Short answer is, no. 6.5 does not make .308 obsolete. Just because it start out performing it in long range, but for literally every other situation, I’ll take the .308. Up close, medium range, shooting through cover, .308 runs the show. Short action 30-06 is never obsolete. NATO cartridge, found in every store including mom and pops delis that sell bait & ammo. If your game is 1000+ sure, take the 6.5 but that’s such a small part of the entire game. Plus barrel life is longer on the 308. All around cheaper to own.
Agreed. A few months ago, I was debating between the two calibers for my new deer rifle. After watching a bunch of videos on wind drift, gel block testing, etc. I decided to go with the .308. The 6.5 starts to shine at distances beyond 400 yards or so, but since my hunting range is 300 yards and in, I went with the .308 for it's superior (IMO) shorter range terminal ballistics.
It is one of, if not THE most popular and produced cartridge on the planet. The notion it could ever be made "obsolete" is not only laughable, it's stupid. A correct correlation would be "did the pistol make the sling shot obsolete? "
I'm not a 308 fan either, matching the 308 against a 6.5saum or prc would be more apples to apples. The saum wins by a long shot. This isn't opinion it's science.
6.5 only has 2 benefits. Super long range shooting and less recoil. 308 dominates price, availability, grain weight, barrel life…….ect. List goes on. 308 ain’t going anywhere.
Naw. .308 and 6.5CM ammo prices are about identical anymore. I work at a gun store and look at prices daily. Furthermore, for deer and midsized game, 6.5CM well out paces .308 in sales.
Versatility is in the 308s favor. Loads are factory available from 125 to 200 grains. Hand loading yields bear loads with 220s to varmint loads with 100 grain bullets. It's all in what you are after. If you are content in the 150-180 grain range, and plan on paper punching at distance is your main goal, the 6.5 is your gun. If you want more versatility and ability to use milsurp x51, the 308 wins. For two legged varmints, as mentioned in the video, both are more than sufficient, success is up to the shooter.
@@markweiderspon1812 i work as a firearms saleman and i sell ammunition daily. I have never ever seen a 125 grain .308 bullet come in my store. A .30 caliber 125 grain bullet would be so short it would destabalize very fast making it a much worse option that the 129 grain sweet spot for the 6.5 creedmoor. You can get some pretty heavy grain 6.5 creedmoor bullets but the reason why people choose the 6.5 is the exact opposite of what you just said. It is much better ballistically and the grain weight variety makes it perfect for anything from varmint hunting up to medium game and i know of videos on here of people dropping elk real quick with the 6.5. If you go based off of store shelf supply only you have a better mid ground grain weight in the 6.5 then with 308. If you want to hunt coyotes and not destroy the pelt and also have a rifle you can go deer hunting or bear hunting with the 6.5 is your perfect rifle. If you already own a 308 theres no need to get a 6.5 unless you just wanted the much better ballistics to shoot more accurately at long range stuff at like 550 yards and up where 6.5 is holding more energy and velocity than 308. If you dont have a rifle and are looking for one between the 308 and the 6.5, go 6.5. More than enough knockdown within 450 and past 550 you carry more velocity which means more energy and a much more stable projectile.
Man, the quality of your videos gets better and better. Great stuff. I binged all of your MK12 videos in preparation for my own PRI MK12 Mod H + OCM5. All of your advice has served me well. My local coyote population doesn’t know what hit them. And my watch dogs, goats, chickens and alpacas are all sleeping extra sound at night. Please get Micah back and Charlie on sometime!
30 minutes well spent. I want to thank you for your HONESTY. Hitting small targets at distance is HARD. It's not Hollywood. It's NOT what 85% of UA-camrs are saying. They are editing out the 30 misses and showing you the "first round impact" at 1500yds. There are few content creators that actually speak the truth. You are one of them. Subscribed for that reason alone.
in the army, I found that with my M 24, which was doing a half minute all day long. When it was raining lightly, I could get that thing out to 1200.. I never used bi Pods that was one of my rules. I always used a tunnel on the bottom of my ruck sack made out of 90 mile an hour tape and sleeping pad. That was the method taught in sniper school many years ago. You get a much cleaner movement out of the rifle than you do on a bipod. But the rain also damped the wind and gave you really clear visibility on wind. I found the 308 just doesn’t cut the wind very well if you have any wind, you’re inside 500 m with a 308. The 6.5 is better simply because the ballistic coefficient cut through the wind better.. but again in a slightly rainy environment, where the wind is effectively neutralized I was able to put 10 out of 10 rounds on an E-type at 1200 pretty consistently with a 308.
Had some boys from the 2nd 75th come to sniper school at Camp Pendleton. I think they had XM-21?? Anyway, the Marine Corps had to loan them M-40s to qualify. Past 600 yards, she just couldn't do it.
Obsolete? Nah. But does the 6.5cm do most things better? Yep. But, .308 is likely still better overall for things like domestic LE. The 6.5cm doesn't start outperforming .308 at normal domestic LE engagement distances enough to matter and .308 has significantly more barrel life which means lower long term costs to the agency/dept. The recoil difference isn't enough at close distances since you won't start spotting your own shots until 2-300yds (and that's with magnification turned down a bit) and really not very well until 400yds. Which again, is further than most any domestic agency will engage anyone. But, if you don't have a small budget and can afford more barrels and aren't sitting on a stockpile of ammo, once you start stretching it out, the better trajectory, better wind performance, and lower recoil make 6.5cm significantly better than .308. (20+ year .mil and LE and most of those years instructing on precision rifle. Started and still use .308....so not biased against the .308 like newer/younger people may be) Love your channel. Keep it up.
7:06 I love that no matter how serious the subject matter is, when a group of men get together that are all friends, our inner teenage boy comes out. I see it in these videos, and it happens with my group of friends in real life, too. ....Good Stuff!
Competitive PRS shooter here. 6.5CM is a better cartridge gaming(recoil and better wind resistances), and past 500yards. The big thing about shooting extreme long range is where does your cartridge go transonic. For my current setup that's around 1106 meters 6.5CM. Too 1100 meters is relatively easy. 1344 meters is the furthest I've hit. Tried 1675m and danced around the target all day but the wind was terrible. At one point a buddy was holding 12 MILs of wind. 308 is a FANTASTIC cartridge and generally better for most people due to better ballistics inside of 500 yards where most people will shoot. Cheaper and WAY better barrel life if you shoot A LOT.
@@aaronsanborn4291 168gr .308 ELDM has 8ft more drop at 1200yds than the 147gr ELDM in 6.5CM. That drop means decrease in velocity, which equates to more susceptibility to wind. the 147 is still supersonic just past a mile whereas the 168 goes trans-sonic at just beyond 1300yds. I've put more shooters on steel more repeatably at 1,000yds than any other caliber I own. I shoot 224 Valkyrie and 6mm BR up to 1,000 to work on wind calls because it's my weak spot like a lot of shooters, and I've got no hate for the 308, but if I had to try a 1 shot impact at 1,200 I'd reach for the 6.5.
@@claytonbruner1808 why do you need to shoot 1200 yards? It’s literally just lobbing the round at that distance. One step from anything and you miss every shot you take. Useless to shoot that far.
When people say the .308 is obsolete they are just talking about long range shooting out to 1000k for the most part. For most hunting from 0-500 the .308 is a great choice. There are just a lot of variables to know before really deciding on which but even that can be different from one person to the next. The big advantage that the 6.5 Creedmore has is that it can shoot the heavier 6.5mm bullets at the same MV as the .308 but with a much higher BC. The 6.5 Creed can shoot a 147g ELD with a BC of .697 at 2650-2750fps. The .308 shoots a 168g ELD with a BC of .523 at 2600-2700fps. MV depends on powder being used of course. You can go with a lighter bullet for the .308 but than you are getting even less BC. I personally won't use anything below .600 for long range shooting. If I am going deer hunting where my longest shot might be 400 yards than I am taking the .308. Long range shooting or taking deer in Kansas than I would take the 6.5 creed. If you are a deer hunter the .308 is a better choice. If you are wanting something for 1K than the 6.5 is a much better choice.
@cohesive3482 my point is that one can still use the brass and load match quality long range ammunition. Short of panic buying, there will be off the shelf and match ready made ammo as well as components to load your own match ammo.
I've literally been begging for someone to make a video like this. My prayers have been answered. Please test 77gr otm at like 800 yards on a dummy next pls
I learned and heard many times like Jason explaining to remove yourself from the rifle and let the rifle do what he can do you can hit the target. Also, Jason when asked if 308 is obsolete his opinion was practical and honest based on data history in warfare engagement yes 308 is more kill than any caliber combined in a war history. These two are super experienced and for sure their thought is a treasure.
i just bought myself a christmas gift... Savage 110 precision .308win with a leupold mk4 ... shot it today for the first time... hornady match bthp 178gr... shot consistantly 1min or less... a nice budget rifle/glass/rings for $3300
cracks me up when people say "dont try this at home"....lol whats the worst that could happen if you are not a professional? you miss the gel, just like they did.
