I've been designing transmission lines for nearly 40 years. People who say t-lines are too big, and that they're a waste of time, obviously don't know how to design them properly, and they don't state the truth, that there is no one box, that is optimum in every situation, for every subwoofer, in every listening environment and for everyone's listening preference ... period!
Thats a purpose specific design with very narrow bandwidth… Not musically appropriate. If you want to roll around playing a single sign wave, you would impress every 12 yo kid in town.
@@RobotUnderground that’s completely subjective. Also, 4th order band passes use the sealed section for cone control so you can give the sub the power it wants without the larger ported chamber creating as you say “sensitivity issues”
Don Keele compared a variety of enclosures using the same JBL pro woofer (in a project for JBL) and modeled the amount of output and bass extension obtained vs the size of the enclosure. He used some kind of scoring system that considered both output and octaves of extension relative to the "worst of the worst". In his analysis, he found that a bass-reflex enclosure provided the most output/extension for a given air volume with a given speaker. This was mainly relevant to pro audio, as JBL was working on the VerTec array in those days, but it's an interesting finding and I would be interested to see how it bears out with other drivers.
How about horns? A front loaded horns is a BP4. A hybrid horn with a ported rear chamber is a BP6. In order to sound good and save the driver from over excursion, you need to high pass and low pass filter right about the pass band of the box. Bandpass box is a trade off, wide frequency or narrow with efficiency. I use hornresp to simulate freq response. I made a lot of BP4 and BP6. They play flat really well within the pass band. The problem with those are the group delay
Again, you keep thinking you're getting something free or that you've found a hack. You're compromising performance, accuracy as well as physical space.... and for what?? Things are different in such a small space like a car.
@@nomore25 Absolutely not. It applies to the enclosure as well. You always have to compromise something. Bandpass and horn guys all think that you get something for free and you don't. The biggest compromise is total enclosure size. Especially when you compare to how small a simple passive radiator setup can get you.
@@nomore25what he's saying, basically, is that instead of building a big horn enclosure for one 15 (for example), you could build a ported box for 2 12s thats the same size, and will get just as loud, if not even louder. But again... the tradeoff there is that you pay more for the subs. Always a tradeoff 🤷
EXTRA LARGE sealed box is the way to go for hifi subs! Amazing low end even from a cheap sub, with a nice gradual slope going up. My 12 inch in my car sounds like a low excursion live performance stage subwoofer. Although, it’s not very loud at 400-900 watts. It just sounds super deep. Gets loud the lower the song.
Hey trying to look online for the recommended enclosure for a tc sounds lms ultra 18 and audio pulse 15inch revo. The same information you showed in the video from tc sounds
@@RobotUnderground thank you. I tried the link you give but the site only giving the parameters of the tc sounds 18 lms driver not the enclosure specs like in your video for the tc 5200. Really need the enclosure specs for a aero port enclosure for the tc sounds lms 18 and the 15 audio pulse 15. Thanks again
@@ronniehosein7384 Never use an aero port. They're not big enough. Text me direct and I can design you an enclosure for your subs. No charge. Just text me with your name and shipping address so I can add you to my phone, 6023126504
JL has putting out some fantastic online training seminars. Been watching you and them every chance I get trying to soak up some knowledge and learn something lol. Keep em comming!
I’m so glad I found this video. I’ve been wanting to build a bandpass enclosure but the modeling software showed that it was never a good idea (in my case, which is listening to actual music and not sine waves). Thanks for the content.
Bandpass box is more efficient then a ported box, but it is VERY hard to design a bandpass box that sounds good. It is better to simply make a ported or sealed and save the headaches. There is also the advantage of being able to play deeper base without added power. Using low frequency cutoff on the sub, allows it to play louder while the ports in the bandpass add the low frequency extension. Doing that in a sealed box, or even ported box, takes a lot of power, and is a lot harder on the subwoofer itself.
I'm still a fan of sealed enclosures but have owned many ported boxes but I am going sealed in my next build. You got any unique 12in frames you would build looking for something not many have.
Sealed sounds so good to me. I watched his video and noticed Im backwards. My qts is .61 and they're in a sealed box. I dont have a subsonic filter so I cant go ported anyway.
Only reason to go bandpass 1)Novelty/doing something different 2) One note SPL boxes for competition. Everybody should build one just to say they did. For extreme SPL experimenting with the driver in the car is more important.
hey I want 10 or 12 with a350 budget I wanted some sounds and got a dam bandpass box an have bought shutty prefab. and box makers charge what they charge because it's custom any recommendations please. it's ok what I have but want to experience these ported boxes I been seeing and hearing. the bandpass box I have is sound ordinance. I have a decent amp to push what ever
Dumb. Plain, boring ported box is the best in many categories. Paraflex / horn designs are great for a freestanding woofer in a large space.... Like a strip club, which is why you see them there. It's best to just use the corner or several corners of the room as a horn... Or better yet, just have more woofers in the ceiling or close to the end user. There are many other ways to move and shake air in a large space. Overall Paraflex is just a cute trick that even many fans of such don't realize how to apply. They just want to use it everywhere because they think they're getting something for free.
@@RobotUnderground There is no one box, that is optimum in every situation, for every subwoofer, in every listening environment and for everyone's listening preference ... period!
I feel like that you are generalizing here... Bandpass boxes are optimal for when you dont have fold down seats. Since I started getting experience building series tuned bandpass boxes I never went back to vented. In my particular application the gain is tremendous since all output is vented through the skipass with no trunk rattle. Problem with bandpass boxes is you need to model it with proper software... Hornresp or Akabak. Models that can take into account box geometry, effects port area and loading and their effect on tuning (since they do not act mutually exclusively) as well as large-signal woofer effects... Make REs or Torres Box calculator look quite rudimentary, and while stuff like WinISD or Bassbox Pro is better its still not sufficient to model appropriately . I'm not a fan of 4th orders but series tuned 6th orders are amazing for install flexibility since all output is coming out of a port and the fact you can tune the passband on both sides where with a vented box you are essentially stuck with a single gain shelf before it rolls off.
My personal experience of dealing with tens of thousands of clients, my friendships and conversations with people in the industry, Rockford, PPI, Orion and MTX all confirm my thoughts in this video. I'm not saying you can't make a BP, I'm saying it's a waste of time and precious space.
