause i already play Cult in 40k and i need less to paint. Love the goofy factor. How cooked am i?
You'll be fine, the changes this week were good, it's tough, but its fun.
Great discussion as always, however I don't agree with HeyWoah's introduction.
Having intelligence and complex personality is not necessary for great faction in Warhammer.
Let's look at 40k - both Orks and Tyranids function in the world as basically natural disasters. Some Ork Bosses do have their own plots and schemes in action, but it mostly comes down with wanting to have the best fight there is.
Tyranids have basically no lore - The Hive Mind may be highly inteligent, but I doubt we will ever its perspective or in-depth explanation.
Even sixth subfaction in Gloomspite Gitz sounds better than basing Destruction on some anime nonsense ;-)
Hot take: Sylvaneth should be a destruction army.
In honor of HeyWoah I am playing Everquest and listening
BIG show!
Could listen to HeyWoah for hours
Heywoah! Hey, alright.
Thumbs up for Zoolander reference 👍
I'm glad you liked it!
what does Farmer/prospector/Delivery mean?
A prospector is someone who goes out and gets you simple battle tactics so for example, it is generally fast cheap units that die quite easily that sit on the flanks and do take the flanks then they run back into the enemy territory and they take their land and so on late game if they still exist, maybe the act is chaff or just to be a little bit of objective control or objective threat something like that. Their prospectors because they get gold gold meaning points.
What bothers me the most about orruks is that they’ve inherited nothing about what made Orcs great in WHF or in 40k.
40k Orks are instinctively drawn to a particular clan. Place an ork from every clan together and they are clearly relatedx but are completely different. They retain a cohesive theme despite their differences. WHF Orc Warbands followed warbosses of different flavours with some genuinely interesting characters.
They should not fit into life/death/order/chaos. They should be the ultimate wildcard. Both predictable and unpredictable. Truly enigmatic. They’ve also long provided an incredibly rare thing in WH - humour. From doom divers to squigs, blood axes to blood bowl goblins, they’ve always had an air of humour about them. In 40k they can even will things into existence when enough of them believe something to be true.
What makes orruks dull is the different clans are too separate from another. Kruleboyz are so different to Ironjawz that they each have to have stand independently from one another, and their design isn’t strong enough to do that. 40k Evil Sunz don’t have to do that because they’re Orks first. Grimgor, Skarsnik and Azhag are all completely different characters but all part of the Greenskin horde.
GW differentiated the greenskins from one another in AoS but haven’t made the factions character strong enough to do that.