“We’re literally trained professionals on a professional range”. Don’t try what at home? Don’t go shoot at your local range and smack targets at distance? My Howa 1500 does what these guys are doing for a fraction of the price. They aren’t doing anything special or cool, and if ole boy wants to be super tactical and survive in a SHTF situation, he’s gonna need to hit some more cardio
ya'll were short changing yourselves on the rifle/ammo setup here. The 308 with a shorter barrel and non match ammo left alot on the table for accuracy. The 6.5CM with a carbon fiber barrel gave you cooling issues. You blamed your difficulty at 1200 on the short action cartridges. That might be a viable complaint on 308, but not with 6.5CM. 6.5CM at 1200 still has less wind drift than 308 at 1000, and more energy. 6.5CM can do the job with a better rifle without trouble. Sincerely, a guy that has taken 6.5CM and 308 both out to 1 mile on targets 2MOA or less. These cartridges are capable of more than you think
I worked up a load on the new hornady 174 grain eld-VT pushing 2750 fps and a G1 bc of 573 and it’s still super sonic at 1200 yards. The right 308 load will still rock at that distance.
@@RoyJDew most likely, im running the TS15.5 powder and its not showing any pressure signs on brass or primers at all. and its also on a bolt action 26 inch barrel rifle
@chancelavin2493 The VT is a great varmint bullet. Probably not something to use on large game. The bullet is thin jacketed and designed to fragment on contact.
One thing I think is overlooked by many is the mounts. People will lavish all sorts of cash on a rifle and an optic, then use some junk base and mount for it, not torque it to spec or re-check torque and wonder why they dance all over the target. Get a proper base for the distance you will be shooting at from a reputable manufacturer. Torque it to spec with thredlock. Get matched rings and/or make sure they are perfectly aligned using a tool for that task, hand lap the rings if needed. Again torque to spec with threadlock and make sure the optic is perfectly level. The glass today is pretty solid, and so are most of the rifles. Where it usually goes wrong is when the two come together with cheap mounts and little attention to detail.
308 is not going anywhere as long as it's a nato round. Learning long range on a 308 is a great idea, build those skills then move to the creed's. Ammo is in many grains and bullets
308 is not NATO. You're applying the 7.62x51 NATO distinction to the commercial .308, similar but not actually the same. I do agree that the .308 is not going anywhere, it's far too popular a round, and far less expensive than 6.5CM both for cost per round and cost of barrel replacement.
@@keatonjorgensen8793 most range finder ratings are on a reflective surface. If you're ranging something less than ideal say a deer, you're looking at half what it says on the box.
Thanks for the affirmation too! You've shown the true challenge of putting a 7.62 round on target at a thousand yards in my pre-mag era behind a M40 A2. I get frustrated watching vids of civilians coming home from work, having some dinner and plop down and shoot out to 2000 yards in their back yard. 🙄. And you eluded to the BIGGER skillset of extracting after making the shot. Semper Fi, carry on.
As my mentor always said: "the caliber you perform best with is the right one for you". For me out of my current selection of many preategious long range calibers, it's 6.5 creed. I'm confident reloading 1/4 moa loads, I'm confident shooting over 1 km, and I'm confident hunting large game with it. That confidence can't be bought, you only get it through experience.
@@sdpy15 which big game are you reffering to? Red deer? Elk? Wild boars? Is 6.5 good enough for those cuz I'm looking to get a gun in 6.5 and I'm from Europe with red deer and large boars
@RodjoTheHunter If you are confident and accurate with the 6.5CM then it is enough! It all comes down to being capable with your shot placement! As with every size round/bullet type, it has given effective range you should try to stay within.
Good point on the giving your position away. Great mindset on the sniping concept. Great video, knowing your own equipment seems far more important than trivial data everyone discusses online.
I just wish ammo companies would come down on the 6.5 ammo. I did sell two .308 rifles, a bench bolt action build from scratch in 308 and an ar10 when i got my 6.5, but man the ammo prices suck even for plinking ammo. I reload but it aint a whole lot cheaper now days compared to milspec 308. Basically what i am saying is i regret selling my ar10, but i still love my 6.5 creed and wish ammo was cheap enough to do a 6.5 ar10 build. My 308 bench gun was just way too heavy and i didnt get into any matches, it didnt make sense to keep.
Building any AR-10 isn't overly pricey, I just completed my first AR-10 and only because my son built a .308 and felt the barrel was too heavy, so I bought his barrel and built one, it would have been less $ if I had just completed the 80% lower but I had issues with the drill press and the jigs didn't match the lower. I bought a Ballistic Advantage lower instead and just completed the rifle, I'm going to swap stocks with my son but he had some issues due to my buffer tube mounting. Still as a whole I expect I'm into the whole AR-10 build sub $600 and I also have a 6.5 Creedmore barrel and upper components to build a 6.5 upper for super reasonable. It just means one needs to find the best deals on parts. Now I only need a gas block and tube for my new 6.5 Creedmore upper...
@@ChanoLeyva-l8x .30-06 has 18% more case capacity (56gr vs 68gr). If you handload it and push it hard, you can hot them up to nearly factory .300WM performance. It's still an absolutely excellent caliber; anything .308 (an excellent caliber in of itself) can do, .30-06 does better.
Why because I’d a 20 year old kid that did a video on them because he was mad they wouldn’t sponsor them ? I hat about the vets that day it gave them purpose
@LastAmericanOutlaw it's false advertising. They do nothing as far as teaching you to learn "gun smithing". And they take money from vet loans as I understand. I understand you gotta make a living. Sponsors are hard to come by. I personally don't judge you and thank you for your service.
Great video guys. I enjoyed the long range ballistics testing and the conversation about both cartridges regarding viability. I haven't shot that far before but thank you for demonstrating that is not easy to hit targets at that distance.
Bought two DD5v4's in 6.5CM, re-barreled with Proof Research Carbon-Fiber prefits. They absolutely outclass my previous .308's to the point I retired and sold them all. They outshot all of my custom bolt actions in .308 as well as various .308 semi-autos in my armory. While I have not come close to peak round count on these barrels, one of my team members has easily surpassed the peak count, still shooting sub-moa so far with only a slight velocity loss.
I find that very hard to believe, you were probably using shit 308 ammo, with the high bc 30 cal ammo on the market today there’s not much a difference
I like how he stated “do i want to give away my position?” In today’s world it’s not just a sxs that makes it to you. The reality of it is that drones with thermal would find you anyway . Today’s warfare is evolving everyday. I like how he said realistically 5-600 yards is his comfort zone. THE veterans know realism and practicality vs wishful thinking.
Hey guys, I did a first shot/kill in the middle of a '57 Chevy hood (don't fret, it was a 4 door) at a mile with my 81mm mortar. Right tool, right job....lol. Love your show. WELCOME HOME. SGT DOUG, RECON, 101ST, RVN 68-69 LZ SALLY
I'm assuming that 57 was on a stateside arty training range as a target... and wasn't some kind of captured/repurposed NVA staff car in country... right?
That wasn't very long ago and that's apples to oranges. You're talking about a 60 year old 22 centerfire cartridge and a now obscure 6.8 experiment. The 308 and the 6.5 are at very least comparable. The 6.5 has been around since the 1890's. The 6.5 isn't just now better than a 308, it always has been.
@@jwalesoutlaw3294 6.5 really did take over, but I remember when Zack Smith did a take on the 260, 6.5 x 47, and the 65 Creedmoor and said the Creedmoor wouldn’t make it. Back I was a 6 x 47 shooter and I never thought it would make it.
I have multiple rifles of both calibers. For "my hunting" in NE Michigan (under 350 yrds) either is incredible with high quality factory ammo (Fed Premium/Hornady ELD-X, 8:33 etc ). Depends on your application but if you think the 308 is done (up to 500 yrds +) you need to do more research. At 300yrds to 500yrds if it's brown its down (no question for good shoot shooters). It's old and boring and it works.
My first observation is the difference in barrel lengths. You should run a comparison test with the same barrel lengths at a minimum, preferably the same make and model as well. But no cartridge will ever "replace" another. I hunt with a 6.8western, is that cartridge needed, not really, but it fills all my needs and works perfectly for my hunting style. Can my 7mm do all the 6.8western does, of course, did I sell my 7mm .......nope.
Thank you for making this video. Last year my rifle instructor got me shooting out to 800 yards with an 18 in Howa shooting 175 grain 308s. At the end of the course I was challenged with a question of how far I could shoot and consistently hit with money on the line. I called out 500 yards and glib when the metal rang out. I plan on taking out and getting dope on my 300 WM next.
What ammo were you using in the 308? Because I shoot competitively in king of 1 mile witha 308win. 1200 yd should be running you about. 15/ 16 mills up
Anytime these comparisons come up the first thing to talk about is the projectile. This looks like a 175 smk in the 308 and I’m betting a 140 eld-m in the 6.5. A 169 smk or 185 Berger in the 308 probably could’ve gone a good ways.