Wow, thank you for the confirmation of information. I need to re-purchase the Loudspeaker Cookbook as well ( had it in 1993) and used it to build my first set of ported 15inch subwoofers to piss off the neighbors in my studio apartment. LOL
The most frustrating thing for me is when people bring me 2 12’s and want to put them under the seat of an extended cab pickup ( or some other ridiculous waste of space and speaker). I’m a mechanic/body man now but I used to put in several systems a week.
And want to do hair tricks. Yes. I get this a lot. I usually recommend if they have the 30\70 split seat to put the small seat up, then use that space for a large 15" and box.
@@RobotUnderground yup! I usually say something like “sell one and I’ll build you a vented enclosure that will out preform the two with insufficient air space.” Or “sell them both and we’ll pack 3 or 4 8’s under the seat”, only to be met with”…but…but it’s 2 12’s.” I dig what you do.
That was an experiment. Get it right the first time with just a recommended ported box. I even run my 18" SX in a sealed paper tube here in the garage.
Not needed if you have enough cone area and excursion to begin with. Typically those are for PA applications. PA subs were designed for live music, not playback, EMD or rap. The big horn enclosures create a mass loading to act as an acoustic amplifier. Same thing as putting a sub in the corner of a room. Big paraflex enclosures create that. The compromise is they take up yooge amounts of space.
@@sarahconner9433 Ive built one with 2 skar ddx d2 12's and a jp23 pushing them in series\parallel...it's pretty amazing using quarter wave theory it's a paraflex type-c "cram" and I sit around 140 to 145 decibels just before clipping with a strong flat frequency response from 33 HZ all the way to 120 check it out it's now in Horn Resp. in its own category. It is very REAL
@@fabeybaby8213 thx for trying to help me!.. I'm doing the same...I know exactly how good your system sounds....that design had been around for a really, really long time....(1991?).... However, it's called a "horn reflex"..."feedback horn" or "scoop"......"Para" is short for " parametric" or "AROUND" which that box is not a...."horn"....."flex" is short for "reflex" as in a "bass reflex port" is Not really...."hornresp." Is an ok guild but not a ultimate standard.... Your stuff Sounds really good yes!.... Keep at it my friend....
@@hooptastic_hippie8522 yea I know. I'm up in Canada, so they were over $1400 for one. Crazy price but so worth it. I had 2 Re Audio XXX 18s years back and those were great subs, I built a box for SQ and it hammered hard as well. But those level 6s do more than double power and hammer twice as much.
I just try to go with whatever sounds when making a slot port box, I always play around with my port depth until I find what sounds good.. a inch or two does make a big difference... dont always trust box caculators.. I trust my ears..
Agree and Disagree on this Topic. If you are looking for Just musical yes Ported and Sealed are the Way to go but for Competition nothing Beats Bandpass either 4th or 6th. im working on a 6th order design for a specific type of music using a Decent tc sounds 15" old school sub. let see how it plays later.
Really appreciate your quick reply. Fs 29; qms 5.47; qes 0.57; qts 0.8; xmax 13.5mm. I have single 15” ported now, but built a box and going for dual 15” sealed.
Want to know how bandpass really works? Shoot me a line. Both a 4th order bandpass and vented are 4th order acoustic alignments. Also the cabin acts like a acoustic alignment aka you are bandpassing the alignment by rolling the windows down
@@RobotUnderground I'm not quite sure what's the issue with them. I know how you feel about manufactures bullshitting the public. I hate it as well. I don't perticularlly like 4th order bandpass I actually have a ported box loading off a built rear wall in my no wall setup that meters good sounds fine and has a bandwidth if one octave from 30 to 60. Reguardless it's not the best setup. Many people accomplish the same thing in different alignments. They all have flaws.
Robot your correct again!! BP is dogshit.... And correct there is no real 4th order or 6th order... That is an incorrect name that the inet invented...
Joel.... Respectfully. .,..I'm a post PhD. E.E..... there are hundreds of millions of orders!! The orders you think you describe are mathematical differential equations, squaring solutions and cubing solutions.... However these enclosure do nothing related to that... All these BP BOXES do is kill db and total maximum output.... The cost of "extended" frequency response is high.... The"flat"" and "wider" response you claim is only because the entire frequency range is lower by,, 6db at "4th" order and -12db at your 6 th order.... Nothing is "gained"!!!! Horns are a "gain", amplifier power is a gain, bigger magnet is a gain... Your belief is incorrect about gain... Now if you want to say thier interesting.... Maybe?? I think it's interesting to watch a db meter while rolling car windows up and down... But that doesn't mean the box design is superior.... Or "gains" anything...
Back in the day 90’s I was a teen. I liked band passes cause you get “bass” from low/any amount of power. Luckily I learned that band passes covered up distortion and then you’d blow the speaker(s) them your SOL. so I was able to convince a few buddy’s early on to just go sealed. I still liked sealed but I made a box just out of my head it fit in my trunk just right and just by dumb luck the box tune was at 25hz and that is what I wanted since I paid my sub builder to make subs for that range. I ran my measurements thru a box builder online and it actually came to 25hz. I then had an actual box builder make me a box for my newer subs he tuned the port to 32hz and I really don’t much care for that tunning so I’m going to make that same box again I had solo X 18 motors on/in and put my new Adire Kalis 15’s that are better made for lows than solo X 18 motors.... I think 🤔🔊🔊. Box is just as important as the sub/driver/woofer
@@RobotUnderground Definitely I’m using 180-220 right now while I’m still using some stock mids. I can’t stand distortion I’m constantly changing things to keep it sounding good. But I know it’s good when random people come tell me it sounds super clear and clean outside vehicle and then ask what I have and I’m like right now stock mids a old 12 alpine that sat outside a buddies house for months in the weather with no dust cap I took and fixed up and a box I modified from something else real quick with some aero ports and a head unit I payed 14 bucks for online that should of been 100 and an used kicker cx600 amp. And they start laughing and think I’m funny and I say I’m serious... you don’t have to spend 1000 bucks to have good sound and rattle some windows you just have to understand how to tune and hear distortion. And doing it for 20 years for all your buddies too.
I'm not trying to get mean but you don't understand this enought to make a video. Not one rockford car nor sealed box has a world record. When you get 2 18s sealed to do 158 cone let me know. I'm not getting into this right now but I'll be glad to link articles for people to understand acoustic alignments. Simply put the act like crossovers but acoustically. The port IS another driver. The air mass inside the port US the diaphram
hm. I watched local SPL hero Scott Owens be the first person to break 180db with 13x Pioneer SPL subs in sealed boxes. Then he did it again with 8 of those same subs in ported boxes. - SPL is dumb and a waste of time and energy.. You don't need a trophy to prove your value or up your self esteem. Try doing something kind for someone else. That's what improves self esteem.
@@RobotUnderground yea and 1 18" woofer is doing 181. Point is the poor efficiency from seal enclosures presents alot of issues. 2nd order sealed has a much more shallow roll off and highly depends on displacement of one acoustic waveform. 4th other has compounding/ compression affects alot like loading affects that increase efficiency substantially as well as power handling. Your are correct about the decay and the orders but to say they Are junk is complete trash. Why are they bad? That's like saying don't use crossovers on your speakers. Vented has a ton of downfalls as well. It's 4th order alignment just like a 4th order bandpass. Phase shifts and group delay and troublesome in higher order alignments where the front and rear wave are present in the athomsphere it's takes calculation and Propped placement.
@@papermaker85 None of those issues really matter in real life. The bass either plays low or it don't. Anything out of phase just causes minor issues. Most guys don't hear the differences.
@@papermaker85 Well which do you prefer?? Passive or active crossovers? Science would point to active but many people still prefer passive crossovers. Passives aren't bad, but they are a waste of time and space compared to active types.
damn that means hexibase must be wrong and so is my dd608 ina 6th playing 22-58hz +-1.2db doing 139.8db @25hz and 138.7@45hz (note my front stage crosses over at 40hz) using a bandpass box is the best way to get a wide bandwidth out of small drivers the only sub i have seen that doesnt need one is a jl w7 8 in a large low tuned ported box that plays flat from 22 and up. "ported and sealed is all you need" "anything you can do in a bandpass box you can do with a ported box" HAHAHA just no. you can get the same bandwidth out of a sealed box but you will loose so much output (although being smaller) compared to a 6th. every enclosure has its place. from what you have said that means everyone with 4th or 6th order wall builds should have just done a flat wall lol clown thought you would have atleast looked in winisd or bassboxpro like jeez.
I think "181.7" db points?... Since no one is allowed to independently db meter his system.... Know one really knows the actual db level.. But I'm sure it's way lower.....
I needed to know too lol because for the sake of sentimental value I was planning on recreating the 6th order bandpass box my dad got made back in the 2002 for those rockford power HX2s. But I'm still not familiar with 6th order bandpass I remembered how it sounded a little bit but over the years the spider started sagging so I guess it wasn't sounding like it used to. There just sitting there and trying to find someone to recone
FUCKING LOVE THE EPICENTER COMMENT. The brand is good and it had a purpose at a time when even Rap music didn't hit lows. Not like today with many artist making tracks in the sub bass range or just grab some Jeezy. Back then that wasn't really a thing. We are talking EARLY 90's. Eazy E Eazy Duz It Kid Rock Grits Sandwiches for Breakfast, NWA Straight Outta Compton, bout the only thing that might hit was Miami Bass, 2 Live Crew As Nasty As they Wanna Be. Yeah yeah I'm showing my age
It was dirty nursery rhymes for my buddy that owned it. I had kid rock from my slightly older sister, hell I was only about 9 at the time myself, and I found eazy duz it walking home. Some of the tape was out, but after winding it back up all was well. I traded something for NWA. That was still the time when you could buy those as a little kid, I don't know if it was before the stickers , I think during. but those didn't matter because for a while no one paid attention. They thought it was art work 😂 then the stickers just increased sales 🤣 I still know every word to Boyz n the hood, but don't quote me boy, I ain't said shit.
Oh, and with DSPs, IF someone was knowledgeable enough and purchased a FAST DSP chip ( I have a model noted cause I was tempted to try it), you could make the product that the Epicenter wanted to be, but the tech was no where even close to being in sight during that things inception. My idea was a device that would essentially take any frequencies within a range and reduce them by X octave in real time. Fully user configurable set by a phone over Bluetooth because you can just chat GPT the shit out of that portion. All the DSP logic you're in your own though, even with the studio dev software it wouldn't be easy. I said no because of the software cost to get in. Dev boards are on the high side too, but no individual license on the most maintenance stuff so fuck them. Fucking dinosaurs and their closed source, rape you in the ass prices. They can join Kmart one day but in the meantime I'm not funding ignorance.
@@RobotUnderground With way less bandwidth. Ain't no ported walls playing 15-60 like a bandpass can. Just because a ported box can play it doesn't mean its up to snuff when it comes to a bandpass. Look up the Iron Law.
Plus a lot of people don't really like how flat walls perform. Myself ive had over 5 flat walls over the years, all my bandpasses crush them. Plus they have a different sound to them. Even my worst bandpass build was better than my ported walls
@@sparco317 The shape of the enclosure doesn't matter since air is a fluid. Ported boxes though are the most efficient and effective in both SPL and daily.
@@sparco317 lol. A ported box has no low pass filter like a bandpass does. Tell me again, how a BP has more passband??? It's in the fu%ing name bro, BANDPASS. Ported box plays down to it's tuned frequency and then all the way up until you cross it off with the amp or a crossover. 2, sometimes 3 octaves. PA drivers go all the way up to 1k! 20Hz to 1k is almost 6 OCTAVES!
😂😂😂 this is ridiculous. As a bunch of people have already said, all of the loudest boxes with the larges bandwidth at all of the shows are 4th and 6th order enclosures. In order to make a ported enclosure that loud, you have to make it crazy peaky. It's only gonna play one note. But a bandpass box can be that loud and still have bandwidth. Just because you dont like sound competition, doesnt make it pointless or a waste of time and money. If that's the case, you have to say that about ALL hobbies. You are very much generalizing something that is extremely situation and application dependent.
Enjoy your content...I bet in 35 years I've build 20 band pass boxes...out of the 10 thousand boxes I've built....IMO in bandpass you trying to over think your box....90% of what I do is ported...program I use is from like 92...its just to do the math.....