I took a 178bthp hornady goin 2158fps from a 16” dd5v3 to 1k and hit 1st rd usin magnitospeed and app. 3x15 viper 58moa. Dialed and held whole reticle. One time but my first trip out with 1k available and to hit with 16” gasser first rd was somethin. Looked like a rainbow
@@K-bob_45 no but I was trying to to duplicate the white bx 178gr bthp match with 47gr of superformance. Factory ones I printed 3”@520 on my full size and swung over and got a 20oz first shot so I keep a bx of every good ammo I find put back and I’m sure most have stashed way more but I have 12-14 .308 loads and 10 or so 6.5prc and that many .223 also which shot few .5”er’s 16” doublestar plain ol carbine 3x9 Nikon. 40gr v max 3390-3400fps. 55gr blitz/gameking both round 3100. Love makin and testin rounds more than breathin air I think.
@@K-bob_45 also was before I had a crono and just went off pressure signs and shot till I got good groups and that ended up bein slowern a night in jail.
@@charlesmullins3238 yeah I’m not sure superformance is ideal in that application. They used to recommend it only in rifle length semi autos. I think I’d try something quicker like H4895 or maybe Tac if you like the ease of loading ball powder. Ultimately the rifle will tell you what it wants. I’d think you should be able to get ~2450 from a 16” with a 178 without trying too hard
Great video, guys. 308 will always be my choice for an all around go to caliber. The only one i dont have is a bolt gun in 308, which i plan on changing soon. Im good with being able to shoot 500 yds. That's how long my driveway is from my front porch. 😅
The 6.5 may stay supersonic longer and thus have better terminal ballistics but it is not any sort of viable replacement for the ,308 which has been and still is used effectively at 1000 plus meters on plenty of targets...
Only use 3 Rounds 308 556 are my main Entrees and 762x39s are just laying in wait in case also to Throw Lead Long you need to know brass primers powder bullet and build the load data for that 1 barrel twist gas weather elevation it can drive you crazy and then After months an months ya drop a 100 plus rounds to find that’s sweet spot and then Boom or Miss but still more fun than riding a bar stool
Idk why people are so wanting to compare the CM to the .308. There are many cartridges that out perform the .308 at long range and the CM. And most of these cartridges are over 50 years old now.
The rifles and glass have become cheaper and better, but the biggest difference is rangefinders and ballistic calculators. 10 years ago having a range finder capable of an accurate read at 1200 yards cost more than your whole gun today. Something no one mentions
I hunted with 6.5 in Kodiak, Alaska for a week. I immediately sold the rifle after. Made 2 through shots (sub 300m) that resulted in stalks that were grueling (for an ethical hunter). 308 dumps so much more energy into the target, and I believe that makes for a more effective round. Also a GWOT vet, OIF 06-08 in Mosul, Iraq. Route clearance.
You are spot on. Regardless of where impact is the 308 it’s a lot harder than the 6.5. People say 1500lbs is necessary to make ethical kills. That means the 6.5 stops at 400 and the 308 is 550 with what I load.
@LastAmericanOutlaw no he doesnt. Hes bringing light to all the veteran, social media liars and bullshit training....and he was doing it before the boys at Antihero
Bro, that’s my friend, I’ve known Matt for a long time, I’m friends with a lot of Matt friends. When I say Matt needs to calm down, he needs to calm down. Is he right about a lot of stuff he says yes but he still needs to calm down. The future of our gun laws, our generations that will be operators later, matter from guys like him, pulling them up and out of the liberalism, but when you be little people and you constantly fight them, that doesn’t work
Bruh I am a 6.5 creedy person especially 6.5 PRC junky and this video is awesome. One day I will get a 308 rifle but until then 6.5 will be my go ammo for long distance.
@@Jupiterxice I honestly have almost every weight .264 from 95 to 156 and 140 is baby bear but I’ll say 130tmk@3220 is my 2nd behind that 95 unless I’m shootin somethin big. Almost went through 3/4” mild@200yrds with those 130s. 140vld bout the same depth divit
I've always said a hit at 600 or 700 with .556 and a good projectile you're out of the fight. You might live but you're hurting. Whitefeather said in his interview, "one shot, two at the most, and you're out of there". Great book and I highly recommend it.
I always get a kick out of the 6.5 vs 308. Everyone tests a 140gr6.5 vs a 180gr 308 You are going to have a big difference when the bullet weighs more. I would like to see someone test same size bullets and with a 308 not hard to load faster rounds if needed. And it ends up not being that far off from each other. But you have the option to run heavy bullets or light bullets when needed with the 308. And can be done with a shorter barrel on the 308 :)
@@dylanowens70I don’t necessarily mind the match grade. But they should both be similar bullet weight and load style. I can reload my 308 to shoot hotter if needed. And use a smaller bullet to get similar or better compared to factory 6.5. It is just all fun in the end. I currently have my 308 with a custom 16” barrel and I can load the rounds to shoot the same as it was when it had the 20” barrels on it with factory ammo. :)
So according to this test no one should ever take an 800 yard shot at game. My two questions are - "at what distance do y'all think one can guarantee a kill shot?" and "at what distance do y'all think is the farthest ethical distance to try and take a kill shot on game?"
Realistically, 400 yards on game is the edge of practicality for reliably hitting the animal, let alone recovering it (bad hit, disappearing into brush, etc.). If you can't get within 1/4 mile of your animal, you just flat out suck at hunting.
@@Borderline5440 I was just wondering because I have never shot past 50 yards to date. I have always stalk hunted within the Big Thicket in south east Texas myself. When I was 16 I took my first buck at 40 yards. He was a 6 point. Stalking I have gotten within 10 feet of deer twice. One was 6 or 8 point buck and the other one a doe. I got the doe one shot between the eyes, but my 30 cal M1 Carbine was out of battery when I pulled the trigger on the buck. I had his forehead lined up in my sights as well. Imagine my surprise when nothing happened. The buck was long gone before I could figure out what happened. I ended up stalking him 2 miles for nothing. I am thinking about getting an AR-10 in 45 Raptor which can shoot point blank out to 200 yards. And at that distance the wind makes very little difference. I probably would never get a clear shot that far but it would be nice to know I could if I wanted to. Talk about sucking at hunting - people that set traps are trappers - people that set out bait are baiters - and people that use dogs are basically low life puppies. And not the first one of them are hunters in my book! They're all on the lazy side letting the bait/traps/dogs do the work for them. There ought to be a law, yet I suppose most people would never be able to get a deer otherwise.
In Europe its generally ill advised & actually frowned upon to shoot at any game past 200 Mtrs! Meanwhile, here in western 🇨🇦 watching how most shooters here at our local gun range are already struggling, while shooting from a solid benchrest and trying hitting any of the steel discs at 235 yards, then I’d say even 400 yards is way out of most hunters league; especially considering in any live hunting scenarios there are no shooting benches around!
@@thepiedpiper-i7x Although the 45 Raptor is touted to be able to shoot point blank out to 200, I figured - according to the Ballistic Trajectory Calculator - 165 yards would be plenty far enough for that rifle. That is if I the line of sight starts at 1.5" above bore, come 10 yards the bullet would be 1' below line of sight. Then at 33 yards it would be spot on. At 90 yards it would be 1" above line of sight. At 143 again spot on. And finally out at 165 it would be 1" below line of sight. This would make a 2" point blank range window out to 165 yards. Throw in a 1" give or take at that distance and I would have a 4" point black hit ratio. And a 10 to 15 mile an hour wind would not throw the bullet of more than 3" one way or the other at this distance, whereby I should be able to put any and all bullets in a 6" circle without question at 165 Yards with light winds. Which would include my messing up a little here and there. If I add one of them scopes that call the distance and automatically adjust a red dot for elevation plus makes a windage call I should have no problems making 150 yard shots all day long. Being I have always hunted with iron-sights this would be a whole new world for me. Like American Outlaw sad in the video us older people need new ways to help keep us out there in the woods, if nothing more that sitting on the tailgate waiting for a deer to wonder within scoping sight.
Neither caliber is obsolete. I prefer the Creedmoor because recoil. The load I use still has 1200ft pounds of impact energy at 600 yards. Pluses and minuses for both.
I love that Hornady match ammo. (140 gr if I remember right). My custom built 6.5 CM shoots consistent 10” groups at 1000. Past that, you start seeing the inconsistencies in the factory ammo, though. The few shooting comps I’ve been involved with, the .308 is great to about 7-800 yards then it starts gettin a bit squirrely. Maybe ammo for it has gotten a bit better since then, however. Plus we are almost always dealing with a 7-20 mph crosswind so that doesn’t help the .308 either. Regardless it’s still a great round. Wouldn’t ever say it’s obsolete!
@ SDI is a scam promising education in Gunsmithing that will lead to a career. The industry for the majority does not respect SDI. Main reason machining and technical aspects of gunsmithing are best learned in person. There are credible gunsmithing schools such as Lassen Community College, Colorado School of Trade and a few others. Gunsmithing is a skill that takes discipline learned in person. No short cuts. SDI means to broaden their reach by sponsoring guntubers. Take their money and run with it bro, but it’s not a good look.
I am coming into this having chosen 6.5 CM over .308 because I bought into the hype, and somewhat regretting it because I don’t reload and shit ain’t cheap. Let’s see how this goes!
I checked Cabela's for price comparison. Browning, Savage and others have the same price on the firearm. Ammo price for Norma Whitetail 140 grain(my Savage BA10 Stealth and Axis II like this round) and Norma 308 in 150 grain are the same price. Also, i have found that Academy is usually about equal in price on the ammo.