You are grossly simplifying acoustics. Typical car audio guy! You’re standing on a soap box spitting gross inaccuracies. 18” sub in a 3 cube box? Why? If you’re building an spl box tuned super high, I agree but if you’re hoping to hit 20hz. Good luck.
he is. if you start looking at what the majority of people know in the hobby its very little. i think there is a place for the over simplified approach. there are guys having a conversation about trying to get every little bit of performance out of something for a competition or specific use case, then a guy who has no clue reads that and thinks that is what he has to do. most people will be better off sticking to some basics. then experiment. bass is really simple. now filling in the rest of the range with that same quality is a better challenge.
@@666Necropsy Actually quite a bit. Below that is mostly explosions in movies but using a tactile transducer is much more effective at 50 or 100w than most subs.
I dont why people be hating on sealed boxes ,if they are built right theyll sound great.. they can punch hard and have decent lows if done correctly.. again trial and error experiments is what it's all about to be able to find what sounds good
I'll give you the space factor though I started using bandpass more over the last 3 years without needing alot of power the output in a 6th is way better than any normal ported but if space is a factor you are correct and bandpass wouldn't be in the factor anyway but with that said I've gotten output from 1 that was louder than 2 in another box but built by another builder
@@tankv99 To get the kind of sensitivity that a BP gives, you simply change the tuning freqency of the ported box and it will match or be even better. So say your 6th order has a big hump at 50Hz. Just tune the ported box to 50Hz and it'll do the same or better.
@@tankv99 Again, it's all in how you tune both boxes actually. All subs can play that low but it depends on the moving mass and how much excursion and power it can use.
I've been designing transmission lines for nearly 40 years. People who say t-lines are too big, and that they're a waste of time, obviously don't know how to design them properly, and they don't state the truth, that there is no one box, that is optimum in every situation, for every subwoofer, in every listening environment and for everyone's listening preference ... period!
Indeed! Especially for synthetic music the BP is just fine, because no sharp transients are needed. Same with other designs.
Even in the spl world, there are bandpass boxes that win year after year in there class, so bandpass boxes must have there place
Thats a purpose specific design with very narrow bandwidth… Not musically appropriate. If you want to roll around playing a single sign wave, you would impress every 12 yo kid in town.
SPL and sound contests are a waste to time and space. Time = Money as well so throw that in there.
@@RobotUnderground that’s completely subjective. Also, 4th order band passes use the sealed section for cone control so you can give the sub the power it wants without the larger ported chamber creating as you say “sensitivity issues”
@@imthirstyh2o330 If you do make a bandpass, make sure the sealed portion is around the Vas size so that the sub can play to it's Fs
@@cyanidebill 6th order enclosures do pretty well. When you're doing 60s from 28-50 let me know.
News to me. All of my bandpass builds are just a waste of time and space 🤯
True. But you can learn and change. You could have done the same job in less space and time.
Don Keele compared a variety of enclosures using the same JBL pro woofer (in a project for JBL) and modeled the amount of output and bass extension obtained vs the size of the enclosure. He used some kind of scoring system that considered both output and octaves of extension relative to the "worst of the worst". In his analysis, he found that a bass-reflex enclosure provided the most output/extension for a given air volume with a given speaker. This was mainly relevant to pro audio, as JBL was working on the VerTec array in those days, but it's an interesting finding and I would be interested to see how it bears out with other drivers.
This is a good message some people don't understand
How about horns? A front loaded horns is a BP4. A hybrid horn with a ported rear chamber is a BP6. In order to sound good and save the driver from over excursion, you need to high pass and low pass filter right about the pass band of the box.
Bandpass box is a trade off, wide frequency or narrow with efficiency.
I use hornresp to simulate freq response. I made a lot of BP4 and BP6. They play flat really well within the pass band.
The problem with those are the group delay
Again, you keep thinking you're getting something free or that you've found a hack. You're compromising performance, accuracy as well as physical space.... and for what?? Things are different in such a small space like a car.
@@RobotUndergroundahh I forgot you are a master. But did you forget the Hoffman's Iron Law?
@@nomore25 Absolutely not. It applies to the enclosure as well. You always have to compromise something. Bandpass and horn guys all think that you get something for free and you don't. The biggest compromise is total enclosure size. Especially when you compare to how small a simple passive radiator setup can get you.
@@nomore25what he's saying, basically, is that instead of building a big horn enclosure for one 15 (for example), you could build a ported box for 2 12s thats the same size, and will get just as loud, if not even louder. But again... the tradeoff there is that you pay more for the subs. Always a tradeoff 🤷
EXTRA LARGE sealed box is the way to go for hifi subs! Amazing low end even from a cheap sub, with a nice gradual slope going up. My 12 inch in my car sounds like a low excursion live performance stage subwoofer. Although, it’s not very loud at 400-900 watts. It just sounds super deep. Gets loud the lower the song.
This is the way!
Hey trying to look online for the recommended enclosure for a tc sounds lms ultra 18 and audio pulse 15inch revo. The same information you showed in the video from tc sounds
Use the wayback machine. web.archive.org/web/20061112053909/www.tcsounds.com/tc5200.htm
Plug in www.AudioPulse.com into it.
@@RobotUnderground thank you. I tried the link you give but the site only giving the parameters of the tc sounds 18 lms driver not the enclosure specs like in your video for the tc 5200. Really need the enclosure specs for a aero port enclosure for the tc sounds lms 18 and the 15 audio pulse 15. Thanks again
@@ronniehosein7384 Never use an aero port. They're not big enough. Text me direct and I can design you an enclosure for your subs. No charge. Just text me with your name and shipping address so I can add you to my phone, 6023126504
All I do is listen to Tony Robbins lmaoooooo
Don't forget Robert Kiyosaki of Rich Dad / Poor Dad and George Adair of Omega Vector.
JL has putting out some fantastic online training seminars. Been watching you and them every chance I get trying to soak up some knowledge and learn something lol. Keep em comming!
Good. It's about time they gave back to the community that they take so much from.
@@RobotUndergroundLOL
I’m so glad I found this video. I’ve been wanting to build a bandpass enclosure but the modeling software showed that it was never a good idea (in my case, which is listening to actual music and not sine waves). Thanks for the content.
Your computer is smarter than you. Listen to it.
Rap is real music.
Bandpass box is more efficient then a ported box, but it is VERY hard to design a bandpass box that sounds good. It is better to simply make a ported or sealed and save the headaches. There is also the advantage of being able to play deeper base without added power. Using low frequency cutoff on the sub, allows it to play louder while the ports in the bandpass add the low frequency extension. Doing that in a sealed box, or even ported box, takes a lot of power, and is a lot harder on the subwoofer itself.
I'm still a fan of sealed enclosures but have owned many ported boxes but I am going sealed in my next build. You got any unique 12in frames you would build looking for something not many have.
Phoenix Gold Ti frames in red.
@@RobotUnderground what do they look like?
@@stormyyoung6344 instagram.com/p/CJMZ99jMsvg/
Sealed sounds so good to me. I watched his video and noticed Im backwards. My qts is .61 and they're in a sealed box. I dont have a subsonic filter so I cant go ported anyway.
Only reason to go bandpass 1)Novelty/doing something different 2) One note SPL boxes for competition.
Everybody should build one just to say they did.
For extreme SPL experimenting with the driver in the car is more important.
I feel the same way about sucking a dick.
hey I want 10 or 12 with a350 budget I wanted some sounds and got a dam bandpass box an have bought shutty prefab. and box makers charge what they charge because it's custom any recommendations please. it's ok what I have but want to experience these ported boxes I been seeing and hearing. the bandpass box I have is sound ordinance.
I have a decent amp to push what ever
Best to text me direct so we can exchange pics and links. 6023126504
will do
You really don't know how cool you are man thanks for all the information you give
Just trying to be the guy I wished was around when I was learning. Thank you for your kind words.
Phase attenuation and slopes aren't "worse". If your using the speaker in it's bandwidth and group delay is low there is NO ISSUES.
Thanks Robot for sharing, the JL info I will have to check that out.
What's your thoughts on a paraflex design in car vs home/concert? Or input in general on these cabinets?
Dumb. Plain, boring ported box is the best in many categories. Paraflex / horn designs are great for a freestanding woofer in a large space.... Like a strip club, which is why you see them there. It's best to just use the corner or several corners of the room as a horn... Or better yet, just have more woofers in the ceiling or close to the end user. There are many other ways to move and shake air in a large space. Overall Paraflex is just a cute trick that even many fans of such don't realize how to apply. They just want to use it everywhere because they think they're getting something for free.
@@RobotUnderground There is no one box, that is optimum in every situation, for every subwoofer, in every listening environment and for everyone's listening preference ... period!
@@utubecomment21saying "period!" Are the end of your comment doesn't magically make you correct.
I feel like that you are generalizing here... Bandpass boxes are optimal for when you dont have fold down seats. Since I started getting experience building series tuned bandpass boxes I never went back to vented. In my particular application the gain is tremendous since all output is vented through the skipass with no trunk rattle. Problem with bandpass boxes is you need to model it with proper software... Hornresp or Akabak. Models that can take into account box geometry, effects port area and loading and their effect on tuning (since they do not act mutually exclusively) as well as large-signal woofer effects... Make REs or Torres Box calculator look quite rudimentary, and while stuff like WinISD or Bassbox Pro is better its still not sufficient to model appropriately .
I'm not a fan of 4th orders but series tuned 6th orders are amazing for install flexibility since all output is coming out of a port and the fact you can tune the passband on both sides where with a vented box you are essentially stuck with a single gain shelf before it rolls off.
My personal experience of dealing with tens of thousands of clients, my friendships and conversations with people in the industry, Rockford, PPI, Orion and MTX all confirm my thoughts in this video. I'm not saying you can't make a BP, I'm saying it's a waste of time and precious space.
👍thanks for always teaching us about the business ins and outs
I like the Old Kove Armageddons U2’s had a pair of 18’s wish I neve sold them.
I think I have a motor that's engraved if you want me to build it out. Quad 2 ohm copper coil?
Yaaaaa that was a mistake....I still got 4 x 15s...
If you're gonna make a bandpass box, it should be a tapped horn
Wow, thank you for the confirmation of information. I need to re-purchase the Loudspeaker Cookbook as well ( had it in 1993) and used it to build my first set of ported 15inch subwoofers to piss off the neighbors in my studio apartment. LOL
It's free here, audioheritage.net/files/Loudspeaker%20Design%20Cookbook%20by%20Vance%20Dickason.pdf
Thank you so much, this frees up a few more dollars for the order I'm going to make with you.
@@forsale313 Hopefully it saves you time and space.
@@RobotUnderground saved thanks
Fantastic breakdown
Glad you liked it!
I've built many boxes with that RE calculator
The most frustrating thing for me is when people bring me 2 12’s and want to put them under the seat of an extended cab pickup ( or some other ridiculous waste of space and speaker). I’m a mechanic/body man now but I used to put in several systems a week.
And want to do hair tricks. Yes. I get this a lot. I usually recommend if they have the 30\70 split seat to put the small seat up, then use that space for a large 15" and box.
@@RobotUnderground yup!
I usually say something like “sell one and I’ll build you a vented enclosure that will out preform the two with insufficient air space.” Or “sell them both and we’ll pack 3 or 4 8’s under the seat”, only to be met with”…but…but it’s 2 12’s.”
I dig what you do.
I done a 28 hz - 56 hz running on a 6th order on a sx 18 at one point didn’t play bad wasn’t like what it was in a 4th
That was an experiment. Get it right the first time with just a recommended ported box. I even run my 18" SX in a sealed paper tube here in the garage.
@@RobotUnderground I’m trying to find something like the re audios mt 18s
I really like the channel bro good stuff! What are your opinions on the "paraflex" enclosure?
Not needed if you have enough cone area and excursion to begin with. Typically those are for PA applications. PA subs were designed for live music, not playback, EMD or rap. The big horn enclosures create a mass loading to act as an acoustic amplifier. Same thing as putting a sub in the corner of a room. Big paraflex enclosures create that. The compromise is they take up yooge amounts of space.