My long range gun is my T/C encore pro hunter 300 win mag bull barrel and a banish 30 gold. I have Leopold on it. Reloading my own ammo really tightened my groupings up.
6.5 was designed to shoot at objects over a long range. Hence why it shoots flatter and is less affected by the wind. 308 is meant for short distances and packs a heavier punch at the shorter ranges due to it being a heavier bullet. Hence why it is still suggested you use 308 when hunting because most distances that you are shooting an animal at like deer is 100 yards. Why use a lighter ammo that is built for shooting at 1200 yards...
I had a Remington 40X in 6.5 Rem Mag. It made a believer out of me for long range shooting. That said the .308 is absolutely not dead. You have a smorgasbord of different bullets on your plate. Everything from 110 gr to 220 gr.
308 will survive 100 Mike Jones divorces. I’m being savage on the stupid. Leave 6.5CM to what it was made for. Bench rest competitions. Not combat. Just like leave Mike Jones away from women or there will be more baby mommas than the entire projects combined.
Very informative video I have several 308 guns. I'll keep them thank you. When I got into this kind of shooting 6.5 CM was pretty new. I got the 308 because it's been here and ammo is plentiful so I'll keep what I got. The main thing for me affordability!!!
Don’t know what country you live in but 6.5 has been at the same price point as .308 / 7.62 NATO consistently for the past 2-3 years (at least) here in the states. I’ve also never been inside a store that sells ammo and they didn’t have one while carrying the other. So that statement about it being harder to find is 100% false. The funny thing is that all this information is easily googleable. It’s almost like you fudds stay talking out of your ass. Go figure. Lastly, how are you going to call 6.5 a FAD when our military is literally in the process of transitioning to it and ditching the .308. Not to mention 6.5 is becoming more and more preferred in the PRS crowd.
Longest running fad I've seen, gramps. Maybe you should also look at the cost of 175gr SMKs, because I can load match grade 6.5 far cheaper than that that. 168s struggle past 800. There's a reason 308 is a handicap class for PRS.
It's advantageous to immediately eject your cartridge after each shot taken while sighting in and leave your bolt open. It may sound unimportant or picky but it allows maximum heat removal from the barrel in between shots other than using a barrel heat remover. Remember, there's no such thing as"Cooling" the barrel. There's only heat removal. The lower the temperature of the barrel while sighting in your weapon, the more accurate your shots will be.
I know when I was in the military, with a burnt out 1992 M240B, I managed a first shot 2,200 meter 8rnd burst hit on a 3x3 ft target using a starlight scope (I don't know the generation, but I know it was pretty fuzzy picture. We were doing night familiarization training in the USN Seabees). There was enough time delay with the 7.62x51 that I could actually spot and hear my own shots. Extremely long story short, there were probably a lot of variables that helped keep such a tight group at that range, especially since the target was at the bottom of the 1.5x power scope. So, Yeah, 6.5 may do better in some degrees, but 308 won't be phased out for a long time, let alone it's weaker brother 7.62x51.
On paper 6.5 looks good but in reality .308 has more energy and momentum out past 600. MAX DEER RANGE: 6.5/500: .308/580: 300 Win Mag/860. 300 Norma for ELR.
With potential near peer adversaries adopting body armor in greater numbers , this is having a effect on the decision to go from 5.56 to .308 and 6.5 .
@@MilesLong556x69as I understand it, as any bullet slows under the speed of sound it can begin to yaw (de stabilize). I don’t know anything about destabilizing.
@@MilesLong556x69 As a bullet looses speed, it goes from super sonic speed (+1125.33fps), to transonic ( a zone between 1352fps and 900fps)... when a bullet is in transonic flight, it is the most turbulent, it will yaw and pitch as little mach ripples*(i guess is what youd call them) form in uneven layers around the bullet. As it slows to subsonic speed, those ripples disapear and the bullet is aboe to once again stabolize. *pardon my horrific grammer im on a busted phone.
Short answer is, no. 6.5 does not make .308 obsolete. Just because it start out performing it in long range, but for literally every other situation, I’ll take the .308. Up close, medium range, shooting through cover, .308 runs the show. Short action 30-06 is never obsolete. NATO cartridge, found in every store including mom and pops delis that sell bait & ammo. If your game is 1000+ sure, take the 6.5 but that’s such a small part of the entire game. Plus barrel life is longer on the 308. All around cheaper to own.
More wind drift on .308, less correction on 6.5 cm. I have both and shoot long range. 6.5 every day. Better yet is 7mm PRC.
@ go read my comment again.
@@samadams9557 my sentaments exactly... Agreed... 308 for Tha win
Agreed. A few months ago, I was debating between the two calibers for my new deer rifle. After watching a bunch of videos on wind drift, gel block testing, etc. I decided to go with the .308. The 6.5 starts to shine at distances beyond 400 yards or so, but since my hunting range is 300 yards and in, I went with the .308 for it's superior (IMO) shorter range terminal ballistics.
Exactly.
30Hate will never be obsolete.
Exactly 💯
Not until laser pew pews arrive.
It is one of, if not THE most popular and produced cartridge on the planet. The notion it could ever be made "obsolete" is not only laughable, it's stupid. A correct correlation would be "did the pistol make the sling shot obsolete? "
I'm not a 308 fan either, matching the 308 against a 6.5saum or prc would be more apples to apples. The saum wins by a long shot. This isn't opinion it's science.
It is absolutely obsolete. Is it still practical and decently effective as a long range round? Yea. I say this as a 308 enjoyer.
Is .308 obsolete @ 1200 yards ? NOPE. It simply changes it's name to 300 Win Mag.
Agreed
Yep.
... that would make it obsolete
@@theblockyrocker9060 It's a terrible comparison. It's like asking if 17HMR has made 22LR obsolete @ 500 yards.
I'm a 300 win mag kind of shooter
The farther out the max power load good muzzle break to tame it down.
6.5 only has 2 benefits. Super long range shooting and less recoil. 308 dominates price, availability, grain weight, barrel life…….ect. List goes on. 308 ain’t going anywhere.
Naw. .308 and 6.5CM ammo prices are about identical anymore. I work at a gun store and look at prices daily. Furthermore, for deer and midsized game, 6.5CM well out paces .308 in sales.
When I saw my Walmart stocks more 6.5 than 308, I took a serious look at 6.5. And I went out and bought one. Hornady ELD bullets are sharp.
Versatility is in the 308s favor. Loads are factory available from 125 to 200 grains. Hand loading yields bear loads with 220s to varmint loads with 100 grain bullets.
It's all in what you are after. If you are content in the 150-180 grain range, and plan on paper punching at distance is your main goal, the 6.5 is your gun. If you want more versatility and ability to use milsurp x51, the 308 wins.
For two legged varmints, as mentioned in the video, both are more than sufficient, success is up to the shooter.
@@markweiderspon1812 i work as a firearms saleman and i sell ammunition daily. I have never ever seen a 125 grain .308 bullet come in my store. A .30 caliber 125 grain bullet would be so short it would destabalize very fast making it a much worse option that the 129 grain sweet spot for the 6.5 creedmoor. You can get some pretty heavy grain 6.5 creedmoor bullets but the reason why people choose the 6.5 is the exact opposite of what you just said. It is much better ballistically and the grain weight variety makes it perfect for anything from varmint hunting up to medium game and i know of videos on here of people dropping elk real quick with the 6.5. If you go based off of store shelf supply only you have a better mid ground grain weight in the 6.5 then with 308. If you want to hunt coyotes and not destroy the pelt and also have a rifle you can go deer hunting or bear hunting with the 6.5 is your perfect rifle. If you already own a 308 theres no need to get a 6.5 unless you just wanted the much better ballistics to shoot more accurately at long range stuff at like 550 yards and up where 6.5 is holding more energy and velocity than 308. If you dont have a rifle and are looking for one between the 308 and the 6.5, go 6.5. More than enough knockdown within 450 and past 550 you carry more velocity which means more energy and a much more stable projectile.
@@ratedredneck96 Very helpful, thanks!
I have a very light weight tikka 18 inch 308 supressed that makes consistent impacts at 800 yards on a 12 inch target. That’s good enough for me.
Cause it’s a flippin tikka 😂 no look quick scopes out to a mile, never misses.
@@goinhot9133 I mean, there are plenty of rifles that will do that off the shelf if you get a good one.
What scope?
@@goinhot9133is tikka good?
@@powskier March 3-24
Man, the quality of your videos gets better and better. Great stuff. I binged all of your MK12 videos in preparation for my own PRI MK12 Mod H + OCM5. All of your advice has served me well. My local coyote population doesn’t know what hit them. And my watch dogs, goats, chickens and alpacas are all sleeping extra sound at night.
Please get Micah back and Charlie on sometime!
30 minutes well spent.
I want to thank you for your HONESTY.
Hitting small targets at distance is HARD. It's not Hollywood. It's NOT what 85% of UA-camrs are saying. They are editing out the 30 misses and showing you the "first round impact" at 1500yds.
There are few content creators that actually speak the truth. You are one of them.
Subscribed for that reason alone.