Fake name fake box.... No such thing as a "paraflex"... Not a horn not a reflex
@@sarahconner9433 Ive built one with 2 skar ddx d2 12's and a jp23 pushing them in series\parallel...it's pretty amazing using quarter wave theory it's a paraflex type-c "cram" and I sit around 140 to 145 decibels just before clipping with a strong flat frequency response from 33 HZ all the way to 120 check it out it's now in Horn Resp. in its own category. It is very REAL
@@fabeybaby8213 thx for trying to help me!.. I'm doing the same...I know exactly how good your system sounds....that design had been around for a really, really long time....(1991?).... However, it's called a "horn reflex"..."feedback horn" or "scoop"......"Para" is short for " parametric" or "AROUND" which that box is not a...."horn"....."flex" is short for "reflex" as in a "bass reflex port" is Not really...."hornresp." Is an ok guild but not a ultimate standard.... Your stuff Sounds really good yes!.... Keep at it my friend....
@@RobotUndergroundwhat even _is_ a paraflex enclosure??
Need help to fine recons for 4 AQHDC3 12" dual 1ohm
And I'm looking for a 15 dual 1
Text me direct - 6023126504
@@jkarageanes Text me direct - 6023126504
@@jkarageanes I'am looking for 4 12" recons v- style basket and i live in Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
what are your thoughts on DC audio?
Top notch brotha, if not the best. It's DC Audio lol. #ForTheWin
@@DEREKSHAUN I have a 12 inch level 4 now but was thinking of having a custom 15 built to go on my jp23 from down4sound
@@hooptastic_hippie8522 well maybe upgrade to a level 6. I got 4 of them and no sundown, Re or DD sound like them. Lol
@@DEREKSHAUN ya, those are like 1100-1200 each i cant swing that much for 1 sub or would have already
@@hooptastic_hippie8522 yea I know. I'm up in Canada, so they were over $1400 for one. Crazy price but so worth it. I had 2 Re Audio XXX 18s years back and those were great subs, I built a box for SQ and it hammered hard as well. But those level 6s do more than double power and hammer twice as much.
I just try to go with whatever sounds when making a slot port box, I always play around with my port depth until I find what sounds good.. a inch or two does make a big difference... dont always trust box caculators.. I trust my ears..
Good, because in the end, that's all that matters.
Agree and Disagree on this Topic. If you are looking for Just musical yes Ported and Sealed are the Way to go but for Competition nothing Beats Bandpass either 4th or 6th. im working on a 6th order design for a specific type of music using a Decent tc sounds 15" old school sub. let see how it plays later.
Again, anything you think you can do with a BP, you can do with a ported box in a smaller space.
The better question is: What are you trying to do in the first place?
Im gonna put two subs in sealed box with qts 0.8. But what about calculations fs/qes? In that way they would be better sealed than ported
Ported boxes will almost always sound better. Tell me the TSP's
Really appreciate your quick reply. Fs 29; qms 5.47; qes 0.57; qts 0.8; xmax 13.5mm. I have single 15” ported now, but built a box and going for dual 15” sealed.
Want to know how bandpass really works? Shoot me a line.
Both a 4th order bandpass and vented are 4th order acoustic alignments.
Also the cabin acts like a acoustic alignment aka you are bandpassing the alignment by rolling the windows down
Studied BP since the 90's. It's a sales gimmick
@@RobotUnderground I'm not quite sure what's the issue with them. I know how you feel about manufactures bullshitting the public. I hate it as well.
I don't perticularlly like 4th order bandpass I actually have a ported box loading off a built rear wall in my no wall setup that meters good sounds fine and has a bandwidth if one octave from 30 to 60. Reguardless it's not the best setup. Many people accomplish the same thing in different alignments. They all have flaws.
Robot your correct again!! BP is dogshit.... And correct there is no real 4th order or 6th order... That is an incorrect name that the inet invented...
@@sarahconner9433 the order refers to the slope of decay. They are infact 4 and 6th orders in slope
Joel.... Respectfully. .,..I'm a post PhD. E.E..... there are hundreds of millions of orders!! The orders you think you describe are mathematical differential equations, squaring solutions and cubing solutions.... However these enclosure do nothing related to that... All these BP BOXES do is kill db and total maximum output.... The cost of "extended" frequency response is high.... The"flat"" and "wider" response you claim is only because the entire frequency range is lower by,, 6db at "4th" order and -12db at your 6 th order.... Nothing is "gained"!!!! Horns are a "gain", amplifier power is a gain, bigger magnet is a gain... Your belief is incorrect about gain... Now if you want to say thier interesting.... Maybe??
I think it's interesting to watch a db meter while rolling car windows up and down... But that doesn't mean the box design is superior.... Or "gains" anything...
Hey man how can I get in contact with you, I have some 12s I want to get modified and I have some questions also
6023126504 Text only please
Back in the day 90’s I was a teen. I liked band passes cause you get “bass” from low/any amount of power. Luckily I learned that band passes covered up distortion and then you’d blow the speaker(s) them your SOL. so I was able to convince a few buddy’s early on to just go sealed. I still liked sealed but I made a box just out of my head it fit in my trunk just right and just by dumb luck the box tune was at 25hz and that is what I wanted since I paid my sub builder to make subs for that range. I ran my measurements thru a box builder online and it actually came to 25hz. I then had an actual box builder make me a box for my newer subs he tuned the port to 32hz and I really don’t much care for that tunning so I’m going to make that same box again I had solo X 18 motors on/in and put my new Adire Kalis 15’s that are better made for lows than solo X 18 motors.... I think 🤔🔊🔊. Box is just as important as the sub/driver/woofer
More videos like this one please
Is there anything specific you wanted to learn about or debunk?
The re box calculator is incorrect.
It's easy to use and works. That's all that matters. You don't really need the TSP's to design a good box.
A crappy or high performance 12" will always sound great in a 2-2.5cf box @ 32-35Hz.
I run 18 dB slope on my sub and 12 on my mids right now
As long as it sounds good. I do recommend higher cutoff frequencies as well. 120-150hz.
@@RobotUnderground Definitely I’m using 180-220 right now while I’m still using some stock mids. I can’t stand distortion I’m constantly changing things to keep it sounding good. But I know it’s good when random people come tell me it sounds super clear and clean outside vehicle and then ask what I have and I’m like right now stock mids a old 12 alpine that sat outside a buddies house for months in the weather with no dust cap I took and fixed up and a box I modified from something else real quick with some aero ports and a head unit I payed 14 bucks for online that should of been 100 and an used kicker cx600 amp. And they start laughing and think I’m funny and I say I’m serious... you don’t have to spend 1000 bucks to have good sound and rattle some windows you just have to understand how to tune and hear distortion. And doing it for 20 years for all your buddies too.
I'm not trying to get mean but you don't understand this enought to make a video.
Not one rockford car nor sealed box has a world record.
When you get 2 18s sealed to do 158 cone let me know. I'm not getting into this right now but I'll be glad to link articles for people to understand acoustic alignments.
Simply put the act like crossovers but acoustically.
The port IS another driver. The air mass inside the port US the diaphram
hm. I watched local SPL hero Scott Owens be the first person to break 180db with 13x Pioneer SPL subs in sealed boxes. Then he did it again with 8 of those same subs in ported boxes. - SPL is dumb and a waste of time and energy.. You don't need a trophy to prove your value or up your self esteem. Try doing something kind for someone else. That's what improves self esteem.
@@RobotUnderground yea and 1 18" woofer is doing 181. Point is the poor efficiency from seal enclosures presents alot of issues.
2nd order sealed has a much more shallow roll off and highly depends on displacement of one acoustic waveform.
4th other has compounding/ compression affects alot like loading affects that increase efficiency substantially as well as power handling.
Your are correct about the decay and the orders but to say they Are junk is complete trash. Why are they bad?
That's like saying don't use crossovers on your speakers. Vented has a ton of downfalls as well. It's 4th order alignment just like a 4th order bandpass.
Phase shifts and group delay and troublesome in higher order alignments where the front and rear wave are present in the athomsphere it's takes calculation and Propped placement.
@@papermaker85 None of those issues really matter in real life. The bass either plays low or it don't. Anything out of phase just causes minor issues. Most guys don't hear the differences.
@@RobotUnderground I'm just not understanding why you think they are bad.
@@papermaker85 Well which do you prefer?? Passive or active crossovers? Science would point to active but many people still prefer passive crossovers. Passives aren't bad, but they are a waste of time and space compared to active types.
I was just looking at that rf calculator last Friday
I'll assume you're a vendor? Anywhere i can see the inventory you have?
We help people acquire things. Just text me and let me know what you're looking for, 6023126504
what's the link to that website?
rockfordfosgate.com/support/box-wizard/
web.archive.org/web/20070216022836/www.tcsounds.com/tc5200.htm
reaudio.com/box.php
What's it's like to know literally NOTHING about enclosures?
😆
Promote your basic business here por favor. Let's hear how cool and tough you are.
@@RobotUnderground If someone is here to learn anything, they're already too far gone.
His fingers in the camera the whole time. Lol
@@redman4076 Yep. Love your comment and then later want subs.
Butterworth
Holy shit .159 Qts that was a strong motor i wonder what the BL ^2/RE was .
I think he mentions it there in the notes. Tesla Meter squared, of 480 or 410nm2
Love this and all you do...
F-em.
I want two sealed 18s in the back seat area of my 92 Cadillac DeVille.
Thank you for being you
Love your attitude.
Here I am impressed by great bass in a sealed enclosure 😆🤣
I hear you. Just make sure the sub has good air space and a low Fs.
damn that means hexibase must be wrong and so is my dd608 ina 6th playing 22-58hz +-1.2db doing 139.8db @25hz and 138.7@45hz (note my front stage crosses over at 40hz) using a bandpass box is the best way to get a wide bandwidth out of small drivers the only sub i have seen that doesnt need one is a jl w7 8 in a large low tuned ported box that plays flat from 22 and up. "ported and sealed is all you need" "anything you can do in a bandpass box you can do with a ported box" HAHAHA just no. you can get the same bandwidth out of a sealed box but you will loose so much output (although being smaller) compared to a 6th. every enclosure has its place. from what you have said that means everyone with 4th or 6th order wall builds should have just done a flat wall lol clown thought you would have atleast looked in winisd or bassboxpro like jeez.
who needs efficiency
@@666Necropsy anyone with half a brain cell.
You can do the same thing with a ported box. You just port higher.
@@RobotUnderground but i want lower and a wide bandwith??!? so you cant do the same thing then.
@@redman4076 knowledgeable this guy gets ripped apart in car audio groups no one listens to his dumbass
not only the loudest SPL cars on the planet use bandpass, but also the loudest daily music cars, i would delete the video if i were u lol
Loud does not mean USEFUL
@@RobotUnderground my 4th order plays 15hz - 70hz strong as hell, 25hz to 55hz it only has a 1db difference, you are a noob lol
@@JavierDuque lol. Then you'd know that you could have done the same thing in a ported box in less space.
@@RobotUnderground what could I expect from someone that uses the re calculator lol
@@JavierDuque Yes, it's super terrible. Doesn't work at all. Totally wrong.
Unless your setting world record spl numbers. I'm sure Alan Dante uses a flat wall to achieve 185db lol.
I think "181.7" db points?... Since no one is allowed to independently db meter his system.... Know one really knows the actual db level.. But I'm sure it's way lower.....
Keep these vids coming 👌🏻 also you should do comedy ur hilarious 👍🏻
So a ported enclosure will give me the same output as my 6th order?
over a MUCH WIDER PASS BAND as well. yes. You can make a ported box super peaky like a 6th order, yes if that's what you want.
@@RobotUnderground should go back to my slot vs 6th order? I feel like my 6th order is louder in output.
@@anubisprince36 I'm sure it's louder at certain frequencies. You can do the same thing with an EQ or tune the ported box higher.
I needed to know too lol because for the sake of sentimental value I was planning on recreating the 6th order bandpass box my dad got made back in the 2002 for those rockford power HX2s. But I'm still not familiar with 6th order bandpass I remembered how it sounded a little bit but over the years the spider started sagging so I guess it wasn't sounding like it used to. There just sitting there and trying to find someone to recone
@@mallorycainjr.1921 You always do better with a fresh start. The past doesn't exist.
FUCKING LOVE THE EPICENTER COMMENT.
The brand is good and it had a purpose at a time when even Rap music didn't hit lows. Not like today with many artist making tracks in the sub bass range or just grab some Jeezy. Back then that wasn't really a thing. We are talking EARLY 90's. Eazy E Eazy Duz It Kid Rock Grits Sandwiches for Breakfast, NWA Straight Outta Compton, bout the only thing that might hit was Miami Bass, 2 Live Crew As Nasty As they Wanna Be.