@@neilb1619 thanks brother. Appreciate that very much.
in the army, I found that with my M 24, which was doing a half minute all day long. When it was raining lightly, I could get that thing out to 1200.. I never used bi Pods that was one of my rules. I always used a tunnel on the bottom of my ruck sack made out of 90 mile an hour tape and sleeping pad. That was the method taught in sniper school many years ago. You get a much cleaner movement out of the rifle than you do on a bipod. But the rain also damped the wind and gave you really clear visibility on wind. I found the 308 just doesn’t cut the wind very well if you have any wind, you’re inside 500 m with a 308. The 6.5 is better simply because the ballistic coefficient cut through the wind better.. but again in a slightly rainy environment, where the wind is effectively neutralized I was able to put 10 out of 10 rounds on an E-type at 1200 pretty consistently with a 308.
Had some boys from the 2nd 75th come to sniper school at Camp Pendleton. I think they had XM-21?? Anyway, the Marine Corps had to loan them M-40s to qualify. Past 600 yards, she just couldn't do it.
Obsolete? Nah. But does the 6.5cm do most things better? Yep.
But, .308 is likely still better overall for things like domestic LE. The 6.5cm doesn't start outperforming .308 at normal domestic LE engagement distances enough to matter and .308 has significantly more barrel life which means lower long term costs to the agency/dept.
The recoil difference isn't enough at close distances since you won't start spotting your own shots until 2-300yds (and that's with magnification turned down a bit) and really not very well until 400yds. Which again, is further than most any domestic agency will engage anyone.
But, if you don't have a small budget and can afford more barrels and aren't sitting on a stockpile of ammo, once you start stretching it out, the better trajectory, better wind performance, and lower recoil make 6.5cm significantly better than .308.
(20+ year .mil and LE and most of those years instructing on precision rifle. Started and still use .308....so not biased against the .308 like newer/younger people may be)
Love your channel. Keep it up.
.308 till I die!
🤦♂️
Just to be clear if you hit a human size target at 1000 a .308 or 6.5 is absolutely stopping whatever nefarious sheit they were doing
@@jacobstevens-lu5ue Not sure why there was any clarity needed? Spoiler alert....bullets hurt when they hit you.
@@Paul-q3m7k Truth hurts.
7:06 I love that no matter how serious the subject matter is, when a group of men get together that are all friends, our inner teenage boy comes out. I see it in these videos, and it happens with my group of friends in real life, too. ....Good Stuff!
Competitive PRS shooter here. 6.5CM is a better cartridge gaming(recoil and better wind resistances), and past 500yards. The big thing about shooting extreme long range is where does your cartridge go transonic. For my current setup that's around 1106 meters 6.5CM. Too 1100 meters is relatively easy. 1344 meters is the furthest I've hit. Tried 1675m and danced around the target all day but the wind was terrible. At one point a buddy was holding 12 MILs of wind. 308 is a FANTASTIC cartridge and generally better for most people due to better ballistics inside of 500 yards where most people will shoot. Cheaper and WAY better barrel life if you shoot A LOT.
😂 whatever you say man bun
@@aaronsanborn4291 168gr .308 ELDM has 8ft more drop at 1200yds than the 147gr ELDM in 6.5CM. That drop means decrease in velocity, which equates to more susceptibility to wind. the 147 is still supersonic just past a mile whereas the 168 goes trans-sonic at just beyond 1300yds. I've put more shooters on steel more repeatably at 1,000yds than any other caliber I own. I shoot 224 Valkyrie and 6mm BR up to 1,000 to work on wind calls because it's my weak spot like a lot of shooters, and I've got no hate for the 308, but if I had to try a 1 shot impact at 1,200 I'd reach for the 6.5.
@@claytonbruner1808 why do you need to shoot 1200 yards? It’s literally just lobbing the round at that distance. One step from anything and you miss every shot you take. Useless to shoot that far.
@@claytonbruner1808 still going to miss unless your target stands completely still
@@benknown1420 "Why do you need x" is the most stupid question to ask about anything. You don't NEED 99% of the things that you prioritize in life.
Watching that shooting bench wobble was driving me nuts
It moved a lot
That's easily adding about 12 inches of variance at 1000.
When people say the .308 is obsolete they are just talking about long range shooting out to 1000k for the most part. For most hunting from 0-500 the .308 is a great choice. There are just a lot of variables to know before really deciding on which but even that can be different from one person to the next. The big advantage that the 6.5 Creedmore has is that it can shoot the heavier 6.5mm bullets at the same MV as the .308 but with a much higher BC. The 6.5 Creed can shoot a 147g ELD with a BC of .697 at 2650-2750fps. The .308 shoots a 168g ELD with a BC of .523 at 2600-2700fps. MV depends on powder being used of course. You can go with a lighter bullet for the .308 but than you are getting even less BC. I personally won't use anything below .600 for long range shooting. If I am going deer hunting where my longest shot might be 400 yards than I am taking the .308. Long range shooting or taking deer in Kansas than I would take the 6.5 creed. If you are a deer hunter the .308 is a better choice. If you are wanting something for 1K than the 6.5 is a much better choice.
Lake city armory churns the 308 out faster than the mini guns can fire them. The answer is no to obsolescence
Sure but it’s 3-4moa. Not accurate enough for DMR/sass ranges.
@cohesive3482 my point is that one can still use the brass and load match quality long range ammunition. Short of panic buying, there will be off the shelf and match ready made ammo as well as components to load your own match ammo.
I've literally been begging for someone to make a video like this. My prayers have been answered. Please test 77gr otm at like 800 yards on a dummy next pls
They already done this to 1000 yards
I learned and heard many times like Jason explaining to remove yourself from the rifle and let the rifle do what he can do you can hit the target. Also, Jason when asked if 308 is obsolete his opinion was practical and honest based on data history in warfare engagement yes 308 is more kill than any caliber combined in a war history. These two are super experienced and for sure their thought is a treasure.
It was great seeing you. It’s been too long. 🙏
What's he do? He professes The Truth ✝️
Thanks for hanging out !
@@brandonm6052🙏
Great stuff as always.
@@Therealmathilda🙏
i just bought myself a christmas gift... Savage 110 precision .308win with a leupold mk4 ... shot it today for the first time... hornady match bthp 178gr... shot consistantly 1min or less... a nice budget rifle/glass/rings for $3300
That's considered "budget" to you?
@@col.cottonhill6655 in the precision world... Absolutely
@@brandonseals6732 savage 110 is a great gun. People complain about the action being clunky, but they are exceptionally accurate.
@@col.cottonhill6655if "budget" is inyour vocabulary then this hobby isnt for you. Sorry bub. You can make do with less but there is no secret sauce.
You are going to wish you got a 6.5 unless you just plan on hunting with it.
cracks me up when people say "dont try this at home"....lol whats the worst that could happen if you are not a professional? you miss the gel, just like they did.
Right
I'm living proof that you don't need to be a professional at a professional range to do what they did....1140 yards. Laughed at his lame statement.
“We’re literally trained professionals on a professional range”. Don’t try what at home? Don’t go shoot at your local range and smack targets at distance? My Howa 1500 does what these guys are doing for a fraction of the price. They aren’t doing anything special or cool, and if ole boy wants to be super tactical and survive in a SHTF situation, he’s gonna need to hit some more cardio
This was pretty bad shooting.. “Professional” that can’t hit 600 in the first shot.. 😳
Guys I m pretty sure he was talking about having a team out by the target spotting the impacts. That's dangerous as you can imagine.
ya'll were short changing yourselves on the rifle/ammo setup here. The 308 with a shorter barrel and non match ammo left alot on the table for accuracy. The 6.5CM with a carbon fiber barrel gave you cooling issues. You blamed your difficulty at 1200 on the short action cartridges. That might be a viable complaint on 308, but not with 6.5CM. 6.5CM at 1200 still has less wind drift than 308 at 1000, and more energy. 6.5CM can do the job with a better rifle without trouble.
Sincerely, a guy that has taken 6.5CM and 308 both out to 1 mile on targets 2MOA or less. These cartridges are capable of more than you think
Useless shooting that far. Unless your target stands still you’ll never hit anyone
@@benknown1420 far more uses for guns than shooting at people
I worked up a load on the new hornady 174 grain eld-VT pushing 2750 fps and a G1 bc of 573 and it’s still super sonic at 1200 yards. The right 308 load will still rock at that distance.
Exactly, most of the 6.5 needmoor fans don’t get this, I’d bet that load stays super to almost 1400
The load you are working with is beyond the SAAMI pressure limits for the .308. However, your ballistics are accurately calculated.
@@RoyJDew most likely, im running the TS15.5 powder and its not showing any pressure signs on brass or primers at all. and its also on a bolt action 26 inch barrel rifle
@chancelavin2493 The VT is a great varmint bullet. Probably not something to use on large game. The bullet is thin jacketed and designed to fragment on contact.
@@RoyJDew yep! i only use it for long range target shooting. hence the Vartmit/Target name of it.
One thing I think is overlooked by many is the mounts. People will lavish all sorts of cash on a rifle and an optic, then use some junk base and mount for it, not torque it to spec or re-check torque and wonder why they dance all over the target. Get a proper base for the distance you will be shooting at from a reputable manufacturer. Torque it to spec with thredlock. Get matched rings and/or make sure they are perfectly aligned using a tool for that task, hand lap the rings if needed. Again torque to spec with threadlock and make sure the optic is perfectly level. The glass today is pretty solid, and so are most of the rifles. Where it usually goes wrong is when the two come together with cheap mounts and little attention to detail.
I agree. Not sure what the best is but I’ve had good luck with the DNZ one piece.
308 is not going anywhere as long as it's a nato round. Learning long range on a 308 is a great idea, build those skills then move to the creed's. Ammo is in many grains and bullets
308 is not NATO. You're applying the 7.62x51 NATO distinction to the commercial .308, similar but not actually the same. I do agree that the .308 is not going anywhere, it's far too popular a round, and far less expensive than 6.5CM both for cost per round and cost of barrel replacement.
I enjoyed this video! Thank you! It’s always nice to see other long range shooters discuss with honesty.
A quarter mil? Tenths, man. Tenths.
Not knowing the range to the target with a $3,000 range finder on the gun is...something.
Yeah I have a Vortex rangefinder and it won't range half the distance it's stated to range.. But hey lifetime warranty 😂
@@keatonjorgensen8793 most range finder ratings are on a reflective surface. If you're ranging something less than ideal say a deer, you're looking at half what it says on the box.
@@deathrider1579 thanks I'm aware of this
Even worse, that's a $10,000 range finder lol....
It could have something to do with the rounds going trans-sonic causing bullet instability.
The answer is 308 is still what everything is tested it against. Enough said
Thanks for the affirmation too! You've shown the true challenge of putting a 7.62 round on target at a thousand yards in my pre-mag era behind a M40 A2. I get frustrated watching vids of civilians coming home from work, having some dinner and plop down and shoot out to 2000 yards in their back yard. 🙄. And you eluded to the BIGGER skillset of extracting after making the shot. Semper Fi, carry on.
As my mentor always said: "the caliber you perform best with is the right one for you".
For me out of my current selection of many preategious long range calibers, it's 6.5 creed. I'm confident reloading 1/4 moa loads, I'm confident shooting over 1 km, and I'm confident hunting large game with it. That confidence can't be bought, you only get it through experience.
Your answer is correct Sir, it’s all about your own experience, great answer!!!!
@@sdpy15 which big game are you reffering to? Red deer? Elk? Wild boars? Is 6.5 good enough for those cuz I'm looking to get a gun in 6.5 and I'm from Europe with red deer and large boars
@RodjoTheHunter If you are confident and accurate with the 6.5CM then it is enough! It all comes down to being capable with your shot placement! As with every size round/bullet type, it has given effective range you should try to stay within.
@@micheallong3115 thanks!
@RodjoTheHunter in North America, so deer, bear, and elk. I've heard of people taking moose with it, but I still prefer 30-06 for those.
Good point on the giving your position away. Great mindset on the sniping concept. Great video, knowing your own equipment seems far more important than trivial data everyone discusses online.
I just wish ammo companies would come down on the 6.5 ammo. I did sell two .308 rifles, a bench bolt action build from scratch in 308 and an ar10 when i got my 6.5, but man the ammo prices suck even for plinking ammo. I reload but it aint a whole lot cheaper now days compared to milspec 308. Basically what i am saying is i regret selling my ar10, but i still love my 6.5 creed and wish ammo was cheap enough to do a 6.5 ar10 build. My 308 bench gun was just way too heavy and i didnt get into any matches, it didnt make sense to keep.
At my local gun shop, it’s $1 a round, seller and belliot.
Supply and demand is a thing dude.
Building any AR-10 isn't overly pricey, I just completed my first AR-10 and only because my son built a .308 and felt the barrel was too heavy, so I bought his barrel and built one, it would have been less $ if I had just completed the 80% lower but I had issues with the drill press and the jigs didn't match the lower. I bought a Ballistic Advantage lower instead and just completed the rifle, I'm going to swap stocks with my son but he had some issues due to my buffer tube mounting. Still as a whole I expect I'm into the whole AR-10 build sub $600 and I also have a 6.5 Creedmore barrel and upper components to build a 6.5 upper for super reasonable. It just means one needs to find the best deals on parts. Now I only need a gas block and tube for my new 6.5 Creedmore upper...
Bro you know you have turned into a great UA-camr.. for what that’s worth 😂 you do make great content that’s actually pretty valuable… well done
Wonder what the ole .30-06 would do at 1200 given you can get loadings with a bit more powder.
It’s devastating
About 5 to 10 percent better then 308, so not much
Just step up to .300 win mag
@@ChanoLeyva-l8x .30-06 has 18% more case capacity (56gr vs 68gr). If you handload it and push it hard, you can hot them up to nearly factory .300WM performance. It's still an absolutely excellent caliber; anything .308 (an excellent caliber in of itself) can do, .30-06 does better.
@ 18 percent case capacity does not equate to 18 percent more performance. Yea you can do hot 308 loads too that will only be at most 100 fps slower
Last time i asked someone to be able to shoot 1000 yards, they were surprised because there was no range in my area with 1000 yards
Eww SDI. Do youtubers even bother searching how terrible SDI is?
How and why are they terrible? All I see is comments echoing how bad they are
@@MilesLong556x69They are kind of like ITT technical school. They overcharge and under deliver.
Why because I’d a 20 year old kid that did a video on them because he was mad they wouldn’t sponsor them ?
I hat about the vets that day it gave them purpose
@@LastAmericanOutlaw because they pay too good. You can’t help it.
@LastAmericanOutlaw it's false advertising. They do nothing as far as teaching you to learn "gun smithing". And they take money from vet loans as I understand. I understand you gotta make a living. Sponsors are hard to come by. I personally don't judge you and thank you for your service.
Great video guys. I enjoyed the long range ballistics testing and the conversation about both cartridges regarding viability. I haven't shot that far before but thank you for demonstrating that is not easy to hit targets at that distance.
Thanks for the comment Matt appreciate it, schedule a trip down here. Let’s do one together.
@LastAmericanOutlaw sounds like a good idea
Frogman and American Outlaw in 1 video? Amazing.
What do you think is better 6.5 or .308
Bought two DD5v4's in 6.5CM, re-barreled with Proof Research Carbon-Fiber prefits. They absolutely outclass my previous .308's to the point I retired and sold them all. They outshot all of my custom bolt actions in .308 as well as various .308 semi-autos in my armory. While I have not come close to peak round count on these barrels, one of my team members has easily surpassed the peak count, still shooting sub-moa so far with only a slight velocity loss.
I find that very hard to believe, you were probably using shit 308 ammo, with the high bc 30 cal ammo on the market today there’s not much a difference
I like how he stated “do i want to give away my position?”
In today’s world it’s not just a sxs that makes it to you. The reality of it is that drones with thermal would find you anyway . Today’s warfare is evolving everyday. I like how he said realistically 5-600 yards is his comfort zone. THE veterans know realism and practicality vs wishful thinking.
Hey guys, I did a first shot/kill in the middle of a '57 Chevy hood (don't fret, it was a 4 door) at a mile with my 81mm mortar. Right tool, right job....lol.
Love your show.
WELCOME HOME.
SGT DOUG, RECON, 101ST, RVN 68-69 LZ SALLY
I'm assuming that 57 was on a stateside arty training range as a target... and wasn't some kind of captured/repurposed NVA staff car in country... right?
I am old enough to remember when guys said 6.8 spc made 5.56 obsolete. I wonder how those guys are doing now?
Yea same here. Except 6.5 literally replaced 308 on the long range scene. It's not a good analogy
That wasn't very long ago and that's apples to oranges. You're talking about a 60 year old 22 centerfire cartridge and a now obscure 6.8 experiment. The 308 and the 6.5 are at very least comparable. The 6.5 has been around since the 1890's. The 6.5 isn't just now better than a 308, it always has been.
Rounds only become "obsolete" in the military. I still have a .45-70 in my hunting rotation.
@@CastielA3G lol me too
@@jwalesoutlaw3294 6.5 really did take over, but I remember when Zack Smith did a take on the 260, 6.5 x 47, and the 65 Creedmoor and said the Creedmoor wouldn’t make it. Back I was a 6 x 47 shooter and I never thought it would make it.
I have multiple rifles of both calibers. For "my hunting" in NE Michigan (under 350 yrds) either is incredible with high quality factory ammo (Fed Premium/Hornady ELD-X, 8:33 etc ). Depends on your application but if you think the 308 is done (up to 500 yrds +) you need to do more research. At 300yrds to 500yrds if it's brown its down (no question for good shoot shooters). It's old and boring and it works.
My first observation is the difference in barrel lengths. You should run a comparison test with the same barrel lengths at a minimum, preferably the same make and model as well. But no cartridge will ever "replace" another. I hunt with a 6.8western, is that cartridge needed, not really, but it fills all my needs and works perfectly for my hunting style. Can my 7mm do all the 6.8western does, of course, did I sell my 7mm .......nope.
Thank you for making this video. Last year my rifle instructor got me shooting out to 800 yards with an 18 in Howa shooting 175 grain 308s. At the end of the course I was challenged with a question of how far I could shoot and consistently hit with money on the line. I called out 500 yards and glib when the metal rang out. I plan on taking out and getting dope on my 300 WM next.