Yeah yeah I'm showing my age
Put her in the Buck young man.
It was dirty nursery rhymes for my buddy that owned it. I had kid rock from my slightly older sister, hell I was only about 9 at the time myself, and I found eazy duz it walking home.
Some of the tape was out, but after winding it back up all was well. I traded something for NWA.
That was still the time when you could buy those as a little kid, I don't know if it was before the stickers , I think during. but those didn't matter because for a while no one paid attention. They thought it was art work 😂 then the stickers just increased sales 🤣
I still know every word to Boyz n the hood, but don't quote me boy, I ain't said shit.
Oh, and with DSPs, IF someone was knowledgeable enough and purchased a FAST DSP chip ( I have a model noted cause I was tempted to try it), you could make the product that the Epicenter wanted to be, but the tech was no where even close to being in sight during that things inception.
My idea was a device that would essentially take any frequencies within a range and reduce them by X octave in real time. Fully user configurable set by a phone over Bluetooth because you can just chat GPT the shit out of that portion. All the DSP logic you're in your own though, even with the studio dev software it wouldn't be easy. I said no because of the software cost to get in. Dev boards are on the high side too, but no individual license on the most maintenance stuff so fuck them. Fucking dinosaurs and their closed source, rape you in the ass prices. They can join Kmart one day but in the meantime I'm not funding ignorance.
Thank you 4th order it's not...call it what it is lol
Bandpass is bandpass. 4th order is a ported box.
Plenty of people out there doing 60s over wide ranges with incredibly flat response.
And plenty doing it with ported boxes in less space.
@@RobotUnderground With way less bandwidth. Ain't no ported walls playing 15-60 like a bandpass can. Just because a ported box can play it doesn't mean its up to snuff when it comes to a bandpass. Look up the Iron Law.
Plus a lot of people don't really like how flat walls perform. Myself ive had over 5 flat walls over the years, all my bandpasses crush them. Plus they have a different sound to them. Even my worst bandpass build was better than my ported walls
@@sparco317 The shape of the enclosure doesn't matter since air is a fluid. Ported boxes though are the most efficient and effective in both SPL and daily.
@@sparco317 lol. A ported box has no low pass filter like a bandpass does. Tell me again, how a BP has more passband??? It's in the fu%ing name bro, BANDPASS. Ported box plays down to it's tuned frequency and then all the way up until you cross it off with the amp or a crossover. 2, sometimes 3 octaves. PA drivers go all the way up to 1k! 20Hz to 1k is almost 6 OCTAVES!
😂😂😂 this is ridiculous. As a bunch of people have already said, all of the loudest boxes with the larges bandwidth at all of the shows are 4th and 6th order enclosures. In order to make a ported enclosure that loud, you have to make it crazy peaky. It's only gonna play one note. But a bandpass box can be that loud and still have bandwidth.
Just because you dont like sound competition, doesnt make it pointless or a waste of time and money. If that's the case, you have to say that about ALL hobbies. You are very much generalizing something that is extremely situation and application dependent.
But in the end, this is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I do enjoy most of your vids, keep doing your thing!
Check out the link I added in the description. That guy is boring but he does a way better job at explaining.
Enjoy your content...I bet in 35 years I've build 20 band pass boxes...out of the 10 thousand boxes I've built....IMO in bandpass you trying to over think your box....90% of what I do is ported...program I use is from like 92...its just to do the math.....
overthink your box?!?!?!? what is wrong with you.
That's because your box building software is not compatible with proper 6th order designs
Loud your right....
This is also the same guy who thinks 14 is old enough for a kid to consent so I wouldn’t take this very seriously lol
You are grossly simplifying acoustics. Typical car audio guy! You’re standing on a soap box spitting gross inaccuracies. 18” sub in a 3 cube box? Why? If you’re building an spl box tuned super high, I agree but if you’re hoping to hit 20hz. Good luck.
he is. if you start looking at what the majority of people know in the hobby its very little. i think there is a place for the over simplified approach. there are guys having a conversation about trying to get every little bit of performance out of something for a competition or specific use case, then a guy who has no clue reads that and thinks that is what he has to do. most people will be better off sticking to some basics. then experiment. bass is really simple. now filling in the rest of the range with that same quality is a better challenge.
20hz is a waste of time and energy. The job of 40Hz and under, is better done by a Dayton / Aura Bass Shaker instead.
@@RobotUnderground how much music is in the sub 30hz range anyway?
@@666Necropsy Actually quite a bit. Below that is mostly explosions in movies but using a tactile transducer is much more effective at 50 or 100w than most subs.
I used to be a JL fanboy, until you appeared...
oh shit im hella early lol ..and ive already been binge watching!
I dont why people be hating on sealed boxes ,if they are built right theyll sound great.. they can punch hard and have decent lows if done correctly.. again trial and error experiments is what it's all about to be able to find what sounds good
Well people always want more.
So the bandwidth of a properly tuned 6th is garbage compared to a regular ported or sealed box? Sounds like you need some education yourself🤷♂️🤦♂️
That's not what I said. I said, "Whatever you think you can do in BP, you can do in a ported box in less space".
Can you play 15-55 hz close to the same level of output in a ported box
I'll give you the space factor though I started using bandpass more over the last 3 years without needing alot of power the output in a 6th is way better than any normal ported but if space is a factor you are correct and bandpass wouldn't be in the factor anyway but with that said I've gotten output from 1 that was louder than 2 in another box but built by another builder
@@tankv99 To get the kind of sensitivity that a BP gives, you simply change the tuning freqency of the ported box and it will match or be even better. So say your 6th order has a big hump at 50Hz. Just tune the ported box to 50Hz and it'll do the same or better.
@@tankv99 Again, it's all in how you tune both boxes actually. All subs can play that low but it depends on the moving mass and how much excursion and power it can use.
Honestly, who cares about bandpass. I'm interested in learning about the physical characteristics of the universe. How do I learn about that lol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos:_A_Spacetime_Odyssey
Another great vid Brother.
The only thing you missed was telling kids to get off your lawn.
I speak with actions. Got the garden hose ready for them, sales people and the missionaries
hilarious, you literally know nothing about how enclosures work
Awe. Look at you trying to troll isn't that cute.
Infinite baffle master race