What ammo were you using in the 308? Because I shoot competitively in king of 1 mile witha 308win. 1200 yd should be running you about. 15/ 16 mills up
I love this guest! He adds to the conversation with great closing questions!
6:23 mamma didn’t raise no quitter
Another great vid, and much appreciated the questions at the end
The shot on trump was only like 130 yards, not 300, making your point more relevant
Yep, different accounts were from 130 to 150. Don't think he was rushed the ss gave him plenty of time. Head shots are for movies and videos!
Which shooter crooks or the first three shots which sounded completely dif and had a dif audio distance in the waveform from shot passed to shot sound
Thank you! 🙏🏼
10:30 Very wise words. I like his philosophy of removing someone from the fight.
Anytime these comparisons come up the first thing to talk about is the projectile. This looks like a 175 smk in the 308 and I’m betting a 140 eld-m in the 6.5. A 169 smk or 185 Berger in the 308 probably could’ve gone a good ways.
I took a 178bthp hornady goin 2158fps from a 16” dd5v3 to 1k and hit 1st rd usin magnitospeed and app. 3x15 viper 58moa. Dialed and held whole reticle. One time but my first trip out with 1k available and to hit with 16” gasser first rd was somethin. Looked like a rainbow
@ lol I’m sure it had an arc. That’s slow as Christmas even for that barrel length and bullet weight. Was that factory ammo?
@@K-bob_45 no but I was trying to to duplicate the white bx 178gr bthp match with 47gr of superformance. Factory ones I printed 3”@520 on my full size and swung over and got a 20oz first shot so I keep a bx of every good ammo I find put back and I’m sure most have stashed way more but I have 12-14 .308 loads and 10 or so 6.5prc and that many .223 also which shot few .5”er’s 16” doublestar plain ol carbine 3x9 Nikon. 40gr v max 3390-3400fps. 55gr blitz/gameking both round 3100. Love makin and testin rounds more than breathin air I think.
@@K-bob_45 also was before I had a crono and just went off pressure signs and shot till I got good groups and that ended up bein slowern a night in jail.
@@charlesmullins3238 yeah I’m not sure superformance is ideal in that application. They used to recommend it only in rifle length semi autos. I think I’d try something quicker like H4895 or maybe Tac if you like the ease of loading ball powder. Ultimately the rifle will tell you what it wants. I’d think you should be able to get ~2450 from a 16” with a 178 without trying too hard
Thank you. BTW the buggy is the preferred combat vehicle for Walmart
Thanks for the 308 love.
Great video, guys. 308 will always be my choice for an all around go to caliber. The only one i dont have is a bolt gun in 308, which i plan on changing soon. Im good with being able to shoot 500 yds. That's how long my driveway is from my front porch. 😅
The 6.5 may stay supersonic longer and thus have better terminal ballistics but it is not any sort of viable replacement for the ,308 which has been and still is used effectively at 1000 plus meters on plenty of targets...
Only use 3 Rounds 308 556 are my main Entrees and 762x39s are just laying in wait in case also to Throw Lead Long you need to know brass primers powder bullet and build the load data for that 1 barrel twist gas weather elevation it can drive you crazy and then After months an months ya drop a 100 plus rounds to find that’s sweet spot and then Boom or Miss but still more fun than riding a bar stool
Idk why people are so wanting to compare the CM to the .308. There are many cartridges that out perform the .308 at long range and the CM. And most of these cartridges are over 50 years old now.
You can’t replace the three 0 hate! It absolutely still has a place in the military and just for hunting purposes too
What 308 barrel length and twist rate did you use in this video and what would you suggest
20 inch 10 twist
19 inch 8 twist is proven on Doppler
The rifles and glass have become cheaper and better, but the biggest difference is rangefinders and ballistic calculators. 10 years ago having a range finder capable of an accurate read at 1200 yards cost more than your whole gun today. Something no one mentions
I hunted with 6.5 in Kodiak, Alaska for a week. I immediately sold the rifle after. Made 2 through shots (sub 300m) that resulted in stalks that were grueling (for an ethical hunter). 308 dumps so much more energy into the target, and I believe that makes for a more effective round. Also a GWOT vet, OIF 06-08 in Mosul, Iraq. Route clearance.
What was your shot placement? Ive taken caribou with a 22 mag.
You are spot on. Regardless of where impact is the 308 it’s a lot harder than the 6.5. People say 1500lbs is necessary to make ethical kills. That means the 6.5 stops at 400 and the 308 is 550 with what I load.
I’ve seen the same issue on lighter weight southern white tails.
A nice post, until you tried to create some kind of relevance with your military experience.
@@eriklambert3809Me also.
Great video, thank you for making this! Merry Christmas to you and your Family! Stay safe!
Hey. It's the dude Matt Pranka completely dismantled
Matt needs to calm down
@LastAmericanOutlaw no he doesnt. Hes bringing light to all the veteran, social media liars and bullshit training....and he was doing it before the boys at Antihero
He also just happens to put his money where is mouth his and do discussions live. Most of the frauds wont show up. At least this dude did.
Bro, that’s my friend, I’ve known Matt for a long time, I’m friends with a lot of Matt friends. When I say Matt needs to calm down, he needs to calm down. Is he right about a lot of stuff he says yes but he still needs to calm down.
The future of our gun laws, our generations that will be operators later, matter from guys like him, pulling them up and out of the liberalism, but when you be little people and you constantly fight them, that doesn’t work
@@LastAmericanOutlaw ummmm. Ok. Friends you say?
If i remember right a 150 gr boat tail in 30-06 at 1000mts rises 37 ft in a trajectory arc
Bruh I am a 6.5 creedy person especially 6.5 PRC junky and this video is awesome. One day I will get a 308 rifle but until then 6.5 will be my go ammo for long distance.
I load the 95gr v max in a carbon waypoint prc and brother it screams ands devastating..h4350. Very hard on barrel at 3600fps
@@charlesmullins3238 140gr 6.5 PRC is my primary ammo of choice.
@@Jupiterxice I honestly have almost every weight .264 from 95 to 156 and 140 is baby bear but I’ll say 130tmk@3220 is my 2nd behind that 95 unless I’m shootin somethin big. Almost went through 3/4” mild@200yrds with those 130s. 140vld bout the same depth divit
Yea I much prefer the 6.5prc or what I built the 6.5saum. I have extensive experience with 308 so so caliber to me.
I've always said a hit at 600 or 700 with .556 and a good projectile you're out of the fight. You might live but you're hurting.
Whitefeather said in his interview, "one shot, two at the most, and you're out of there". Great book and I highly recommend it.
I always get a kick out of the 6.5 vs 308. Everyone tests a 140gr6.5 vs a 180gr 308
You are going to have a big difference when the bullet weighs more.
I would like to see someone test same size bullets and with a 308 not hard to load faster rounds if needed. And it ends up not being that far off from each other. But you have the option to run heavy bullets or light bullets when needed with the 308. And can be done with a shorter barrel on the 308 :)
Also using match bullets aren't the best representation of capabilities either
@@dylanowens70I don’t necessarily mind the match grade. But they should both be similar bullet weight and load style.
I can reload my 308 to shoot hotter if needed. And use a smaller bullet to get similar or better compared to factory 6.5.
It is just all fun in the end.
I currently have my 308 with a custom 16” barrel and I can load the rounds to shoot the same as it was when it had the 20” barrels on it with factory ammo. :)
In the Pacific ,the 30 cal saved Uncle Bud to live to be 96 yo !!The best Generation!!
So according to this test no one should ever take an 800 yard shot at game. My two questions are - "at what distance do y'all think one can guarantee a kill shot?" and "at what distance do y'all think is the farthest ethical distance to try and take a kill shot on game?"
Realistically, 400 yards on game is the edge of practicality for reliably hitting the animal, let alone recovering it (bad hit, disappearing into brush, etc.).
If you can't get within 1/4 mile of your animal, you just flat out suck at hunting.
@@Borderline5440 I was just wondering because I have never shot past 50 yards to date.
I have always stalk hunted within the Big Thicket in south east Texas myself. When I was 16 I took my first buck at 40 yards. He was a 6 point. Stalking I have gotten within 10 feet of deer twice. One was 6 or 8 point buck and the other one a doe. I got the doe one shot between the eyes, but my 30 cal M1 Carbine was out of battery when I pulled the trigger on the buck. I had his forehead lined up in my sights as well. Imagine my surprise when nothing happened. The buck was long gone before I could figure out what happened. I ended up stalking him 2 miles for nothing.
I am thinking about getting an AR-10 in 45 Raptor which can shoot point blank out to 200 yards. And at that distance the wind makes very little difference. I probably would never get a clear shot that far but it would be nice to know I could if I wanted to.
Talk about sucking at hunting - people that set traps are trappers - people that set out bait are baiters - and people that use dogs are basically low life puppies. And not the first one of them are hunters in my book! They're all on the lazy side letting the bait/traps/dogs do the work for them. There ought to be a law, yet I suppose most people would never be able to get a deer otherwise.
In Europe its generally ill advised & actually frowned upon to shoot at any game past 200 Mtrs!
Meanwhile, here in western 🇨🇦 watching how most shooters here at our local gun range are already struggling, while shooting from a solid benchrest and trying hitting any of the steel discs at 235 yards, then I’d say even 400 yards is way out of most hunters league; especially considering in any live hunting scenarios there are no shooting benches around!
@@thepiedpiper-i7x Although the 45 Raptor is touted to be able to shoot point blank out to 200, I figured - according to the Ballistic Trajectory Calculator - 165 yards would be plenty far enough for that rifle. That is if I the line of sight starts at 1.5" above bore, come 10 yards the bullet would be 1' below line of sight. Then at 33 yards it would be spot on. At 90 yards it would be 1" above line of sight. At 143 again spot on. And finally out at 165 it would be 1" below line of sight. This would make a 2" point blank range window out to 165 yards. Throw in a 1" give or take at that distance and I would have a 4" point black hit ratio. And a 10 to 15 mile an hour wind would not throw the bullet of more than 3" one way or the other at this distance, whereby I should be able to put any and all bullets in a 6" circle without question at 165 Yards with light winds. Which would include my messing up a little here and there. If I add one of them scopes that call the distance and automatically adjust a red dot for elevation plus makes a windage call I should have no problems making 150 yard shots all day long. Being I have always hunted with iron-sights this would be a whole new world for me. Like American Outlaw sad in the video us older people need new ways to help keep us out there in the woods, if nothing more that sitting on the tailgate waiting for a deer to wonder within scoping sight.
Awesome video, thanks for doing this comparison!
Neither caliber is obsolete. I prefer the Creedmoor because recoil. The load I use still has 1200ft pounds of impact energy at 600 yards. Pluses and minuses for both.
I love that Hornady match ammo. (140 gr if I remember right). My custom built 6.5 CM shoots consistent 10” groups at 1000. Past that, you start seeing the inconsistencies in the factory ammo, though. The few shooting comps I’ve been involved with, the .308 is great to about 7-800 yards then it starts gettin a bit squirrely. Maybe ammo for it has gotten a bit better since then, however. Plus we are almost always dealing with a 7-20 mph crosswind so that doesn’t help the .308 either. Regardless it’s still a great round. Wouldn’t ever say it’s obsolete!
Yeah, right SDI for gunsmithing. Creditability drop.
Why ?
@ SDI is a scam promising education in Gunsmithing that will lead to a career. The industry for the majority does not respect SDI. Main reason machining and technical aspects of gunsmithing are best learned in person. There are credible gunsmithing schools such as Lassen Community College, Colorado School of Trade and a few others. Gunsmithing is a skill that takes discipline learned in person. No short cuts. SDI means to broaden their reach by sponsoring guntubers. Take their money and run with it bro, but it’s not a good look.
Working with gunsmiths, SDI is the liberal arts degree of gunsmithing. Designed from the ground up to take advantage of GI bill from ignorant veterans
Really?@@LastAmericanOutlaw
SDI has been a joke since day one!
I am coming into this having chosen 6.5 CM over .308 because I bought into the hype, and somewhat regretting it because I don’t reload and shit ain’t cheap. Let’s see how this goes!
When i close my eyes it sounds like Alex Jones talking lol
Bro !!! Seth Rogan sure but Alex
I checked Cabela's for price comparison. Browning, Savage and others have the same price on the firearm. Ammo price for Norma Whitetail 140 grain(my Savage BA10 Stealth and Axis II like this round) and Norma 308 in 150 grain are the same price. Also, i have found that Academy is usually about equal in price on the ammo.
I have both. There. Problem solved. 😂
Hahah best answer
My long range gun is my T/C encore pro hunter 300 win mag bull barrel and a banish 30 gold. I have Leopold on it. Reloading my own ammo really tightened my groupings up.
Did this dude just say you get aerodynamic jump from a tailwind? lol 7:52
He said you get to watch cool videos
My relatively cheap Ruger American Magpul Hunter 6.5 can hit 1000 all day long very consistently. I dial in 9.2 mils, 20 moa base, 140gr ELDM.
6.5 was designed to shoot at objects over a long range. Hence why it shoots flatter and is less affected by the wind. 308 is meant for short distances and packs a heavier punch at the shorter ranges due to it being a heavier bullet. Hence why it is still suggested you use 308 when hunting because most distances that you are shooting an animal at like deer is 100 yards. Why use a lighter ammo that is built for shooting at 1200 yards...
I had a Remington 40X in 6.5 Rem Mag. It made a believer out of me for long range shooting. That said the .308 is absolutely not dead. You have a smorgasbord of different bullets on your plate. Everything from 110 gr to 220 gr.
Don't try what at home, because they are professionals? What does that mean? We shoot ELD all the time. Maybe we better stop because you said so.
Thinking the same!
I think hes talking about not standing downrange like the cameramen. Jeez guys, thin skin.
My Jakl is awesome! I would suggest a bolt re-design so that you can have some sort of fwd assist. Like a small dimple for your thumb.
Short answer: No, because barrel longevity.
Yes sir
The 6.5x55 SE has made all of the pre obsolete.
308 will survive 100 Mike Jones divorces.
I’m being savage on the stupid. Leave 6.5CM to what it was made for. Bench rest competitions. Not combat. Just like leave Mike Jones away from women or there will be more baby mommas than the entire projects combined.
Very informative video I have several 308 guns. I'll keep them thank you. When I got into this kind of shooting 6.5 CM was pretty new. I got the 308 because it's been here and ammo is plentiful so I'll keep what I got. The main thing for me affordability!!!
.308 is cheaper, easier to find and not just a FAD.
Don't think you can call the 6.5 a fad. 6.
5 versions have been around for a century in EU.
Err..the price difference isn't much anymore
That boomer talking point from 2004 no longer applies in 2024.
Don’t know what country you live in but 6.5 has been at the same price point as .308 / 7.62 NATO consistently for the past 2-3 years (at least) here in the states.
I’ve also never been inside a store that sells ammo and they didn’t have one while carrying the other. So that statement about it being harder to find is 100% false.
The funny thing is that all this information is easily googleable. It’s almost like you fudds stay talking out of your ass. Go figure.
Lastly, how are you going to call 6.5 a FAD when our military is literally in the process of transitioning to it and ditching the .308. Not to mention 6.5 is becoming more and more preferred in the PRS crowd.
Longest running fad I've seen, gramps. Maybe you should also look at the cost of 175gr SMKs, because I can load match grade 6.5 far cheaper than that that. 168s struggle past 800. There's a reason 308 is a handicap class for PRS.
"Don't try this at home we are literally professionals..." That's hilarious.
Have to for UA-cam to allow the video.
The gravy seals at it again. Just 10 years late, this is an old debate
lol son we need to explain it more simple for you
@ you are a fake and a fraud.
@@LastAmericanOutlaw meal team 6 needs content
OP so... uh... who the fuck are you then?
It's advantageous to immediately eject your cartridge after each shot taken while sighting in and leave your bolt open. It may sound unimportant or picky but it allows maximum heat removal from the barrel in between shots other than using a barrel heat remover. Remember, there's no such thing as"Cooling" the barrel. There's only heat removal. The lower the temperature of the barrel while sighting in your weapon, the more accurate your shots will be.
Its Frogman Tactical! Hell yeah
Great guy
I know when I was in the military, with a burnt out 1992 M240B, I managed a first shot 2,200 meter 8rnd burst hit on a 3x3 ft target using a starlight scope (I don't know the generation, but I know it was pretty fuzzy picture. We were doing night familiarization training in the USN Seabees). There was enough time delay with the 7.62x51 that I could actually spot and hear my own shots. Extremely long story short, there were probably a lot of variables that helped keep such a tight group at that range, especially since the target was at the bottom of the 1.5x power scope. So, Yeah, 6.5 may do better in some degrees, but 308 won't be phased out for a long time, let alone it's weaker brother 7.62x51.
On paper 6.5 looks good but in reality .308 has more energy and momentum out past 600. MAX DEER RANGE: 6.5/500: .308/580: 300 Win Mag/860. 300 Norma for ELR.
With potential near peer adversaries adopting body armor in greater numbers , this is having a effect on the decision to go from 5.56 to .308 and 6.5 .
308 is king
I like it
20 years ago lol
Another great video, Wade. Seems like a really cool product.
1200-1300ish yards is a nogo for the .308, after about 1400ish the bullet finally drops out of transonic speeds into subsonic and re-stablizes.
Internet lore says they fall out of the sky at 800
De- stabilizes?
@@MilesLong556x69as I understand it, as any bullet slows under the speed of sound it can begin to yaw (de stabilize).
I don’t know anything about destabilizing.
@ appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Transonic-Effects-on-Bullet-Stability-BC.pdf
@@MilesLong556x69 As a bullet looses speed, it goes from super sonic speed (+1125.33fps), to transonic ( a zone between 1352fps and 900fps)... when a bullet is in transonic flight, it is the most turbulent, it will yaw and pitch as little mach ripples*(i guess is what youd call them) form in uneven layers around the bullet. As it slows to subsonic speed, those ripples disapear and the bullet is aboe to once again stabolize. *pardon my horrific grammer im on a busted phone.
Lets be honest, the barrel and reloader win championships. Kreiger,Bartlein,Pacnor, Shilen barrels are a great place to start.